18Neb/18Ardennes playtests

[John A. Tamplin]

Did anyone have a chance to play them at Portland?  I got in three 18Neb and one 18Ardennes games at Oasis of Fun -- report below:

18Neb

• The first two games, none of the local railways opened.  At the point they could be started, they would only be able to buy a 2 or 3, and the game would end by the time they could get a 4.  Without being able to run E-W, they simply weren't competitive with other companies.  A company with two permanent trains each with E-W runs is going to get around $90/share, a company with a 4D is going to get in the $50s, and other companies are going to get in the $30s.  Even counting the double income per certificate, running a 2 train for $12 for a few turns just isn't comparable (and if they buy a 3 up front they won't get a 4 in time to run it).
  The third game, we tried letting them start with a 2 train and in that case they were able to get a couple of ORs out of a 4+4 (plus didn't go back the first time) and were better than the weak companies but still not as good as the best.  I think that is probably the right mix, so I suggest this change.  That way it gives players a reason to change their stock holding rather than just hold onto what they have.
  
• In the first game we had a player go bankrupt (he could have avoided it by shuffling a train twice and then issuing stock in the stock round, but he felt he would be totally out of it and preferred to go bankrupt and play something else.  Two things from this:  1) I think the tokens from dissolved companies should stay on the board, as at that point every remaining company had easy times getting two E-W runs from permanent trains, and 2) the certificate limit needs to reflect the closure of companies from bankruptcy.
  
• CNW seems just right with the reduction of the river cost and the ability to bypass O'Neil.  It was started in the first round each time, and that player finished 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in the three games so it seems neither overly strong or overly weak.  In one of the games, it was able to arrange EW runs with just a 3 train (Chicago-Valentine-Powder River), and that does seem a significant advantage in the mid-game over the others which find that nearly impossible.  In the other games, the opposing players ensured that was not possible until brown upgrades, so I don't think that is particularly unbalancing.
  
• I tried starting one company at $100 in one game and two at $70 in another, and each was competitive (I wound up with 3 companies in the latter [a 3-player game], though I only got 4 permanent trains between them while in the former case I had two permanent trains on each of two companies), so I think low vs high is a viable strategic choice.
• There was a bit of a stall on the last 4 in each game, as nobody wanted to buy it without being able to buy the first 5 (perhaps in their next company).  Perhaps we should add more trains and include 1844's "aliens stealing trains" rule.
• The only other tweak I might make is make the bank a tad bigger.  In each game, the first 4D got to run exactly 3 times.  That makes it not worthwhile to arrange to get an extra 4D if you didn't have the money/stock to do so before they become available.  The last ORs the bank was draining around $3500/OR (a bit more in the 3rd game where both locals were started), so adding $2-3k to the bank might make splitting to get a 4D a viable choice by giving an extra OR on average.

18Ardennes

• We played one 4-player game of 18Ardennes, and the initial auction went smoothly and the two players who had played it before both felt it was a vast improvement over earlier auction mechanics.  We never got to the point of anyone having enough money to dominate the auction and nobody paid enough to need rounds of adding money, though I do prefer the idea of giving all players additional money in that case rather than putting it on the things to be auctioned -- it simplifies the rules (BTW, the premium concept in the auction rules now seems misplaced) and gives the player with enough money to buy it incentive to do so rather than wait for an absurd bargain.
• The TEE routes were confusing.  One issue is I think there needs to be some indication on the map of which cities qualify for which endpoints, and the other issue that wasn't clear was regarding port/ferry cities -- if another company has a token there, can you get a TEE bonus or not?
• The various bonus tokens seemed appropriately powerful -- enough to give incentive to track development, but not so great as you couldn't afford to ignore them if you had a more pressing strategic goal.
• We got EW runs easily, but never a single NS run.  Perhaps it was just the way track/tokens were laid in Belgium, but no single company had a route all the way through.
• We called the game before finishing it completely so I can't comment on the bank size given the payouts of the last few ORs, but the pace of the game seemed good.
• There was a bit of a stall around the last 3, but of course it didn't last as long since the amounts involved were lower.  If other games saw something similar, perhaps 1844's rule could be applied here as well.

Overall, all players involved liked both games and felt they needed only minor tweaks.

-- 
John A. Tamplin					j...@deepthoughtgames.com
Deep Thought Games, LLC				4116 Manson Ave	
770/436-5387 HOME    		 		Smyrna, GA  30082-3723

[David G.D. Hecht]

Personally played in four 18Ardennes games and there were another couple that I did not play in (Jeff Heuer brought a second complete game). There was, alas, no 18NEB at the con so didn't play any of that.

 

My observations:

 

1. In the game I played with players who either had played at least once or were quick studies, the game took about 4-5 hours. The others were more like 6-7. I take this to signify that the game will work itself down to a 4-hour game by the time we're done learning it.

2. We had several instances where players were under f.100 and there were one or more companies in the pool. However with the auction rules extending into that segment of the initial auction, there were no real bargains--I believe the lowerst any minor ever went for was f.70. BTW it looks like 3.2.1 paragraph 2 snuck back in after being deleted (don't ask me how), confirming your intuition.

3. I have done a little map tweaking to try and make the relevant cities for E-W/N-S more obvious. I'll drop off the result in the usual spot.

4. We found that in most games NS was much easier than EW: EW is too easy to block (plus you have to have the ferry rights: I'll need to make this clearer, apparently) whereas for NS there's the obvious, direct routes, and also the back door (Basel to the Ruhr) ones. We had one game where there were no cities blocking a Paris to the Ruhr route: Paris-Reims-Charleville-Liege-Maastricht-Moenchengladbach-Ruhr.

5. Bank size is about right: making the bonus tokens drop off after the 4D is bought simply prolongs the game another set of ORs.

6. I'm amazed you had any sort of stall around the 3-trains. In every game I played in, the 3Ts flew off the shelf: most were bought in OR-3/4, and the last were hoovered up by the minors in OR-5. The majors (having started in the SR between OR-4 and OR-5) broke into the 4-trains and often into the 5-trains. What happened next varied wildly: in one game, all remaining minors merged and there weren't enough train slots to make the 6-trains come out, while in another, every company ended with a 4T or 5T and a 4D as well. Bottom lone: I see no need for a "foreigners steal trains" rule.

----- Original Message -----

From: John A. Tamplin

To: dtg-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:06 AM

Subject: [dtg-proto] 18Neb/18Ardennes playtests

Did anyone have a chance to play them at Portland?  I got in three 18Neb and one 18Ardennes games at Oasis of Fun -- report below:

<snip>

[John A. Tamplin]

David G.D. Hecht wrote:

1. In the game I played with players who either had played at least once or were quick studies, the game took about 4-5 hours. The others were more like 6-7. I take this to signify that the game will work itself down to a 4-hour game by the time we're done learning it.

We took about 4.5 hours and there were probably another full set of ORs when we called it (one player had to drive 3 hours home and it was midnight already) -- that was teaching two players who hadn't played it before but had some 18EU/26 experience.  I agree with experienced players it should be 4-4.5 hours.

3. I have done a little map tweaking to try and make the relevant cities for E-W/N-S more obvious. I'll drop off the result in the usual spot.

I think putting a "W" tag off the ferry arrow itself would make it clear you have to run past the corresponding town to get the bonus.

Speaking of map changes, I think the background of France and Germany needs to be different colors for the two different area of operations in each.

[Mark Geary]

I played one 4-player game of 18Ardennes. I think our game lasted
about 6 hours.

I had minors 1, 2, 3, and 11. 1 and 2 merged, and 3 and 11 merged.

Two players ignored the ferries--perhaps they did not realize they
were necessary for EW runs. One player tokened a ferry, but never
used it--his NS run was better. I tokened Vlissingen, and later
Dunkerque and ran to Cologne.
Only one company had a NS run. There was a lot of track running east
and west in the middle of the board, making it difficult to build
north to south bypasses of cities.

I had the plurality of 3 and 4 trains and ran them for a long time. I
did not notice why the 6s were slow to come out, I was busy making
money. I ended the game with a 5-share company running two 4s and a
10-share company running a 6 and a 4D.

The map is quite attractive.

BTW, if I'm reading them right, in rules version 0.2.23, the "Can
Form" column of table 12.3 appears inconsistent with the "Eligible
Minors" column of table 12.4.

Mark Geary

[David G.D. Hecht]

----- Original Message -----

From: John A. Tamplin

To: dtg-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 1:57 AM

Subject: [dtg-proto] Re: 18Neb/18Ardennes playtests

David G.D. Hecht wrote:

1. In the game I played with players who either had played at least once or were quick studies, the game took about 4-5 hours. The others were more like 6-7. I take this to signify that the game will work itself down to a 4-hour game by the time we're done learning it.

We took about 4.5 hours and there were probably another full set of ORs when we called it (one player had to drive 3 hours home and it was midnight already) -- that was teaching two players who hadn't played it before but had some 18EU/26 experience.  I agree with experienced players it should be 4-4.5 hours.

3. I have done a little map tweaking to try and make the relevant cities for E-W/N-S more obvious. I'll drop off the result in the usual spot.

I think putting a "W" tag off the ferry arrow itself would make it clear you have to run past the corresponding town to get the bonus.

 

(DH) I was going to do that on each edge. along with putting a colored outline on the mapedge itself.

Speaking of map changes, I think the background of France and Germany needs to be different colors for the two different area of operations in each.

(DH) My suggestion was going to be that we color the remaining city circles, either entirely, or with a small box inside, possibly containing a letter or two.

[David G.D. Hecht]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Geary" <ge...@acm.org>
To: <dtg-...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 2:52 AM
Subject: [dtg-proto] Re: 18Neb/18Ardennes playtests

>

Thanx Mark. Tried to get them to line up but could easily have messed up.