[dorkbotpdx-blabber] RIP Norvac?

[Brad Burleson]

Hey all-

So the end is near for Norvac: The Eugene store is starting to
liquidate it's stock from Feb 15 thru March 17th.

Supposedly the Salem and Portland stores will follow.

Bummer eh?

Brad.
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[Eric Garner]

I can't say that it surprises me. norvac has been going down hill for
at least 10 years now. their shelves are more for " out of stock" tags
than for actual stuff.

i will miss them though, back in they heyday i used to depend on
norvac and radar for all my parts needs.

--
--Eric
_________________________________________
Eric Garner

[Blain C]

The guy at the beaverton norvac said they will most likely be selling stock by the pound starting this summer. I'm thinkin' I might have to save up some cash by then. :P

[Julie Baumler]

Well, since I was blocks from the Eugene Norvac when I got the first
email, I decided to pop in and find out what is up (and buy an
overpriced red heart-shaped board, don't tell my sweetie!) They were
surprised that I had heard, however, in Eugene at least, it sounds
like it will be more a case of "Norvac is dead, long live Norvac."

Julie

[Jason Plumb]

On 02/06/2012 03:10 PM, Brad Burleson wrote:
> So the end is near for Norvac: The Eugene store is starting to
> liquidate it's stock from Feb 15 thru March 17th.
> Supposedly the Salem and Portland stores will follow.

Yes, indeed when I was in there a week ago from last Sat the shelves
were quite bare. There was one employee working, and she was commuting
from Salem on a Saturday.

> Bummer eh?

Bummer indeed. Radio Shack is almost worthless (tho maybe there's a
glimmer of hope with the kit crap they've been picking up), Norvac
dying, Wacky Willys is zombified....

...if only we had some kind of parts order....<wink wink nudge nudge>

-jason
ps. This is not top posting.

[Doug Ausmus]

When I chatted with Norvac a month or so ago, I asked something like, " Why aren't you carrying such and such anymore?". Answer: "We are only adding inventory to stuff that people are buying... if you buy it, we will add it".

IMHO- management has made some disastrous decisions and failed to recognize what was attractive to Norvac, losing their dedicated customer base in the process. Many companies have been doing this same thing in response to the economy, with similar results.

At one establishment when I discussed this with their management, they replied they were reducing their offerings to only the top-selling ones. Slippery-slope: if this philosophy was a good one, then eventually they theoretically could reduce their offerings to only one item.. but the attraction to their store would likely be gone. Woops.

Hard to say, but I wonder what would've happened if Norvac had gone counter-intuitively and taken their money a few years ago and went out and bought out failing-producer inventory and added MORE random excess and used stuff to their offerings each month? I know I would've been there every month to paw through their stuff, especially when I needed some obscure or obsolete part. Knowing me, I would've ended up buying stuff everytime, whether I needed it or not, just to play around with something cool.

Sad-
Doug

[Blain C]

Well... A month ago the owner had probably already decided to sell, so instead if continuing to buy parts that no one wanted, he decided to only stock the popular ones, and do everything else order-only. They were out of the uln2803 darlington arrays that I needed, but ordered them for me with no obligation to buy them when they got there. That's actually a pretty good idea, if you're going out of business. The less stock you have to liquidate, the less money you lose doing so.

[Archturiat Baumann]

On Feb 7, 2012, at 10:00 AM, Doug Ausmus wrote:

> IMHO- management has made some disastrous decisions and failed to recognize what was attractive to Norvac, losing their dedicated customer base in the process. Many companies have been doing this same thing in response to the economy, with similar results.

Not sure it's "just an economy" thing.

We live in a time where everything can be mail-ordered for a fairly low cost and shipped to us in 24 hours. It's almost impossible for a small electronics parts store to stock even a single digit percentage of the DigiKey and Mouser catalogs. Add to that the fact that keeping the inventory fresh would require an almost obsessive attention to detail. Add to that the fact that stores like Norvac are.. guess what? .. often ordering from the same places: Mouser especially is one of the go-to distributors for many small parts houses.

And this is where I have to come to the defense of RadioShack. They have in some cases INCREASED their parts inventory over the past ten years in some stores, and yet nobody seems happy. Part of that might be that, again, it's only possible to stock a certain quantity of parts in a store on the HOPES that somebody buys them, and you have to guess what parts people want, because there's only so much square footage.

I haven't even touched the difficulty of inventorying and packing for display small quantities of SMD components. You want 30 100 ohm chip resistors? The packaging would weigh more than the components.

Point is, the retail point-of-sale outlook for electronics parts is grim. I know for myself the only thing close to a "retail parts house" I've spent any significant time in is Surplus Gizmos. Just about every other parts purchase has been made via one of the mail order houses. And why not? From DigiKey or Mouser, I can get the EXACT part, in the package and specs I need, not just a "nearly suitable" part.. and I'll have it tomorrow. The combination of the inventory available and the convenience of knowing I'm getting the exact part is just too good a combination.

We don't live in the electronics world of the 1950's anymore, where every single AM radio used the same damn five tubes, and a hobbyist's likely needs could be met by maybe 1,000 discretes that stayed the same for twenty years. In my lifetime I've seen entire technologies rise and go obsolete (TTL anyone?), in some technologies at breakneck speeds. Ask me sometime how much fun I've had finding a certain SMC floppy disk controller that ten years ago was in almost every PC built, and is now "obsolete" and almost impossible to find.

In this environment, it's easy to see the small mom-and-pop not being able to survive. It's just not the same world anymore.

[David Madden]

On 2/7/2012 10:00, Doug Ausmus wrote:
> IMHO- management has made some disastrous decisions

Yeah, I've only gone there a few times, and only bought something once,
because it felt like their business model was "gouge people who didn't
plan ahead, and consequently need some random electronic part RIGHT NOW."

Well, yeah, that's a good strategy if you want to train your (former)
customers to plan ahead by ordering from DigiKey. Which is what I do.

Now, I'll wait a week for that stupid 8-cent resistor, rather than give
Norvac $3 for two of 'em in a little cardboard pack.

There's making a profit, which I'm happy to help local businesses do;
and there's gouging, which ... $%@* you, chump.

--
Mersenne Law LLC · www.mersenne.com · +1-503-679-1671
- Small Business, Startup and Intellectual Property Law -
1500 SW First Ave. · Suite 1170 · Portland, Oregon 97201

[Jared Boone]

On Feb 7, 2012, at 10:25 AM, Blain C wrote:

Well... A month ago the owner had probably already decided to sell, so instead if continuing to buy parts that no one wanted, he decided to only stock the popular ones, and do everything else order-only. They were out of the uln2803 darlington arrays that I needed, but ordered them for me with no obligation to buy them when they got there. That's actually a pretty good idea, if you're going out of business. The less stock you have to liquidate, the less money you lose doing so.

(Old-man bottom-poster, here...)

Sadly, the experience Doug described is typical of how Norvac was run over the last fifteen or twenty years. Every time I went there to buy parts to assemble something fairly simple, they were always out of stock on half of the resistors or capacitors I was looking for. Most times, these items were *common* values -- not some obscure high-precision, oddball part. After a while, I stopped going there, because I knew they wouldn't have what I needed, and the trip would be a waste of time. Fry's is a bit better, so I would try there if I needed something urgently. But now, I mostly buy from Digi-Key because I know in two or three days I'd have exactly what I want, for less what I would've paid in gas/time/mark-up to go to Norvac or Fry's. It'd be great to have a local outlet where I could get common parts same-day, but Norvac never really seemed interested in satisfying that (or any?) niche.

- Jared

[Donald Delmar Davis]

I had a pretty interesting conversation with the buyer at urs a couple of years ago. He had some insight.

Norvac and URS used to make their bread and butter servicing people who actually repaired things.
When the television and other household appliances became to cheap to justify servicing them (as apposed to throwing them away) they lost a major source of income and were stuck with warhorses full of unsellable goods.

The problem is that as we go back to insourcing and the DIY economy picks up the stuff we need and the companies that we purchase them from will be in the dumpster.

[Archturiat Baumann]

On Feb 7, 2012, at 11:02 AM, Donald Delmar Davis wrote:

> I had a pretty interesting conversation with the buyer at urs a couple of years ago. He had some insight.
>
> Norvac and URS used to make their bread and butter servicing people who actually repaired things.
> When the television and other household appliances became to cheap to justify servicing them (as apposed to throwing them away) they lost a major source of income and were stuck with warhorses full of unsellable goods.
>
> The problem is that as we go back to insourcing and the DIY economy picks up the stuff we need and the companies that we purchase them from will be in the dumpster.

I think that's only part of the problem.

The electronics parts business is having the same problem the automotive parts business is having. It's as much an inventory and logistics problem as it is an economic one. The parts required to repair anything has exploded from a few common parts to.. well, millions of parts.

Anybody who's ever replaced a fuel filter on a (really) old car as experienced this. One fuel filter was usable across many different makes and models and even production years. Today, it's not uncommon for different models by the same marque to require a different fuel filter. Add to that the quantity of components in an automobile has increased dramatically, and the level of sophistication required to diagnose and service those cars has also increased.

So goes electronics. With the level of integration it's almost impossible to do a component-level repair on most electronic devices. And even if you could, there's a problem with the local parts shop just not having the space to stock every conceivable component for every electronic device out there. So, your iPhone display gets cracked, and you order a new one from a company that specializes in smartphone displays. Because they can have a small warehouse devoted to just parts for smartphones that (I would wager) is comparable in size to Norvac's.

The companies we need are still going to survive. They're going to be the wholesale parts houses of yesterday: Mouser, and DigiKey, and a small collection of houses that sell specialized components (laptop parts, smartphone screens) and/or surplus. Drop shipped to you by UPS.

[Aaron Eiche]

And when that does happen, new companies that provide the right materials will spring up to fill the void. I think it's a shame that Norvac is on it's last legs. Occasionally I've found a couple of useful items there, and it was the first place my dad went when he was looking to fix something.

From what's been said on the list here, it sounds like Norvac hasn't done a great job of following the market. For the things I got from them that were helpful, many more times I walked out of there having not found anything that I needed. I'm sad to see a shop like this go, because it's one less place we have for components - but Surplus Gizmos also has a lot of the stuff I need, and surprisingly so does Radio Shack, and occasionally so does Free Geek. So it's a loss, but not a total loss.

[Paul Stoffregen]

Perhaps the future of in-person DIY electronic parts sales will be
vending machines?

Already some of the hackerspaces and places like Techshop are starting
to use them. Here's on in New York I particularly like....

http://www.nycresistor.com/2012/01/19/teensy-vending/

[Doug Ausmus]

I wonder why you like this one? <lol>

[Ward Cunningham]

On Feb 7, 2012, at 10:46 AM, Archturiat Baumann wrote:

> And this is where I have to come to the defense of RadioShack. They have in some cases INCREASED their parts inventory over the past ten years in some stores, and yet nobody seems happy.

I'm happy.

Since I'm not really an electronics guy, and I only do small spur-of-the-moment projects, I consider Radio Shack (and my friends at Dorkbot) to be my total creative pallet.

This has got to be sustained out of a sense of obligation to the next generation on Radio Shack's part. I don't hesitate to tell the manager that I'm really happy that they continue to sell transistors at whatever markup is required.

I've also found myself standing in front of their parts cabinet talking to my brother (who is an electronics guy) about which transistor I should buy. It's cool that he can go to Radio Shack's website and see what choice is in front of me.

[Ward Cunningham]

On Feb 7, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Paul Stoffregen wrote:

> Perhaps the future of in-person DIY electronic parts sales will be vending machines?
>
> Already some of the hackerspaces and places like Techshop are starting to use them. Here's on in New York I particularly like....
>
> http://www.nycresistor.com/2012/01/19/teensy-vending/
>

Very cool.

I want one at Backspace filled with variety packs based on whatever group order I happen to have missed.

[Thomas Pippert]

Portland State's IEEE chapter just approved a funds allocation to install a parts vending machine in the basement of the Fourth Avenue Building on campus, so very soon at least one parts vending machine will be in operation here in Portland.  Of course, this machine is intended for students who miss the IEEE store hours and need a specialized kit for class, but I think the plan is to include some more generic parts too.

-Adam

[Aaron Eiche]

Now *this* sounds like a group project to tackle. 

Seems like we could build a way better vending machine than we could just buy...

[Monty Goodson]

I think it would be awesome to have a vending machine at Backspace, stocked with inventory from our local component makers and resellers such as Teensys, dork boards, and Arduinos, breadboards and prototyping stuff from FunGizmos, and common components from the main distributors.

The two biggest hurdles I see are licensing and somebody to manage it and keep it stocked.

On a somewhat related note, VendScreen, a local startup set to make waves in the vending machine market with their cellular-connected Android based UI module for vending machines has DorkbotPDX to thank for getting hooked up with their Android kernel developer. They recently rocked the Bagdad with their pitch at the Portland Incubator Experiment's demo day:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATkV294wmqg&feature=player_embedded#!

Monty

> <PastedGraphic-10.png>_______________________________________________

[Matt Youell]

On 2/7/12 12:55 PM, Aaron Eiche wrote:
> Now *this* sounds like a group project to tackle.
> Seems like we could build a way better vending machine than we could
> just buy...
>

Just to put things into perspective, a used vending machine can be had
in the $500-$1500 range.

If you guys really want to do this I think buying one and then group
hacking on it makes more sense than building, even factoring in the joy
of making.

A group fund for that amount might be challenging. This might be an
opportunity for one of the more entrepreneurial of you to fund this
operation and work out a deal with Backspace and see what happens.

Btw, I might have a lead on local used vending machines. If someone is
really interested, I'll look into it.

p.s. - It pained me not to top post this. :)

--
-/matt/-
http://youell.com/matt

[Aaron Eiche]

On that, does anyone know what the techy/hobbiest/nerdish turn out to Backspace is outside of the Dorkbot meeting? If the only customers are the 20 or so of us that show up every other week, there's probably not much interest. That said, a wide array of items could appeal the market there... probably not snacks. 

I'm interested.

[Paul Stoffregen]

Installing a parts vending machine probably makes much more sense at ADX.

Some time ago, ADX expressed interest in hosting Dorkbot functions.  Personally, I'd love to see a regular gathering that's more project building/troubleshooting oriented, but not as formal as a workshop, sort-of like the open labs but with an emphasis on helping build or troubleshoot circuitry/code, and hopefully with the Moday's social aspect (and beer).  Of course, I'm not volunteering to take a leading role in organizing any event, but if someone did host such an event, I'd certainly volunteer to bring equipment and help people build or debug stuff.  I do some of that sort of thing on Mondays, and I think we as a community have a real need for more ways to help each other get stuff working....

[Ward Cunningham]

On Feb 7, 2012, at 1:31 PM, Monty Goodson wrote:

> I think it would be awesome to have a vending machine at Backspace, stocked with inventory from our local component makers and resellers such as Teensys, dork boards, and Arduinos, breadboards and prototyping stuff from FunGizmos, and common components from the main distributors.
>
> The two biggest hurdles I see are licensing and somebody to manage it and keep it stocked.
>
> On a somewhat related note, VendScreen, a local startup set to make waves in the vending machine market with their cellular-connected Android based UI module for vending machines has DorkbotPDX to thank for getting hooked up with their Android kernel developer. They recently rocked the Bagdad with their pitch at the Portland Incubator Experiment's demo day:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATkV294wmqg&feature=player_embedded#!

The VendScreen connection could be key. They're very aware that their inventory and payment innovations will create new vending markets. Why not us? Perhaps there could be some economic development dollars to pilot Norvac 2.0 right here in Portland. How many machines do we want?

[Doug Ausmus]

Ward, this is exactly what was going through my head as I watched the VendScreen video...
<g>

[Aaron Eiche]

I vote that we use the name "Cavron", because it would be funny.

The VendScreen presentation was great, I can help but want to roll our own solution. I suspect that our needs would be slightly different from most VendScreen users. Depending on how information is entered, who is ultimately responsible for that information, etc, our needs might be pushed to the back based solely on need.

I don't know much about the vending business though... so maybe these needs would be addressed.

[Monty Goodson]

Regarding regular open labs, PARTS is doing something similar at ADX on Monday nights opposite of DorkBots.  These started out as working sessions for a group project, but have turned into a more general group hack session.  We did have to work out a contract w/ ADX and are paying for the access.  We also all had to sign liability waivers, and supposedly are limited in the max number of people that can attend.

ADX would definitely be another prime location for a vending machine.  I see Backspace as a more central and more heavily visited location though.  It's a good question on demographics outside of DorkBot nights, but  a vending machine in a popular techie place like Backspace could encourage more people to get into hardware hacking.

Monty

[Monty Goodson]

VendScreen's UI is a good example of what could be done.  VendScreen writes the apps for their customers, and I imagine they're going to have their hands full with the interest they are getting.  It would be cool to get developer access to one their units and write our own apps, but I don't know if that would be feasible.

Hacking up our own solution starting with a used or donated vending machine would be more the DorkBot style anyways.  Paresh, VendScreen's CEO, is a local vending machine operator, and may be willing to donate to the cause…  No promises, but stay tuned.

Is there any license require to operate a vending machine?  I'm pretty sure there is for food; not sure about non-food.

Monty

[Donald Delmar Davis]

Can we here this from ADX?

[Mark Allyn]

I am curious, do places like Mouser and Digikey even have brick/morter
presenses or is the stuff shipped directly (drop ship) from the
manufacturers

<lots of stuff about why local brick/morter electronics stores unable to
survive>

Truly,

Mark Allyn
Portland, Oregon
www.allyn.com
971-563-7588

[Aaron Eiche]

I'm pretty sure they don't have Brick and Mortar Places (Store fronts). Mouser has 19 warehouses worldwide that they ship from, as well as (I imagine) an office that actually handles all of the business aspects.

I'm sure they do not drop-ship from manufacturers,except probably non-stocked items. Even then I doubt they do it.

[Mark Allyn]

You mention licensing as a hurdle for vending machines.

What licensing?

Does one need a license to sell a part in a vending machine? If I buy 1000
resistors from Mouser and put them in a vending machine, does Mouser (the
wholsaler) demand licensing?

Truly,

Mark Allyn
Portland, Oregon
www.allyn.com
971-563-7588

_______________________________________________

[Aaron Eiche]

I think licensing was mentioned in terms of obtaining a license from the state. My initial Google Searches provided not much information except that if you sell food you have to have a food-handler's license. 

Beyond that, I suppose you just need to have a business license. 

Mouser is simply a distributor. I supposed they *could* require a license, but so far as I know, they do not (and thank goodness, can you imagine that nightmare?)

[David Madden]

On 2/7/2012 21:31, Mark Allyn wrote:
> Does one need a license to sell a part in a vending machine? If I buy
> 1000 resistors from Mouser and put them in a vending machine, does
> Mouser (the wholsaler) demand licensing?

No, but the city and/or state often require a license to operate things
like vending machines.

--
Mersenne Law LLC · www.mersenne.com · +1-503-679-1671
- Small Business, Startup and Intellectual Property Law -
1500 SW First Ave. · Suite 1170 · Portland, Oregon 97201

[Mark Allyn]

If not ADX, how about Brain Silo or the Watershed?

Truly,

Mark Allyn
Portland, Oregon
www.allyn.com
971-563-7588

[Mark Allyn]

Folks:

I hear discussions of vending machines here.

Inside my dreams, I have visions of vandalized vending machines I remember
from my childhood.

I remember a busted up vending machine *inside* a movie theater during my
teen years in the 1970's.

Wherever we put something like this, it's going to need *constant*
supervision.

Truly,

Mark Allyn
Portland, Oregon
www.allyn.com
971-563-7588

[Donald Delmar Davis]

what is wrong with the initial suggestion of backspace?

[dan p]

Didn't I read something about ohsu having a vending machine with basic research stuff? Something involving dna if I remember correctly.

[Aaron Eiche]

Although ADX, Brain Silo, (and I think) Watershed are all better-targeted spaces, they're also member-limited. That means that you'd miss opportunities for people who don't frequent those places (non-members)

[Monty Goodson]

Yes, I only brought up licensing in terms of government regulations, such as:

http://licenseinfo.oregon.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=license_seng&link_item_id=14563

That's only for food items though.

Thought it would be worth checking on if this is in a retail establishment rather than something more private like a hacker space.

Monty

[Doug Ausmus]

As our attorney friend David indicated earlier, you  have to check local jurisdictions for vending machines (as well as the need for a business license), not just the state. And not really related to our use, but I don't think you need a Food Handler's permit for prepackaged food (David?) It should be easy to check with Portland city hall and ask them about vending machines. I can ask a friend of mine who is in that business full time as well, if we still have questions unanswered.

Business "licenses" are not required in Oregon, but certain business operations have permits and other requirements. Some cities may have a license requirement or a vending permit or both. I don't know if Oregon has any counties with business license or permit requirements (I have not heard of any counties with such in Oregon).

Oregon might require a DBA (ABN), depending on the specifics (David, can you address this?)
but these are not expensive per year and can be processed online with just a few minutes of work.

This might also work as a non profit organization if Dorkbot will be running it. Again, this is not hard to setup and might have other advantages.

If it is desired to have a for-profit get involved, then there are several businesses represented in DB PDX and also other non DB PDX'er businesses that might take that on, depending on how the arrangements worked out to make it viable. That path is more complicated, so let's not address that until and unless that is way everyone thinks it needs to go.

Personally, I think it would be awesome to make it a grass-roots effort of DB PDX itself.

And BTW,  I love the suggestion of "Cavron" as an entity name... just too good to pass up! :-) (and cavron.biz is available, although the other good ones are all taken but don't seem to be doing anything useful, so...)

-Doug

[Russell Senior]

>>>>> "Thomas" == Thomas Pippert <tpip...@pdx.edu> writes:

Thomas> Portland State's IEEE chapter just approved a funds
Thomas> allocation to install a parts vending machine in the basement
Thomas> of the Fourth Avenue Building on campus, so very soon at least
Thomas> one parts vending machine will be in operation here in
Thomas> Portland. Of course, this machine is intended for students
Thomas> who miss the IEEE store hours [...]

Wait, what?? There is an IEEE store at PSU? Tell me more!

--
Russell Senior, President
rus...@personaltelco.net

[David Madden]

On 2/7/2012 22:46, Doug Ausmus wrote:
> but I don't think you need a Food Handler's permit for prepackaged
> food (David?)

I dunno, I don't really do much in that area. I almost had a patent
client who was doing something with the food carts, but it didn't pan out.

> It should be easy to check with Portland city hall and ask them
> about vending machines. I can ask a friend of mine who is in that
> business full time as well, if we still have questions unanswered.

That's what I'd do if somebody hired me to find out. Both the city and
the state are pretty good about answering questions like that, or
pointing you in the right direction.

> Oregon might require a DBA (ABN), depending on the specifics (David, can
> you address this?)

DBA is (sometimes) required if you're doing business under a name that's
not your own (and that is not the name of a corporation or LLC). If
Dorkbot was going to own & operate a vending machine, it'd probably be a
good idea to incorporate, maybe as a non-profit, and maybe even to buy
some insurance. (Incorporation/non-profit and/or insurance might be a
good idea anyway, since there's always open chassis around and people
can't resist sticking their fingers into them.)

--
Mersenne Law LLC · www.mersenne.com · +1-503-679-1671
- Small Business, Startup and Intellectual Property Law -
1500 SW First Ave. · Suite 1170 · Portland, Oregon 97201

[Greg Peek]

Don't forget the new (couple years old) $150 minimum state business tax. 

I could see an ADX vending machine stocking sand paper and drill bits in addition to Teensy's and wire.  And ABS filament.

I quit going to Radio Shack for cause many years ago. I don't know that I will ever be ready to go back.  I wish Fry's was closer.

[Thomas Lockney]

On Feb 7, 2012, at 10:58 PM, David Madden wrote:

>> Oregon might require a DBA (ABN), depending on the specifics (David, can
>> you address this?)
>
> DBA is (sometimes) required if you're doing business under a name that's not your own (and that is not the name of a corporation or LLC). If Dorkbot was going to own & operate a vending machine, it'd probably be a good idea to incorporate, maybe as a non-profit, and maybe even to buy some insurance. (Incorporation/non-profit and/or insurance might be a good idea anyway, since there's always open chassis around and people can't resist sticking their fingers into them.)

<begin rant>

This is where I step in and mention that DorkbotPDX should not be turned into any sort of business entity. I have strong reasons for this and Jason, Don, etc. have heard me go on at length about this in the past. If there is enough interest in doing this, it is easy enough to set up a new entity, with appropriate people taking the lead, that can run and operate it, and they can even use the DorkbotPDX name in marketting/advertising, for all I care.

Among other things, Dorkbot is not a name we have any claim to, but that is not really the biggest source of my concern. Mostly, I just really want to avoid having the group end up turning into any sort of operation that handles money. I think going down that road can quickly result in bad things happening and have asked all workshop organizers, etc. to keep the money handling as a separate concern. Please let's keep it that way.

</end rant>

[Monty Goodson]

I agree -- I like Dorkbot's simplicity. No paperwork, money, elections, or other BS to deal with. It does make it harder to do some things though, like arrange group hack sessions at someplace like ADX that requires contracts and payment. How are the workshops handled? Is that just somebody stepping up and taking the responsibility under their own name?

For the vending machine, I can see a few possible solutions --
1.) Backspace and/or ADX "owns" the machine and we maintain and stock it
I got a message from Kelley at ADX -- they are excited about the vending machine idea and have been thinking about their own for small tools and consumables.
2.) Somebody starts an organization separate from DorkbotPDX to do this -- non-profit preferred so that anybody willing to donate a vending machine, or parts, can get a tax write-off.
3.) An existing company with ties to DorkbotPDX takes this on.

Monty

[Aaron Eiche]

Does anyone have any objections to doing Vending Machines in both spaces? I've been out to ADX once, but I'm at backspace at almost every meeting. It might be even fun to team up and challenge each other to feature additions.

[David Madden]

On 2/8/2012 09:07, Thomas Lockney wrote:
> Among other things, Dorkbot is not a name we have any claim to, but
> that is not really the biggest source of my concern. Mostly, I just
> really want to avoid having the group end up turning into any sort of
> operation that handles money. I think going down that road can
> quickly result in bad things happening and have asked all workshop
> organizers, etc. to keep the money handling as a separate concern.
> Please let's keep it that way.

I see this attitude a lot among young (often) idealistic engineers. In
fact, I was one myself, once. But what you don't see, the flip side of
"not incorporating," is that somebody else starts selling "DorkbotPDX
Dessert Topping and Anal Lube (Now with less Santorum!)" or something,
and you can't do anything about it. Or somebody gets shocked by a Van
de Graff generator, and before you know it, half-a-dozen Dorkbotters are
defendants in a lawsuit, not because they had anything to do with it,
but because they happen to have the biggest bank accounts.

Incorporating doesn't mean you HAVE TO make money. In fact, you can set
up your articles pretty much any way you want to, so that it's harder
for somebody to come in, take over, and turn you into an evil
money-grubbing corporation.

At the very least, it'd be smart to have insurance, which we could all
chip in for, or pay for out of a "tax" on group orders, or whatever.

Just MHO.

--
Mersenne Law LLC · www.mersenne.com · +1-503-679-1671
- Small Business, Startup and Intellectual Property Law -
1500 SW First Ave. · Suite 1170 · Portland, Oregon 97201

[Aaron Eiche]

Ourselves of the future are infinitely smarter than ourselves of right now, I think it would be difficult to guard against someone finding away around articles. I would argue it's the chief reason why legislating against behavior isn't very effective. (</potentialPolitics>)

That all said, I'd much prefer someone simply create a business umbrella to put this under, and invite us (anyone) to join in the hacking/fun/whatever. I like DorkbotPDX, and incorporating I think leads (potentially) to a lot of electing, voting, treasurying, dues, and a bunch of other things that have nothing to do with getting together, showing off cool stuff, and having a good time.

At this very moment though, aren't we sticking the DorkbotPDX label on a Bus Pirate board that 30 or more of us ordered?

[Thomas Lockney]

On Feb 8, 2012, at 10:56 AM, David Madden wrote:

> On 2/8/2012 09:07, Thomas Lockney wrote:
>> Among other things, Dorkbot is not a name we have any claim to, but
>> that is not really the biggest source of my concern. Mostly, I just
>> really want to avoid having the group end up turning into any sort of
>> operation that handles money. I think going down that road can
>> quickly result in bad things happening and have asked all workshop
>> organizers, etc. to keep the money handling as a separate concern.
>> Please let's keep it that way.
>
> I see this attitude a lot among young (often) idealistic engineers. In fact, I was one myself, once. But what you don't see, the flip side of "not incorporating," is that somebody else starts selling "DorkbotPDX Dessert Topping and Anal Lube (Now with less Santorum!)" or something, and you can't do anything about it. Or somebody gets shocked by a Van de Graff generator, and before you know it, half-a-dozen Dorkbotters are defendants in a lawsuit, not because they had anything to do with it, but because they happen to have the biggest bank accounts.
>
> Incorporating doesn't mean you HAVE TO make money. In fact, you can set up your articles pretty much any way you want to, so that it's harder for somebody to come in, take over, and turn you into an evil money-grubbing corporation.
>
> At the very least, it'd be smart to have insurance, which we could all chip in for, or pay for out of a "tax" on group orders, or whatever.

Just FYI, we are not in a vacuum here. Dorkbot is not just DorkbotPDX, though we could certainly act as if it is. The Dorkbot community as a whole has, as far as I can tell based on talks with the other organizers, avoided this, explicitly, on purpose. There are numerous reasons, but the moment we begin to act like something more than just a community and like some sort of active interest group, the nature of things change. I'd prefer not to see that happen and, if it does, I'd prefer not to be a part of it.

I understand there are legal reasons to want to do something like this, as you explained -- I have more than enough lawyers in the family and around me to have heard about the dangers that await out there. But I, for one, prefer to hold onto the hope that no one will do anything stupid here. Yes, I know that's idealistic, but I'm also not what most people would still consider young. I also know that we walk a fine line. I'd prefer to keep trying to talk that line for now.

As I told Don in another email off list, I'd be more than happy to participate in setting up an organization that can act as sponsor for DorkbotPDX, so long as I don't have to be the person dealing with the money (can you tell that's something I really don't care for?). In fact, I think we probably should do that. Many of the other Dorkbot groups around the world work, essentially, this way -- a person or organization sponsors them and makes sure the business needs are covered. But that keeps the "community" distinct from the "operations" -- something that I think is very important for our continuing as a healthy entity (whatever form that might take).

This is just my $0.02 (not worth much these days).

~thomas

[dan p]

Disclaimer, not been active in quite a while, though I have been
lurking and trying to send folks toward the meetings/aurdiuno
inductions, etc.

The comment about dorkbotters getting sued, as this is an informal
organization, not one with officers or such, really not much of a
"membership" other than an e-mail list. How? I get e-mails from other
groups, maybe they are incorporated, maybe not, but does that make me
culpable (right word?) I wouldn't think so.

I much prefer the "group of people who get together every so often to
dork out and drink beer" organization that has people organize money
type things on their own, than the sort that has officers, dues, etc.
Even if we live under the threat of lube sales.

yes, I said "threat of lube sales"

2 cents.

[Monty Goodson]

I was down at Backspace tonight for an event and talked to the owner, Eric, about a Dorkbot vending machine.  He was interested in the idea and would be willing to discuss some sort of shared operation arrangement.

Perhaps they would "own" the machine and parts would be stocked on consignment from the various suppliers (PJRC, FunGizmos, etc).  A Dorkbotter willing to take the lead on maintaining and stocking the machine could do so on a contract basis with Backspace.  Not sure how all the details would work out, but the possibility is there.

ADX is interested in working something out as well.

Anybody interested in taking on a side business keeping a couple of vending machines stocked and maintained?

Monty 

[Blain C]

On a contract basis? How would it work then? I may be interested in helping out.

[Russell Senior]

>>>>> "Monty" == Monty Goodson <mon...@bittybot.com> writes:

Monty> Anybody interested in taking on a side business keeping a
Monty> couple of vending machines stocked and maintained?

Maybe Jeri can put them on her pinball machine route. ;-)

--
Russell Senior, President
rus...@personaltelco.net

[Ward Cunningham]

On Feb 8, 2012, at 9:14 PM, Monty Goodson wrote:

> I was down at Backspace tonight for an event and talked to the owner, Eric, about a Dorkbot vending machine. He was interested in the idea and would be willing to discuss some sort of shared operation arrangement.
> Perhaps they would "own" the machine and parts would be stocked on consignment from the various suppliers (PJRC, FunGizmos, etc). A Dorkbotter willing to take the lead on maintaining and stocking the machine could do so on a contract basis with Backspace. Not sure how all the details would work out, but the possibility is there.
>
> ADX is interested in working something out as well.
>
> Anybody interested in taking on a side business keeping a couple of vending machines stocked and maintained?
>
> Monty

What keeps going through my head is that there must be some way to use VendScreen to make inventory management tractable when multiple suppliers share a machine. Can it now be done with clever software taking the place of a middle-man doing the restocking?

Its awesome that Backspace would consider hosting and/or shared operation. They wouldn't be the middle man that I'm hoping to eliminate.

[Steve D.]

Howdy All,
I am posting on behalf of an acquaintance looking for a Python tutor for her 13 year old home-schooled son. I gather the job is flexible as far as timing but should start soon.
If you are interested, I'll put you in touch so you can name your rate and determine if the job is a fit.
Thanks!

Steve

[Greg Peek]

http://www.codecademy.com/#!/exercises/0

Learn to program with Javascript online.  One lesson is posted per week.  Lessons are easy enough for a 13 year old. Very simple lessons, slowly introducing new concepts, plenty of repetition. 

[Doug Ausmus]

This is a link directly to the languages page at that site, where you can choose python and get started:
http://labs.codecademy.com/#

[Brian Troutwine]

Zed Shaw's excellent book: http://learnpythonthehardway.org/

--
Brian L. Troutwine

[Donald Delmar Davis]

After wasting the weekend fighting the apple store and downloading something we should have been able to just go to the apple store and pick up, we still do not have a working lion system.
If anyone is running lion who can help me resolve some issues with the workshop kits and the arduino it would be greatly appreciated.

Don.

[interrupt 0x03]

looks like Norvac Beaverton's liquidation sale began today....

[Jeremy Salmon]

Confirmed. Good selection of stuff, but I think I got the last packet of UV LEDs.

J

[Jerry Biehler]

I hand soldered my bust pirate Monday might and borrowed an ICD2 puck to program the thing. It sees the uC but for the life of me I can't find the files to program the boot loader. Anyone know where to find them?

-Jerry

[D Delmar Davis]

I think you were supposed to go to build out party so the list didn't have to support this.

BLDGP

[Scott Dixon]

Hi, Jerry-
The files are here:
http://code.google.com/p/dangerous-prototypes-open-hardware/downloads/detail?name=BusPirate.package.v6.1.zip&can=2&q=
The BPv$ bootloader and firmware are in that download.
-scott

On Mar 28, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Jerry Biehler wrote:

[Jerry Biehler]

Was signed up. Sometime life makes other plans for us.

-Jerry

[Jerry Biehler]

Thanks. I'll give it a try when I get home.

-Jerry

[Jerry Biehler]

It's working. Thanks!

-Jerry

[Philip Odom]

You seem to have some very specific ideas about what this list is for. Could you please define "blabber" so that the rest of us don't make the mistake of offending you in the future? Maybe you should unsubscribe to avoid future annoyance.