[18West] UP's train question

[MIYANISHI Yuji]

Hi. I have a question about the rule of 18West.

Which 6 or 4D should auto-pilot UP buy at the emergency after the 1st
6-train?

[David G.D. Hecht]

That question would probably have been more germane earlier in the process,
when the 6/8S difference was $200. With the 6/4D difference at $500, it
seems unlikely to matter.

However, to answer the question you asked, if after buying afirst permanent
train (presumably a 6-train) the UP operated in such a manner as to continue
to accumulate capital, a literal reading of the rules requires it to buy a
second permanent train as soon as it has enough capital to do so. So unless
it goes from under $600 to $1100 or more in one OR, it will always be a
6-train.

In the games I have seen where UP does not get opened before permanent
trains are out, it generally has to liquidate most or all of its Treasury
stock to buy a permanent train (which is usually a 6-train). So the question
doesn't arise, since it has no further source of income. Besides, once it
has a 6-train (with a bit of help from the Bank) people aren't so reluctant
to take charge of it! :-)

[Chris Shaffer]

Hope I'm not stepping on toes to (I think) clarify the question.

If a player buys a 6 train, and the UP has only a 3 train which rusts, resulting in the UP requiring an emergency fund raising to buy a train, may the UP buy a 4D, or is it forced to buy a 6?

The train rush must have been fast and furious to result in this occurrence.

Chris

[John A. Tamplin]

David G.D. Hecht wrote:
>> Hi. I have a question about the rule of 18West.
>>
>> Which 6 or 4D should auto-pilot UP buy at the emergency after the 1st
>> 6-train?
>>

> However, to answer the question you asked, if after buying afirst permanent
> train (presumably a 6-train) the UP operated in such a manner as to continue
> to accumulate capital, a literal reading of the rules requires it to buy a
> second permanent train as soon as it has enough capital to do so. So unless
> it goes from under $600 to $1100 or more in one OR, it will always be a
> 6-train.
>

I believe the question is if it doesn't have a train and there is no
president but could afford either a 6 or 4D (depending on how much stock
is sold), which does it buy? I would suggest saying it must buy the
cheapest is the safest case while under autopilot.

--
John A. Tamplin j...@deepthoughtgames.com
Deep Thought Games, LLC 4116 Manson Ave
770/436-5387 HOME Smyrna, GA 30082-3723

[Chris Shaffer]

I believe the question is if it doesn't have a train and there is no
president but could afford either a 6 or 4D (depending on how much stock
is sold), which does it buy?  I would suggest saying it must buy the
cheapest is the safest case while under autopilot.

Also, would the answer change if there isn't enough after selling stock to buy either a 6 or a 4D train?  i.e. if the bank is already contributing toward the cost of the train, will it kick in the extra funds for a 4D?

--
Chris

Keep the flying car. I want the future where "resurrection" is a medical specialty.

[David G.D. Hecht]

If it has enough to buy a 4D without help, then it would do so. If it has to do an emergency fund raising for even a 6-train, the bank won't pay extra.

 

Actually, I found this scenario to be the norm. In the games I've played, the UP either buys the last 3-train at the bottom of OR-4, or just misses it and is then forced into an emergency money raising to buy a 4-train in OR-5. The 6-trains then come out in OR-6 or maybe OR-7, and then it's just a matter of time before someone pulls the trigger on the 8S.

 

In the new dispensation, it may be harder to blow up the 4-trains, so the UP may get another day of life before having to buy a permanent train.

[David G.D. Hecht]

----- Original Message -----
From: "John A. Tamplin" <j...@deepthoughtgames.com>
To: <dtg-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 8:44 AM
Subject: [dtg-proto] Re: [18West] UP's train question

>
> David G.D. Hecht wrote:
>>> Hi. I have a question about the rule of 18West.
>>>
>>> Which 6 or 4D should auto-pilot UP buy at the emergency after the 1st
>>> 6-train?
>>>
>> However, to answer the question you asked, if after buying afirst
>> permanent
>> train (presumably a 6-train) the UP operated in such a manner as to
>> continue
>> to accumulate capital, a literal reading of the rules requires it to buy
>> a
>> second permanent train as soon as it has enough capital to do so. So
>> unless
>> it goes from under $600 to $1100 or more in one OR, it will always be a
>> 6-train.
>>
> I believe the question is if it doesn't have a train and there is no
> president but could afford either a 6 or 4D (depending on how much stock
> is sold), which does it buy? I would suggest saying it must buy the
> cheapest is the safest case while under autopilot.
>

Actually, I'm inclined to allow it to buy a 4D if it can: but it will never
be able to, IMHO.

[David G.D. Hecht]

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris Shaffer

To: dtg-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 8:46 AM

Subject: [dtg-proto] Re: [18West] UP's train question

I believe the question is if it doesn't have a train and there is no
president but could afford either a 6 or 4D (depending on how much stock
is sold), which does it buy?  I would suggest saying it must buy the
cheapest is the safest case while under autopilot.

Also, would the answer change if there isn't enough after selling stock to buy either a 6 or a 4D train?  i.e. if the bank is already contributing toward the cost of the train, will it kick in the extra funds for a 4D?

 

(DH) That part is easy: no.

[John A. Tamplin]

David G.D. Hecht wrote:
> If it has enough to buy a 4D without help, then it would do so. If it
> has to do an emergency fund raising for even a 6-train, the bank won't
> pay extra.

I dislike the special-case language which will have to be put in the
rules to distinguish this case. If you aren't careful, someone will use
it to say the UP should buy two 3s or the last 4 and first 5 if it can
do so by selling stock. It seems cleaner to say the UP on autopilot
will sell its stock and receive money (in that order) from the bank only
to afford the cheapest new train from the bank if it has no train.

[David G.D. Hecht]

----- Original Message -----
From: "John A. Tamplin" <j...@deepthoughtgames.com>
To: <dtg-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 8:59 AM
Subject: [dtg-proto] Re: [18West] UP's train question

>

> David G.D. Hecht wrote:
>> If it has enough to buy a 4D without help, then it would do so. If it
>> has to do an emergency fund raising for even a 6-train, the bank won't
>> pay extra.
> I dislike the special-case language which will have to be put in the
> rules to distinguish this case. If you aren't careful, someone will use
> it to say the UP should buy two 3s or the last 4 and first 5 if it can
> do so by selling stock. It seems cleaner to say the UP on autopilot
> will sell its stock and receive money (in that order) from the bank only
> to afford the cheapest new train from the bank if it has no train.
>

True. But even now it is supposed to buy the last of the old and the first
of the new if it can. In fact there is an argument for precisely that--the
UP should buy the last 4 and the first 5. I mean--any rational player would,
woudn't they?

I suspect most of this is pretty academic anyhow. I've never seen the
circumstances come up either for that (last 4/first 5) or where it could
afford to by even an 8S vice a 6. But I will clarify the rules anyhow, since
it could come up some day.

[David G.D. Hecht]

----- Original Message -----
From: "John A. Tamplin" <j...@deepthoughtgames.com>

To: <dtg-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 8:44 AM

Subject: [dtg-proto] Re: [18West] UP's train question

>
> David G.D. Hecht wrote:
>>> Hi. I have a question about the rule of 18West.
>>>
>>> Which 6 or 4D should auto-pilot UP buy at the emergency after the 1st
>>> 6-train?
>>>
>> However, to answer the question you asked, if after buying afirst
>> permanent
>> train (presumably a 6-train) the UP operated in such a manner as to
>> continue
>> to accumulate capital, a literal reading of the rules requires it to buy
>> a
>> second permanent train as soon as it has enough capital to do so. So
>> unless
>> it goes from under $600 to $1100 or more in one OR, it will always be a
>> 6-train.
>>
> I believe the question is if it doesn't have a train and there is no
> president but could afford either a 6 or 4D (depending on how much stock
> is sold), which does it buy? I would suggest saying it must buy the
> cheapest is the safest case while under autopilot.
>

I did think of an interesting (albeit highly theoretical!) way this could
happen:

- UP runs for enough to buy a 4-train with minimal or no stock sales.
- Another company buys the first 6-train.
- UP runs for not quite enough to buy a 6-train in the second of two ORs.
- During the ensuing SR, there is no longer a restriction on buying the UP
Treasury stock. Players buy out all five Treasury shares, at a value ($110
or greater) sufficient to give the UP enough money for a 4D.
- In the next OR, UP now has enough money to buy a 4D train and does so.

Of course, all of this requires that no one buy a second share and thus
become President--which is why it falls into the category of "Steve Thomas
18xx Puzzles" rather than a real issue...

[Maisn...@aol.com]

David Hecht wrote:

Of course, all of this requires that no one buy a second share and thus
become President--which is why it falls into the category of "Steve Thomas
18xx Puzzles" rather than a real issue...

It's a real issue in the sense that since players can legally get themselves into this situation, the rules need to specify what they are then permitted to do.  I concede that it's somewhere between hard and impossible to see how players trying to win might get here, and hence the matter is of rather low priority.

FWIW, I would favour a rule whereby UP buys the best available train from cash on hand, or the cheapest available train if it's in emergency money-raising.  In practice this would mean buying a 6 unless the game had gone very strangely.

Steve Thomas        maisnestce@a...

[David G.D. Hecht]

----- Original Message -----

From: Maisn...@aol.com

To: dtg-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 10:12 AM

Subject: [dtg-proto] Re: [18West] UP's train question

David Hecht wrote:

Of course, all of this requires that no one buy a second share and thus
become President--which is why it falls into the category of "Steve Thomas
18xx Puzzles" rather than a real issue...

It's a real issue in the sense that since players can legally get themselves into this situation, the rules need to specify what they are then permitted to do.  I concede that it's somewhere between hard and impossible to see how players trying to win might get here, and hence the matter is of rather low priority.

 

(DH) Sure, Steve: and it's legally possible for e.g., the Etat to inherit eight loans. "Legal but improbable, with a big dash of perverse behavior required" is the very definition of a "Steve Thomas 18xx Puzzle".

FWIW, I would favour a rule whereby UP buys the best available train from cash on hand, or the cheapest available train if it's in emergency money-raising.  In practice this would mean buying a 6 unless the game had gone very strangely.

(DH) And that is how I propose to solve the dilemma:

 

"If the UP has a choice between a 6-train and a 4D, it only buys the 4D if it can do so without performing an emergency money raising or selling stock."

[Maisn...@aol.com]

David Hecht wrote:

(DH) Sure, Steve: and it's legally possible for e.g., the Etat to inherit eight loans. "Legal but improbable, with a big dash of perverse behavior required" is the very definition of a "Steve Thomas 18xx Puzzle".

Are you characterising me as legal, improbable, and perverse?  I'll have you know I exist with an a posteriori probability of 1!

"

If the UP has a choice between a 6-train and a 4D, it only buys the 4D if it can do so without performing an emergency money raising or selling stock."

I prefer "If the UP has a choice between a 6-train and a 4D, it buys the 4D if and only if it can do so without performing an emergency money raising or selling stock."  With the other formulation, a trainless UP with sufficient funds on hand for a 6 and a 4D (and I concede we're moving to another order of improbability here) would only buy the one train.

Steve Thomas        maisnestce@a...

[David G.D. Hecht]

:-)

 

Points taken! :-)

----- Original Message -----

From: Maisn...@aol.com

To: dtg-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 2:14 PM

Subject: [dtg-proto] Re: [18West] UP's train question