[OF] First line not inndented after section in OpenOffice.org

[Matej Cepl]

Hi,

sorry for off-topic here, but I hope that I could fine support here for
improvement in computer typography. The case is OpenOffice.org and this
issue http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=66070
I tried to persuade them to add to the paragraph formatting switch "Don't
indent para. when first in text block" (basically the behavior of LaTeX and
article.cls without any other packages).

Can anybody support me with as authoritative as possible sources supporting
thesis that first line should not be indented in the paragraph after
section and list?

Thanks,

Matej

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[BZ]

Matej Cepl wrote in comp.text.tex:

> Can anybody support me with as authoritative as possible sources supporting
> thesis that first line should not be indented in the paragraph after
> section and list?

To quote Bringhurst in the Elements of Typographic Style: "The
function of a paragraph indent is to mark a pause, setting the
paragraph apart from what precedes it. If a paragraph is preceded by
a title or a subhead, the indent is superfluous and can therefore be
omitted".

--
BZ

[Olaf Conradi]

So what about the indent after an itemize list?

\begin{itemize}
\item one
\item two
\end{itemize}

Next paragraph starts here.

Should ``Next'' be indented? Doesn't the itemize already imply such a pause?
By default LaTeX does indent it (which can be suppressed), but still.

-Olaf

[Morten Høgholm]

On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 18:21:32 +0200, Olaf Conradi <ooh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> So what about the indent after an itemize list?
>
> \begin{itemize}
> \item one
> \item two
> \end{itemize}
>
> Next paragraph starts here.
>
> Should ``Next'' be indented? Doesn't the itemize already imply such a
> pause?
> By default LaTeX does indent it (which can be suppressed), but still.

Depends on how you perceive a paragraph. One definition is that you should
start a new paragraph every time you start on a new idea, so if the text
after the itemize concerns the list then maybe it should be in the same
paragraph.
--
Morten

[John Culleton]

Matej Cepl wrote:

> Hi,
>
> sorry for off-topic here, but I hope that I could fine support here for
> improvement in computer typography. The case is OpenOffice.org and this
> issue http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=66070
> I tried to persuade them to add to the paragraph formatting switch "Don't
> indent para. when first in text block" (basically the behavior of LaTeX
> and article.cls without any other packages).
>
> Can anybody support me with as authoritative as possible sources
> supporting thesis that first line should not be indented in the paragraph
> after section and list?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Matej
>

I can offer you a common sense answer. Indentation is a way of
letting the reader know that one paragraph has ended and another has
started. The first paragraph under a heading doesn't need that
signal.

If you skip significant space between paragraphs you don't need
to indent at all.

--
John Culleton
Able Indexers and Typesetters

[aktano]

> I can offer you a common sense answer. Indentation is a way of
> letting the reader know that one paragraph has ended and another has
> started. The first paragraph under a heading doesn't need that
> signal.
>
> If you skip significant space between paragraphs you don't need
> to indent at all.
>

hello, do you have any idea how to make sure i get something like

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb.
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb.

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

so in short how to make sure i dont get an indent when theres an empty
line??

thx in advance
W

[Robin Fairbairns]

"aktano" <wimde...@gmail.com> writes:
>> I can offer you a common sense answer. Indentation is a way of
>> letting the reader know that one paragraph has ended and another has
>> started. The first paragraph under a heading doesn't need that
>> signal.
>>
>> If you skip significant space between paragraphs you don't need
>> to indent at all.
>>
>
>hello, do you have any idea how to make sure i get something like
>
>bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
>bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
>bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb.
> bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

of course, on my screen, with a fixed-width font, that line juts out a
lot. bear in mind that ascii graphics don't work in a proportional font.

>bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
>bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
>bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb.
>
>bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
>bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
>bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
>
>so in short how to make sure i dont get an indent when theres an empty
>line??

there's no concept of "empty line" in tex: you're asking what to do
when something has put a vertical skip into your page.

the answer is, it depends what put the vertical space there in the
first place. if you put it there with a non-zero \parskip, use
\noindent (but better use the parskip package).

otherwise, just never leave empty lines in your input after things
that are naturally set apart from the rest of the paragraph. examples
are display maths and lists; so, for example

\begin{itemize}
\item foo
\end{itemize}

this text will be indented

but:

\[ e=mc^2 \]
this text will not be indented

i've probably forgotten something, but the general principle is likely
to be the same: just don't give tex a chance to think it's starting a
new paragraph if it isn't.
--
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge

[Ralf Stubner]

Olaf Conradi <ooh...@gmail.com> writes:

> So what about the indent after an itemize list?
>
> \begin{itemize}
> \item one
> \item two
> \end{itemize}
>
> Next paragraph starts here.
>
> Should ``Next'' be indented? Doesn't the itemize already imply such a pause?
> By default LaTeX does indent it (which can be suppressed), but still.

IMO it is correct to indent 'Next'. How would you tell the difference
from

\begin{itemize}
\item one
\item two
\end{itemize}

%
current paragraph continues here.

otherwise?

cheerio
ralf

[Peter Flynn]

[BTW the indented line in the example has 4 bs too many: maybe
don't use a proportional font when reading news.]

What you show above is two very different things, and you need to
identify them properly.

The first is a normal paragraph break in justified setting, so there
is no inter-paragraph gap and there *is* an indentation.

The second is some other kind of break or pause in the sense or
argument of your text which you don't identify, for which you want
a vertical space and no indentation. This is NOT a normal paragraph
break, so you should invent some suitable term for it and encode
it appropriately, eg

\newcommand{\sensebreak}{\par\bigskip\noindent\ignorespaces}

and then write your LaTeX like this:

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb.

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb.

\sensebreak
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

The first blank line will give you the normal para break. The second
line will break the para too, but the new command will then add the
extra space and inhibit the indentation.

///Peter

[aktano]

great, thx, it was something like that that i searched...

grtz,
W

[Matej Cepl]

Olaf Conradi wrote:
> So what about the indent after an itemize list?
>
> \begin{itemize}
> \item one
> \item two
> \end{itemize}
>
> Next paragraph starts here.
>
> Should ``Next'' be indented? Doesn't the itemize already imply such a
> pause? By default LaTeX does indent it (which can be suppressed), but
> still.

I don't understand -- this LaTeX document:

\documentclass{article}
\begin{document}
\begin{enumerate}
\item This is itemized list
\item Another item
\item And one more
\end{enumerate}
and this

this
\end{document}

has "and" not indented and "this" indented, and that's IMHO, how is it
supposed to be.

Matej

--
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http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej/blog/, Jabber: cep...@jabber.cz
23 Marion St. #3, (617) 876-1259, ICQ 132822213

I went to a Grateful Dead Concert and they played for SEVEN
hours. Great song.
-- Fred Reuss

[Olaf Conradi]

Ah, OK. For me the paragraph usually ends after a list. The difference
is needed indeed.

Cheers
Olaf