Other Melbourne groups & spaces
David Payne
This building was originally a hacker space for energy-related projects and was actually built by the members in the early 1980s.
I was about to post a link to ATA's Arduino group but I found they connected with CCHS 10 months ago.
Some amateur radio groups (ie Highett) have facilities where they might hack hardware.
Some computer groups repair electronics at meetings but I'm not aware of any that have on going projects that can be left out & worked on frequently;- at best such things would be stuffed in a cupboard or brought to meetings & stored somewhere else. (MiCOM http://micom.asn.au/ was looking for owned/leased facilities but then membership plummetted as members joined ghetto groups instead.)
There was the Munchkin project which finished in 1985ish. http://miriam-english.org/munchkin.html This was carried out in a home in Noble Park.
BTW there wasn't enough participants for the Ballarat symposium so a smaller one was held at RMIT where Flip http://www.fliptronics.com/about.html was a lecturer. The symposium was videotaped on PAL VHS but as far as I know video hasn't been posted anywhere. And I think my docs were left behind in a move 8~{(] .
In Australia the most established hacker-space like facilities would likely be "Men's Sheds". (I think the name is unfortunate as they are not restricted to males but I guess it seemed a pithy summary of the concept). Men's sheds are pretty common in Australia. The Prime Minister's "First Bloke" is a patron & TV host Dave Hughes is a spokesman (or something). A lot of discussion of Men's Shed's seems to emphasise the therapeutic & supportive aspects of the process & the products are less covered. Nevertheless things are made or repaired & I think Hacker Spaces also are not just about what can be made. From the inside (metaphorically) they might look fairly different but from the POV of govt authorities I expect they would look similar & a given municipality might wonder on the need for both.
(Of course, since ie CCHS isn't getting govt handouts this isn't really their business as long as a Hacker-Space observes laws & follows mandated procedures).
I don't have experience with either but perhaps Rob UK could make an informed comparison as he is familiar with at least the venue of the Altona Men's Shed & of course CCHS.
Andy Gelme
On 2012-03-15 05:10 , David Payne wrote:
> I was about to post a link to ATA's Arduino group but I found they
> connected with CCHS 10 months ago.
The CCHS and ATA members have been interacting longer than that ...
nearly a couple of years now. Mostly, with the ATA Arduino group, but
also the ATA EV group (who meet regularly at Swinburne Uni).
The CCHS and ATA have in the past and will continue in the future to
explore potential space locations together. The CCHS has solved it's
immediate needs ... while the ATA is continuing to explore future
longer-term (and more expansive) possibilities.
Ben Somerville is both a long term ATA member and now a CCHS member, who
has a specific interest in both groups. Paul Szymkowiak has been
interacting with the ATA on behalf of the CCHS for a while now. There
is a longer list of members who have had significant involvement in both
groups, e.g Bernd.
Whilst there is a clear difference between the goals of the CCHS and the
ATA, there is also a significant amount of overlap in common interest.
There is likely to be increasing and different types of interaction
between our groups from here on. Until the CCHS had a permanent
location, we were severely constrained ... now, that is much less of a
problem for us.
> In Australia the most established hacker-space like facilities would
> likely be "Men's Sheds". (I think the name is unfortunate as they are
> not restricted to males but I guess it seemed a pithy summary of the
> concept).
A while ago, the CCHS contacted the Men's Shed group about locations,
insurance and funding. At the time (and perhaps it was just the opinion
of the specific Men's Shed person that was contacted), it appeared that
their focus and requirements were such that it didn't make much sense
for the CCHS to become a Men's Shed or be closely associated.
Certainly, the apparent focus on "men", was much too limiting in our
opinion. However, Men's Shed are a very helpful group and some of our
members have some involvement with them (but, I don't know the details).
My understanding is that one or more members of the ATA have contacted
the Men's Shed more recently ... and came away with a much more flexible
view of the Men's Shed position than we did. Perhaps things have
changed, or perhaps the ATA just contacted someone different.
Whilst there are a lot of different organizations out there either
making things or exploring technology ... I don't think they can all be
clearly labelled as hackerspaces. There is a cultural aspect and a
certain amount of self-identification as a hackerspace that makes the
CCHS definitely one, and the many other groups that you mentioned ...
not. Some of the groups we've spoken to would never want the word
"hacker" to be associated with them, fearing the bad connotations of the
name. Other groups don't have the same focus on sharing skills,
particularly around open technologies or such a broad range of "making"
that a hackerspace tends to cover (over many different domain skill
sets). Other groups meet and talk, but don't have such a focus on
making stuff first and foremost. Some groups are more commercially
oriented, like tech workshops or co-working spaces ... yes, you can hack
there, but those organizations aren't really hackerspaces as such.
> Of course, since ie CCHS isn't getting govt handouts ...
Not yet ... but it would be good to get government grants and industry
sponsorship for funding the space, e.g. more equipment, specific
projects, defraying membership costs. However, the common belief is
that hackerspaces which rely heavily on external funding and can't
support themselves primarily through membership are ultimately precarious.
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Clifford Heath
> A while ago, the CCHS contacted the Men's Shed group about locations,
> insurance and funding. At the time (and perhaps it was just the opinion
> of the specific Men's Shed person that was contacted), it appeared that
> their focus and requirements were such that it didn't make much sense
> for the CCHS to become a Men's Shed or be closely associated.
> Certainly, the apparent focus on "men", was much too limiting in our
> opinion. However, Men's Shed are a very helpful group and some of our
> members have some involvement with them (but, I don't know the details).
>
> My understanding is that one or more members of the ATA have contacted
> the Men's Shed more recently ... and came away with a much more flexible
> view of the Men's Shed position than we did.
The original Men's Shed is just a suburb away from me here in Lane Cove.
If you'd like, I'll contact them (probably will sooner or later anyhow) and
ask on your behalf.
I had looked up the Men's Shed in Waverley, partly because it was only 2km
from my home, and found they only opened four weekdays, during business
hours. Clearly not focussed on working people! The pictures on the site made
me think everyone there must be retired. That alone is a significant cultural
difference. That generation also has very few folk still interested in hacking
electronics, unless they're radio amateurs… and then they use toobz :).
Clifford Heath.
Ben Somerville
The Men's Shed concept has certainly morphed into a wide variety of
operations. Some of them are just that - a Men's Shed, cup of coffee
along with "secret men's business. But, as you have seen, some of
them are quite broad and inclusive in their operation. There are even
some that are actually businesses and sell goods that they
manufacture. Initially we where a little wary of the original Men Shed
concept, however, when we found that the "shed" could be run
relatively however we wanted, could include both genders and even
families, they became a viable option. In fact you do not even have
to call yourself a "Men's Shed". Our view has always been to try and
make it a broad community space so any ideas and help in achieving
this would be gratefully received.
ATA has registered as a Men Shed with Men Shed Victoria. A small
committee representing ATA Melbourne Branch, ATA Electric Vehicle
Group and ATA Arduino group has been set with the aim to eventually
create a ATA Community Projects space. The whole process of setting up
the ATA Community Projects Space could take up to 4 years. We have
created a comprehensive Projects Space Manual to plan our project. We
are currently exploring "Community Space" possibilities with several
local councils. There have been several discussions with CCHS about
exploring possibilities of working together. ATA member ship cost
about $90.00 per annum I would imagine that a high "Community Projects
Space" membership fee would deter many from joining, so the key to
success is a low membership fee structure.
Ben Somerville ATA Community Projects space Co-ordinator.
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David Payne
On Mar 15, 10:17 am, Ben Somerville <btso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi All
SNIP
> ATA has registered as a Men Shed with Men Shed Victoria. A small
> committee representing ATA Melbourne Branch, ATA Electric Vehicle
> Group and ATA Arduino group has been set with the aim to eventually
> create a ATA Community Projects space.
> Ben Somerville ATA Community Projects space Co-ordinator.
for now?
> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 8:36 AM, Clifford Heath
SNIP
> > I had looked up the Men's Shed in Waverley,
> > partly because it was only 2km from my home, and found they only opened four weekdays, during business
> > hours. Clearly not focussed on working people!
> >The pictures on the site made me think everyone there must be retired. That alone is a significant cultural
> > difference.
> > That generation also has very few folk still interested in hacking
electronics, unless they're radio amateurs… and then they use
toobz :).
>
> > Clifford Heath.
olds & 90 year olds are the same generation but most of the 60-7*
electronics folk I know (mainly computer hobbyists) are more familiar
with ICs than toobz. Although RobB & I know someone still working
professionally in radio who chose to make some equipment with toobz to
make the project more interesting & freak out his younger boss. And I
think high power transmitters still use toobz even when designed by 40
year old whippersnappers.
The biggest cultural differences (in IT folk), I would expect are
1)whether they cared about freeness of hardware & software & the sense
of an idealistic mission therein,
2)sometimes discomfort with the term "Hacker". This would be more
common with those starting computing from the mid to late 1980s onward
(when the mass-media applied the term to everyone trying to break-in
to a system & rarely to anyone else ) , older hobbyists are likely to
have admired & aspired to Hackerdom.
In case it isn't obvious, I'm not trying to tell CCHS folk that they
should do something other than what they have done & are planning;-
(pretty awesome!)
I've just aimed to throw in what I know about what else has been done
& is out there, and I'm pleasantly surprised to see that CCHS has been
way ahead of me & has been communicating with other groups for a long
time.
BTW Clifford, do you know anything about the fate of an amateur
computer group that met in Chatswood into at least the mid-1980s? As
it started in 1976 it was Australia's oldest by 3 months. Now I can't
even remember the name but I think it had an acronym something like
MEGGS - Microcomputer Enthusiasts ....
Clifford Heath
>> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 8:36 AM, Clifford Heath
> (took me a while to realise you meant in Sydney)
No, I meant the one in 77 Bogong Avenue Glen Waverley:
http://waverleycommunitylearningcentre.org.au/mms.htm
>>> The pictures on the site made me think everyone there must be retired. That alone is a significant cultural
>>> difference.
> In that shed & perhaps usually, but not by definition AFAIK.
And then I made reference to the very first Mens Shed,
in Lane Cove up here in Sydney. See this:
<http://www.mensshed.org.au/locateht.htm>
Does that strike you as a working person's club?
>>> That generation also has very few folk still interested in hacking
>>> electronics, unless they're radio amateurs… and then they use toobz :).
> Hang on, jokes aside, maybe from your youthful perspective 60 year
> olds & 90 year olds are the same generation but most of the 60-7*
> electronics folk I know (mainly computer hobbyists) are more familiar
> with ICs than toobz.
Yeah, I know - but there's a stereotype. Some of the old farts
are incredibly advanced. I visited one ham shack with a 20-year
history of building amateur TV and other amazing projects. But
when the SERGE convention in Mt Gambier gives awards every
year, fancy prizes always go to beautifully built creations that
weigh at least 25Kg and there's some disrespect for anything
that took a microscope to make (though those can win prizes too).
Another angle that professional EEs hold is that these days most
of the interesting work is inside the epoxy, and all they get to do
is mix-n-match.
> BTW Clifford, do you know anything about the fate of an amateur
> computer group that met in Chatswood into at least the mid-1980s?
I don't know about Chatswood clubs, I've lived in Sydney
for less than a month. I can ask around though, once I
get time to start meeting people. I remember the MEGGS
acronym from back then though.
Clifford Heath.
Ben Somerville
Facilities already exist as single purpose entities such as the Men’s
Facility or Ceres’s BikeFacility but there are, to our knowledge no
facility used by multiple groups on a collaborative arrangement.
As our communities have become increasingly “modernized”, we’ve seen a
loss of “the classic Facility” from our newer residential structures.
We’ve also seen a dwindling of the Australian manufacturing sector
over the past 20 to 30 years.
This has consequently left a deficit of local skills for making and
repairing mechanical, electrical or automotive products. A shared
technical arts project facility would help to redress this loss of
basic production skills and knowledge.
The ATA Projects Space Facility offers unique benefits that would not
be achievable by groups operating individually. The housing of
multi-discipline technical arts in the one location would achieve a
critical mass that would realize additional benefits such as cross
collaboration and the longer term potential of offering training, so
enriching the community.
The ATA Project Space Facility offers all of the benefits of the
traditional Men’s Facility and Community houses but extending it into
areas of very broad community development, help and support and be
inclusive of all residents regardless of gender etc.
The facility also has the potential to generate funds and become a
more financially sustainable arrangement.
Ben Somerville ATA Community Projects space Co-ordinator.
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 3:25 AM, David Payne <spyde...@gmail.com> wrote:
Richie Cyngler
Andy Gelme
On 2012-03-27 13:12 , Richie Cyngler wrote:
> The focus is mainly open software and hardware like Pd, SuperCollider,
> Processing, Open Frameworks, Arduino, etc but certainly not limited to
> those platforms and the group is completely open to anyone interested
> regardless of experience. We don't currently have a meeting site and
> would probably be interested in meeting at CCHS sometimes (for example
> when focusing on hardware work), and again would welcome any CCHS
> people or others interested.
Getting enough momentum (membership and finances) to be able to afford a
sustainable physical meeting space, complete with equipment is a
significant effort. A key approach for the CCHS is to be effectively a
place for a number of like-minded hacker / hobbyist domains, e.g
Arduino, CNC / 3D printing, robotics, UAVs / rocketry, electronics,
electric vehicles, crafts, up-cycling, etc ... to hang out.
Being a physical home / meeting place for such groups, starting with
Arduino and 3D printing / CNC is definitely a goal. Other groups do not
need to be subsumed into the CCHS (we aren't planning to be an amoeba
!). As long as there is some mutual arrangement that works for all
concerned ... then, it should all be good. Let's talk further.
As soon as possible, we'd certainly like to have regular Arduino session
/ workshops ... in addition to our regular Tuesday evening general
meeting. There is no reason for that session to be limited strictly to
Arduino ... and would be better off being more inclusive and effectively
a general micro-controller hardware and software / associated host PC
software session (including Android).
There is a balance between having focus on a given platform, e.g
Arduino, that allows everyone to collaborate and share skills much more
easily ... versus the benefits that come from diversity in platform choice.
> We have a mailing list too.
URL, please ?
Richie Cyngler
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David Payne
On Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:06:06 AM UTC+11, andyg (@geekscape) wrote:
hi All,On 2012-03-15 05:10 , David Payne wrote:
SNIP
> In Australia the most established hacker-space like facilities would
> likely be "Men's Sheds". (I think the name is unfortunate as they are
> not restricted to males but I guess it seemed a pithy summary of the
> concept).A while ago, the CCHS contacted the Men's Shed group about locations,
insurance and funding. At the time (and perhaps it was just the opinion
of the specific Men's Shed person that was contacted), it appeared that
their focus and requirements were such that it didn't make much sense
for the CCHS to become a Men's Shed or be closely associated.
Certainly, the apparent focus on "men", was much too limiting in our
opinion. However, Men's Shed are a very helpful group and some of our
members have some involvement with them (but, I don't know the details).My understanding is that one or more members of the ATA have contacted
the Men's Shed more recently ... and came away with a much more flexible
view of the Men's Shed position than we did. Perhaps things have
changed, or perhaps the ATA just contacted someone different.
SNIP
> Of course, since ie CCHS isn't getting govt handouts ...
Not yet ... but it would be good to get government grants and industry
sponsorship for funding the space, e.g. more equipment, specific
projects, defraying membership costs. However, the common belief is
that hackerspaces which rely heavily on external funding and can't
support themselves primarily through membership are ultimately precarious.
DP -
This - talk to someone different get different answer- situation is likely pretty common.
http://www.mensshed.org/shed-development-plan/.aspx
about the federal government grants that are being administered BY THE MEN'S SHED ASSOCIATION!, (which I'm not comfortable about), I see references to a National Male Health Policy & then a definition which starts
"A Men’s Shed is any community-based, non-commercial organisation which is open to all males where: ..."
So unlike other parts of their website, here it seems "Men's Sheds" are specifically for men, which gives me the impression that they are also exclusively for men. (Which I'm also not comfortable about). Apparently from the perspective of part of the federal government "Men's Sheds" are for sustaining male health & maybe that's where the money comes from, (although I doubt it). I wonder if groups like CCHS have a real chance of getting one of these grants, not likely IF the decision-makers at Men's Shed Australia see unaffiliated groups as rivals or unqualified because the grants are for men's sheds or for MEN only facilities.
But by the rules stated on that webpage CCHS would qualify. Applications for Round 4 close in a week so if CCHS isn't already aware of this (so far you guys have been way ahead of me on everything I've suggested ...) you might want to take a look. (Sorry I didn't find out about it until recently).
Oh, Clifford -yeah you totally fooled me with that Waverley trick but you had to move interstate to do it! (Man, the trouble some folk will go to!) ;~{)>