My response to today's Stillspeaking Daily Devotional for July 21: Is Jesus God?

[Bct...@aol.com]

Dear CC Open Forum colleagues,

 

Now I am in big trouble, because I have posted a critical response to the UCC's daily devotional for today, using the Facebook page.  I have copied my response directly below, and the devotional reflection further below.  I thought I'd share it with you, since you know of my Trinitarian beliefs and theology.

 

Jane

 

From Facebook: 

 

Jane Ellingwood

I was very surprised at William Green's reflection on today's passage from John. First, Rev. Green, you imposed your views on us, and second, your commentary was only very loosely connected to this very challenging, and deeply theological, passage from the Gospel of John. I believe fully in the Trinity. I believe that Jesus is God. He is called "my Lord and my God!" by Thomas, in John 20:28. And, in a close parallel to John 6:46, which is part of the reading for today, it says in the Prologue to John, in 1:18, that, "No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known," and some texts of this verse are even clearer on the point that this is about God. This is biblical theology. It's also theology from the Nicene Creed, which is the most ecumenical creed of the Church, and from Chalcedon, which someone has already pointed out here. I usually very much appreciate reading the Daily Devotionals, but in this case, I am deeply concerned that an ordained minister would start a devotional with the statement, "Jesus is not God." I prefer not to have someone dictate that to me. I tried to say "I believe" in this posting here, and the UCC does accept the historical confessions of faith of the church.

 

_____________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

In a message dated 7/21/2010 4:03:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dailyde...@ucc.org writes:

Having trouble viewing this message? View it in your browser.

July 21, 2010 Is Jesus God? Excerpt from John 6:41-51 Jesus said, "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from God comes to me." Reflection by William C. Green Jesus is not God, but God is like Jesus.  Life is full of mystery and much we cannot explain.  But in Jesus we see that, at the heart of it all, God's love pulses and often surprises us, turning many a grim situation upside down. While the church has debated the doctrine of Jesus' divinity, the New Testament is not doctrine.  And the Bible is not theology: it's an anthology of stories about God often culminating in twist endings that bring O'Henry to mind.  In these narratives we see God imperfectly, "as in a mirror dimly."  But we still see. Consider Moses, who knew nothing of doctrine or theology.  A common bush burns with something of God, turning his life upside down.  In stories like those of the prodigal son and the good Samaritan, Jesus shows us something contrary to what we'd expect: a wild son honored despite a dissolute life; an outsider showing compassion when insiders to the faith leave the victim behind. Will we, like Moses, pay closer attention to something as ordinary as a bush, like the incidental compliment of a neighbor or, say, another church council meeting?  And how have we been like the prodigal son, or his father, or that elder brother who resented the attention lavished on his wayward brother?  Can our own hearts beat with stories like those?  What do they say about the mystery and the love of God? Prayer God, may I find your love in the common bushes of my life and in other strange places. Amen.  About the Author William C. Green, a United Church of Christ minister, is the Director of Long Looking, a consultancy service specializing in fundraising and education for congregations. His new book, 52 Ways to Ignite Your Congregation: Generous Giving, has just been published.

 

[fcba%40comcast.net]

Jane,

 

How can you be in trouble? We are an inclusive church. We even include people who still believe in the Preamble to the UCC Constitution and Bylaws. Thank you for writing so clearly. I particularly liked the fact that you called him out for imposing his views on us. You are again a blessing!

 

Chris

God Is Still Laughing
http://home.comcast.net/~fcba

[Jean Easland]

Sister Jane: 10/4 on the word from Chris. God, the One in Three, expects courage from his servants not heresy. Shame on the rest of us for not being as direct as you are! Thanks--------Roger

----- Original Message -----

From: Bct...@aol.com

To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 5:57 PM

Subject: My response to today's Stillspeaking Daily Devotional for July 21: Is Jesus God?

[Cecil Prescod]

Thank you for writing your response.  I look forward to reading  a response from, and dialog with, the Rev. Green.

Cecil Charles Prescod, OCC

 

A Prayer for Pentecost

Come, thou Holy Spirit come:
and from thy celestial home
send thy light and brilliancy.
Come, thou father of the poor,
come who givest all our store.
What is filthy make thou pure,
what is wounded work its cure,
water what is parched and dry.
Gently bend the stubborn will,
warm to life the heart that's chill,
guide who goeth erringly.
Fill thy faithful who adore,
and confess thee evermore,
with thy sevenfold mystery.
Here thy grace and virtue send,
grant salvation in the end, and in heaven felicity. Amen

- From a 13th century Latin Hymn 

---

From: Bct...@aol.com
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:57:28 -0400

Subject: My response to today's Stillspeaking Daily Devotional for July 21: Is Jesus God?

To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com

---

The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. Get busy.

[Cecil Prescod]

---

Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. See how.

[jelling]

This is scary, but I am unable to reply to notes from our CC Google
email. Now I am trying to post this via the Google Group Web site.
Just so you know, I tried to send it via our email address three
times, and received a "delivery failure" notice each time.

Jane Ellingwood

__________________________________________________________

Dear CC Open Forum colleagues,

Attached below is Rev. Green's response, as it was posted on
Facebook.

I will reflect on a possible response, but I am not sure one is
possible. I would like to learn, however, how to have faithful,
intelligent, and respectful discussions with others on this subject,
and others like it.

Rev. Green says that he wants "to challenge the common views that
often go unchallenged." I am interested in examining our Trinitarian
beliefs and understanding them, and being able to express them in
theological words, as well as pastoral words. I am not one to proof-
text, and, at the same time, I am one who can see signs in Scripture
(in both Testaments) of (our) Trinitarian God.

So, I will reflect on this, and I welcome any dialogue and suggestions
here. At least the UCC had some dialogue on this too, via the
Facebook page and, evidently, judging from Rev. Green's response,
through other media too. So it's good that some UCC folks wanted to
discuss these things.

Jane
_________________________________________________________


Bill Green
Thanks to all who took time to respond to today's devotional in
messages to the office, on this Facebook page, or in e-mail on aol and
gmail! Another word on what I say about Jesus and the Biblke for those
concerned about what I believe:

Jesus is central to my faith as a Christian. I believe God shines in
and through Jesus, but no more than the ... See Moresunlight is the
sun is Jesus God. Another way to put it: Jesus is the "window" through
which we see God, without God being the window. Jesus is the Way, the
Truth, and the Life whio draws us to God; without him God remains some
kind of blur, too obscure to be drawn to, or to care about. Jesus
shows us how, under the influence of the Spirit of God, humanity
itself can regain the image in which we're all created, which Jesus
uniquely exemplifies.

About the Bible: it simply is not dogma, creed, doctrine, or theology,
and if my saying so is dogmatic than I guess that's one way of putting
it. Extracting such things from Scripture makes it not a text but a
pretext for advancing other concerns, however important, if seconday,
those, too, may be.

There are other ways to view all this. I want to challenge the common
views that often go unchallenged, or at least unexamined. One
participant in a recent workshop called much that the church and
church doctrine say "boilerplate" --somthing everyone more or less
expects to hear without giving it much thought. He may not be
representative of the rest of us, but I believe he represents more
than his opinion alone and has a good point I took to heart.

____________________________________________________________________

[Reverend Clemens]

Thank you Jane for witnessing to our faith in the Lordship of Jesus the Christ. 

----- Original Message -----

From: Bct...@aol.com

To: Confessi...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 5:57 PM

Subject: My response to today's Stillspeaking Daily Devotional for July 21: Is Jesus God?

[Wanda Lester]

This IS scary!!   The fact that his words were posted by the national church ...the United Church of CHRIST for daily devotions both terrifies and saddens me.  If I read this to my congregations on Sunday they would all walk out after the first sentence...call a meeting and throw me out and rightly so for this is not the faith we profess each Sunday....as Christians. 

 

Thank you Jane for standing up and speaking out for all of us.

Wanda

[Rev Richard Price, OCC, Abbot, Order of Corpus Christi]

If there is concern for the content of the Still Speaking Daily Devotions, I would respectfully suggest to stop using it, and turn to something that has substance and  foundations of history such as the Book of Common Prayer Daily Office, Morning Prayer Rite ll.

This is not an individual-generated collection of subjective reflections, but takes us deeply into worship of the mystery and wonder of God's presence in our lives.   And, there is no non-Trinitarian stuff to cause any upsetment, quite the contrary, in fact.

Richard

--
THE ORDER OF CORPUS CHRISTI
orderofcorpuschristi.org
+The Right Rev'd Richard H Price, OCC, Abbot
rhp...@gmail.com
215.943.7110
215.208.2886 (Mobile)
Skype: sacerdote35

[Eric Brown]

This conversation begs the question for me of not whether or not Jesus is God, but rather what did a first century CE person in the empire mean when (s)he stated that someone was God?  What did it mean to them that Octavius Augustus was God, son of God and Savior of the World and what did it mean when (s)he stated that Jesus was God, son of God and Savior of the World?

 

Had the daily reflection been prefaced by such a conversation then the reflection itself may be much more palatable (although to claim that God is like Jesus is temporarily incorrect—one might be able to say Jesus is like God, but not the other way around *given* the uniqueness of the devotions premises.

 

There are other things that this devotion and the commentary about it on this list have opened up for me.  I was led to this list by my bishop ostensibly to determine what my understanding of reform theology is by listening and participating in this conversation.  I believe that I have learned a great deal, however I wonder how much theological shorthand I’m missing…how much of what you say is based upon basic understandings that you have which you feel you don’t have to say.  For instance I see within the conversations here a confusion of mercy and grace, or really a dismissal of grace as God’s abounding love and the use of the term grace to mean the mercy of a justly wrath-filled God.  I am willing to concede, however, that there may be theological shorthand and premises that I’m missing, but in the end I’ve really come to understand that reform theology is fairly inconsistent with my understanding of a universe created by a gracious God.

 

To illumine:  about a month ago I started writing what I had learned from this group about reform theology.  I came up with this list:

The primary focus of reform theology is the perverse and degenerate nature of humanity.

Second to that primary focus is God’s mercy on us, often expressed using the term “Grace”

Actual Grace—that is God’s abounding love for us—seems to play no part in reform theology.

 

As I looked at the list of three items I thought that surely I am missing something.  Surely reform theology has to start with God and God’s relationship with us, but that’s not what I’ve read here.  That is what has led me to believe I am missing something in this conversation.

 

So, I ask, is there more to it than this?  What am I missing?  What shortcuts are you taking in your writing?  Where, if I am at all, am I missing the mark in my understanding of this theology?

 

I realize that often when I send e-mail I don’t create follow-up e-mail.  Sometimes it’s been because of my eyes (I’ve had multiple surgeries over the past few years, including medicinal implants) and they get tired.  Sometimes it’s because I’m afraid that I will enter into a conversation and it will become an argument—which I don’t want and which, although I have not experienced on this group, I have experienced on Old Catholic groups and is the main reason I am leaving the American Old-Catholic movement.  Sometimes, however, it’s because the returned questions have really given me pause to think, reflect and learn.  And finally sometimes it’s just because at times I am lazy.  The reason I write this paragraph, however, is to state that I really do want to learn and really do have follow up questions and would appreciate input on the list of what I’ve gathered here and the questions I still have.

 

Peace,

Eric

 

 

---

[fcba%40comcast.net]

Dear Eric,

 

If you have discovered from this group that:

"The primary focus of reform theology is the perverse and degenerate nature of humanity."

 

Then we in our perverse manner have led you astray.

 

Q. # 1 of the Westminster Shorter Catechism states:

"Q. What is the chief end of man?

A. Man's cheif end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever."

 

Q. # 1 of The Heidelberg Catechism states:

Q. What is your only comfort in life and indeath?

A. That I belong, both body and soul and in life and in death, not to myself, but to my faithful savior Jesus Christ..."

 

The Reformers and the Lutheran Bach often signed things "To the Glory of  God Alone." What you have pointed out that you have gotten from our theology is actually anthropology, that is what Augustine, Bernard, Calvin, Luther and Barth all taught on the nature of humanity. In this meeting you should at some point pick up that there are many who appreciate Barth's rebellion against Schleiermacher's system that was basicaly entirely anthropology. If I am one who has in any way taught you that:

 

The primary focus of reform theology is the perverse and degenerate nature of humanity.

 

please forgive me. Nothing could be farther from my mind.

 

To get an actual Reformed perspective I would recommend that your read a breif section of Calvin's INSTITUTES. Book One, chapter one on "The Knowledge of God" and chapter two on "What is it to Know God and what Purpose the Knowledge of HIm Tends." This is pages 35 through 43 (8 pages) in Battles tranlsation.

 

Chris Anderson

 

God Is Still Laughing
http://home.comcast.net/~fcba

[Thomas Dean]

Jane,

Thanks for making the comments you did.  Your reflection was right on the mark.  You and others on this forum should have the opportunity to write some of these daily devotionals for the UCC.  I wonder how the writers are chosen.  There seems to be a certain core of writers.  Some are consistently good, some don't have much to add to the text, and others, as you pointed out, have a tendancy stray from the historic reformed and biblical faith we say we profess.

Keep up the good work,

Tom Dean

[John Cedarleaf]

Jane,
Good job and hang in there! Bill Green needs to check out the UCC constitution and what it says about the creeds and confessions.

John

[John Cedarleaf]

Richard,
Good suggestion. You could also use,as I do, "For all the Saints" published byAmecian Lutheran Publicity Bureau. I think Chris uses this too. Unfortunately they are not published, but I've gotten it through Amazon.

John

[fcba%40comcast.net]

John,

 

I happen to know that Abbot Richard does use FOR ALL THE SAINTS. I am very sad that it is no longer published. I absolutely love it.

 

Chris

God Is Still Laughing
http://home.comcast.net/~fcba

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Cedarleaf" <jn...@choiceonemail.com>
To: confessi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 5:21:13 PM
Subject: Re: My response to today's Stillspeaking Daily Devotional for July         21: Is Jesus God?

[Hugh Graham]

Chris,

According to the ALPB website they are still publishing and selling 'For All the Saints'.

http://www.alpb.org/for_all_the_saints.html

Hugh graham

[Rev Richard Price, OCC, Abbot, Order of Corpus Christi]

John:

Thank you.  I have used "For All The Saints" for several years and with you would recommend it along with "The Liturgy of the Hours" and the Benedictine Short Breviary.  Also, "The Daily Prayer of the Church" recently published by Lutheran University Press.

Eric:

In addition to Christopher's suggestions, I would urge the writings of the Mercersburg Fathers, John Williamson Nevin and Philip Schaff.

Richard

[Thomas Dean]

Hugh, Chris, Richard, and John,

I checked out the cost of "For All the Saints", and it's not cheap.  It's listed for $130.00.  Is it worth it?  Does it transform your prayer life and become a guide that does a lot for moving us into prayer?

Tom

[fcba%40comcast.net]

Tom,

 

I got hooked by getting one volume at half price then I was lucky enough to get the all four volumes at 1$ apeice at a LTS booksale!!!! (I gave the one I had to a friend.) They are expensive but they have the scripture readings and the best ecumenical collection of Christian writers I have ever seen.

 

Chris

God Is Still Laughing
http://home.comcast.net/~fcba

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Dean" <tfde...@gmail.com>
To: confessi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 5:59:37 PM
Subject: Re: My response to today's Stillspeaking Daily Devotional for July         21: Is Jesus God?

[Rev Richard Price, OCC, Abbot, Order of Corpus Christi]

I have found it to be a worthwhile investment.

Richard

[Gabe]

Jane,

Good for you. I just saw the Stillspeaking devotional in question and
sent the email below.


--Gabe

................................................................................
Andy,

How do I register an opinion about the July 21 devotional by William
Green? Hopefully the WCC (“Jesus Christ as God and Savior” charter)
folk will not see this disappointing show of theological insipidity
and ecumenical insensitivity. I have heard that William Green is a
good guy but he is way out of his depth on this subject. As you know
the Person of Christ as fully human, fully God and truly one (thus the
Chalcedonian Formula of 451) is one of several key teachings shared by
the church universal. Even our “testimony not test” Church, very much
part of the WCC, has in our Book of Worship the Nicene opposite of
Green’s comments (“true God from true God”) This is not a question of
“theology” burdening us with its abstractions but of one theology
being transmitted in a devotional specifically rejecting a classic
Christian teaching. I hope some alternative can be shared up the path.

--Gabe

PS Just figured out that it might be Felix Carrion, one of my old
students. J Might as well add another of my old students, Stephen
Sterner

On Jul 21, 6:57 pm, Bctj...@aol.com wrote:
> Dear CC Open Forum colleagues,
>
> Now I am in big trouble, because I have posted a critical  response to the
> UCC's daily devotional for today, using the Facebook page.   I have copied
> my response directly below, and the devotional reflection further  below.  I
> thought I'd share it with you, since you know of my Trinitarian  beliefs and
> theology.
>
> Jane
>
> From Facebook:  
>

> _Jane Ellingwood_ (http://www.facebook.com/jane.ellingwood)  

> I was very surprised at William Green's  reflection on today's passage from
> John. First, Rev. Green, you imposed your  views on us, and second, your
> commentary was only very loosely connected to this  very challenging, and
> deeply theological, passage from the Gospel of John. I  believe fully in the
> Trinity. I believe that Jesus is God. He is  called "my Lord and my God!" by
> Thomas, in  John 20:28. And, in a close parallel to John 6:46, which is part
> of the reading  for today, it says in the Prologue to John, in 1:18, that,
> "No one has ever seen  God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the
> Father's heart, who has made  him known," and some texts of this verse are even
> clearer on the point that this  is about God. This is biblical theology. It's
> also theology from the Nicene  Creed, which is the most ecumenical creed of
> the Church, and from Chalcedon,  which someone has already pointed out here.
> I usually very much appreciate  reading the Daily Devotionals, but in this
> case, I am deeply concerned that an  ordained minister would start a
> devotional with the statement, "Jesus is not  God." I prefer not to have someone
> dictate that to me. I tried to say "I  believe" in this posting here, and the
> UCC does accept the historical  confessions of faith of the church.
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> _________
>
> In a message dated 7/21/2010 4:03:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
>

> dailydevotio...@ucc.org writes:
>
> Having trouble viewing this message? _View it in your  browser._
> (http://act.ucc.org/site/R?i=RJxYBKil0IiFf9pTOPy5Sg..)    
>
>  (http://act.ucc.org/site/R?i=YSLzuL_sp4BWPZwbEytvbQ..)

>
> July 21,  2010
> Is Jesus  God?

> Excerpt from _John  6:41-51
>
> _ (http://act.ucc.org/site/R?i=8JhF-4HQnXIan1s76SZ_sQ..) Jesus said, "It is

> strange places.  Amen.           About the  Author

> William C. Green, a United Church  of Christ minister, is the Director of

> _Long Looking_ (http://act.ucc.org/site/R?i=B0CvBxQ8mqlAa4Tx8OSXFw..) , a

> consultancy service  specializing in fundraising and education for  

> congregations. His new book, _52 Ways to Ignite Your Congregation:  Generous Giving_
> (http://act.ucc.org/site/R?i=H01lTJoac8Uc8rpmwaULng..) , has just been  
> published.

[Eric Brown]

While this question was not addressed to me, I want to chime in with a resounding “YES”  It’s a great set of four books because of the inclusion of a fourth, non-scriptural passage that is related to one of the daily readings, which is similar to what is found in the Roman Divine office, except that the reading from “For All the Saints” is from the Church catholic, so you will even have readings (well, at least one) from someone like Vincent van Gogh.  It’s easy to use and since it’s in four volumes you only have to deal with a small book to carry with you where ever you go.

 

 

---

From: confessi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:confessi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Dean

Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 6:00 PM
To: confessi...@googlegroups.com

[John Cedarleaf]

Tom,
Yes it is not cheap! I believe the $130 is for all the volumes. Everything is in one place and the fourth readings are usually excellent. I'mnot sure that this or that book or system will transform your prayer life; but it is an aid and it does connect us to the one holy catholic and apostolic church, rather than individual riffs on lessons.

John

[Richard Floyd]

Confessors,

Good for Jane to voice her faithful response to a clearly unsound teaching.

Some quick thoughts. The “Jesus is not God” dogma is not new and quite prevalent among UCC clergy in my experience. Years ago during the New Century Hymnal debate, several clergy said we should eliminate the masculine pronouns in the hymn “Crown Him with Many Crowns.” Some of us pointed out that they refer to Jesus, who all agree was male. They said, “No, it is about God, and Jesus is not God.” So there.

Some of this is well thought-out dismissal of the main church's traditions, but most of it is just bad theology, sadly, because many of our clergy don't really care about theology, and frankly are ignorant about it. Green's dismissal of creeds and dogma is the standard line, and Chris is right that this too is, of course, a dogma.

The Daily Devotional is widely read, especially by lay people. Several members of my family read it daily, and I know for many it is their primary devotional, and their only window into the UCC.

We can rejoice that it is accessible and often well written and insightful. It is one of the best things to have come out of Cleveland in a long time, and I am loath to be too critical of it for that reason.

Yet, some of it is poorly written and theologically shoddy. I have said this to several of my friends who write for it, and the response is that it is a diverse community of writers with a variety of views.

A couple of the writers have been picking on the atonement lately, and it is clear to me that they just don't know what they are talking about.

So I read the writers I like, and just don't read the ones I don't. There is a social contract between writers and readers based on trust. When that trust is broken, they lose me.

Jane has modeled a good way to respond. If one has the time and the energy to challenge something wrong, then we engage in a conversation for the upbuilding of the church and the sharpening of its theological discourse. That is one of the aims of Confessing Christ. And I think that because so many laity read it, we should challenge clearly heterodox views and lovingly raise up that the fact that these are not the beliefs and teaching of the Christian church in its main channels. The Facebook Page is the best place to do this, so people can see it.

I know many of the writers of the Devotional care deeply about theology, and would welcome the UCC raising the bar on how we talk about it.

Rick

[Rev Richard Price, OCC, Abbot, Order of Corpus Christi]

Thank you, Richard, for you excellent "quick thoughts" regarding the discussion of the UCC devotional.

However, I am left to wonder if this "devotional" is the all there is for many who read it daily.  Is a verse or two of scripture, a reflection or commentary that may or may not be biblically and/or theologically sound, and a brief line of prayer sufficient for  daily spiritual discipline?

I suggest that daily spiritual disciplines require significantly more time and effort for reading of scripture, psalms, and a variety of prayers such as thanksgiving, confession, intercession, along with prayers for the season of the church year, and a time of silence for reflection and meditation.

I hope that many who use the UCC devotional do so as part of an extensive daily discipline, and perhaps some of you might share that with this group.

+ Richard

[Herb Davis]

Dear Confessors, Just got back from a little vacation and the wedding of a
grand daughter in PA. Enjoyed the insights on Greene's daily devotion and
fully support Jane's response. Since I don't read the daily devotion I
missed the post on the UCC page. I assume in a institution without any
boundaries anything goes but orthodoxy. Problem is that because anything
goes people cannot trust anyone. Any day might bring a different message, a
new insight which often confuses members. For those who like no boundaries
this is good news but most of us expect people we can trust.

It is interesting that Rev.. Greene who is in fund raising denies the
affirmation of creation that is basic to the doctrine of incarnation (very
God of very God). The early Christians rejected a spirituality that was
opposed to materialism and affirmed the goodness of the material. In fact
the HC confesses that flesh is already in heaven because of the bodily
ascension of Christ. Since Rev. Greene rejects the affirmation of creation
I will only send the spiritual and keep the material. Herb

[fcba%40comcast.net]

God Is Still Laughing
http://home.comcast.net/~fcba

"Since Rev. Greene rejects the affirmation of creation
I will only send the spiritual  and keep the material. Herb"

 

Herb,

 

How is that you never wrote a joke book?

 

Chris

[Matt]

Abbot Richard,

Even as someone who tries to follow a rigorous daily discipline of
prayer, meditation and study, I freely admit that I sometimes
sacrifice substance for something I can read on my PDA.
Unfortunately, we lag far behind our evangelical sisters and brothers
when it comes to using the Internet to spread the Gospel.

The Catholic daily office is a available at universalis.org, and
Mission St. Clare and the Society of St. Francis each publish
different version of the Anglican office. Universalis also offers a
downloadable version of the office for most operating systems (but not
mine).

Are you (or is anyone else) aware of other good online prayer
resources? So far, I've found nothing that compares to the short
Benedictine breviary.

Like you, Abbot Richard, I'm disappointed that (to my knowledge) the
National Office produces only these brief devotionals, and does not
offer resources for lay people (like me) who would welcome the
challenge to make a deeper, more meaningful commitment to daily
prayer.

Peace,
Matt


On Jul 23, 7:33 pm, "Rev Richard Price, OCC, Abbot, Order of Corpus

[Eric Brown]

Uhmmmm.... http://www.universalis.com/ the .org is a "one God, many paths"
site.
E

-----Original Message-----
From: confessi...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:confessi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 10:48 PM
To: Confessing Christ Open Forum
Subject: Re: My response to today's Stillspeaking Daily Devotional for July
21: Is Jesus God?

[Jean Easland]

Matt: WE ARE AN EVANGELICAL CHURCH, IT IS JUST THAT AMNESIA ABOUNDS INSTEAD
OF GRACE! Many of our pastors and congregations are throwing away a rich
opportunity to reach the LOST by squabbling over useless things and words.
THE HARVEST FIELD ARE RIPE-----What in the world ARE we thinking. I did a
funeral Friday for a full term still born child, as I asked the congregated
to say the Lords prayer with me I prayed alone! EANGELISM IS THE NUMBER ONE
WORK OF EVERY CHURCH those who refuse will simply suffer a slow death.
Blessings Roger

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt" <mau...@gmail.com>
To: "Confessing Christ Open Forum" <confessi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: My response to today's Stillspeaking Daily Devotional for July
21: Is Jesus God?

Abbot Richard,

Peace,
Matt

> > Some quick thoughts. The �Jesus is not God� dogma is not new and quite

> > prevalent among UCC clergy in my experience. Years ago during the New
> > Century Hymnal debate, several clergy said we should eliminate the
> > masculine

> > pronouns in the hymn �Crown Him with Many Crowns.� Some of us pointed
> > out
> > that they refer to Jesus, who all agree was male. They said, �No, it is
> > about God, and Jesus is not God.� So there.

> > > Green? Hopefully the WCC (�Jesus Christ as God and Savior� charter)

> > > folk will not see this disappointing show of theological insipidity
> > > and ecumenical insensitivity. I have heard that William Green is a
> > > good guy but he is way out of his depth on this subject. As you know
> > > the Person of Christ as fully human, fully God and truly one (thus the
> > > Chalcedonian Formula of 451) is one of several key teachings shared by

> > > the church universal. Even our �testimony not test� Church, very much

> > > part of the WCC, has in our Book of Worship the Nicene opposite of

> > > Green�s comments (�true God from true God�) This is not a question of
> > > �theology� burdening us with its abstractions but of one theology

[Matt]

You're absolutely right, Roger. I was using "evangelical" in the
small-e, secular sense.

> > > Some quick thoughts. The Jesus is not God dogma is not new and quite

> > > prevalent among UCC clergy in my experience. Years ago during the New
> > > Century Hymnal debate, several clergy said we should eliminate the
> > > masculine

> > > pronouns in the hymn Crown Him with Many Crowns. Some of us pointed
> > > out
> > > that they refer to Jesus, who all agree was male. They said, No, it is
> > > about God, and Jesus is not God. So there.

> > > > Green? Hopefully the WCC ( Jesus Christ as God and Savior charter)

> > > > folk will not see this disappointing show of theological insipidity
> > > > and ecumenical insensitivity. I have heard that William Green is a
> > > > good guy but he is way out of his depth on this subject. As you know
> > > > the Person of Christ as fully human, fully God and truly one (thus the
> > > > Chalcedonian Formula of 451) is one of several key teachings shared by

> > > > the church universal. Even our testimony not test Church, very much

> > > > part of the WCC, has in our Book of Worship the Nicene opposite of

> > > > Green s comments ( true God from true God ) This is not a question of
> > > > theology burdening us with its abstractions but of one theology

> ...
>
> read more »

[Rev Richard Price, OCC, Abbot, Order of Corpus Christi]

Yes, we are (or should be if the tradition was understood) evangelical and catholic.  But many have taken up to go their own way, that which satisfies them, that which eliminates any sense of the sacred and the holy, and without acknowledgement  or understanding of that which is represented by a "denomination" is not the whole church, but only a small part of what it is to be the Church of Jesus Christ.

Richard

[Herb Davis]

Dear Jane, Good response to Mr. Greene. It is strange that someone
whose calling is to raise money rejects the incarnation, the
affirmation of creation, materialism. For the Word to become flesh
is the rejection on all this spiritual goodness and a clear call to
embrace the creation at good, including money. Why the HC claims
that in Jesus Christ flesh is already in heaven. At the recent
Confessing Christ steering committee meeting we affirmed the many
good theological signs evident in the Vitality Ministries. It is
strange how Mr. Greene distortion of the faith is so easily
acceptable, but maybe that is true of an inclusive organization there
is no limits, no boundaries, and that allows me to just focus on the
spiritual and reject materialism especially money when it comes to
fund raising. I am just going to say my prayers. Thanks again. Herb

[Willis E. Elliott]

John, Jane, et al.

 

Thank you for your personal attacks on Wm. Green's in-your-face antitrinitarianism.

1

In our OpenForum, I've long pled for personal attacks naming the alleged deviant.  Drowsy people don't come alert when confronted by one IDEA attaching another IDEA, but they do when one incarnate idea with a personal name attacks another incarnate idea with a personal name - in this case, the Ellingwood idea attacking the Green idea.

2

I've not been in on this personal attack, so I feel free to address the CC & Open Forum problem of IMPERSONALITY.  America, some historians have said, is the only country founded on propositions (I add) in dialectic - propositions fought for/against by human beings whose very names call to the mind of the historically informed those propositions.  What a world-historical valuable fight.  So exciting!

3

Our OpenForum was designed to encourage, in the UCC. time-span theologizing - thinking that's (1) faithful to God's revelation through Scripture / creeds / confessions, (2) responsive to present tension-points in our UCC, the Ecumene, & "the world," & (3) prayerfully & exploratively open to the Holy Spirit's leading toward God's future (the Kingdom full-come).

We had in mind, as one model, the (1934) Barmen Declaration, with a "no" list as precise as its "yes" list - both addressed to what was called "the German Christians" (the non-Hitler-resisting clergy in the German state church).  At this time-distance, the yes & no groups seem impersonal; but at the time, how personal (with personal names!) it all was!

4

My personal experience of CC & Open Forum has been no response to my personal (named) attacks on anybody''s idea or action.  I couldn't break the desultory, debilitating, drowsy making tabu; but it seems Jane has!  If so, we're making progress.

5

The essence of the tabu, as I see it, has been the unwillingness to name deviants (etymologically, strayers from the way [persons who've gotten off the path]).  This tabu is itself a deviance from our Christian heritage, in which people's feelings were considered of less weight that the truth.  Of course while it's possible that "collateral damage" will be done a person who's idea/opinion/belief/conviction is attacked, it's as possible that that person will be damaged by neglect (by being dfeprived of this opportunity to reconsider a positon) - that others will be deprived of this spectacle of this struggle for (& thus honoring of) truth.  The NT instructs us not to speak love but to speak truth, lovingly: "speaking the truth in love" (Eph.4.15 - against "lies" [in the previous vs.]).  A sentimental culture considers the intellectual struggle for truth (the clashing of minds) in itself a violation of love, but it need not be - in Christ, must not be.  While there's nothing impersonal about love, there's nothing personal about truth.  Immature persons are unable to distinguish between an attack on one's

idea/opiniion/conviction/belief/interpretation & an attack on one's person ("a personal attack") - i.e., unable to deal impersonally with issues of truth/fact

6

An ironic comparison: In reading Jn.1, "Faye" (a nonChristian student of our son Bill in a university in China) strayed ONTO

the Christian Way (giving a trinitarian reading to this chapter, as I did in responding to Bill's suggestion that I respond to him on her project - & I forwarded my response & her paper to Open Forum).  Green, in commenting on Jn.6.41-51 (46 being, as Jane says, "a close Parallel to Jn.1:18"), reversed this: he strayed OFF the Way in giving a NONtrinitarian reading.

 

Sorry I didn't get this to you earlier!  After putting it in "Drafts," I got hit by some health issues & fell behind in emailing.

 

Grace and peace--

Willis

----- Original Message -----

From: John Cedarleaf

To: confessi...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 4:13 PM

Subject: Re: My response to today's Stillspeaking Daily Devotional for July 21: Is Jesus God?

[Jean Easland]

Father: You hit the very nerve that has made pastoral ministry so treacherous by identifying the shift between the weight of feelings vs. truth. Your thinking supports the article entitled, "The Church Gone Wild" that somebody put on here. Young pastors need training in this, so do us old ones. Thanks for your lazy brain busting and Jesus nail driving words. ----- Roger