am not sure how much info he has on his website. (have browsed it over the years, it appears to me not many, but anyway.)
i'm hoping, perhaps someone, or perhaps his family, friends, would want to do this, of collecting all his writings in one place?
my guess is that Erik probably have merticulously saved all his postings himself. My guess is that he wouldn't mind to share them. At least, it shouldn't be a problem to republish all his public postings in one place.
i don't know who's Erik's legal benefactor that inherits all his belongs... don't know if this person knows about computing. If not, i could help out to kinda sort them or put them online, and am sure many Erik's friends would be willing to help on this.
Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote: > my guess is that Erik probably have merticulously saved all his > postings himself. My guess is that he wouldn't mind to share them. At > least, it shouldn't be a problem to republish all his public postings > in one place.
Google Groups has a record of his posts, how about this?
On Jul 9, 12:18 pm, Marek Kubica <ma...@xivilization.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 07:24:47 -0700 (PDT)
> Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote: > > my guess is that Erik probably have merticulously saved all his > > postings himself. My guess is that he wouldn't mind to share them. At > > least, it shouldn't be a problem to republish all his public postings > > in one place.
> Google Groups has a record of his posts, how about this?
google group search function is pretty broken since about this year or last year.
if you search Erik Naggum, or by 2 of his widely known email variations, or any parameter in google search, and save all result pages, i'd guess less than 50% of his posts turns up.
asides from missing posts or the problem of finding them, it is also inconvenient to use.
it'd be better if there's a website that collects all his writings. e.g. many socially important people has such website, e.g. people done that for Edsger Dijkstra, Bertrand Russell, Emily Dickinson... etc. Erik may not have such status, but still, am guessing many people in the lisp community would like to see his collected rants. I certainly would.
> am not sure how much info he has on his website. (have browsed it over > the years, it appears to me not many, but anyway.)
> i'm hoping, perhaps someone, or perhaps his family, friends, would > want to do this, of collecting all his writings in one place?
> my guess is that Erik probably have merticulously saved all his > postings himself. My guess is that he wouldn't mind to share them. At > least, it shouldn't be a problem to republish all his public postings > in one place.
> i don't know who's Erik's legal benefactor that inherits all his > belongs... don't know if this person knows about computing. If not, i > could help out to kinda sort them or put them online, and am sure many > Erik's friends would be willing to help on this.
On Jul 9, 12:18 pm, Marek Kubica <ma...@xivilization.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 07:24:47 -0700 (PDT)
> Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote: > > my guess is that Erik probably have merticulously saved all his > > postings himself. My guess is that he wouldn't mind to share them. At > > least, it shouldn't be a problem to republish all his public postings > > in one place.
> Google Groups has a record of his posts, how about this?
google group search function is pretty broken since about this year or last year.
if you search Erik Naggum, or by 2 of his widely known email variations, or any parameter in google search, and save all result pages, i'd guess less than 50% of his posts turns up.
asides from missing posts or the problem of finding them, it is also inconvenient to use.
it'd be better if there's a website that collects all his writings. e.g. many socially important people has such website, e.g. people done that for Edsger Dijkstra, Bertrand Russell, Emily Dickinson... etc. Erik may not have such status, but still, am guessing many people in the lisp community would like to see his collected rants. I certainly would.
> am not sure how much info he has on his website. (have browsed it over > the years, it appears to me not many, but anyway.)
> i'm hoping, perhaps someone, or perhaps his family, friends, would > want to do this, of collecting all his writings in one place?
> my guess is that Erik probably have merticulously saved all his > postings himself. My guess is that he wouldn't mind to share them. At > least, it shouldn't be a problem to republish all his public postings > in one place.
> i don't know who's Erik's legal benefactor that inherits all his > belongs... don't know if this person knows about computing. If not, i > could help out to kinda sort them or put them online, and am sure many > Erik's friends would be willing to help on this.
In article <9d1f537a-1cd9-4ec0-a8ef-4bad34244...@l35g2000pra.googlegroups.com>, Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 12:18 pm, Marek Kubica <ma...@xivilization.net> wrote: > > On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 07:24:47 -0700 (PDT)
> > Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > my guess is that Erik probably have merticulously saved all his > > > postings himself. My guess is that he wouldn't mind to share them. At > > > least, it shouldn't be a problem to republish all his public postings > > > in one place.
> > Google Groups has a record of his posts, how about this?
> google group search function is pretty broken since about this year or > last year.
In article <299ad9bb-7802-4cae-b300-045bdbc02...@y4g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 12:18 pm, Marek Kubica <ma...@xivilization.net> wrote: > > On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 07:24:47 -0700 (PDT)
> > Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > my guess is that Erik probably have merticulously saved all his > > > postings himself. My guess is that he wouldn't mind to share them. At > > > least, it shouldn't be a problem to republish all his public postings > > > in one place.
> > Google Groups has a record of his posts, how about this?
> google group search function is pretty broken since about this year or > last year.
Zach's site collects less than 100 of Erik's posts. They are less that 0.1% of Erik's public posts. Zach's collection is great for a glimps of some of Erik's better tech rants.
I'm hoping this thread gets passed around to those close to Erik.
For those of you who are really interested to see such comprehensive collection, perhaps it should be made known publically. Here, or on your blog etc.
Also, am pretty sure some old timer must have archived the entire comp.lang.lisp during the time he's reading. Perhaps such person would have a interest to make it public? With that, it's then very easy to filter and form a collection of all Erik's posts, at least for comp.lang.lisp. (if you know such person candidate, please let them know about this)
I dunno. It may be a matter of taste, but I'd rather see a collection of Lee's rants (translated into modern English, of course). He is more edgy. Nagum's rants were too long and unoriginal. Who's got time to read that? Also, it's better to create these rant collections, while someone is still alive, so they can make revisions and add comments. What do you think, Xa?
Btw, did RMS write anything on the occasion of Erik's death? I can't find it. I hear Emacs would be crap if it weren't for Erik patches.
fft1976 <fft1...@gmail.com> writes: > I hear Emacs would be crap if it weren't for Erik patches.
That's silly. Erik made very few actual changes to Emacs -- basically in the noise.
His most valuable contribution was probably complaining a lot.
I'm quite serious about that -- he did a lot of complaining about Emacs over the years, and while a lot of his complaints were stupid (and at worst, stupid, racist, and downright conspiracy-freakish), his pushing for things like making the multi-byte encoding of buffers relatively opaque was a good thing, and helped make Emacs better.
-Miles
-- Neighbor, n. One whom we are commanded to love as ourselves, and who does all he knows how to make us disobedient.
On Jul 17, 2:23 am, Miles Bader <mi...@gnu.org> wrote:
> fft1976 <fft1...@gmail.com> writes: > > I hear Emacs would be crap if it weren't for Erik patches.
> That's silly. Erik made very few actual changes to Emacs -- basically > in the noise.
> His most valuable contribution was probably complaining a lot.
> I'm quite serious about that -- he did a lot of complaining about Emacs > over the years, and while a lot of his complaints were stupid (and at > worst, stupid, racist, and downright conspiracy-freakish), his
I didn't realize that about him. Got a link with that?
Isn't it anti-racist to want support for non-ASCII characters?
fft1976 <fft1...@gmail.com> writes: > On Jul 17, 2:23 am, Miles Bader <mi...@gnu.org> wrote: >> fft1976 <fft1...@gmail.com> writes: >> > I hear Emacs would be crap if it weren't for Erik patches.
>> That's silly. Erik made very few actual changes to Emacs -- basically >> in the noise.
>> His most valuable contribution was probably complaining a lot.
>> I'm quite serious about that -- he did a lot of complaining about Emacs >> over the years, and while a lot of his complaints were stupid (and at >> worst, stupid, racist, and downright conspiracy-freakish), his
> I didn't realize that about him. Got a link with that?
> Isn't it anti-racist to want support for non-ASCII characters?
Norwegians are a diacritic race (to use your terminology). So it was merely selfish.
> fft1976 <fft1...@gmail.com> writes: > > On Jul 17, 2:23 am, Miles Bader <mi...@gnu.org> wrote: > >> fft1976 <fft1...@gmail.com> writes: > >> > I hear Emacs would be crap if it weren't for Erik patches.
> >> That's silly. Erik made very few actual changes to Emacs -- basically > >> in the noise.
> >> His most valuable contribution was probably complaining a lot.
> >> I'm quite serious about that -- he did a lot of complaining about Emacs > >> over the years, and while a lot of his complaints were stupid (and at > >> worst, stupid, racist, and downright conspiracy-freakish), his
> > I didn't realize that about him. Got a link with that?
> > Isn't it anti-racist to want support for non-ASCII characters?
> Norwegians are a diacritic race (to use your terminology). So it was > merely selfish.
In article <429214f6-1898-4a41-ad07-c3b649d36...@x5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm thinking that there should be a archive of all Erik's writings, at > least all his newsgroup writings.
I have obtained a copy of the entire Google comp.lang.lisp corpus as of about a week ago. It's big, a 200MB gzip that expands to nearly 700MB. I can make this available for the community, but I don't want to wear out my welcome at my ISP. If anyone has a server with a fat pipe that they are willing to donate to the cause, or know how to set up a torrent, please contact me by email. (I have comp.lang.scheme as well if anyone is interested.)
I've done some preliminary analysis of the data. It's a little tricky because it's hard to separate out original text from quotes, but here are the numbers I've come up with so far: Erik wrote 5144 articles comprising a little over 1.3 million words, including about 15,000 unique words, not including hapax-legomena (of which there are about another 15,000, but a lot of those look like code snippets). To put these numbers in perspective, the King James Bible is only 789,634 words, about 12,000 distinct words including about 4,000 hapax legomana [1].
Ron Garret wrote: > In article > <429214f6-1898-4a41-ad07-c3b649d36...@x5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm thinking that there should be a archive of all Erik's writings, at >> least all his newsgroup writings.
> I have obtained a copy of the entire Google comp.lang.lisp corpus as of > about a week ago. It's big, a 200MB gzip that expands to nearly 700MB. > I can make this available for the community, but I don't want to wear > out my welcome at my ISP. If anyone has a server with a fat pipe that > they are willing to donate to the cause, or know how to set up a > torrent, please contact me by email. (I have comp.lang.scheme as well > if anyone is interested.)
> I've done some preliminary analysis of the data. It's a little tricky > because it's hard to separate out original text from quotes, but here > are the numbers I've come up with so far: Erik wrote 5144 articles > comprising a little over 1.3 million words, including about 15,000 > unique words, not including hapax-legomena (of which there are about > another 15,000, but a lot of those look like code snippets). To put > these numbers in perspective, the King James Bible is only 789,634 > words, about 12,000 distinct words including about 4,000 hapax legomana
Great statistics. They tell us a lot about you, a posthumous confirmation of everything Erik said: you have not seen the enemy, but they is you.
The man is gone and you are still trying to salvage your self-worth in terms of denigrating him. Usually in flame wars recommendations to seek help are tired cliches -- how do we then make that recommendation in earnest?
If it helps, all we see is your self-loathing. Move on, dude. Let it go.
In article <rNOSPAMon-F7E803.17045024072...@news.albasani.net>, Ron Garret <rNOSPA...@flownet.com> wrote:
> In article > <429214f6-1898-4a41-ad07-c3b649d36...@x5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm thinking that there should be a archive of all Erik's writings, at > > least all his newsgroup writings.
> I have obtained a copy of the entire Google comp.lang.lisp corpus as of > about a week ago. It's big, a 200MB gzip that expands to nearly 700MB. > I can make this available for the community, but I don't want to wear > out my welcome at my ISP. If anyone has a server with a fat pipe that > they are willing to donate to the cause, or know how to set up a > torrent, please contact me by email. (I have comp.lang.scheme as well > if anyone is interested.)
Eli Barzilay has generously agreed to host the files. Here are the links:
> > The man is gone and you are still trying to salvage your self-worth in > > terms of denigrating him.
> What especially did offend you? I can't find anything "denigrating" in > the article. Please be more specific when blaming someone, so that we do > not need to guess what you mean.
You see, Erik wrote an insane amount of material on Usenet (mostly flames and meta-flames), but he left very little verifiable code behind.
Apparently, his biggest contributions were to Emacs, but even those were "in the noise" (quoting Miles).
If he had spent as much effort improving things (like Rick did with Clojure, for example) as he did ranting and flaming... Well, we'll never know if Erik was any good at actual coding, so maybe nothing would be different.
> > > The man is gone and you are still trying to salvage your self-worth in > > > terms of denigrating him.
> > What especially did offend you? I can't find anything "denigrating" in > > the article. Please be more specific when blaming someone, so that we do > > not need to guess what you mean.
> You see, Erik wrote an insane amount of material on Usenet (mostly > flames and meta-flames), but he left very little verifiable code > behind.
> Apparently, his biggest contributions were to Emacs, but even those > were "in the noise" (quoting Miles).
> If he had spent as much effort improving things (like Rick did with > Clojure, for example) as he did ranting and flaming... Well, we'll > never know if Erik was any good at actual coding, so maybe nothing > would be different.
What I'm trying to say is that pointing out how much Erik wrote (twice the size of the bible) is a sore spot to some.
> In article <rNOSPAMon-F7E803.17045024072...@news.albasani.net>, > Ron Garret <rNOSPA...@flownet.com> wrote:
> > In article > > <429214f6-1898-4a41-ad07-c3b649d36...@x5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > > Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I'm thinking that there should be a archive of all Erik's writings, at > > > least all his newsgroup writings.
> > I have obtained a copy of the entire Google comp.lang.lisp corpus as of > > about a week ago. It's big, a 200MB gzip that expands to nearly 700MB. > > I can make this available for the community, but I don't want to wear > > out my welcome at my ISP. If anyone has a server with a fat pipe that > > they are willing to donate to the cause, or know how to set up a > > torrent, please contact me by email. (I have comp.lang.scheme as well > > if anyone is interested.)
> Eli Barzilay has generously agreed to host the files. Here are the > links:
Someone asked me privately if I have any plans to provide updates to these archives. The answer is no. The process of getting these was quite time consuming, and I have other fish to fry. If there is a desire to keep these archives up to date someone else is going to have to pick up the baton.
> > > > The man is gone and you are still trying to salvage your self-worth in > > > > terms of denigrating him.
> > > What especially did offend you? I can't find anything "denigrating" in > > > the article. Please be more specific when blaming someone, so that we do > > > not need to guess what you mean.
> > You see, Erik wrote an insane amount of material on Usenet (mostly > > flames and meta-flames), but he left very little verifiable code > > behind.
> > Apparently, his biggest contributions were to Emacs, but even those > > were "in the noise" (quoting Miles).
> > If he had spent as much effort improving things (like Rick did with > > Clojure, for example) as he did ranting and flaming... Well, we'll > > never know if Erik was any good at actual coding, so maybe nothing > > would be different.
> What I'm trying to say is that pointing out how much Erik wrote (twice > the size of the bible) is a sore spot to some.
That Erik wrote as much as he did is simply a fact. If you find facts troublesome, I suggest you engage in some of the introspection that Erik often urged people to undertake.
FWIW, several people have been even more prolific than Erik, at least in terms of article count:
sqlite> select count(*) from comp_lang_lisp where author like '%Naggum%'; 5144
sqlite> select count(*) from comp_lang_lisp where author like '%Pitman%'; 5470
But the all time winner by a wide margin is... (drumroll, maestro, if you please...):
sqlite> select count(*) from comp_lang_lisp where author like '%Tilton%'; 8333
Yessirree, it's Kenny "don't bother me with facts" Tilton! No wonder he has a bee in his bonnet about this.
(For the record, my own total is 3320. I'm a dilettante next to Kenny.)
> > > > > The man is gone and you are still trying to salvage your self-worth in > > > > > terms of denigrating him.
> > > > What especially did offend you? I can't find anything "denigrating" in > > > > the article. Please be more specific when blaming someone, so that we do > > > > not need to guess what you mean.
> > > You see, Erik wrote an insane amount of material on Usenet (mostly > > > flames and meta-flames), but he left very little verifiable code > > > behind.
> > > Apparently, his biggest contributions were to Emacs, but even those > > > were "in the noise" (quoting Miles).
> > > If he had spent as much effort improving things (like Rick did with > > > Clojure, for example) as he did ranting and flaming... Well, we'll > > > never know if Erik was any good at actual coding, so maybe nothing > > > would be different.
> > What I'm trying to say is that pointing out how much Erik wrote (twice > > the size of the bible) is a sore spot to some.
> That Erik wrote as much as he did is simply a fact. If you find facts > troublesome, I suggest you engage in some of the introspection that Erik > often urged people to undertake.
I'm just explaining Kenny's reaction to Christoph.
> FWIW, several people have been even more prolific than Erik, at least in > terms of article count:
> sqlite> select count(*) from comp_lang_lisp where author like '%Naggum%'; > 5144
> sqlite> select count(*) from comp_lang_lisp where author like '%Pitman%'; > 5470
> But the all time winner by a wide margin is... (drumroll, maestro, if > you please...):
> sqlite> select count(*) from comp_lang_lisp where author like '%Tilton%'; > 8333
> Yessirree, it's Kenny "don't bother me with facts" Tilton! No wonder he > has a bee in his bonnet about this.
> (For the record, my own total is 3320. I'm a dilettante next to Kenny.)
> rg
I read your essay, by the way. I find it strange that you say that CLL was such an oasis of brotherly love in the 90s, and yet you waited 5 years to acknowledge Erik's presence. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that one thing does not agree with the other.
Btw, "Kenny refused to speak to me at the conference" LOL WUT? You guys are cracking me up. Kenny has this jolly troll persona, but it seems that he's taking it all very personally.
I wonder who eventually convinced Erik to start capitalizing his sentences?
Ron Garret <rNOSPA...@flownet.com> writes: > In article > <429214f6-1898-4a41-ad07-c3b649d36...@x5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm thinking that there should be a archive of all Erik's writings, at >> least all his newsgroup writings.
> I have obtained a copy of the entire Google comp.lang.lisp corpus as of > about a week ago. It's big, a 200MB gzip that expands to nearly 700MB. > I can make this available for the community, but I don't want to wear > out my welcome at my ISP. If anyone has a server with a fat pipe that > they are willing to donate to the cause, or know how to set up a > torrent, please contact me by email. (I have comp.lang.scheme as well > if anyone is interested.)
That's great! Thank you very much, Ron! And thanks also to Google. (Did you simply ask them for the archive?)
fft1976 wrote: > On Jul 24, 11:41 pm, Ron Garret <rNOSPA...@flownet.com> wrote: > Btw, "Kenny refused to speak to me at the conference" LOL WUT?
Ron misremembers and a quick check of the cll archives in the week or two after that conference will refresh his memory because I did explain here our brief interaction: I complimented Erann (in my recounting of the encounter on cll) for his consistency in being the same ridiculous asshole in person as he is on Usenet.
If the encounter was brief, it was only because I was consistent in having as little interest in him in person as I do on line.
This can easily be misremembered as refusing to talk, but it was more refusing to talk further after Erann/Ron proved so disappointing. One always comes away from these conferences wishing one had more time to speak to more people so triage is required and one outburst of flamage from Erann was enough for me to identify a lost cause.
> > In article > > <429214f6-1898-4a41-ad07-c3b649d36...@x5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > > Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I'm thinking that there should be a archive of all Erik's writings, at > >> least all his newsgroup writings.
> > I have obtained a copy of the entire Google comp.lang.lisp corpus as of > > about a week ago. It's big, a 200MB gzip that expands to nearly 700MB. > > I can make this available for the community, but I don't want to wear > > out my welcome at my ISP. If anyone has a server with a fat pipe that > > they are willing to donate to the cause, or know how to set up a > > torrent, please contact me by email. (I have comp.lang.scheme as well > > if anyone is interested.)
> That's great! Thank you very much, Ron!
My pleasure.
> And thanks also to Google. (Did you simply ask them for the archive?)
It wasn't so "simple" -- it took several weeks. Just finding out who would be the right person to ask was not easy. But yes, that's how I got it.
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