ZH: Inklusives "Wir"
Heinz Lohmann
und du, aber auch ich und er/sie, aber nicht du) ein spezielles
inklusives 咱們 zanmen = "wir" (ich und du/ihr). Das ist mir seit langem
bekannt.
Ich habe es aber hier in Taiwan seit 25 Jahren in der gesprochenen
Sprachen noch nie gehört. Hat jemand das zanmen schon einmal gesprochen
gehört, evtl. auch irgendwo in China, oder ist es heute eher
schriftsprachlich?
mfg
Heinz Lohmann
Danshui, Taiwan
25°07'58"N 121°27'56"E
--
Gedanken sind nicht stets parat,
man schreibt auch, wenn man keine hat. W.B.
Joachim Pense
sagen können).
Heinz Lohmann (in de.etc.sprache.misc):
> Im Chinesischen gibt es neben dem allgemeinen 我們 women = "wir" (ich
> und du, aber auch ich und er/sie, aber nicht du) ein spezielles
> inklusives 咱們 zanmen = "wir" (ich und du/ihr). Das ist mir seit langem
> bekannt.
>
> Ich habe es aber hier in Taiwan seit 25 Jahren in der gesprochenen
> Sprachen noch nie gehört. Hat jemand das zanmen schon einmal gesprochen
> gehört, evtl. auch irgendwo in China, oder ist es heute eher
> schriftsprachlich?
>
> mfg
> Heinz Lohmann
> Danshui, Taiwan
> 25°07'58"N 121°27'56"E
(He is asking about the inclusive and exclusive "we" in Chinese, and reports
he never heard the inclusive version during 25 years in Taiwan. He asks if
it is in use in the spoken language elsewhere in China).
No f'up
Jens Müller
He certainly did not write "elsewhere in China" :-)
LEE Sau Dan
>> Im Chinesischen gibt es neben dem allgemeinen 我們 women = "wir"
>> (ich und du, aber auch ich und er/sie, aber nicht du) ein
>> spezielles inklusives 咱們 zanmen = "wir" (ich und du/ihr). Das
>> ist mir seit langem bekannt.
"zanmen" gehört dem Hochchinesisch gar nicht. Es gehört einigen
Dialekten des Mandarins.
Also, was Du seit langem gekannt hast, ist nicht Hochchinesisch, sondern
einen Dialekt (z.B. Pekingese) davon.
>> Ich habe es aber hier in Taiwan seit 25 Jahren in der
>> gesprochenen Sprachen noch nie gehört.
Die Taiwaner sprechen entweder Hochchinesisch, oder Hokkien. (Einige
sprechen Hakka. Noch wenigere sprechen andere süd-chinesischen
Sprachen. Noch eine Minderheit auf den Bergen sprechen Sprachen, die
nicht den chinesischen Sprachen gehören, sondern den "Austronesian"
Sprachen (sowie die Malaysia/Indonesien-Sprache).
Also, fast kein Taiwaner spricht die Dialekte von Mandarin. "zanmen"
ist den Taiwanern ganz fremd.
>> Hat jemand das zanmen schon einmal gesprochen gehört, evtl. auch
>> irgendwo in China,
Ja. Die Leute aus Nordchina benutzen dieses Wort, aber nicht sehr oft.
Wenn sie mir sprechen, versuchen sie dieses Dialektwort zu vermeiden.
>> oder ist es heute eher schriftsprachlich?
Nein. Es befindet sich nur in Dialektschriften.
Joachim> (He is asking about the inclusive and exclusive "we" in
Joachim> Chinese, and reports he never heard the inclusive version
Joachim> during 25 years in Taiwan. He asks if it is in use in the
Joachim> spoken language elsewhere in China).
This word does not belong to Standard Mandarin. It is a word from
Mandarin dialects. So, it is not used often when Standard Mandarin is
spoken. The northerns may use it between themselves, but usually avoid
it when speaking to me, a southerner. Since Taiwan people either speak
Standard Mandarin or Hokkien (or other non-Mandarin languages), they
aren't familiar with this dialectual word, and it's no surprise to me
that you don't hear it used on the island.
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Bart Mathias
>>>>>> "Joachim" == Joachim Pense <sn...@pense-mainz.eu> writes:
>
> >> Im Chinesischen gibt es neben dem allgemeinen 我們 women = "wir"
> >> (ich und du, aber auch ich und er/sie, aber nicht du) ein
> >> spezielles inklusives 咱們 zanmen = "wir" (ich und du/ihr). Das
> >> ist mir seit langem bekannt.
>
> "zanmen" gehört dem Hochchinesisch gar nicht. Es gehört einigen
> Dialekten des Mandarins.
Those of us who used Y.R. Chao's _Mandarin Primer_ and never went to
China or anything learned it only as "zamen." (Matthews has "tsa2 ...
Also tsan2.")
Heinz Lohmann
So it belongs to anorthern dialect. No wonder I never heard it in Taiwan.
To the Mandarin Primer an zanmen: Lots of teachers tend to think their
local variation of the standard language is the standard itself,
although its only closely related. I had more trouble understanding
avarage peole in Beijing than in the provinces, obviously because they
considerd their Beijinghua to be Putonghua.
mfg
Heinz Lohmann
Danshui, Taiwan
25°07'58"N 121°27'56"E
LEE Sau Dan
>> Those of us who used Y.R. Chao's _Mandarin Primer_ and never went
>> to China or anything learned it only as "zamen." (Matthews has
>> "tsa2 ... Also tsan2.")
Heinz> So it belongs to anorthern dialect. No wonder I never heard
Heinz> it in Taiwan.
Right!
Heinz> To the Mandarin Primer an zanmen: Lots of teachers tend to
Heinz> think their local variation of the standard language is the
Heinz> standard itself, although its only closely related.
And that's annoying. Most speakers of Mandarin (actually a dialect)
think that since they're "native speakers", their language intuitions
are good standard Putonghua. And so many people believe that "native
speakers" (of Mandarin) speak perfect Putonghua. So, these native
speakers would teach non-standard pronunciations and words, and the
learners try hard to imitate all these. Both the teachers and learners
tend to ignore the real standard (e.g. no "er"-ized sounds, no localized
lexicon, etc.) They don't understand the difference between these 2
closely related languages. They don't understand that the Peking
vernacular is just a basis for Putonghua, not the standard of it.
Heinz> I had more trouble understanding avarage peole in Beijing
Heinz> than in the provinces, obviously because they considerd their
Heinz> Beijinghua to be Putonghua.
Right. The Pekingers tend to pronounce every syllable with their
tongues rolled up all the time. That makes them very hard to
understand. (I like listening to Mandarin from Taiwan people more,
provided that it's not too heavily accented (like Chenshuibien's).)
Joachim Pense
>
> And that's annoying. Most speakers of Mandarin (actually a dialect)
> think that since they're "native speakers", their language intuitions
> are good standard Putonghua.
Is Mandarin a vernacular or is it an older standard based on vernaculars of
the Beijing area?
Joachim
LEE Sau Dan
>> And that's annoying. Most speakers of Mandarin (actually a
>> dialect) think that since they're "native speakers", their
>> language intuitions are good standard Putonghua.
Joachim> Is Mandarin a vernacular or is it an older standard based
Joachim> on vernaculars of the Beijing area?
In general, Mandarin refers to the group of dialects spoken in
"northern" China, concentrated in the Northern Plain. (Beijing is in
the north of this plain.) This includes many dialects, some of which
only marginally mutually intelligible. In this sense, it is not a
single language, but a large group of closely related vernaculars. (Can
we say it's a big continuum of dialects?)
In the narrow sense, Mandarin is the vernacular of Beijing.
And then there is Standard Mandarin, which is based on the Beijing
vernacular, with the very regional features removed as much as possible.
John Atkinson
are barely mutually intelligible. Putonghua is one particular variety
of Mandarin, based on, but nor identical with, the dialect spoken in the
capital city.
J.
António Marques
>>>>>> "Heinz" == Heinz Lohmann<lese...@sofort-mail.de> writes:
> Heinz> To the Mandarin Primer an zanmen: Lots of teachers tend to
> Heinz> think their local variation of the standard language is the
> Heinz> standard itself, although its only closely related.
>
> And that's annoying. Most speakers of Mandarin (actually a
> dialect) think that since they're "native speakers", their language
> intuitions are good standard Putonghua. And so many people believe
> that "native speakers" (of Mandarin) speak perfect Putonghua.
> So, these native speakers would teach non-standard pronunciations
> and words, and the learners try hard to imitate all these. Both
> the teachers and learners tend to ignore the real standard (e.g. no
> "er"-ized sounds, no localized lexicon, etc.) They don't understand
> the difference between these 2 closely related languages. They
> don't understand that the Peking vernacular is just a basis for
> Putonghua, not the standard of it.
Who upholds the standard, then?
Joachim Pense
>>>>>> "Joachim" == Joachim Pense <sn...@pense-mainz.eu> writes:
>
> >> And that's annoying. Most speakers of Mandarin (actually a
> >> dialect) think that since they're "native speakers", their
> >> language intuitions are good standard Putonghua.
>
> Joachim> Is Mandarin a vernacular or is it an older standard based
> Joachim> on vernaculars of the Beijing area?
>
> In general, Mandarin refers to the group of dialects spoken in
> "northern" China, concentrated in the Northern Plain. (Beijing is in
> the north of this plain.) This includes many dialects, some of which
> only marginally mutually intelligible. In this sense, it is not a
> single language, but a large group of closely related vernaculars. (Can
> we say it's a big continuum of dialects?)
>
> In the narrow sense, Mandarin is the vernacular of Beijing.
>
> And then there is Standard Mandarin, which is based on the Beijing
> vernacular, with the very regional features removed as much as possible.
>
Is Standard Mandarin != Putonghua?
Joachim
Bart Mathias
> Bart Mathias schrieb:
>> [..]
>> Those of us who used Y.R. Chao's _Mandarin Primer_ and never went to
>> China or anything learned it only as "zamen." (Matthews has "tsa2 ...
>> Also tsan2.")
>
> So it belongs to anorthern dialect. No wonder I never heard it in Taiwan.
> To the Mandarin Primer an zanmen: Lots of teachers tend to think their
> local variation of the standard language is the standard itself,
Beijinghua was not Chao's native dialect, though. The audio accompanying
Mandarin Primer (at least where he was teaching, UC Berkeley) included a
poem recitation (詩吟） in his native dialect and the language was
wa-a-ay different from the version we were learning.
Bart Mathias
LEE Sau Dan
Bart> Beijinghua was not Chao's native dialect, though.
Which was his native dialect?
Bart Mathias
>>>>>> "Bart" == Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> writes:
>
> Bart> Beijinghua was not Chao's native dialect, though.
>
> Which was his native dialect?
Forty years ago I might have been able to say. I find out from Google
that he was born in Changzhou, and also that he was born in Teanjin with
Changzhou ancestry. Neither source says whether he learned Chinese where
he was born.
Incredibly, I don't know where either Tianjin or Changzhou are. My
memory contains an *impression* that he was from some rural area
northwest of Beijing, but memories are not to be trusted, especially
40-year old ones.
A scheduling conflict prevented my taking either semester of beginning
Mandarin from him. My best memory of Dr. Chao is a public performance of
speaking English backward.
LEE Sau Dan
Bart> Incredibly, I don't know where either Tianjin or Changzhou
Bart> are.
Tianjin is a big municipal east of Peking. It has a coastline and a
port that serves the capital's needs for sea-based traffic.
Despite the proximity, the Tianjin dialect is notably different from
Peking. e.g. the 4 tones are pronounced quite differently.
Changzhou? What/Where is it? (Any Chinese characters?)
Bart> My memory contains an *impression* that he was from some rural
Bart> area northwest of Beijing, but memories are not to be trusted,
Bart> especially 40-year old ones.
People from rural Peking can speak a dialect that is very difficult to
understand by learners who only know standard Putonghua. Their heavy
use of dialectual words makes the matter worse.
Bart> A scheduling conflict prevented my taking either semester of
Bart> beginning Mandarin from him. My best memory of Dr. Chao is a
Bart> public performance of speaking English backward.
Backwards in what sense? Per syllable? or per sound segment? (I can
do the latter, and if you record it on a tape and play it backwards, you
hear the original sentence.)
Bart Mathias
>>>>>> "Bart" == Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> writes:
>
> Bart> Incredibly, I don't know where either Tianjin or Changzhou
> Bart> are.
>
> Tianjin is a big municipal east of Peking. It has a coastline and a
> port that serves the capital's needs for sea-based traffic.
>
> Despite the proximity, the Tianjin dialect is notably different from
> Peking. e.g. the 4 tones are pronounced quite differently.
>
>
> Changzhou? What/Where is it? (Any Chinese characters?)
Sorry, no idea (my wild guesses were apparently wrong since they bring
up on Japanese pages).
> [...]
> Bart> A scheduling conflict prevented my taking either semester of
> Bart> beginning Mandarin from him. My best memory of Dr. Chao is a
> Bart> public performance of speaking English backward.
>
> Backwards in what sense? Per syllable? or per sound segment? (I can
> do the latter, and if you record it on a tape and play it backwards, you
> hear the original sentence.)
It was a fairly long recitation, probably a paragraph or two at least.
In those days I had a wire recorder which made playing backwards easy,
so I fiddled with it for a few hours. I found Japanese much easier than
English to speak backwards and have it sound right, particularly the
intonation. (Granted, I'm less sensitive to "unnaturalness" in Japanese
than English.)
Peter J. Holzer
> LEE Sau Dan wrote:
>>>>>>> "Bart" == Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> writes:
>> Bart> Incredibly, I don't know where either Tianjin or Changzhou
>> Bart> are.
>>
>> Tianjin is a big municipal east of Peking. It has a coastline and a
>> port that serves the capital's needs for sea-based traffic.
>>
>> Despite the proximity, the Tianjin dialect is notably different from
>> Peking. e.g. the 4 tones are pronounced quite differently.
>>
>>
>> Changzhou? What/Where is it? (Any Chinese characters?)
>
> Sorry, no idea (my wild guesses were apparently wrong since they bring
> up on Japanese pages).
Wikipedia is your friend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changzhou
Quite a bit south of Beijing.
hp
Bart Mathias
Since Wikipedia had just told me Chao was born in Tianjin with Changzhou
ancestry and kept the characters secret, I falsely jumped to the
conclusion that he didn't know.
I guessed the zhou part right, but not the chang.
LEE Sau Dan
>> Wikipedia is your friend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changzhou
Bart> Since Wikipedia had just told me Chao was born in Tianjin with
Bart> Changzhou ancestry and kept the characters secret, I falsely
Bart> jumped to the conclusion that he didn't know.
Bart> I guessed the zhou part right, but not the chang.
Lacking tones, it's hard to guess. "Zhou1" is used as the last part of
of the name of many Chinese cities. So, that one is easy to guess with
high a hit rate. For the "chang" part, I was misled into thinking that
it is close to Peking and Tianjin. :(
Chang2zhou1 lies in Jiang1su1 province, quite far away from Peking.
There, a Wu dialect (close relative of Shanghaiese) is spoken. But not
far away is Nanking, where a dialect of Mandarin is spoken.