Re: question on pg landings

[Steve Forslund]

On 7/26/2012 4:33 PM, Douglas W Jackson wrote:

Steve,

We have discussed landing through a gradient once, and I have been experiencing this more often than I would like without the results I prefer.

So, when I am coming in for a headwind landing, and at (whatever) altitude there is no wind or even sink, what is the action to take?

I recall that you mentioned to come in fast and keep the energy up, but how do you really control that?

 

When setting up a landing, I feel that I am not slowing the glider in any way, but at that 25-20-15 foot range this is where I experience the sudden drop of speed or lift.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

Doug

 

Douglas Jackson,  CLTC

Agent, Business and Personal Insurance and Retirement Planning

New York Life Insurance Company                

500 Liberty Street SE, Suite 500                    

Salem, OR 97301

Cell 541-981-9123

Fax 503-375-6302

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 Good question Doug I don't have much time for answering now but maybe others will chime in.
 I don't know, reach forward pretend I have a control bar and pull it in for speed? Seriously we are fortunate that our wings are so high and not subject to the more common and more severe gradient that hangs pass through when landing. Number one is to make sure you are at trim and not using too much brake when turning. Also with the ground coming up it is possible to get a bit of ground rush and start to slow the glider(don't!) as you seem to be speeding up as you drop into lighter wind(this is the biggest problem that I see way too often pilots coming in to land robbing the glider of airspeed, mush landings). I believe a proper downwind base final approach can minimize the need for turning low(more below on dbf). Steeper more aggressive turns can keep speed up but also have some increase in risk. Another advanced technique would be slow the glider and letting it surge and speed up THIS NEEDS TO BE DONE CORRECTLY! It can be very helpful with a short lz and when you are just boating around and can't seem to land, no fun hanging out in the danger zone!

From Dustin Martin posted on the AZHPA ;

" Checking for turbulence
ALWAYS overfly your touchdown spot and the area upwind right before you fly your pattern. This will save you some trouble or worse someday if you do it consistently. If you encounter lift, great, work it at least until it drifts by the LZ, then repeat. If you don't hit anything you can be confident in good LZ conditions. Nothing terrible is going to gather momentum in the short time it takes you to do a pattern. Never skip this step if it's still early enough to encounter lift. Make your pattern tight to ensure landing in the air that you just checked."

link to the entire article on flying xc  http://www.azhpa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=103:cross-country-flying-tips-by-dustin-martin&catid=46:pilot-stories

sf

[Peter Reagan]

Steve's post says it all. I'll condense it. On final, keep your hands all the way up until you flare (except if you have to very very briefly control a surge.)  The danger in this situation is not having enough forward speed in reserve, before you experience the gradient. So the most important part is not what you do when you experience the gradient; its what you did before.  I guess one other detail is in carefully evaluating the details of the geometry of the lz for where the wind shadow is going to be least.  When you do go through the gradient there is no avoiding the sink, but you will be able to control the landing with a good flare at the proper height. Steve's point about ground rush is also good.  You still have to wait to flare.  Finally there are wind speeds that are safe to fly in, but too strong for short, sheltered LZ's.  Take that into account when you launch.  The question of how to deal with a thermal in the LZ is really a different issue.  -Pete

On Jul 27, 2012, at 7:35 AM, Steve Forslund wrote:

On 7/26/2012 4:33 PM, Douglas W Jackson wrote:

Steve,

We have discussed landing through a gradient once, and I have been experiencing this more often than I would like without the results I prefer.

So, when I am coming in for a headwind landing, and at (whatever) altitude there is no wind or even sink, what is the action to take?

I recall that you mentioned to come in fast and keep the energy up, but how do you really control that?

 

When setting up a landing, I feel that I am not slowing the glider in any way, but at that 25-20-15 foot range this is where I experience the sudden drop of speed or lift.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

Doug

 

Douglas Jackson,  CLTC

Agent, Business and Personal Insurance and Retirement Planning

New York Life Insurance Company                

500 Liberty Street SE, Suite 500                    

Salem, OR 97301

Cell 541-981-9123

Fax 503-375-6302

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If you do not wish to receive email communications from New York Life please reply to this email, using the words "Opt Out" in the signature line.  Please copy email_...@newyorklife.com

 

New York Life Insurance, 51 Madison Ave, New York, NY 10010

 

[Discover Paragliding!]

One simple add to all this. Getting out of the harness. Have someone video you when you are on final and analyze how you get out of the harness. There can be a bit of 'swing set' action if you get out of your harness aggressively, causing the glider to surge. Combine this with increased drag as you go from sitting to vertical. It's a small effect, but can make a difference if done at the wrong elevation, especially if you are inadvertently dinking with the brakes while doing so. 

I really like the little tidbit about flying upwind of the LZ. Extra bonus is it get's you to the LZ with time to think! :-)

Brad

See you up there,

Brad and Maren
Your 'Couple' of Instructors
www.DiscoverParagliding.com
503-861-2772 (W) 503-440-0733 (c)

[Steve Forslund]

 Yeah I remember Santa talking about landing mid-day in the desert and saying when you are getting low you are entering the battle zone, this is a good way to change your mind set, do what ever it takes to keep the wing flying and be aware of the reserve as an option. Give up early enough to have options and pick your lz and when you land instead of being a passenger of fate.

Good reminder about getting out of the harness early, much better to have your legs under you.

SF

[Stuart Caruk]

I always cringe when I hear the "keep the reserve option " anytime your flight might bring you close to the terrain. I've seen some amazingly low tosses that somehow the pilot miraculously survived. In many case what saved them wasn't the reduced vertical velocity, but rather the reserve blossomed and they ended up getting drug as they were touching down (crashing…). This changed the impact to more of a sliding motion allowing the energy to dissipate over time, rather than have the pilot experience a sudden stop.

 

BUT… I've also seen pilots increase their vertical descent rate and pound into the lake several times, from last minute tosses after a maneuver had gone bad and they throw as the last second. As the reserve starts to open the paraglider if it's still open down planes and literally drags the pilot towards the surface before the reserve can fully open.

 

IF there is enough height, the reserve opens and things get stable. I personally believe there is a dead man's curve where I'm going to be better off flying my wing or what's left of it, that tossing my reserve.

 

But then as pilots, the reserve is yet another option in our bag of tricks. Have you ever tossed yours yet and seen what actually happens. It's certainly not for everyone, but I believe there is merit in intentional reserve tosses. My favorites by far are the ones that simply don't work. It's much better to find that out over the water, with rescue at hand.

 

Just a thought.

 

Stu

[Paul Murdoch]

Stu wrote:

 

“I personally believe there is a dead man's curve…”

 

And while I understand the sentiment, I flinched at what could be channeling Rick Masters.

 

I threw very low once out of necessity.  Of course my wing began flying again just as the reserve left my hand.  The reserve opening increased my vertical speed for a few moments as I swung backwards underneath it, then again as the main started downplaning.

 

Not that I’m advocating not throwing when low.  Rather that a successful reserve toss doesn’t mean you are out of the woods - particularly at low altitude.  Stu’s suggestion of practicing it in a safe environment is a good idea.

 

Paul

 

[skf...@effectnet.com]

I meant low as in 500'  and will remind myself where the reserve handle is what it is for when flying big air sites. Option was a bad phrase. Regardless of the outcomes at SIV's reserves seem to work incredibly well in the real world and I am sure there are more pilots that are glad they deployed and ones (or loved ones) that wished they had then ones thinking they should not have deployed.

SF

Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!

[Jon Malmberg]

Go learn to fly a speed wing!  You won't ever have issues or complain about fast landings with your paraglider ever again... 

 

Let it go (fast and hands up) and don't start your flare until way lower than most currently do.  Also, run Forrest, run...  It is amazing to me to see how many lock the knees/ankles, and just hope for the best.  This goes along with Brad's comments.  Hard to run with your ass firmly planted in you harness.

 

Jon

[Stuart Caruk]

500' isn't low for a reserve toss IMHO, nor is 150'. I tossed mine at less than 300' and it worked remarkably well. Of course I was still on tow, and some day I'll have to try that again to see if a person can climb out on tow under a reserve.

 

How about something different… let's say you take a big 50% asymmetric collapse at 70 feet on approach. Do you throw, or fly what's left?

 

Or how about you took a big whack at 100' and managed it well, unfortunately it reinflated with a big cravatte which is inducing a turn. You can control the turn with wieghtshift and brake but you still have a 40% collapse. Do you fly what's left, or go for the reserve, letting the glider wind up as you reach for the handle?

 

I don't think the equation is as simple as if you're below this altitude huck…

 

 

 

From: cp...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cp...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of skf...@effectnet.com
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 11:10 AM
To: Stuart Caruk; cp...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: CPC: Re: question on pg landings

 

I meant low as in 500'  and will remind myself where the reserve handle is what it is for when flying big air sites. Option was a bad phrase. Regardless of the outcomes at SIV's reserves seem to work incredibly well in the real world and I am sure there are more pilots that are glad they deployed and ones (or loved ones) that wished they had then ones thinking they should not have deployed.

 

[skf...@effectnet.com]

Never said it was simple and didnt mean to imply a huck height. More of a hyper vigilant zone.

SF

Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!

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From: "Stuart Caruk" <stuc...@msn.com>