Visual recogintion of Django website
Mikkel Høgh
real flaw I've managed to find in my use of Django is actually a
rather insignificant one.
I'm talking about the lack of a favicon on Django's websites (apart
from Django's trac instance, which uses the trac favicon.)
Before filing a ticket, I found an earlier discussion of this at
http://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/3867
Jacob states "We don't really need a favicon...". I'd like to
challenge this and say "No, we really do need one".
To illustrate my point, take a look at this image, a screenshot of a
very normal Firefox tab bar of mine:
http://mikkel.hoegh.org/galleries/odd_stuff/i_3_favicons?size=_original
It's much easier for me to find what I need by help of favicons - and
yes, most of the time, I have so many tabs open that I cannot see the
title of the web pages.
favicons have become a commodity. Almost all larger sites have one.
Google, Amazon, Yahoo, Microsoft, Linux.com, New York Times, IBM, Sun,
etc.
I realise that "Everyone else has one" is not a valid argument. I
realise that you might not want or care for favicons. But it is a
major help to those of us that rely on tabs and bookmarks, and I
really do hope you'll reconsider this.
Collin Grady
> To illustrate my point, take a look at this image, a screenshot of a
> very normal Firefox tab bar of mine:
> http://mikkel.hoegh.org/galleries/odd_stuff/i_3_favicons?size=_original
> It's much easier for me to find what I need by help of favicons - and
> yes, most of the time, I have so many tabs open that I cannot see the
> title of the web pages.
Normally people don't pack tab bars that tiny though, so there would
still be text to ID tabs by also :)
--
Collin Grady
Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
Yuri Baburov
>
> Mikkel Høgh said the following:
> > To illustrate my point, take a look at this image, a screenshot of a
> > very normal Firefox tab bar of mine:
> > http://mikkel.hoegh.org/galleries/odd_stuff/i_3_favicons?size=_original
> > It's much easier for me to find what I need by help of favicons - and
> > yes, most of the time, I have so many tabs open that I cannot see the
> > title of the web pages.
>
> Normally people don't pack tab bars that tiny though, so there would
> still be text to ID tabs by also :)
Even if you and Jacob won't use it.
--
Best regards, Yuri V. Baburov, ICQ# 99934676, Skype: yuri.baburov,
MSN: bu...@live.com
Mikkel Høgh
me :)
It's a part of my GTD thing. Instead of having my RSS-reader grow to
hundreds (even thousands) of unread posts, I go through it all
frequently and open everything worth reading in a new tab. If I don't
manage to get it read the next few days, it probably wasn't important,
and thus is deleted...
cjl
You can do it yourself:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3176
I don't think it works for tabs, but it definitely works for
bookmarks.
-cjlesh
Wensing, Matthew (CNI-Palm Beach)
Matt
Marty Alchin
an fundamental open-source concept missing from this conversation. If
you think the Django site needs a favicon, a good first step would be
to provide one. That's not guarantee it'll be used, of course, but if
it's so important, make one up and it'll make your argument more
convincing. Not only that, the Django guys then don't have to make one
up themselves, something which they're obviously not terribly
concerned with doing.
You'll notice that, despite this recommendation, I don't include an
example favicon in my email. The reason is simple: I don't really care
whether the site has one or not. I just think that if you're going to
request something, provide whatever you can, and it'll go that much
better.
-Gul
Simon Greenhill
Both have different favicons, one's marked as a dupe of the other
which is wontfixed by Jacob.
--Simon
http://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/3903
http://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/3867
Nicola Larosa
Jacob: "We don't really need a favicon..."
Any hint about why not?
--
Nicola Larosa - http://www.tekNico.net/
I'd like to get to a point where I'm making a comfortable living that's
independent of any single client or employer, with complete control over
my schedule. That's my ultimate goal. -- Phillip J. Eby, April 2007
Dave
On Sep 15, 10:22 pm, Mikkel Høgh <mikkelho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> To illustrate my point, take a look at this image, a screenshot of a
> very normal Firefox tab bar of mine:http://mikkel.hoegh.org/galleries/odd_stuff/i_3_favicons?size=_original
> It's much easier for me to find what I need by help of favicons - and
> yes, most of the time, I have so many tabs open that I cannot see the
> title of the web pages.
Easy, Django is the one without a favicon... oh wait, there's lots of
them in there.. I presume you're complaining to all of the other sites
that don't have them too?
Mikkel Høgh
Ideally, I should be, shouldn't I? Regardless, I don't see how helping
all kinds of strangers get better branding on their websites. I do see
the benefit strengthening the Django brand, however, since in open
source, more interest equals more momentum.
I'm not denying that my motivation here is somewhat selfish, but this
would be a small and quick thing to do. Granted, my Firefox habits are
perhaps not quite normal, but favicons remain a useful visual reminder.
Justin Lilly
http://www.flickr.com/photos/33767730@N00/1397125183/
Hope that is useful,
-justin
--
Justin Lilly
University of South Carolina
Robert Coup
I personally would also like a favicon for the django sites. I took the liberty of creating one using django's colors and fonts (stole the d from the logo).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/33767730@N00/1397125183/
I created something very similar for my own use, which combined with a greasemonkey script to trim the page titles of the documentation ("Django | Formfields & Manipulators | Django Documentation" -> "Formfields & Manipulators") makes it a lot easier for me to navigate django docs in Firefox. (the script is below if anyone is interested.)
My take: If someone has prepared a reasonable icon, why *not* use it?
Rob :)
// ==UserScript==
// @name Django Documentation TabMaster
// @namespace http://onetrackmind.co.nz/greasemonkey_scripts
// @description Simplify the Django documentation page titles so they can be seen more easily in Tabs
// @include http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/*
// ==/UserScript==
// Normally page titles are like this: "Django | Formfields & Manipulators | Django Documentation"
// We change it to be just the Page title and then add an icon to distinguish it from other tabs
// change the title
var title_parts = document.title.split(' | ');
if (title_parts.length == 3) {
document.title = title_parts[1]
}
// set the favicon
var icon = document.createElement ("link");
icon.rel = "shortcut icon";
icon.href = "/path/to/django_favicon.png";
icon.type = "image/png";
document.documentElement.firstChild.appendChild(icon);
Johann C. Rocholl
> I personally would also like a favicon for the django sites. I took the
> liberty of creating one using django's colors and fonts (stole the d from
> the logo).
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/33767730@N00/1397125183/
Here's another attempt, with improved vertical alignment
(mathematically perfect), and in Windows ICO format:
http://johann.rocholl.net/django-icon/favicon.ico
Maybe we could move the "d" left or right just a little to reduce
aliasing on the right edge. What do you think?
The Makefile, source PNG and intermediate files are also available:
http://johann.rocholl.net/django-icon/
http://johann.rocholl.net/django-icon/Makefile
http://johann.rocholl.net/django-icon/d.png
I've used the "d" from the big logo:
http://media.djangoproject.com/img/logos/django-logo-negative.png
http://www.djangoproject.com/community/logos/
It should be possible to use Apache with mod_rewrite to serve the
favicon.ico file statically, like this (in the Directory block for the
document root):
RewriteEngine On
RewriteBase /
RewriteRule ^(favicon.ico|robots.txt)$ static/$1 [L]
And then do the following:
<Location /static>
SetHandler None
</Location>
Just my 2 cents,
Johann
Todd O'Bryan
> On Sep 17, 10:17 am, "Justin Lilly" <justinli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I personally would also like a favicon for the django sites. I took the
> > liberty of creating one using django's colors and fonts (stole the d from
> > the logo).
> >
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/33767730@N00/1397125183/
>
> Here's another attempt, with improved vertical alignment
> (mathematically perfect), and in Windows ICO format:
> http://johann.rocholl.net/django-icon/favicon.ico
>
While I'm +0 on the favicon thing, I personally think "d" is
insufficient and "dj" would be much more identifiable as uniquely
Django.
Todd
Mike Scott
I'm also just +0 on the whole affair. While it would be nice I think it has far surpassed the effort needed.
Ned Batchelder
Now we just need to get someone to put it on the site...
--Ned.
-- Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com
Marcus
make the Django site more professional, and that cannot be a bad
thing.
> django-favicon.png
> 1KViewDownload
>
> django-favicon.ico
> 1KDownload
SmileyChris
> Now we just need to get someone to put it on the site...
+1. Easy to do, looks good.
Matt Boersma
+1. It's excellent.
Jan Oberst
> On Sep 21, 2007, at 2:22 PM, SmileyChris <smileych...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 19, 11:44 pm, Ned Batchelder <n...@nedbatchelder.com> wrote:
> >> Now we just need to get someone to put it on the site...
>
> > +1. Easy to do, looks good.
>
> +1. It's excellent.
+1. Very nice work.
Adam Fast
Mikkel Høgh
Mikkel Høgh
If Jacob, or anyone else, is against it, I wish they would step
forward and say so. Perhaps even argue as to why.
Malcolm Tredinnick
This is now just getting rude.
There are over 700 open bugs. If nobody is against fixing them, why are
they still open? Why hasn't anything happened yet? The horrors! Oh,
wait, maybe it's that thing where we take small, regular, steady steps.
Please try to appreciate that we don't have infinite amounts of time and
there are much higher priority issues than this one. Django will still
continue to function and we still continue to get millions of hits to
the website despite the lack of the icon you want to have in place so
much. Perhaps show some understanding whilst we manage to struggle on
working on improving all aspects of Django?
Thank you.
Malcolm
Mikkel Høgh
wrote:
> This is now just getting rude.
>
> There are over 700 open bugs. If nobody is against fixing them, why are
> they still open? Why hasn't anything happened yet? The horrors! Oh,
> wait, maybe it's that thing where we take small, regular, steady steps.
>
informed,
ticket 3867 (the one in question) is still closed with the resolution
"wontfix"
I do not demand that this be done now (or ever). I am not in a
position to
demand anything here.
The reason I have not reopened that particular ticket is that I don't
know
how you do things in the Django community. I assume that the one that
closed the ticket was Jacob Kaplan-Moss, and since I respect his
opinion,
I considered it to be rather rude to reopen it without him or another
of the Django developers having their say in the matter.
Since he has not done so, and the ticket is still closed, I wrote as I
did out
of impatience. I meant no disrespect to anyone. I know that the Django
developers have bigger and more important things on their plates, so
all I'm asking for is an answer.
If need be, I should be able to put together a patch, so all it would
take
would be for someone with access to the code to merge it, but if no
one will merge it, it would only be an exercise in futility.
James Bennett
> The reason I have not reopened that particular ticket is that I don't
> know
> how you do things in the Django community. I assume that the one that
> closed the ticket was Jacob Kaplan-Moss, and since I respect his
> opinion,
> I considered it to be rather rude to reopen it without him or another
> of the Django developers having their say in the matter.
If the ticket was closed by a lead developer, and the decision has so
far survived many other people begging and pleading on the mailing
list, it's a safe bet that continuing that process is not likely to
lead to a favorable outcome; at this point it's downright
antagonistic.
Just let it go already, and turn your time and attention to a real bug.
--
"Bureaucrat Conrad, you are technically correct -- the best kind of correct."
Mikkel Høgh
> If the ticket was closed by a lead developer, and the decision has so
> far survived many other people begging and pleading on the mailing
> list, it's a safe bet that continuing that process is not likely to
> lead to a favorable outcome; at this point it's downright
> antagonistic.
If it is indeed the opinion of the developers that Jacob's decision
should not be questioned, I will not raise this issue again.
I only hoped that there could be openness about it. If Jacob did
actually have a reason beyond "I don't think we need one", I would
like to hear it - if nothing else, I might learn something from it.
Even if he did not, we might learn something from that.
I am sorry if you find me antagonistic. That was not my intention. But
since it annoys me almost every time I work with the Django docs, it
has long been an itch that needed scratching. I still hope that this
issue will be fixed in the future.
Karen Tracey
Just let it go already, and turn your time and attention to a real bug.
But see, it is a real bug, at least to people with a certain work style, and not one they can fix themselves by runnig their own patched django, since it's a "bug" with the official website. Personally I don't care one way or the other (it's not my work style), but I can appreciate the problem for some. It's a problem for Mikkel, he researched it, found someone had previously opened a ticket that was closed wontfix with an offhand-sounding "we don't really need one", and raised the issue here to see what others thought. More than a dozen piped up to agree they thougt a favicon a good idea, a few alternatives were posted, one of which seemed to get broad acceptance from those interested. And the response from anyone with the power to do anything was ..... silence. Nobody said it was a bad idea, or the icon was unacceptable, or it was too much work, or even reiterated that they still didn't think it was necessary even given the discussion. Personally it didn't strike me as antagonistic to have re-raised the issue. Indeed even after today's responses I'm left sitting here curious as to "whyever not?", and I don't even care if it happens.
Karen
Marty Alchin
here, I'm just somebody who's been watching this discussion.
First, this isn't a bug in any sense of the word. It has nothing to do
with any breakage of code. It's a feature request. Let's just get that
straight. Feature requests should always get lower priority, plain and
simple.
While I can appreciate the desire of some to have a favicon, and I can
also understand the frustration at not hearing much from those in
charge, but there seems to be some confusion as to how things work
here. Yes, there has been discussion, and yes, there has been general
agreement on it, among those who want to see it happen (which actually
surprises me). However, a lack of negative response does not
automatically imply approval by anyone, especially not those in
charge.
So the logic of "we think it's great and nobody disagreed, so it
should be applied immediately" is completely false. If that was the
way it worked for other tickets, I'd have nightmares about it myself,
and I'm not even a core developer. The general rule of thumb, as far I
as I understand it, is that the burden of proof is on those in support
of the ticket. Sure, you might have a lot of support, but if that
support isn't greater than the reluctance to implement it, it won't
get done. No amount of silence from one party will change that. If the
core devs aren't convinced (and they'll tell you when they are), it
won't happen.
Also, allow me to try to explain why it's rude to bring things like
this up in this manner. Take a look at how many times the core
developers respond to emails on django-developers on an average day. I
don't have numbers off-hand, but I typically see about 5-10 emails per
day from each of Malcolm, Russell and Jacob, and there are others who
are active as well. What this means is that they do in fact check
their email. If they send an email before yours and another after it,
the odds are astronomically high that they read your email along the
way. Replying about it every few days just comes across as a child
tugging on her parents' pant legs to get an ice cream cone. Add to
that the language like "why hasn't anything happened yet?" and that
child is now saying "BUT BUT BUT I WANT IT!!!!!1".
Now, I'm not saying any of you are children, nor saying that you act
like children. But you have to realize that things like this have the
same effect on people as the child I described. These people have a
lot to deal with, and every time they have to stop and read yet
another email complaining about the lack of a favicon, they lose time,
they lose patience, and they lose the momentum they had on their other
endeavors.
I don't mean to speak for anyone but myself, but I'm playing the odds
when I say: they're listening, and they heard you.
-Gul
P.S. I apologize in advance if this offends anyone.
Robert Šmol
I'm the creator of this mess as I'm the issuer of the ticket 3867. I like django very much, I'm not that great at python yet to contribute so that was my try to help you guys. If I would only know how much time would be wasted on this discussion I wouldn't raise that call at all. So sorry for that. Still, I have to say I miss the favicon a lot:
http://www.stereoit.com/django/django_favicon_missing.png
and I thought it is just about taking the icon file and place it to the root of the htdocs folder (1 minute?). I've attached another try of django favicon to the ticket (16x16,48x48 and GIMP xcf file), this time with "dj" that clearly distinguish django.
Any comments on the icon style is appreciated and I will improve it to the point where you like it. Once everybody is happy with that, just place it to the htdocs and move on.
I hope I didn't offended anyone. I know you all are really busy with django internals.
Kind regards,
Robert Smol
Russell Keith-Magee
>
> I'll preface my thoughts with the disclaimer that I have authority
> here, I'm just somebody who's been watching this discussion.
I am in such a position, and let me say +1 to everything you said.
Thanks for saving me the effort of having to write it. :-)
> I don't mean to speak for anyone but myself, but I'm playing the odds
> when I say: they're listening, and they heard you.
...
Yes, we did. And like Malcolm said, there are about 700 things higher
on the list of things to deal with.
Yours,
Russ Magee %-)
Carl Karsten
> I'll preface my thoughts with the disclaimer that I have authority
> here, I'm just somebody who's been watching this discussion.
I could care less about "favicon", but do care about the polices. If all you
care about is coding, move on to the next thread.
I have watched online discussions for years and see a typical pattern here: The
subject has split into "original topic" and "meta discussion" but instead of
people formally addressing the 2, they treat it as one, and things get all
muddled up.
In this case, there is the "favicon" topic, and the "what is the policy?" topic.
I don't think people should be blasted, flamed, etc for asking "why?" Killfile
or un-subscribe them if it is really 'that bad.' or just go on to the next
post. if no one ever responds, the person asking will have to decide: is this
worth asking about again? if no, they just drop it, and minimal message
traffic has occurred. else yes: they simply "ping" their own message to get it
current again.
This is a Checks and Balances system that is fairly self regulating. Issue is
raised, things that seem small and insignificant get a small amount of
attention, and a decision is made. It is very possible that not enough
attention was given, but also possible that a good decision was made anyway.
(this is a good thing.) The flip side is sometimes good decision was not made.
This is where the Check comes in - someone who cares pipes up and questions
the decision. rest of people who care re-consider there previous assessments,
and maybe the resulting decision.
In general, this system does not lead to an excessive amount of traffic, unless
someone forks the thread and starts talking about policy. like I am.
>
> First, this isn't a bug in any sense of the word. It has nothing to do
> with any breakage of code. It's a feature request. Let's just get that
> straight. Feature requests should always get lower priority, plain and
> simple.
>
keeping to the policy topic,
If "priority" is the only thing that determines "order addressed":
then I disagree with "should always get lower priority."
else: ("priority" is not the only thing...)
then fine with the priority value.
In either case, Return On Investment should be what drives order.
In case this needs beating on: It would be silly to hold of on any progress
until every last bug was resolved, regardless of how insignificant. Given that
I am pretty sure new features are being work on despite the existence of bugs, I
think we can all agree silly is not happening.
So if a simple solution has been provided to a simple issue, I think it is
pretty reasonable to hope it would get addressed and be done with.
I think I have said all that needs to be said, so feel free to skip the rest of
my reply.
I am tempted to skip it myself, but I am going to point out some more common
problems that cause 100 post threads that don't accomplish anything.
> While I can appreciate the desire of some to have a favicon, and I can
> also understand the frustration at not hearing much from those in
> charge, but there seems to be some confusion as to how things work
> here. Yes, there has been discussion, and yes, there has been general
> agreement on it, among those who want to see it happen (which actually
> surprises me). However, a lack of negative response does not
> automatically imply approval by anyone, especially not those in
> charge.
I don't think anyone implied there was implied approval.
>
> So the logic of "we think it's great and nobody disagreed, so it
> should be applied immediately" is completely false.
Another thing that I didn't see happen.
> If that was the
> way it worked for other tickets, I'd have nightmares about it myself,
> and I'm not even a core developer. The general rule of thumb, as far I
> as I understand it, is that the burden of proof is on those in support
> of the ticket. Sure, you might have a lot of support, but if that
> support isn't greater than the reluctance to implement it, it won't
> get done.
"support isn't greater than the reluctance" does not seem to be the case here.
It seems support is greater than reluctance, but it still wasn't getting done,
> No amount of silence from one party will change that. If the
> core devs aren't convinced (and they'll tell you when they are), it
> won't happen.
In the polite/rude scheme of things, it would be polite to respond, especially
when someone has taken the time to supply a solution. It is certainly less rude
than silence.
>
> Also, allow me to try to explain why it's rude to bring things like
> this up in this manner. Take a look at how many times the core
> developers respond to emails on django-developers on an average day. I
> don't have numbers off-hand, but I typically see about 5-10 emails per
> day from each of Malcolm, Russell and Jacob, and there are others who
> are active as well. What this means is that they do in fact check
> their email. If they send an email before yours and another after it,
> the odds are astronomically high that they read your email along the
> way. Replying about it every few days just comes across as a child
> tugging on her parents' pant legs to get an ice cream cone. Add to
> that the language like "why hasn't anything happened yet?" and that
> child is now saying "BUT BUT BUT I WANT IT!!!!!1".
>
Here we have some math that doesn't really support the point trying to be made.
A minimum of 15 emails a day are going out to django-developers. I am fairly
sure some of these have a lower RoI (Return on Investment) than responding to a
proposed solution. (remember the bug/feature priority thing?)
A simple "seams reasonable, ticket re-opened" or "it really isn't that simple.
and i don't feel like discussing it" are much better than nothing.
> Now, I'm not saying any of you are children, nor saying that you act
> like children.
I think you are saying all that. but it doesn't really matter.
> But you have to realize that things like this have the
> same effect on people as the child I described.
They shouldn't have the same effect, given that the "things like this" are not
like the child you suggest, or didn't suggest. exactly what you are tying to
get across got muddled, but bottom line, the Original Post should not have the
same effect as a whiny child. This resulting spew of meta topic, sure.
Hopefully the silent workers took my advice and skipped all this.
> These people have a
> lot to deal with, and every time they have to stop and read yet
> another email complaining about the lack of a favicon,
Again, I do not think "complaining" was happening. questioning the system
should be encouraged, not discouraged.
This is a similar Checks and Balances system failing to work. The reason there
are so many "things like this" is because many people believe it has a high RoI
(return on invs...) The people think they are right, they have nothing to
convince them otherwise, and no way of knowing that their post got read.
> they lose time,
> they lose patience, and they lose the momentum they had on their other
> endeavors.
This sounds like triaging (and I guess re-triaging) doesn't have a high enough
priority, or something regarding RoI, which I hope I don't need to explain, cuz
I am getting hungry.
>
> I don't mean to speak for anyone but myself, but I'm playing the odds
> when I say: they're listening, and they heard you.
I agree with your odds assessment, but people should not have to play odds with
something like this.
> -Gul
>
> P.S. I apologize in advance if this offends anyone.
me too. either way, hit me up at PyCon and I'll buy you a beer.
Carl K
Wensing, Matthew (CNI-Palm Beach)
discourage them. I think that's the way it's meant to work, but in this
case the requestor doesn't have the expertise to finish the job?
Just my unrequested two cents,
Matt
Ned Batchelder
is now proudly displaying a favicon. Thanks to whoever it was for the
Halloween treat...
--Ned.
--
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com