Design Certif.Did not express myself correctly!
Gina Walton
By the responses I received I must not have explained myself correctly I
was looking into Graphic Design schools in America and they want me to learn
Illustrator to take the courses. I already know Draw and photopaint and DO
NOT want to learn these programs in order to take the courses. I was
looking for an American based school with online courses that allow you to
choose your tools.
Gina
Michael Cervantes
Gina, many moons ago when I was studying at the Southern Institute of
Business and Technology in Dallas, we used all the applications available at
that time PC and Mac. At that moment the school didn't know what application
or OS was going to prevail, so teachers assign tasks and we can use the
application and OS we please. DRAW, Illustrator, Designer, Page Maker, etc.
I remember that I preferred Designer, and Page Maker during those years, but
I also used Ventura Publisher running in DOS. When I arrived to Puerto Rico
in 1992, my budget choice was PC and DRAW 2. Apple and related applications
did cost a fortune, thank that I studied in the right school I survived as a
freelancer.
I don't think it is a good policy to force future Graphic Designers to use
one tool or another. Years, ago I wrote to RGB Publish Magazine because they
said that finally Corel DRAW was a professional application, and the reason
was DRAW 8 Mac version.
I know an illustrator that during almost thirty years has been placing food
in his table as an illustrator, and he don't know how to turn a computer on.
My question to RGB was. Is this illustrator a professional?
If your school is pushing you to learn only one application, then it is not
a good school.
I remember years ago jumping from Photoshop to PhotoPaint every time a new
version shows up. We should select our tools, the school should teach us
graphics.
One of the best Carlos Segura poster is based in a smashed cockroach he
found in his house basement. Is this cockroach a professional tool? Ask your
school principal if you can use smached cuckroaches in your classroom?
Regards
--
Michael Cervantes
C-Tech Volunteer
--
Michael Cervantes
C-Tech Volunteer
Jim Hart [C_Tech]
In article <3cc74b79_3@cnews>, gin...@earthlink.net says...
>By the responses I received I must not have explained myself correctly I
>was looking into Graphic Design schools in America and they want me to learn
>Illustrator to take the courses.
>
And the point of the responses is that those schools you
described appear to be software schools, not design schools.
Good design doesn't require any software at all. OTOH, online
courses in any subject are likely to be highly oriented towards
computers as a teaching tool and that does require software. If
a particular application is required, then I would suspect you
will be taught how to use the software and they will call what
you learn to do with that software "graphic design."
As to where to find an actual design school, I'm afraid I don't
know what is out there these days. I would start by looking for
a classroom situation as opposed to online.
--
Jim Hart www.microtecniqs.com
Resident Curmudgeon,
The Ventura Summit
July 13-15, Kansas City
www.vpsummit.com
Jim Hart [C_Tech]
In article <3cc75601$1_3@cnews>, mcde...@tld.net says...
> Ask your
>school principal if you can use smached cuckroaches in your classroom?
>
She's trying to learn graphic design, not punk rock. <g>
Gina Walton
So the answer is no you don't know of any courses that are reputable that
teach graphic design online, cause unfortunately guys I can't do a classroom
right now in my life maybe in 4-5 years. Thanks for your help anyway.
Gina
"Jim Hart [C_Tech]" <ct...@corel.ca> wrote in message
news:MPG.173112de2...@cnews.corel.com...
Steve Rindsberg
> > Ask your
> >school principal if you can use smached cuckroaches in your classroom?
>
> She's trying to learn graphic design, not punk rock. <g>
>
So long as we haven't wandered into some avant garde cooking class by
mistake, it's fine with me.
Gigi
>From one Gina to another . . .
If you're homeschooling, sounds like you've got a full-time plus job
already! (good for you, by the way!) You don't have time to be learning
the world of graphic design!! :<)
It seems that the emphasis everywhere (especially with all the online
schools) is learning the "medium" (and getting the degree or certificate)
and not developing the "art". There are tons of graphics program *users*
that are not *artists* in the least bit! (myself included.) What good is
that?
The real value of any design is in the development of the *art* of the
design - that is what gives true value to any program or tool or skill.
I say, wait 4-5 years, and then spend some time in a classroom or one-on-one
with somebody who can really teach the "art." Learning the "art" is what
will allow any program or tool you use to be valuable.
It'll be worth the wait. That's why it's called art, it takes time to craft
the skill!
Gigi
"Gina Walton" <gin...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3cc75fdd_2@cnews...
Steve Rindsberg
post in a way, Gina.
You originally said something about how it shouldn't matter which brand of
pencil or charcoal you use, so long as the results are beautiful. The
replies seem to be saying the same thing; that if your brand of charcoal
happens to be Corel, it shouldn't matter, so long as the results are good.
They go further and suggest that if the brand of charcoal/software is so
all-important to the school, then the school might be more concerned
teaching the software than design. Could be, could be.
On the other hand, there's something to be said for standardization. Bring
in a charcoal drawing, everybody has the same brand of eyes to look at it
with. Bring in a Corel Draw file and if everybody else in the class uses
Illustrator ... Houston, we have a problem.
For that reason, I can understand why the instructors would want to
standardize on one program. While it might, as suggested, be because they
spend too much time on software and not enough on design, it might also be
because they want to spend *less* time diddling about with unfamiliar tools
and more on design.
Were it my decision, I'd look for the best design school I could find. If
they insisted on Illustrator (which I hate with a lava-like passion <g>) I'd
grit my teeth and live with it, learn the design end of things, then go on
to apply my design skills in Draw at the earliest opportunity. Maybe have
me a little Illo-burning party after graduation. ;-)
A good designer will make good design, no matter which tools they have to
use.
A bad designer, no matter how good the tools .... you know where this ends
up, right? ,-)
--
Steve Rindsberg [C_Tech]
http://www.rdpslides.com
Gina Walton <gin...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3cc74b79_3@cnews...
Michael Cervantes
There are tons of graphics program *users*
> that are not *artists* in the least bit! (myself included.) What good is
> that?
Well, here we have a concept and name problem. Graphic Artist, Graphic
Designers, and Desktop Publishers, are Commercial Artist. Fine Art is
another matter. In today computerized world you don't need to be an artist
to become a Commercial Artist, and many good Fine Art Artist are very bad
Commercial Artist. Architect and Industrial designers are Commercial
Designer, because the purpose is to sale a product. Budgets, clients
requirements, objective, etc. are facts limiting free art creation.
I see many commercial artist talking about their style. It doesn't exit in
commercial art. Our objective is to create an artistic concept with sales
purposes. We should organize information in a way that keep customers
attention and provoke leads to sale, and we have artistic facts as
reference points. Advertisement doesn't sale, it provoke leads for salesman
to sale. Of course if you know how to use those artistic facts, and tools,
you will be a good commercial artist.
May be I wrong, but that is the way I see the concept. What do you think?
Gigi
"Michael Cervantes" <mcde...@tld.net> wrote in message
news:3cc8168f_1@cnews...
>
> In today computerized world you don't need to be an artist
> to become a Commercial Artist,
You are exactly correct! Commercial Artists do not need to be *artistic*!
My objective here is certainly not to offend any commercial artists - they
fill a much needed role! But, if you are not pursuing commercial artistry
as a career, than it should be said that computers are not a replacement for
some level of creative design, either. Certainly you could agree with me
that the typical commercial artist would benefit (or at least it wouldn't
hurt!) from an equal emphasis on the artistic and not only the required
computer programs, per se? My view would emphasize a balance of the two,
which would bring out the best in any program or tool that is used. You
know what I mean?
> and many good Fine Art Artist are very bad
> Commercial Artist.
You are correct again! Fine artists tend to muck the straight-forward stuff
up, don't they?! My suggestion here is that our "instant gratification"
("give it to me, and give it to me quick") society, (whether fast food
joints or online programs designed to get you the
required-credits-and-no-more in as easy a fashion as possible, with as
little effort as possible) tend to minimize the role of actual artistry or
ability, whether they intend to or not. (I don't know if all online
programs are like this, but some certainly are.) Everyone kinda figures
that since you can now be *creative* with clipart on the computer, than you
are now a some kind of graphics artist! Well, not exactly!
>Architect and Industrial designers are Commercial
> Designer, because the purpose is to sale a product. Budgets, clients
> requirements, objective, etc. are facts limiting free art creation.
Believe me, I know that the deciding factor of most design work is BUDGET!!
True creatvity can do nice work even with small tools . . . but of course,
better tools absolutely enhance any nice work!! I am not endorsing "free
art creation" with no boundaries or computer training or responsibility:
There must be a balance. There certainly is a place for very well trained
designers that can use programs to make the "goods" sellable.
>
> I see many commercial artist talking about their style. It doesn't exit in
> commercial art. Our objective is to create an artistic concept with sales
> purposes. We should organize information in a way that keep customers
> attention and provoke leads to sale, and we have artistic facts as
> reference points. Advertisement doesn't sale, it provoke leads for
salesman
> to sale.
> Of course if you know how to use those artistic facts, and tools,
> you will be a good commercial artist.
I agree Michael! I certainly always appreciate the guidance you give in
this newsgroup, and am glad that you are willing to help this little Corel
fledgling along!
My original statements were meant to encourage Gina Walton in her quest for
good schooling in this arena. There are many different directions that a
person can go with graphic design schooling, all of which have their place.
I simply wanted to emphasize waiting until the best educational opportunity
came along.
But to just pursue graphic design "because graphics are cool, and hey, I
have a scanner, too!" as opposed to having a little skill in the area of
design, might not be exactly rewarding. But then again, maybe so!
Boy I never realized that I was this opinionated!
: )
Gigi
Bob Friedman
Hi Michael,
I agree with you. Concept is in your head, software gives you the tools
to communicate it. You cannot learn how to think and dream. What you got is
what you got.
Learn the software and play.
--
Bob
<visit us anytime at>
www.pamspress.com
"Michael Cervantes" <mcde...@tld.net> wrote in message
news:3cc8168f_1@cnews...
>
Mr. Bill
KNPepper wrote:
> [Image]
<ROTFLOL>
Exactly 10 insects on your 10 palette,
but where's the Cockroach?
Mr. Bill
Gigi
Nice, Very Nice!
But, Mr. Bill is right: where's the cockroach?
Gigi
"KNPepper" <KNPe...@redir.qlmedia.com> wrote in message
news:3cc85554$1_3@cnews...
>
> Michael enquired:
>
> > Is this cockroach a professional tool?
>
> To some, yes. See attached.
>
> K.N.Pepper
> [To thwack privately, replace "meal" with "mail" in address.]
>
>
>
>
Michael Cervantes
>
> You are exactly correct! Commercial Artists do not need to be *artistic*!
They don't need to be fine art oriented, but they should have artistic
qualities, and creative necessity. Also a big amount of experience, and
knowledge is required. School or personal teacher is an excellent add-on
that can provide about 25% of the required knowledge, specially to start up.
The rest is auto-studies, experience, time. Until here we have a standard
Commercial Artist, but if in top of that the person has talent, and an
imperious necessity to create, then we will have an excellent Commercial
Artist. Fine art background is also a great add-on.
About the design certificate it is good to have it, but it doesn't provide
jobs resources. Few month ago, Nestle Food Service Department push its
agency to subcontract the design part to me. When I went to my first meting
with this agency, I didn't bring my portfolio or diplomas. When they asked
about it. I tell them. I am not here to tell you what I did, I am here to
tell you what I can do for you. If you don't like what I do, you don't pay.
Since, them they are a job resource, not only coming from Nestle but from
other companies, as McDonalds, Sizzler, etc.
Last month I designed a Table Tent for Nesquik, a week ago I was at Nestle
front-desk talking with the receptionist. A woman came in with her four
children. A Table Tent was over a table. Boys and girls started playing with
the Table Tent, and their mother took it in her hands and quickly said Oh!
How good new flavors Double Chocolate, and Vanilla, then she asked. Are they
already available in stores? Proudly, I thought, I am not Picasso, but I am
a good Commercial Artist. My diploma didn't mean nothing to that woman.
Again, if you have the opportunity to go to an school, or personal teacher,
go for it. It will help, but be sure it is a good one, so you don't lose
your time, and money.
Regards
Gina Walton
Your conversation has been very enlightening. I have enjoyed all your
opinions. My sister designs web sites. She has asked me on occasion to
design something-logo, navigational bar, graphics for movement, adding
special effects to photos etc. I have done this with no formal training.
She is from the school that creating websites isn't about being artistic, it
is about sending your message out to the public in a simple straight forward
way. She likes websites like IBM site and Compaq. These sites bore me to
tears and if I have to do that all the time I would rather clean toilets at
the local gym. I have read books interviewing top designers in the country
like Andreas Lindstrom-(Viagra and Carnegie Hall sites) and have seen
amazing things on websites like- www.ideo.com, www.neostream.com,
www.thevoid.co.uk, www.hyper-active.co.za, www.ethreedirektiv.com. Now I
realize it took balancing simplification, knowing your target market,
useability and artistry, but I can't help feeling and because I am a newbie
and everyone isn't going to put a lot of worth into what I am about to say,
but it's my opinion that these people had to have an artistic flair and a
great deal of imagination that could never have come from any textbook or
course. I have created jewelry that people have paid good money for and I
have designed greeting cards that people couldn't believe I didn't just buy
at a Hallmark store. I like being creative but that isn't enough to get a
job unfortunately....and I have no idea what this has to do with finding a
course online but your conversation moved me to say this. By the way I
found two schools after all (The Art Institute Online and The Online School
of Art & New Media)one doesn't specify any particular program and the other
recommends Illustrator, but I can still do the course work in the software
program I'm comfortable with. I am sure they are not the best but
something to get my feet wet until my circumstances change.
Thanks again for taking the time to help.
Gina
"Michael Cervantes" <mcde...@tld.net> wrote in message
news:3cc75601$1_3@cnews...
Michael Cervantes
Gina for what you describe you have been doing, you are what in baseball is
named a NATURAL. You are a graphic artist, and a fine artist by nature.
Good luck, I bet on you.
Michael Cervantes
Man, you are a great illustrator. I really admire your work, and creativity.
Best regards
KNPepper
Thank you ever so much for your kind words, Michael.
Funny how only today, after admiring one of your works, I
proclaimed you "The Master." Really and truly, I wish we were in
the same city so we could work together (so that I could learn
from you).
Best regards,
K.N.Pepper
[To respond privately, replace "meal" with "mail" in address.]
Michael Cervantes
> Funny how only today, after admiring one of your works, I
> proclaimed you "The Master." Really and truly, I wish we were in
> the same city so we could work together (so that I could learn
> from you).
>
Anyone can master what I know, but nobody can learn your talent as
illustrator. It is in your gene, well probably a clone.
What city are you at?
Regards
Gigi
(a moment of silence, please . . .)
After shedding a few tears over this sorrowful news, I must say . . .
You are amazing!! I love it when you draw! Now you, my friend, have
flair!!
Gigi
"KNPepper" <KNPe...@redir.qlmedia.com> wrote in message
news:3cc8b4f5$1_3@cnews...
>
> Bill and Gigi asked:
>
> > ... where's the Cockroach?
>
> The dung beetle masquerading as a cockroach didn't work, Huh? (I
> was only trying to protect you from the gruesome truth.)
>
> OK, here's the real story.
>
> Following in the master's footsteps in the hope of becoming a
> great artist, the cockroach got a little ahead of himself one
> fateful day ...
>
> Please see attached (mature audiences only).
>
> K.N.Pepper
> [To thwack privately, replace "meal" with "mail" in address.]
>
>
>
Gigi
"Michael Cervantes" <mcde...@tld.net> wrote in message
news:3cc868d9_3@cnews...
>Proudly, I thought, I am not Picasso, but I am a good Commercial Artist.
Yes, you are!! Good job, Michael!
Thanks for your thoughts, they are very good.
Gigi
Bob Friedman
Check out the University of South Wales, Sydney Australia.
Http://www.ibe.unsw.edu.au Loads of free courses via internet. Did some
basic Director 8.5, pretty cool. Make sure you get a Canadian teacher to
insure getting many A's.
>I have read books interviewing top designers in the >country
>like Andreas Lindstrom-(Viagra
Have they reveled the generic name on their web site for that drug
yet?<micoxsaphlopin, hci>
Greetins KN, always enjoy your stuff. Great blurs to brighten up these
groups. Thank you.
--
Bob
<visit us anytime at>
www.pamspress.com
"Gina Walton" <gin...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3cc86c34_3@cnews...
Bob Friedman
Sorry, wrong link. Corrected below.
http://www.fbe.unsw.edu.au/Learning/Director/
--
Bob
<visit us anytime at>
www.pamspress.com
"Bob Friedman" <webm...@pamspress.com> wrote in message
news:3cc955ad$1_2@cnews...
Mr. Bill
Gigi wrote:
> Nice, Very Nice!
> But, Mr. Bill is right: where's the cockroach?
Hi Gigi,
You do know my friend KNPepper was trying to
portray a message that :)) 10 is full of bugs!
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/graphictimes/instant/newhome.html P-Paint 9
Perhaps there is a cockroach amongst the bugs, but I can't identify with
it... <grin>
Kind regards,
Mr. Bill
Gigi
> You do know my friend KNPepper was trying to
> portray a message that :)) 10 is full of bugs!
>
Hey, I'm as ditzy as I suspected! (hopefully this doesn't undermine all the
prestige I've gained in this newsgroup!!!! <LOL>)
Ah Yes, it's all coming clear to me now!
(He who laughs last, has the slowest mind!)
I don't think I'm quick enough or smart enough to keep up with any of you
guys . .. .
> http://mywebpage.netscape.com/graphictimes/instant/newhome.html P-Paint 9
>
Color My World just proves it. :)
Gigi
Mr. Bill
Gigi wrote:
> Ah Yes, it's all coming clear to me now!
> (He who laughs last, has the slowest mind!)
>
> I don't think I'm quick enough or smart enough to keep up with any of you
> guys . .. .
>
> > http://mywebpage.netscape.com/graphictimes/instant/newhome.html P-Paint 9
> >
>
> Color My World just proves it. :)
Hi Gigi,
I may have a little 255, 0, 0 ( RGB - red) in my face when KN is finished with me.
Probably I read his wonderful work incorrectly, but I find it hard to believe
he likes insects on his palette. Although in different parts of the World
they are considered a delicacy. <LOL>
KN has been a regular for many years and I personally would have a difficult
time without his occasional smacks of humor in Corel's newsgroups.
I keep playing with Netscape/AOL instant web page. I change the picture
often, very often. Perhaps this will encourage other's to try it out. It's not the fastest
and bandwidth during prime time is near zero, but it easy and it's free.
Do not disappear on us, the more the merrier. "Before you know it, you will
be helping out here in Corel's newsgroups :-)"
Wishing you the very best,
Stefan Lindblad
TRUE TRUE! Michael!
I am an illustrator and "fine" artist, and one thing I know is that the tool
is just a tool and nothing else!
Stefan Lindblad
"Michael Cervantes" <mcde...@tld.net> wrote in message
news:3cc75601$1_3@cnews...
>
Jay
"Bob Friedman" <webm...@pamspress.com> wrote in news:3cc84211_2@cnews:
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> I agree with you. Concept is in your head, software gives you the
> tools
> to communicate it. You cannot learn how to think and dream. What you
> got is what you got.
>
I disagree
we can learn these things too, if we choose.
Jay
Graeme Standage
On 7 May 2002 18:14:05 -0400, Jay <jmaec...@amada.com> wrote:
>I disagree
>
>we can learn these things too, if we choose.<<
Yes and no. Like photography, one can learn certain things/elements
but I'm of the opinion for those that make a successful and long
lasting career, with a respected reputation amongst ones peers -
you'll find it's 'something_in_the_blood', something they would have
had a leaning towards and shown signs of in pre-teen years.
--
Graeme
{Please reply to newsgroup}
Jim Hart [C_Tech]
In article <0engducs0juhq8436...@4ax.com>,
gst...@compuserve.com says...
>it's 'something_in_the_blood',
>
IOW, you can learn that you got it and you can then learn to
use what you got, but if you ain't got it, you can't lean to
use it. <g>