Graphics tablet - worth a try?
Dominique Toussaint
I'm reading this NG for a while now and often read about graphics
tablets - now, I know what it is and I know how it works, but I really
can't decide whether it's really worth it for my kind of work. Since I
do not want to try out with something cheap but would buy "the real
thing" (i.e. some decent Wacom tablet) right away and since this (sadly)
is not for free, I'd value your input on the question: Is it worth it
for my kind of work?
I am a web designer and, as such, use primarily PP10 plus a bunch of
utilities. Draw is used rarely. I use PP and not PS because I feel it's
much easier here to do work "exact to the pixel". Now, does a graphics
tabelt really help here? I know one can do wonderful brush strokes and
such, but those are functions I hardly ever need. If, however, it eases
drawing exact rectangles, image manupulation and the like, it could be a
valuable tool. So what do you say? Should I get one?
Thanks in advance for your opinions
Dominique
Bob Friedman
I say go for it. I have been using Wacom tablet for years. (the small
one,cost about $179.00).
I find that the tablet, being small, I can move much faster than with a
mouse or even a larger tablet. Just a little 2 finger action and so much
easier. It's the difference between drawing with a pencil or a brick.
Most of my work is with photo stuff and layouts. Lots of overlays and
bringing pieces together. After a few days of the tablet you to can learn
to hate your mouse. I now have my mouse with approx. a 12" wire hanging on
the wall out of a rat trap.
I have seen many go back and fourth mouse v tablet as much as hearing
the pc v mac thing. Anyway, I know you will like it.
Bob
richard.tadman
I have a Wacom Tablet, A4 that I have had for two years and couldn't be
without it now. If you are looking for precision particularly when using
masks, it beats a mouse hands down. Pressure sensitive use is very
impressive for the various brushes. I find it useful in every programme I
use. I still use my mouse for some things and the two complement one
another. I'd go for it - it has been a great investment.
Best regards,
Judy Tadman
"Dominique Toussaint" <tous...@circumflex.de> wrote in message
news:3AB371A5...@circumflex.de...
Andrew Hurt
Dominique,
I have a Wacom 6x8, and it is a wonderful tool that provides quite a bit
more sensitivity than the mouse.
> "exact to the pixel"
You may see specifications such as "2450 lpi", remember that there is a
mapping translation inherent in the 'tablet-to-screen' communication.
If you take the 2450 lines-per-inch sensitivity of newer Wacoms, and
have, say, the 6x8 Intuos, you have 20,320 nodes-of-sensitivity on the
x-axis, and 15,240 nos on the y-axis. With my display, I have 1280px on
the x-axis, and 1024px on the y-axis. My Wacom software maps the tablet
to scale down the nos to 62% on the x-axis, and 60% on the y-axis.
Needless to say, the 6x8 is way more than enough for even a 1600x1200
display.
I would think that size determination would be a matter of personal
preference (I had a 4.5x6 long ago, but was just a little to small for
comfort).
Newer Wacoms have 1024 levels of pressure sensitivity, though I am not
sure that any software can take advantage of all 1024 (?).
If you are very used to a mouse, the transition to a tablet may be a
little frustrating, but well worth the learning-curve.
P.S. With all this great sensitivity, the tablet is very aware of every
small movement/nervous tic/caffeine-level/etc.
Hope this helps.
Andrew
Cricket
good and dexterous with a mouse. This pen is absolutely wonderful for Corel
Painter! It works okay in Photopaint 10..though I've found some
insconsistencies sometimes...probably because I'm still new to it. I can't
get it to work well at all in Photopaint 9. I can't use the buttons on the
pen..they are way too awkward for me and need too much pressure for my
fingers and the way I hold a pen makes it very difficult for me to use the
buttons. But that's just me...others love it. So I use the pen for
drawing/painting and single clicking around the interface. I switch to mouse
for most of my other programs (except painter).
The pen will help with drawing your rectangles. It shines with the brushes
though but if you never use those then I think spending the bigger money on
a regular Wacom is overkill. However, if you've made up your mind already,
then go for it <g>
Cricket
C_Tech Volunteer
"Dominique Toussaint" <tous...@circumflex.de> wrote in message
news:3AB371A5...@circumflex.de...
John Phillips
does ok for me. 6x8 is better, but 4x5 does in a pinch.
Re: every small movement. I find it difficult to use the built in button, as
pressing it causes me to move my hand and it loses its function. Any tips?
John
Andrew Hurt wrote:
--
JOMP Graphics
jo...@home.com
http://members.home.net/jomp/index.htm
Dominique Toussaint
as my new comp is straddled (finally that long dreamt-of 1.1 GHz Athlon
<bg>). My only concern right now is the inaccuracy caused by the
aforementioned caffeine level... hmmm... might come in handy for drawing
"torn edges" effects... :)))
Dominique
David Macdonald
says...
> Many thanks for your help - I think I'll get that Wacom tablet as soon
> as my new comp is straddled
Dominique
I'm coming in late. My feeling is once you have got used to one you'll
wonder how you ever managed without. It depends on your usage. If you do
a lot of vector in DRAW with precision dragging and sizing, then you may
find it better, (some don't), but not dramatically so. But if you do
much freehand brushwork with either brushes or effects tools then it can
be an absolute revelation.
The absolute mapping of a slate, where each point on the slate has a
corresponding point on the screen, is utterly different from a mouse and
offers a precison of a quite different kind. It is hard to compare the
two because they are so different. The pen lover's party trick is to say
to the mouser "Write your name". They can't. With a pen it's breeze. Now
that's not actually very useful per se <g>, but behind the ability to do
it lies a hand eye coordination and relationship that quite simply
_cannot_ exist with a mouse. A mouse relates only mouse movement to
cursor movement, it lacks the element of a direct positional
relationship between hand and cursor.
I started years ago with a Calcomp 6 x 8 active area. This is now
consigned to my laptop and I use a larger 9 x 12 active Intuos for the
desktop. I love it. The larger area matches better to my 21" monitor to
which I sit quite close as my eyes are not great. The full active area
is not all used by me for drawing. You can selectively map different
parts of the tablet surface for different tools and actions. My actual
drawing area is about 7 x 9. The downside is that the slate's overall
size is 14 x 18 so it takes up quite a bit of desk. Mine sits directly
in front of the monitor, not off to the side as is common with samller
slates, with the keyboard directly behind it under the monitor. When
using the slate, I just lean forward and reach across the slate when I
want to type, which is very rarely as my whole interface is set up to
maximise pen use. For intensive typing work the keyboard is just pulled
forward and sits over the slate.
It does take getting used to ...... but not long. <g>
This is very personal ans subjective, but I would _never_ consider less
than 6 x 8 active. With 4 x 5, although you are gaining over a mouse,
you are also throwing away much of the advantage of slate over mouse.
The smaller the slate the higher the ratio of cursor movement to pen
movement, this sacrifices accuracy. The smaller the slate the smaller
and more cramped freehand brush movements become. For some people this
is fine, but I need, and relish, the freedom of being able to really
_use_ my pen, not work like a miniaturist with it confined to a tiny
area.
The number of different ways in which you can exploit pressure in PP is
impressive. Unfortunately in V9, which I use, pressure sensitivity
response in brushes is disappointing. To be honest,for most brush work,
I export to another program whose brushes are more interesting and
flexible and have individually editable and adjustable pressure response
curves designed only for pen use. With these, pressure sensitivity is a
dream - a whole new dimension.
To be honest I never touch my mouse now - for anything, except when I am
word processing or other typing intensive work where you don't want to
be holding a pen.
You can reason these things out, and discuss sizes and so forth, but in
the end the real test is that it _feels_ right! We are all raised from
the cradle holding pencils and brushes for drawing and painting, a mouse
quite simply doesn't connect subjectively with the mind in the way a pen
does.
Go ahead - take the plunge - if you do much freehand brushwork then I'll
bet you are going to love it.
David Mac
David Macdonald
> So I use the pen for
> drawing/painting and single clicking around the interface.
>
>
you say is obviously not a good option for you.
I don't know about the Graphire and it's pen, or how hard or soft you
may have the tip set up. But I have found that with the Intuos it has
such a sensitive response that I can keep it set for a very light touch
indeed. After a little practice I found I could produce double clicks
from the pen tip with just the merest of very light double taps, now I
do it without thinking.
David Mac
Bob Friedman
Hold the pen (if right handed) with the button at 9:00. You can rest the pen on
your middle finger and slide your thumb up to click the button.
I have also found if your hand is steady simple tap the tip of the pen to the
pad and it acts like a click.
Bob
Dominique Toussaint
thank you for taking the time - those were exactly the hints I had hoped
for. I had a similar experience when I abandoned the mouse and moved
over to trackballs... I feel itchy now everytime I'm forced to use a
mouse since I the trackball seems to be so much more comfortable and
precise. I was hoping the same to be true for using a tablet, but wanted
to ask first since a *good* tablet isn't as cheap as most other input
devices.
Right now, brush work is the rare exception in my everyday work (mostly
because the typical brush drawing isn't that well suited for web
graphics), but I like to have full control and a wide-spread layout of
possibilities, so the tablet will definitely widen the latter while
hopefully supporting the former.
For about a year now, I've been trying to convince my colleagues (who DO
"free" design for covers and other print stuff) that for them, a tablet
would do wonders, but they are of the "I have everything I need and all
that computer stuf makes me crazy anyway, thank you" category, so I
guess I need to demonstrate a tablet's use to them ;)
Dominique
David Macdonald
says...
> Hold the pen (if right handed) with the button at 9:00. You can rest the pen on
> your middle finger and slide your thumb up to click the button.
>
>
buttons without moving the pen much easier .... in fact it makes
clicking them much easier altogether.
Cricket - if you're watching - have you tried this? It is _way_ easier
than with fingers. Worth a try?
> I have also found if your hand is steady simple tap the tip of the pen to the
> pad and it acts like a click.
It _is_ a click. Touching pen tip to tablet is equivalent to holding
down the left mouse button. So a tap is a single click. I double click
this way too, with a double tap.
David Mac
David Macdonald
says...
> I was hoping the same to be true for using a tablet, but wanted
> to ask first since a *good* tablet isn't as cheap as most other input
> devices.
>
>
>
1) If you are on a budget, don't be tempted into one of the cheaper
devices where the pen is not cordless. They are major PITA.
2) Try to avoid pens which need batteries. They tend to be bulkier and
heavier, and usually run out unexpectedly just when you don't need it.
In the end I would choose beween Wacom, Wacom or Wacom. ISTR that I have
seen some posts about issues between V10 and some Wacoms? Given my
memory that may be quite erronious.
David Mac
Dominique Toussaint
> 1) If you are on a budget, don't be tempted into one of the cheaper
> devices where the pen is not cordless. They are major PITA.
I decide on the budget myself, I only hate to waste $400+ on something
which ends up as a dust catcher ;)
> 2) Try to avoid pens which need batteries. They tend to be bulkier and
> heavier, and usually run out unexpectedly just when you don't need it.
Alright, I have learned (by reading here) that there's really no
alternative to Wacom. After a first glance at the various online stores
I'd opt for the Wacom Intuos A4 regular USB PC/Mac (for use with CD/PP10
on a Win2000 system), which costs roughly $450 over here in Germany. Is
there any need to get the "DTP" version (which includes an additional
mouse)?
Dominique
judy.tadman
Re the Wacom Mouse. I mentioned in an earlier reply that I have had my
tablet a couple of years and it came with cordless mouse. I have never come
to terms with the cordless mouse. I don't know if it is just me, but I find
it not nearly as sensitive as a standard mouse so therefore never use it. Is
the DTP version more expensive? If it is, I personally would'nt go for it.
Hope this helps
Best wishes,Judynews:3AB4DE63...@circumflex.de...
David Macdonald
says...
> which costs roughly $450 over here in Germany.
You're unlikely to find much better value than Germany for most computer
hardware. I often buy there and ship to England to benefit from German
prices.
> Is
> there any need to get the "DTP" version (which includes an additional
> mouse)?
>
Oh boy! Depends ....... <g>
I am keyboard phobic. I do everything I can with my pen and have
customised PP and DRAW to reflect that.
I use the Wacom mouse. However I would never use it _as_ a mouse. I
agree with Judy's comments there. However it can be configured not to
move the cursor and simply act as a static input device using buttons
only. It has five buttons and a thumbwheel. The thumbwheel can be used
to zoom or as a modifier to create fifteen buttons from the five.
The bottom left corner of my tablet has been mapped to read the mouse. I
just keep it resting there in my left hand and use it's buttons for all
sorts of basic tasks. Shift, Alt, Ctrl modifiers are all on mouse
buttons. I can zoom in and out, and display full screen, without
deselecting or even moving the tool I am using. Undo, redo are there as
well. All with a simple click and without having to take my eyes off the
screen.
It's a method that suits me wonderfully!
It could equally easily drive others screaming up one wall and down the
other.
Horses for courses ..... ;^)
David Mac
K.N.Pepper
> For about a year now, I've been trying to convince my colleagues
> (who DO "free" design for covers and other print stuff) that for
> them, a tablet would do wonders, but they are of the "I have
> everything I need and all that computer stuf makes me crazy
> anyway, thank you" category, so I guess I need to demonstrate a
> tablet's use to them ;)
If they are classically trained artists (drawing, painting,
sculpting, and calligraphy), then they will NOT find the tablet
useful for three reasons. Here are some excerpts from my previous
postings.
WARNING - LONG POST
---------------------
Why the classicist shuns the tablet of today:
(1) Tactile: The stylus on a tablet surface has the feel of a
ballpoint pen on a glass surface - far from the feel of the tooth
(or grain) of paper resisting a nib, felt marker or brush. (The
ballpoint on glass is the extreme in isotropy, a totally undesirable
state, except perhaps in ice skating.)
[Example of what's missing: You put your fountain pen down and drag
it against the grain of the paper. It fights back and produces a
certain type of stroke. Now within the same stroke, you change
direction and the drag increases, so you press down on the nib and
release a little more ink. This lubricates the tip and you finish
the swirl with flair - dry discontinuous and wet continuous strokes
adding to the character of the artwork. The feel of a nib almost
cutting into the paper, a nearly dry brush against a toothy paper,
viscous paint against canvas, and so forth, are very real forces
that influence the overall result.]
(2) TV Weather reporter mode: Much like the weatherman who points to
one area (the blue screen) while looking at another (the monitor off
to the side), the tablet artist draws in one area (tablet surface)
while viewing his strokes in a completely different area (the
monitor). This can be disconcerting, and even when this coordination
is mastered, precise work is well-nigh impossible.
(3) Rotational transducers/gyros - a thing of the future:
Cartoonists, illustrators, and calligrapher rotate the paper to
accommodate the rotational limits of their wrists. (The legendary
Chuck Jones drew on a turntable.) The artist will have a tendency to
tilt or rotate the tablet on his lap to suit the stroke. The picture
on the monitor however remains stationary. (Transducers/gyros would
overcome this limitation.) This results in a stroke that is placed
completely out of place. What was meant to be an eyebrow may end up
as a vertical scar on the forehead. You see, the cursor on the
screen tells you the starting point, but gives you no information on
orientation. To avoid this ambiguity, the artist must always keep
the horizontal edge of his pad parallel to that of the monitor.
(Mr.Jones would Chuck it for this reason alone!)
---------------------
A simple test for ye, who professes to be a Tablet Maestro:
First draw three straight horizontal lines in Draw or Paint using
the graphic tools. (This is not the test.) These are the rulings to
simulate a ruled writing pad. Now, using your Wacom stylus, write
free-flowing text on the lines as you would with a pencil on a pad
on your lap or on the desk. Judge yourself for:
(1) Quality: Are the strokes smooth and continuous? Does it look
like YOUR handwriting? (Or does it look like you might have written
it with your left hand, assuming you are right-handed.)
(2) Orientation: Does the writing follow the ruling and stay within
its allotted space, or does it go off at an angle?
(3) Time: Did it take you about the same time it would have taken
with a pencil on paper, or did you really labour over it? (If the
latter then it may look good, but not be anything like your
handwriting.)
Statistics: Failure rate 10 out of 10. Either the quality is poor,
the orientation is wrong, or it took an inordinate amount of time
to produce marginally acceptable results.
[Note: The reason I no longer ask 'maestros' to draw Beethoven or
a galloping horse is because of the response I normally get, which
is, "Oh, I can't draw." So I've simplified the requirement to
writing a paragraph instead. Of course I've had responses such as,
"Oh, I can't write. I type." The only thing to test then is the
ability to open a clipart file, for which one does not need a good
stylus.]
---------------------
What will make the classicist happy?
The tactile problem in (1) will not have a solution for decades to
come. The weatherman problem in (2) and the rotational problem in
(3) can be solved with money, thus:
WACOM PL400 LCD Pen Tablet System, 10.7"x8":
"Draw, sketch, annotate, construct, outline, enhance, navigate and
erase displayed content directly on the LCD screen as you would with
pen and paper."
List price: US$3000
---------------------
What is the 'affordable' tablet good for?
Drawing - NO! (We're not talking about straight lines, rectangles
and ellipses.)
Photo-retouching - Emphatic YES!
---------------------
About the irascible author:
KNP is a cartoonist and an ultra-realistic illustrator. His work has
appeared in the trashcans of leading publishers around the globe.
His $700 tablet provides excellent support for a cactus pot. His $3
tablet (Aspirin) fulfills his remaining needs, along with a light
table, an assortment of nibs, brushes, inks, a very large eraser and
a high-end scanner.
---------------------
Best regards,
K.N.Pepper
Cricket
set the sensitivity. I haven't found the sweet spot yet...it'll just take
some time. <g> There's also the timing thing for the double-click vs
two-clicks for editing (like in the file dialogs...double click opens the
file, two consecutive clicks puts the filename in edit mode). This is a
Windows setting for the interval. I have to adjust that as well as the
graphire timing to get them in sync.
Cricket
C_Tech Volunteer
"David Macdonald" <dm...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.151eb46a1...@cnews.corel.ca...
Bill Whelan
> His $3 tablet (Aspirin) fulfills his remaining needs
Great pain reliever for some. :))
I have a 6X8 Wacom, but rarely use it anymore.
My right hand has developed the shakes and
the pen is very difficult to use under those
circumstances. My mouse takes up the slack
and my hand is made smooth with the added
weight.
When I paint, I slow my mouse speed down to
a crawl. Otherwise it's wound up tight for normal
use (like its owner).
I use and wear out about 50 mouse pads in a year.
"Clean mouse once a week." My wife's cat once
had fleas! They nested in my mouse, making
movements quite unruly.
So if you have fury animals at home and
your mouse is jumpy, check for fleas. <g>
To each his/her own.
Bill W.
--
PHOTO-PAINT 9 to 10 Script Converter
http://www.vakcer.com/oberon/products/pp9-10cnv/index.htm)
Twieker
Interesting post .. I was inspired to remember that I had a second
Graphire lying around unused, and decided to try connecting both ...
Somewhat amazed to find out that it actually works. Now to find a use
for it ! :) (The Graphire mouse, which I normally don't use BTW,
doesn't have quite so many buttons, and I haven't found out yet whether
you can assign useful functions to the buttons).
Huib
Cricket
me but with practice I'll get better. I've been using a mouse for 12 years
so I guess it's okay to need some adjustment time?
Sylvia
"David Macdonald" <dm...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.151ee5b16...@cnews.corel.ca...
> In article <3AB4BAE2...@pamspress.com>, webm...@pamspress.com
> says...
> > Hold the pen (if right handed) with the button at 9:00. You can rest
the pen on
> > your middle finger and slide your thumb up to click the button.
> >
>
David Macdonald
place he's hot, in this post, is under the collar.
He seeks an electronic equivalent of pen or brush on paper. He dismisses
the slate as a poor substitute. True. I can't pretend otherwise. His
attitude is equivalent to saying there's no point in considering frozen
vegetables because thay are no real substitute for fresh. Again quite
right. But what he misses is that they're still better than no veg at
all.
If you seek the true tactile sensation of pen on paper, brush on
canvass, hands on clay, then go sketch, or paint, or sculpt and forget
about computers.
If you are going to create your images electronically, then give
yourself the best electronic tools you can find. A slate may not have
the tactile excitement of traditional artists tools (no _may_ about it
actually - it _doesn't_), but it is still a quantum leap forward from
the mouse. It's the best anyone has come up with yet. The fact that it
is not ideal is no reason to be so dogmaticaly dismissive.
Let us take his points one by one.
1) He is right ... to a degree. But if that's how he feels why is he
bothering with a computer at all? Why not just draw and then scan if he
needs electronic platforms for distribution or whatever. It'a a somewhat
churlish "if you won't play by my rules I won't play at all" attitude
that is rather more reminiscent of ostriches in sand that digital
creativity.
2) He obviously suffers more coordination problems that most of the
professional graphics world, where professional graphic artists are
being precise with slates as a matter of course every day of the week.
Personally I have no problems. His argument has as much validity as the
idea that you can't type without looking at the keys. We all know that's
nonsense. He's simply unprepared to make the effort.
3) Now this is an interesting and utterly valid point. We are all
familar with turning the paper, or whatever, as we work to best
accommodate the easiest and most natural drawing movements. But that
still doesn't mean to say there's nothing can be done. I turn my body as
I work at the slate to approach it from different angles. There are
times when I am tempted to turn the slate itself like a sheet of paper.
This doesn't help much because the monitor remains static. However this
is not an insuperable problem, it just requires a degree of cool
practice that doesn't sit comfortably with hot blooded members of the
genus capsicum.
Be not swayed or discouraged by classicists who eschew modern life and
technology ... it would be a contradiction for them to do otherwise.
Poor things.
David Mac
PS Lest some of you think me too harsh. Mr. P. Mento and I have a long
history. He won't be offended. (Well not too much)
BTW I've had my suspicions for some time. But I _definitely_ know who
you are now Mr. Hal. A. Peno. You used that rather cynical 'ball point
on a mirror' phrase many moons ago under a different name.
But .... if you don't tell .... I won't ......
David Macdonald
> Yeah, that's how I do it (hey, I'm doing something right). Still awkward for
> me but with practice I'll get better. I've been using a mouse for 12 years
> so I guess it's okay to need some adjustment time?
>
evangelist in me. You should see my distinguished grey/white quiff!
Mind you .... I'm still hoping for the Rolls Royce and hundred choir
girls.
0:^)
David Mac
David Macdonald
> (like in the file dialogs...double click opens the
> file, two consecutive clicks puts the filename in edit mode).
>
David mac
Bill Whelan
> BTW I've had my suspicions for some time. But I _definitely_ know who
> you are now Mr. Hal. A. Peno.
That was his "Pen Name"! <LOL>
Cricket
Cricket
C_Tech Volunteer
"David Macdonald" <dm...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.151f41a31...@cnews.corel.ca...
Graeme Standage
>
>BTW I've had my suspicions for some time.........
After starting to appear here, one very sad person has for sometime still occasionaly looked at the
User Log in the other place to see if they could find a certain lurker. Name changes and all
that.... <g>
Of course, we could always be wrong ;-)
Back to the pills.
I think you are both right - depends on what angle you approach the use of from (hey, I can say this
having never used one!).
Bitmap manipulation and retouching does not require 'feel' to the extent of creative freehand
drawing, if your informative years in the field of cartooning/illustrating has been computer less
(or tablet free) I can see why a tablet is second best and will remain so. Besides, IMHO the
computer will still not capture the style and output 'texture' that one can create with a pen in the
hand on paper. Create an illustration on paper, create an illustration on the computer and find a
way to output to try and match the paper one (use the same artist that is just as competant in the
use of each different media types) Can't prove this, but I'd bet the concensus would be that the
original on paper is the winner.
The repro house I mentioned that specialise in copying original paintings and producing limited
edition copies. Don't think you will find any place better at doing this. Look at the print in
isolation and they do look ------ good. Compare with the original side by side and the colour etc.
will be 99.999% right, as I say you will not get better, but still does not have the right feel.
Photographs/bitmaps etc. do not come under the same type of thing as this art, they are mechanical,
a different *feel*.
I'd love someone to point out and show me some illustrations done on a computer that don't look as
if they are, where you can see the stroke behaviour, how the *ink* behaves in interacting
differently with the 'paper' from when the pen hits the paper, to drawing the stroke and lifting
away. The naturalness of the odd ink blotch - you know what I mean, and yes, this is going over the
top.....probably <g>
Upto 3 years ago I used to know one of the cartoonists that used to do 'Garth' (amongst others) as
well as story boarding for films. Felt the same way as 'you know who'!
Give it a few more years and reference points will have changed, most if not all commercial
illustration will be done on computer. Times change, as in the way I lament falling standards in
typography, still photography (because computer manipulation comes into play) and those prepared to
go the extra mile for no gain except personal satisfaction. Oh heck, this is moving away from where
it started and back to the archived messages.
--
Graeme
Graeme Standage
>
>So if you have fury animals at home and
>your mouse is jumpy, check for fleas.
I have to check for biscuit and /or bread crumbs. Now, where did I leave that diet sheet.......
--
Graeme
Dominique Toussaint
Frankly, when I switched from mouse to trackball, not the least
important reason was that you can clean those Logitech trackballs (no
others will do!) so easily. Hmmm... maybe it was THE most important
reason. That greasy pizza really is the deat of mice (*especially* the
cheese - weird world, eh?).
@Pepper:
I see that a tablet can't replace "the real thing" (read: brush, pencil,
crayon..). Me, however, I'm a homo digitalis, anyway, and the computer
is not my conversion but my creation tool. I shun all methods of
transforming images to digital works when there's is a possiblility to
do them on the screen from the beginning. Well, (I'm a geek turned web
designer, what do you expect?). The possibilities of drawing exact lines
and curves for me outweigh the loss of indiviadual style of my few not
THAT perfect drawings :) So I see the added possibility of applying
pressure to have more "natural" strokes as a kind of "extended effect
filter" or the like, and from what I read, the tablets are good enough
for that.
Dominique
Cricket
colors from Painter output on watercolor Epson paper that it's very very
very difficult to tell is not the 'real' thing. The brushes can interact
with the 'paper' texture, and you can move paint around and it interacts
with what else you've already laid down.
The really nice thing about using Painter is that you can emulate natural
media almost perfectly yet still be able to mix in all the tools and
trickery that are so nice about computer art if you wish. And water color
doesn't dry 'til you tell it to! <g>
Cricket
C_Tech Volunteer
"Graeme Standage" <gst...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:3ab53d85...@cnews.corel.ca...
K.N.Pepper
Why is the Tablet the basis of a religion? (Stay out of this,
Moses.)
What I'm going through is the Galilean experience all over again,
in reverse:
Thesis: The sun has spots.
Evidence: Telescope, adequately filtered, is pointed at the sun and
the people are invited to look.
Response: No, I will not. < Huff of disdain! > The sun is perfect!
I said "in reverse". My contention, based on empirical evidence is
that the tablet is not suited to drawing. I have invited my learned
colleagues to show me some evidence to the contrary. All I get is
the sacred chant. You know (for I have said it to you on several
occasions) that I admire your work. But by your own admission, you
don't draw (because you can't). Yet you continue to debate this
point. You see, if I'm shown a single piece of tight, realistic, and
strong rendition that I would approve for publication, I'd be
willing to revisit the infernal holy relic for a seventh time. (Had
I not seen that it is humanly possible to play beautiful music on
that incredibly alien instrument called a guitar, I would not have
learnt to play it.)
Here's my in-line response, in line with the rules of scholarly
conduct, to some of your points and blunts:
> His attitude is equivalent to saying there's no point in
> considering frozen vegetables because thay are no real substitute
> for fresh. Again quite right. But what he misses is that they're
> still better than no veg at all.
There is no point to frozen vegetables if I have constant access
to fresh imported ones. By the way, I don't even like frozen ice.
> If you seek the true tactile sensation of pen on paper, brush on
> canvass, hands on clay, then go sketch, or paint, or sculpt and
> forget about computers.
I do, and my audience loves it. But why do you ask me to forget this
quad-Xeon here? It prints invoices at blinding speed, which makes it
possible to acquire the LCD tablet I had mentioned earlier.
> A slate may not have the tactile excitement of traditional
> artists tools (no _may_ about it actually - it _doesn't_), but it
> is still a quantum leap forward from the mouse. It's the best
> anyone has come up with yet. The fact that it is not ideal is no
> reason to be so dogmaticaly dismissive.
Just because it's the best anyone has come up with is no reason to
exaggerate its virtues. But I'm sure X-ray bombardment for radiant
health was defended with equal zeal when it was in vogue. (I however
would have seen right through it. Call it X-ray vision if you like.)
Look, I never argued against the pen in support of the mouse. It's
easy to be better than a mouse (a popular feline belief). But what
you are doing is equivalent to singing high praise for mud because
it isn't as offensive as a cow relic. Is it really as fragrant as
the rose you make it out to be? (And as for my being dogmatic -
I think you're barking up the wrong tree.)
> Why not just draw and then scan if he needs electronic platforms
> for distribution or whatever. It'a a somewhat churlish "if you
> won't play by my rules I won't play at all" attitude that is
> rather more reminiscent of ostriches in sand that digital
> creativity.
Funny you should call me a churl. MSWord's spell checker used to
suggest "Churl" as a replacement for my name (no lie). And we know
how reliable, nay, infallible they are. Draw and scan? That is
indeed what I do. Am I alone in this? Look at the Corel clipart
collection, search out the three most exquisite illustration and
zoom in. They are scans, followed by software embellishments. As to
"reminiscent of ostriches", it's more like meerkats, always upright
and on the lookout for new and BETTER ways of doing things, and also
on the lookout for DavidMac-iavellian ostriches. (That was just a
bad joke. Read nothing in it.)
> He obviously suffers more coordination problems that most of the
> professional graphics world, where professional graphic artists
> are being precise with slates as a matter of course every day of
> the week.
Drawing, painting, calligraphy, playing a musical instrument, and
engaging in competitive athletics (younger days, now all I have left
is athlete's foot as proof) - not bad for a person with poor
coordination. It wasn't easy. (Blind too, but that didn't stop
astronomy. Insomnia helped.)
> Personally I have no problems.
But you don't draw, so naturally, no problems. I too have no
problems with the tablet when I'm not drawing with it.
> Be not swayed or discouraged by classicists who eschew modern life
> and technology ... it would be a contradiction for them to do
> otherwise.
Here I sit with my latest development, the MACROwave Freezer that
can make ice cream under two minutes and am I being hailed as a
great innovator? Nooooooo! Seriously, when I wrote "Vectorial
Colour Analysis & Synthesis (1974), I thought I was laying some of
the ground work for the various "modern" art tools and amenities you
enjoy.
> BTW I've had my suspicions for some time. But I _definitely_ know
> who you are now Mr. Hal. A. Peno. You used that rather cynical
> 'ball point on a mirror' phrase many moons ago under a different
> name.
What took you so long? Yes ladies and gentlemen, I was known as
Pran K. Star, aka S. Rindsberg, aka a host of expletives deleted out
of consideration for the readers. Seriously though, I am none of
those people. (I haven't even been myself lately.) I simply have the
memory of a ... er, one of those big creatures, who by the way would
prefer a tablet over a mouse any day.
I notice you elected not to comment on the solution I offered, an
expensive one I admit, and also my "emphatic YES" to one real
application of the tablet. I will assume you are not in vehement
disagreement.
Note to Dominique: There's nothing David can say or do to offend me,
for I greatly respect and admire this despicable fellow - a scholar
who never tires of being wrong. Heck, I'm even thinking of visiting
him this summer. (Now let him lose some sleep!)
Best regards,
K.N.Pepper
Bob Friedman
A sincere thank you, I am truly enjoying this ongoing literary
adventure.
Bob
K.N.Pepper
> I shun all methods of transforming images to digital works when
> there's is a possiblility to do them on the screen from the
> beginning.
If my thesis made any sense to you then yes, while it's "possible",
the probability of its occurrence is vanishingly small. But heck, I
don't know how stringent your requirements are or how keen your
aesthetic senses might be - so go ahead and take the plunge. It's
only a few hundred dollars, and well worth the first-hand education.
I'm sure you have a qualified art director who will do the QA on
what is finally presented to the public. No risk there.
Few amongst us have Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin's gift of doing thought
experiments outside one's experience (and being right). Most of us
must burn a finger to understand what high temperature is.
Good luck.
K.N.Pepper
Dominique Toussaint
No need to get upset at all - it's just a new edition of that old
discussion which has taken place x-thousend times in history:
- First, artisans and artists strive to eliminate all natural errors and
inaccuracies in their works
- Some of them reach a level of craftsmanship which is called by others
"perfection", although - since we all are humans - the results are not
"perfect" at all, it's just that the inaccuracies are seen not as
contra-productive irritations but as "part of the art".
- A new technology is developed, rendering several older techniques
superfluous: the new art is "more perfect".
- Since this takes away some aspects which had (in *some* skilled
artist's work!) been considered art (the inaccuracies), some critics
say, the new technology couldn't be "as good", which is exactly wrong:
The new technology is *too* good.
So one can't really say some technology is "better" or "worse". What
*can* be said if it more prone to flaws - which, in the hand of an
artist, can be high arts.
K.N., what you are calling for is the simulation of natural flaws - by
it's very nature (pun not intended) the more "unnatural" a technology
is, the more successful it is in *avoiding* these. Obviously, it's a
hard task to first eliminate the flaws, only to simulate these in a
latter step :)
In the near future, we will laugh about this, anyway: The sensitive
High-Res screens (let's say 19200 x 19200 pixels) in combination with
force-feedback pens using 65536 pressure levels we will see in a few
years should come quite close to natural drawing tools... *if* so
desired.
Dominique
K.N.Pepper
> After starting to appear here, one very sad person has for
> sometime still occasionaly looked at the User Log in the other
> place to see if they could find a certain lurker. Name changes
> and all that.... <g>
What is the 'User Log' of which you speak? Let me know and I will
try to help you locate this character.
> Upto 3 years ago I used to know one of the cartoonists that used
> to do 'Garth' (amongst others) as well as story boarding for
> films. Felt the same way as 'you know who'!
You knew the artist who drew Garth? The vintage Garth? Wow!
I have met Dave Berg of Mad Magazine, and I once saw Chuck Jones at
a celebration in his honour. Can't think of any others. (Had dinner
with the man who discovered Pluto. The planet, not the dog silly!)
Regards,
K.N.Pepper
K.N.Pepper
> No need to get upset at all ...
I'm having a time of my life. I abhor myths, misconceptions, and
misunderstandings. I'm in my element when I'm attempting to
eradicate them.
> what you are calling for is the simulation of natural flaws
Au contraire, my friend. My work is far from perfect, so after
scanning it I spend time using software to remove as many defects
as the allotted time will permit. I detest defects for I am a
perfectionist. And that is why the tablet in its present state
simply will not do. It is too crude in concept, design and
implementation. My contention and the only point I am trying to make
is simple beyond belief, and yet I am unable to convey it clearly.
(Perhaps because of the verbiage that has had to be invoked to
address the many natural corollaries of the issue).
It is:
(i) I can't draw from start to finish with the common tablet.
(ii) I have not seen anything done this way that even remotely
approaches what I would consider marginally acceptable.
(iii) I have implored people to show me something that would
convince me otherwise. So far, no success.
> In the near future, we will laugh about this, anyway: The
> sensitive High-Res screens (let's say 19200 x 19200 pixels) in
> combination with force-feedback pens using 65536 pressure levels
> we will see in a few years should come quite close to natural
> drawing tools... *if* so desired.
I don't doubt it for a second. However, no one should delude
him/herself into thinking it's already here.
Regards,
K.N.Pepper
Graeme Standage
>...have at look at Painter. It's amazing.<
That did in fact cross my mind, it was about version one when I last heard about it. Thought I'd
forget about it for this thread in the hope it might not be THAT good <g>
> And water color
>doesn't dry 'til you tell it to!
Wow!
Bottom line though is IMHO Corel is not this capable so a slate is pointless. If you are talking
bitmaps and re-touching/manipulation or more basic 'creation' then a slate has great value. It's the
dividing line between where the opposed combatants stand ;-)
--
Graeme
Bill Whelan
> Most of us must burn a finger to understand what high temperature is.
Some of us have a high tolerance to pain. <g>
If nothing else, this has made us think more of
what a computer graphics tablet should or shouldn't
do.
An improvement might be to have the ability to change
the surface of a tablet. That would be great for strong
arms like myself.
Your slate is wiped clean, Mr. Pepper, and as always;
we wish you much success.
Kind regards,
Bill W.
If I'm going to be a starving artist; let me do it my way.
David Macdonald
says...
> So if you have fury animals ...
Don't you mean furry?
Mind you I do have a fury animal at home ....
... but she says she still loves me.
David Mac
Anyway I'm sittng the rest of this thread out. Sometimes it's nice to
sling a big fat stone in the water and then sit and watch the ripples
spread.
David Macdonald
> I abhor myths, misconceptions, and
> misunderstandings. I'm in my element when I'm attempting to
> eradicate them.
>
>
will realise that he keeps a personal dictionary. Let me just look up
eradicate ... Ah .. here we are o - b - f - u - s - c - a - ......
David Mac
K.N.Pepper
> ...he keeps a personal dictionary. Let me just look up eradicate
> ... Ah .. here we are o - b - f - u - s - c - a - ......
I was wondering why the simplest of points were eluding you. Then I
remembered.
========================
Ladies and Gentlemen,
David started a thread called "For the Optically Challenged" in the
paint 9 section in which he confessed:
"Being hard of sight ... I have gone dual head!"
We went on to learn in that thread that he places one of the two
monitors, the one that displays text, behind him. This he views in
a rear view mirror. Is it any wonder he is getting everything
backwards?
========================
David, now that I know your problem, I think I know how to
communicate with you. As a test, try reading the following
out loud using your mirror setup. Are you with me?
-------
I
A
M
W
I
T
H
Y
O
U
-------
K.N.Pepper
K.N.Pepper
> An improvement might be to have the ability to change the surface
> of a tablet. That would be great for strong arms like myself.
Years ago Debbie suggested taping different types of paper to the
tablet surface and experimenting. I got excellent tactile results,
but the reduced sensitivity would force me to press down really
hard, gouging the plastic overlay. Perhaps newer Wacoms are more
sensitive. (I believe David alluded to the increased sensitivity.)
I have an extremely light touch. As a matter of fact my pencil
seldom touches the paper, often relying on graphite vapour alone.
> If I'm going to be a starving artist; let me do it my way.
By all means, but don't starve on an empty stomach.
Regards,
K.N.Pepper
Cricket
Cricket
C_Tech Volunteer
Bill Whelan
> By all means, but don't starve on an empty stomach.
How good of you to care! ;-)
Thanks,
Bill W.
David Macdonald
dm...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
Try this Monday swimming pool ban.
NOW NO
SWIMS
ON MON
.... standing on your head ....
.... the way you do most of your reasoning.
;^)
David Mac
David Macdonald
Oh you devious boy! You used only symmetric letters which read the same
in my mirror.
David Mac
David Macdonald
> Years ago Debbie suggested taping different types of paper to the
> tablet surface and experimenting.
Funnily enough my Calcomp slate actually has a textured plastic.
Presumably for this reason.
Can't say it works though ... <g>
David Mac
David Macdonald
> Did you create that? I wouldn't be surprised. Bl**dy clever!
>
>
Regretfully no. I can't remember who did. I saw it ages ago in, I think,
a go in a Martin Gardner book.
I have a frantic week this week, so I won't have time to delve deeper at
present.
David Mac
David Macdonald
VERY impressive!
David Mac
Cricket
"K.N.Pepper" <knpe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ab690d9_1@cnews...
> David offered:
>
> > Try this Monday swimming pool ban.
> >
> > NOW NO
> > SWIMS
> > ON MON
>
> > .... standing on your head ....
>
> > .... the way you do most of your reasoning.
>
>
> Excellent 'Inversion', David. Simply breathtaking, and not because
> I'm in the middle of my Yoga exercises.
>
> Did you create that? I wouldn't be surprised. Bl**dy clever!
>
> I have to share my inversion with you, a nameplate I did for my lady
> for her birthday, attached.
>
> [For those who don't know: Inversion is a name coined by the
> distinguished calligrapher Scott Kim for a calligraphic art form
> he developed. I have quantified three basic types, which I have
> named...(now where's that paper of mine?), Ah, (1) Rotational, such
> as the one David and I have posted, (2) Fade, and (3) Interstitial.
> If anyone's interested, we can pursue it in a separate thread.]
>
> Regards,
>
> K.N.Pepper
>
>
>
>
Doug Walkey
performance in the Painter Classic program that came with it but i was not
impressed with PhotoPaint's performance. That is... until I figured out that in
PP9 the pressure sensitive setup (under Tools/Options) does not work reliably.
AND that you need to set up each brush, in the docker, for the pen and eraser.
For PP9 I used the graphire set up program and left the Corel setup to fend for
itself. The more I used it with the brushes the smarter (more set up) they got.
Now in PP10 the Corel set up works (!) as it should and each brush still needs
its own setup. Once you've used them they seem to stay set up, even if you
revert to mouse for a while.
I've found I can do lots of things I couldn't do effectively with a mouse. The
Graphire mouse languishes hidden in a drawer though. If I"m using the pen, I
need to stick wi th the pen in the program or I get even more ham fisted than
usual.
...Doug
Graeme Standage
>What is the 'User Log' of which you speak? <
Need to still be using old Wincim software when entering the appropriate forum, don't know wether
more recent versions have that feature. Lists the names and times of visitors.
>You knew the artist who drew Garth? <
One of them <g>
>The vintage Garth?
No and yes.
Talking here of 'Garth' that appeared regularly in the Daily Mirror (now 'The Mirror' - don't know
if 'Garth' still appears).
By vintage Garth I assume you mean the likes of Frank Bellamy who was originaly involved with 'Dan
Dare' etc. illustrators/cartoonists of that calibur.
No, sad though it is as with alot of things it is not always the same artist that is called upon,
it's more a case of 'small bands' of cartoonists doing the strips, but all attributed to the same
person when appearing.
A bit like some of the horse tipsters in the national newspapers (this was discussed on the radio
the other day). Can not remember which paper or the name of the tipster off hand, but if he was for
real he would have celebrated his 107th birthday by now!!.
I seem to be typing alot of posts recently where I say 'can't remember' and containing many stupid
spelling errors. Think I need a holiday. But again I can't remember off hand the surname of the chap
I knew, his christian name was Martin. To say friend was probably a bit strong, but we used to meet
a few times a year at social gatherings, talk on the phone occasionaly. He was a good mate of my old
boss (where I now rent my photo studio space) - they were at art college together.
--
Graeme
Cricket
results with size vs pressure sometimes) but I can't get it to work in
Photopaint 9 at all. All it does is paint one big blob that covers the
entire image. I tried the F8 trick as others (and I, even <g>) have
suggested in the past to cure it, but it still happens.
Cricket
C_Tech Volunteer
"Doug Walkey" <wal...@agric.gov.ab.ca> wrote in message
news:3AB775B6...@agric.gov.ab.ca...
David Macdonald
> All it does is paint one big blob that covers the
> entire image. I tried the F8 trick as others (and I, even <g>) have
> suggested in the past to cure it, but it still happens.
>
>
I never figured what it was. I never thought to relate it to pressure
though - hmmm - interesting.
David Mac
K.N.Pepper
> But again I can't remember off hand the surname of the chap
> I knew, his christian name was Martin.
According to my most excellent Comic Book Encyclopaedia,
Steve Dowling started Garth in 43,
John Allard took over in 57,
Frank Bellamy took over in 71.
(I found this last fact rather incredible considering Bellamy's
vintage.)
There was no mention of Martin XXX. If you ever recall his surname,
let me know.
> I seem to be typing alot of posts recently where I say 'can't
> remember' and containing many stupid spelling errors. Think I
> need a holiday.
You've contributed a lot in the last ..., heck, as far back as I can
remember. Our good fortune, but tiring as heck for you I'm sure.
Take that well-deserved holiday. I'll cover for you. I'll even sign
your name (in the tradition of comic book attribution), but there's
no guarantee they'll still want you when you get back.
By the way, thanks for all you've given.
Regards,
K.N.Pepper