What is an Expert Die (or a Master Die)?

[hot...@verizon.net]

I understand WT Hard Dice. I can see how a power could be reliably on or off. I can understand Wiggle Dice too – a power could be used with reliable precision even if it had a limited range, for example.

 

I don’t understand Reign’s ED or MD. While I’m not that good myself, I used to train at a world-renowned martial arts school. In my experience, the better a martial artist was, the more likely they were to be able to hit where they wanted on an opponent’s body. To me, in the real world, this means that one’s ability to target any given location is directly related to one’s overall skill level. In Reign, someone with a Body 3 and Fight 5 would have a dice pool of 8. Someone else with a Body 3, Fight 2 with one ED, would have a dice pool of 5+HD. I don’t see what in the real world this represents. I find it hard to understand how someone with only 6 dice finds it significantly easier to target any chosen part of a foe while being less able to hit them in the first place.

 

The only exception to this that I might know of is that some basically untrained people have a special combat trick that they have learned. For example, some thugs who are not really trained fighters might have developed a very good uppercut sucker-punch. Or, a school-yard bully may not be a good wrestler generally, but they may know how to execute one sort of standing headlock pretty well. Some commando training meant to create a competent hand-to-hand fighter in little time has been based on teaching a handful of such tricks.

 

Such tricks tend to be one-shots though, and not represent an overall ability to hit wherever a particular fighter wants. I don’t know how one could be much better at targeting any and all given locations than someone with, in Reign terms, a significantly larger overall dice pool.

 

This is true of non-combat skills too. I don’t see how a less experienced cook is more likely to roll two 10s (due to having a HD in cooking that is set to 10 in advance) than a chef with a larger die pool.

 

I have the similar uncertainty about MD, and what they are supposed to represent. What is an MD meant to simulate?  And what about ED?        

Hotjets

[The Unshaven]

> I don’t understandReign’sED or MD. While I’m not that good myself, I used to train at a world-renowned martial arts school. In my experience, the better a martial artist was, the more likely they were to be able to hit where they wanted >on an opponent’s body. To me, in the real world, this means that one’s ability to target any given location is directly related to one’s overall skill level. InReign, someone with a Body 3 and Fight 5 would have a dice pool of 8. Someone >else with a Body 3, Fight 2 with one ED, would have a dice pool of 5+HD. I don’t see what in the real world this represents. I find it hard to understand how someone with only 6 dice finds it significantly easier to target any chosen part of >a foe while being less able to hit them in the first place.

I think the big difference is that an ED is *not* the same thing as a
Hard Dice. An Expert Dice is something from NEMESIS rather than Wild
Talents, and is a dice you set to whatever number you want *before*
you roll the rest of your dice.

This means that in your example of someone rolling 5 + ED is
essentially making a called shot to a body location *the entire
time.* Which basically accounts for someone with greater skill being
better at hitting where they want. A Master Dice is someone with even
more training, skill and overall awesome than this, so they roll their
Master Dice after everything else. Rather than simply being better at
choosing what to hit and doing so, they have intimate knowledge of the
flow of combat: they know where they'd like to hit, but they also
know where they *can* hit, and adapt instantly. ie, with an MD, it's
impossible to *miss.* However, the target can be better at dodging
than you are at hitting them, if their defence exceeds your attack.

- The Unshaven

[Allan Goodall]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 1:16 PM, The Unshaven <kve...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think the big difference is that an ED is *not* the same thing as a
Hard Dice.  An Expert Dice is something from NEMESIS rather than Wild
Talents, and is a dice you set to whatever number you want *before*
you roll the rest of your dice.

An Expert Die also eats a 1d penalty, and when it eats the penalty it is rolled as a regular die.

In that way, it's like the Spray Extra in WT. It's pretty useful for doing multiple actions.

--
Allan Goodall            http://www.hyperbear.com
agoo...@hyperbear.com
awgo...@gmail.com

[Daniel Kane]

I didn't know that -- or maybe I did and forgot.  That's pretty significant.

~Daniel

[Serandel]

On 26 oct, 19:41, Allan Goodall <awgood...@gmail.com> wrote:

> An Expert Die also eats a 1d penalty, and when it eats the penalty it is
> rolled as a regular die.

Seriously? I can't find this in the Reign manual... (probably it will
be my fault ;)

[Allan Goodall]

This is on page 9 of NEMESIS, where they were introduced, but they are different in other games. I just always treated them like the NEMESIS Expert Dice, as that's where I learned about them.

I noticed that the "penalty eating" ability is not listed in the Wild Talents Essential Edition for Expert Dice (page 20, under alternatives to Hard Dice).

Personally, I think it should be part of Expert Dice. Otherwise they aren't really worth the price. Two Expert Dice are not as useful in most situations as two Hard Dice, but cost the same.

FWIW, Silver Pavilion will use the NEMESIS version of Expert Dice.

[Serandel]

2009/10/28 Allan Goodall <awgo...@gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Serandel <sera...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 26 oct, 19:41, Allan Goodall <awgood...@gmail.com> wrote:

> An Expert Die also eats a 1d penalty, and when it eats the penalty it is
> rolled as a regular die.

Seriously? I can't find this in the Reign manual... (probably it will
be my fault ;)

This is on page 9 of NEMESIS, where they were introduced, but they are different in other games. I just always treated them like the NEMESIS Expert Dice, as that's where I learned about them.

I noticed that the "penalty eating" ability is not listed in the Wild Talents Essential Edition for Expert Dice (page 20, under alternatives to Hard Dice).

Personally, I think it should be part of Expert Dice. Otherwise they aren't really worth the price. Two Expert Dice are not as useful in most situations as two Hard Dice, but cost the same.

Ah, then I think it's just different in Reign, because it doesn't say anything about this rule and, what's more, MD are more expensive than ED there.

Thanks a lot for your explanation.

--
Sergio Delgado -- Serandel
mailto:sera...@gmail.com 

The secret of getting successful work out of your trained men lies
in one nutshell -- in the clearness of the instructions they receive
-- General Baden-Powell

 

[Chris Cooper]

On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Serandel <sera...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ah, then I think it's just different in Reign, because it doesn't say anything about this rule and, what's more, MD are more expensive than ED there.

 

Yeah, and in Reign your dicepool also loses the special die first if there's a dicepool penalty.

 

C.

[Daniel Kane]

(which is why aiming is super-super-awesome!)

[Kevin L. Nault]

On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 2:09 AM, Chris Cooper <insec...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah, and in Reign your dicepool also loses the special die first if there's a dicepool penalty.

 

Isn't it usually HD/ED lost first, then normal dice, then WD/MD?

--
Religion, or the duty which we owe our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force and violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience.
 -- James Madison

[Carl]

Not in REIGN. Greg changed that.

[Hotjets]

Thanks for the replies. Opening with the HD idea was my mistake. I'll
rephrase my question.

What does a MD or ED mean in real-world terms. I thought that, unless
you were some sort of super and had HD or WD, the more dice you have
in a skill, the greater your mastery of that skill. If, for example,
Martial Artist One has Body 3 and 2d+MD skill hand-to-hand. Martial
Artist Two has Body 3 and 6 regular dice in hand-to-hand. What does
that say about their respective training? Does this mean that MA2 has
had unrealistic training? Does this mean that MA2 knows lots of
techniques but doesn't really know how to apply them? If so, why are
they a more generally skilled fighter? Why should someone who has
done the same amount of training (2d+MD and 6d being the same cost) be
much better at hitting any chosen target but appreciably worse at just
hitting in general? A certain lack of certainty is quite normal in
combat, but as a rule, the more generally skilled the martial artists
that I've known, the more accurate they were too.

Perhaps MA2 has the advantage because they can drop a die make an
aimed shot anyway? If so, I'd still be interested in knowing what the
ED or MD simulates.

The same question goes to non-combat skill. Chef1 has Mind 2 and
Cooking 3d+WD. Chef2 has Mind 2 and 7d in cooking. Chef1 is much more
likely to win a cooking contest. What sort of actual sort of ability
to employ a skill does this simulate?

Thanks

Hotjets

[Chris]

IMO if you are comparing 2d+MD and 6d and it's the same cost then I would say that is the same amount of training.  The martial artist with 2d+MD focused on a style that is all about "called shots" while the other martial artist had more generalized training.

 

As for 3d+WD and 7d, well WD are only available to supers aren't they?  Unforunately I don't have my books in front of me.  But if it's supers only then the first guy has a super cooking ability while the other person has just straight training.

 

That is how I see the examples.

 

 

 

 

 

-Chris

[Jakob Pape]

2009/10/30 Chris <the.rende...@gmail.com>

IMO if you are comparing 2d+MD and 6d and it's the same cost then I would say that is the same amount of training.  The martial artist with 2d+MD focused on a style that is all about "called shots" while the other martial artist had more generalized training.

I might say the difference is more about the MD martial artist focussing on technical perfection, at a potential cost of application. After all, in ideal circumstances (no penalties) he will never miss. His opponent may block, but he will have to make the effort to block - whereas 6d is more penalty-resistant, but can fail entirely.

--
Jakob Pape

"Sometimes subtlety comes in the form of large explosions and jammed open airlock doors."

My Website: http://chaomancer.net
My Blog: http://chaomancer.net/blog

[hkdharmon]

I my view (martial arts as an example assuming the even point costs
for skills), someone with a MD and few regular dice, is technically
perfect, but lacks some practical skills. He knows a ton of moves very
well, but perhaps is slow and inexperienced in combat. He always does
his moves correctly, but his timing may be weak. For example: A
martial artist that never gets in fights, but works on the techniques
a lot. If you do not present a strong defense, he will hit you, but a
strong defense will frustrate him. 1d+MD (25)
An ED means that you have someone who is accurate. He may practice
technique and sparring a lot, quicker and more experienced than the
guy with the MD. Example: A tougher martial artist that focuses on
his favorite moves and drills them to perfection and spars regularly.
Give him a chance and he will knock you out. 3d+ED (25)
Someone with a bunch of regular dice is faster and tougher with lots
of experience, but he is kind of sloppy. He gets what he gets and has
trouble controlling the fight. However, he is quite dangerous. 5d
(25). Example: Your local tough guy with little training who will try
to overwhelm you with punches and kicks.
However, if you take several regular dice and and MD you are
frighteningly scary. You have lots of dice and ALWAYS HIT!

[Hotjets]

There have been good replies. Thanks.

Now, I'm wondering if buying a MD is really worth it. For example, I
could buy 2d+MD in Fight, or 4d in Fight for my Body 3 PC. If I did
the former and wanted to make a head shot, I'd set the MD to 10 and
roll 5 dice. But, if I had the latter, I'd drop a die, set another to
10, and still roll 5 dice. And, in the latter case, if I chose to not
aim, I'd have 7d to strike with. It seems that not having a MD
actually allows for more flexibility in combat, an the same degree of
accuracy if one wants to make a called shot. In what way is having a
MD really an advantage?

Hotjets

[The Unshaven]

>In what way is having a
> MD really an advantage?
>
> Hotjets

The key part about the MD in your
example is that it's not a case of setting
the MD to 10 and rolling 5 dice. You
roll the 5 dice and *then* decide what to
set the result to, meaning that in comparison
to the called shot you can't *miss,* the worst
that can happen is:

a) You don't get to hit the location you'd find
ideal, but can still select from every other dice rolled
to decide to make a match with
b) The person being attacked *might* be better
at dodging than you.

The other thing about MD is that they also apply
to defensive rolls, whereas you can't use the called-shot
mechanic there.

In terms of conceptualising the difference between
more dice and an MD, I always think of the fact that your
capacities rise as the numbers of dice you are rolling do.

As an example, in Wild Talents, the more dice you have
in a power the more Stuff you can effect, regarding what is
relevant. More mass, range, speed, etc. If it doesn't make
sense for your telekinetic to be able to lift a truck, but you want
her to have flawless control of small objects, the Wiggle Dice
(same as MD) are what you want.

Likewise, with Martial Arts. If I were building a more elderly
character
who was unlikely to have incredible Body or Coordination, I'd give
them
MDs in their skills. They might not have as much strength or
coordination
as younger fighters, but they have been practicing forever.

In being a chef, an MD means you cannot fail a roll... no matter the
adverse
circumstances. Trying to impress the king, but assassins break in
through
the kitchen, trashing the place before being captured, and ruining
your
project? No matter, an MD means that you can salvage something from
the remains which somehow incorporates the disaster into the dish in
a way seen as witty and masterful at court.

Depending on circumstances and pitches from players, I have been known
to knock out an MD *after* other dice in the set, and allow it to be
reassigned.
Not so much in combat, but for other skills. "Something went wrong
here?
Ah well, I do this instead."

- The Unshaven.

- The Unshaven.

[Jakob Pape]

Do you mean an ED? You set your Master Die after the roll (so you can't miss) but Expert Die before the roll, which seems to have the problem you describe - and that means an ED is only worthwhile if you can't an an extra normal die instead.

2009/10/31 Hotjets <Hot...@verizon.net>