New Sudbury Parent processing son's exposure to violent media content

[ejhmama]

My son just finished his third week (including 1 visitor week) at a
new Sudbury school. He is 5 years old and was unhappy in his
structured Pre-K program last year and very resistant to adult
authority. I was dreading the start of Kindergarten for him, because I
could tell that no matter how wonderful the teacher was, he would hate
it because someone was telling him what he should do.

He has been happier the last 3 weeks than I can remember him being in
a long while. He loves school (and so do we), and wishes he could go
there every day (and some days I wish I could send him every day!).
That being said, it is not without a lot of struggles for us as
parents. There are huge issues we have deal with emotionally to "let
go" and give our son the kind of freedom he has at school. For one
thing, I have huge issues around kids and media exposure, and my
single biggest fear that I shared with a staff member when we were
considering enrolling was that my son would spend a large amount of
his time playing video games and that the content of the video games
would be violent. By the end of his visitor week, my fear was totally
being lived out. My son spends much of his time (at least according to
him) playing Halo. I totally freaked out when I found out that not
only could media with violent content (rated M) come into the school,
but also that my son would have free access to that media. We came
mighty close to not enrolling. I am all for my son having all the
freedom in the world to play outside, play deeply and creatively
without adult obstruction, and to pursue his own unique creative
interests. But I really do worry about the long-term impact of playing
violent video games and exposure to violent media on a mind as young
as his. I'm also concerned about the emotional and physical health
impacts of kids spending so much time in front of the screen and not
outside, and this is something we have long struggled with our son -
95% of the time when he has free choice at home he will stay indoors.

From the research I've done, many Sudbury schools do not have a policy
of limiting violent media content, and on many levels, that makes
sense to me according to Sudbury philosophy. If we are going to trust
our children to make their decisions and follow their interests, why
wouldn't we trust them in this area as well.

What I'm having to realize is that this is MY issue. My son really is
just fine. He has already shown us time and time again that he knows
when something is too much for him. He will not watch certain scenes
in the Harry Potter movies because we have already read the books, and
he knows he does not want to see how those scenes would be portrayed.
He will walk out of the room when such a scene comes on, or ask us to
fast forward. When I as a parent try to control everything (for his
own good, of course), I end up undermining his confidence and ability
to regulate himself.

I have crazy feelings about this, almost daily. I find myself inwardly
very angry when my sweet, happy little boy comes home and tells me he
played Halo again. Inside I'm screaming: "why in the hell am I paying
$370 a month for you to play a video game for 3 days a week that I
would never allow into my own home." I also find myself, if I'm
totally honest, really angry with him - on some level I feel like he
is squandering his freedom on something I find to be so worthless.
But, these are MY issues, not his. I readily admit that there have
been days I've tried to make it his issue, going even as far as
telling him that if he spends this whole year playing video games, it
will be hard for me to send him back in the fall - and yes, I know
this was crappy and horrible of me, but was authentic to how I felt at
the time. My son's reaction was "well, maybe I should bring it up at
school meeting, because I want to keep on going there, and I'd rather
have no video games then not be able to go." Boy did I feel like crap.

So, I truly value the freedom my son is experiencing, and am also
totally challenged and freaked out by it on a daily basis. I go back
and forth between being elated about his opportunity to feeling like I
have totally abdicated all of my parental responsibilities and am
sending him to his doom. If he were using his freedom to, say, go
outside, build a fort, run around, build legos, we'd be totally
elated. And, our own control issues and fears around "screen time"
probably (very likely, definitely) are one of the factors that lead to
him using his time to play Halo. It sucks. And it is wonderful. What a
great crucible for growth this is and will be for us, if we can stand
the angst.

I'd appreciate any support and feedback other parents, alum and
students can give me. Please be gentle on me, this isn't easy stuff.

[Erin Bush]

I really admire your honesty and willingness to put your journey out
there. Have you had a chance to meet any other parents at the school
your son attends? I'm sure they have gone through similar struggles
(parents of older boys who've been at the school awhile would probably
be especially helpful to talk to). And I know some Sudbury schools
have parents' coffees periodically to give parents a chance to meet
informally outside of Assembly meetings and discuss issues. Given the
opportunity, you might also talk to some older students themselves
about their experiences with games.

Also, Sudbury schools aren't a vacuum as far as behavior--if for some
reason a kid does act in a violent way, there are mechanisms for the
community to address that. I read somewhere (I think it was in Mark
McCaig's book about Fairhaven) about a student who was brought before
JC for losing his temper; the JC felt it was connected to his gaming
and banned him from the computer room for a month and he did a lot of
maturing as a result of that process. I do kind of feel like someone
else might have a better or more knowledgeable response though. I'm
an not an authority or anything--I've only visited once at the
semi-local Sudbury school and spent some time talking with students
and staff, and of course read a lot of the literature. Which, by the
way, I highly recommend the Fairhaven school blog as a glimpse into
the regular life of a Sudbury school.

Hope this helps,

Erin

[ejhmama]

Thanks Erin. I really appreciate the Fairhaven story. A staff person
shared that with me as well. JC, and the fact that kids hold each
other accountable is probably the single most compelling aspect of SVM
for me. Our school is brand new, so noone has had their kids at
school longer than a couple of months. However, there is a great
unschooling mama whose 4 kids are now at the school who has shared
some of her journey with her allowing her kids freedom
with their video games. Probably time to get the parents group
rolling at the school - that is something I've been feeling the bug to
do.

[Hilary Tuttle]

My son also started going to Sudbury Valley School when he was 5. He is now 13. I had many of the same concerns as you, and yes it's not easy to give up that control (or feeling of control). In our experience his immersion in violent video games did not poison him as I had feared it may. He was always clear that they were games and had (and has) great fun playing them, usually collectively with friends.

Personality traits he now has that we see as fostered by his attendance at SVS
 Open ability to give and receive affection from his friends.
 Confidence in his own point of view.
 Uncanny understanding of social dynamics.
 Knowledge of his own worth relative to others regardless of age or status.
 Natural freedom to feel and show compassion.
 Willingness to do the hard work required to learn what he doesn't know about what interests him.

I hope this helps

--
Hilary Tuttle
Tuttle Muscular Therapy
173 Mt. Auburn Street
Watertown, MA 02472
(617) 926-4463
http://www.tmtonline.com

[Dianne Cohen]

That's amazing.  I wish we lived in Massachusetts.

 

Dianne

[Amanda Phillips]

I find this fascinating -- thanks for sharing your experience. I feel differently about violent video games, perhaps because Elaine's dad, stepdad, and I grew up playing video games (less graphic but just as violent back then). But I had similar concerns about candy and junk food, which are readily available from either "concession" or from other kids, but which Elaine had not experienced before SudVal -- nutrition is very important to me, and cake, candy, and junk just didn't exist in Elaine's world. I never considered not enrolling her over this issue, but it still bothered me. I ultimately realized that all the wonderful, positive things about SudVal outweighed this one sticking point. And thankfully, my girl has used her freedom wisely -- whatever initial junk food binging she might have done when first exposed (I really don't know because she didn't tell me), she eats pretty healthily now.  

 

On video games, she did go through a phase where she played video games all the time, but she got bored with it eventually. Now she's knitting and reading and climbing trees and whatever, and still plays the occasional video game. (She's even backed off from the highly addicting World of Warcraft.) I think it's important for them to figure this out for themselves: whatever value they find in video games, doing it all the time gets a bit boring and repetitive. They're never going to figure out that it gets boring and repetitive if we take it away from them before they have the chance to figure that out.

 

And in defense of video games, I think there is a lot of value there. Kids learn about plot, character, story arc, conflict, resolution, protagonists, antagonists, archetypal myths, good and evil, problem solving, goal achievement, strategy, teamwork and social skills, hand eye coordination, computers, and much more. It's also an opportunity to talk about the difference between fantasy and reality, which I think most kids get but it can't hurt to discuss. I realize that they might be able to get all these things from nonviolent or less violent video games, but I just wanted to point out that even the violent games have these positive attributes. 

 

And I don't mind the violence, personally, though I understand the arguments against it. I don't want to hijack your thread about freedom & letting go with a discussion about whether violence in video games is harmful, but for the record I'm OK with it.

 

It sounds like you're already figuring out your own answers -- I love that your son preemptively walks out on the Harry Potter scenes that he anticipates will be disturbing to him. I wonder why he can tolerate the violence in a video game over the HP scene? Is the HP scene more violent? (I'd guess not.) Does the HP scene seem more real to him, where the video game is so obviously fantasy? Is it that he's in control of the video game, but not in control of the fate of the film? And why do you accept the violence in HP, but not in a video game? (Not meant to be a criticism -- I'm honestly curious.) Though it's kind of off-topic, I find these questions fascinating.

 

Best, 

Amanda    

[Scott David Gray]

Hi Erin,

    Although I am going to offer a response to your post, and your questions, I would encourage you to seek meaningful answers from the person who conducted your enrollment interview at the school your son attends. My answers are broad and general, but I do not know you, your son, the school, or the specific issues.

    I am a Sudbury Valley School alumnus. Having been a child myself (most people on this list were actually children for some part of their lives!), and having seen lots of children grow up, I have a couple comments.
    My mom and dad were classically liberal parents, in every way except for one. They never cared to exert control over my habits with the radio, the TV, comic books, video games or other so-called violent media. I don't think that it ever crossed their minds, except perhaps when they saw their liberal friends and colleagues banning toy guns or hiding the TV in the top of their bedroom closets (which my parents always found to be laughably naive of their friends).
    There are lots of criticisms that could easily be levied against me (this is not an invitation to do so!), but the notion that I am a violent person or that I am emotionally stunted vis-a-vis violence is not one of them.

    When I was a kid, and now, I never really could understand the notion that playing a video game shoot-em-up, or playing cops and robbers, is analogous to actual violence. When I was a kid playing Monopoly, I never heard adults speak in hushed tones about their fears that I would grow up to be a real estate tycoon or a banker.
    Playing at violence is not the same as violence. Playing at anything is about figuring out that thing, figuring out what the social mores are towards it, and figuring out one's own attitude towards it.

    If, when your child is playing at being a fireman, you actively think that s/he might run into a burning building because of play-born delusions, then yes, you should worry. If, when your child is playing at being a dog, you are actively worried that s/he might run up to and bite the mailman, then yes, you should worry. In either case, your fear amounts to "my child does not actually play -- my child, instead, suffers from psychotic delusions." And, indeed, for such a child, I would keep them well away from violent media. For such a child, I would be forced to seek extensive medical help.
    However, normal children play at all kinds of things that they have no interest in actually doing. It's part of getting a grip on the phenomenon, and understanding it.

    The most important lesson one gets from play is an answer to the question "who has control and power over my life?" If the child grows up knowing that his/her play is entirely his (as long as s/he doesn't intrude on anyone else during her/his play -- such as by being too loud or by actually biting the mailman or actually hitting someone) then s/he will grow up knowing how to handle power emotionally and mentally.
    If the child grows up not feeling control over her/his own play -- because the adults around keep trying to guide his/her own internal mental processes -- then I would worry that s/he would try to exert her/his power in *real* ways (eg with real violence or stealing). And, yes, if the "control" issues end up coming to a head in games that revolve around cooking, I would worry about my child developing an unhealthy/unrealistic attitude towards the kitchen, and if the control issues come to a head in games of violence, I would worry about my child developing an unhealthy/unrealistic attitude towards violence.

    I would strongly recommend a lovely book by Gerard Jones (a comic book author and defender of "violent" media), titled Killing Monsters (2002).

    What are you paying for? For your child to hold his own life in his own hands. For him to be servant to nobody, but equal and respected with everybody. For him to be part of a broad community of respectful people, to share his interests with, and to discuss anything with. The fact that I can use my freedom to go fishing, does not mean that my freedom is worth exactly as much as a day of fishing! For less than $1000 a month, you are letting your son be fully human, and letting him engage in the acts of discovery and play that make us human. That's a bargain at a thousand times the price.

Take care,

Scott David Gray

--
-- Scott David Gray
http://www.sudval.org/

[mzwoggles]

Hi,

I'm new to the model too, though my daughter is much older than your
son. She's 16.

I find this school challenges my parenting skills in very different
ways. I no longer have to bug her about her homework being done, or
how well she did it. That is a beautiful thing! And it's given way to
discussions about much more interesting things - kid-kid interactions,
JC issues, responsibility, choices she makes, choices other kids make.
In some ways this is much harder than homework. There's no single
right answer! Often listening is more important than anything I say.

I would you make a time in your daily routine for discussion with your
son - before bed or on the way home, whatever. For us, it's commute
time. Help him evaluate the choices he made that day. Listen to what
he enjoys and encourage it, suggest other things he could check out.
Anything you're worried about (the videos), explore it with him - why
does he like it? what else could he try that has similar
characteristics that you would be more comfortable with. Let him know
which choices make you happy, which ones you worry about. That's part
of what he will incorporate into his decisions. He's very young for so
much responsibility - he's going to make some poor choices, but that's
all part of the process of growing.

Good luck!
Maryann

[Naomi Bennett]

Scott,
I'm glad you brought up these points about the need for children to play out roles, and that it doesn't necessarily lead to them wanting to do that role.

As an alumni, I'm surprised at the trouble I have making coherent argument to why freedom of play is important (specifically with sex and violence). I'm sure this is partly because it is all that I have ever known.

I'm finding myself in an odd situation now, I work with at risk urban youth, and I'm being put under the restriction that they can't play with guns in any way, shape, or form. I understand these kids come from potentially violent environments, but I believe even more that they need to explore playing with 'guns' (they make them out of legos) and that this is how they process what is going on in their world (whether its the media, their communities, or their home life).

I also find it funny that I can have a much more intelligent, open discussion about the restriction of gun play with my 7 year old students, then with my boss.

N

*********************************

Naomi Bennett, R.Y.T.
Director - Performer - Teacher
morni...@yahoo.com
http://www.notjusttheater.org


--- On Sun, 11/1/09, Scott David Gray <sg...@sudval.org> wrote:

[Karen Hyams]

This is a very exciting time of growth for you and your family, and this is just the first of many challenges you are going to go through with your son's school. And whatever peace you make with this issue will be disturbed again some day, maybe more than once. Unless you are some Super Sudbury Parent, in which case you can come offer advice to the rest of us when we freak out.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for my son to get bored of the games if I were you. Maybe he will eventually "realize" that they aren't that interesting, as some kids do. But he might want to play them for a long time, or his interest will wax and wane over the years. In truth, these games can be interesting, especially when they become really social. My son's year at school is shaping up to be his best so far. He's got a really nice, tight group of friends and their center is the XBox. He's doing other things, too, but that's really important to him. And I feel that it is unfair of me to try to parse his gaming to extract some reassuring list of accomplishments.  He does not play to further a long-range plan, he does it purely for the joy of it.

But for the reassurance, he is 14, and delightful. He's been a Sudbury kid since he was 7 and has been a gamer the whole time. He's not remotely violent or antisocial or awkward or unhealthy. He knows how to read, etc. He has a lot of friends outside the school and gets along with lots of different types of people. He's turned out OK so far.

At my kid's school, man, they swear like sailors, even some of the five-year-olds. Let us know how you do with that.

Karen Hyams

---

[Tane Akamatsu]

I totally resonate with Hilary Tuttle's analysis of video gaming, but also
with your alarm at how your son is spending his time. I, too, went through
the same "OMG, why am I paying thousands of dollars a year for you to play
video games when you can do this at home for free (and where I can control
which games you play)?"

My son started at a Sudbury model school (The Beach School) when he was 11
and stayed until it sadly closed its doors when he was 15. During that
time, he was probably the most avid gamer, although he had plenty of
company, mostly boys. And yes, Halo was BIG TIME. He repeatedly assured me
that he knew the difference between fantasy and reality, and NEVER did I see
problems at home caused by his playing of this game. Any problems around
gaming at school were mostly about mess -- eating, leaving food wrappers,
not tidying up at the end of the day, that sort of thing. Could happen
around any activity, not just gaming.

Moreover, I'm rather proud of the fact that he, along with a couple of the
older boys, convinced SM to release money to buy an XBOX. They researched
prices, packages, brought it up at SM, worked on the media policy (games,
movies, computer content), and were at every meeting that "gaming" came up.
When one of the younger students tried to get Halo3 banned, he was in there
like a dirty shirt, arguing why it shouldn't be banned. The motion was
defeated and Halo 3 reigned (Rats!). But so did Guitar Hero (which started
him on to playing guitar; he'll be in a recital playing his own composition
with his super-guitar-teacher soon) and Super Smash Brothers (if that's not
violent, I don't know what is). And I was very pleasantly surprised at how
social gaming is. He learned about teamwork and holding up one's
commitments. He gets quite annoyed when he feels he's the only one pulling
his weight, not just around gaming, but around any activity. Therefore, he
always makes sure that he's pulling his weight. Not a bad thing to learn.

One of the slightly younger boys (I think he was around 10 or 11 at the
time) hadn't been allowed to play Halo, but made several motions over time
that he should be allowed. The SM finally allowed him on probation to play,
with the proviso that if his behaviour deteriorated, he would be in JC and
probably banned from playing. They never had a problem with him around this
issue.

The SM eventually came up with a media policy that I thought was brilliant,
this after many many versions and discussions. So I love your son's
response: "well, maybe I should bring it up at school meeting, because I

want to keep on going there, and I'd rather have no video games then not be

able to go." This shows that he GETS Sudbury. He'll be fine.

Tane Akamatsu

----- Original Message -----
From: "ejhmama" <rach...@comcast.net>
To: "Discuss Sudbury Model" <discuss-su...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 6:10 PM
Subject: [DSM] New Sudbury Parent processing son's exposure to violent media
content


>

[mzwoggles]

quick clarification-- A poor decision for your son may be a good
decision for another kid. My daughter knows that spending all day in
the quiet room is not healthy for her, a decision other parents might
find brilliant!

Also, thanks to everyone who commented on the video games. While it's
not an issue for my daughter I've struggled with gaming limits on my
teen son. He doesn't go to SVS, but if he did, he could decide to play
all day. I feel like we have very different standards for the two
kids. So I've given him more responsibility and freedom to make his
own decisions. To the goal of getting comfortable with that, this
discussion has been very helpful :)

Cheers,
Maryann

[ejhmama]

Thank you for all of the thoughtful, compelling, and compassionate
replies. You are giving me great stuff to think about.

[ewoo]

First - I love what Scott wrote. Very clear.

I would add another component to this discussion. I would bet the
other kids know all about Halo. For your son to make social connection
with them, he's got to figure it out. May take a couple of months. He
can't have coversations with them about a significant part of their
lives until he "gets it".

My son play Wizard 101. I just started playing too. Now I have tons of
interesting strategy talks with him that I could not have had before.
Because I play, I understand how much he and the other kids learn from
the game. I respect the time spent instead of rolling my eyes.

Plus, I enjoy the game! And your son is enjoying Halo. It really is
all good. And I'd be willing to bet that he won't bite the mailman!

Elaine


> ... about the long-term impact of playing

[PamLortieParadis]

WOW. Very amazing original post and responses too. I agree that
ejhmama's honesty was beautiful and will most likely carry her through
this challenge. I especially loved this: "It sucks. And it is

wonderful. What a great crucible for growth this is and will be for
us, if we can stand the angst".

So the Sudbury parents get to have their own great learning
experiences too eh?
This subject touches my heart because I raised a gamer son that hardly
knows outdoors exists. [I DID NOT know about Sudbury schools or their
educational philosophies until 6 days ago!!!! A dear friend is
seriously considering one of these schools for her 8 year old son.
That's how I began reading & reading & having a strong response... I
am mourning too that my son didn't get this freedom and responsibility
that he was trying to tell us he wanted!]

Interestingly, today I was trying to imagine how I would have filled
my days at SVS if I had been there as a girl..... this is what I
pictured:

~messing around with the pond
~playing with the littler kids
~asking for help to build a tree house
~doing the school laundry and hanging it outside to dry
~making some good friends with the girls and chasing boys to get
kisses!

Then I wonder: what would my son have done there if he could do
anything? Gone outside much? Nope, doubt it. He would have played
video games MOST of his hours, for years maybe.

But that freedom of choice, freedom to experience the results of his
choices, and truly RESPECTFUL atmosphere would have shifted his
relationship to his "screen addiction" (as I saw it) to one that
brought self-knowledge and maturity eventually instead of rebellion
and shame.

I think your 5 year old gaming son is in the right place. And the
growth you are already experiencing yourself is invaluable. Like
knowing this is all really YOUR issue. Carry on and know be grateful
for how lucky you are!! I never got the chance to put my son in such
an environment.






"Screen time" was a huge