If I understand what you are saying, if a person truly accepts Jesus Christ as his Savior, since we believe in the Preservation of Believers, that person will never truly become an "ex-Christian." Is this what you are inferring?
In what numbers it occurs I wouldn't know, but it's called converting when
one decides to embrace a different religion. I've known people who
converted to Judaism, and one in particular who converted to Islam. And of
course some convert from other religions to Christianity as Don just
reported.
Carroll
_____
From: cumberlist@googlegroups.com [mailto:cumberlist@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Lon Broyles
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:58 PM
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Subject: Cumberlist: ex-Christians
Carroll wrote , ". . . if you only talked to ex-Christians . . . ." Sorry,
but I don't know any. How do you become one??
----- Original Message ----- From: J. Don Clark To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:15 PM
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
Lon:
If I understand what you are saying, if a person truly accepts Jesus Christ as his Savior, since we believe in the Preservation of Believers, that person will never truly become an "ex-Christian." Is this what you are inferring?
J. Don
----- Original Message ----- From: Lon Broyles To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:57 PM
Subject: Cumberlist: ex-Christians
Carroll wrote , ". . . if you only talked to ex-Christians . . . ." Sorry, but I don't know any. How do you become one??
So if a person makes a profession of faith that the session recognizes and
administers baptism, and the person lives as a member of the community of
faith, and later decides to renounce their profession and go to another
religion, we're going to say "Well the whole thing was invalid to start
with?" Let's even say they were ordained as an elder which is another
affirmation of their relationship with God and the church. Just a do-over?
Of course there are many Christian denominations who do not agree with our
preservation doctrine, so maybe it's just the Methodists who produce the
occasional ex-Christians.
Carroll
_____
From: cumberlist@googlegroups.com [mailto:cumberlist@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Lon Broyles
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:23 PM
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
If I understand what you are saying, if a person truly accepts Jesus Christ
as his Savior, since we believe in the Preservation of Believers, that
person will never truly become an "ex-Christian." Is this what you are
inferring?
I know of a person who lived like he was a Christian, was an Elder, taught Bible Studies, led prayer groups, visited regularly for the church, but who, as church treasurer, was misusing church funds (fraud and theft) for over 30 years, until being caught. He never admitted that he had done anything wrong. He then left that church, moved on to another CPC (with the Session refusing to grant a letter of recommendation), and became an Elder there in a few short years.
Just because the Session recognizes the faith of a person, administers baptism, and the person seems to live as a member of the community of faith, does not always mean that person is really a Christian. Remember that our Lord said, "Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom."
I have a feeling that we have many in the Church who do not really commit to Christ. We sure can't judge anyone, (and I judged the person mentioned above, God forgive me) because we are all sinners, but, hopefully, we are sinners saved by the Grace of Christ, and are truly committed to our Lord.
I am a CP because of our doctrine. There are no other CPs in either my family or that of my wife. I seriously considered becoming a Methodist at one time in my ministry, when a great opportunity for service opened for me, but their rejection of the doctrine of Preservation of Believers was the reason I could not make the change. I just do not believe we can fall from salvation, because of the Grace of God, once we truly commit ourselves to the Lord.
Just my take. Take me on. This is a doctrine that has concerned me all of my ministry. Some of my best friends differ with me totally on this. Remember, when I attended Vanderbilt Divinity School, it was a Methodist Seminary. Most of my seminary friends were Methodists, since I was the only CP in school at the time.
----- Original Message ----- From: DRCR To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:34 PM
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
So if a person makes a profession of faith that the session recognizes and administers baptism, and the person lives as a member of the community of faith, and later decides to renounce their profession and go to another religion, we’re going to say “Well the whole thing was invalid to start with?” Let’s even say they were ordained as an elder which is another affirmation of their relationship with God and the church. Just a do-over?
Of course there are many Christian denominations who do not agree with our preservation doctrine, so maybe it’s just the Methodists who produce the occasional ex-Christians.
From: cumberlist@googlegroups.com [mailto:cumberlist@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Lon Broyles
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:23 PM
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
Absolutely.
----- Original Message -----
From: J. Don Clark
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:15 PM
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
Lon:
If I understand what you are saying, if a person truly accepts Jesus Christ as his Savior, since we believe in the Preservation of Believers, that person will never truly become an "ex-Christian." Is this what you are inferring?
J. Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Lon Broyles
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:57 PM
Subject: Cumberlist: ex-Christians
Carroll wrote , ". . . if you only talked to ex-Christians . . . ." Sorry, but I don't know any. How do you become one??
> I know of a person who lived like he was a Christian, was an Elder,
> taught Bible Studies, led prayer groups, visited regularly for the
> church, but who, as church treasurer, was misusing church funds
> (fraud and theft) for over 30 years, until being caught. He never
> admitted that he had done anything wrong. He then left that church,
> moved on to another CPC (with the Session refusing to grant a letter
> of recommendation), and became an Elder there in a few short years.
> Just because the Session recognizes the faith of a person,
> administers baptism, and the person seems to live as a member of the
> community of faith, does not always mean that person is really a > Christian. Remember that our Lord said, "Not everyone who calls me
> Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom."
> I have a feeling that we have many in the Church who do not really
> commit to Christ. We sure can't judge anyone, (and I judged the
> person mentioned above, God forgive me) because we are all sinners,
> but, hopefully, we are sinners saved by the Grace of Christ, and are
> truly committed to our Lord.
> I am a CP because of our doctrine. There are no other CPs in either
> my family or that of my wife. I seriously considered becoming a
> Methodist at one time in my ministry, when a great opportunity for
> service opened for me, but their rejection of the doctrine of
> Preservation of Believers was the reason I could not make the
> change. I just do not believe we can fall from salvation, because
> of the Grace of God, once we truly commit ourselves to the Lord.
> Just my take. Take me on. This is a doctrine that has concerned me
> all of my ministry. Some of my best friends differ with me totally
> on this. Remember, when I attended Vanderbilt Divinity School, it
> was a Methodist Seminary. Most of my seminary friends were
> Methodists, since I was the only CP in school at the time.
> J. Don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: DRCR
> To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:34 PM
> Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
> So if a person makes a profession of faith that the session
> recognizes and administers baptism, and the person lives as a member
> of the community of faith, and later decides to renounce their
> profession and go to another religion, we’re going to say “Well the
> whole thing was invalid to start with?” Let’s even say they were or > dained as an elder which is another affirmation of their relationshi > p with God and the church. Just a do-over?
> Of course there are many Christian denominations who do not agree
> with our preservation doctrine, so maybe it’s just the Methodists wh > o produce the occasional ex-Christians.
> Carroll
> From: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:cumberlist@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Lon Broyles
> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:23 PM
> To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
> Absolutely.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: J. Don Clark
> To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:15 PM
> Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
> Lon:
> If I understand what you are saying, if a person truly accepts Jesus
> Christ as his Savior, since we believe in the Preservation of
> Believers, that person will never truly become an "ex-Christian." > Is this what you are inferring?
> J. Don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lon Broyles
> To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:57 PM
> Subject: Cumberlist: ex-Christians
> Carroll wrote , ". . . if you only talked to ex- > Christians . . . ." Sorry, but I don't know any. How do you become
> one??
> <BR
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1466 - Release Date:
> 5/25/2008 6:49 PM
Then I guess those Muslim converts to Christianity were probably not true
Muslims to begin with?
Carroll
_____
From: cumberlist@googlegroups.com [mailto:cumberlist@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of J. Don Clark
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:17 PM
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
I know of a person who lived like he was a Christian, was an Elder, taught
Bible Studies, led prayer groups, visited regularly for the church, but who,
as church treasurer, was misusing church funds (fraud and theft) for over 30
years, until being caught. He never admitted that he had done anything
wrong. He then left that church, moved on to another CPC (with the Session
refusing to grant a letter of recommendation), and became an Elder there in
a few short years.
Just because the Session recognizes the faith of a person, administers
baptism, and the person seems to live as a member of the community of faith,
does not always mean that person is really a Christian. Remember that our
Lord said, "Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom."
I have a feeling that we have many in the Church who do not really commit to
Christ. We sure can't judge anyone, (and I judged the person mentioned
above, God forgive me) because we are all sinners, but, hopefully, we are
sinners saved by the Grace of Christ, and are truly committed to our Lord.
I am a CP because of our doctrine. There are no other CPs in either my
family or that of my wife. I seriously considered becoming a Methodist at
one time in my ministry, when a great opportunity for service opened for me,
but their rejection of the doctrine of Preservation of Believers was the
reason I could not make the change. I just do not believe we can fall from
salvation, because of the Grace of God, once we truly commit ourselves to
the Lord.
Just my take. Take me on. This is a doctrine that has concerned me all of
my ministry. Some of my best friends differ with me totally on this.
Remember, when I attended Vanderbilt Divinity School, it was a Methodist
Seminary. Most of my seminary friends were Methodists, since I was the only
CP in school at the time.
So if a person makes a profession of faith that the session recognizes and
administers baptism, and the person lives as a member of the community of
faith, and later decides to renounce their profession and go to another
religion, we're going to say "Well the whole thing was invalid to start
with?" Let's even say they were ordained as an elder which is another
affirmation of their relationship with God and the church. Just a do-over?
Of course there are many Christian denominations who do not agree with our
preservation doctrine, so maybe it's just the Methodists who produce the
occasional ex-Christians.
Carroll
_____
From: cumberlist@googlegroups.com [mailto:cumberlist@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Lon Broyles
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:23 PM
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
If I understand what you are saying, if a person truly accepts Jesus Christ
as his Savior, since we believe in the Preservation of Believers, that
person will never truly become an "ex-Christian." Is this what you are
inferring?
This is a very fascinating discussion. I do want to go on record saying that I totally believe in the preservation of believers. I just don't believe that I can know anyone's heart except my own...and even my knowledge of my own heart is far less than God's knowledge of my heart.
From: cumberlist@googlegroups.com [mailto:cumberlist@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of J. Don Clark
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:17 PM
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
I know of a person who lived like he was a Christian, was an Elder, taught Bible Studies, led prayer groups, visited regularly for the church, but who, as church treasurer, was misusing church funds (fraud and theft) for over 30 years, until being caught. He never admitted that he had done anything wrong. He then left that church, moved on to another CPC (with the Session refusing to grant a letter of recommendation), and became an Elder there in a few short years.
Just because the Session recognizes the faith of a person, administers baptism, and the person seems to live as a member of the community of faith, does not always mean that person is really a Christian. Remember that our Lord said, "Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom."
I have a feeling that we have many in the Church who do not really commit to Christ. We sure can't judge anyone, (and I judged the person mentioned above, God forgive me) because we are all sinners, but, hopefully, we are sinners saved by the Grace of Christ, and are truly committed to our Lord.
I am a CP because of our doctrine. There are no other CPs in either my family or that of my wife. I seriously considered becoming a Methodist at one time in my ministry, when a great opportunity for service opened for me, but their rejection of the doctrine of Preservation of Believers was the reason I could not make the change. I just do not believe we can fall from salvation, because of the Grace of God, once we truly commit ourselves to the Lord.
Just my take. Take me on. This is a doctrine that has concerned me all of my ministry. Some of my best friends differ with me totally on this. Remember, when I attended Vanderbilt Divinity School, it was a Methodist Seminary. Most of my seminary friends were Methodists, since I was the only CP in school at the time.
J. Don
----- Original Message -----
From: DRCR
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:34 PM
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
So if a person makes a profession of faith that the session recognizes and administers baptism, and the person lives as a member of the community of faith, and later decides to renounce their profession and go to another religion, we’re going to say “Well the whole thing was invalid to start with?” Let’s even say they were ordained as an elder which is another affirmation of their relationship with God and the church. Just a do-over?
Of course there are many Christian denominations who do not agree with our preservation doctrine, so maybe it’s just the Methodists who produce the occasional ex-Christians.
From: cumberlist@googlegroups.com [mailto:cumberlist@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Lon Broyles
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:23 PM
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
Absolutely.
----- Original Message -----
From: J. Don Clark
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:15 PM
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
Lon:
If I understand what you are saying, if a person truly accepts Jesus Christ as his Savior, since we believe in the Preservation of Believers, that person will never truly become an "ex-Christian." Is this what you are inferring?
J. Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Lon Broyles
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:57 PM
Subject: Cumberlist: ex-Christians
Carroll wrote , ". . . if you only talked to ex-Christians . . . ." Sorry, but I don't know any. How do you become one??
That is actually a great question. If we believe our doctrine of perseverance of the saints, then even though we turn from God...He never turns away from us. Are we not sealed by his Holy Spirit being marked as His possession? The verse from In Christ Alone explains this so well.
No power of Hell no scheme of man, can ever pluck me from His hand. Till He returns or calls me home, here in the power of Christ I stand.
I weep for joy everytime that I hear those words in song and am reminded of all the scriptures that tell us that salvation is not about what I am doing, but what Christ already did for me. The sad thing for the Muslim, is that salvation is still based upon what he is doing and not what God is doing. There really is no comparison between our two faiths. A Muslim can't stand on the promise that God preserves him regardless of the schemes of man and the powers of Hell that come against him. Only Christ gives us that promise.
Jason Chambers
"Aonaibh ri chéile" -Unite
"Devoted to God and Country, we unite in order to bring innovative and life transforming service throughout and beyond the Sea Services."
"When we pray we're actually humbling ourselves, and we're saying, 'God, I just can't do this thing called life without You. I need You. Please be powerfully present in every area of my life.'" ~Rebecca St James
From: lon...@urisp.net
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Subject: Cumberlist: ex-Christians
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:57:30 -0600
Carroll wrote , ". . . if you only talked to ex-Christians . . . ." Sorry, but I don't know any. How do you become one??
Muslims aren't sealed by the Holy Spirit either. Is it not God's gift of the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus who prevents us from falling? Muslims believe that Jesus promised another, and that the other he spoke of was another prophet. Muhammad claimed that he was that prophet that Jesus spoke of when in fact we know that Jesus meant the Holy Spirit who came at Pentecost. It is when Muslims are under the conviction of the Holy Spirit (not Muhammad) that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light that they convert to Christianity. They don't sing "Blessed Assurance" as we do because Islam has no assurances or guarantees. By that I mean that there is no Blessed Assurance of salvation found in Islam, which we have in receiving the Holy Spirit. It is based upon a scale of good deeds, i.e. works centered salvation. Our faith tells us that we can not enter heaven based upon our good deeds alone. Many "good men" perish to eternal damnation because they do not know Christ as their savior. Sadly many of these good men are people that we look up to in our families, community, and sadly even our churches sometimes. Did Jesus not say that many will say, "Lord, Lord, we cast out demons and prophesied in your name, and Jesus will say to them depart from me for I know you not." I have known people in my life that attend church religiously, but the evidence of the Holy Spirit operating in their lives is not present. I have known fellow CPs too that tend to believe in a theology more aligned with Methodists where they can fall from grace. They are tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine because they do not have the assurance that the Holy Spirit does the work of preserving them for the day of their redemption. In my opinion when your faith is based on good works, there is no serenity, because we can never be good enough. The only good that is in us is Jesus.
Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine. Oh what a foretaste of Glory Divine.
Heir of salvation, purchased of God. Born of His Spirit washed in his blood.
This is my story, this is my song.
Praising my Savior, all the day long.
This is my story, this is my song.
Praising my Savior, all the day long.
Jason Chambers
"Aonaibh ri chéile" -Unite
"Devoted to God and Country, we unite in order to bring innovative and life transforming service throughout and beyond the Sea Services."
"When we pray we're actually humbling ourselves, and we're saying, 'God, I just can't do this thing called life without You. I need You. Please be powerfully present in every area of my life.'" ~Rebecca St James
From: dr...@comcast.net
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 22:15:58 -0600
Then I guess those Muslim converts to Christianity were probably not true Muslims to begin with?
Carroll
From: cumberlist@googlegroups.com [mailto:cumberlist@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of J. Don Clark
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:17 PM
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
I know of a person who lived like he was a Christian, was an Elder, taught Bible Studies, led prayer groups, visited regularly for the church, but who, as church treasurer, was misusing church funds (fraud and theft) for over 30 years, until being caught. He never admitted that he had done anything wrong. He then left that church, moved on to another CPC (with the Session refusing to grant a letter of recommendation), and became an Elder there in a few short years.
Just because the Session recognizes the faith of a person, administers baptism, and the person seems to live as a member of the community of faith, does not always mean that person is really a Christian. Remember that our Lord said, "Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom."
I have a feeling that we have many in the Church who do not really commit to Christ. We sure can't judge anyone, (and I judged the person mentioned above, God forgive me) because we are all sinners, but, hopefully, we are sinners saved by the Grace of Christ, and are truly committed to our Lord.
I am a CP because of our doctrine. There are no other CPs in either my family or that of my wife. I seriously considered becoming a Methodist at one time in my ministry, when a great opportunity for service opened for me, but their rejection of the doctrine of Preservation of Believers was the reason I could not make the change. I just do not believe we can fall from salvation, because of the Grace of God, once we truly commit ourselves to the Lord.
Just my take. Take me on. This is a doctrine that has concerned me all of my ministry. Some of my best friends differ with me totally on this. Remember, when I attended Vanderbilt Divinity School, it was a Methodist Seminary. Most of my seminary friends were Methodists, since I was the only CP in school at the time.
So if a person makes a profession of faith that the session recognizes and administers baptism, and the person lives as a member of the community of faith, and later decides to renounce their profession and go to another religion, we’re going to say “Well the whole thing was invalid to start with?” Let’s even say they were ordained as an elder which is another affirmation of their relationship with God and the church. Just a do-over?
Of course there are many Christian denominations who do not agree with our preservation doctrine, so maybe it’s just the Methodists who produce the occasional ex-Christians.
Carroll
From: cumberlist@googlegroups.com [mailto:cumberlist@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Lon Broyles
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:23 PM
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
Absolutely.
----- Original Message -----
From: J. Don Clark
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:15 PM
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
Lon:
If I understand what you are saying, if a person truly accepts Jesus Christ as his Savior, since we believe in the Preservation of Believers, that person will never truly become an "ex-Christian." Is this what you are inferring?
J. Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Lon Broyles
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:57 PM
Subject: Cumberlist: ex-Christians
Carroll wrote , ". . . if you only talked to ex-Christians . . . ." Sorry, but I don't know any. How do you become one?? <BR
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1466 - Release Date: 5/25/2008 6:49 PM
"Hate in Christianity"? I was a bar room drunk for fourteen years so I know hate when I see it. I've never seen hate in Christianity. I've never seen any behavior from any "christian" that would shock me into turning my back on my miraclulous marvelous life changing experience with Jesus. I believe the Bible. I was changed - transformed - I have a new nature - sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption - nothing can reverse this - there has never been a thought to do so nor will there ever be one. This transformation included my mind. I am Christ and I never will want to be anyone elses. Anyone who does never knew Him.
----- Original Message ----- From: Vernon J. Sansom, Jr To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:05 PM
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
Just a question. Are you saying that a true Christian will not break the law?
On Nov 4, 2009, at 8:17 PM, "J. Don Clark" <jds...@charter.net> wrote:
I know of a person who lived like he was a Christian, was an Elder, taught Bible Studies, led prayer groups, visited regularly for the church, but who, as church treasurer, was misusing church funds (fraud and theft) for over 30 years, until being caught. He never admitted that he had done anything wrong. He then left that church, moved on to another CPC (with the Session refusing to grant a letter of recommendation), and became an Elder there in a few short years.
Just because the Session recognizes the faith of a person, administers baptism, and the person seems to live as a member of the community of faith, does not always mean that person is really a Christian. Remember that our Lord said, "Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom."
I have a feeling that we have many in the Church who do not really commit to Christ. We sure can't judge anyone, (and I judged the person mentioned above, God forgive me) because we are all sinners, but, hopefully, we are sinners saved by the Grace of Christ, and are truly committed to our Lord.
I am a CP because of our doctrine. There are no other CPs in either my family or that of my wife. I seriously considered becoming a Methodist at one time in my ministry, when a great opportunity for service opened for me, but their rejection of the doctrine of Preservation of Believers was the reason I could not make the change. I just do not believe we can fall from salvation, because of the Grace of God, once we truly commit ourselves to the Lord.
Just my take. Take me on. This is a doctrine that has concerned me all of my ministry. Some of my best friends differ with me totally on this. Remember, when I attended Vanderbilt Divinity School, it was a Methodist Seminary. Most of my seminary friends were Methodists, since I was the only CP in school at the time.
J. Don
----- Original Message ----- From: DRCR To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:34 PM
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
So if a person makes a profession of faith that the session recognizes and administers baptism, and the person lives as a member of the community of faith, and later decides to renounce their profession and go to another religion, we’re going to say “Well the whole thing was invalid to start with?” Let’s even say they were ordained as an elder which is another affirmation of their relationship with God and the church. Just a do-over?
Of course there are many Christian denominations who do not agree with our preservation doctrine, so maybe it’s just the Methodists who produce the occasional ex-Christians.
From: cumberlist@googlegroups.com [mailto:cumberlist@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Lon Broyles
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:23 PM
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
Absolutely.
----- Original Message -----
From: J. Don Clark
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:15 PM
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
Lon:
If I understand what you are saying, if a person truly accepts Jesus Christ as his Savior, since we believe in the Preservation of Believers, that person will never truly become an "ex-Christian." Is this what you are inferring?
J. Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Lon Broyles
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:57 PM
Subject: Cumberlist: ex-Christians
Carroll wrote , ". . . if you only talked to ex-Christians . . . ." Sorry, but I don't know any. How do you become one??
This is Troy Green here from Petersburg. I've been following the discussion
and think several folks have offered wonderful summations of what the Bible
teaches about the preservation of believers (I believe its much more
important that it's in the Bible than its in our Confession) and the
exclusivity of Christ for salvation. The only thing I would add is that the
different parties are defined more by the basis of their arguments than by
difference in beliefs perhaps. Carroll and Dwight seem to be coming from an
assumption based on love while the others are arguing from a logical or
rational basis. Now, while the Bible never tells us "God is Logic" it does
say "God is Love" so one point for Carroll and Dwight. However, this love is
not an emotion. The Love that God Is is action, truth and power for the
good* of creation. The mistake in Carroll's position is that it seems to be
based on the emotion of God's love rather than it's holiness. Please,
explain if there is a different basis.
If we base our doctrine on how we feel it can never be settled. If God
really abandoned us all the times we felt like He did we would be a pitiful
sight and if feeling forgiven is the reason we should believe we are
forgiven we would be miserable indeed. Likewise, if we become a Christian or
stop being a Christian by our own actions we leave God (and His love) out of
it all together. Doctrines of salvation can't be grounded in human emotions
or human action.
Instead, the faith handed down to us is based on the eternal Word of God
(meaning both the Bible and Christ) and God's faithfulness. That's why
saints are preserved. Salvation is a work of God. That's why salvation is
not extended to Muslims, not because God doesn't emotionally love them, but
because God ONLY saves people through Christ ( for example, Acts 4:12). God
doesn't save people through Muhammad, or church attendance, eldership or
membership.
We don't get a vote on it. I don't think God cares if we like it. From the
beginning human beings have been dissatisfied with how God does things, but
I don't see God changing to accommodate the demands of our thoughts,
emotions, sense of justice or social mores. Muslims and all the lost are
both an object of God's desire/love AND living it defiant rebellion against
Him. All the human love and acceptance and respect in the world won't save
them from the justified wrath of God should they remain in rebellion. A
bitter, selfish, hateful believer in Christ will live eternally with God
because he or she is IN CHRIST, but anyone who has rejected Christ will be
cast into the Lake of Fire no matter how "good," "sincere," or religious he
or she was.
Sorry for the ramble. What I'm trying to say is that both parties need to
recognize that you are not talking about the same thing. Also, we should ask
ourselves how this debate would look if our emotions were not engaged. Or we
could change the discussion to how everyone feels then we could all be
right. :)
Grace,
T
*and this "good" is not the same thing as pleasant or comfortable it is
whatever brings the world back under the reign of God. A not so perfect way
I say this is "God is not working to make us happy but to make us healthy"
_____
From: cumberlist@googlegroups.com [mailto:cumberlist@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Lon Broyles
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 5:49 AM
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
"Hate in Christianity"? I was a bar room drunk for fourteen years so I know
hate when I see it. I've never seen hate in Christianity. I've never seen
any behavior from any "christian" that would shock me into turning my back
on my miraclulous marvelous life changing experience with Jesus. I believe
the Bible. I was changed - transformed - I have a new nature - sealed by
the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption - nothing can reverse this -
there has never been a thought to do so nor will there ever be one. This
transformation included my mind. I am Christ and I never will want to be
anyone elses. Anyone who does never knew Him.
You bear a mighty witness. Your testimony reminds me of a statement made by Dr. Arnold Rhodes years ago in a class at Louisville Presbyterian Seminary. He said, "remember this, a person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with just a theory".
It is Christ who saves, and Christ who keeps us. Blessed be the name of the Lord.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lon Broyles <lon...@urisp.net>
Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009 6:49
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
> "Hate in Christianity"? I was a bar room drunk for > fourteen years so I know hate when I see it. I've never > seen hate in Christianity. I've never seen any behavior from any > "christian" that would shock me into turning my back on my > miraclulous marvelous life changing experience with Jesus.
> I believe the Bible. I was changed - transformed - I have > a new nature - sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of > redemption - nothing can reverse this - there has never been a > thought to do so nor will there ever be one. This transformation > included my mind. I am Christ and I never will want to be anyone > elses. Anyone who does never knew Him.
> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dwight Liles > To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:55 PM
> Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
> I know a couple. It does happen. And a big > part of why it happens is when Christians see hate in > Christianity. Believe me, it happens.
> Peace,
> Dwight Liles
> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lon Broyles > To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:57 PM
> Subject: Cumberlist: ex-Christians
> Carroll wrote , ". . . if you only talked to > ex-Christians . . . ." Sorry, but I don't know any. How do > you become one??
But a person converted by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and grounded in the Scriptures is never at the mercy of a person with just an experience.
Blessings,
Todd
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:49:44 -0500
From: bertorpato...@insightbb.com
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
God bless you Lon Broyles.
You bear a mighty witness. Your testimony reminds me of a statement made by Dr. Arnold Rhodes years ago in a class at Louisville Presbyterian Seminary. He said, "remember this, a person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with just a theory".
It is Christ who saves, and Christ who keeps us. Blessed be the name of the Lord.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lon Broyles <lon...@urisp.net>
Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009 6:49
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
> "Hate in Christianity"? I was a bar room drunk for > fourteen years so I know hate when I see it. I've never > seen hate in Christianity. I've never seen any behavior from any > "christian" that would shock me into turning my back on my > miraclulous marvelous life changing experience with Jesus.
> I believe the Bible. I was changed - transformed - I have > a new nature - sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of > redemption - nothing can reverse this - there has never been a > thought to do so nor will there ever be one. This transformation > included my mind. I am Christ and I never will want to be anyone > elses. Anyone who does never knew Him.
> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dwight Liles > To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:55 PM
> Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
> I know a couple. It does happen. And a big > part of why it happens is when Christians see hate in > Christianity. Believe me, it happens.
> Peace,
> Dwight Liles
> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lon Broyles > To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:57 PM
> Subject: Cumberlist: ex-Christians
> Carroll wrote , ". . . if you only talked to > ex-Christians . . . ." Sorry, but I don't know any. How do > you become one??
I seldom post - as a promise to my mentor Rev. John Lovelace and my beautiful wife of 46 years, Wanda Lou . . . but . . .
I cherish being in the ministry - I have been a child of Christ for 57 years . . . I have had the opportunity to witness (at one time making sure that a Muslim was accorded the opportunity to pray his obligatory five times - as his chaplain in the Army - and at another time making sure that an Orthodox Jew received the proper diet - as chaplains we are responsible for free access) - and I can feel the intense desire to share the good news of Christ . . .
I celebrate the Word - in the beginning, which was God, and which dwells among us . . . but I always am amazed at how we sometimes treat one another in the Christian faith - someone has said we are the only religion that shoots it's wounded.
I have just come from the Civil Rights Museum in Memphis - and one again became aware of how we Christians treat other Christians (sometimes in the name of Christ). I just got an e-mail telling me that President Obama is a Muslim (I don't mean to be political, but this from a dedicated Christian).
I remember what Mahatma Gandhi said (the great non-violent non-Christian leader) "I would have become a Christian if they had only practiced what they believed." Today I am more concerned how we Christians treat one another than how we react toward a non-Christian (as important as that may be).
Our Chaplain endorsing agency has just included another Presbyterian Church - the Korean Presbyterian Church in America - an most of their churches meet for prayer every morning at 4:00 AM - before they begin their busy day - and when they pray they shout "Jesus, Jesus" before their prayers (I was told they take seriously the admonition to "call on the name of Jesus" in prayer). I am learning every day from other Christians. I will daily witness for my Lord - but I will also celebrate the many avenues we Christians share. Today, I'm celebrating the magnificent faith we are a part of, and hoping that we Christians can indeed love one another. And I hope that all (Christian and non Christian) will look at us and say, "Wow, see how they love one another! - maybe they can teach me something about where they get such love."
Ahh , but it is not the experience that matters but the lens we use to
understand the experience - if we use the heart which is deceitful above all
things we are in trouble, if we use scripture we might be better off
klm
From: cumberlist@googlegroups.com [mailto:cumberlist@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Todd Seay
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 10:25 AM
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
But a person converted by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and
grounded in the Scriptures is never at the mercy of a person with just an
experience.
Blessings,
Todd
_____
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:49:44 -0500
From: bertorpato...@insightbb.com
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
God bless you Lon Broyles.
You bear a mighty witness. Your testimony reminds me of a statement made by
Dr. Arnold Rhodes years ago in a class at Louisville Presbyterian Seminary.
He said, "remember this, a person with an experience is never at the mercy
of a person with just a theory".
It is Christ who saves, and Christ who keeps us. Blessed be the name of the
Lord.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lon Broyles <lon...@urisp.net>
Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009 6:49
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
> "Hate in Christianity"? I was a bar room drunk for > fourteen years so I know hate when I see it. I've never > seen hate in Christianity. I've never seen any behavior from any > "christian" that would shock me into turning my back on my > miraclulous marvelous life changing experience with Jesus.
> I believe the Bible. I was changed - transformed - I have > a new nature - sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of > redemption - nothing can reverse this - there has never been a > thought to do so nor will there ever be one. This transformation > included my mind. I am Christ and I never will want to be anyone > elses. Anyone who does never knew Him.
> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dwight Liles > To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:55 PM
> Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
> I know a couple. It does happen. And a big > part of why it happens is when Christians see hate in > Christianity. Believe me, it happens.
> Peace,
> Dwight Liles
> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lon Broyles > To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:57 PM
> Subject: Cumberlist: ex-Christians
> Carroll wrote , ". . . if you only talked to > ex-Christians . . . ." Sorry, but I don't know any. How do > you become one??
From: lon...@urisp.net
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 05:49:16 -0600
"Hate in Christianity"? I was a bar room drunk for fourteen years so I know hate when I see it. I've never seen hate in Christianity. I've never seen any behavior from any "christian" that would shock me into turning my back on my miraclulous marvelous life changing experience with Jesus. I believe the Bible. I was changed - transformed - I have a new nature - sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption - nothing can reverse this - there has never been a thought to do so nor will there ever be one. This transformation included my mind. I am Christ and I never will want to be anyone elses. Anyone who does never knew Him.
I just heard something on the radio I thought was interesting.
There can be no RIGHT if there is no Wrong. Likewise, there is no TRUTH if there can be no falsehood.
If we cannot say what is wrong or false with anything else - then how can we say that what we believe is true or right?
Interesting discussion
John
--- On Thu, 11/5/09, nicholas chambers <nacham...@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: nicholas chambers <nacham...@hotmail.com>
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 12:47 PM
Amen. Nothing someone else does would ever make me turn my back on Christ. That's all I can say to that
From: lon...@urisp.net
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 05:49:16 -0600
"Hate in Christianity"? I was a bar room drunk for fourteen years so I know hate when I see it. I've never seen hate in Christianity. I've never seen any behavior from any "christian" that would shock me into turning my back on my miraclulous marvelous life changing experience with Jesus. I believe the Bible. I was changed - transformed - I have a new nature - sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption - nothing can reverse this - there has never been a thought to do so nor will there ever be one. This transformation included my mind. I am Christ and I never will want to be anyone elses. Anyone who does never knew Him.
Does that include a regenerated born-again heart? Is the born again regenerated heart "deceitful above all things"? The experience as defined by scripture is all that matters!!
----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Mariott To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 11:25 AM
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
Ahh , but it is not the experience that matters but the lens we use to understand the experience - if we use the heart which is deceitful above all things we are in trouble, if we use scripture we might be better off
klm
From: cumberlist@googlegroups.com [mailto:cumberlist@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Todd Seay
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 10:25 AM
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
But a person converted by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and grounded in the Scriptures is never at the mercy of a person with just an experience.
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:49:44 -0500
From: bertorpato...@insightbb.com
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
God bless you Lon Broyles.
You bear a mighty witness. Your testimony reminds me of a statement made by Dr. Arnold Rhodes years ago in a class at Louisville Presbyterian Seminary. He said, "remember this, a person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with just a theory".
It is Christ who saves, and Christ who keeps us. Blessed be the name of the Lord.
Bert
----- Original Message -----
From: Lon Broyles <lon...@urisp.net>
Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009 6:49
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
> "Hate in Christianity"? I was a bar room drunk for > fourteen years so I know hate when I see it. I've never > seen hate in Christianity. I've never seen any behavior from any > "christian" that would shock me into turning my back on my > miraclulous marvelous life changing experience with Jesus.
> I believe the Bible. I was changed - transformed - I have > a new nature - sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of > redemption - nothing can reverse this - there has never been a > thought to do so nor will there ever be one. This transformation > included my mind. I am Christ and I never will want to be anyone > elses. Anyone who does never knew Him.
> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dwight Liles > To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:55 PM
> Subject: Cumberlist: Re: ex-Christians
> I know a couple. It does happen. And a big > part of why it happens is when Christians see hate in > Christianity. Believe me, it happens.
> Peace,
> Dwight Liles
> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lon Broyles > To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:57 PM
> Subject: Cumberlist: ex-Christians
> Carroll wrote , ". . . if you only talked to > ex-Christians . . . ." Sorry, but I don't know any. How do > you become one??
One of our camp kids posted this as his facebook status the other day. It is from DC Talk - "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply find unbelievable."
Debbie
From: Char...@CookevilleCPChurch.org
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Subject: Cumberlist: RE: God is Love
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 10:51:25 -0600
I seldom post – as a promise to my mentor Rev. John Lovelace and my beautiful wife of 46 years, Wanda Lou . . . but . . .
I cherish being in the ministry – I have been a child of Christ for 57 years . . . I have had the opportunity to witness (at one time making sure that a Muslim was accorded the opportunity to pray his obligatory five times – as his chaplain in the Army – and at another time making sure that an Orthodox Jew received the proper diet - as chaplains we are responsible for free access) – and I can feel the intense desire to share the good news of Christ . . .
I celebrate the Word – in the beginning, which was God, and which dwells among us . . . but I always am amazed at how we sometimes treat one another in the Christian faith – someone has said we are the only religion that shoots it’s wounded.
I have just come from the Civil Rights Museum in Memphis – and one again became aware of how we Christians treat other Christians (sometimes in the name of Christ). I just got an e-mail telling me that President Obama is a Muslim (I don’t mean to be political, but this from a dedicated Christian).
I remember what Mahatma Gandhi said (the great non-violent non-Christian leader) “I would have become a Christian if they had only practiced what they believed.” Today I am more concerned how we Christians treat one another than how we react toward a non-Christian (as important as that may be).
Our Chaplain endorsing agency has just included another Presbyterian Church – the Korean Presbyterian Church in America – an most of their churches meet for prayer every morning at 4:00 AM – before they begin their busy day – and when they pray they shout “Jesus, Jesus” before their prayers (I was told they take seriously the admonition to “call on the name of Jesus” in prayer). I am learning every day from other Christians. I will daily witness for my Lord – but I will also celebrate the many avenues we Christians share. Today, I’m celebrating the magnificent faith we are a part of, and hoping that we Christians can indeed love one another. And I hope that all (Christian and non Christian) will look at us and say, “Wow, see how they love one another! – maybe they can teach me something about where they get such love.”
----- Original Message ----- From: Debra Shanks To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:08 PM
Subject: Cumberlist: Re: God is Love
One of our camp kids posted this as his facebook status the other day. It is from DC Talk - "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply find unbelievable."
Debbie
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---
From: Char...@CookevilleCPChurch.org
To: cumberlist@googlegroups.com
Subject: Cumberlist: RE: God is Love
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 10:51:25 -0600
I seldom post – as a promise to my mentor Rev. John Lovelace and my beautiful wife of 46 years, Wanda Lou . . . but . . .
I cherish being in the ministry – I have been a child of Christ for 57 years . . . I have had the opportunity to witness (at one time making sure that a Muslim was accorded the opportunity to pray his obligatory five times – as his chaplain in the Army – and at another time making sure that an Orthodox Jew received the proper diet - as chaplains we are responsible for free access) – and I can feel the intense desire to share the good news of Christ . . .
I celebrate the Word – in the beginning, which was God, and which dwells among us . . . but I always am amazed at how we sometimes treat one another in the Christian faith – someone has said we are the only religion that shoots it’s wounded.
I have just come from the Civil Rights Museum in Memphis – and one again became aware of how we Christians treat other Christians (sometimes in the name of Christ). I just got an e-mail telling me that President Obama is a Muslim (I don’t mean to be political, but this from a dedicated Christian).
I remember what Mahatma Gandhi said (the great non-violent non-Christian leader) “I would have become a Christian if they had only practiced what they believed.” Today I am more concerned how we Christians treat one another than how we react toward a non-Christian (as important as that may be).
Our Chaplain endorsing agency has just included another Presbyterian Church – the Korean Presbyterian Church in America – an most of their churches meet for prayer every morning at 4:00 AM – before they begin their busy day – and when they pray they shout “Jesus, Jesus” before their prayers (I was told they take seriously the admonition to “call on the name of Jesus” in prayer). I am learning every day from other Christians. I will daily witness for my Lord – but I will also celebrate the many avenues we Christians share. Today, I’m celebrating the magnificent faith we are a part of, and hoping that we Christians can indeed love one another. And I hope that all (Christian and non Christian) will look at us and say, “Wow, see how they love one another! – maybe they can teach me something about where they get such love.”
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