Re: CPC: Re: Oregon pilot map--your comments?
bethany brown
If you aren't saying "ewwwww" or "what the...?" and feeling somewhat repulsed or angry at the idea, then you are too far gone for this message.
The message is regarding objectification of women. I've stayed silent when it's been done in the past on CPC mail/postings, but no longer. This is not a gentleman's club. It's not the Blush or Acropolis in Portland. It's not even the Anchor Inn at Oceanside. This is a public forum with both genders.
When you say things about a gender that you wouldn't want to be said about someone you know and care about, it's objectification. (making an object of a person) If you tend to objectify the women you care about, I'm sorry for them.
From this point forward, I will be pointing out this type of message in a public manner since the message was given in a public manner. You can make fun of me, you can say all types of things to criticize or defend or excuse this kind of thinking (objectification of women) because it's a free speech kind of country, but I'll continue to uphold what I believe to be a standard of decent communication among our club.
If you finished reading this, thanks. If you have a different opinion about it, go for it.
Bethany
From: Mark G. Forbes <mgfo...@mindspring.com>
To: dd dd <thermals...@yahoo.com>; RVHPA <RV...@yahoogroups.com>; RVHGA list <rv...@yahoogroups.com>; CPC <cp...@googlegroups.com>; OHGA list <mem...@ohga.org>
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 11:14:47 PM
Subject: CPC: Re: Oregon pilot map--your comments?
[dd says...]
>> http://tinyurl.com/yr7mwm
>where am i ? i don't see me on the map ! 170th aloha
Like I said, I anonymized it to zip code centers. That gets it close
enough to look up a list of local pilots on the USHPA website, and
then use the PilotConnected feature to contact them. We're going to
update it so that if you don't have it turned on already, and have
not explicitly turned it off, there's a link that will send you a
message that tells you that somebody would like to reach you, and
you need to go turn on that feature if you want to be accessible.
That improvement isn't done yet, so you need to go turn it on
manually right now.
The idea of PilotConnected is to have a way to contact another
pilot without exposing their private email and contact information
to the public. It's like eBay's contact-a-member feature, where you
send a form to a seller (for example) and they can respond back to
you with whatever level of information they want to provide. Our
privacy policy prohibits passing out personal information from the
database, so we can't just give somebody contact info if they ask.
The problem is that if you don't know where East Whoozitsville is,
it's hard to tell if that's near the place where you want to ask
about. This way at least you can tell where pilots exist, and see
if there's anybody in the neighborhood. With the city info, you
then have enough to look them up in the member list on the USHPA
website, and drop them a message.
When I look at the map near 170th, I see a listing for Aloha, zip 97006.
Looking up Aloha, OR on the USHPA website, I find two pilots. Neither
of them are you though, because you're actually in Beaverton. :-) When
I look up Beaverton pilots instead, there you are. So then, if you
had PilotConnected turned on (which you don't) and your email address
was correct in your record (which it might be, but it's not exactly
the same as the one you're using now) then I'd hit the link, send a
message, and you'd get email from me.
"Hi! I'm a curvaceous 24-year-old redhead looking for a pilot I
could drive for. I prefer to drive in the nude if it won't bother
you, and I also looove to buy beer and pizza after driving all day
on cross country retrieves. I work nights as a topless dancer so
I'm free during the day. If you're interested send me a reply."
(Ok, that's probably in the *really unlikely* category.....)
MGF
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
Mark G. Forbes
> Imagine the "curvaceous 24-year-old redhead" is your wife, or your
> (someday) mom, or your sister, or daughter, or (back in her day)
> Grandma... How does it sound to you now?
> If you finished reading this, thanks. If you have a different opinion
> about it, go for it.
Sorry Bethany.....y'see, the mental image *I* had was a 400-pounder from
"Dwayne's All-Sumo, All-Drag Revue" down the street. :-)
I don't recall mentioning gender *or* species.
MGF
Patrick Johansen
Patrick Johansen
From: cp...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cp...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of bethany brown
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 12:34 PM
To: mgfo...@mindspring.com; dd dd; RVHPA; RVHGA list; CPC; OHGA list
G-$
meeting........
but seriously we know his intentions are pure, and i am sure he
wouldnt omit any pin on that map due to boy or girl parts. i wish i
could say that our club wasnt a gentlemans club but it actually kinda
is. by no fault of the men either, its just that piloting in general,
is a dude thing. i hope i can speak for the men here that all of us
would like to see more women in the sport, and thanks to the beauty of
paragliding thats possible. we werent brought here by riches or
family history or religion. anyone who can walk with a backpack and
rub a few thousand bucks together can free fly like a bird, but as you
see in the air and on launch the women are few. we love the few we
have and those who drive as much as than fly of course have a special
and unequal place in our hearts, for because of them we fly more and
walk less. so to me its more of an appreciation than
objectification. i mean, in a perfect world ALL uf us could drive to
launch naked. so we are not perfect, and well, in fact we are
pilots. please know we cant help it and it wasnt our choice, we just
appreciate women, not just redheads either.
also id like to point out that the internet causes otherwise normally
adjusted people to stick their feet in where their lips should be
touching, i will keep mark company on that one!
lucky for us when we are flying we are all just birds. (birds have
sex while flying)
> From: Mark G. Forbes <mgfor...@mindspring.com>
> To: dd dd <thermalsurfin...@yahoo.com>; RVHPA <RV...@yahoogroups.com>; RVHGA
> <memb...@ohga.org>
> ategory.php?category=shopping> them fast with Yahoo! Search.
petebarry
the "redhead" etc....Not to berate him...but to remind myself and
maybe you all.....that we grew up in a very sexist society and it all
too common that we reflect that to other men, and even more
unfortunately to the women around us. I totally respect Bethany for
speaking up. Women who speak up are typically labeled as nutty
feminists, overly sensitive, etc....men who speak up are considered
smart or dominant...... Patrick comments sounds like an "old-
school" typical male who has no clue what sexism is.....apparently
has never been treated like a sex object...been worried about being
raped, or just been treated like he was stupid, or inept....the
comments also miss the point.
Many women might also enjoy an attractive driver and pizza sugar-
daddy...but the "nude" part of Mark's daydream and especially the
"topless dancing" aspect simply demeans women. And no Patrick...if
you were paying attention.....women are significantly different than
men...they think various types of guys are sexy...but it is not their
dominant preoccupation in life. 99.9% of us men would never even
consider stripping for money, and would hate to see out daughters
having so few options they might end up part of such a esteem damaging
and risky "job." Spending our money or attention in any way toward
the sex industry supports a dangerous and unhealthy exploitation.
I so enjoy having the few wonderful women that are willing to hang out
with us in our "spectator-boring" sport, support us, drive for us...or
just tolerate and even sometimes celebrate out joys of chasing our
flying dreams---and the ones that fly with us. I'm all for stepping
up and giving "advice" or admonition in our sport when we see people
taking unnecessary risks or threatening our safety or sites....but
watch yourself and other men...we are much more prone to give women
"free advice" and tell them what to do....much more than we do men.
Lets all treat women and men as equally as we can. Thanks for
considering my view-point. Peter Barry (Eastern Oregon)
John Saltveit
am bringing women into the sport. You'll have to ask to see her birth
certificate for verification. She is a feminist though, so be careful
what you might be thinking, she might arrest you. She arrests me
sometimes. It's kind of awkward at school. The kids don't understand,
but I think they like it! Will someone please bail me out?
John S
On Mar 22, 11:33 am, bethany brown <bethanyj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Imagine the "curvaceous 24-year-old redhead" is your wife, or your (someday) mom, or your sister, or daughter, or (back in her day) Grandma... How does it sound to you now?
>
> If you aren't saying "ewwwww" or "what the...?" and feeling somewhat repulsed or angry at the idea, then you are too far gone for this message.
>
> The message is regarding objectification of women. I've stayed silent when it's been done in the past on CPC mail/postings, but no longer. This is not a gentleman's club. It's not the Blush or Acropolis in Portland. It's not even the Anchor Inn at Oceanside. This is a public forum with both genders.
>
> When you say things about a gender that you wouldn't want to be said about someone you know and care about, it's objectification. (making an object of a person) If you tend to objectify the women you care about, I'm sorry for them.
>
> From this point forward, I will be pointing out this type of message in a public manner since the message was given in a public manner. You can make fun of me, you can say all types of things to criticize or defend or excuse this kind of thinking (objectification of women) because it's a free speech kind of country, but I'll continue to uphold what I believe to be a standard of decent communication among our club.
>
> If you finished reading this, thanks. If you have a different opinion about it, go for it.
>
> Bethany
>
> ----- Original Message ----
Patrick Johansen
Still in the sense of an interesting debate I hope.....
I think everyone should speak up about their opinions. Just to clarify, I
did not label Bethany as "a nutty feminist, overly sensitive, or an etc." I
think she is wonderful. She is very friendly and kind and nice. She seems
very intelligent. I hope it is ok to say that I have also noted that she
has a beautiful face, especially her profile. Just some of my observations.
But, on some things, we might disagree. Although we might agree after
discussing them...or not. It's ok if we disagree, she still has all the
characteristics mentioned above.
I just wanted to make sure you recognize that I didn't label her. However
you did label me. Interesting. It's ok, I don't get my feelers hurt
easily. But you sure categorized me very quickly with out really knowing
very much about me. Something to think about for your own personal growth.
"And no Patrick...if you were paying attention.....women are significantly
different than men". Hmmmm, if you were paying attention, I think it was I
that said that. I said," I also observe that women are different than men,
and are treated differently than men." Hmmmm, paying attention?
I think probably through our lives, we have all felt in danger, all been
humiliated, all been made to feel stupid or inept. I cant imagine that
anyone makes it all the way through life without feeling those things as
some point. I cant imagine that you really believe that no men have ever
felt these things.
Mark has pointed out that his Cartoon Character was not defined as male or
female. Stop for a second and realize the prejudice that you bring to his
words. There are many male topless dancers, male strippers and male
prostitutes. You seem to assume that only women participate in these
careers. By definition, is your attitude not sexist?? OK, come on Pete,
you have to admit, I got you on that one. I have to get some debate points
for that.
I suppose you could claim that Mark's comment demeans society as a whole.
But on the other hand, should we make believe that these careers don't
exist. Are you saying that people who have these positions demean society.
Isn't this tremendously judgmental on your part? Are people who write
trashy novels Ok in your book? How about sperm or egg donors. How about
people who have abortions? How about garbage men. Do people grow up
thinking their goal in life is to be a garbage man or a sewer cleaner, or do
they take these jobs because they are desperate and/or need or want the
money? Is this demeaning also? So if we mention the existence, are we
demeaning society?
I wouldn't want my mother to be a sewer cleaner.....eeeewwwwww! My point
in these last few paragraphs is just to point out that your philosophy might
just be a bit hypocritical.
How do you think a women who has chosen to be a topless dancer would feel if
she read what you have written. Would she feel demeaned? Are you
anti-feminist? Shouldn't a woman be able to CHOOSE what she wants to do
with her own body? Who are you to judge her?
I have been treated like a sex object, by an older woman, when I was
younger, in better shape, before I wore burlap, could jump off tables and
when I wasn't this ugly. By a woman about 10 years older than me. I
realize that not everyone would like that type of attention. Some men and
women do. In that scenario, I was quite flattered.
As long as we are discussing this, there is something else I feel should be
mentioned. A few weeks ago, Dave had made an equal opportunity statement at
the meeting. He pointed out during the nominations for president of the
club, that we should remember to consider all options, both men and women
for the position. He was publicly chastised as some told him that just the
fact that he mentioned it was demeaning to women. I didn't say anything at
the time because I thought that I had missed something, but I checked with
others later, and they confirmed, that in fact was what happened. Similar
Equal Opportunity statements are on most of the job applications I have ever
filled out, and are posted in most businesses. Does this seem right to you?
Patrick Johansen
-----Original Message-----
From: cp...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cp...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
petebarry
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 9:40 PM
To: Cascade Paragliding Club
Subject: CPC: Re: Oregon pilot map--your comments?
brad ross
maybe you both just need more time in the air so stop the w/ the petty
BS and go fly or something!
brad ross
paragliding forum right? do your cryin someplace private..
i think u both need more time in the air..so why not use the weather
site and get out and move on!GO FLY!!
On Mar 26, 12:25 am, "Patrick Johansen" <Patr...@PK80.com> wrote:
Jim Donaldson
>you two need to get over it already! what the f#@k! this is a
>paragliding forum right? do your cryin someplace private..
>i think u both need more time in the air..so why not use the weather
>site and get out and move on!GO FLY!!
<snip>
note the [OT] which is appropriate for this and your post.
don't be a breedbate; demeaning a demeaning comment isn't allowed here.
-- jim
john balwit
reading a debate over how the paragliding community deals with complicated
social issues--how we talk to each other and how we can all get along
better. I rather like seeing these debates played out.
It hadn't occurred to me that this would make some people feel so
uncomfortable. Obviously Mark's pilot locator program is intended to make it
easier for pilots to find each other and communicate. This is good for
flying and the paragliding community. Likewise, Bethany's comments are
intended to help us all understand the effect that certain kinds of humor
has on excluding certain members of the community from the general
discussion--again relevant to building a better paragliding community.
Are there others who feel this is Off Topic for the forum? Are there others
who feel that thinking about the social dimension of this sport is not only
valuable but also interesting?
John Balwit
-----Original Message-----
From: cp...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cp...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Donaldson
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 9:56 AM
To: Cascade Paragliding Club
Patrick Johansen
Well, it is on topic. We are discussing paragliding meetings and the
paragliding e-group.
Patrick Johansen
Patrick Johansen
Patrick Johansen
-----Original Message-----
From: cp...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cp...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of brad
ross
G-$
comments like this arent constructive at all.
charlie phillips
Charlie
> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:00:00 -0700
> Subject: CPC: Re: Demeaning comments?????
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