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J. Don Clark  
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 More options Nov 9, 12:34 pm
From: "J. Don Clark" <jds...@charter.net>
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 11:34:16 -0600
Local: Mon, Nov 9 2009 12:34 pm
Subject: How about helping out?

Perhaps this will start another discussion, but I am seeking your input.  This morning I received a post asking what should go on the Communion Table in a CPC during Advent.  Let me quote:

Pastor Don:  We have having problems with what to do with our Communion Table.  It is so loaded down with items already that it looks "junky."  I am interested in how you feel about all this, since someone has given us a very large Advent Wreath to be placed on the Table during Advent, and I do not know what to do.  Right now we have the following on the table:  Two candles, a brass cross, an open Bible on a stand, a baptismal bowl and offering plates.  Sometimes we even have artificial flowers placed on the table.  I have not been a CP too many years, so I seek your wisdom.  Oh, and, by the way, why is one of the Advent Candles pink?
This is how I answered this young female minister:
If you are seeking my wisdom, you are in trouble, but I will give you my own ideas and belief here.
I would first remind your people that this is a Communion Table.  Then ask yourself (and the Session) how can our Communion Table communicate the meaning of the sacrament in the most meaningful way?
I was taught not to place anything on the table except the Communion Elements and, perhaps, offerings brought to the Lord in worship (never empty plates).  Many feel that offering plates on the table suggest that the table is a place where we do something for God, rather than a place where God does something for us, and, thus place these somewhere else, as well.  I just always placed them on the table as a part of our giving of ourselves to God in worship.
An open Bible on the table makes no sense to me.  The pulpit or lectern seem to be the places which testify to the importance of the Word.  I have always heard of "Pulpit Bibles," but never heard of a "Communion Table Bible."  Since my last church had a divided chancel, I always did everything from the lectern but preach the Word, including my reading of the Scripture.  I did not use a liturgist.
Flowers may beautify the table, but they don't add to the visual meaning of what the table is all about. They may even crowd out the items that would communicate the meaning of the table.  Of course, artificial flowers should never be used in worship.  If flowers are used, I would prefer that they be placed on flower stands made for that purpose.
Since we have adapted many of the Anglican traditions into many CP Churches, I see no problem with two candles (properly lit by acolytes who know what they are doing, and the congregation knowing what the represent), and a cross on the table, if there is no cross on the wall behind the table.
The table needs to testify to the wonder of God's gift to us in Christ.  To me, anything that detracts from this is out of place on the table.

As to the large Advent Wreath, I see no problem with this being placed on the table, although I would prefer another stand of some sort for it, placed to the side of the Communion Table.  I do feel that, as each candle is lit during Advent, there should be some explanation as to what it symbolizes.  (And there are various interpretations of even this.)  My preference is to refer to them as the four virtues - the hope candle, the peace candle, the joy candle, and the love candle, with the Christ candle in the center being lit on Christmas Eve.

My understanding that the pink candle relates to the link between Advent and Lent.  Both seasons have, historically, been seen as times of self-reflection in preparation for Christmas and Easter.  My understanding is that, in medieval times, the church designated the fifth Sunday in Lent as Laetare or "Joy" Sunday.  The same happened in the season of Advent with the third Sunday being set aside as a joyful interruption of the self-reflective worship of the rest of Advent.  (If that makes any sense to you.)  Of course, many of our churches simply use another purple candle instead of a pink one.  

This is just my take.  I could be off base on all of my feelings.

________________________________________________

Maybe some of you could give me your take on this.  The young minister I got this from is on the Cumberlist and needs other input.

J. Don

J. Don Clark
jds...@charter.net

"Live simply.  Love generously.  Care deeply.
     Speak kindly.  Leave the rest to God."


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Discussion subject changed to "Cumberlist: How about helping out?" by J. DAVID HESTER
J. DAVID HESTER  
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 More options Nov 9, 2:11 pm
From: "J. DAVID HESTER" <jdave...@icx.net>
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:11:02 -0500
Local: Mon, Nov 9 2009 2:11 pm
Subject: Re: Cumberlist: How about helping out?

J.Don:

Your post on Communion Table is very interesting - and informative.

In 1968 I did a research paper for the Colonial Church as we got ready to build a new sanctuary.  I utilized that paper again in 1973 as we were preparing to build a new sanctuary in Knoxville.

The research showed that in the Reformed tradition, the only thing properly on the Communion Table would be the Communion elements (on Communion Sunday).  On other Sundays the only proper things would be a chalice and a paten (bread plate).

Too many of our churches have utilized the Table for a catch-all - and it is encumbered with extraneous material.  I think your thoughtful explanation will be a big help.

J. David


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Discussion subject changed to "Cumberlist: Re: How about helping out?" by Sidney Milton
Sidney Milton  
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 More options Nov 9, 2:27 pm
From: Sidney Milton <slmil...@bellsouth.net>
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:27:37 -0600
Local: Mon, Nov 9 2009 2:27 pm
Subject: Re: Cumberlist: Re: How about helping out?

I know of several churches now that only use the Communion Table on the
day this sacrament is celebrated.  It is removed immediately after the
service and returned at the next appropriate time. So, the issue of what
should be placed on the table would not be relevant to them.
--


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Discussion subject changed to "Cumberlist: How about helping out?" by Marcy Tahmazian
Marcy Tahmazian  
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 More options Nov 9, 2:48 pm
From: Marcy Tahmazian <mpy...@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 11:48:40 -0800 (PST)
Local: Mon, Nov 9 2009 2:48 pm
Subject: Re: Cumberlist: How about helping out?
Our advent wreath and candles are placed on separate table that is covered with a white cloth. We place this down off of the stage area because families participate by lighting the advent candles. In all of the advent devotions and services I've used, the pink candle is the third Sunday of Advent and it is the Joy candle.

Marcy Tahmazian85 Oliver's Chapel RdBradford, TN  38316(731) 742-3097

--- On Mon, 11/9/09, J. Don Clark <jds...@charter.net> wrote:


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Discussion subject changed to "Cumberlist: Re: How about helping out?" by J. Don Clark
J. Don Clark  
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 More options Nov 9, 3:04 pm
From: "J. Don Clark" <jds...@charter.net>
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:04:15 -0600
Local: Mon, Nov 9 2009 3:04 pm
Subject: Re: Cumberlist: Re: How about helping out?

I received a private post asking why I pointed out the question came from a "young female minister."  First of all, it was true, but, secondly, it seems to me that it is our young female ministers who are seeking the proper way to do things in the church, perhaps, more than our young male ministers.  At least, that is true from the questions I am asked about things.

I will say, however, that I have a young male Pastor of my own who is very interested in making sure everything is done Scripturally, traditionally, and legally, when it comes to matters like this.  So, perhaps, I just get more questions from the few young female pastors that I know.

I appreciate the posts I have received so far on this subject.  

J. Don


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Discussion subject changed to "Cumberlist: How about helping out?" by Earheart Brown, Jay
Earheart Brown, Jay  
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 More options Nov 9, 3:07 pm
From: "Earheart Brown, Jay" <jebr...@memphisseminary.edu>
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:07:00 -0600
Subject: RE: Cumberlist: How about helping out?

Friends,

I agree wholeheartedly with J. Don. The communion table should be reserved for the elements. We often treat it like a table for general decoration, but doing so takes away from the power of the symbolism of communion, even on Sundays when we aren’t sharing the sacrament. The three central visual images of the sanctuary for Reformed churches should be the pulpit, the table, and the font, pointing to the centrality of the Word and Sacraments in Reformed worship.

Other tables should be used, ideally, for flowers, candles, offering plates, etc. I also agree completely that artificial flowers should be avoided.

For what it’s worth,

Jay

Daniel J. Earheart-Brown, Ph.D.
President and Professor of Theology
Memphis Theological Seminary
168 East Parkway South
Memphis, TN 38104
(901) 458-8232


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Discussion subject changed to "Cumberlist: Re: How about helping out?" by Charles McCaskey
Charles McCaskey  
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 More options Nov 9, 3:46 pm
From: "Charles McCaskey" <Char...@CookevilleCPChurch.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:46:26 -0600
Local: Mon, Nov 9 2009 3:46 pm
Subject: RE: Cumberlist: Re: How about helping out?
At Cookeville we light the 4th candle (pink) for Joy - we light the third candle as Love . . . the 1st as hope and the 2nd as peace.  From time to time we revert to an even older tradition of lighting the candles in this order 1)prophecy, 2) Bethlehem, 3) shepherd and 4) Angel - and we make the Angel candle the pink candle.  We have a complete stand with a large circle wreath with a Christ candle in the center that is lighted on Christmas eve - actually our Paschal candle is turned into the Advent wreath/candles - it is placed away from the communion table - and we have various families lead in the service of the lighting of the Advent candle for that day.  Just to add a bit more discussion to J. Don's comments - what most of us have is a communion table - but some churches have an altar table (which should/must be attached to the wall) - which offers a whole different set of understanding.  Just my take.

Grace and peace,
Charles


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J. Don Clark  
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 More options Nov 9, 7:56 pm
From: "J. Don Clark" <jds...@charter.net>
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 18:56:19 -0600
Local: Mon, Nov 9 2009 7:56 pm
Subject: Re: Cumberlist: Re: How about helping out?

Sidney:

I know you are correct about this.  I know of a PCA congregation in our area that does this.  However, I cannot understand how anyone can take the thing that stands for the "central act of Christian worship" and remove it from the Sanctuary.  

Like J. David mentioned, I know of several churches in the PCUSA which place a chalice and paten on the table when it is not being used for the Sacrament on that day.  My understanding is that, traditionally, these were made of clay, symbolizing that from which we come, but can be made of wood, silver, gold, etc.

Again, this latter statement is just something that I have been told by someone.

I have appreciated all the posts, both on the list and off.

J. Don

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paulbam...@aol.com  
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 More options Nov 16, 10:29 pm
From: paulbam...@aol.com
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:29:08 -0500
Local: Mon, Nov 16 2009 10:29 pm
Subject: Re: Cumberlist: Re: How about helping out?

HI,

If I may join the bandwagon, I agree with Jay and J. Don.wholeheartedly.  The Communion Table with its proper elements should reflect his grace a nd mercy to us and our worship of Him.

Paul Hom


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