Re: CPC: Flight report, Bingen

[skf...@effectnet.com]

Amazing job of the rescuers of keeping the pilot alive! How windy was it? Where were the windlines on the river? Where were windsurfers and kite boarders playing?

Twenty plus years of flying this site pilots have shown you can use good judgement and stay out of trouble flying Bingen. Gliders have a bigger speed range now but it appears pilots are choosing to fly and land in stronger conditions instead of having an increased margin of safety.
150 yards is a long way off shore  which makes me wonder what type of approach the pilot was flying?

While it is very altruistic to bring life jackets a better reaction by the flying community would be to fly reasonable approach patterns and appropriate conditions.

SF

Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!

----- Reply message -----
From: "Larry Haffner" <lgha...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2012 11:04 pm
Subject: CPC: Flight report, Bingen
To: <cp...@googlegroups.com>

Flying at Bingen today had its normal challenges with light wind at the top and increasing wind on the river. I almost had to back in flying two hours before this incident.  At the end of the day things took an unexpected turn for the worse when a guest pilot went into the the river 150 yards out. Jim Arnold, his friend and an accomplished Kite boarder and surf border swam out with no flotation gear to assist. I arrived when Jim was about 100 yards from shore and discovered a park guest had alread called 911. I also called and immediately raced to the boat basin to see if there was any active boats. There was none. I raced to town while talking to the 911 operator and was informed that the rescue boat had to come from the Hood River boat basin. This really caused me alarm and I raced into town to find anyone with a boat parked out front. there were none. By now it had been twenty minutes since I saw Jim in the water. I raced back and prayed that both would still be afloat. When I arrived it had been nearly 30 minutes since they entered the water and the canopy was completely out of sight but Jim and his friend were still treading water. A large pleasure boat actually picked them up within a few minutes and the Sherif was still not there. They did arrive after the rescue. This was a VERY close call for both of them and an answer to prayer. I saw them when they got off the boat and the flyer was obviously in shock. Jim looked worse than I had ever seen him. I really think he was the hero in this situation.

Now for my personal comment. As a club we MUST seriously consider having a boat posted while flying bingen on anything over a 10 MPH gustiy day. I suggested this to senior club members over a year ago and no one seemed to take me seriously. This year alone there has been three in the water, one in the trees and at least three nearly in the water. Do we have to watch someone drown to finally do something? I,. for one, will keep two life vests in my car from now on when flying Bingen. One for me and one for whoever needs the assist. If we would all start doing this hopefully we will not have a fatality at this site.

 

Larry Haffner

503 695 5644 

[dave_blizzard]

I think it is important to all of us that our sport remain largely self regulated.  Unfortunately, this requires us to maintain a certain level of discipline.  As a CPC pilot, I want this discipline generated by our synergistic attitudes and not externally imposed as a set of rules with consequences.  I also know that like a horse and water, you can lead a pilot to wonder but you can't make him think.  As CPC VP, I like the idea of rules with consequences.  Good conversation for the next club meeting. 

[Erik O]

I, for one, do not like the idea of rules with consequences.  The consequence of flying in conditions that are beyond the scope of your ability and equipment are self evident; you are taking your own life into your hands.  We can not regulate away stupidity.  (although the government tries to and they just F&*$ things up.)  We, as a club do not need to be like the government and make stupid rules and consequences for being dumb.  There are two consequences for that: 1.) you die, get hurt, or get lucky. and 2.) you get smarter and don't do it next time. 

So many pilots have brought up great ideas surrounding this discussion, but the most pertinent is to refer to the site guide.  It clearly states 10mph is a max and you must maintain vigilance in observing the water. This is not just a good idea here.  This last Saturday after we got all the competitors off Chelan Butte, we were getting ready to fly.  The only launch working was Lakeside and we sat and looked at the water.  10 miles away we saw light wind on the water.  We watched, within 20 minutes, it went from light and variable on launch to 25 gusting to 30.  ( I know what 25 is, I kite board)  This lead to the task being called for the pilots on course and all pilots got down before it hit them.  

Finally, we should not take the example of people who show up with special gear or have special talent to fly in windier conditions.  There are several pilots who have developed the skills and have gear suited to flying beyond the scope of the recommendation in the site guide.  If you want to make rules, you take away peoples free will to decide for themselves whether they should fly or not.  NO THANKS, the government is already taking enough of my free will away, don't let it happen here.  

Just my 2cents!

Erik

[Steve Forslund]

 Ahh but what consequences? Maybe he was talking about the cushy chair, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

 Serious each pilots is in charge of his life and health as should be and we don't fly to the lowest common denominator of course many forget and think we are all the same and if it is good for someone else it most be good for them.
 These days learning and getting in deep seems very accelerated to me. I followed hang gliding for years and was willing to take a slow approach to learning and conditions for paragliding. Even with many pilots in the air I would wait and study the weather for a while, of course usually I was flying alone. I will make the jump low and fly low out to the end of CLO some days but this is based on years of flying and observations. Remember to be the pilot and evaluate conditions for yourself and try and not let others action be the primary decision maker as you don't know what they are thinking, skills etc..

SF

[Steve Roti]

Erik O wrote, "We, as a club do not need to be like the government and make stupid rules and consequences for being dumb."

And of course we can't make rules with consequences at our flying sites because we don't have any legal authority to do so. Only landowners have the authority to make rules. Our club, through the site guide, makes suggestions and recommendations about behavior at our flying sites, but it's still up to individual pilots to make wise choices.

Steve

[dave_blizzard]

Actually, I was thinking about recent USHPA insurance conversations with Mark F. when I referenced "rules and consequences".

[Dan Wells]

Something we may want to add to all our site guides is a statement that STRONGLY advises visiting  pilots not to fly the site without getting a briefing on the site from a local pilot.  Some BOLD type with a warning that pilots who have failed to heed the wind warnings have ended up in the water.  The site guide also needs to be updated on the trail to the south launch and where to park since the house was built up there.

 

I always read the site guides before visiting a new site and then talk to one of the pilots on launch before flying there.  I think most of us do.

 

I don’t know the specifics of this latest event.  Could be just poor judgment and piloting  skill on the part of the pilot and none of what I just recommended could help obviate that.

 

Dan

Dan Wells

503 804-1077

danb...@comcast.net

[Steve Roti]

While USHPA has the ability to reduce or revoke ratings, that's not the same as making rules and consequences at flying sites. Just like the CPC, our national association doesn't have any legal authority to make and enforce site rules.

Steve

[Steve Roti]

Dan,

Here's what our online site guide currently says (text by John Halle): "The descriptions in this site guide of flying conditions to be expected reflect the experience of the authors of the guide. The conditions that you encounter at the site may differ from those encountered by the authors. The descriptions of their experiences may not be relevant to the likely experience of any other pilot, particularly one who is relatively inexperienced or new to the site. A decision to launch is always that of the individual pilot. In reaching a decision a pilot may wish to take into account the descriptions in this site guide but must also consider numerous other factors including the pilot's training and experience, familiarity with the site, equipment, physical and mental condition and the specific conditions in existence at the time of the decision. Pilots of relatively little experience or who are new to the site are urged to consult with other pilots at the site to obtain their assessment of the conditions."

So visiting pilots are already being advised to talk to a local pilot before flying. Most pilots are like you and will seek a site intro before flying a new site, but some won't and I don't think the wording in the site guide will change that.

If you're interested in helping to update the Bingen site guide page, contact Ancil and I privately and we'll work with you on it.

Steve

[Dan Wells]

Steve,

I don’t see this text on the Bingen page  When I navigate using the “Site Guide”  and then “Bingen links”.  Where is it?

[Alan]

Now, looking again, I see the paragraph that Steve just posted is
right at the top of the list of sites. My eye, like Dan's I presume,
was drawn immediately to the bright blue and red site names so I had
never noticed that text before.

Should we make this paragraph a separate page that all new users would
have to click through from either the Site Guide links or before
accessing the Site map, sort of like accepting the disclaimer before
every time you post a Craigslist ad?

(If the extra click becomes too annoying, you can create your own
bookmark directly to the site list.)

Alan

On Jul 17, 5:48 pm, "Dan Wells" <danbwe...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Steve,
>
> I don’t see this text on the Bingen page  When I navigate using the “Site Guide”  and then “Bingen links”.  Where is it?
>
> Dan
>
> Dan Wells
>
> 503 804-1077
>

> danbwe...@comcast.net

>
> From: cp...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cp...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Roti
> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:17 PM
> To: cp...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: CPC: Flight report, Bingen
>
> Dan,
>
> Here's what our online site guide currently says (text by John Halle): "The descriptions in this site guide of flying conditions to be expected reflect the experience of the authors of the guide. The conditions that you encounter at the site may differ from those encountered by the authors. The descriptions of their experiences may not be relevant to the likely experience of any other pilot, particularly one who is relatively inexperienced or new to the site. A decision to launch is always that of the individual pilot. In reaching a decision a pilot may wish to take into account the descriptions in this site guide but must also consider numerous other factors including the pilot's training and experience, familiarity with the site, equipment, physical and mental condition and the specific conditions in existence at the time of the decision. Pilots of relatively little experience or who are new to the site are urged to consult with other pilots at the site to obtain their assessment of the conditions."
>
> So visiting pilots are already being advised to talk to a local pilot before flying. Most pilots are like you and will seek a site intro before flying a new site, but some won't and I don't think the wording in the site guide will change that.
>
> If you're interested in helping to update the Bingen site guide page, contact Ancil and I privately and we'll work with you on it.
>
> Steve
>
> On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:28:09 PM UTC-7, Dan Wells wrote:
>
> Something we may want to add to all our site guides is a statement that STRONGLY advises visiting  pilots not to fly the site without getting a briefing on the site from a local pilot.  Some BOLD type with a warning that pilots who have failed to heed the wind warnings have ended up in the water.  The site guide also needs to be updated on the trail to the south launch and where to park since the house was built up there.
>
> I always read the site guides before visiting a new site and then talk to one of the pilots on launch before flying there.  I think most of us do.
>
> I don’t know the specifics of this latest event.  Could be just poor judgment and piloting  skill on the part of the pilot and none of what I just recommended could help obviate that.
>
> Dan
>
> Dan Wells
>
> 503 804-1077
>

> danbwe...@comcast.net

[Dan Wells]

"Should we make this paragraph a separate page that all new users would have
to click through from either the Site Guide links or before accessing the
Site map, sort of like accepting the disclaimer before every time you post a
Craigslist ad?"

I LIKE that idea...

Dan
Dan Wells
503 804-1077

danb...@comcast.net

[Ancil Nance]

Give me a break.

[Steve Roti]

Yes we can do that. Will people read it? Do people read those disclaimers on other websites, or do they just click Continue without reading?

Steve

[De Wette, Nico W, MD]

To make sure it was indeed read, you could have 2 or 3 more boxes sequentially pop up asking;

 

"did you really read this?"

"are you lying?"

"are you sure you understand the consequences"

and finally

"just kidding!"

 

 

Nico

---

From: cp...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cp...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Roti

Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 11:36 PM

To: cp...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: CPC: Flight report, Bingen

</pre>The contents of this electronic mail message and any attachments are confidential, possibly privileged and intended for the addressee(s) only.<br>Only the addressee(s) may read, disseminate, retain or otherwise use this message. If received in error, please immediately inform the sender and then delete this message without disclosing its contents to anyone.</pre>

[Glen Baker]

How about if we just include a link to this particular thread in the newsgroup, then present a short quiz to ensure that the reader has properly read and understood the issues? Just think of the potential quiz questions:

1) When considering launching at Bingen you should first:

    (a) Consider the prevailing and predicted weather conditions.

    (b) Rent a boat and have it moored at the primary LZ. Ensure that the boat's cooler is properly stocked.

    (c) Purchase a life preserver and leave it in your car.

    (d) Give it up, you don't know what you're doing and shouldn't even be there.

2) The CPC site guide is:

    (a) A complete guide to all possible sites containing every detail necessary to fly at those sites.

    (b) A good place to start learning about the various sites available.

    (c) Site guide? There's a site guide?

3) The CPC members are:

    (a) Fully responsible for all of your actions

    (b) Somewhat responsible for some of your actions

    (c) Irresponsible

    (d) Sober

4) During days that you can't fly, your best option is to:

    (a) Look at one of Henzi's flight logs and repeat "yeah, I could have done that but I didn't feel like it"

    (b) Call up Dave Cantrell and see if you can goad him into ditching work and flying for you

    (c) Avoid doing any real work and spend your time posting to the group instead

    (d) Drink.

Only after scoring at least 80% on the quiz would the person be allowed to even look at the guide. Of course the problem would be figuring out what the right answers are, I'm not sure.

..glen

[Ancil Nance]

You are kidding?

[Ancil Nance]

We should write all the site guides  in Mayan and provide a decoder wheel to those who pass an IQ test.

[Steve Roti]

All kidding aside, I'm going to add a little pop-up window along the lines of what Alan and Dan suggested and we can test it out. If club members like it we can keep it, if not we can pull it and discuss other options. Stay tuned.

Steve

[Ancil Nance]

We could change our club name to Cascade Flying Nannies

On Jul 18, 2012, at 7:57 AM, De Wette, Nico W, MD wrote:

[David Cantrell]

The responses are great.   I like Glen 's suggestion.  That is great.

 

From: Ancil Nance <an...@ancilnance.com>
To: nico.d...@usoncology.com
Cc: stev...@hotmail.com; cp...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: CPC: Flight report, Bingen

[CB]

CB says

D,C,D,D

I would go for D on two but there was no D

Glen please grade for me so I can send in to USHPA

for my P Br

[Dan Wells]

Thanks Steve.  This isn’t really for club members since they quickly become familiar with the sites.  It’s for visiting pilots who look at the site guide. A  more obvious popup or separate page that comes up and that cautions pilots not to rely on the site guide alone might save one pilot and is not going to be a big deal for the club members.  Most of us have read the site guide when we first started flying there and then rely on the club posts for updates.

 

As USHPA pilots and club members it is also our responsibility when we see someone we don’t know flying at our sites to talk to them and make sure they are aware of conditions and ask them if they have any questions about the site.  I don’t do a very good job at this but I will try and do better in the future.  We all need to.  All it takes is one fatality and the landowners might decide not to grant us access and we lose the site. 

 

 

 

Dan

Dan Wells

503 804-1077

danb...@comcast.net

 

From: cp...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cp...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Roti
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 8:45 AM
To: cp...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: CPC: Flight report, Bingen

 

All kidding aside, I'm going to add a little pop-up window along the lines of what Alan and Dan suggested and we can test it out. If club members like it we can keep it, if not we can pull it and discuss other options. Stay tuned.

[Steve Roti]

Here's my first cut at a pop-up warning on the site guide page ...

http://www.cascadeparaglidingclub.org/pages/sites.php 

As I mentioned the text was written by former CPC member John Halle. John also wrote one of my favorite aviation safety articles of all time, which is worth a read or a re-read by anyone interested in longevity ...

http://www.cascadeparaglidingclub.org/pages/luck.php 

Steve

[Peter Reagan]

Steve, Thanks for the pop up and also especially for the article from John. It was great re-reading it. Every time I do I appreciate it more. He has his finger on the very center of the safety conundrum. 

   What a great thread!  See there is an upside way to cope with unflyable weather.    -Pete

[Glen Baker]

CB: your score is 75% so you do not pass. The correct answer for question 2 is in fact "D", despite the fact that there is no D (sometimes you have to seek alternative solutions). Go with your gut next time.

..glen

[Steve Roti]

Dan wrote "My only suggestion would be to make the last sentence BOLD and maybe the start of a new paragraph.  That last sentence is the key message."

I've updated the pop-up warning to incorporate Dan's suggestion.

http://www.cascadeparaglidingclub.org/pages/sites.php 

Steve

[Ancil Nance]

Oh, good, now that should take care of it. That has been missing from the site all these years and no doubt led to many accidents. :)

Seriously,  wasn't that something we all were taught back when we took lessons? Maybe BOLD isn't good enough, how about flashing RED?

Maybe the warning needs to be filled with misspellings so that some people will recognize the words better.

[Stan Mordensky]

Make sure to include Petersons Butte then.

--
Stan Mordensky | M.S. Candidate | University of Oregon |
Eugene, OR 97403-1272 | (301)-639-8619 | stan...@uoregon.edu |

[Dan Wells]

Come Ancil,  Lighten up.  I agree with nearly all of your points. Even pilots  who read the site guide and get a  site briefing can still make judgment errors.  But maybe we just saved one visiting pilot from becoming a Darwin award winner.

 

Dan

Dan Wells

503 804-1077

danb...@comcast.net

 

From: cp...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cp...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ancil Nance
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 11:59 AM
To: stev...@hotmail.com
Cc: cp...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: CPC: Flight report, Bingen

 

Oh, good, now that should take care of it. That has been missing from the site all these years and no doubt led to many accidents. :)

[skf...@effectnet.com]

Why would we want to defeat Darwinism! That is one of the problems of modern life, everyone can survive. Natural selection is a good thing.

SF

Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!

----- Reply message -----
From: "Dan Wells" <danb...@comcast.net>
Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2012 2:05 pm
Subject: CPC: Flight report, Bingen
To: <an...@ancilnance.com>
Cc: <cp...@googlegroups.com>

Come Ancil,  Lighten up.  I agree with nearly all of your points. Even pilots  who read the site guide and get a  site briefing can still make judgment errors.  But maybe we just saved one visiting pilot from becoming a Darwin award winner.

 

Dan

Dan Wells

503 804-1077

danb...@comcast.net

 

From: cp...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cp...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ancil Nance
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 11:59 AM
To: stev...@hotmail.com
Cc: cp...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: CPC: Flight report, Bingen

 

Oh, good, now that should take care of it. That has been missing from the site all these years and no doubt led to many accidents. :)

 

Seriously,  wasn't that something we all were taught back when we took lessons? Maybe BOLD isn't good enough, how about flashing RED?

 

Maybe the warning needs to be filled with misspellings so that some people will recognize the words better.

 

On Jul 18, 2012, at 11:49 AM, Steve Roti wrote:

Dan wrote "My only suggestion would be to make the last sentence BOLD and maybe the start of a new paragraph.  That last sentence is the key message."

 

I've updated the pop-up warning to incorporate Dan's suggestion.

 

http://www..cascadeparaglidingclub.org/pages/sites.php 

 

Steve

On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 9:56:52 AM UTC-7, Steve Roti wrote:

Here's my first cut at a pop-up warning on the site guide page ....