Update Your Payment Details Online
Dave Cheeseman
from Credit Card payment to Direct Debit? Did it work ok?
Ed Maher
"Dave Cheeseman" <news...@zagato.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bj2aqb$11i$1...@rockyflats.ardentsoftware.com...
> Has anyone used the "Update Your Payment Details Online" facility to
switch
> from Credit Card payment to Direct Debit? Did it work ok?
>
Where is it ? Not aware such a thing exists.
I wonder if it works directly with the billing system, or wether a human has
to transfer the information ?
Ed.
Dave Cheeseman
http://www.demon.net/customerservice/
which leads to
https://www.olr.uk.demon.net/cgi-bin/mypayment.cgi
Matt Gibson
> Has anyone used the "Update Your Payment Details Online" facility to
> switch from Credit Card payment to Direct Debit? Did it work ok?
Well, I used it to start a direct debit after Demon pointed out that I
hadn't paid them for a couple of years. It worked fine for me; they've
started taking money, anyway...
M
--
"It's the small gaps between the rain that count,
and learning how to live amongst them."
-- Jeff Noon
Elton Murphy
<news...@zagato.demon.co.uk> writes
No wonder they've not taken money from me for ages and have failed to
respond to every email sent.....
Despite getting the usual invoice sent to my home address every month,
the details displayed when I log in are those of an address that I moved
from about 4 years ago.
Replying to one of my emails would probably have meant doing a bit of
work...
Elton
--
Anglers' Net
http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/
The UK Online Fishing Magazine
Jim Crowther
<news...@zagato.demon.co.uk> writes:
>Has anyone used the "Update Your Payment Details Online" facility to switch
>from Credit Card payment to Direct Debit? Did it work ok?
>
>
Just tried it to go from CC to DD - I'll see what happens.
--
Jim Crowther "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)
One way to escape spam: <http://popfile.sourceforge.net/>
And another very good one: <http://keir.net/k9.html>
news
<Don't.use.L...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> writes
>In message <bj2aqb$11i$1...@rockyflats.ardentsoftware.com>, Dave Cheeseman
><news...@zagato.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>>Has anyone used the "Update Your Payment Details Online" facility to switch
>>from Credit Card payment to Direct Debit? Did it work ok?
>>
>>
>
>Just tried it to go from CC to DD - I'll see what happens.
>
Why? I thought it was harder to sort out payment problems with DD.
--
David Lawson
Ed Maher
"Jim Crowther" <Don't.use.L...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> wrote in
message news:t5SWGGT50NV$Ew...@my.choice.of.UID...
> In message <bj2aqb$11i$1...@rockyflats.ardentsoftware.com>, Dave Cheeseman
> <news...@zagato.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> >Has anyone used the "Update Your Payment Details Online" facility to
switch
> >from Credit Card payment to Direct Debit? Did it work ok?
> >
>
> Just tried it to go from CC to DD - I'll see what happens.
I hope to do this sometime in future, especially after hearing about the
dangers of Continuous credit card authority.
The biggest problem I expect would be being billed by CC and DD,
I'll be watching for reports or complaints !
Ed.
Vadim Borshchev
> >Just tried it to go from CC to DD - I'll see what happens.
>
> Why? I thought it was harder to sort out payment problems with DD.
"Continuous credit card authorities can cause problems. While they ... "
http://www.financevictims.co.uk/credit-cards/continuous-credit-card-authorities.htm
Ed Maher
"news" <ne...@davidlawson.co.uk> wrote in message
news:AeXJ9W8A5OV$EA...@artful.demon.co.uk...
There has been a thread about the legal standing of continuous credit
card authority, and the difficulty of cancelling. DD on the other hand
has a guarantee backed by the bank. Although I understand they can
go wrong too.
see thread "Arrgh! Demon accounts incompetents strike again!"
and search uk.leagal for similar issues, I was surprised.
Ed.
Paul Terry
<ne...@davidlawson.co.uk> writes
>In article <t5SWGGT50NV$Ew...@my.choice.of.UID>, Jim Crowther
><Don't.use.L...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> writes
>>Just tried it to go from CC to DD - I'll see what happens.
>Why? I thought it was harder to sort out payment problems with DD.
Not with a DD on a bank account. A direct debit on a bank account is
infinitely preferable to one on a credit card account.
--
Paul Terry
Tim Biller
"Elton Murphy" <El...@anglingsites.com> wrote in message
news:HW8ua3AhGNV$Ew...@anglersnet.co.uk...
> In article <bj2flu$1t2$1...@rockyflats.ardentsoftware.com>, Dave Cheeseman
> <news...@zagato.demon.co.uk> writes
> >> Where is it ? Not aware such a thing exists.
> >
> >http://www.demon.net/customerservice/
> >which leads to
> >https://www.olr.uk.demon.net/cgi-bin/mypayment.cgi
> >
> >
>
> No wonder they've not taken money from me for ages and have failed to
> respond to every email sent.....
>
> Despite getting the usual invoice sent to my home address every month,
> the details displayed when I log in are those of an address that I moved
> from about 4 years ago.
>
> Replying to one of my emails would probably have meant doing a bit of
> work...
Exactly the same here. The address listed is a flat in Weybridge I rented
for 6 months in 1998...
--
Tim
tim at charlieb dot demon dot co dot uk
Mike Mann
<tryh...@nospamhere.org> wrote:
>"Elton Murphy" <El...@anglingsites.com> wrote in message
>news:HW8ua3AhGNV$Ew...@anglersnet.co.uk...
>> Despite getting the usual invoice sent to my home address every month,
>> the details displayed when I log in are those of an address that I moved
>> from about 4 years ago.
>Exactly the same here. The address listed is a flat in Weybridge I rented
>for 6 months in 1998...
And here. Demon send an invoice every month (which I don't
particularly want) to my current address, yet the address displayed by
this system is really ancient. How do they do it? Why are they
keeping old addresses at all?
This, of course, is an "accounts thread" and Demon **never ever**
respond to accounts issues :-( This non-response is so consistent
that there must be an official policy about not commenting.
ISTR a formal announcement some years ago by Malcolm about their
wonderful new accounting system that would solve all their problems.
The system has been completely broken ever since and there's not been
one single peep from Demon about it since that announcement.
Mike.
Eddie
> On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:12:58 +0100, "Tim Biller"
> <tryh...@nospamhere.org> wrote:
>
>>"Elton Murphy" <El...@anglingsites.com> wrote in message
>>news:HW8ua3AhGNV$Ew...@anglersnet.co.uk...
>
>>> Despite getting the usual invoice sent to my home address every month,
>>> the details displayed when I log in are those of an address that I moved
>>> from about 4 years ago.
>
>>Exactly the same here. The address listed is a flat in Weybridge I rented
>>for 6 months in 1998...
>
> And here.
Me four.
> Demon send an invoice every month (which I don't
> particularly want) to my current address,
Ditto, although I do want the invoice for expenses porpoises.
> yet the address displayed by this system is really ancient.
Only 21 months for mine, but still...
> How do they do it? Why are they keeping old addresses at all?
Verily, the mind doth boggleth over.
I'm dreading what's going to happen when I cancel my account in
three-ish weeks' time...
--
Eddie mailto:ed...@deguello.org
news
<{$news_03$}@musonix.demon.co.uk> writes
Hmmm. Not as clear as I thought. My account says CC - probably because
online registrations only ask for the name of the issuer [Visa,
Mastercard, etc]. But mine is a debit card, so I wonder where that
leaves me.
--
David Lawson
news
<vadim.b...@picsel.com> writes
I see. I thought it was the other way around, as the only problems I
have had have been with DDs.
--
David Lawson
Jim Crowther
I haven't had trouble getting things sorted with either method - and I
was thinking of doing this anyway. I *like* DD - I know many don't, but
it suits me. :)
Jim Crowther
<ed.m...@nospam.edmaher.com> writes:
I actually suspect there will be no problem - but I'll report back in
any case. Last payment went through on the 19th - so a while to wait.
Stan Medcraft
<{$news_03$}@musonix.demon.co.uk> writes
What about old-fashioned Standing Orders?
I recently registered with my bank as an Internet customer, which
provides users with options to set up both DD's and/or SO's online.
There was no payment included in my August bank statement on account of
Demon's usual TAM (which has always been charged against my Debit Card).
I drew Accounts Help attention to this in an email. No response as yet,
but it's early days.
Meanwhile, I'm following this thread with interest and will have a look
at the Demon site mentioned by Dave Cheeseman.
--
Stan Medcraft (Reply to address is valid.)
Michael Lefevre
> In message <r8E7YCGISPV$EA...@main.machine>, Paul Terry
> <{$news_03$}@musonix.demon.co.uk> writes
>>In message <AeXJ9W8A5OV$EA...@artful.demon.co.uk>, news
>><ne...@davidlawson.co.uk> writes
>>
>>>In article <t5SWGGT50NV$Ew...@my.choice.of.UID>, Jim Crowther
>>><Don't.use.L...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> writes
>>
>>>>Just tried it to go from CC to DD - I'll see what happens.
>>
>>>Why? I thought it was harder to sort out payment problems with DD.
>>
>>Not with a DD on a bank account. A direct debit on a bank account is
>>infinitely preferable to one on a credit card account.
>
> What about old-fashioned Standing Orders?
>
> I recently registered with my bank as an Internet customer, which
> provides users with options to set up both DD's and/or SO's online.
Standing Orders aren't as good. With a direct debit, if the company
actually sorts out collecting it, they at least know what account it is
for. Standing Orders can get lost in suspense accounts. Also, Direct
Debits can be refunded by your bank after they have been paid - with a
Standing Order you can't retrieve the money paid (although you do at least
have full control over future payments)
> I drew Accounts Help attention to this in an email. No response as yet,
> but it's early days.
Accounts people on the phone go as far as to say that email is not a good
way to communicate with them. The email address for accounts doesn't even
seem to be on the website any more. I fear you will be waiting a long
time for anyone to look at your email...
--
Michael
sw
> In article <ytzqPdGSwaV$Ew...@stanmed.demon.co.uk>, Stan Medcraft wrote:
[-]
> > What about old-fashioned Standing Orders?
> >
> > I recently registered with my bank as an Internet customer, which
> > provides users with options to set up both DD's and/or SO's online.
>
> Standing Orders aren't as good. With a direct debit, if the company
> actually sorts out collecting it, they at least know what account it is
> for. Standing Orders can get lost in suspense accounts. Also, Direct
> Debits can be refunded by your bank after they have been paid - with a
> Standing Order you can't retrieve the money paid (although you do at least
> have full control over future payments)
And Demon won't accept Standing Orders anyway (I asked). CC/DD only.
regards
sarah
--
Think of it as evolution in action.
news
Address in.sig} <noone$$@llondel.org> writes
>having been fobbed off by the counter staff and accidentally referred to
>"making other arrangements" if it wasn't sorted. What I meant was that I'd
>cancel every DD I had and switch to standing orders even if I had to tell
>them to change the amount each month. What he read was that I was going to
>move my account elsewhere. It was sorted.
>
My problem is that DD arrangements are not for specific figures, so the
amount taken can vary. Several times in the past I have noticed the
wrong amount has been transferred but this is after the event and has
led to endless hours on the phone sorting it out. I understand that DDs
also cannot be cancelled without agreement by the other side.
OTOH perhaps the same could happen with my debit card arrangement. It
just has not happened in the past.
--
David Lawson
Paul Terry
<ne...@davidlawson.co.uk> writes
>My problem is that DD arrangements are not for specific figures, so the
>amount taken can vary.
That is the normal understanding of "Direct Debit" these days - many
years ago it used to be called variable direct debit. A direct debit
arrangement for a fixed amount is basically a Standing Order, which is
nowadays quite rare since it involves all parties in considerable cost
and effort to change.
>Several times in the past I have noticed the wrong amount has been
>transferred but this is after the event and has led to endless hours on
>the phone sorting it out.
Companies may squirm and delay, but if the wrong amount has been
transferred (whether it is the vendor's fault or the bank's) the DD
guarantee scheme operated by BACS (and paid for by the vendors) gives
you immediate access to a refund. The aftermath is then cleared up
later.
>I understand that DDs also cannot be cancelled without agreement by the
>other side.
Untrue. See http://www.directdebit.co.uk/new_business/guarantee.php
You can cancel a Direct Debit at any time by writing to your
bank or building society. Please also send a copy of your letter
to the organisation.
> OTOH perhaps the same could happen with my debit card arrangement.
>It just has not happened in the past.
Raising a DD on a debit card is no different to raising one directly on
your bank account.
The danger is raising a DD on a *credit* card, not a debit card.
--
Paul Terry
dom
>Mike Mann wrote:
>> On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:12:58 +0100, "Tim Biller"
>> <tryh...@nospamhere.org> wrote:
>>
>>>"Elton Murphy" <El...@anglingsites.com> wrote in message
>>>news:HW8ua3AhGNV$Ew...@anglersnet.co.uk...
>>
>>>> Despite getting the usual invoice sent to my home address every month,
>>>> the details displayed when I log in are those of an address that I moved
>>>> from about 4 years ago.
>>
>>>Exactly the same here. The address listed is a flat in Weybridge I rented
>>>for 6 months in 1998...
>>
>> And here.
>
>Me four.
>
>> Demon send an invoice every month (which I don't
>> particularly want) to my current address,
>
>Ditto, although I do want the invoice for expenses porpoises.
>
>> yet the address displayed by this system is really ancient.
>
>Only 21 months for mine, but still...
>
Almost 3 years for me...
>> How do they do it? Why are they keeping old addresses at all?
Oddly, I moved my dial-up account to my new address almost 3 years ago,
and they billed me here with no trouble (Hampshire). Since changing to
ADSL they now bill me here in Hampereshire. Similar typo in the
street name. Makes you think they should get some new backs of envelopes
scribble our the account details on.
My DD seems to be working fine though.
Dom.
news
<{$news_03$}@musonix.demon.co.uk> writes
>> OTOH perhaps the same could happen with my debit card arrangement.
>>It just has not happened in the past.
>
>Raising a DD on a debit card is no different to raising one directly on
>your bank account.
>
>The danger is raising a DD on a *credit* card, not a debit card.
The confusing thing is that I haven't used a credit card since debit
cards came out, which is a helluva long time [I think they were
originally just cheque guarantee cards]. Yet payment arrangements -
online and offline - for gas, electricity, white goods, insurance etc,
always read like a CC, asking questions like whether it is Visa,
Mastercard, etc. Demon says I am on a CC set-up.
--
David Lawson
Ed Maher
"Paul Terry" <{$news_03$}@musonix.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ww+97YFi$jV$EA...@main.machine...
> your bank account.
You can raise a DD against a Debit Card ?
> The danger is raising a DD on a *credit* card, not a debit card.
DD seems to be a specific process attached to a bank account,
using sort code, account number.
For the purposes of the issue relating to payment by Credit Card
or Direct Debit then Debit Cards are the same as Credit Cards
insofar as where the authority and control lies. From the merchant's
perspective a 'Visa Debit' and 'Visa Credit' card would appear to be
processed in a similar or same manner, compared to a Direct Debit
which invloves the completion of a Direct Debit mandate ( now
replaced by electronic methods I believe )
Ed.
Mike
Mike Mann <mi...@kempston.net> wrote:
>ISTR a formal announcement some years ago by Malcolm about their
>wonderful new accounting system that would solve all their problems.
What, this one?
From: "Malcolm S. Muir" <Mal...@demon.net>
Newsgroups: demon.announce
Subject: New Billing System (PORTAL)
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:44:48 +0100
Message-ID: <+++8SeAQS...@demon.net>
Highlights included ...
"Over the past year, Thus plc. have made significant investment in
systems and processes in order to provide our customers with the best
possible level of service."
"This new system will bring many advantages to our customers. Initially
Portal's functionality will improve our billing processes and so
improve the efficiency of delivering new products and services to our
customers."
"As well as providing an immediate improvement to the billing of our
products, the key benefits lie in its scalability and versatility,
which will enable future innovations to become realised."
"This is of great benefit to our customers particularly when adding
new products and services, or changing personal details. Our aim is
to achieve one-call resolution to customer requests."
At what point to Demon demand their money back, as this wizzo system
is plainly not doing it's job (from the fallout seen in demon.service!)
--
--------------------------------------+------------------------------------
Mike Brown: mjb[at]pootle.demon.co.uk | Music Project: www.mp3.com/poachers
http://www.pootle.demon.co.uk/ | << No Oil Painting >>
Michael Lefevre
[snip]
>
> Raising a DD on a debit card is no different to raising one directly on
> your bank account.
>
> The danger is raising a DD on a *credit* card, not a debit card.
AIUI, that is not the case. A continuous authority to charge a debit card
(that is, giving the debit card number and expiry date, rather than the
sort code and account number from the card) works the same way as a credit
card continuous authority.
The merchant with your details can continue to make charges on your card
whenever they want, and if they can show the debit card folks (visa
delta/switch) that you gave the authority initially, it is up to you to
prove that they are not taking the payments in a way that you authorised.
You don't get any of the protections of the DD system. Indeed, it could
be considered to be even worse than a credit card, because debit cards
aren't protected by the consumer credit act either - if things go really
wrong, you're left chasing the merchant rather than the card company.
--
Michael
David Taylor
Debit cards (e.g. switch) are not the same as Direct Debit.
Direct Debits use the sort code and account number, and require a Direct
Debit mandate to be completed. This is not the same as telling someone
your card number/expiry date.
--
David Taylor
david...@yadt.co.uk
"The future just ain't what it used to be."
Jim Crowther
<ed.m...@nospam.edmaher.com> writes:
>
>"Paul Terry" <{$news_03$}@musonix.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:ww+97YFi$jV$EA...@main.machine...
>> In message <h+unVZK4ghV$EA...@artful.demon.co.uk>, news
>> <ne...@davidlawson.co.uk> writes
>>
>> Raising a DD on a debit card is no different to raising one directly on
>> your bank account.
>
>You can raise a DD against a Debit Card ?
>
>> The danger is raising a DD on a *credit* card, not a debit card.
>
>DD seems to be a specific process attached to a bank account,
>using sort code, account number.
In case you hadn't noticed, debit card numbers include this info.
--
Jim Crowther "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)
One way to escape spam: <http://popfile.sourceforge.net/>
And another very good one: <http://keir.net/k9.html>
Free yourself from DNS tyranny: <http://ntcanuck.com>
David Taylor
> In message <bj5mf9$2ps$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk>, Ed Maher
> <ed.m...@nospam.edmaher.com> writes:
>
>>
>>"Paul Terry" <{$news_03$}@musonix.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:ww+97YFi$jV$EA...@main.machine...
>>> In message <h+unVZK4ghV$EA...@artful.demon.co.uk>, news
>>> <ne...@davidlawson.co.uk> writes
>>>
>>> Raising a DD on a debit card is no different to raising one directly on
>>> your bank account.
>>
>>You can raise a DD against a Debit Card ?
>>
>>> The danger is raising a DD on a *credit* card, not a debit card.
>>
>>DD seems to be a specific process attached to a bank account,
>>using sort code, account number.
>
> In case you hadn't noticed, debit card numbers include this info.
They do? What's the point of having seperate numbers then?
Given that my debit card has a 16 digit number, a 6 digit sort code and
an 8 digit account number, that would leave (after accounting for the
check digit which I'm sure is in there) one digit for some other purpose.
I think the sortcode/account number serves a different purpose to the card
number...
Paul Terry
Lefevre <new...@michaellefevre.com> writes
>In article <ww+97YFi$jV$EA...@main.machine>, Paul Terry wrote:
>[snip]
>> The danger is raising a DD on a *credit* card, not a debit card.
>AIUI, that is not the case. A continuous authority to charge a debit card
>(that is, giving the debit card number and expiry date, rather than the
>sort code and account number from the card) works the same way as a credit
>card continuous authority.
Assuming it is possible, I don't see why it should be the same.
Basically a debit card is a way of using a bank account - there is no
separate account as there is with a credit card.
Since the data on a debit card must contain the necessary details to
identify an account (otherwise it wouldn't work for any purpose), and
since a signature is no longer required to set-up a direct debit, it
seems quite possible that a debit card could be used to set up a
continuous/variable direct debit.
The bottom line is that, because the arrangement is on your bank
account, you should be covered by the direct debit guarantee scheme.
>The merchant with your details can continue to make charges on your
>card whenever they want, and if they can show the debit card folks
>(visa delta/switch) that you gave the authority initially, it is up to
>you to prove that they are not taking the payments in a way that you
>authorised.
I don't think that is entirely correct. With a debit card transaction
the relationship is between merchant, customer and the banking system,
as it is with cheques, standing orders and direct debits. As it says on
the Solo Card website:
As we don’t sign up businesses to take Solo ourselves, we
don’t have any direct contact with retailers as a rule.
Businesses are signed up by our member banks and it is they who
have the relationship with merchants.
And for customers it says:
If you have any problems with Solo transactions, you should
contact your bank branch and ask them to pursue the matter for
you. Switch Card Services does not process transactions and has
no access to your account details: these are held by the bank
that handles your account.
This is very different to the credit card system.
>You don't get any of the protections of the DD system. Indeed, it could
>be considered to be even worse than a credit card, because debit cards
>aren't protected by the consumer credit act either - if things go really
>wrong, you're left chasing the merchant rather than the card company.
According to the quotes above, you should pursue the matter with your
bank branch if a debit-card transaction goes wrong.
To be honest, I don't know if the DD guarantee scheme would exclude an
arrangement made, say, by giving DD card details over the phone rather
than by giving bank account details over the phone. The latter is
certainly protected by the scheme and I can't see that the former is
significantly different. The BACS website on Direct Debit claims ...
Regardless of what method of sign up you agree to, you are still
fully covered by the Direct Debit Guarantee.
--
Paul Terry
Paul Terry
>news:ww+97YFi$jV$EA...@main.machine...
>> In message <h+unVZK4ghV$EA...@artful.demon.co.uk>, news
>> <ne...@davidlawson.co.uk> writes
>>
>> Raising a DD on a debit card is no different to raising one directly on
>> your bank account.
>You can raise a DD against a Debit Card ?
It would be raised against your bank account (if it is possible) - all
the card does is identify your bank account in a rather neater way than
having to write down sort codes, etc.
>> The danger is raising a DD on a *credit* card, not a debit card.
>DD seems to be a specific process attached to a bank account,
>using sort code, account number.
>
>For the purposes of the issue relating to payment by Credit Card
>or Direct Debit then Debit Cards are the same as Credit Cards
>insofar as where the authority and control lies.
No that's not the case. The relationship is with the bank with a debit
card - and that applies to the merchant as well as to the customer.
When using a credit card the relationship is with the card company.
>From the merchant's perspective a 'Visa Debit' and 'Visa Credit' card
>would appear to be processed in a similar or same manner, compared to a
>Direct Debit which invloves the completion of a Direct Debit mandate
It is convenient to make the outward appearances similar, but the system
is totally different. With a debit card the merchant's terminal makes a
direct electronic connection to the customer's bank to ensure that funds
are available. With a credit card the check is made with the credit
company to ensure that they are willing to lend the money against that
customer's account.
> ( now replaced by electronic methods I believe )
Yes, and that's why I wonder if it is possible to set up a continuous
direct debit using a DD card.
--
Paul Terry
Michael Lefevre
> In message <bj5rfu$fhqfq$1...@ID-106624.news.uni-berlin.de>, Michael
> Lefevre <new...@michaellefevre.com> writes
>
>>In article <ww+97YFi$jV$EA...@main.machine>, Paul Terry wrote:
>>[snip]
>>> The danger is raising a DD on a *credit* card, not a debit card.
>
>>AIUI, that is not the case. A continuous authority to charge a debit card
>>(that is, giving the debit card number and expiry date, rather than the
>>sort code and account number from the card) works the same way as a credit
>>card continuous authority.
>
> Assuming it is possible, I don't see why it should be the same.
> Basically a debit card is a way of using a bank account - there is no
> separate account as there is with a credit card.
>
> Since the data on a debit card must contain the necessary details to
> identify an account (otherwise it wouldn't work for any purpose), and
> since a signature is no longer required to set-up a direct debit, it
> seems quite possible that a debit card could be used to set up a
> continuous/variable direct debit.
>
> The bottom line is that, because the arrangement is on your bank
> account, you should be covered by the direct debit guarantee scheme.
Both my previous bank, and the merchant, said that was not the case.
You're only covered by the Direct Debit guarantee scheme if the
arrangement is a Direct Debit. Even if you arrange a Direct Debit online
or by phone, they send you a confirmation back, with the Direct Debit
guarantee on it. That doesn't happen for debit card arrangements.
>>The merchant with your details can continue to make charges on your
>>card whenever they want, and if they can show the debit card folks
>>(visa delta/switch) that you gave the authority initially, it is up to
>>you to prove that they are not taking the payments in a way that you
>>authorised.
>
> I don't think that is entirely correct. With a debit card transaction
> the relationship is between merchant, customer and the banking system,
> as it is with cheques, standing orders and direct debits. As it says on
> the Solo Card website:
[snip]
Now I think about it, you're right of course. But I still don't think
debit card payments are covered by the Direct Debit scheme.
[snip]
> To be honest, I don't know if the DD guarantee scheme would exclude an
> arrangement made, say, by giving DD card details over the phone rather
> than by giving bank account details over the phone. The latter is
> certainly protected by the scheme and I can't see that the former is
> significantly different. The BACS website on Direct Debit claims ...
>
> Regardless of what method of sign up you agree to, you are still
> fully covered by the Direct Debit Guarantee.
I'm not sure of the relevance of that - debit card payments aren't the
same as BACS payments or Direct Debit payments.
--
Michael
Jeremy C B Nicoll
Ed Maher <ed.m...@nospam.edmaher.com> wrote:
> I imagine the sort code / account number is on the debit card so the
> cardholder and bank staff can tell which account the card relates to,
> In case a problem arises, or the cardholder wants to avoid using a
> specific card on the overdrawn account ;-) .
It's simpler than that - these cards are often also used as cheque
guarantee cards, so they need the sortcode & account number values.
--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
Jim Crowther
<david...@yadt.co.uk> writes:
>Jim Crowther <Don't.use.L...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> wrote on
>Thu, 4 Sep 2003 01:26:50 +0100:
>> In message <bj5mf9$2ps$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk>, Ed Maher
>> <ed.m...@nospam.edmaher.com> writes:
[]
>>>DD seems to be a specific process attached to a bank account,
>>>using sort code, account number.
>>
>> In case you hadn't noticed, debit card numbers include this info.
>
>They do? What's the point of having seperate numbers then?
>
>Given that my debit card has a 16 digit number, a 6 digit sort code and
>an 8 digit account number, that would leave (after accounting for the
>check digit which I'm sure is in there) one digit for some other purpose.
>
>I think the sortcode/account number serves a different purpose to the card
>number...
Hmm... mine is a 19 digit number, split up it is:
xxxx xx-xx-xx xxxxxxxx x
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
sortcode a/c no.
Nick Panizzi
[]
>>DD seems to be a specific process attached to a bank account,
>>using sort code, account number.
>
>In case you hadn't noticed, debit card numbers include this info.
Not all these days.
The latest NatWorst Switch cards (mine is from December 2002) do not
include the account number anywhere on the card. The sort code is not
part of the card number either.
--
Nick Panizzi
The Reply-To: Works
David Taylor
> In message <bj6430$2j6h$1...@gattaca.yadt.co.uk>, David Taylor
> <david...@yadt.co.uk> writes:
>>Jim Crowther <Don't.use.L...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> wrote on
>>Thu, 4 Sep 2003 01:26:50 +0100:
>>>
>>
>>They do? What's the point of having seperate numbers then?
>>
>>Given that my debit card has a 16 digit number, a 6 digit sort code and
>>an 8 digit account number, that would leave (after accounting for the
>>check digit which I'm sure is in there) one digit for some other purpose.
>>
>>I think the sortcode/account number serves a different purpose to the card
>>number...
>
> Hmm... mine is a 19 digit number, split up it is:
>
> xxxx xx-xx-xx xxxxxxxx x
> ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
> sortcode a/c no.
>
My card could have a 19 digit number, if you include the 3 digit 'security
code' or whatever. From what i've read, however, this is not present on
the magnetic strip, and definately doesn't appear on any 'imprinted'
receipts (as it is not on 'raised' numbering), so isn't necessary except
where someone (whatever it is that gives authorisation?) decides it is --
usually on internet sites, etc.
In any case, no pair of consecutive digits from my sort code or account
number appear consecutively in the card number, and indeed there are
several numbers 'missing' (my sort code contains a 7, my card number
doesn't).
So unless someone decided to hide the data by encoding it somehow...
*shrug*
Ed Maher
"Jim Crowther" <Don't.use.L...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> wrote in
message news:5dVT$v8kayV$Ew...@my.choice.of.UID...
>
> xxxx xx-xx-xx xxxxxxxx x
> ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
> sortcode a/c no.
Presumably one of those non-visa debit cards like Solo or Electron ( not
accepted
in many places )
I have one of those Visa ones.
Ed.
Julia Jones
<npan...@hotmail.com> writes
Quite a number of cards don't now. One of my friends is recruiting for
her local wildlife trust. This involves getting people's bank account
details for the Direct Debit form - and a fair number of people have to
be phoned later at home, because the relevant details are no longer on
their Switch cards, and they've stopped carrying chequebooks.
--
Julia Jones
"The Syndicate" - a heartwarming tale of geek love among the stars. Volumes 1
and 2 available now from http://www.amatory-ink.co.uk Details and free sample
chapters at http://www.julesjones.com/fiction/syndicate/syndicate.htm
Dominic Sexton
<ed.m...@nospam.edmaher.com> writes
>
More and more banks are moving away from the idea of using the SC / AN
on cards to try and combat fraud.
--
Dominic Sexton
http://www.dscs.demon.co.uk/
James Coupe
Lock...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> writes:
>>DD seems to be a specific process attached to a bank account,
>>using sort code, account number.
>
>In case you hadn't noticed, debit card numbers include this info.
It may be included in some encoded form, but neither my Switch card with
the Halifax nor (previously) my Switch card with the Royal Bank of
Scotland included it directly. Both of them use(d) 16 digit numbers, of
the same style as most credit cards. My Halifax Switch card does,
however, include the sort code and account number at the bottom of the
card, in addition to the card number, start/end dates, issue numbers and
all that sort of thing.
On the other hand, my ex's HSBC Switch card had the sort code put
directly in the number (of an 18 digit format, I believe).
Additionally, my RBS card didn't include an issue number, which
sometimes made (badly designed) online forms (and the occasional person
on the phone) barf.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2
So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D
Matt Gibson
> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:44:48 +0100
I think that was probably the date at which they stopped taking my money. I
still haven't received any invoices at all since back then -- even for the
few hundred quid that they took by DD last month to cover the months I
hadn't paid...
M
--
"It's the small gaps between the rain that count,
and learning how to live amongst them."
-- Jeff Noon
Clive D. W. Feather
<Don't.use.L...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> writes
>Hmm... mine is a 19 digit number, split up it is:
>
>xxxx xx-xx-xx xxxxxxxx x
> ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
> sortcode a/c no.
On credit cards and other cards in the same numbering family:
* The first digit is the system (e.g. Visa = 4, Mastercard = 5).
* The next 3 digits identify the bank or group of banks (in the latter
case, the 2 after that identify the bank)(here, "bank" includes other
issuers as well).
* The last digit is the checksum.
--
Clive D.W. Feather, writing for himself | Home: <cl...@davros.org>
Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 (work) | Web: <http://www.davros.org>
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: <cl...@demon.net>
Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address
Jim Crowther
<npan...@hotmail.com> writes:
(goes and checks SWMBO's new card...)
You are quite right, thank you. OK, some debit cards *used* to include
this info...
Mike Mann
wrote:
>In article <eq1alvk8vrign3123...@news.kempston.net>,
>Mike Mann <mi...@kempston.net> wrote:
>
>>ISTR a formal announcement some years ago by Malcolm about their
>>wonderful new accounting system that would solve all their problems.
>
>What, this one?
>
>From: "Malcolm S. Muir" <Mal...@demon.net>
>Newsgroups: demon.announce
>Subject: New Billing System (PORTAL)
That's the one, thanks.
I think there must be an official instruction to Demon staff not to
comment on billing or accounting problems, because they never ever do
so.
Cam't someone at Demon at least tell us why this system is using
obsolete customer addresses and how to correct them?
Mike.
Richard Clayton
Mann <mi...@kempston.net> writes
>Cam't someone at Demon at least tell us why this system is using
>obsolete customer addresses
I think it is using an "original" address for some reason (I had a look
at my own details and that was certainly true there)
>and how to correct them?
The database entries viewed by the everyone else will show your current
details (assuming you have told Demon that you've moved). ie: there's
nothing to correct in the sense you mean
--
richard writing to inform and not as company policy
"Assembly of Japanese bicycle require great peace of mind" quoted in ZAMM
Mark
>In article <am8flv8gervh8n6ml...@news.kempston.net>, Mike
>Mann <mi...@kempston.net> writes
>
>>Cam't someone at Demon at least tell us why this system is using
>>obsolete customer addresses
>
>I think it is using an "original" address for some reason (I had a look
>at my own details and that was certainly true there)
>
>>and how to correct them?
>
>The database entries viewed by the everyone else will show your current
>details (assuming you have told Demon that you've moved). ie: there's
>nothing to correct in the sense you mean
Surely the correction is obvious. The implication is that the web page in question is
displaying data from some historical source and, as such, it could be inaccurate. It
possibly violates the Data Protection Act's Fourth Principle. A similar mistake in other
circumstances could represent a serious violation of that principle.
I hope Demon's Data Protection Officer will investigate the situation and ensure that
there are proper procedures in place to guard against the use of historically inaccurate
data. Who knows, maybe it's even possible that such an investigation might remedy some of
the other inaccuracies that get reported with respect to Demon's finance systems.
I am assuming that Demon do have a Data Protection Officer :)
Useful link:
http://www.dataprotection.gov.uk
Interesting link:
http://www.dpr.gov.uk/cgi-bin/dpr98-fetch.pl?source=DPR&docid=45787
--
Mark
Elton Murphy
<ric...@highwayman.com> writes
>In article <am8flv8gervh8n6ml...@news.kempston.net>, Mike
>Mann <mi...@kempston.net> writes
>
>>Cam't someone at Demon at least tell us why this system is using
>>obsolete customer addresses
>
>I think it is using an "original" address for some reason (I had a look
>at my own details and that was certainly true there)
>
>>and how to correct them?
>
>The database entries viewed by the everyone else will show your current
>details (assuming you have told Demon that you've moved). ie: there's
>nothing to correct in the sense you mean
>
So, how come my invoice comes to the correct address, yet the details
online are about 4 years old?
Elton
--
Anglers' Net
http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/
The UK Online Fishing Magazine
JD
<El...@anglingsites.com> :
>So, how come my invoice comes to the correct address, yet the details
>online are about 4 years old?
ffs elton, you're trying to apply logic and assume there is a modicum
of common sense above fuckwittedness to demon accounts.
--
John
arjf @ sghzfu qbg qrzba qbg pb.hx
Dave Cheeseman
answers!
So has anyone actually successfully used this feature? I want to switch from
CC to DD but having read all the grief that others have had with payments I
am reluctant to change something that is currently working fine ...
Richard Clayton
<El...@anglingsites.com> writes
>In article <d8f0JQBG16V$EA...@highwayman.com>, Richard Clayton
><ric...@highwayman.com> writes
>>In article <am8flv8gervh8n6ml...@news.kempston.net>, Mike
>>Mann <mi...@kempston.net> writes
>>
>>>Cam't someone at Demon at least tell us why this system is using
>>>obsolete customer addresses
>>
>>I think it is using an "original" address for some reason (I had a look
>>at my own details and that was certainly true there)
>>
>>>and how to correct them?
>>
>>The database entries viewed by the everyone else will show your current
>>details (assuming you have told Demon that you've moved). ie: there's
>>nothing to correct in the sense you mean
>>
>So, how come my invoice comes to the correct address, yet the details
>online are about 4 years old?
that was exactly the point I was making ... viz: that the correct
address is recorded everywhere -- except, apparently, on the online
display. Hence there is no need to ring up Southend and ask for your
details to be "corrected" because they are correct everywhere else
if you're asking "what's wrong in the display code" then I don't have
any information about that at present :(
Michael Lefevre
> In article <d8f0JQBG16V$EA...@highwayman.com>, Richard Clayton
> <ric...@highwayman.com> writes
>>In article <am8flv8gervh8n6ml...@news.kempston.net>, Mike
>>Mann <mi...@kempston.net> writes
>>
>>>Cam't someone at Demon at least tell us why this system is using
>>>obsolete customer addresses
>>
>>I think it is using an "original" address for some reason (I had a look
>>at my own details and that was certainly true there)
>>
>>>and how to correct them?
>>
>>The database entries viewed by the everyone else will show your current
>>details (assuming you have told Demon that you've moved). ie: there's
>>nothing to correct in the sense you mean
>
> So, how come my invoice comes to the correct address, yet the details
> online are about 4 years old?
It seems that Richard has just answered exactly that question - the
details you see online are the "original" (old) address, but the "database
entries viewed by everyone else" (which obviously includes the invoice
printing system) are current. The problem is not that the system doesn't
have the current details, just that the web page system is pulling
historical information out. Whoever wrote the system probably only tested
it with a newly created test record with no historic information...
--
Michael
JD
<news...@zagato.demon.co.uk> :
I would change it as soon as possible via recorded delivery letter.
Do it now while there is no urgency and it will probably happen in the
next 12 months.
Seriously.
I can only liken demon accounts to a 1970's council department.
--
"Sounds a bit like Cossie's Low Fat Ketogenic Bulking Diet." - rj
"Symmetry and proportion don't count for tits, as long as the tits are large." - JC Der Koenig
"Personally I like to keep my advice that kills to a minimum." - Zaf
John
[uk.rec.bodybuilding] - http://www.urb.org.uk
http://www.sports-supplements.co.uk
Richard Clayton
<ric...@highwayman.com> writes
>if you're asking "what's wrong in the display code" then I don't have
>any information about that at present :(
but I do now :)
apparently the address supplied is the address linked to the payment
method (rather than the address linked to the supply of the services
and/or where invoices and other correspondence is sent to)
the flaw that people are detecting is that when the system changes the
other addresses, the address for the payment method is not changed...
... which of course doesn't actually affect getting payment
(because it is the Credit Card number of the Bank Account Details
that actually matter for this process)
... pretty obviously this issue is to be addressed, and also reasonably
obviously to anyone who has ever worked on billing systems, it won't be
an overnight fix!
Nick Panizzi
[]
>>>>DD seems to be a specific process attached to a bank account,
>>>>using sort code, account number.
>>>
>>>In case you hadn't noticed, debit card numbers include this info.
>>
>>Not all these days.
>>
>>The latest NatWorst Switch cards (mine is from December 2002) do not
>>include the account number anywhere on the card. The sort code is not
>>part of the card number either.
>
>(goes and checks SWMBO's new card...)
It wasn't locked away behind 15 combination locks :-)
>You are quite right, thank you. OK, some debit cards *used* to include
>this info...
I still have the old card - which had both in the main number.
As others have pointed out (and was explained by the covering letter
that came with the card) the banks want more security. Which is bizarre,
bearing in mind that the same issuing bank sent me a new credit card
only two months ago *without* the chip on the front! They got it back
cut into *very* tiny pieces with a letter threatening to close the card
and bank accounts of 25 years standing. The replacement card had a chip.
Roy Brown
>In article <BObvsuAwGFW$Ew...@anglersnet.co.uk>, Elton Murphy
><El...@anglingsites.com> writes
>
>>In article <d8f0JQBG16V$EA...@highwayman.com>, Richard Clayton
>>online are about 4 years old?
>
>that was exactly the point I was making ... viz: that the correct
>address is recorded everywhere -- except, apparently, on the online
>display. Hence there is no need to ring up Southend and ask for your
>details to be "corrected" because they are correct everywhere else
>
>if you're asking "what's wrong in the display code" then I don't have
>any information about that at present :(
Yes, but it's got to be wrong, hasn't it?
The Demon standard is that it's fscked, but refuses to say so (MOTD,
staus@gate, etc.)
What we have here is something that *looks* fscked, but isn't really.
You'll never get ISO 9001 with such inconsistencies abounding :-)
--
Roy Brown 'Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be
Kelmscott Ltd useful, or believe to be beautiful' William Morris
Pedt
>On the other hand, my ex's HSBC Switch card had the sort code put
>directly in the number (of an 18 digit format, I believe).
HSBC still do. My very recent card is 18 digits with SC & AN in the
number.
Interestingly, I used the card on the 'net last Monday morning before I
went off and there was a letter waiting for me Friday night from their
security dept asking me to check the payee and the amount as it was the
first time the new card had been used.
--
Pedt
Aposiopesisophobia - fear of not finishing your sente....
dom
>Oddly, I moved my dial-up account to my new address almost 3 years ago,
>and they billed me here with no trouble (Hampshire). Since changing to
>ADSL they now bill me here in Hampereshire. Similar typo in the
>street name.
Just got this month's invoice... Hampereshire now says Hampshire! Co-incidence,
or do accounts department read demon.service...
An experiment... 1st line of my address has 'Charpter' in it and should say
'Chapter'.
Now I just have to wait for a month :-P
dom.
Matthew Malthouse
} In message <h+unVZK4ghV$EA...@artful.demon.co.uk>, news
} <ne...@davidlawson.co.uk> writes
}
} Raising a DD on a debit card is no different to raising one directly on
} your bank account.
Not quite true. The recurring charge on a debit card ceases when that
card's validity expires. Even when a re-issue is automati by the bank
the charge will have to be re-established.
Matthew
--
Záhid sharáb píné dé, masjid mein baith kar
ya woh jagah batá dé jahán Khudá na ho.
http://www.calmeilles.co.uk/
news
<{R}@semolina.org> writes
>In demon.service on Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:48:23 +0000 (UTC), Matthew
>Malthouse <use...@calmeilles.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>}On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:24:18 +0100 Paul Terry wrote:
>}} In message <h+unVZK4ghV$EA...@artful.demon.co.uk>, news
>}} <ne...@davidlawson.co.uk> writes
>}}
>}} Raising a DD on a debit card is no different to raising one directly on
>}} your bank account.
>}
>}Not quite true. The recurring charge on a debit card ceases when that
>}card's validity expires. Even when a re-issue is automati by the bank
>}the charge will have to be re-established.
>
>number and all the recurring debits of the old card die. Very nice
>control mechanism.
>
Would that stop Demon/Thrush sending in the bailiffs?
--
David Lawson
Simon Hewison
> In article <hqh3mvcpbrgos0ieu...@4ax.com>, Richard Ashton
><{R}@semolina.org> writes
>>}Not quite true. The recurring charge on a debit card ceases when that
>>}card's validity expires. Even when a re-issue is automati by the bank
>>}the charge will have to be re-established.
In my experience, not always the case. Some card issuers will re-map an old
card number onto the account, for a period of time. There appears to be
no formal period for doing this, and such re-mapping may stop at any point
with no warning. There are even cases of card issuers getting low on
numbers, and then re-issuing the same card number to another customer,
after a few years of it being expired.
>>
>>If you report it lost the bank will give you a new one with a different
>>number and all the recurring debits of the old card die. Very nice
>>control mechanism.
Indeed, if you explicity tell the bank that you don't want anything to do
with the old card number, because you believe the card to be stolen,
they should never re-map the card number details.
> Would that stop Demon/Thrush sending in the bailiffs?
It won't stop you accruing more and more outstanding balance that you owe.
If you do dispute any charge on any invoice, it makes sense to contact the
company that issued the invoice, rather than just trying your best to sweep
the problem under the carpet. All that would happen if you do that sort of
thing is that the big bulge under the carpet will get bigger and bigger
until you can't help but deal with it.
--
Simon Hewison
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
da...@davidlawson.co.uk "news" writes:
> My problem is that DD arrangements are not for specific figures, so the
> amount taken can vary. Several times in the past I have noticed the
> wrong amount has been transferred but this is after the event and has
> led to endless hours on the phone sorting it out. I understand that DDs
> also cannot be cancelled without agreement by the other side.
Whilst the generally acknowledged system of DDs are more correctly called
VADDs (Variable Amount Direct Debits) it's actually possible to effect
constrains on the amount and frequency of payment. On the DD mandate
form that _you_ send to _your_ bank, annotate the authorization to
specify "amount not to exceed GBP11.75; frequency not to exceed once per
calendar month".
The mandate is a contract between yourself and your bank...
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} b...@dsl.co.uk
"We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are
untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them".
George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
da...@davidlawson.co.uk "news" writes:
> In article <3F54F202...@picsel.com>, Vadim Borshchev
> <vadim.b...@picsel.com> writes
> >news wrote:
> >
> >> >Just tried it to go from CC to DD - I'll see what happens.
> >>
> >> Why? I thought it was harder to sort out payment problems with DD.
> >
> >"Continuous credit card authorities can cause problems. While they ... "
> >http://www.financevictims.co.uk/credit-cards/continuous-credit-card-auth
> >orities.htm
>
> I see. I thought it was the other way around, as the only problems I
> have had have been with DDs.
Rest assured that one can enjoy (?) _far_ greater difficulties after
granting a CCA. My advice is NEVER to give ANYONE (not even a totally
competent firm like Demon:-) a Continuous Credit Authority, since there
is NO WAY of rescinding it without _their_ agreement.
At least the banks have very strict rules about "unexpected" DDs.
dom
Guess what! A month later, and now it says 'Chapter' on my invoice! Thanks,
demon accounts lurker.
dom.
Richard Clayton
<ne...@eriador.demon.co.uk> writes
>Guess what! A month later, and now it says 'Chapter' on my invoice! Thanks,
>demon accounts lurker.
there were, AIUI, several lurkers -- some of whom then got confused
because it had already been fixed when they looked at it :)
news
Hmmm... I wonder if that might work for me? You would think that
getting an invoice from Demon would be straightforward. They've got my
money. All I want is a little sheet of paper explaining why such a
strangely inflated amount was removed from my bank account on September
8th.
I've phoned every week since. No-ne can explain it. But I get the same
promise each time that said piece of paper will be jetted to me 'within
10 days'.
I was *so* excited when an invoice turned up today - except that it
was for next month's payment.
Hellooooo out there!
--
David Lawson
Jim Crowther
>In message <AeXJ9W8A5OV$EA...@artful.demon.co.uk>, news
><ne...@davidlawson.co.uk> writes:
>
>>In article <t5SWGGT50NV$Ew...@my.choice.of.UID>, Jim Crowther
>><Don't.use.L...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> writes
>>>In message <bj2aqb$11i$1...@rockyflats.ardentsoftware.com>, Dave
>>>Cheeseman <news...@zagato.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>>
>>>>Has anyone used the "Update Your Payment Details Online" facility to switch
>>>>from Credit Card payment to Direct Debit? Did it work ok?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Just tried it to go from CC to DD - I'll see what happens.
>>>
>>
>>Why? I thought it was harder to sort out payment problems with DD.
>
>I haven't had trouble getting things sorted with either method - and I
>was thinking of doing this anyway. I *like* DD - I know many don't,
>but it suits me. :)
>
Heh. Just had a begging letter from Demon for the interest free loan
they've given me since September 2003.
I can remember having to re-enter the details many a time, they wouldn't
stick.
There's a new page now for payment details:
<http://www.demon.net/mypayment>
I've entered details there, I wonder what'll happen this time...
--
Jim Crowther "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)
Always learning.
Jim Howes
>
> There's a new page now for payment details:
>
> <http://www.demon.net/mypayment>
>
> I've entered details there, I wonder what'll happen this time...
>
Thankyou for reminding me, as my existing credit card expires this
month, so I needed to change that. The new form works as expected with
Mozilla (the four boxes for entering the credit details
Are Arranged Like
This
I too will watch the situation closely to see how long it takes before
anything interesting happens...
Jim