Need ISP for SCO OpenServer
Transpower
I now have a situation where it would be desirable to directly connect SCO to
the
Internet without using MS Windows. The software should run in X-Windows
without a hassle. Does anyone know of such a provider? What are the monthly
rates?
Regards,
Ronald W. Satz
SCO Authorized and Microsoft Certified Systems Engineering
Transpower Corporation
trans...@aol.com
Marc Grober
will allow you to connect your server and its network to the net? With a CISCO
and some bandwidth you should be able to get that locally anywhere. Or are you
looking for an ISP that can provide access via a UW box on the ISP side....
Transpower
system. The communication software should be very friendly and work with the
UNIX version of Netscape Communicator 4.
Regards,
RWS
trans...@aol.com
Transpower
just a few hits, none of which panned out.
My client is in the Philadelphia area. I simply assumed there would be some
national ISP with OpenServer software for dial-up access. Looks like this may
be tough to find.
Regards,
Ronald W. Satz
trans...@aol.com
Kenneth McCormick
I don't know of any ISP's that provide connection software for a unix OS like
they do for Windows. What you need on the client side is already available
with the modern os's (5.0.x and 7.x.x) and is called ppp or mstppp.
You need to configure it which is a bit tricky, but http://www.aplawrence.com/
can help, and you can always search dejanews for hit on this.
From my experience, Earthlink works (though you may need to decrease your mtu),
and AT&T Worldnet doesn't.
Kenneth
Jean-Pierre Radley
| Normally I use MS Windows and AOL under Merge for Internet access from SCO.
| I now have a situation where it would be desirable to directly connect SCO to
| the
| Internet without using MS Windows. The software should run in X-Windows
| without a hassle. Does anyone know of such a provider? What are the monthly
| rates?
SCO has been connected to the Internet since ~1987, so I don't think your
help will be required. :-)
Have you noticed me post anything anywhere on the 'net in the last five
or six years? Anything you saw was written with vi on one or another
SCO Operating System, and that Operating System used a PPP connection to
an ISP to distribute my words.
Is there an ISP which does not offer PPP connections? Then avoid that
one, and look for all the others.
As to what "the" software is, we cannot guess, tell us what you mean.
--
Jean-Pierre Radley <j...@jpr.com> XC/XT Custodian Sysop, CompuServe SCOForum
Jean-Pierre Radley
| I tried www.thelist.com. I searched for SCO, OpenServer, and X-Windows. I got
| just a few hits, none of which panned out.
|
| My client is in the Philadelphia area. I simply assumed there would be some
| national ISP with OpenServer software for dial-up access. Looks like this may
| be tough to find.
Nonsense. Just call up and get an account. There is NO requirement
that your ISP run the same operating system as you are running.
Tony Lawrence
> Is there an ISP which does not offer PPP connections? Then avoid that
> one, and look for all the others.
No, but there are isp's who are Microsoft centric, and if
you aren't experienced at setting up PPP on SCO, you sure as
hell aren't going to get any help from them. Therefore I
think it is an excellent idea to avoid ISP's who are not
running some variant of Unix for that reason alone, and I'd
also add that since NT security seems to be in far worse
shape than Unix, that would be another good reason to avoid
ISP's offering only that.
--
Tony Lawrence (to...@aplawrence.com)
SCO articles, help, book reviews, tests,
job listings and more : http://www.aplawrence.com
Transpower
I do have PPP setup (and did that years ago), but for the convenience of the
staff of the client I would like to have the connection software be in
X-Windows and look like AOL or CompuServe. I don't really care what the ISP is
running, although I agree that UNIX experience would be desirable. I know that
AT&T Worldnet doesn't work. Heck, AOL doesn't have a native version of its
software for Windows NT, let alone for OpenServer; we have to use its Windows
3.1 version for NT! So, again I ask is there anybody out there with connection
software for OpenServer which, after loading, looks and feels like AOL or
Compuserve?
Regards,
RWS
trans...@aol.com
Brian K. White
>
> I tried www.thelist.com. I searched for SCO, OpenServer, and X-Windows. I got
> just a few hits, none of which panned out.
>
> My client is in the Philadelphia area. I simply assumed there would be some
> national ISP with OpenServer software for dial-up access. Looks like this may
> be tough to find.
>
You just want any ordinary local ISP that offers PPP access. that is
virtually *all* of them. "dial up networking" in Windows is really just
PPP. (this is not so for proprietary services like AOL)
if a service says it offers "shell accounts" you don't actually need
that, but it won't hurt anything.
as for the client software. it is *not* friendly. Sorry. Get someone to
port X-ISP or kppp, or some such to sco open server. they are friendly
PPP connection programs. (everyone else: yes I know they are obscenely
limited in that they only think there is one ppp connection on a box, I
did say 'port' :) ) there are actually a ton of ppp connection controler
programs out there for linux/bsd/solaris if you really want to consider
paying someone to port one. pick from a bigger selection that those two
:)
scoadmin *looks* friendly. It's not. You go around and around and
around and the connection never works. it's not clear what you should be
entering in the various blanks, and more importantly, what you should be
leaving *blank*
I found these directions to be very easy to follow, and accurate to life
when I followed them, and got my connection going in about an hour.
http://www.aplawrence.com/Unixart/quickppp.shtml
I am posting this note using netscape, via just such a connection, on a
SCO 5.0.5 box
Admittedly, I've been using Linux and Xenix for years, and maybe I
wasn't starting with as little background as you seem to be, but I am
baby-new to 5.0.5, or any sco product besides xenix, and since xenix had
no networking (it was extra and rare) all networking related features of
Open Server are new to me, since Linux is completely different.
What I needed to know, to follow those directions, was
* how to edit a text file
* the same details of my ISP account I'd have to know for windows or
linux, namely
Phone number
account name
account password
default gateway (IP or symbolic) \often the same
DNS server (IP or symbolic) /
* how to use scoadmin to add PPP to the kernel, and to add TCP/IP to
PPP. That was easy enough to do just by playing with scoadmin, but the
above site includes help with that too.
--
Brian~
Brian K. White
no.
Brian K. White
actually, you can 'roll your own'
if you know how to raise and lower a ppp connection, then fine, make
your client an 'up' and a 'down' script, add a couple of nice icons to
the window manager of your choice that run those scripts, preconfigure
netscape with a nice content-by-Fisher-Price home page, you can even set
up an AOL account that you access via your ppp account if you like AOL
enough to pay for two ISP accounts every month just to have it. top it
off by configuring netscape with the ppp isp's mail and news servers,
and the clients login info.
Want to get really slick without working hard at it? download "tkmess"
and use that in your up/down scripts. Can actually just be one script
then, with up and down buttons. then the script can notify the user in a
nice way, that the connection is now up, or it is now down, and can even
include automatically firing up netscape once the connection is up, and
automatically hanging up the connection when you close netscape, just
like darling AOL. *gag*
Richard Seeder
>
> Thanks for the responses so far.
> I do have PPP setup (and did that years ago), but for the convenience of the
> staff of the client I would like to have the connection software be in
> X-Windows and look like AOL or CompuServe. I don't really care what the ISP is
> running, although I agree that UNIX experience would be desirable. I know that
> AT&T Worldnet doesn't work. Heck, AOL doesn't have a native version of its
This is incorrect. We have connected through Worldnet all along (since
early 1997). If you are using MSTPPP the chap authentication requires
you to use "*" as each Worldnet connection has its own name, but
otherwise it works just fine.
> software for Windows NT, let alone for OpenServer; we have to use its Windows
> 3.1 version for NT! So, again I ask is there anybody out there with connection
> software for OpenServer which, after loading, looks and feels like AOL or
> Compuserve?
>
> Regards,
> RWS
> trans...@aol.com
Just my two cents, here, as long as I'm at it. Most ISP service rep's
eyes will glaze over (you can actually hear this over the phone) if you
mention that you are connecting from a Unix machine. For a little more
money, using a router (Cisco, WebRamp, whatever) with all of the
connection protocols built-in will save you a considerable amount of
aggravation and time, while providing assorted, handy, additional
features.
--
Richard Seeder
aa...@worldnet.att.net
Transpower
it might be possible to connect from a UNIX box, they certainly would not
support such a connection. So I call your bluff. Send me an AT&T Worldnet
diskette or CD specifically made for SCO OpenServer which will automatically
install in Software Manager, configure everything, and connect. It should
leave a pretty icon on the X-desktop and work perfectly with Netscape
Communicator 4.
Richard Seeder
I never said that there was a diskette or CD from which you could
install and end up with pretty icons. What I said was, we use Worldnet
from Unix with no problems (yes, using Communicator on the desktop). As
it happens, we currently use a WebRamp router to make the connection,
but originally used MSTPPP. As an earlier post pointed out, if you want
icons, you have to make them yourself.
And, naturally, the Worldnet rep's eyes will glaze over if you ask about
Unix (Hint: don't mention that you are using Unix).
--
Richard Seeder
aa...@worldnet.att.net
Brian K. White
>
> The last time I contacted AT&T Worldnet, the folks there told me that although
> it might be possible to connect from a UNIX box, they certainly would not
> support such a connection. So I call your bluff. Send me an AT&T Worldnet
> diskette or CD specifically made for SCO OpenServer which will automatically
> install in Software Manager, configure everything, and connect. It should
> leave a pretty icon on the X-desktop and work perfectly with Netscape
> Communicator 4.
>
> Regards,
> Ronald W. Satz
> SCO Authorized and Microsoft Certified Systems Engineering
> Transpower Corporation
> trans...@aol.com
what drugs are *you* on ?
Kenneth McCormick
Since when is it ok to accuse people of being on drugs when they post
something that you don't understand/like/appreciate? Since jpr did it
two weeks ago? I didn't say anything then, but you two have issues
which you need to face that have nothing to do with computers and
this ng.
Now, the facts.
1) his sig says mcse
2) his email says aol
No need say anymore, wouldn't you agree?
Kenny
Brian K. White
>
> Transpower wrote:
> >
> > The last time I contacted AT&T Worldnet, the folks there told me that although
> > it might be possible to connect from a UNIX box, they certainly would not
> > support such a connection. So I call your bluff. Send me an AT&T Worldnet
> > diskette or CD specifically made for SCO OpenServer which will automatically
> > install in Software Manager, configure everything, and connect. It should
> > leave a pretty icon on the X-desktop and work perfectly with Netscape
> > Communicator 4.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Ronald W. Satz
> > SCO Authorized and Microsoft Certified Systems Engineering
> > Transpower Corporation
> > trans...@aol.com
>
> what drugs are *you* on ?
let me expand a trifle...
You are asking for something to be done in the unix environment that
that you see being done in the Windows environment.
The problem is, the difference between the two environments is not just
a name. The reason you can have such seamless automatic works the same
way every time with only one button to learn how to push packages such
as an AOL install CD, is because every Windows machine is more or less
garunteed to be configured exactly the same. That is not an assumtion
you can make in unix. doing so cripples a product that is intended for
use on unix. AOL knows ahead of time how to set up a menu entry and a
desktop icon, and even a cute little status display in the system tray
because all of AOL's market is using one of ony a trivially small number
of versions of the same window manager. (the same applies for the mac
version)
there are at least half a dozen different X servers that could run on
sco, and for each of them, a long string of versions stretching back
into greater and greater incompatibility. then, after youve selected a
range of x servers to officially support, there are *dozens* of window
managers that could be running. dozens just counting the not-to-obscure
ones! Which one(s) would you bestow support for on the CD?
I don't think you'd find any particular one or few of them that could be
said to contain the lions share of desktops. some are vastly more
popular than others, but, because there is so many, I bet the most
popular one is not a very big percent of the total of all X installs.
each window manager has it's own completely unique way of being
configured by default, it's own config files located according to it's
authors idea of filesystem aesthetics, most of them support the image
format .xpm for icons, but the sizes, number of colors allowed, and even
naming conventions beleive it or not are all over the map. then too,
that is just considering their default configuration, when really, most
if not all of them can be configured wildly mutated from the default.
Files could literally be anywhere, could be named anything...heck, they
could be right in the default location but have zero effect because
nothing is set up to look at them, like my own ODT files.
So, what you *do* have is exactly what you need.
Here is what you have:
1) PPP driver that works by running a unix command, or a few commands in
sequence, which can be plopped in a shell script in 2 seconds and thus,
back to one command.
PPP is PPP is PPP, almost every rinky-dink ISP uses it for making
connections, even if their phone tech support kid doesn't know that
Windows DUN is just PPP.
2) A window manager, which has usually some form of not too hard to
figure out way of adding a line in a config file, which will correspond
to a new menu entry or button somewhere on the desktop when you re-start
the window manager. In some cases, such as kde, you don't even have to
edit the config file with a text editor, or exit & restart the X
session. Generally every menu entry or desktop button or icon can be
defined to perform any arbitrary command when clicked, sometimes the
same object can be defined to perform different things when
right/middle/chord/left/double/shift clicked.
3) A graphics manipulation program or two that you can use to create an
icon, if you desire, and bind it to your PPP command referenced in "1)"
and inserted into the config file referenced in "2)" gimp is readily
available, easy to use, and quite powerful even the old version that is
currently Skunkwares newest, and very easy to install in the case of
Skunkware. and even then, it doesn't create an icon for itself in the
window manager. or possibly it did for sco's default odt motif window
manager, but that was invisible and useless to me. If you had made your
theoretical AOL for Unix CD that way, you'd be in for a lot of "why
doesn't it work the stupid thing..." calls. it's actually OK in my
opinion not to try and be that automatic, so I would not be such a
caller, but, if the cover of the CD *claims* to be that simple, them you
better bet everyone you didn't think to account for will call, and that
will be almost everyone period. there aree as many different unix
configurations as there are unix installations.
4) Netscape or indeed a few other almost as gooey browsers, and a ton of
mail/news/irc/icq/gopher/ftp/archie/telnet/http/mpg-mp3 & other media
clients
since you window manager button can run any arbitrary comman, and since
you can plop a stack of arbitrary commands in a shell scipt, you can
have, with little effort, a single button on your desktop, the when
pressed, dials the ISP, waits for a working IP connection, and then
fires up netscape, which of course can automatically start loading
whatever you want upon startup. this could be local content right on the
same machine, which would come up instantly, and could be perhaps a nice
juicy page you designed that splashes your company, and provides lots of
enticing buttons that are links to cool stuff on the web, or it could be
some commercial or free web site out there that does the same thing,
whatever...
actually, if you configure the PPP driver another way, merely starting
up netscape and trying to access any non-local IP would cause the PPP
connection to be started up.
Just like Windows.
In short, it only takes a minute for you to add "pppattach <ispname>" to
your window manager config file, but that does not imply that anyone
else could do it for you except by having a human brain look at your
system and determine where & how to do it, which can't be distributed on
CD or run on current hardware. :)
You as a "SCO Authorized and Microsoft Certified Systems Engineering"
should have zero difficulty setting something like this up. If you do,
then I will not actually laugh derisively at your title, I will just
send you a quote estimate sheet for farming these tasks out to me :)
even if the client is inaccessably remote, and dial-in is not working,
it still can usually be done over the phone, and only requiring the
clients lowest-paid warm body to sit on the phone for a little while.
Yes I agree, It's not unreasonable to want to try to make things
Winows-easy for your clients. So you do it for them. For them it can
still be Windows-easy. They just click the "connect/internet" button,
and a few seconds later the connection is up and netscape is downloading
their home-page.
It took my 15 times longer to write this far into this post than it did
to *do* the things I'm describing. And I'm new to Open Server! though
I'm not new to X or the use,abuse,and configuration of window managers.
exception: It took me forever to get the PPP driver itself working, but
I know at least how to get the sipmlest crude manual connection up now,
and now that I know, I could set up that part of a new system in a
couple minutes. since I am suggesting that you as a vendor could provide
the service of making life easy for your clients anyways, that is just
one of the things you would need to do as part of the job. it is still a
small job, all things included. If I were a "SCO Authorized and
Microsoft Certified Systems Engineering" shop, I would not consider
having to know all the workings of the PPP system as well as Mourning
Star's to be an unacceptable burden.
It took me longer to get AOL working recently for a client who wanted it
on a windows 3.1 machine, than it would now for me to do the equivalent
job using PPP,Netscape, and setting up a window manager button or two on
a SCO server. *shrug* How can one say the job is impractical to have to
do, faced with that?
after all that, consider,...That is just the window manager issue. I'm
*sure* there are other issues with similar logistics problems regarding
the underlying OS, the PPP driver, the TCP driver, the serial/tty
driver, other uses of PPP on the system besides one outgoing connection,
...who knows what else. All concerns you don't have in windows because
windows is not that flexable.
Of course you didn't read this far. I don't actually claim that anyone
should or that I have expressed anything of any particular insight or
value. I merely expressed. :)
Star Office is a big download and I'm out of email and irc is dead and
i'm burned out for the moment on what I really should be doing, thus:
huge news post.
Just so you realise the birthing context.
--
Brian~
Brian K. White
>
> Recentky, li...@squonk.net said...
> |Transpower wrote:
> |>
> |> The last time I contacted AT&T Worldnet, the folks there told me that although
> |> it might be possible to connect from a UNIX box, they certainly would not
> |> support such a connection. So I call your bluff. Send me an AT&T Worldnet
> |> diskette or CD specifically made for SCO OpenServer which will automatically
> |> install in Software Manager, configure everything, and connect. It should
> |> leave a pretty icon on the X-desktop and work perfectly with Netscape
> |> Communicator 4.
> |>
> |> Regards,
> |> Ronald W. Satz
> |> SCO Authorized and Microsoft Certified Systems Engineering
> |> Transpower Corporation
> |> trans...@aol.com
> |
> |what drugs are *you* on ?
>
> something that you don't understand/like/appreciate? Since jpr did it
> two weeks ago? I didn't say anything then, but you two have issues
> which you need to face that have nothing to do with computers and
> this ng.
well, it's not as if it was a serious accusation, but I concede it was a
bit...untowards.
> Now, the facts.
> 1) his sig says mcse
> 2) his email says aol
>
> No need say anymore, wouldn't you agree?
>
> Kenny
well, you didn't need to pacify me with this to get me to admit the
unnecessity I was guilty of in the previous section, but I surely do
agree with this implication as well :)
--
Brian~
Jean-Pierre Radley
| Recentky, li...@squonk.net said...
| |Transpower wrote:
| |>
| |> The last time I contacted AT&T Worldnet, the folks there told me that although
| |> it might be possible to connect from a UNIX box, they certainly would not
| |> support such a connection. So I call your bluff. Send me an AT&T Worldnet
| |> diskette or CD specifically made for SCO OpenServer which will automatically
| |> install in Software Manager, configure everything, and connect. It should
| |> leave a pretty icon on the X-desktop and work perfectly with Netscape
| |> Communicator 4.
| |>
| |> Regards,
| |> Ronald W. Satz
| |> SCO Authorized and Microsoft Certified Systems Engineering
| |> Transpower Corporation
| |> trans...@aol.com
| |
| |what drugs are *you* on ?
|
| Since when is it ok to accuse people of being on drugs when they post
| something that you don't understand/like/appreciate? Since jpr did it
| two weeks ago? I didn't say anything then, but you two have issues
| which you need to face that have nothing to do with computers and
| this ng.
|
| 1) his sig says mcse
| 2) his email says aol
|
| No need say anymore, wouldn't you agree?
But: you've just pointed out the very drugs upon which the man is hooked!
Jeff Liebermann
<li...@squonk.net> wrote:
>> what drugs are *you* on ?
I'm on whatever pain killer the dentist injected for a root canal and
filling ceremony that still hasn't worn off after 2 days. It only
hurt when he drilled holes in my wallet. The brain feels like mush,
but I managed to do a complete 3.2v5.0.5 install with updates and
Skunkware 99 last night before falling over from terminal boredom.
SCO doesn't seem to care much about efficient installs, but there's a
reason.
>let me expand a trifle...
A trifle? You must have spent hours explaining why you need yet
another coaster. Let me try rationalizing why you don't. If you
don't mind, I'll avoid the traditional point-by-point refutation.
The name of the operating system is "Open Server", not "Open
Workstation". SCO has done an exemplary job of trashing its own
desktop market. While I don't agree with this strategy, the effects
are obvious. There's a DHCP server, but no client. The IXI desktop
is suitable for admin but not applications (when compared to CDE/KDE).
The installation ordeal has not been optimized for fast re-installs
because it's assumed SCO server software is only installed once (not
over and over like Windoze).
Now, you want the ultimate crutch cdrom to make it easy to connect to
an ISP. Suddenly, the server is now a workstation and all the
workstation features that SCO has intentionally trashed since 1995
will need to be resurrected. Obviously, you want to make it as
Windoze-like as possible. You need sound, a DHCP client, a fancy
desktop, lots of wizards, a paper clip that dances (I prefer the cat),
and lots of eye candy during the installation to keep you awake. Just
an ISP connection script would probably be too crude by comparison.
Strictly speaking, such workstation could be concocted given a market
and business case. However, methinks the ratio of servers to
workstations sold running OSR5 is rather large. Therefore, it's not
going to be a priority market. Although I want such things for
myself, my customers are not beating down the door of my office
screaming for workstation features on their servers.
My *GUESS* is that what you really want is to run AOL on OSR5. I've
never tried such an abomination, but methinks it can be done. There
is no requirement that you actually run their software. It's a fairly
standard tcp/ip stack with one difference. It requires IP ports
5190-5193 for the AOL features. I vaguely recall that it has been
spoofed on Linux using IPMasq or a proxy server.
(comments on lots of X11 window managers deleted).
1. Write the install in TCL/VTCL and it will run on any desktop. It
will look slightly different on each desktop manager, but the
functionality will be the same.
2. Write the install to run in a browser and avoid the issue
entirely. 3.2v5.0.5 ships with Netscape 4.05 (later versions
available by download).
>So, what you *do* have is exactly what you need.
You left out the modem configuration and setup. If no modem, the LAN
setup. Otherwise, you're correct.
>Just like Windows.
Why would I want OSR5 to emulate Windoze? I thought CDE was elected
to be the "standard" Unix desktop environment? Isn't fvwm95 close
enough? Do you want Microsoft to sue for look and feel violations?
MS can't sue the Linux bunch but SCO is a nice big target. (Hint: My
customers do not do OSR5 installs, but I do). Again, reading between
the lines, what methinks you want are "wizards".
>Of course you didn't read this far. I don't actually claim that anyone
>should or that I have expressed anything of any particular insight or
>value. I merely expressed. :)
I have some great drugs that might help improve brevity. It's also
bad form to self-criticize.
Another hint: The key to success in the Unix server biz is partly
understanding how all the pieces of the puzzle go together. You don't
get that by randomly clicking check-boxes in configuration dialogs and
wizards. You get it by sneaking in behind the cute front end menus
and working directly with the configuration files. One must suffer
before enlightenment and you're trying to bypass the ordeal process.
Nobody will ever write "The Joy of Unix Configuration" but that's the
only way to learn how it all works. Otherwise, OSR5 will turn into
another "What do you want to reinstall today" product where the *ONLY*
thing that works reliably is the installation and re-installation
software.
Back to the drugs. Maybe coffee will help.
--
Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
(831)421-6491 pgr (831)426-1240 fax (831)336-2558 home
http://www.cruzio.com/~jeffl WB6SSY
je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us je...@cruzio.com
Bill Vermillion
Jeff Liebermann <je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote:
>Windoze-like as possible. You need sound, a DHCP client, a fancy
>desktop, lots of wizards, a paper clip that dances (I prefer the cat),
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have heard that Melinda did that from her work with BoB?
Remeber the be-all end-all user friendly OS from MS - BoB?
--
Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com
Jeff Liebermann
Sure. I remember Bob. I even own a copy (somewhere).
It's also a funny marketting thing that I've never understood. Take
one each user, that hasn't learned anything new since high skool, and
they'll buy "Brain Surgery for the Complete Fool" books by the ton.
Yet, take the same person and stick them in front of a user interface
which treats them no better than the book, and they will scream that
it insults their intelligence.
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing some frivolity in the various SCO
products. Something like a animated and talking head picture of Doug
appearing at the beginning of an install thanking me for buying the
product and wishing me luck on surviving the installation. Perhaps
some loud Wagner to keep me awake during the install. I kinda like
xroaches (cock-roaches under all the icons) to keep things lively.
Maybe a little 1"x1" sticker that says "SCO Unix Inside" for the
server. It's 2:00am and my imagination is lacking.
Mr White wiggled out of my previous rant and never admitted that what
he's really asking for are wizards. Be careful what you wish for as
you may actually get what you deserve. Wizards are coming slowly in
various products and will continue to grow to the limits of
reliability until nobody knows what's going on behind the cute
interfaces. Already, UW 7.1 has some admin tools that don't work from
the CHARM (character based VTCL) interface and require the GUI.
However, there is hope. In my derranged opinion, I consider the
success of the Palm Pilot to be indicative of a backlash against
bloated and complex software that requires an ordeal process to learn
and a bottle of tranquilizers to use. Windoze is the worst, but Unix
and Mac are a close second. The Palm Pilot really is the "computers
for the rest of us" as extoled by Apple. Apparently, there is a
market segment that will not tolerate a steep learning curve,
disgusting reliability, and feature bloat. Perhaps Xenix for the
palmtop?
Wanna see SCO's version of small is beautiful? Grab:
http://www.cruzio.com/~jeffl/sco/nc_demo (1474560)
It's a 1.44MB floppy image. Use "dd" or RAWRITE.EXE to make a floppy.
Boot it on anything bigger than a 486DX33 with 8MB ram and have fun.
This is the Aug 97 NC Toolkit demo which SCO seems to be having some
difficulty posting to their web pile. See:
http://www.sco.com/nc
for product info.
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831.336.2558 voice
# 831.426.1240 fax http://www.cruzio.com/~jeffl
# 831.421.6491 digital_pager je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
Bill Vermillion
Jeff Liebermann <je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 04:06:01 GMT, bi...@wjv.com.REMOVEME (Bill
>Vermillion) wrote:
(re Dancing paper clips)
>>I have heard that Melinda did that from her work with BoB?
>>Remeber the be-all end-all user friendly OS from MS - BoB?
>Sure. I remember Bob. I even own a copy (somewhere).
MS was really pushing it. The local TV anchors were talking about
it. People were asking me about it - and now a great many people
have forgotten about it. There's been more than one "Wonder
Program" in this business that 6 months later makes people wonder
why it was released in the first place.
>It's also a funny marketting thing that I've never understood. Take
>one each user, that hasn't learned anything new since high skool, and
>they'll buy "Brain Surgery for the Complete Fool" books by the ton.
>Yet, take the same person and stick them in front of a user interface
>which treats them no better than the book, and they will scream that
>it insults their intelligence.
A few years back - before the "xxxx for Dummies" became so popular
a good many books had such titles as "All you need to know about
YYY". I read one comment on "All you need to know about serial
communications" that said, if it were a college text it would
be called "A brief look at serial communications".
>Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing some frivolity in the various SCO
>products. Something like a animated and talking head picture of Doug
>appearing at the beginning of an install thanking me for buying the
>product and wishing me luck on surviving the installation.
Well it's almost been done. On my NeXTStep for iNTEL 3.2, when it was
installed you had email. Click on it, and there was Steve Jobs
with a brief message. I don't recall if it was a still or video -
I suspect the former - because this was a few years ago - but it
might have been a talking head. Still loved that interface.
>Perhaps some loud Wagner to keep me awake during the install.
Well I don't if I could take listening to Brunhildes' Battle Cry
while fighting an nagging problem. I like Wagner except when
there's singing. :-)
>However, there is hope. In my derranged opinion, I consider the
>success of the Palm Pilot to be indicative of a backlash against
>bloated and complex software that requires an ordeal process to learn
>and a bottle of tranquilizers to use. Windoze is the worst, but Unix
>and Mac are a close second.
Many people forget how small and relatively fast these were.
I just finshed a Xenix to 5.0.5 upgrade. Was on a 66MHz '486.
With 8MB RAM. The bloat show up at initialization when the
450MHz PII with 10,000 RPM Cheetah drive takes much longer to boot.
>Wanna see SCO's version of small is beautiful? Grab:
> http://www.cruzio.com/~jeffl/sco/nc_demo (1474560)
>It's a 1.44MB floppy image. Use "dd" or RAWRITE.EXE to make a floppy.
>Boot it on anything bigger than a 486DX33 with 8MB ram and have fun.
>This is the Aug 97 NC Toolkit demo which SCO seems to be having some
>difficulty posting to their web pile.
You know, there are surely a lot of things like this coming out.
ISTR it was QNX (a real time Unix like OS from long ago) that has
a complete OS on a floppy. And (name slips me) from Calgary
who produced the Q-Sound product is heavily into imbedded
processing. I had one of their demos. One floppy and
you boot, and supports a modem and has a built in browser.
An early version had some NIC card support.
Locally one of the people used to transport mail to/from - back
before cheap internet access - owns a company that builds a full
ICSA certified fire-wall product. One floppy. With 16MB of RAM.
Only need to add two NIC card in a machine. A '386/'486 with
16MB RAM will handle over 30,000 addresses. I think he has more
customers in Japan and Europe than in the US. [for the truly
curious goto www.gta.com]
The single floppy OS also is popping up in at least of of the Unix
variants too.
Bill
Brian K. White
>
> On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 04:06:01 GMT, bi...@wjv.com.REMOVEME (Bill
> Vermillion) wrote:
>
> >Jeff Liebermann <je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote:
> >
> >>Windoze-like as possible. You need sound, a DHCP client, a fancy
> >>desktop, lots of wizards, a paper clip that dances (I prefer the cat),
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >Remeber the be-all end-all user friendly OS from MS - BoB?
>
> Sure. I remember Bob. I even own a copy (somewhere).
>
> one each user, that hasn't learned anything new since high skool, and
> they'll buy "Brain Surgery for the Complete Fool" books by the ton.
> Yet, take the same person and stick them in front of a user interface
> which treats them no better than the book, and they will scream that
> it insults their intelligence.
>
> products. Something like a animated and talking head picture of Doug
> appearing at the beginning of an install thanking me for buying the
> some loud Wagner to keep me awake during the install. I kinda like
> xroaches (cock-roaches under all the icons) to keep things lively.
> Maybe a little 1"x1" sticker that says "SCO Unix Inside" for the
> server. It's 2:00am and my imagination is lacking.
>
> Mr White wiggled out of my previous rant and never admitted that what
> he's really asking for are wizards. Be careful what you wish for as
Hardly. You misread or I miscommunicated, *I* do not want any such
wizards.
I was responding to the guy who wanted an AOL Cd for unix *guffaw*
I was attempting to give examples of two things 1) why there ain't no
such animal and why it's wildly impractical to imagine creating one. 2)
the fact that it's not so terribly difficult to just set up PPP +
netscape + button-in-window-manager
Maybe for end users it's too much to expect, fine, the vendor could
certainly be expected to have sufficient set it up, and the it *is* easy
for the end user.
That's my one huge grief with RedHat is how the use of rpm's for
installing software after the initial OS install is becoming so rampant.
RPM's are to me, almost the same as an install wizard. complete with it
limitations and unsafe assumptions and inability to correctly handle an
existing install of a package if it's customization has caused it to
deviate much from the way the rpm was put together. it's junk.
it's not junk, it's just half-baked. it's wonderful for initial install,
for the OS, and for any package that you have never installed before.
after that? I use them only for reference. I use midnight commander to
browse the insides of them, to check configuration, like refering to a
baseline.
> you may actually get what you deserve. Wizards are coming slowly in
> various products and will continue to grow to the limits of
> reliability until nobody knows what's going on behind the cute
> interfaces. Already, UW 7.1 has some admin tools that don't work from
> the CHARM (character based VTCL) interface and require the GUI.
see above...bleah RedHat95 I've been calling it for over a year. Goddamn
black boxes with "perl" or "gcc" pasted on the outside.
> However, there is hope. In my derranged opinion, I consider the
> success of the Palm Pilot to be indicative of a backlash against
> bloated and complex software that requires an ordeal process to learn
> and a bottle of tranquilizers to use. Windoze is the worst, but Unix
> and Mac are a close second. The Palm Pilot really is the "computers
> for the rest of us" as extoled by Apple. Apparently, there is a
> market segment that will not tolerate a steep learning curve,
> disgusting reliability, and feature bloat. Perhaps Xenix for the
> palmtop?
>
> Wanna see SCO's version of small is beautiful? Grab:
> http://www.cruzio.com/~jeffl/sco/nc_demo (1474560)
> It's a 1.44MB floppy image. Use "dd" or RAWRITE.EXE to make a floppy.
> Boot it on anything bigger than a 486DX33 with 8MB ram and have fun.
> This is the Aug 97 NC Toolkit demo which SCO seems to be having some
Jeff Liebermann
<li...@squonk.net> wrote:
>> Mr White wiggled out of my previous rant and never admitted that what
>> he's really asking for are wizards. Be careful what you wish for as
>
>Hardly. You misread or I miscommunicated, *I* do not want any such
>wizards.
>I was responding to the guy who wanted an AOL Cd for unix *guffaw*
Sorry. It was probably my fault in misinterpreting your rant in the
process of fabricating my rant.
>That's my one huge grief with RedHat is how the use of rpm's for
>installing software after the initial OS install is becoming so rampant.
>RPM's are to me, almost the same as an install wizard. complete with it
>limitations and unsafe assumptions and inability to correctly handle an
>existing install of a package if it's customization has caused it to
>deviate much from the way the rpm was put together. it's junk.
Warning: Topic Drift Ahead.
It's rather scarey when the only real product differentiation between
the various flavours of Linux is the installation program. I'm
partial to SUSE 6.2 YAST as it makes it fairly easy to add and delete
software. RPM, from the command line is hell but I've had to use it
when I was outsmarted by the smart RedHat dummy front end to RPM.
However, SCO OSR5's "custom plus" is no better. It is possible to
concoct a command line installation incantation, but I would not want
to do it that way too often. Unixware uses pkgadd. The next
generation of UW7 will use some kind of POSIX standard installation
cerimony that I really don't want to know about for fear of
accellerating my premature demise.
>see above...bleah RedHat95 I've been calling it for over a year. Goddamn
>black boxes with "perl" or "gcc" pasted on the outside.
Whatever works. The reality of installation programs is that they are
glued together as a compromise between differing and divergent
construction philosophies and packaging. Attempts to standardize
packaging has been modest. Basically, the manufacturer throws
together as much as he can, in the time available, in the best
compromise manner possible, and hopes that it will hold together until
he has time enough to fix it. A wizard is nothing more than an expect
script with graphics, running as a front end for the various install
and configure scripts.
My current conspiracy theory of computing is that features get added
faster than the bugs get fixed. This tends to create bloated
monstrosities with an every growing number of semi-permanent minor
bugs. Quality control is limited to insuring that the installation
does not destroy the customers computer. The current fashion of
collecting and operating ancient computers seems to indicate that even
those involved in the development of bloated software and flakey
hardware, are looking back for a much simpler way.
I'd rant some more but it's late, I'm hungry, and I finally got KDE to
work right on OSR5. Hint: ln .xinitrc .startxrc in your $HOME dir.
Tom Parsons
| Normally I use MS Windows and AOL under Merge for Internet access from SCO.
| I now have a situation where it would be desirable to directly connect SCO to
| the
| Internet without using MS Windows. The software should run in X-Windows
| without a hassle. Does anyone know of such a provider? What are the monthly
| rates?
|
| Ronald W. Satz
| SCO Authorized and Microsoft Certified Systems Engineering
With this signature block, you are asking this question??? Geez
SCO Authorized what?
| Transpower Corporation
| trans...@aol.com
--
==========================================================================
Tom Parsons t...@tegan.com Sysop, SCOForum-CompuServe
==========================================================================
Brian K. White
> I'd rant some more but it's late, I'm hungry, and I finally got KDE to
> work right on OSR5. Hint: ln .xinitrc .startxrc in your $HOME dir.
btdt.
It's probably an unflattering indicator of my priorities or free-time
that that's one of the first things I did was get a nicer window manager
in place and some apps & utils I like set up in it.
I've been avoiding all use of Qt (thus kde) in linux for philosophical
reasons, but when we paid $1,500 for the OS and don't have the source,
the philosphical reasons not to use Qt kinda don't apply! :) So, I'm
using kde for now on sco. AfterStep was nice but just not as handy, and
I do have to do *some* other work during the day besides configure my
desktop :) when I get the f%$#wad of libs and prerequisites compiled up
to date, I'll maybe try the latest enlightenment. Still having a problem
trying to use xfree though. want to get that working first. when
XF86Setup tries to switch to graphics mode, I do get the houndstooth
looking background screen the server makes, but it hangs at that point
and I have to kill it. the mouse pointer does move, and I do have (only
when I go to try this) the xfree /bin in the PATH before any thing else
that lives under /usr. (it's not before /bin or /etc)
Jeff Liebermann
<li...@squonk.net> wrote:
2nd Warning: More topic drift ahead.
>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
>> I'd rant some more but it's late, I'm hungry, and I finally got KDE to
>> work right on OSR5. Hint: ln .xinitrc .startxrc in your $HOME dir.
>
>btdt.
What's "BTDT"? See:
http://www.cruzio.com/~jeffl/sco/acronym.htm
for the unofficial list of SCO unique acronyms and buzzwords.
>It's probably an unflattering indicator of my priorities or free-time
>that that's one of the first things I did was get a nicer window manager
>in place and some apps & utils I like set up in it.
Welcome to the real world. That's what almost everyone does. I have
an environment dating from the days of Xenix that I use and am
comfortable. It has a 100 line ksh .profile and somewhat shorter
.kshrc files that I use everywhere. I have trouble functioning
without my aliases and kludges. I don't use X11 at any customer sites
for anything besides admin, so my X11 environment is stock SCO.
>I've been avoiding all use of Qt (thus kde) in linux for philosophical
>reasons, but when we paid $1,500 for the OS and don't have the source,
>the philosphical reasons not to use Qt kinda don't apply! :)
Yeah right. I paid $10,000 for my truck and I don't have the
blueprints to make my own spare parts. Therefore, I avoid driving it.
Methinks I could effectively drive a truck or run a computer without
spending my time redesigning the engine, or rebuilding the OS.
>I do have to do *some* other work during the day besides configure my
>desktop :) when I get the f%$#wad of libs and prerequisites compiled up
>to date, I'll maybe try the latest enlightenment.
Have fun. I'm not a programmist and have avoided programming and
porting applications intentionally. If it doesn't compile otto the
box, or my truck doesn't start, I don't dive into the source or the
blueprints and waste my time fixing things. I call a programmist or a
mechanic and let someone who knows what they're doing deal with it.
I've found programmists willing to do this for free, but have not
found an auto mechanic with a similar philosophy. This enables me to
have evenings and weekends available to do more important things like
laundry, firewood, home repair, paperwork, and cat training. Hmmm,
maybe I should try to learn programming.
>Still having a problem
>trying to use xfree though. want to get that working first. when
>XF86Setup tries to switch to graphics mode, I do get the houndstooth
>looking background screen the server makes, but it hangs at that point
>and I have to kill it. the mouse pointer does move, and I do have (only
>when I go to try this) the xfree /bin in the PATH before any thing else
>that lives under /usr. (it's not before /bin or /etc)
Dunno. I did my one good deed for software debugging last night. The
good karma should last for a few days, so if you don't mind, I'll
avoid trying to figure this one out. Good luck.
Transpower
For the record I will state that I can easily use Internet Manager to connect
to brand X ISP using PPP. This is not, however, what many of my clients want.
They already have accounts (on their Windows boxes) with AOL, CompuServe, or
AT&T Worldnet and would like the same software (or at least something similar)
to be available on their UNIX system. They would also like to be able to
easily ugrade their AOL, etc., when the next version comes out.
I've written thousands of programs in engineering, accounting, operations
research, real-time control, etc. I could write a cutesy installation script
for X-Windows, but it would be time-consuming and not really in my line of
business. I figured that someone working full-time in the ISP software sector
would have already done it.
Regards,
Ronald W. Satz, Ph.D.
Transpower Corporation
SCO Authorized and Microsoft Certified Systems Engineering
trans...@aol.com
(I'm also on CompuServe for you anti-AOL
snobs; by the way, my investment in AOL has paid off handsomely and I'm now
quite wealthy.)