The Laser Cutter Assembly Fund - Please assist if you can.

[Dave Chanter]

Hi All,

I had a discussion with Luke and Andy last night to work out the details of getting the Laser up and running, in practical terms we have decided that we need about $400 to finish the assembly of the electronics. That's $300 for 2x assembled circuit boards (Primary and Backup) and $100 for any unforeseen incidentals, such as cables, connectors, safety sensors. Any excess can go into purchasing some acrylic for members to slice and dice or back to CCHS's coffers.

Why are we doing this? CCHS is still taking care of the primary functions of paying the rent and insurance and until membership fees begin coming in they do not have a war chest to fund such things. So I am asking those of you who are willing to chip in a bit extra to help getting the laser up and running for the space. 

We are aiming for 10 people to chip in $40 each. If this sounds like you then you can reply here or if you prefer email me privately at dcha...@gmail.com with the subject "Laser Cutter" and pledge to pay a share.

If someone out there is willing to chip in more, then we wont say no. If we get more than 10 people willing to pledge to pay a share then obviously the cost per person goes down accordingly. (eg: 20 people = $20 per person)

I'll begin by pledging to pay a share.

[Stuart Young]

Hi Dave,

Count me in. :D

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[Andy Gelme]

hi Dave,

Thanks for organizing this !

On 2012-05-15 14:46 , Stuart Young wrote:
> Count me in. :D

+$40 from me ;)

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[John Spencer]

On 15/05/12 14:49, Andy Gelme wrote:
> hi Dave,
>
> Thanks for organizing this !
>
> On 2012-05-15 14:46 , Stuart Young wrote:
>> Count me in. :D
> +$40 from me ;)
>

I'm in.

[Paul Szymkowiak]

Thanks Dave,

Count me in too :)

PS - Which reminds me: it's probably a good point at which to revisit our commitment to the donor. Happy to discuss that on or off list with laser cutter supporters/ sympathisers 

Cheers,

Paul

On 15 May 2012 14:28, Dave Chanter <dcha...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Robert Eales]

Nice work.  I'm in as well.

Cheers
Rob

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[Clare Sloggett]

Thanks Dave, I'm in too.

On 15 May 2012 14:28, Dave Chanter <dcha...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Rob B]

I'm in for 40, and a bit of time.
Regards Rob B

[Dave Chanter]

Thanks Everyone,

Just 2 more people to meet our goal of having 10 pledges!

Should have put it on Kickstarter.

[wes Black]

Oh, OK!

Me!

Wes

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[Jan Schmidt]

On Tue, 2012-05-15 at 18:45 -0700, Dave Chanter wrote:
> Thanks Everyone,
>
>
> Just 2 more people to meet our goal of having 10 pledges!

I'll put in $40 :)

Got a paypal or bank account to send it to?

- Jan.

>
>
> Should have put it on Kickstarter.
>

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[wes Black]

Me!

Wes

[Jan Schmidt]

On Wed, 2012-05-16 at 19:02 +1000, wes Black wrote:
> Me!

That's you twice - careful, or you'll be up for a bunch of money! ;)

- Jan.

>
> Wes
>
> On 16 May 2012 18:51, Jan Schmidt <tha...@noraisin.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 2012-05-15 at 18:45 -0700, Dave Chanter wrote:
> > Thanks Everyone,
> >
> >
> > Just 2 more people to meet our goal of having 10 pledges!
>
>
> I'll put in $40 :)
>
> Got a paypal or bank account to send it to?
>
> - Jan.
>
> >
> >
> > Should have put it on Kickstarter.
> >
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> +unsub...@googlegroups.com.

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> >
> http://groups.google.com/group/connected-community-hackerspace?hl=en.
>
>
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[wes Black]

D'oh! Thought the first didn't go thru. 'puter probs!

[John Bosua]

I'm in for 40

John Bosua

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[Clare Sloggett]

It's like a kickstarter. Soon you will have $1,000,020 and you will have to put some kind of bonus features on the laser cutter.

[Stuart Young]

Hey, if we can afford to buy a shark tank and a shark to mount it all on, all the better. ;)

[Dave Chanter]

Hello All,

We have made our goal! Funding will stay open until we are ready to pay the first bill just to see how low we can get each share. So if you want to help out let us know, each pledge lowers the cost per person!

At the moment it is $36 each and the next steps will go like this:

- Luke and Freetronics kick off the construction of the circuit boards to get the exact cost sorted.

- I will pay the initial invoice to ensure the circuit board gets on its way as soon as possible since it has a lead time.

- I will close funding and request people transfer the cash over to me based on what the pledge price is at the time.

- Luke, Myself, Rob Britt and other interested parties will construct, troubleshoot, code and document the laser until its up and running. 

- Contingency will be spent as needed, remainder will buy some acrylic/particleboard stock for the space. 

- We all get to build with lasers!

- Hooray!

I'm inclined to purchase a set of goggles with the appropriately filtered lenses for safety also. Does anyone know what wavelength our Laser is? Or jumping to the end goal, does anyone know where to obtain the right safety goggles for our Laser?

Thank you everyone.

David Chanter

[Andy Gelme]

hi Dave,

On 2012-05-18 12:34 , Dave Chanter wrote:
> I'm inclined to purchase a set of goggles with
> the appropriately filtered lenses for safety also. Does anyone know
> what wavelength our Laser is ?

Wavelengths for CO2 lasers in general are 9.4 or 10.6 micrometres (rough
range 9.2 to 11.4 micrometres).

The on-line documentation for the RedSail M500 CO2 laser cutter states
it is 10.6 (or 10.64) micrometres.

> Or jumping to the end goal, does anyone know where to obtain the right
> safety goggles for our Laser ?

In general, I would hope that the laser cutter can be safely operated
without goggles.

All the interlocks should be enabled, so that opening the lid (or other
doors) causes power to the laser to be cut. Note: It is likely that the
"front panel door" doesn't have an interlock, because it can be used to
insert large objects ... we should review this.

We should check that the tinted / opaque inspection panel on the lid
will correctly shield the laser beam. Because, in addition to the
operator ... it's the sort of device that will attract casual observers
who will gather around and watch it in action. It would be a problem if
every single observer / passer-by requires googles, because the laser
cutter hasn't been made safe.

Having said that ... we'd probably all be a lot more comfortable if
there is a pair of appropriate safety googles for anyone operating the
laser cutter.

It would be worth asking Gav or Robots & Dinosaurs (Sydney HackerSpace)
what they have in place.

RoboDino have a couple of great pages on their laser cutter ...

- http://hackerspace.pbworks.com/w/page/41180361/Lasercutter
-
http://hackerspace.pbworks.com/w/page/41180334/Lasercutter%20-%20Setting%20and%20Examples

... and they don't mention eye protection.

[Michael Borthwick]

On 18/05/2012, at 12:34 PM, Dave Chanter wrote:

> I'm inclined to purchase a set of goggles with the appropriately
> filtered lenses for safety also. Does anyone know what wavelength
> our Laser is? Or jumping to the end goal, does anyone know where to
> obtain the right safety goggles for our Laser?

I have my laser modules built by Laserex in Adelaide. They also sell
safety goggles.
http://www.laserex.net

[Dave Chanter]

Thanks Andy,

I agree that no one should need eye protection to use the laser during normal operation. (If they do we have not done our job right.) I'm just investigating all possible requirements.

I was concerned about the initial troubleshooting phase where the machine might not be completely assembled, however in hindsight that's the wrong approach. The correct approach is to never, not even in testing, activate the tube unless all shields and interlocks are in place. I will discuss with people prior to work starting.

DC

[Philip Rowse]

If any of you use Yag, Diode, or Fiber lasers, SAFETY GLASESS, and Viewing screens MUST be used, with NO exception, no matter the power level, these lasers WILL destroy your retinas.

HOWEVER.........

If you research the CO2 laser, you will find that it will focus in front of the retina, so within the confines of a cutting machine, unless you look directly down the beam path, all is good, the lasers I deal with are CO2 up to 6KW, and if you cop a direct hit, your eyes are the least of your worries :)

If your cutter has a lid made of acrylic, at your power you will be ok, as acrylic does not pass through a noticeable amount of energy at the CO2 wavelength,(unfocused)

In fact, if you look at many commercial laser cutters up to 5KW, you will find NO covers, and limited use of safety glasses unless they are cutting or etching aluminum, stainless, brass, or copper.

And if the cover is hit by a direct focused beam, it will flame up, prompting you to hit the estop or run...

Just make sure you have multiple redundancies on the machines cover, and all should be well.

On a lighter note....

There is a commercial laser cutter in Melbourne that had a visit from work cover, who insisted that all the staff should be in full radiation suits :) 

A few lessons in science later and the work cover inspector understood that the laser had NO uranium in it :)

If any of you are interested, I have over 10 years of involvement in lasers, and have designed multiple cutting machines for an ex-Australian company (Chinese now) using various versions of CO2 lasers as well as Fiber, diode, and YAG lasers.

Philip Rowse 

ProfiCNC

[Dave Chanter]

Hi Philip,

Thanks for jumping in with your expertise, its always good to hear from people who work in the industry that your hacking in with some advice. We are refurbishing a Red Sail M500 which from your comments will be safe with just its acrylic lid to shield from scatter and interlocks to prevent direct exposure.

Thanks,

DC

[Philip Rowse]

Baring the idiot factor of someone defeating the safety and laying their head in the beam path....

Philip Rowse 

ProfiCNC

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[Luke Weston]

Great stuff Dave, thanks for all your help and effort organising this.

I'm inclined to purchase a set of goggles with the appropriately filtered lenses for safety also. Does anyone know what wavelength our Laser is? Or jumping to the end goal, does anyone know where to obtain the right safety goggles for our Laser?

Just to give you an example, if you want a set of laser safety glasses for use with a carbon dioxide laser, you want the LG6, that is, the one that is right at the bottom of the page. (OD7 at 10.6 um or thereabouts.)

http://www.thorlabs.hk/catalogpages/V21/455.PDF

 They are $147.90 USD per head plus any applicable taxes and shipping.

(Thor Labs is a pretty good and *relatively cheap* supplier of respectable-quality optical systems for research and industry.)

So, how many sets of $150 glasses do you think we want to budget for?

However, with a laser system of this nature, laser safety glasses are arguably inappropriate, especially when their high cost is factored in.

In general, I would hope that the laser cutter can be safely operated 
without goggles. 

All the interlocks should be enabled, so that opening the lid (or other 
doors) causes power to the laser to be cut.

I absolutely agree, to give the short one-line answer.
 

Note: It is likely that the 
"front panel door" doesn't have an interlock, because it can be used to 
insert large objects ... we should review this. 

None of the other openable access/service panels except for the main top lid have interlock microswitches on them.
I don't think they should ever be opened during normal laser operation, and I can't think of what use case you would ever want to do so.
 

We should check that the tinted / opaque inspection panel on the lid 
will correctly shield the laser beam.  Because, in addition to the 
operator ... it's the sort of device that will attract casual observers 
who will gather around and watch it in action.  It would be a problem if 
every single observer / passer-by requires googles, because the laser 
cutter hasn't been made safe. 

 

Having said that ... we'd probably all be a lot more comfortable if 
there is a pair of appropriate safety googles for anyone operating the 
laser cutter. 

Ultimately, though, you've got to decide if "comfortable" justifies the high cost of proper safety glasses if it's not technically needed for safe and successful results.

And I would *not* go for a suggestion that we should buy some shonky $19.95 laser safety glasses from some random eBay guy that are not CE certified with known good optical density characteristics at the appropriate wavelength, if somebody suggested something like that.

Because that's just fake "safety theatre", as Schneier would put it.

Either we decide that one or more pairs of safety glasses is desirable and their desirableness outweighs the cost and we get the proper ones from a credible vendor (even if they are on the order of a hundred bucks) or we get none at all because they are not required for safe and successful use and any slight degree of small added safety or "feeling comfortable" does not justify the cost.

Personally I believe in the latter option.

If you've got glasses like that and the 50W laser beam hits them, it will simply cut/burn straight through the glasses. They're only a couple of millimeters of plastic.

Argh, ze goggles, they do nuthink!

(To re-phrase that another way in more technical terms, the "scale number", which is basically a measurement of how much power density can be dissipated into the glasses, as discussed in the Thor catalog linked above, cannot be practically made high enough for any realistic set of safety glasses to deal with a continuous-wave 50W CO2 laser.)

The only possible thing that the glasses will protect you eyes against with a laser of this power is "diluted" laser light, that is, diffuse reflected or scattered light from the laser beam.

But if you've got a situation where the laser beam comes freely out into the room, and you want safety glasses in order to protect people's eyes from diffuse, reflected and scattered light from the laser beam, then you really need glasses for every person in the room, because every person in the room is vulnerable. That's a lot of money.

The glasses will not protect your eyes if a situation was somehow created where the laser beam has "escaped" from the laser cutter's steel chassis and is pointed towards your eyes, hitting your safety glasses. In fact, in that situation you're probably going to cop an eyeful of smoke and burning plastic and bits of molten burning safety glasses in your eyes on top of the damage from the laser beam itself.

But that situation where the laser beam "escapes" out in the room should never exist and it should never be allowed to exist.

Furthermore, if some situation somehow is created where the laser beam "escapes", the safety glasses do absolutely nothing in terms of preventing burning and cutting of tissue, setting fire to clothing, or setting fire to other combustible materials in the environment.

All these sorts of commercial laser cutter units are Class I laser devices, because the laser is inside an enclosed box and the laser light cannot
escape outside this structure and the lid is interlocked.

This means that the overall laser cutter device is a Class I laser device even though the actual laser itself is a Class IV laser.

Just like how a optical disk drive is a Class I laser device even though the actual laser diode inside it is Class II or III, because it's manufactured and packaged in a closed box and the laser light can't get out.

(Unless you deliberately take it apart and hack it, but that's your problem and not the manufacturer's problem. What we're talking about here is safe use where potentially dangerous *accidental* situations are protected against, not that sort of deliberate modification of the device.)

Every off-the-shelf laser engraver or cutter of this sort from Redsail or Epilog or whatever is basically supposed to just be a plug-and-play solution, where pretty much any idiot can use it safely and successfully (and in compliance with all usual OHS/political/bureaucratic requirements) in a manufacturing environment, for example.

In an environment where you've got "naked" Class III or Class IV lasers where the beam is open into free space, for example in a research lab environment, where the laser beam comes out into free space on your optical table or whatever, where people can actually touch the laser light under normal conditions, then you've got all sorts of engineering controls and OHS controls you have to have.

You have to your laser interlocks *on the door to the room*, your laser-on lights outside the room and appropriate signage, your lasers registered with ARPANSA and licences you've got to have in some cases, you've got to have your enclosed beam pipes and shutters where possible, and you've got all sorts of paperwork and bureaucracy to deal with, you've got to have your personnel certified as Laser Safety Officers and Radiation Safety Officers and all that sort of stuff. And of course you've got your appropriate use of appropriately chosen safety glasses too.

Anybody can go and buy an off-the-shelf Epilog or RedSail or whatever of this sort (completely enclosed stand-alone unit) and use it without any of that, because it's a Class I laser device, and there is no path or mechanism for the laser radiation to get out of its safe metal box.

That's what we're going to have and should have, just like every other comparable off-the-shelf laser engraver unit.

Which means that you've got your interlock microswitch on the lid, which we do, and you certainly don't operate the laser cutter without any of the other maintenance/service chassis panels opened up. Which there is no use case to do anyway.

 

I was concerned about the initial troubleshooting phase where the machine might not be completely assembled, however in hindsight that's the wrong approach. The correct approach is to never, not even in testing, activate the tube unless all shields and interlocks are in place. I will discuss with people prior to work starting.

I fully agree for all normal use cases, and that's true for 99% of all cases, but there are some very narrow, very rare use cases where you can't, such as alignment of the mirrors. So you do it carefully. And you don't have a dozen people all trying to share in the fun of doing it.

Also remember the golden rule: Do not look into beam with remaining eye. ;)

If your cutter has a lid made of acrylic, at your power you will be ok, as acrylic does not pass through a noticeable amount of energy at the CO2 wavelength,(unfocused)

Yep, acrylic, polycarbonate, glass, water (and the lens and vitreous humor in your eye) and pretty much anything else will absorb very well at 10.6 um. If you want to get a material that transmits radiation well at that wavelength without absorption then you have to start looking at very specialised materials like zinc selenide, which is what the lens is typically made from in these sorts of CO2 laser systems.

I think the cover is fine as is, and if it was ever desirable to replace it (eg. because of the ugly crack?), any old acrylic or polycarbonate is fine.

Of course, you still have the same issue I mentioned with the safety glasses - just as you mentioned, if the plastic cover gets hit directly with the beam, the beam will simply burn a hole through it.

However, this will be immediately obvious during laser operation, and it should never happen, because to put the laser beam on that angle would basically require gross misalignment of the second-last mirror in the mirror chain (this is probably mechanically impossible given the nature of the mirror mount) to take the laser beam outside the plane that it normally travels in and send it up there to hit the lid. Extremely unlikely.

Basically, the acrylic/polycarbonate cover will absorb any diffuse reflected or scattered laser light safely. (diffuse reflected or scattered light won't burn or melt the plastic, there's not enough power density there.), and it would provide a limited safeguard (and obvious indication) in the extremely unlikely case of the beam being directed in such a way that it can directly hit the lid.

On Friday, 18 May 2012 16:38:39 UTC+10, ProfiCNC wrote:

Baring the idiot factor of someone defeating the safety and laying their head in the beam path....

Absolutely. There is no way that any amount of expense and engineering controls can ever stop somebody who is intent on doing, for example, this: 

http://www.instructables.com/id/Laser-Tattoo/

(Not that it's dangerous or fatal... I've watched somebody hack the lid interlocks on their institution's laser engraver and do it. Somebody more masochistic than me, that's for sure. It heals and disappears in a week or so, depending on laser power setting. The burnt skin smell is yuck, so you've got to have the ventilation on.)

I don't believe in spending hundreds of dollars or spending countless hours on engineering (or on politics/bureaucracy) to construct some sort of attempt to stop people doing something silly, because if they're hell-bent that that's what they want to do they're going to do it anyway.

There's no point spending many hundreds of dollars in the belief that you can somehow counteract that, because you can't, and if somebody does something that you consider silly even though they do it wilfully and deliberately, knowing what they're doing, well, it's their responsibility and it's their problem, not anybody else's responsibility of problem.

Cheers,

  Luke

[Paul Szymkowiak]

For those interested in DIY laser cutters/ engravers, the lasersaur mail list is a pretty good resource (although it seems they may now be encouraging donations for access to the list):

    https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/lasersaur

It's probably worth noting that it's due to that list - and the lasersaur project - that we have the Redsail in the first place.

Most of what we are discussing here has been covered in significant depth on that list, and the contributors include a number of folks who have many years experience working with laser cutters in commercial, artistic and research settings. Regardless of what you think of the lasrsaur design itself, the archives are a gold mine of DIY laser cutter know how: aligning mirrors, ventilation considerations, safety considerations, etc.

For example, two of the most recent threads have included Nitrogen-assisted cutting (already being used successfully ), and a proposal for an open-source standard for laser cutter firmware for machines to be able to be interrogated for their capabilities (e.g. table/ bed size, step size, max speed cutting, max speed moving, existence of end stops, suggested x,y starting point (zero point), max laser wattage, etc) to enable device-specific generation of g-code etc. This latter suggestion is a fantastic idea, and might have applicability to other open source hardware such as 3D printers, CNC routers, etc.

Luke said

>and you certainly don't operate the laser cutter with any of the other 

>maintenance/service chassis panels opened up. Which there is no use case to do anyway.

Interestingly, this was just discussed the other day on the lasersaur mail list.

The use case proposed was feeding larger sheets of plywood/ acrylic, etc, possibly using a conveyor system. This lead to a bunch of discussion around the potential for diffuse reflected light t escape the cutter unit, and the use of brushes and other techniques to handle this.

Note that I am not suggesting at all that we should support this use case (not now anyway), just that it seems to be a plausible one.

Paul

[Dave Chanter]

Hello All,

We are now ready to collect the funds (We only need $36 each, but if you still want to round it up to $40 we will put it to good use).

Can all pledges please send an email to: dcha...@gmail.com with the Subject "Laserfund" and I will reply with bank details for a transfer.

Alternatively if you prefer you can pay cash in person at a Tuesday night session to Luke Weston or Myself. (I'm sure Chris our Treasurer wont mind collecting for us either, just let him know its for the Laserfund.)

We will be documenting the process as we go and providing regular updates for everyone, we will have a few ancillary builds to do also, such as Fume Extraction which we may request some assistance with. But for the most part everything is in hand for now.

Thank you all for your awesomeness.

DC

[Andy Gelme]

hi All,

On 2012-05-23 12:32 , Dave Chanter wrote:
> I had a discussion with Luke and Andy last night to work out the
> details of getting the Laser up and running, in practical terms we
> have decided that we need about $400 to finish the assembly of the
> electronics.

I notice that SeeedStudios have what looks like a newer, better, faster,
stronger, cooler version of the RedSail laser cutter that we have ...

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/112734382006949623750/albums/5736106978219643505/5736107844684595186

Once the new laser cutter electronics board and software is fully
operational ... perhaps we should chat to SeeedStudios about it ?

[Stuart Young]

Sounds like a good idea.

On 7 June 2012 14:46, Andy Gelme <an...@geekscape.org> wrote:

Once the new laser cutter electronics board and software is fully
operational ... perhaps we should chat to SeeedStudios about it ?

--

Stuart Young (aka Cefiar)

[Luke Weston]

The final production files are here:

https://github.com/lukeweston/LaserCutter

I let Marc know a couple of weeks ago that those were ready, and I did
the bill-of-materials type stuff, and he is going to order the
manufacturing of a couple of boards. (Knowing Marc, he'll probably
have a final look-over the engineering too, beforehand.)

I don't know whether the manufacturing has actually been ordered yet
because I haven't spoken to Marc since then and he's pretty busy as
you understand, but next time I'm talking to him I'll get an update.

Cheers,
Luke

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 10:40 AM, Andy Gelme <an...@geekscape.org> wrote:
> hi Dave and Luke,

>
> On 2012-05-23 12:32 , Dave Chanter wrote:

>> We will be documenting the process as we go and providing regular
>> updates for everyone, we will have a few ancillary builds to do also,
>> such as Fume Extraction which we may request some assistance with. But
>> for the most part everything is in hand for now.
>

> Have you let everyone know the current status, e.g the PCB has been
> ordered ?  And, perhaps an ETA / next steps.
>