[Discuss EUDEC] Democratic Education - a human rights issue?

[Michael Sappir]

At the IDEC in Israel, I suggested (see video: http://wp.me/ppHAO-6j)
that we should be emphasizing that democratic education is a human
rights issue. I think this is an important point, but I'm sure some
people disagree with it.

What do you think? Is this an important aspect of democratic
education? Please share your views.

Cheers,
Michael

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[Christel Hartkamp]

We believe so.

 

 

2010/4/26 Michael Sappir <msa...@eudec.org>

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[Martin Wilke]

Michael Sappir schrieb:

> At the IDEC in Israel, I suggested (see video: http://wp.me/ppHAO-6j)
> that we should be emphasizing that democratic education is a human
> rights issue. I think this is an important point, but I'm sure some
> people disagree with it.
>
> What do you think? Is this an important aspect of democratic
> education?

Yes. My main criticism of traditional schools is that they violate the
human rights of young people. I support democratic education because it
respects their human rights.

Martin Wilke

> Please share your views.
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
>
>


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[Dragana Boljesic]

I share your opinion. As someone who works in a state regulated system/school, I know that human/children rights are violated on a daily basis. I think democratic education offers a healthy, common sense and anarchic framework for respect of human rights.

 

That is very important and is  essential part of democratic education. At least that is how I understand it to be.

Dragana

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[Aurelien Giraud]

I totally agree.

Slaves had to fight for their rights. Women had to fight for their
rights. We have to fight for Children and bring a shift in people's consciousness.

For me democratic education is a very good way to respect some of children's human rights.

Aurelien

[Leonard Turton]

Children's Rights 

It's not a simple issue and can be open to a lot of misinterpretation and it's one of the things that media can blow out of proportion ... because it's very easy to warp it into an extreme self centered philosophy of spoiling children to their own detriment  ... even tho participation in democratic community actually demands a high level of sharing and shared responsibility. 

It is a sitting duck phrase and has been used to media trash progressive education of many kinds for years. The thing also ...  is Children's Rights is bigger than education ... it's HUGE ... so its a slippery kind of thing to define us by ... 

Best use another phrase actually...

Society in general is not ready to equate women's rights with children's rights or to slaves ...  kids in western societies do not appear to be slaves ... they appear to run riot with money and goods and free behaviours of all kinds ... 

People will think that teaching responsibility by free choice of action, practicing democracy in a democratic state,( which people think nowadays are not democratic enough), taking part in community, not wasting time on very irrelevant curricula ... which all adults have suffered and so understand ...   etc etc makes sense ( even tho we are describing free schools). But the PHRASE child rights is very problematic to a whole section of the adult population.

Child Rights has been used to force children to attend school ... for their own good and the good of society ... 'children have the RIGHT to be in school for so many years of their life' ...  and probably in a whole lot of the world where there is child labour and street children and grinding poverty this is a humans rights issue in the opposite direction from ours. Years ago the so called developed countries introduced compulsory education to prevent children from being abused by the industrial revolution... before using it to train worker robots for Henry Ford production lines.

Dem Ed and free school are very much a middle and upper class invention working in societies with good infrastructure and generally a social safety net, life long chances for learning, with, generally, parents who can look out for their kids until they are up and ready to go out in the world and so on. 

Child Rights in education needs to be, to a certain extent, contextual. If I was an uneducated labourer in a poverty stricken environment and my kid had the chance to go to school and attend some years of reading and writing and obtain job skills to prevent him from experiencing my grinding poverty and illiteracy I would want him to go and put up with a whole lot so that he could get the benefits, regardless of how undemocratic a school system was offered. I would be happy if the school was progressive and caring but probably be very concerned if my kid played all day in a free school manner for the few short years literacy was offered to him.

But in developed nations this idea of Child's Rights has sometimes been used to prevent the next logical step in educational evolution ... democratic education where children are allowed from an early age to experience and learn democratic participation and the crafting of their own lives and environments. This is a power play, a control system at work.

I've never, in any interview about free schools used the phrase child rights because I always could think of better explanations that I knew would not ignite extreme misinterpretations and reactions.

So it's complex, both from an image as well as a real life point of view.

Leonard

[Michael Sappir]

Hi Leonard,

I definitely meant Human Rights, not Children's Rights. The idea that children need a separate set of rights from adults (or an extra, additional set) seems to me to really go against what democratic education is about. Democratic education is, however, about human rights; it is about the right of human beings (young ones, as it were) to determine their own life, make their own decisions, and have an active role in shaping the community they live in. This is what I mean.
--
Michael Sappir
http://sappir.net

[Leonard Turton]

Ok :)

I just jumped to that conclusion cause here in the UK there is a significant Children's Rights Movement ... CRAE ... Children's Rights Alliance For England that promotes the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child ... which is a big deal ... there are something like 54 Articles ... the ones on education are:

Article 28

• Every child has the right to free primary education.
• Governments must encourage secondary education, making it available and accessible to every child and young person
• Access to higher education must be based on the ability to benefit from it.
• Governments must make sure children and young people get information about education.
• Governments must encourage regular school attendance.

• Governments must make sure that school discipline protects the dignity of children and young people, and is in line with their rights in this Convention – so no hitting or humiliation.

Article 29

• agree that the aim of education is to help the fullest possible growth of the child’s or young person's personality, talents and mental and physical abilities.

• Education must help children and young people:
  • respect human rights
  • respect their parents
  • respect their and others' culture, language and values
  • have self-respect
  • respect the environment.
  SO ... this is where I was coming from... for instance, as you can see, state school education would agree wholeheartedly with all of that ... cause it's very morphable language ... and I don't see much there about democracy ... 
  
  
  So it's a muddle
  
  
  Leonard

[IngmarB]

Hey Michael.
No matter if you say Children's Rights or Human Rights, the problem
pointed out by leonard still remains the same.
You can't use the phrase "Human Rights" for democratic education in
public relations, cause its very much to offensive and would lead to
massive misunterstanding. Although your point is clear and i would be
disposed to accept what you "mean", your words wont have that message
for many people "out there". Maybe one may refer to some issues of
Human Rights, but Human Rights as such is, in public,not to be used in
terms of democratic education - in order to make those people in
charge listen to what you are saying. You would seem very radical and
people in charge don't really want to talk to radical organisations.
Though that should not hinder you from talking free, cause that's the
idea behind all that we are talking about, remember: Human Rights, as
used in the news today (whatsoever kind of media) is more linked to
countries like China, or the never ending civil wars in Africa etc.
People than would point out, that children in modern industrialized
countries have all Human Rights that children in China or elsewhere
have need of and I think at this point the discussion would be very
much over, cause that phrase "Human Rights" is a MUCH to sensitive
topic!
Could you try to find different words to express the same? Paraphrase
it, whatever.

Ingmar

[Michael Sappir]

Actually the shock effect is part of the reason I think we should be emphasizing this.

Democratic education looks to many people like a luxury. It looks like something for rich people to do for their kids because it's nice and trendy.

However, this is not the case. Democratic education is about extending the rights that are supposed to belong to every citizen in Europe to the youngest citizens. It's both a matter of principle, and a practical part of developing a successful 21st-century society.

It should not be the main point in our public relations right now, I agree with that much. But I think we should be clearer about this, and yes, shock some people, make them argue vehemently, let them think we are crazy. Some will. Some already do! But some might think about it a little and realize that yeah, what we're doing to children right now is not okay, the way we treat children in society is not equal and it's damaging, and that has to change.

Spreading change is not easy. But it is necessary.

--
Michael Sappir
http://sappir.net

[Michael Sappir]

(Sorry for going into fancy "inspiring speech" language over there, couldn't help myself. :P)

--
Michael Sappir
http://sappir.net

[IngmarB]

I dont know how to express that one in english: "sie mit ihren eigenen
Waffen schlagen" "to beat them with their own weapons" (?!?)
But that's pretty much my idea: change without people even recognizing
it...but lets discuss that face to face :P

[IngmarB]

I mean, never mind you "fancy "inspiring speech" language" i really
appreciate that. i really got and liked your point, but i made the
experience that the "non-offensive" way can be much more
effective...but that's a more personal thing

[Dragana Boljesic]

I agree with you Michael. To spread the change you have to be the change. If we are not going to call a spade a spade... who else will?

Some people do not question values and freedoms and believe that children are getting exactly what they need in compulsory education that the states provide. It is their right and an obligation at the same time to get the education - the kind that is offered and organised by the state. They need to be told that it does not have to be that way and that it is wrong to do it that way. Not just for kids who have smart and sensitive parents who will look into alternatives, or who are lucky enough to have parents who say that they will try and start a different school (Yelena and Lana never stop asking when the school that I am trying to open will OPEN, because they are suffering on a daily basis in the state school they attend and we all suffer because of the ridiculous amount of homework, memorising and drill that they have to endure). They have no freedom or choice granted at that school. They can not make any decisions,  they do not even get to decide where they sit. Sometimes they are forced to sit with kids that bully them... and so on...the list is long. Vionence and bullying is on the rise in schools and schools can not do anything about it. Kids are angry and they channel that anger towards their classmates or towards the teachers... schools are no longer (if they ever were) nice places to be... generations are being demaged this way and when you know what is going on... is it OK not to speak out.

That is why I get excited when I read articles written by psychologists that go in favour of democratic education as a model that gives children a chance to be schooled in a better, more humane way. Perhaps those are good arguments that we could use.

Peter Grey writes...

"Another Way

Anyone who looks honestly at the experiences of students at Sudbury model democratic schools and of unschoolers--where freedom, play, and self-directed exploration prevail--knows that there is another way. We don't need to drive kids crazy to educate them. Given freedom and opportunity, without coercion, young people educate themselves. They do so joyfully, and in the process they develop intrinsic values, personal self-control, and emotional wellbeing. That's the overriding message of the whole series of essays in this blog. It's time for society to take an honest look."

http://www.psychologytoday.com/em/37511

I think it is wise to be careful and diplomatic and choose the words carefully. Human rights is big and can get us in dire straits. I am sure that we can find a way round this that will be acceptable and powerful.

 

Dragana Boljesic-Knezevic prof.
EUDEC Council

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From: Michael Sappir <msa...@eudec.org>
To: discus...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 28 April, 2010 9:47:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Discuss EUDEC] Re: Democratic Education - a human rights issue?