Kutch report

[Mark Sanzone]

It was good!  Dave B, Alan and I flew.  I was up almost two hours getting 1950' over launch and had to work to land as the Flying M LZ was really going off. 

Mark

[Alan]

It was good, but I had not so much success as Mark and Dave. Thirty
minutes on launch waiting for a strong and straight enough cycle was
followed by a ten minute flight ending in the most turbulent LZ I've
ever visited. I was just happy to have been set down between the
stumps. But, Mark offered to drive so I could have a second flight
that was nice buoyant scratching over the firs, just up above launch,
followed by a more sensible landing on the road. A good day overall.
Alan

[Ancil Nance]

This kind of Kutch flight report reminds me of times when it went just a little bit wrong and the day did not end well. Of all our sites this is the most unpredictable and the most likely to cause grief to those who continue to press their luck here.

Was it skill that put you between the stumps or luck?

I have flown Kutch and and seen days where pilots are going up and down like yo-yos, not in control.

I can truly wonder, who is next.

The good flights should not blind us to the other kind.

Sorry. Just had to say it, so flame on.

[Cloudsurf Paragliding]

O-kaaaay...
Now for something positive:
Cliffside was great today. The combination of straight E wind, strong but not too, and sun on the N ridge meant for dreamy flying all day long.
It was 1/2 to full bar in a straight line (no turning necessary) heading out east at windmill height for 12 km then back to hwy 97 and north from there to Goldendale for me. About 5 others had long boaty flights and some XC down the tall ridge as well.
Alan, thanks for your flight report. I took your input as a clear reminder of how tricky Kutch can be.

[Alan]

What set me down between the stumps was an assessment of the weather
conditions that helped me to anticipate the turbulence, choice of an
appropriate wing for my experience, currency in thermal conditions,
physical fitness, and continuous decision making during the approach,
and yes, a little luck. It was very challenging and it was also fun
and I would do the flight again.

Here's your flame, Ancil: before you post from now on you should ask
yourself the questions: "does this post contribute anything positive,
helpful, or entertaining?" If not, then you should probably just keep
it to yourself.



Sep 7, 9:46 pm, Cloudsurf Paragliding <m...@cloudsurfparagliding.com>
wrote:

[Travis Forsman]

Its a good thing paragliding doesn't require perfect conditions otherwise I'd never fly. 

Sometimes the wind is too light or too strong. Sometimes its crossed to some degree.   Sometimes I drink too much coffee and have to urinate. Sometimes I get hungry. Sometimes I eat Mexican the night before and get gassy. Sometimes it's hot out and I get too sweaty for comfort, sometimes my hands get cold. Sometimes thermals are bumpy. Sometimes my LZ options change. Sometimes I have no idea which open area might become my next LZ..... The good thing is I really enjoy paragliding and I'm able to deal with the rest well enough to actually get my feet off the ground. 

Fly with a bit fear of the unknown or just post your fears from your computer chair. The choice is your own.

Good flying Alan! Thanks for the flight report!

[skf...@effectnet.com]

So the answer would be skill and a little luck?
Easy enough question to answer. But evidently also interesting enough to get your panties in a bunch.

Years ago we had a lot of places to land(on the hill side) and more launches at Kutch and it was reasonable to topland. I do not like the clearcut lz and usually will give of up early enough to go to the flying M.

Flew a new site Thursday afternoon and the launch in light conditions made the worse launches we have at home look like paradise. Steep loose rock lots of boulders and rocks in front where it was shallow. Not many clear spots around here for launching and I joked with locals that they have testicles like grapefruits or brains like walnuts or both. We were about 45 minutes late and I will probably wait for better conditions before launching here again. Work and thunderstorms this weekend.

SF

Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!

[skf...@effectnet.com]

Fly with a bit fear of the unknown or just post your fears from your computer chair.

Question pilots landing in stump farms or just accept every launch and landing that doesn't result in an injury was a smart decision. The choice is your own.

Personally I think as a group we tend to gloss over incidents more than we discuss them so someone pointing out potential problems  does not bother me. Hell Larry used to call me out for launching Kiwanda without out a harness, it is nice to know people care.  I figure if I land in a stump farm I screwed up somewhere unless it was the plan.

SF

Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!

----- Reply message -----
From: "Travis Forsman" <pilo...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Sep 8, 2012 1:59 am
Subject: CPC: Re: Kutch report

To: "alfle...@gmail.com" <alfle...@gmail.com>
Cc: "Cascade Paragliding Club" <cp...@googlegroups.com>

Its a good thing paragliding doesn't require perfect conditions otherwise I'd never fly. 

Sometimes the wind is too light or too strong. Sometimes its crossed to some degree.   Sometimes I drink too much coffee and have to urinate. Sometimes I get hungry. Sometimes I eat Mexican the night before and get gassy. Sometimes it's hot out and I get too sweaty for comfort, sometimes my hands get cold. Sometimes thermals are bumpy. Sometimes my LZ options change. Sometimes I have no idea which open area might become my next LZ..... The good thing is I really enjoy paragliding and I'm able to deal with the rest well enough to actually get my feet off the ground. 

Fly with a bit fear of the unknown or just post your fears from your computer chair. The choice is your own.

Good flying Alan! Thanks for the flight report!

On Friday, September 7, 2012, Alan wrote:

[Alan]

Good points Steve. It is good to question and discuss these "less-than-
ideal" flights, and incidents (far too many of them are swept under
the rug, but that's a couple whole other threads, you guys know who
you are...). And yes, the answer is skill and a little luck.

You're also right, the flight was interesting enough to get my panties
in a bunch. But landing in a stump farm actually is part of the plan
when flying at Kutch. If you don't get up, you land at the clearcut.
If you don't hit your spot on the road, you land in the stumps. The
stumps are the last bailout. I've seen it happen many times at Kutch,
and I haven't been flying there anywhere near as long as you or Ancil.
Yep, I know, just because it's happened many times doesn't make it
safe. I guess the right decision could be to not fly if you don't have
the skill to make it to the M on a particular day, or not fly if you
don't have the skill to land on your spot on the road in turbulent
conditions, and I overestimated my skill to accomplish both of those
things which is why I launched. I don't think that it was a bad
decision to launch, however, because I had enough 'skill' left over to
land successfully in the stumps. I hate the word skill because it
always makes me picture a superhero jumping over a car. The
connotation of skill doesn't emphasize the planning, equipment
choices, practice, and mental state that goes into it. My RCR scores
were really high yesterday! http://www.ushpa.aero/article.asp?id=20
(Except maybe number 12,confidence.) Getting myself into a situation
where I had to use the last bail out made my margins much thinner and
I recognize that, which is why I shared. Luck just brought me to a
relatively nice grassy patch where I could bring my wing down clean
and not get it tangled in the trees or snags.

I felt compelled to respond to Ancil because I'm afraid his posts
simply crush these kinds of discussions and discourage others from
sharing. It's just the tone of his writing that makes it easy to brush
off as paranoid fear. Specifically word choices like "cause grief to
those who continue to press their luck here" are not helpful and will
make people stop listening. I know that he means well and has a very
valid point that good flights should not blind us to the bad. But
Kutch is not the devil - EVERYWHERE we pull out our paragliders is
potentially dangerous. And it's a lot easier to take these kinds of
comments from someone who has flown with you and knows you.

Alan


On Sep 8, 1:45 am, "skf...@effectnet.com" <skf...@effectnet.com>
wrote:

> >  Sep 7, 9:46 pm, Cloudsurf Paragliding <m...@cloudsurfparagliding.com<javascript:;>

>
> > wrote:
> > > O-kaaaay...
> > > Now for something positive:
> > > Cliffside was great today. The combination of straight E wind, strong but
> > > not too, and sun on the N ridge meant for dreamy flying all day long.
> > > It was 1/2 to full bar in a straight line (no turning necessary) heading
> > > out east at windmill height for 12 km then back to hwy 97 and north from
> > > there to Goldendale for me. About 5 others had long boaty flights and
> > some
> > > XC down the tall ridge as well.
> > > Alan, thanks for your flight report. I took your input as a clear
> > reminder
> > > of how tricky Kutch can be.

> > >  On Sep 7, 2012 9:28 PM, "Ancil Nance" <an...@ancilnance.com<javascript:;>>

> > wrote:
>
> > > > This kind of Kutch flight report reminds me of times when it went just
> > a
> > > > little bit wrong and the day did not end well. Of all our sites this
> > is the
> > > > most unpredictable and the most likely to cause grief to those who
> > continue
> > > > to press their luck here.
>
> > > > Was it skill that put you between the stumps or luck?
>
> > > > I have flown Kutch and and seen days where pilots are going up and down
> > > > like yo-yos, not in control.
>
> > > > I can truly wonder, who is next.
>
> > > > The good flights should not blind us to the other kind.
>
> > > > Sorry. Just had to say it, so flame on.
>
> > > > On Sep 7, 2012, at 9:05 PM, Alan wrote:
>
> > > > > It was good, but I had not so much success as Mark and Dave. Thirty
> > > > > minutes on launch waiting for a strong and straight enough cycle was
> > > > > followed by a ten minute flight ending in the most turbulent LZ I've
> > > > > ever visited. I was just happy to have been set down between the
> > > > > stumps. But, Mark offered to drive so I could have a second flight
> > > > > that was nice buoyant scratching over the firs, just up above launch,
> > > > > followed by a more sensible landing on the road. A good day overall.
> > > > > Alan
>

> > > > > On Sep 7, 8:18 pm, Mark Sanzone <msanz...@yahoo.com <javascript:;>>

[Ancil Nance]

Not my words.

I just reported what I have seen.

[Ancil Nance]

I am very sorry that you project that on to my comments. It is not my intention to crush discussions. In fact just the opposite.

On Sep 8, 2012, at 8:52 AM, Alan wrote:

[skf...@effectnet.com]

thanks for the post Alan.

I think I may set up further west  then some when I have landed on the lower road in the clear cut. The upper dead end road does not appeal to me. Before the bottom was clear cut there were trees at the base and that road went into the forest and stopped. It was a very committed aproach if you landed there, now it seems exposed to more turbulence then the lower road.

I can't wait to fly Angora and you young whipped snappers  need to stop thinking of my adventurous hippie friend( bit of a dark swede in there too?) as a curmudgeon typing away and go fly some new sites with him.

I felt compelled to respond to Ancil because I'm afraid his posts
simply crush these kinds of discussions and discourage others from

sharing. It's just the tone of his writing that makes it easy to brush

off as paranoid fear. Specifically word choices like "cause grief to

> change. Sometimes I have no idea which open area might become my next LZ......

> > > > most unpredictable and the most likely to cause grief to those who
> > continue

[dave_blizzard]

As one of those flying yesterday, I feel compelled to say that I agree with Alan because I did, in fact, just dismiss your remarks.  What should I do with "I can truly wonder, who is next."  Do you want me to think this thought on launch or when do you feel it will be helpful.  So I take Jim B's June meeting remarks to heart: "It is unwise to trust another person's assessment of risk."  What I do think is usually helpful, for what its worth, is detailed personal observations of conditions which have lead to specific problems.  I know that you are trying to help us communicate.  Thank you.  I hope you see me tying to do the same.

[Steve Roti]

Safety is a hard topic for paraglider pilots to talk about. I say that after a decade overseeing paragliding accident review for the national association. The good news is CPC members care enough about each other and our flying community here in Oregon to make the effort to discuss safety issues. The bad news is everybody has different ways of saying things and sometimes we see or hear well-intentioned comments that strike us the wrong way. I've known Ancil for 20 years now and I'm confident when he posts about safety he's doing so in an effort to be helpful so I take it the way it was intended. 

Dave Blizzard's mention of "detailed personal observations of conditions which have lead to specific problems" is exactly the type of information we want to include in the site guide so if anyone wants to add their personal observations to the Kutch site guide just let Ancil or me know and we'll update the page.

http://www.cascadeparaglidingclub.org/pages/kutch.php 

Steve

[Tom]

I guess I will throw my twisted panties into this, too.

I will agree with Alan that it isn't so much what Ancil was commenting on as it was the acerbic sarcasm that does indeed shut down discussion.Some folks do it in person, Ancil does it with the written word on public forums. We are all stunted in our social graces, especially with communication.

There are some marginal things we do that are worthy of discussion - although to me the stump field isn't that big a thing because I am very comfortable with killing my wing a few feet off the ground and descending nearly vertical.

I practice it, despite the grief I take occasionally from those who note I am not using the "runway" and building lots of speed the way they would.  If they would ask, I would tell them it is because it is a handy skill to have - and works well when landing with a paramotor, too.

My 2 cents. Now my panties are untwisted. Time to fly some more.

[Steve Forslund]

On 9/8/2012 10:21 PM, Tom wrote:
> although to me the stump field isn't that big a thing because I am
> very comfortable with killing my wing a few feet off the ground
> and descending nearly vertical.

All good until you get a gust or don't read the wind right and have a
bit too much ground speed or get popped up last second and now have no
energy in the wing. Like Ancil I have seen who wins when stumps and
pilot square off. Our wings are so easy to launch fly and land that we
can get complacent and lazy leaving little margin for error. Wrapping a
wing around a tree, landing in water, rough landings or sketchy launches
are all signs of less then stellar piloting and worthy of discussion.
Being an injury free pilot like Mark Sanzone does not just happen,
you need to make good decisions, leave yourself an out and fly with
reasonable safety margins. Having some good karma and luck doesn't hurt.
I did bruise my heels once and went to the doctors (no treatment) and
ruined my injury free status about 18 years into the sport and was
really upset as I knew it was not good conditions for playing low that
day. I want to continue to fly paragliders and hangs for the rest of my
life which I would prefer to be long and it is a constant struggle to
temper the urge to fly with the desire to fly safe(or at least land
safely). Let's try and prove Ancil wrong, we don't need to push it until
accident and or injury, we can do better collectively then we have over
the years. Don't be afraid to speak up to individual flying friends if
you see a pattern and think they are heading for a fall and try and take
it well if someone is concerned about your decision and flying.

Steve (off to look at flying some marginal conditions)Forslund

[Tom]

Agreed, good points all.

 

In the end, I think we all just want to fly, be safe, and have fun.

 

Discussing it when things don't go perfectly well is an important part of that, I would rather learn from somebody else's mistake if possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tom]