Django for a front end designer

[biof...@gmail.com]

I am a designer guy not a programmer. My coding skills are html, css
and some jquery tweaks to suit my needs, but i come to a point where i
think i need to learn a real language. What i'm doing now is working
with Textpattern or Wordpress(but i dont really like it) when i need
some dynamic web site. So my question is: is Django viable for me or
is to overwhelming. Should I stick to my current situation and be and
average cms "tweaker" or learn a new language to boost my toolbox? I
asked this same question on another forum and 90% of the replies where
to learn PHP and work with wordpress ( but the code ....). Also i
don't know where to begin with django apart from the installation of
course. Is there any tutorials about using django for web design?
Thanks in advance

P.S- I work on OSX don't know if its relevant or not.

[Shawn Milochik]

Go for it. It will require you to learn to program, but if you're up for
it then that's awesome.

If you do the tutorial and read the following wiki page I'm sure you'll
find plenty of helpful people on this list.
https://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/UsingTheMailingList

Shawn

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

Difficult to say really. 

If your main focus is to be a designer, and not to be a full on programmer, then I'd say you are probably best sticking with wordpress.

If you don't really have a main focus, or you have some spare time, then defo take some time to learn python+django. I would strongly advice learning some Python first, then moving onto Django afterwards, it will help a lot.

From my own experience, I come from a background of 8 years PHP/Python development, and 2 years of Django development. It took me around a year, and 3 'failed projects' to really learn how to use Django properly. It's all a learning curve :)

Hope this helps

Cal

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[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 6:44 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] <cal.l...@simplicitymedialtd.co.uk> wrote:

Difficult to say really. 

If your main focus is to be a designer, and not to be a full on programmer, then I'd say you are probably best sticking with wordpress.

If you don't really have a main focus, or you have some spare time, then defo take some time to learn python+django. I would strongly advice learning some Python first, then moving onto Django afterwards, it will help a lot.

From my own experience, I come from a background of 8 years PHP/Python development, and 2 years of Django development. It took me around a year, and 3 'failed projects' to really learn how to use Django properly. It's all a learning curve :)

+ I'm still learning new things about Python+Django every day lol.

[bruno desthuilliers]

Django is not about web "design" but about server-side web programming
- just like PHP is FWIW, and you'll have to learn programming if you
expect to do anything right with either. PHP is probably easier to get
started with, but the way it works tends to promote messy code and bad
practices - and FWIW, as a language, it's a mess by itself. Python is
a more powerful and cleaner language, and Django is a sane, no-
nonsense framework, but it assumes you already have some basic
programming knowledge.

To make a long story short: you'll have to learn programming anyway,
so you might be better learning with a sane language and framewok -
but my opinion is obviously biased ;)

> P.S- I work on OSX don't know if its relevant or not.

As far as I'm concerned, OSX is a pain (as a programming platform)
whaver language / techno you want to use.

[webcomm]

Hi there,

For building dynamic websites, I'd say you should learn a language
like PHP or Python. Yep. For working with Django you definitely need
to know Python.

Something like WordPress has a very different and narrower set of
intentions behind its design than does Django. WordPress is really a
blogging program, though some people bend it to other purposes.
Django is a framework, through and through, so it is designed for more
diverse purposes.

Where to learn Django: djangoproject.org tutorials and the Definitive
Django Guide: http://www.djangobook.com/

As for PHP vs Python... neither programming language is harder or
easier to learn. However, I would say learning Python + Django ends
up being harder overall because it requires more understanding of
server administration than PHP requires. I like Python a little
better than PHP, and Django is great, but getting started with the PHP
language + a PHP framework is easier and requires less learning
overall. Some would say "well, don't you want to learn more, not
less?" That depends on your situation.

Oh, and to get a site up and running, yeah, it would be much easier to
learn PHP + WordPress, or PHP + symfony, etc.

Good luck,
Ryan

[biof...@gmail.com]

Thank you all for the advices/sugestions.
For what i read most of you advice on PHP + framework and i can
understand that. I looked at django and rails as a option for me to
have. My PHP knowledge is very limited, and sometimes i need some
functionality on a wordpress site or on a textpattern one but my
knowledge doest allow me to do much. Thats when i "feel" i need to
learn some programing language in order to be able to do what i have
in mind.

[webcomm]

Writing a WordPress plugin might be a good initial goal for you. It's
been a while since I wrote one, but it's fairly easy if I remember
right. Though nothing's perfectly easy when you're just getting
started.

If you're going to start with a little PHP -- or regardless of the
language you start with -- I would go to a physical bookstore, look
through some books until you find something that makes sense to you,
buy it, and then work up to writing a WordPress plugin (if you go
PHP).

Like I said, ultimately I think python may be a cut above PHP, but I
think it would be a steep climb for various reasons not related to the
language itself, and you wouldn't get much satisfaction for a while.
And it wouldn't help you do custom work in WordPress, of course.

If you do want to try Python at some point, I'd urge you to install
Ubuntu (linux) on your computer and get comfortable with that first.
It's much easier to do Python work in linux. Plus, it's a great
operating system. I tried working with python on Windows XP for a
long time, and that slowed me down a lot. For PHP, I don't think the
operating system matters quite as much. If you want to do PHP in OSX,
get XAMPP: http://www.apachefriends.org/en/xampp-macosx.html

-Ryan

[paulo couto]

Ok thanks for the clarifications :

I guess i'll go to PHP for now and when i have more prog. experience i'll try python and django to be able to build my own stuff from scratch.

Now i only need to find where to start in PHP :)

Thanks all for your time.

2011/8/2 webcomm <rya...@gmail.com>

[Malcolm Box]

On 2 August 2011 18:49, bruno desthuilliers <bruno.des...@gmail.com> wrote:

As far as I'm concerned, OSX is a pain (as a programming platform)
whaver language / techno you want to use.

Don't be put off by this - it's certainly not my (nor many, many other people's) experience of programming on OS X.

From my experience, it rocks as a place to program:

- If you want to write Mac or iPhone code, XCode is an amazing IDE
- If you want to write stuff to deploy onto a Unix server, you have all the tools, libraries and stuff already working (OS X is Unix under the hood) - but cf Linux the available tools (editors etc) are superior.
- If you want to write Windows code then you can run a Windows VM and have everything safely sealed off
- It's all wrapped in a package that "just works" and gets out of the way. So you don't have to spend hours twiddling obscure X-Windows settings to get a desktop that works. Oh, and the battery life is good.

Malcolm

--
Malcolm Box
malco...@gmail.com

[Andre Lopes]

If you want to start with a PHP Framework, consider CodeIgniter. It is
the easier Framework for a starter.

[Bruce Dou]

Or you can try Rails.

A decathlon Developer & programmer
http://blog.eood.cn/

[枯藤天涯]

django is best for you,.beacuse it is writed by Python.and python is a  clear language.

2011/8/3 Bruce Dou <doub...@gmail.com>

[Sells, Fred]

I had to learn basic Php for a class. It's worth it to subscribe to
Lynda.com for a few months to get their online training videos. Removes
much pain. Like all training, it covers the basics and you really don't
know what you don't know until you try to do something.

--

[Cal Leeming]

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 9:15 AM, Andre Lopes <lopes8...@gmail.com> wrote:

If you want to start with a PHP Framework, consider CodeIgniter. It is
the easier Framework for a starter.

I personally came from CodeIgniter. Trust me, it is a *terrible* framework (in comparison to lightweight PHP frameworks and django).

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 9:15 AM, Andre Lopes <lopes8...@gmail.com> wrote:

If you want to start with a PHP Framework, consider CodeIgniter. It is
the easier Framework for a starter.

OP: I personally came from CodeIgniter. Trust me, it is a *terrible* framework (in comparison to lightweight PHP frameworks and django). It also simplifies things a lot, and gets you into the wrong way of doing things, so it might make you a "dumb" programmer. :/

[kenneth gonsalves]

On Thu, 2011-08-04 at 11:45 +0100, Cal Leeming wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 9:15 AM, Andre Lopes <lopes8...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> If you want to start with a PHP Framework, consider
> CodeIgniter. It is
> the easier Framework for a starter.
>
>
> I personally came from CodeIgniter. Trust me, it is a *terrible*
> framework (in comparison to lightweight PHP frameworks and django).

If django is heavy, go for something like web.py - but please avoid PHP.

[paulo couto]

Well I am trying to avoid PHP at all costs. Maybe im thinking it the wrong way, but after tweaking a wordpress theme, PHP seems very "ugly" and "unreadable" to me. I also developed some kind of mental block about PHP and I know for sure that if I have to learn it I will hate every second of it...hence my choice on python/django. 

2011/8/4 kenneth gonsalves <law...@thenilgiris.com>

--

[Andre Terra]

I personally learned python without any previous programming knowledge. TBH, I used to write scripts for mIRC, so I knew *some* very basic things, but be certain I had to rewire my entire brain to think like a real programmer.

I'm now on my third django project and while my developing speed has improved tenfold in the past year, it's an interesting learning process if you have the time and patience (and if you know English).

PHP is not a prerequisite to anyone who wants to learn python. Your time would be better spent reading more of the latter than dealing with idiosyncrasies of the former.


Cheers,
AT

[Peter Murphy]

If you are thinking about diving into PHP, I suggest you read this
first:

http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2006/02/17/PHP

It's five years old, but it contains a lot of links to pro- and anti-
PHP rants, which you should consider. (Consider also that there's no
good Unicode support inside PHP even after this time.) Personally,
reading it was enough for me to dive into Python instead. But you may
feel differently.

Another thing you should consider: sometimes programming languages
such as Python can be used for web-related things that aren't just
running a web server. Take screen-scraping: taking an existing website
of a client, and extracting its content for your use. There are
libraries available with Python like BeautifulSoup that allow you to
handle malformed HTML and scrape it into what ever file format you
want. Then you can use Django's admin functionality to load the file
into your database, making a new Django-powered website for your
client!

How would you screen-scrape in PHP? Is it even possible?

Before reading the Django tutorial, read the Python tutorial, and see
if the language is right for you or not:

http://docs.python.org/tutorial/

Whatever your decision, good luck!

Best regards,
Peter

[mail....@gmail.com]

I came into Django as a designer. It can be done, just take baby
steps. The more python you learn, the happier you'll be, and the more
productive. But in the mean time, you can do a lot with generic views
and reusable apps that would keep you from having to write much code
at all. I would suggest finding Jeff Croft's Django for designers blog
post from a few years back. It's a little out of date, but still worth
reading.

[Sells, Fred]

I think many of the members of this group have a pro-python bias for a
good reason. Most of us have had to work with many other frameworks and
languages and Python is the only one I would use to "unwind".

Sometimes it's worth "paying your dues"

[Doug Ballance]

I don't think it's necessarily a choice between learning php or
learning python. Most programming languages are fairly similar in
concept, and once you've mastered one it's reasonably easy to pick up
a new one. Python is a great language, but I think it's especially
great as a first language. Your time spent learning python and django
will not be wasted if you also choose to learn/use php. I think it's
much easier to learn good methodology and practices with python, and
then carry those practices over to php than than the other way
around.

[paulo couto]

Thank you all for your advices.

I started with the beginners guide from the python official site because i think i should learn at least the basics of python before move into django. 

What you advice after i complete the beginners guide?Should i pick one of my designs and try to "pythonize" it? Should i move to django (if so where to start)? Stay with python and learn more (again what should i follow)?

This is all very basic questions i know, but i would like the advices of the more expert programmers to avoid possible "mistakes".

Thanks in advance.

2011/8/5 Doug Ballance <dbal...@gmail.com>

[bruno desthuilliers]

On 5 août, 20:30, Doug Ballance <dball...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Your time spent learning python and django
> will not be wasted if you also choose to learn/use php.  I think it's
> much easier to learn good methodology and practices with python, and
> then carry those practices over to php than than the other way
> around.

Hear hear ;)

[bruno desthuilliers]

On 6 août, 22:53, paulo couto <biofob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you all for your advices.
> I started with the beginners guide from the python official site because i
> think i should learn at least the basics of python before move into django.

Yeps, right. Better to start with the core language, then learn the
framework IMHO - less "cognitive overhead", and you'll understand the
framework better.

> What you advice after i complete the beginners guide? Should i pick one of my

> designs and try to "pythonize" it? Should i move to django (if so where to
> start)? Stay with python and learn more (again what should i follow)?

IMHO the next steps should include spending some time on:

1/ text parsing and formatting in Python
2/ Python's object model (at least the basics)
3/ relational database design and raw SQL
4/ the HTTP protocol

Then it depends on what works best for you wrt/ learning processes. If
you're rather "bottom-up", then start with plain CGI programming (so
you understand what problems Django solves for you), else (if you're
rather "top-down"), go with the Django tutorial and try to build some
"simple" project (something like a simple blog should be a good
"pilot" project).

My 2 cents