"We Are Not Software Engineers'

[Juan Leal]

I just posted a new article on my blog. Enjoy guys: 

http://railtracks.blogspot.com/2012/03/we-are-not-software-engineers.html

--
Follow me on twitter: @terminalbreaker

Subscribe to my blog: http://railtracks.blogspot.com/

[John Ivanoff]

Take a look at your "About Me" section.

:-)

John

[Daniel Waite]

Word magic. You're piggy-backing off the state's definition of
"engineer". Big deal.

*I* define an engineer as someone who solves problems.

Because I solve problems with software, I am a software engineer.

--

[Patrick Burleson]

On Mar 11, 2012, at 3:05 AM, Daniel Waite wrote:

> Word magic. You're piggy-backing off the state's definition of
> "engineer". Big deal.
>
> *I* define an engineer as someone who solves problems.
>
> Because I solve problems with software, I am a software engineer.
>

Regardless of how you define it, the legal system has its definition. For the state of Texas that definition is a "big deal". In the state of Texas, you can not advertise yourself as a software engineer without being a licensed engineer. If you do, you could find yourself in a great deal of legal trouble.

http://sce.uhcl.edu/helm/SWEBOK_IEEE/papers/10%20reprint%205.pdf

In another example, Microsoft has been forced to not call MCSE's Engineers in Quebec without the person being a licensed engineer:

http://www.microsoft.com/canada/learning/quebecmcse/default.mspx

Patrick

[Marlon Moyer]

I'll just start referring to myself as a "Software God"

Marlon Moyer

mar...@mcmoyer.com

[Greg Pierce]

I put "Guru" on my tax returns.

[Steve Crozier]

My wife used to answer, "computeroid" to the question, "Spouse's occupation?"

Steve
------------------------
Steve Crozier
st...@crozier.com

[Jeff Iacono]

@steve, nice! how about "professional assembler of 1s and 0s into (mostly) functional forms"?

Jeff Iacono
917.520.2098
--

twitter.com/jeffreyiacono

[Juan Leal]

Hahaha, good catch John. I'll need to update my profile damn it.

[Juan Leal]

Well to be honest, in the computer science arena the end result of our work, in it's purest form, is more written work than an actually physical structure as traditional engineering is. And from a licensing stand point it is very loosely enforced if at all. However, this being the litigious society that it is; where a company can be sued for serving hot coffee, well it can give you something to think about.

-Juan

[Jim Freeze]

There is a difference between being an Engineer and being licensed as a 'Professional' Engineer.

Anyone can call themselves an engineer. About the only thing that you get from taking the test to be able to call yourself a 'Professional Engineer' is the right to testify in court as an 'expert'.

And, about the only engineering discipline that needs that for their job are civil engineers. You very rarely find electrical or mechanical engineers with a 'Professional' license.

I have a PhD in Electrical and Computer Engineering, and never have planned on and never will seek to be a 'Professional Engineer'.

It's a 0 value add.

So, feel free to tell anyone that you are an Engineer, just not a 'Professional Engineer' who is licensed to testify in court as an expert.

:)

Does it really matter? If it does, take the PE exam.

--
Jim Freeze

[Juan Leal]

Interesting update on this: 

http://www.todaysengineer.org/2011/Jan/licensure.asp

[Sean Moubry]

Here's a 2/2012 update on that initiative.

Nice to see it's being headed-up by Mitch Thornton @ SMU. Dallas represent.

--Sean

[Jim Freeze]

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:09 AM, Sean Moubry <se...@moubry.com> wrote:

Here's a 2/2012 update on that initiative.

That's good information, but it seems like it is heading down the road of most certifications - and will be worthless.

"The one-day exam will be open-book and consist of 80 multiple-choice questions given in two four-hour sessions"

--
Jim Freeze

[Sotonin]

Agreed. The industry has not expected or required any sort of certification for so long, the odds of this getting any steam are slim to none.

[Bill Kiskin]

All,

In my first programming job way back when (anyone remember Powerhouse from Cognos?) I was given a tiny little raise but the BIG title of "Software Engineer", and a pack of business cards.  Ever since then I've always called myself a "Software Developer" ;)

Cheers,

Bill

 

bil...@sbcglobal.net

---

From: Sotonin <sot...@gmail.com>
To: dall...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, March 13, 2012 10:03:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Dallas.rb] "We Are Not Software Engineers'

[Florence Lowe]

Back in '96 at my first job at IBM my title was "Software Engineer"… I've tried to keep up with this discussion - unsuccessfully, so am sure there are good points on both sides. Personally I don't see the issue. :)

Florence

[Daniel Waite]

> Personally I don't see the issue. :)

The only "issue" is that some people, at least one of whom has responded to this discussion, believes it's appropriate to use violence to prevent/stop some people from using the term "engineer" with respect to the work they perform.

Beyond that, no issue.

--

[Clifton King]

I just like to use a term that makes me feel good: Magician. 

Sent from my phone.

[Patrick Burleson]

On Mar 15, 2012, at 9:28 PM, Daniel Waite wrote:

> > Personally I don't see the issue. :)
>
> The only "issue" is that some people, at least one of whom has responded to this discussion, believes it's appropriate to use violence to prevent/stop some people from using the term "engineer" with respect to the work they perform.
>
> Beyond that, no issue.
>

Who advocated violence? I've re-read the entire thread and I don't see anyone saying violent means should be used to prevent anyone from using the term "engineer".

Patrick

[Daniel Waite]

> I've re-read the entire thread and I don't see anyone saying violent means should be used to prevent anyone from using the term "engineer".

> For the state of Texas that definition is a "big deal". In the state of Texas, you can not advertise yourself as a software engineer without being a licensed engineer. If you do, you could find yourself in a great deal of legal trouble.

"Legal" trouble is either violent trouble, or the threat of violent trouble.

Laws are commands backed up by guns.

So if calling myself an engineer while writing software for my clients
is an action the state considers unlawful, then I am being threatened
with violence for using a word in a manner some people don't like.

True -- no one said explicitly, violence will be brought upon you for
calling yourself an engineer without a license, but it is nonetheless
very much implied.

--

[Jesse Dearing]

In the same vein, you cannot call yourself an "architect" without actually being officially licensed. There is a story about a guy who was a landscaper who called himself the "Lawn Architect" and the state of Texas hit him with a $400,000 fine. (http://www.architectmagazine.com/legal-issues/trust-me-im-an-unlicensed-architect.aspx) So I guess all those people with those "architect" certifications got ripped off because they can't legally call themselves an architect.

Honestly for what most of us do in the software industry, the software developer title is sufficient. To me an engineer is someone who builds things that if they fail will cause people harm or death (I.e. bridges, buildings, life support systems). Despite what your boss thinks, nobody will die if your site goes down or that script you wrote doesn't get run.

- Jesse

[Daniel Waite]

> In the same vein, you cannot call yourself an "architect" without actually being officially licensed.

Yes I can. If I have the means to do something, I can do it.

What you are saying is that a body of men and women have commanded
others to not label themselves a certain way.

What you are saying is that if I call myself an "architect" in a
manner in which the state does not like, then I will be threatened
with a "fine".

If I refuse to pay, they will send thugs to take me away and put me into a cage.

If I resist, they will beat my ass and then throw me in a cage.

If I resist effectively, they will murder me.

Anytime you invoke the state to enforce laws, you are invoking violence.

--

[Jim Freeze]

Can't we just all get along?

--
Jim Freeze

[markmcspadden]

Agreed...

Let's build stuff this weekend and worry about what we're called next
week...or next year...or never again

kthxbye

On Mar 16, 4:41 pm, Jim Freeze <jimfre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can't we just all get along?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Daniel Waite <rabbitb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > In the same vein, you cannot call yourself an "architect" without
> > actually being officially licensed.
>
> > Yes I can. If I have the means to do something, I can do it.
>
> > What you are saying is that a body of men and women have commanded
> > others to not label themselves a certain way.
>
> > What you are saying is that if I call myself an "architect" in a
> > manner in which the state does not like, then I will be threatened
> > with a "fine".
>
> > If I refuse to pay, they will send thugs to take me away and put me into a
> > cage.
>
> > If I resist, they will beat my ass and then throw me in a cage.
>
> > If I resist effectively, they will murder me.
>
> > Anytime you invoke the state to enforce laws, you are invoking violence.
>
> > --
>

> > On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Jesse Dearing <jesse.dear...@gmail.com>

> > wrote:
> > > In the same vein, you cannot call yourself an "architect" without
> > actually
> > > being officially licensed. There is a story about a guy who was a
> > landscaper
> > > who called himself the "Lawn Architect" and the state of Texas hit him
> > with
> > > a $400,000 fine.
> > > (

> >http://www.architectmagazine.com/legal-issues/trust-me-im-an-unlicens...
> > )

> > > On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 7:47 PM, Patrick Burleson <pburle...@gmail.com>

[Christopher Krailo]

[Marlon Moyer]

Do you have a bunker filled with canned foods?

Sent from my iPad

[Dave Thomas]

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 4:41 PM, Jim Freeze <jimf...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can't we just all get along?

LOL 

[Jim Freeze]

I wonder if these guys are going to be sued?

http://www.lifearchitectcoaching.com/Home.html

http://joblifearchitect.com/

I doubt it.

What silliness there is in the world today.

--
Jim Freeze

[Jesse Dearing]

That sounds like a fantastic idea Mark!

- Jesse