Lakeview is a great place to fly. I've logged many hours and many miles there and it has provided me numerous personal bests (one of which was maximum sink in front of Sugar launch.) That being said, Lakeview is BIG air, really big air. I don't think any site in the Portland area prepares you for the strength and nastiness of the thermals encountered there. I would imagine it compares to mid day flying at Pine Mountain but I don't have the experience at Pine to back up that claim. Anyone flying there, needs to treat it with the upmost respect.
The one thing in Matt's report that gives me pause is when he said "I could feel that I was on the edge of thermal and was poised, waiting for the beep beep of my vario...." Maybe he just meant this figuratively but if indeed that was what he was waiting for, then he was not actively flying his wing. By the time the vario beeps the main event, entering the rising wall of air, is over and you're now in a state of recovery. Actively flying the wing is responding to the wing through brake pressure, seat pressure, and riser pressure. Try flying with the vario sound off so it's not a distraction. Do that for 10 or 20 or more consecutive flights. You'll find yourself becoming more in tune with the wing and better able to respond to its movements. When you turn the vario back on, you'll be amazed at how much easier it is to thermal.
On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 7:23 AM, Jim B. <imji...@comcast.net> wrote:
> **
> Please take the following as my viewpoint only.
> Lakeview is a great place to fly. I've logged many hours and many miles
> there and it has provided me numerous personal bests (one of which was
> maximum sink in front of Sugar launch.) That being said, Lakeview is BIG
> air, really big air. I don't think any site in the Portland area prepares
> you for the strength and nastiness of the thermals encountered there. I
> would imagine it compares to mid day flying at Pine Mountain but I don't
> have the experience at Pine to back up that claim. Anyone flying there,
> needs to treat it with the upmost respect.
> The one thing in Matt's report that gives me pause is when he said "I
> could feel that I was on the edge of thermal and was poised, waiting for
> the beep beep of my vario...." Maybe he just meant this figuratively but
> if indeed that was what he was waiting for, then he was not actively flying
> his wing. By the time the vario beeps the main event, entering the rising
> wall of air, is over and you're now in a state of recovery. Actively
> flying the wing is responding to the wing through brake pressure, seat
> pressure, and riser pressure. Try flying with the vario sound off so it's
> not a distraction. Do that for 10 or 20 or more consecutive flights.
> You'll find yourself becoming more in tune with the wing and better able to
> respond to its movements. When you turn the vario back on, you'll be
> amazed at how much easier it is to thermal.
Something I have been thinking about is vacation or destination flying sites. I don't do many flying vacations of trips as my travel for work often determines where I will fly. Due to that I may be wrong but my observation is that pilots will launch in way stronger conditions then they would or do at home sites. Probably a little pressure to fly and not waste the trip and being around pilots (and sites typically flown in strong conditions)that fly in stronger conditions are a couple of factors. If it would be intimidating at home it should be so on the road. Trust that voice inside.
SF
Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!
----- Reply message ----- From: "Jim B." <imji...@comcast.net> Date: Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:23 am Subject: CPC: Thoughts about Lakeview To: <C...@Googlegroups.com>
Please take the following as my viewpoint only.
Lakeview is a great place to fly. I've logged many hours and many miles there and it has provided me numerous personal bests (one of which was maximum sink in front of Sugar launch.) That being said, Lakeview is BIG air, really big air. I don't think any site in the Portland area prepares you for the strength and nastiness of the thermals encountered there. I would imagine it compares to mid day flying at Pine Mountain but I don't have the experience at Pine to back up that claim. Anyone flying there, needs to treat it with the upmost respect.
The one thing in Matt's report that gives me pause is when he said "I could feel that I was on the edge of thermal and was poised, waiting for the beep beep of my vario...." Maybe he just meant this figuratively but if indeed that was what he was waiting for, then he was not actively flying his wing. By the time the vario beeps the main event, entering the rising wall of air, is over and you're now in a state of recovery. Actively flying the wing is responding to the wing through brake pressure, seat pressure, and riser pressure. Try flying with the vario sound off so it's not a distraction. Do that for 10 or 20 or more consecutive flights. You'll find yourself becoming more in tune with the wing and better able to respond to its movements. When you turn the vario back on, you'll be amazed at how much easier it is to thermal.
I appreciate everyone's advice on my incident in Lakeview. The one conclusion I came away with is that the risks of flying at Lakeview are also met with huge rewards for many. I do consider myself an active pilot. That's how I felt I was on the edge of a thermal. It was through the pressure in my wing and brake lines that I knew I would soon be entering lift. Having said that, I know I don't always make precisely the correct inputs always at the right time and that's why I fly a DHV 1-2 glider. I think I must be doing a reasonably decent job because I flew for many hours in turbulent air at the Race Race and had a handful of non-eventful tip collapses. Which, I guess brings me back to my original question and that is, if this reversal from -8 m/s sink to + 23 m/s of lift recorded by my Flymaster is anywhere near being accurate, is this something that most paraglider pilots should be able to handle. Is there a way to actively pilot through something like that?
On Monday, July 9, 2012 7:23:18 AM UTC-7, jimyb wrote:
> Please take the following as my viewpoint only.
> Lakeview is a great place to fly. I've logged many hours and many miles > there and it has provided me numerous personal bests (one of which was > maximum sink in front of Sugar launch.) That being said, Lakeview is BIG > air, really big air. I don't think any site in the Portland area prepares > you for the strength and nastiness of the thermals encountered there. I > would imagine it compares to mid day flying at Pine Mountain but I don't > have the experience at Pine to back up that claim. Anyone flying there, > needs to treat it with the upmost respect.
> The one thing in Matt's report that gives me pause is when he said "I > could feel that I was on the edge of thermal and was poised, waiting for > the beep beep of my vario...." Maybe he just meant this figuratively but > if indeed that was what he was waiting for, then he was not actively flying > his wing. By the time the vario beeps the main event, entering the rising > wall of air, is over and you're now in a state of recovery. Actively > flying the wing is responding to the wing through brake pressure, seat > pressure, and riser pressure. Try flying with the vario sound off so it's > not a distraction. Do that for 10 or 20 or more consecutive flights. > You'll find yourself becoming more in tune with the wing and better able to > respond to its movements. When you turn the vario back on, you'll be > amazed at how much easier it is to thermal.
I agree with Jim's viewpoint on the Lakeview area flying sites. In my experience there are more moderate flying days during the summer in Lakeview than at Pine Mountain, perhaps due to the lakes and irrigated fields in the valleys, but on strong days it can be just as turbulent as Pine Mountain.
The Lakeview site guide page on the CPC website links to two more detailed Lakeview site guides (written by HG pilots) which both contain cautions about the weather conditions.
"Sugar is one of the most famous and most used sites in the area. Launches face SW and in summer conditions can get very strong on launch after midday. ... Sugar can be quite rowdy midday and strong winds can sometimes take thermals faster over the back than they climb. On windy days it is a good idea to make sure that if you leave a thermal behind the peak with the intention of making it back in front of Sugar that you have the penetration, glide and altitude to make it."
"Always keep in mind that a site can rapidly change from Novice to Advanced to Insane depending on the weather conditions. Please use your own powers of observation and common sense before flying. ... Conditions: Usual summer conditions begin with light southerly winds in the morning, increasing during late morning and early afternoon and swinging west late in the day. But hey, anything can happen. This is high desert country. Thermals are generally pleasant, but can be turbulent at times. The winds can vary in direction and velocity at different altitudes. Always be aware of your ability to penetrate."
I've heard that 0 to 2000 ft/min is the limit of being able to handle. I do not have any experience to back that up. I would think that most pilots would not be able to handle the limit so it's how you handle the result that is extremely important. I would also think that a reserve toss is one very acceptable way of handling it when time is of the essence. I highly respect anyone who has tossed in these situations and hope that if I ever encounter one I can be calm headed enough to follow in their/your footsteps.
Jim B.
From: matt w Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 9:32 AM
To: cpcl@googlegroups.com Cc: C...@Googlegroups.com Subject: CPC: Re: Thoughts about Lakeview
I appreciate everyone's advice on my incident in Lakeview. The one conclusion I came away with is that the risks of flying at Lakeview are also met with huge rewards for many. I do consider myself an active pilot. That's how I felt I was on the edge of a thermal. It was through the pressure in my wing and brake lines that I knew I would soon be entering lift. Having said that, I know I don't always make precisely the correct inputs always at the right time and that's why I fly a DHV 1-2 glider. I think I must be doing a reasonably decent job because I flew for many hours in turbulent air at the Race Race and had a handful of non-eventful tip collapses. Which, I guess brings me back to my original question and that is, if this reversal from -8 m/s sink to + 23 m/s of lift recorded by my Flymaster is anywhere near being accurate, is this something that most paraglider pilots should be able to handle. Is there a way to actively pilot through something like that?
On Monday, July 9, 2012 7:23:18 AM UTC-7, jimyb wrote:
Please take the following as my viewpoint only.
Lakeview is a great place to fly. I've logged many hours and many miles there and it has provided me numerous personal bests (one of which was maximum sink in front of Sugar launch.) That being said, Lakeview is BIG air, really big air. I don't think any site in the Portland area prepares you for the strength and nastiness of the thermals encountered there. I would imagine it compares to mid day flying at Pine Mountain but I don't have the experience at Pine to back up that claim. Anyone flying there, needs to treat it with the upmost respect.
The one thing in Matt's report that gives me pause is when he said "I could feel that I was on the edge of thermal and was poised, waiting for the beep beep of my vario...." Maybe he just meant this figuratively but if indeed that was what he was waiting for, then he was not actively flying his wing. By the time the vario beeps the main event, entering the rising wall of air, is over and you're now in a state of recovery. Actively flying the wing is responding to the wing through brake pressure, seat pressure, and riser pressure. Try flying with the vario sound off so it's not a distraction. Do that for 10 or 20 or more consecutive flights. You'll find yourself becoming more in tune with the wing and better able to respond to its movements. When you turn the vario back on, you'll be amazed at how much easier it is to thermal.
Matt asked, "Which, I guess brings me back to my original question and that is, if this reversal from -8 m/s sink to + 23 m/s of lift recorded by my Flymaster is anywhere near being accurate, is this something that most paraglider pilots should be able to handle. Is there a way to actively pilot through something like that?"
Every situation is unique, but the easy answer is there are extreme events that no PG or HG can actively pilot through. Here's a classic story by Bruce Goldsmith ...
What a fantastic safety discussion on the part of all involved! It would make a great safety article just printed verbatim in the magazine. GPS documentation included. I LOVE it! Woulda made my job so easy back then. Thanks all of you for your thoughtful contributions. -Pete
> I've heard that 0 to 2000 ft/min is the limit of being able to handle. I do not have any experience to back that up. I would think that most pilots would not be able to handle the limit so it's how you handle the result that is extremely important. I would also think that a reserve toss is one very acceptable way of handling it when time is of the essence. I highly respect anyone who has tossed in these situations and hope that if I ever encounter one I can be calm headed enough to follow in their/your footsteps.
> Jim B.
> From: matt w
> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 9:32 AM
> To: cpcl@googlegroups.com
> Cc: C...@Googlegroups.com
> Subject: CPC: Re: Thoughts about Lakeview
> I appreciate everyone's advice on my incident in Lakeview. The one conclusion I came away with is that the risks of flying at Lakeview are also met with huge rewards for many. I do consider myself an active pilot. That's how I felt I was on the edge of a thermal. It was through the pressure in my wing and brake lines that I knew I would soon be entering lift. Having said that, I know I don't always make precisely the correct inputs always at the right time and that's why I fly a DHV 1-2 glider. I think I must be doing a reasonably decent job because I flew for many hours in turbulent air at the Race Race and had a handful of non-eventful tip collapses. Which, I guess brings me back to my original question and that is, if this reversal from -8 m/s sink to + 23 m/s of lift recorded by my Flymaster is anywhere near being accurate, is this something that most paraglider pilots should be able to handle. Is there a way to actively pilot through something like that?
> On Monday, July 9, 2012 7:23:18 AM UTC-7, jimyb wrote:
> Please take the following as my viewpoint only.
> Lakeview is a great place to fly. I've logged many hours and many miles there and it has provided me numerous personal bests (one of which was maximum sink in front of Sugar launch.) That being said, Lakeview is BIG air, really big air. I don't think any site in the Portland area prepares you for the strength and nastiness of the thermals encountered there. I would imagine it compares to mid day flying at Pine Mountain but I don't have the experience at Pine to back up that claim. Anyone flying there, needs to treat it with the upmost respect.
> The one thing in Matt's report that gives me pause is when he said "I could feel that I was on the edge of thermal and was poised, waiting for the beep beep of my vario...." Maybe he just meant this figuratively but if indeed that was what he was waiting for, then he was not actively flying his wing. By the time the vario beeps the main event, entering the rising wall of air, is over and you're now in a state of recovery. Actively flying the wing is responding to the wing through brake pressure, seat pressure, and riser pressure. Try flying with the vario sound off so it's not a distraction. Do that for 10 or 20 or more consecutive flights. You'll find yourself becoming more in tune with the wing and better able to respond to its movements. When you turn the vario back on, you'll be amazed at how much easier it is to thermal.
I'd like to add that my biggest fear is over-thinking the throw. I've
taken two SIV courses now and have a certain level of confidence that as
long as I'm not tangled in the lines, that I could sort out my 1-2 wing...
given enough altitude. But this is where "knowing enough to be dangerous"
is real, should I start to go through the recovery process and NOT throw
instead.
What I would like to have in mind is a pre-determined elevation AGL that I
could visually recognize so I can actively be looking for that level. That
way I might tell myself as I fly, "OK Bill, you are now below your huck
level, so if something nasty happens, throw immediately." But the
recovery time from a collapse is so variable because of so many factors...
On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Peter Reagan <gliderp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What a fantastic safety discussion on the part of all involved! It would
> make a great safety article just printed verbatim in the magazine. GPS
> documentation included. I LOVE it! Woulda made my job so easy back then.
> Thanks all of you for your thoughtful contributions. -Pete
> On Jul 9, 2012, at 9:54 AM, Jim B. wrote:
> I've heard that 0 to 2000 ft/min is the limit of being able to handle.
> I do not have any experience to back that up. I would think that most
> pilots would not be able to handle the limit so it's how you handle the
> result that is extremely important. I would also think that a reserve toss
> is one very acceptable way of handling it when time is of the essence. I
> highly respect anyone who has tossed in these situations and hope that if I
> ever encounter one I can be calm headed enough to follow in their/your
> footsteps.
> Jim B.
> *From:* matt w <matchemat...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2012 9:32 AM
> *To:* cpcl@googlegroups.com
> *Cc:* C...@Googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* CPC: Re: Thoughts about Lakeview
> I appreciate everyone's advice on my incident in Lakeview. The one
> conclusion I came away with is that the risks of flying at Lakeview are
> also met with huge rewards for many. I do consider myself an active pilot.
> That's how I felt I was on the edge of a thermal. It was through the
> pressure in my wing and brake lines that I knew I would soon be entering
> lift. Having said that, I know I don't always make precisely the correct
> inputs always at the right time and that's why I fly a DHV 1-2 glider. I
> think I must be doing a reasonably decent job because I flew for many hours
> in turbulent air at the Race Race and had a handful of non-eventful tip
> collapses. Which, I guess brings me back to my original question and that
> is, if this reversal from -8 m/s sink to + 23 m/s of lift recorded by my
> Flymaster is anywhere near being accurate, is this something that most
> paraglider pilots should be able to handle. Is there a way to actively
> pilot through something like that?
> On Monday, July 9, 2012 7:23:18 AM UTC-7, jimyb wrote:
>> Please take the following as my viewpoint only.
>> Lakeview is a great place to fly. I've logged many hours and many miles
>> there and it has provided me numerous personal bests (one of which was
>> maximum sink in front of Sugar launch.) That being said, Lakeview is BIG
>> air, really big air. I don't think any site in the Portland area prepares
>> you for the strength and nastiness of the thermals encountered there. I
>> would imagine it compares to mid day flying at Pine Mountain but I don't
>> have the experience at Pine to back up that claim. Anyone flying there,
>> needs to treat it with the upmost respect.
>> The one thing in Matt's report that gives me pause is when he said "I
>> could feel that I was on the edge of thermal and was poised, waiting for
>> the beep beep of my vario...." Maybe he just meant this figuratively but
>> if indeed that was what he was waiting for, then he was not actively flying
>> his wing. By the time the vario beeps the main event, entering the rising
>> wall of air, is over and you're now in a state of recovery. Actively
>> flying the wing is responding to the wing through brake pressure, seat
>> pressure, and riser pressure. Try flying with the vario sound off so it's
>> not a distraction. Do that for 10 or 20 or more consecutive flights.
>> You'll find yourself becoming more in tune with the wing and better able to
>> respond to its movements. When you turn the vario back on, you'll be
>> amazed at how much easier it is to thermal.
What the pros call 'maintaining situational awareness' is critical.
In particular, when something goes bad, you need to constantly check your clearance for terrain—which includes the ground but may well include a ridge, peak, or cliff.
Make 3 promises to yourself:
1. Before deciding to work it out, check your clearance.
2. KEEP checking it as you are working it out.
3. If ever in doubt, chuck. It ain't worth finding out you were wrong.
And here's a good 3.5—if you can't control a spiral in 3 rotations, chuck. If you wind up two fast you may not be able to deployt
On Monday, July 9, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Bill Briskey wrote:
> I'd like to add that my biggest fear is over-thinking the throw. I've taken two SIV courses now and have a certain level of confidence that as long as I'm not tangled in the lines, that I could sort out my 1-2 wing... given enough altitude. But this is where "knowing enough to be dangerous" is real, should I start to go through the recovery process and NOT throw instead.
> What I would like to have in mind is a pre-determined elevation AGL that I could visually recognize so I can actively be looking for that level. That way I might tell myself as I fly, "OK Bill, you are now below your huck level, so if something nasty happens, throw immediately." But the recovery time from a collapse is so variable because of so many factors...
> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Peter Reagan <gliderp...@gmail.com (mailto:gliderp...@gmail.com)> wrote:
> > What a fantastic safety discussion on the part of all involved! It would make a great safety article just printed verbatim in the magazine. GPS documentation included. I LOVE it! Woulda made my job so easy back then. Thanks all of you for your thoughtful contributions. -Pete
> > On Jul 9, 2012, at 9:54 AM, Jim B. wrote:
> > > I've heard that 0 to 2000 ft/min is the limit of being able to handle. I do not have any experience to back that up. I would think that most pilots would not be able to handle the limit so it's how you handle the result that is extremely important. I would also think that a reserve toss is one very acceptable way of handling it when time is of the essence. I highly respect anyone who has tossed in these situations and hope that if I ever encounter one I can be calm headed enough to follow in their/your footsteps.
> > > Jim B.
> > > From: matt w (mailto:matchemat...@gmail.com)
> > > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 9:32 AM
> > > To: cpcl@googlegroups.com (mailto:cpcl@googlegroups.com)
> > > Cc: C...@Googlegroups.com (mailto:C...@Googlegroups.com)
> > > Subject: CPC: Re: Thoughts about Lakeview
> > > I appreciate everyone's advice on my incident in Lakeview. The one conclusion I came away with is that the risks of flying at Lakeview are also met with huge rewards for many. I do consider myself an active pilot. That's how I felt I was on the edge of a thermal. It was through the pressure in my wing and brake lines that I knew I would soon be entering lift. Having said that, I know I don't always make precisely the correct inputs always at the right time and that's why I fly a DHV 1-2 glider. I think I must be doing a reasonably decent job because I flew for many hours in turbulent air at the Race Race and had a handful of non-eventful tip collapses. Which, I guess brings me back to my original question and that is, if this reversal from -8 m/s sink to + 23 m/s of lift recorded by my Flymaster is anywhere near being accurate, is this something that most paraglider pilots should be able to handle. Is there a way to actively pilot through something like that?
> > > On Monday, July 9, 2012 7:23:18 AM UTC-7, jimyb wrote:
> > > > Please take the following as my viewpoint only.
> > > > Lakeview is a great place to fly. I've logged many hours and many miles there and it has provided me numerous personal bests (one of which was maximum sink in front of Sugar launch.) That being said, Lakeview is BIG air, really big air. I don't think any site in the Portland area prepares you for the strength and nastiness of the thermals encountered there. I would imagine it compares to mid day flying at Pine Mountain but I don't have the experience at Pine to back up that claim. Anyone flying there, needs to treat it with the upmost respect.
> > > > The one thing in Matt's report that gives me pause is when he said "I could feel that I was on the edge of thermal and was poised, waiting for the beep beep of my vario...." Maybe he just meant this figuratively but if indeed that was what he was waiting for, then he was not actively flying his wing. By the time the vario beeps the main event, entering the rising wall of air, is over and you're now in a state of recovery. Actively flying the wing is responding to the wing through brake pressure, seat pressure, and riser pressure. Try flying with the vario sound off so it's not a distraction. Do that for 10 or 20 or more consecutive flights. You'll find yourself becoming more in tune with the wing and better able to respond to its movements. When you turn the vario back on, you'll be amazed at how much easier it is to thermal.
At the Rat Race mentoring classes, one of the topics is Minimums. Which discusses what ever situation your in, close to the terrain or correing close to the hill, in case something goes bad have a predermined Minimum distance to the terrain that you will be hucking the chute without hesitation. Food for thought. Dave
________________________________ From: Bill Briskey <wi...@peak.org> To: gliderp...@gmail.com Cc: imji...@comcast.net; matchemat...@gmail.com; cpcl@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, July 9, 2012 11:46 AM Subject: Re: CPC: Re: Thoughts about Lakeview
I'd like to add that my biggest fear is over-thinking the throw. I've taken two SIV courses now and have a certain level of confidence that as long as I'm not tangled in the lines, that I could sort out my 1-2 wing... given enough altitude. But this is where "knowing enough to be dangerous" is real, should I start to go through the recovery process and NOT throw instead.
What I would like to have in mind is a pre-determined elevation AGL that I could visually recognize so I can actively be looking for that level. That way I might tell myself as I fly, "OK Bill, you are now below your huck level, so if something nasty happens, throw immediately." But the recovery time from a collapse is so variable because of so many factors...
On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Peter Reagan <gliderp...@gmail.com> wrote:
What a fantastic safety discussion on the part of all involved! It would make a great safety article just printed verbatim in the magazine. GPS documentation included. I LOVE it! Woulda made my job so easy back then. Thanks all of you for your thoughtful contributions. -Pete
>I've heard that 0 to 2000 ft/min is the limit of being able to handle. I do not have any experience to back that up. I would think that most pilots would not be able to handle the limit so it's how you handle the result that is extremely important. I would also think that a reserve toss is one very acceptable way of handling it when time is of the essence. I highly respect anyone who has tossed in these situations and hope that if I ever encounter one I can be calm headed enough to follow in their/your footsteps. >> >>Jim B. >>
>>From: matt w >>Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 9:32 AM >>To: cpcl@googlegroups.com >>Cc: C...@Googlegroups.com >>Subject: CPC: Re: Thoughts about Lakeview
>>I appreciate everyone's advice on my incident in Lakeview. The one conclusion I came away with is that the risks of flying at Lakeview are also met with huge rewards for many. I do consider myself an active pilot. That's how I felt I was on the edge of a thermal. It was through the pressure in my wing and brake lines that I knew I would soon be entering lift. Having said that, I know I don't always make precisely the correct inputs always at the right time and that's why I fly a DHV 1-2 glider. I think I must be doing a reasonably decent job because I flew for many hours in turbulent air at the Race Race and had a handful of non-eventful tip collapses. Which, I guess brings me back to my original question and that is, if this reversal from -8 m/s sink to + 23 m/s of lift recorded by my Flymaster is anywhere near being accurate, is this something that most paraglider pilots should be able to handle. Is there a way to actively pilot
>>On Monday, July 9, 2012 7:23:18 AM UTC-7, jimyb wrote: >>Please take the following as my viewpoint only. >>> >>>Lakeview is a great place to fly. I've logged many hours and many miles there and it has provided me numerous personal bests (one of which was maximum sink in front of Sugar launch.) That being said, Lakeview is BIG air, really big air. I don't think any site in the Portland area prepares you for the strength and nastiness of the thermals encountered there. I would imagine it compares to mid day flying at Pine Mountain but I don't have the experience at Pine to back up that claim. Anyone flying there, needs to treat it with the upmost respect. >>> >>> >>>The one thing in Matt's report that gives me pause is when he said "I could feel that I was on the edge of thermal and was poised, waiting for the beep beep of my vario...." Maybe he just meant this figuratively but if indeed that was what he was waiting for, then he was not actively flying his wing. By the time the vario beeps the main event, entering the rising wall of air, is over and you're now in a state of recovery. Actively flying the wing is responding to the wing through brake pressure, seat pressure, and riser pressure. Try flying with the vario sound off so it's not a distraction. Do that for 10 or 20 or more consecutive flights. You'll find yourself becoming more in tune with the wing and better able to respond to its movements. When you turn the vario back on, you'll be amazed at how much easier it is to thermal. >>> >>>Jim B. >>> >>>
A couple sayings I've tried to live by over the years...
"When in doubt--don't."
"It's always a good decision not to fly"
Fortunately I generally fly with pilots who are safety conscious and risk averse which also helps a lot. In addition the more Mary Beth becomes knowledgable in the sport and comes out flying with me she becomes a good voice of reason in tempering my desire to get in the air with a more impartial judge of conditions.
Sent from my iPhone
Dan Wells
On Jul 9, 2012, at 12:31, Jeff Wishnie <j...@pacskyways.com> wrote:
> What the pros call 'maintaining situational awareness' is critical.
> In particular, when something goes bad, you need to constantly check your clearance for terrain—which includes the ground but may well include a ridge, peak, or cliff.
> Make 3 promises to yourself:
> 1. Before deciding to work it out, check your clearance.
> 2. KEEP checking it as you are working it out.
> 3. If ever in doubt, chuck. It ain't worth finding out you were wrong.
> And here's a good 3.5—if you can't control a spiral in 3 rotations, chuck. If you wind up two fast you may not be able to deployt
> best,
> Jeff
> On Monday, July 9, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Bill Briskey wrote:
>> I'd like to add that my biggest fear is over-thinking the throw. I've taken two SIV courses now and have a certain level of confidence that as long as I'm not tangled in the lines, that I could sort out my 1-2 wing... given enough altitude. But this is where "knowing enough to be dangerous" is real, should I start to go through the recovery process and NOT throw instead.
>> What I would like to have in mind is a pre-determined elevation AGL that I could visually recognize so I can actively be looking for that level. That way I might tell myself as I fly, "OK Bill, you are now below your huck level, so if something nasty happens, throw immediately." But the recovery time from a collapse is so variable because of so many factors...
>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Peter Reagan <gliderp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> What a fantastic safety discussion on the part of all involved! It would make a great safety article just printed verbatim in the magazine. GPS documentation included. I LOVE it! Woulda made my job so easy back then. Thanks all of you for your thoughtful contributions. -Pete
>>> On Jul 9, 2012, at 9:54 AM, Jim B. wrote:
>>>> I've heard that 0 to 2000 ft/min is the limit of being able to handle. I do not have any experience to back that up. I would think that most pilots would not be able to handle the limit so it's how you handle the result that is extremely important. I would also think that a reserve toss is one very acceptable way of handling it when time is of the essence. I highly respect anyone who has tossed in these situations and hope that if I ever encounter one I can be calm headed enough to follow in their/your footsteps.
>>>> Jim B.
>>>> From: matt w
>>>> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 9:32 AM
>>>> To: cpcl@googlegroups.com
>>>> Cc: C...@Googlegroups.com
>>>> Subject: CPC: Re: Thoughts about Lakeview
>>>> I appreciate everyone's advice on my incident in Lakeview. The one conclusion I came away with is that the risks of flying at Lakeview are also met with huge rewards for many. I do consider myself an active pilot. That's how I felt I was on the edge of a thermal. It was through the pressure in my wing and brake lines that I knew I would soon be entering lift. Having said that, I know I don't always make precisely the correct inputs always at the right time and that's why I fly a DHV 1-2 glider. I think I must be doing a reasonably decent job because I flew for many hours in turbulent air at the Race Race and had a handful of non-eventful tip collapses. Which, I guess brings me back to my original question and that is, if this reversal from -8 m/s sink to + 23 m/s of lift recorded by my Flymaster is anywhere near being accurate, is this something that most paraglider pilots should be able to handle. Is there a way to actively pilot through something like that?
>>>> On Monday, July 9, 2012 7:23:18 AM UTC-7, jimyb wrote:
>>>>> Please take the following as my viewpoint only.
>>>>> Lakeview is a great place to fly. I've logged many hours and many miles there and it has provided me numerous personal bests (one of which was maximum sink in front of Sugar launch.) That being said, Lakeview is BIG air, really big air. I don't think any site in the Portland area prepares you for the strength and nastiness of the thermals encountered there. I would imagine it compares to mid day flying at Pine Mountain but I don't have the experience at Pine to back up that claim. Anyone flying there, needs to treat it with the upmost respect.
>>>>> The one thing in Matt's report that gives me pause is when he said "I could feel that I was on the edge of thermal and was poised, waiting for the beep beep of my vario...." Maybe he just meant this figuratively but if indeed that was what he was waiting for, then he was not actively flying his wing. By the time the vario beeps the main event, entering the rising wall of air, is over and you're now in a state of recovery. Actively flying the wing is responding to the wing through brake pressure, seat pressure, and riser pressure. Try flying with the vario sound off so it's not a distraction. Do that for 10 or 20 or more consecutive flights. You'll find yourself becoming more in tune with the wing and better able to respond to its movements. When you turn the vario back on, you'll be amazed at how much easier it is to thermal.
Matt, I looked at your tracklog. The point at which you were sinking rapidly shows that it occurred in front of the ridgeline. It also shows that your direction of travel was NE, back towards the ridgeline, rather than SW, moving away from the ridgeline. Your tracklog shows that your direction of travel was the same as your drift in the first thermal.
So if we assume that you were headed SW, it seems that you were actually going backwards in sink.
You might have been in between two large parts of the thermal. One sucking you down and backwards as it pulled you from behind. The other was in front of you, waiting to screw around with your wing.
In any case, Those aren’t places I’d want to be in a paraglider.
Paul Murdoch
From: cpcl@googlegroups.com [mailto:cpcl@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Wells
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 1:44 PM
To: j...@pacskyways.com
Cc: wi...@peak.org; gliderp...@gmail.com; imji...@comcast.net; matchemat...@gmail.com; cpcl@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: CPC: Re: Thoughts about Lakeview
A couple sayings I've tried to live by over the years...
"When in doubt--don't."
"It's always a good decision not to fly"
Fortunately I generally fly with pilots who are safety conscious and risk averse which also helps a lot. In addition the more Mary Beth becomes knowledgable in the sport and comes out flying with me she becomes a good voice of reason in tempering my desire to get in the air with a more impartial judge of conditions.
Sent from my iPhone
Dan Wells
On Jul 9, 2012, at 12:31, Jeff Wishnie <j...@pacskyways.com> wrote:
What the pros call 'maintaining situational awareness' is critical.
In particular, when something goes bad, you need to constantly check your clearance for terrain—which includes the ground but may well include a ridge, peak, or cliff.
Make 3 promises to yourself:
1. Before deciding to work it out, check your clearance.
2. KEEP checking it as you are working it out.
3. If ever in doubt, chuck. It ain't worth finding out you were wrong.
And here's a good 3.5—if you can't control a spiral in 3 rotations, chuck. If you wind up two fast you may not be able to deployt
best,
Jeff
On Monday, July 9, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Bill Briskey wrote:
I'd like to add that my biggest fear is over-thinking the throw. I've taken two SIV courses now and have a certain level of confidence that as long as I'm not tangled in the lines, that I could sort out my 1-2 wing... given enough altitude. But this is where "knowing enough to be dangerous" is real, should I start to go through the recovery process and NOT throw instead.
What I would like to have in mind is a pre-determined elevation AGL that I could visually recognize so I can actively be looking for that level. That way I might tell myself as I fly, "OK Bill, you are now below your huck level, so if something nasty happens, throw immediately." But the recovery time from a collapse is so variable because of so many factors...
On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Peter Reagan <gliderp...@gmail.com> wrote:
What a fantastic safety discussion on the part of all involved! It would make a great safety article just printed verbatim in the magazine. GPS documentation included. I LOVE it! Woulda made my job so easy back then. Thanks all of you for your thoughtful contributions. -Pete
On Jul 9, 2012, at 9:54 AM, Jim B. wrote:
I've heard that 0 to 2000 ft/min is the limit of being able to handle. I do not have any experience to back that up. I would think that most pilots would not be able to handle the limit so it's how you handle the result that is extremely important. I would also think that a reserve toss is one very acceptable way of handling it when time is of the essence. I highly respect anyone who has tossed in these situations and hope that if I ever encounter one I can be calm headed enough to follow in their/your footsteps.
I appreciate everyone's advice on my incident in Lakeview. The one conclusion I came away with is that the risks of flying at Lakeview are also met with huge rewards for many. I do consider myself an active pilot. That's how I felt I was on the edge of a thermal. It was through the pressure in my wing and brake lines that I knew I would soon be entering lift. Having said that, I know I don't always make precisely the correct inputs always at the right time and that's why I fly a DHV 1-2 glider. I think I must be doing a reasonably decent job because I flew for many hours in turbulent air at the Race Race and had a handful of non-eventful tip collapses. Which, I guess brings me back to my original question and that is, if this reversal from -8 m/s sink to + 23 m/s of lift recorded by my Flymaster is anywhere near being accurate, is this something that most paraglider pilots should be able to handle. Is there a way to actively pilot through something like that?
On Monday, July 9, 2012 7:23:18 AM UTC-7, jimyb wrote:
Please take the following as my viewpoint only.
Lakeview is a great place to fly. I've logged many hours and many miles there and it has provided me numerous personal bests (one of which was maximum sink in front of Sugar launch.) That being said, Lakeview is BIG air, really big air. I don't think any site in the Portland area prepares you for the strength and nastiness of the thermals encountered there. I would imagine it compares to mid day flying at Pine Mountain but I don't have the experience at Pine to back up that claim. Anyone flying there, needs to treat it with the upmost respect.
The one thing in Matt's report that gives me pause is when he said "I could feel that I was on the edge of thermal and was poised, waiting for the beep beep of my vario...." Maybe he just meant this figuratively but if indeed that was what he was waiting for, then he was not actively flying his wing. By the time the vario beeps the main event, entering the rising wall of air, is over and you're now in a state of recovery. Actively flying the wing is responding to the wing through brake pressure, seat pressure, and riser pressure. Try flying with the vario sound off so it's not a distraction. Do that for 10 or 20 or more consecutive flights. You'll find yourself becoming more in tune with the wing and better able to respond to its movements. When you turn the vario back on, you'll be amazed at how much easier it is to thermal.
Paul, that's exactly what I think happened at that point. I recall that I was trying to follow the spine of the ridge southwest to get further out in front. Then I hit massive sink and then the thermal it was feeding and the rest was history. I was never below the ridge on the lee. In my report I was just mentioning that I was drifting behind the ridge (but still above it) and had better push back out in front rather than put myself in a position where I could have ended up there. I'm pretty sure the majority of my incident happened inside this massive thermal as my sink rate, even while in a tight spiral, was a mere 2-3 m/s. Destroyed by and saved by the same monster.
