So, it seems like recruiters are definitely sniffing around for 'devops
X'. Food for thought.
P.
--
Philip J. Hollenback
www.hollenback.net
@philiph
> Back to the discussion of calling yourself a 'devops': I put devops in
> my job title on linkedin a couple weeks back (devops manager). Since
> then I've gotten several pretty solid recruiter queries for exactly that
> term.
>
> So, it seems like recruiters are definitely sniffing around for 'devops
> X'. Food for thought.
Never underestimate the power of a fully loaded buzzword.
I don't mean that to be snarky, just a recognition of reality.
Sent from my iPhone
:)
To add a bit of data myself both on my blog post[1] and on a linkedin discussion[2] I've had a few recruiters jumping in that did know their thing and were looking for the real stuff, but couldn't find it. Having spent quite some time with a few of them I must say that if you take a step back and look at their job it's a hard task without a term of reference. They told me they looked for syadmins and in most of those cases they weren't getting what they wanted (more CI, Cloud etc). That is not to say that some recruiters don't play stupid keyword matching games and don't go beyond that, or that some sysadmins don't know about CI/Cloud, but the experience of these people seems to confirm Devops is a useful qualifier in a job title for both ends.
More in a blog post coming soon on your screens if you decide to click on the link.
cheers,
Spike
[1] http://www.spikelab.org/devops-job-title/
[2] apparently the group is members only and I can't share the discussion, fail :/ , but if you are a member look for 'What do you think about DevOps as part of a job title?'
--
http://www.spikelab.org/
http://twitter.com/spikelab
http://uk.linkedin.com/in/spikemorelli
devops is a culture not a job.
It is absolutely no sense to call yourself "devops x".
Best Regards,
Guillaume FORTAINE
Why?
Why is devops a culture and not a job?
Why can it not also be a job, a department, a team?
Paul
Development Operations Technical Lead
Development Operations Systems Engineer
Systems Engineer (devops)
Development Operations Engineer (not common at all).
I personally do not believe that devops is a culture, or if it is: I
am a culture too. I am an culture? I am the culture.
I am a development operations specialized systems engineer; Chef is my
rifle. All this being said, I can identify non-devops system
administrators pretty quickly -- what does that mean?
--AJ
radu
If putting 'devops' in front of my title makes it so that I get more
high-quality queries from recruiters, I'm all for it.
P.
> > > > www.hollenback.net (http://www.hollenback.net)
> > > > @philiph
There is a very simple reason devops is not a title. Because devops is
not something you do. Not only should devops NOT be a title, it should
be avoided. Let me paint for you an entirely real scenario that I
experienced personally.
Devops Team was created (of which I was a part). Our responsibility
was to do all the "devops"-y things we all talk about. The SPECIFIC
reason that the team had to be created was due to political isses
around titles and departments and whatnot.
What was the end result?
Bitching from the "operations" team that "devops" broke something.
Bitching from the "development" team that "devops" broke something.
Things I actually heard:
"That's not my responsibility. Devops did that" - An operations person
"Devops broke that code" - A developer
Channeling a little Lord Cope here "That's fucking bullshit".
By creating a "devops" team or giving "devops" titles you've now
created yet another bureaucracy. A whole NEW group of people to blame.
Another scapegoat. At best, that's all you've done. At worst you've
created actual animosity between folks you were trying to get to work
together.
It's a path of failure. Yes, Devops is kind of a fucked up name. It's
already apparent when people are like "well now we need SecDevOps or
QADevOps or <insert some mashup of two different departments>.
The practices, cultural message, behaviors, toolchain or whatever that
makes up what we call DevOps should be the norm not the exception. If
you have lazy people who don't want to level up, they need to go. If
you have people who can't get on board with the shifting world of IT,
they are toxic to you and everyone else at your company.
I get that people have egos and need to feel unique and special.
That's your responsibility. If you need a special title to tell you
how you should be doing your job, then I have a bit of warning for
you:
http://despair.com/motivation.html
--
John E. Vincent
http://about.me/lusis
If you created a "DevOps" team but kept separate "operations" and
"development" teams... then you're doing it wrong. :-)
-Jan
You've obviously never worked in a company with more than, say, 10
people ;) I only partially kid. It's unrealistic and naive to think
that an existing company of any size can mash two teams up like that
at the drop of a hat. Let's not even consider the fact that the person
managing operations may be grossly unqualified to manage developers.
But you're proving my point. The reason devops isn't a title, team or
department is that it doesn't just apply to devops. It's about
aligning ALL of IT with the business - not just development as agile
promised.
What about someone who works at a company with NO development team?
Yes those places exist. Would you tell the guy who manages all of his
infra with puppet that he's not a "devops" because he's not
interacting with a development team? I would say he's more 'devops'
than most.
--AJ
--AJ
Maybe there are two separate things here: the title you put on yourself
online so recruiters can find you, versus the title you use in your job.
I know I don't formally call myself a devops manager at work.
P.
1. Sure, IMO DevOps is in its origin a term for the culture of
developer/operations collaboration, or even more profoundly the
incorporation of operations into the actual company's value chain as
opposed to being some weird trolls in the basement kept around for
"cost of doing business" reasons. John, you're right to say some
places don't have devs. One of the ways I initially got our ops team
a seat at the big boy table at NI was by approaching the business
directly to accomplish projects for them that didn't really require a
developer team - they were just used to handing any implementation to
the devs.
1a. However, diluting DevOps into "it means everyone collaborates
with everyone" or "it's IT aligning with the business" is
counterproductive. Those ideas have been around a while and for some
reason have failed to produce the results that DevOps is. DevOps is
specifically focused on operations and for a reason.
2. However, it's also evolved into a reasonably defined skill set
that those of us who actually hire people want to identify and
attract and recruit. Posting for "DevOps Systems Engineer" is a
signal that significantly improves the fit of the talent that's
responding to postings to the kind of job we have (which is, you
know, devopsey). And it's more than "I touched the puppet", it's a
way of working. In the end, I need to post a job someone will see
and think "oh, that's my deal, I should apply" and I need to read
someone's resume and quickly determine "I want to talk to them."
Concise words have power in that domain.
3. Large companies. Well, actually, qualifying "Operations"
potentially as "Developer Operations" is helpful, as we have Sales
Operations and Content Operations and about a dozen other
"Operations" teams in any org of any size. On the multiple groups
problem - before we had the word "DevOps," at NI we had a "Web Admin"
team that sat between the dev teams and the by-tech infrastructure
teams (unix, windows, network, etc.). And that was painful. We
weren't sufficiently aligned with/embedded in the dev teams, and the
infra teams couldn't understand why a working Web system didn't
magically emerge from them just tossing all their technical parts
into the mixer. However, the reason it was difficult was because we
didn't understand how to effectively collaborate with the devs, and
the infrastructure teams didn't want to collaborate. So? It's like
agile doesn't work if the devs and product managers are oppositional
c*ckknockers instead of working together for the common good.
So yes, we could call it "a collaboration focused approach to both
altering the way we do operations to adopt some best practices coming
out of the development world, and integrating better with partner
teams with an understanding that we are trying to bring value to the
business" - but some Belgian guy came up with a less tongue-twisty
way to say that.
Ernest
the title you put on yourself
online so recruiters can find you
Job titles are all about marketing.
Either you're marketing to your colleagues (and maybe other people at
work), or you're marketing to the rest of the world (probably for some
nefarious reason like finding a job or being noticed by the internet).
So having different "job titles" for different audiences can make
sense. If you're a company then having a third "job title" that you
use in adverts might be handy too.
I definitely change what my "job title" is in different contexts at
work depending on who I want to listen to me most at the time.
G
--
Gareth Rushgrove
Web Geek
Oh Guillaume, look what you've done.
--
Asega
Jez,
You're absolutely right. That was almost exactly the situation. The
person who was driving this had no choice in the matter either. The
need for a distinct team was both driven by corporate policy AND by
the need to pull a subset of folks out of the "muck" to focus on these
changes full time.
As I said, it didn't work originally for multiple reasons. Things
finally panned out but this slide deck was actually inspired by my
experiences there:
http://devops-culture-hurdles.heroku.com/#1
Having said all that, the fellow who was much of the driving force
behind that is actually on this list.
On Mar 3, 1:41 pm, John Vincent <lusis....@gmail.com> wrote:Devops Team was created (of which I was a part). Our responsibilitywas to do all the "devops"-y things we all talk about. The SPECIFICreason that the team had to be created was due to political issesaround titles and departments and whatnot.
As someone once said to me, "why would you try to solve a silo problem
by creating a new silo?"
I think that in certain situations - especially where there are
political issues in play - creating a "devops team" can be a good
tactical move. Unfortunately the kind of organizations where this is
true are the ones least likely to actually ever achieve the goals of
devops culture (rapid, incremental software delivery, resilient
systems, useful data etc.)
I can't speak for Jez but I can speak about general human nature in
large corporations (having sadly been a part of them).
One of the problems that we say devops tries to solve is 'throwing
shit over the wall'. The reasons people do that in the first place are
varied but I'd like to think it boils down to basic human nature:
People pass the buck
My experience has been, and continues to be, that I hear things such as
- "I don't do that. I'm not a devops"
- "That's a devops problem"
- "Devops did that"
- "I want to be a devops"
I've heard all of these things in the last two years including recently.
By attaching the label, you give people an easy target. But EVEN
ignoring that part of human nature, there's the resentment it creates.
What *IS* a devops? Is it some super secret ivory tower department
that issues edicts from on high? I've had someone describe it to me
that way at a previous company - "Devops says we have to use puppet".
Now you have two problems.
> I've spoken to several individuals who in their outward facing
> communications broadcast their devops affiliation in their job title while
> internally to their organisation they treat the subject differently, either
> that being just dissemination under that term or avoiding the term
> altogether and focusing on the principles. I'm one of those individuals and
> personally I'd love the help of this community to understand if and why that
> approach will eventually lead to troubles.
>
Let's take a different approach first. Would you accept that something
is a "devops" tool? I wouldn't because devops isn't a label for tools
(I'm going to let the obvious joke slide here). How many products have
we seen REbranded in the last year as "For DevOps" or "a DevOps tool"?
I've lost count.
It simply doesn't make sense any more than saying "Foo is an agile
tool". You don't hire "agiles" or "waterfalls" so why would you hire
"devops"?
As to the specific thing you mentioned about inward vs. outward. I
find that even more insulting and two-faced.
I'm okay with people saying "we practice devops [methodologies]" or
"we grok devops". It still feels wrong but to say "I'm a devop[s]"
sounds unnatural to me. It just doesn't make sense. Devops is a way of
thinking about your environment and your business. It doesn't change
the underlying responsibility of your job. If it does, you've created
YAS (yet another silo). SysAdmins SHOULD be cooperating with
development and vice versa. Automation, metrics, testing - all of
these things that fall under the purview of the "DevOps" as a concept
but that doesn't change what your job is. Your responsibility as a
developer is, broadly speaking, to write code. Your responsibility as
a sysadmin, is broadly speaking, to keep shit running. The WAY you do
those jobs doesn't constitute a whole new title.
I really do get that companies are trying to find the right people.
What I don't get is this idea that "we have to use devops as a title
to filter candidates because we get so much crap" in one breath and
"It's hard to find people" in the next. Quite frankly I wouldn't go to
work with a company that wants a "devop" because half the time I've
talked to them, they want someone to do two jobs.
You can be a jack of all trades and you can even be a master of some
of them. That doesn't mean you have the TIME or ABILITY to do them
both with the level of attention they deserve. Please don't get me
wrong. I'm all for wearing many hats and doing everything possible to
make the companies I'm a part of succeed but I think part of devops is
about restoring balance to the Force. We went ass over tea kettle and
built huge silos as an overreaction and now we're trying to fix that.
So what I'm really trying to say is "devops" doesn't make sense as a
title unless your responsibilities somehow change. And if you change
them, you're just creating a new silo, breeding contempt and standing
up new straw men for people to attack.
You jest I'm sure, but I think you also allude to something that a lot
of people that have been around a while believe. Many of the best
practices and methodologies of the "devops lifestyle" have been around
for a long time, especially in smaller shops where people have had to
wear many hats. What intrigues me most about the devops movement is that
I view it as an opportunity to open the eyes of engineering shops that
have gone in the direction of specialization and compartmentalization.
It shows them there is another way. Complexity is going up and with it
organizations need to embrace more complex relationships among their
producers. This Devops stuff can help realize this. To me though, it is
just good engineering practices with a new name.
Call me fascinated as well. I'm a long time ops person. It is
interesting that as companies mature they lose that "devops" magic.
Perhaps something about people wearing fewer hats which leads to tunnel
vision. (or something)
> I am uncomfortable with it as a title. Or a Microsoft certification. Or
> a college degree. Or a shiny sticker you slap on the outside of a box of
> CDs that says "now with DevOps!"
+1 Its a philosophical thing not a bullet point.
Sadly best practices are not always the best or practiced ;)
>You jest I'm sure, but I think you also allude to something that a
>lot of people that have been around a while believe. Many of the
>best practices and methodologies of the "devops lifestyle" have been
>around for a long time, especially in smaller shops where people
>have had to wear many hats. What intrigues me most about the devops
>movement is that I view it as an opportunity to open the eyes of
>engineering shops that have gone in the direction of specialization
>and compartmentalization. It shows them there is another way.
>Complexity is going up and with it organizations need to embrace
>more complex relationships among their producers. This Devops stuff
>can help realize this. To me though, it is just good engineering
>practices with a new name.
So let me argue against this a bit.
This is the same argument used about agile and about cloud and now
about DevOps (and has been used for innumerable shifts in the
computing landscape over time).
Sure, a lot of these techniques have been around for a long
time. Chef and puppet predate DevOps. Collaboration predates Agile.
Doing elastic provisioning predates the cloud. Object oriented
programming was invented in like the 1970s. There was the Internet
before the Web. "Oh, it's just doing it *right*. I've always done it right."
However, that is only true in the most uninteresting of ways. So
what? Let's posit you were an early adopter and the whole DevOps
movement hasn't taught you anything new you didn't already know. Now
that it's "crossing the chasm" and becoming a more widely accepted
set of best practices, pooh-poohing it as "nothing new" is
technohipsterism of the most extreme sort.
Not to bag on you, but I've heard this for years about cloud
computing now, and before that about the Web, and my reaction is
always "Yeah, sure, whatever."
Ernest
> At 03:41 PM 3/6/2012, Matt Ryanczak wrote:
>
>> You jest I'm sure, but I think you also allude to something that a lot of people that have been around a while believe. Many of the best practices and methodologies of the "devops lifestyle" have been around for a long time, especially in smaller shops where people have had to wear many hats. What intrigues me most about the devops movement is that I view it as an opportunity to open the eyes of engineering shops that have gone in the direction of specialization and compartmentalization. It shows them there is another way. Complexity is going up and with it organizations need to embrace more complex relationships among their producers. This Devops stuff can help realize this. To me though, it is just good engineering practices with a new name.
>
> So let me argue against this a bit.
>
> This is the same argument used about agile and about cloud and now about DevOps (and has been used for innumerable shifts in the computing landscape over time).
>
> Sure, a lot of these techniques have been around for a long time. Chef and puppet predate DevOps. Collaboration predates Agile. Doing elastic provisioning predates the cloud. Object oriented programming was invented in like the 1970s. There was the Internet before the Web. "Oh, it's just doing it *right*. I've always done it right."
When I started my development career the ops people were some of the most skilled coders in the company. They were the guys you went to tune your application or database use, or alert when the app was going to take a significant performance hit so they could preempt it. There has been a sharp decline in workplace expectation of this knowledge in the last 15 years or so for operations folks. This can lead to other engineers thinking that operations people are dumb or janitors or just coders that aren't skilled enough to write <x> applications or w/e.
Now, this comes off wrong because it is 100% abrasive, I understand that and I hope I'm not faulted for it, I'll address it in a few here. :)
That said, I think if you really look out there you'll find I'm "close enough" for a multitude of workplace environments, close enough to make the argument that DevOps is not about moving forward but returning to the past. We're getting back to skilled code and returning to being in that consultation/communicative role instead of the person who sits in the corner and only 2 people in a 100 person company know what s/he actually does.
I got into ops because I wanted out of application development, which always turns heads. I interviewed at a few places last year trying to find straight devops/ops work (I would have accepted either). I have a very web-application-senior-lead-type resume. "You want *in* ops?", the applications engineers say. They're stunned. They don't understand how I consider ops a step up from app development. Most of my career has (intentionally) been at small shops were I get to wear a lot of hats. I like systems programming and automation, and I've had to step around my fair share of ops people who simply do-not-get-it to get the job done.
We've all worked with them so let's not pretend they don't exist.
Anyhow, going off on a tangent. The point is, for me, devops is more about returning to AwesomeOps, the kind you can go to to get shit done, and less about the kind of ops that have 12 certifications and no projects to show for it. It's about destroying (read: absolutely obliterating) the culture that sitting in a corner reading slashdot all day because the servers are up makes you a good ops person. And the result has largely been positive from where I sit: I know of several "hard ops" people that are actually picking up C, python, ruby, CM tools and all sorts of other stuff because that's where the skill set and the salaries are going and they need to remain competitive.
This is GOOD. We're working our way back to the ops guy that has 12 years of C and Systems Programming experience and heading away from the MCSE and RedHat jockeys that barely know their tools and take 12 weeks to configure four systems. (Disclaimer: there are plenty of redhat users and mcse's that are not this way. But we all know what I'm talking about, I hope.) We're eroding the "us vs. them" attitude between ops and dev teams. This is all absolutely beautiful.
Maybe I'm saying the obvious but this thread doesn't make me feel like I am, so I hope this wasn't too painful. :)
-Erik
You captured my feelings pretty well anyway.
My experience has been, and continues to be, that I hear things such as
- "I don't do that. I'm not a devops"
- "That's a devops problem"
- "Devops did that"
- "I want to be a devops"
I've heard all of these things in the last two years including recently.
Let's take a different approach first. Would you accept that something
is a "devops" tool?
How many products have
we seen REbranded in the last year as "For DevOps" or "a DevOps tool"?
I've lost count.
As to the specific thing you mentioned about inward vs. outward. I
find that even more insulting and two-faced.
I'm okay with people saying "we practice devops [methodologies]" or
"we grok devops". It still feels wrong but to say "I'm a devop[s]"
sounds unnatural to me. It just doesn't make sense. Devops is a way of
thinking about your environment and your business. It doesn't change
the underlying responsibility of your job.
If it does, you've created
YAS (yet another silo). SysAdmins SHOULD be cooperating with
development and vice versa. Automation, metrics, testing - all of
these things that fall under the purview of the "DevOps" as a concept
but that doesn't change what your job is. Your responsibility as a
developer is, broadly speaking, to write code. Your responsibility as
a sysadmin, is broadly speaking, to keep shit running. The WAY you do
those jobs doesn't constitute a whole new title.
I really do get that companies are trying to find the right people.
What I don't get is this idea that "we have to use devops as a title
to filter candidates because we get so much crap" in one breath and
"It's hard to find people" in the next. Quite frankly I wouldn't go to
work with a company that wants a "devop" because half the time I've
talked to them, they want someone to do two jobs.
I'm all for wearing many hats and doing everything possible to
make the companies I'm a part of succeed but I think part of devops is
about restoring balance to the Force. We went ass over tea kettle and
built huge silos as an overreaction and now we're trying to fix that.
So what I'm really trying to say is "devops" doesn't make sense as a
title unless your responsibilities somehow change. And if you change
them, you're just creating a new silo, breeding contempt and standing
up new straw men for people to attack.
I'm not pooh-poohing anything. In fact, just the opposite. I'm embracing
this movement and am genuinely excited at the prospect of large scale
reinvention of technical operations and the role it plays in engineering
and business as a whole. I do believe that there are many old ideas and
methodologies at play though. Some of that has been relegated to small
shops because of the drive toward specialization in larger enterprises.
Now these big enterprises are paying attention and there is an
opportunity get them to embrace a better way of doing things. Whether
those ways are old or new is probably not relevant.
Actually, I am pooh-poohing one thing, I don't believe that devops is a
job title.
Screw all this devops-title-stuff, I want AwesomeOps in my title. :)
:)
P.
Note that BroOps is the cool uncle of all evils.
Gonna put Herperations Derpgineer on my next set of bix cards...
On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Philip J. Hollenback <phi...@pobox.com> wrote:
Back to the discussion of calling yourself a 'devops': I put devops in
my job title on linkedin a couple weeks back (devops manager). Since
then I've gotten several pretty solid recruiter queries for exactly that
term.
So, it seems like recruiters are definitely sniffing around for 'devops
X'. Food for thought.
P.
> Email had 1 attachment:
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