mc & gpm

[Ivan Shmakov]

>>>>> Avoid9Pdf <Avoi...@gmail.com> writes:

[Cross-posting to news:comp.unix.misc, for the question at hand
isn't all that specific to either Debian GNU/Linux, or the Linux
kernel itself.]

[...]

> Why doesn't debian recognise that `gpm` & `mc` are the 2 most
> essential utilities ?

Because they aren't?

> What could be more useful that a utility that allows you to pick-up
> any text in your hand and carry it and deposit it to any locating;

There're other similar utilities, such as, e. g., GNU Screen.
On the plus side, the latter doesn't require a mouse, but
supports incremental searching instead. Not to mention that
with GNU Screen, one can move a running session from a text VT
to XTerm to SSH and back again with ease.

> and the FileManager which has survived and been refined from the
> DOS-days?

Not on my hosts. Following an advice of Victor Wagner c. 2000,
I've abandoned mc in favor of Bash. Never needed the former
ever since.

--
FSF associate member #7257

[Ivan Shmakov]

>>>>> jeff g <jeff.g...@att.net> writes:

>>>>> On 02/28/2013 08:07 AM, Ivan Shmakov wrote:

[Cross-posting to news:comp.unix.misc, for the question at hand
isn't all that specific to either Debian GNU/Linux, or the Linux
kernel itself.]

>>> and the FileManager which has survived and been refined from the
>>> DOS-days?

>> Not on my hosts. Following an advice of Victor Wagner c. 2000, I've
>> abandoned mc in favor of Bash. Never needed the former ever since.

> Pardon me for being a late comer to this thread - been away from
> lurking for a week...

> could you kindly point out what you are referring to by Bash?

> if you mean the shell, how does that compare to a file manager?

Favorably.

The problem I've had with file managers is that I'd end up
wandering through the directories, instead of doing anything
useful.

Now, my directories may easily contain some 1500 files, but it
doesn't ever get in my way. (Consider, OTOH, the experience of
going through such a directory with a "classic" file manager.)

The point is that one doesn't have to "see" something to
efficiently handle it. It's not all that dissimilar to, say,
playing guitar or piano, BTW, or touch-typing: once one looks
(or has to look) at the object, the performance degrades
instantly. Thus, I /know/ where my files are, and Bash is a
much better aid with that than a file manager could possibly be.

[Unknown]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:07:17 +0000, Ivan Shmakov wrote:

>>>>>> Avoid9Pdf <Avoi...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> [Cross-posting to news:comp.unix.misc, for the question at hand
isn't
> all that specific to either Debian GNU/Linux, or the Linux kernel
> itself.]
>
> [...]
>
> > Why doesn't debian recognise that `gpm` & `mc` are the 2 most
> > essential utilities ?
>
> Because they aren't?
>
> > What could be more useful that a utility that allows you to pick-up
> > any text in your hand and carry it and deposit it to any locating;
>
> There're other similar utilities, such as, e. g., GNU Screen. On
the
> plus side, the latter doesn't require a mouse, but supports
incremental
> searching instead. Not to mention that with GNU Screen, one can
move a
> running session from a text VT to XTerm to SSH and back again with
> ease.
>

How does that help you to copy the following text-string from some
application to a different Workspace,VT ?
ml;sjasf89wer2340-234sdknmasdl;asd2uiowerjk.asdmkasduiwer789werjklQ

> > and the FileManager which has survived and been refined from the
> > DOS-days?
>
> Not on my hosts. Following an advice of Victor Wagner c. 2000,
I've
> abandoned mc in favor of Bash. Never needed the former ever
since.

Well yes, if you limit your activities to what you can remember in detail,
you don't need a telephone directory. Sub-Saharan africa never had
writing, and they can do quite a lot, just with talking. So can the birds.

You can walk from London to NY, when the Berring is frozen, if you want to
be macho, instead of using stronger tools.

[Ivan Shmakov]

>>>>> Unknown <d...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:07:17 +0000, Ivan Shmakov wrote:
>>>>> Avoid9Pdf <Avoi...@gmail.com> writes:

[...]

>>> What could be more useful that a utility that allows you to pick-up
>>> any text in your hand and carry it and deposit it to any locating;

>> There're other similar utilities, such as, e. g., GNU Screen. On
>> the plus side, the latter doesn't require a mouse, but supports
>> incremental searching instead. Not to mention that with GNU Screen,
>> one can move a running session from a text VT to XTerm to SSH and
>> back again with ease.

> How does that help you to copy the following text-string from some
> application to a different Workspace,

Could you please clarify what do you mean by "workspace"?

> VT?

Assuming one uses GNU Screen, what'd be the benefit of using
more than one VT, ever?

[...]

--
FSF associate member #7257 http://hfday.org/

[Bit Twister]

On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 05:05:34 +0000, Ivan Shmakov wrote:
>
> Could you please clarify what do you mean by "workspace"?

I run KDE as my desktop manager which allows me to have a number of
Activities and a number of desktops in each activity. My default
login has 8 desktops (workspaces).

> Assuming one uses GNU Screen, what'd be the benefit of using
> more than one VT, ever?

An example for me would be when I am following/researching a complex
string of scripts/code. A good example is following startx.

Anytime a script executes an "exec whatever", I copy the whatever into
the mouse buffer, roll the mouse wheel forward to next
desktop/workspace, click up another xterm,
edit (paste in whatever) and continue following the code. I may launch
other xterms in that desktop/workspace which might require me to go to
the next desktop to continue following code. As I hit the end of each
script, I close the editing xterm, when all are closed, I use the
mouse wheel to go back one desktop, where I finish that level of research,
closing xterms, then moving back another desktop.

Another nice thing about using desktops, is continuous operation of
applications. My kde startup script launches several applications in
several desktops/workspaces upon login.

Desktop 1 has a 170x24+10+130 xterm watching the system log, a second xterm,
and possibly some xmessage pop ups about something I have disabled
like my Internet phone.

Desktop 2 will have my Usenet client, slrn.
Desktop 8 will have my local email client running to tell me about any
email sent to root.

I could be following a Usenet thread with a link I might want to inspect.
I click my browser shortcut, it jumps me to desktop 4, launches my browser.

I have several email accounts and have created separate linux accounts
for each one. User cron jobs run hourly checking each one. System
hourly cron job checks their mail spool, and uses xmessage to tell me
when something arrives, example, an email from my bank. Since I have
alarms set to tell me about any withdrawal over 10 cents, it is handy
to click the bank icon which jumps me to desktop 8, opens my bank
email client so I can see if I need to do something.

If so, clicking my bank shortcut, jumps me to desktop 6, launches
browser index.html which has links to my bank login screen.

Last but not least, I have pinned a 1022x5+50+935 xterm which is also
watching the system log. If something there needs root's help, I click
my root shortcut which jumps me to desktop 5.

Middle click the mouse, and I can pick any open application to go back
to doing whatever I was doing before I was interrupted.

Had I been using screen, I would be spending an inordinate amount of
time just hunting for whatever I was working on. :(

[Ivan Shmakov]

>>>>> Bit Twister <BitTw...@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>>>>> On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 05:05:34 +0000, Ivan Shmakov wrote:

[At last. And cross-posting to news:comp.terminals, just in
case.]

>>>>> What could be more useful that a utility that allows you to
>>>>> pick-up any text in your hand and carry it and deposit it to any
>>>>> locating;

[Which is GPM, http://www.nico.schottelius.org/software/gpm/.]

>>>> There're other similar utilities, such as, e. g., GNU Screen.

>>> How does that help you to copy the following text-string from some
>>> application to a different Workspace,

>> Could you please clarify what do you mean by "workspace"?

> I run KDE as my desktop manager which allows me to have a number of
> Activities and a number of desktops in each activity.

Assuming that KDE is being run under X, GPM (whose utility I've
had contested) is of no use, either.

[...]

>> Assuming one uses GNU Screen, what'd be the benefit of using more
>> than one VT, ever?

> An example for me would be when I am following/researching a complex
> string of scripts/code. A good example is following startx.

> Anytime a script executes an "exec whatever", I copy the whatever
> into the mouse buffer, roll the mouse wheel forward to next
> desktop/workspace, click up another xterm, edit (paste in whatever)
> and continue following the code.

... And all of this is done on the same VT. Presumably, it's
VT7, accessible via either Ctrl-Alt-F7 or Alt-F7 (assuming
default Linux and X keymaps.) The other VTs may be at
Ctrl-Alt-F1 through Ctrl-Alt-F6, and my guess is that they're
completely unused.

[...]

> Desktop 1 has a 170x24+10+130 xterm watching the system log, a second
> xterm, and possibly some xmessage pop ups about something I have
> disabled like my Internet phone.

> Desktop 2 will have my Usenet client, slrn. Desktop 8 will have my
> local email client running to tell me about any email sent to root.

More or less the same is possible under GNU Screen.

For instance, I have GNU Bash running in window #1, a music
player in #4, Lynx (a Web browser) in #5, and top(1) in #28.

The window #2 is for GNU Emacs (if there's to be one on the host
in question); #9 for running du(1); #10 .. #14 for shells in
chroot environments, via schroot(1); and #32 .. #39 are for SSH
clients.

[...]

> I have several email accounts and have created separate linux
> accounts for each one.

(Which doesn't seem like a particularly clever solution to me.)

[...]

> Middle click the mouse, and I can pick any open application to go
> back to doing whatever I was doing before I was interrupted.

C-a " in Screen does the same for me. And without any need to
switch between the keyboard and the mouse.

> Had I been using screen, I would be spending an inordinate amount of
> time just hunting for whatever I was working on. :(

Perhaps. But I don't.

[Emanuel Berg]

Ivan Shmakov <onei...@gmail.com> writes:

> ... And all of this is done on the same VT. Presumably, it's
> VT7, accessible via either Ctrl-Alt-F7 or Alt-F7 (assuming
> default Linux and X keymaps.) The other VTs may be at
> Ctrl-Alt-F1 through Ctrl-Alt-F6, and my guess is that they're
> completely unused.

I work exclusively in the Linux VTs and my setup is similar to
yours. First, in .zprofile, based on what tty it is, I launch a
bunch of applications.

In tty1, I have Emacs. Instead of Lynx, I use Emacs-w3m (an Emacs
interface to the pager w3m, which was a convenient pick for the
developers, as w3m already could parse HTML) - I think it is more
convenient to have the web browser within Emacs, so that I can
yank web material into mails, Usenet posts, etc., *and* because I
am very familiar with Elisp, I can use that to write for example
web-search shorthands (to be invoked from anywhere within Emacs,
just like any other M-x command).

In tty2, I run a tmux session for terminal/file system/batch work
- I need it in part to split the screen into two terminals, but
mostly as a workaround to one of the most annoying limitations to
the Linux VTs - once you leave one, and get back, you can't
scroll! This is remedied with the tmux scroll mode.

In tty3, I run Irssi, within tmux, this time because I sometimes
want to copy material (i.e., dump it to a file).

From tty4, I launch X.

Here are some *very* helpful shortcuts so I can toggle between the
VTs without having to reach for the distant F1 etc. keys - so that
my hands can remain in "typing position":

#### /etc/console-setup/remap.inc

## invoke with
## loadkeys /etc/console-setup/remap.inc > /dev/null
## in /etc/rc.local (at least in my Debian)

## "ctrll" makes it work even when capslocked
## get keycode with `showkey'
## on-the-fly update: `loadkeys -c -s <file>' (a useful alias)

## cycling tty's (and tty6 -> X <- tty1)
# J
alt keycode 36 = Decr_Console
ctrll alt keycode 36 = Decr_Console
# K
alt keycode 37 = Incr_Console
ctrll alt keycode 37 = Incr_Console

### tty -> tty
# M-u - Emacs
alt keycode 22 = Console_1
ctrll alt keycode 22 = Console_1
# M-i - tmux/shell
alt keycode 23 = Console_2
ctrll alt keycode 23 = Console_2
# M-o - Irssi
alt keycode 24 = Console_3
ctrll alt keycode 24 = Console_3

### tty -> X
# M-p - X
alt keycode 25 = Console_7
ctrll alt keycode 25 = Console_7
# ` (left of `1') - X
alt keycode 41 = Console_7
ctrll alt keycode 41 = Console_7

In X, which I only use for video, I always run a fullscreen,
tabbed urxvt in which I have setup the corresponding shortcuts, so
that I can return to the VTs in the same way as I navigate between
them.

Last, I wrote this about scrolling - and shortcuts - not reaching,
not using the mouse:

http://superuser.com/a/610507/106960

--
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573