ZX Spectrum vs Commodore 64

Chris Young

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Apr 22, 2012, 12:08:55 PM4/22/12

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http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a377768/zx-spectrum-vs-commodore-64-gamings-greatest-rivalry.html

Discuss.

Chris

--
+-------------------------------------------+
| Unsatisfactory Software - "because it is" |
| http://www.unsatisfactorysoftware.co.uk |
| Your Sinclair: A Celebration |
+- http://www.yoursinclair.co.uk -----------+

DISCLAIMER: I may be making all this stuff up again.

Dombo

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Apr 22, 2012, 2:49:09 PM4/22/12

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Op 22-Apr-12 18:08, Chris Young schreef:
> http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a377768/zx-spectrum-vs-commodore-64-gamings-greatest-rivalry.html
>
> Discuss.

It has been discussed a gazillion times.

andy rea

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Apr 22, 2012, 4:43:01 PM4/22/12

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aye discussed.... But.... was there ever a difinative outcome that both
sides would agree upon.....Therefor the discussion must continue....

lizardb0y

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Apr 22, 2012, 6:08:23 PM4/22/12

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On Monday, 23 April 2012 04:08:55 UTC+12, Chris Young wrote:
> http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a377768/zx-spectrum-vs-commodore-64-gamings-greatest-rivalry.html
>
> Discuss.

Obviously the best computer was the one you could afford - and we could afford a second hand Speccy, so that settles it.

-- lizardb0y
Madman and Itinerant Bus Stop.
http://www.vintage8bit.com/

Wasted

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Apr 22, 2012, 6:12:44 PM4/22/12

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"andy rea" <ask...@ask.me> wrote in message
news:p3_kr.236988$sE1....@fx22.am4...

Its like comparing apples and pears, some people like apples, some like
pears, they are not the same. But we must agree that the amstrad CPC464 was
like a rotten peach, it should have been good but stank and looked like
something we did not want. I'm a speccy fanboy but enjoyed my vic20 but cant
beat the spec for fun :)

dott.Piergiorgio

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Apr 22, 2012, 6:37:01 PM4/22/12

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Il 23/04/2012 00:12, Wasted ha scritto:

>>>> http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a377768/zx-spectrum-vs-commodore-64-gamings-greatest-rivalry.html

>>>> Discuss.
>>>
>>> It has been discussed a gazillion times.
>>
>> aye discussed.... But.... was there ever a difinative outcome that
>> both sides would agree upon.....Therefor the discussion must continue....

> Its like comparing apples and pears, some people like apples, some like
> pears, they are not the same. But we must agree that the amstrad CPC464 was
> like a rotten peach, it should have been good but stank and looked like
> something we did not want. I'm a speccy fanboy but enjoyed my vic20 but
> cant
> beat the spec for fun :)

OK everyone has ready their soda, popcorn and flamethrower ? :D

seriously, it's the usual attempt to ignite the perpetual flamewar....

Best reards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.

Clocky

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Apr 23, 2012, 5:07:26 AM4/23/12

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Chris Young wrote:
> http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a377768/zx-spectrum-vs-commodore-64-gamings-greatest-rivalry.html
>
> Discuss.
>

There is nothing to compare. The Spectrum was cheaper, but it wasn't a
proper computer so it's not even comparable on that point to the vastly
superior in every aspect C64.

spi...@freenet.co.uk

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Apr 23, 2012, 6:27:21 AM4/23/12

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And verily, didst dott.Piergiorgio <chied...@ask.me> hastily babble thusly:

spi...@freenet.co.uk

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Apr 23, 2012, 6:28:40 AM4/23/12

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And verily, didst Clocky <not...@happen.com> hastily babble thusly:

Clocky

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Apr 23, 2012, 7:16:14 AM4/23/12

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spi...@freenet.co.uk wrote:
> And verily, didst Clocky <not...@happen.com> hastily babble thusly:
>> Chris Young wrote:
>>> http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a377768/zx-spectrum-vs-commodore-64-gamings-greatest-rivalry.html
>>>
>>> Discuss.
>>>
>> There is nothing to compare. The Spectrum was cheaper, but it wasn't
>> a proper computer so it's not even comparable on that point to the
>> vastly superior in every aspect C64.
>
> Even the ZX80 was a PROPER computer, silly.

Cheap shoddy rubbish is all it was.

Clocky

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Apr 23, 2012, 7:17:56 AM4/23/12

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spi...@freenet.co.uk wrote:
> And verily, didst dott.Piergiorgio <chied...@ask.me> hastily babble
> thusly:
>> Il 23/04/2012 00:12, Wasted ha scritto:
>>
>>>>>> http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a377768/zx-spectrum-vs-commodore-64-gamings-greatest-rivalry.html
>>
>>>>>> Discuss.
>>>>>
>>>>> It has been discussed a gazillion times.
>>>>
>>>> aye discussed.... But.... was there ever a difinative outcome that
>>>> both sides would agree upon.....Therefor the discussion must
>>>> continue....
>>
>>> Its like comparing apples and pears, some people like apples, some
>>> like pears, they are not the same. But we must agree that the
>>> amstrad CPC464 was like a rotten peach, it should have been good
>>> but stank and looked like something we did not want. I'm a speccy
>>> fanboy but enjoyed my vic20 but cant
>>> beat the spec for fun :)
>>
>> OK everyone has ready their soda, popcorn and flamethrower ? :D
>>
>> seriously, it's the usual attempt to ignite the perpetual
>> flamewar....
>
> Special occasion today though innit?
> The spectrum's hit the big 3 0.

Nobody at the party?

Calum

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Apr 23, 2012, 7:50:55 AM4/23/12

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0/10

--
Xbox: GallusNumpty Steam: scottishwildcat

Groepaz

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Apr 23, 2012, 8:27:56 AM4/23/12

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Chris Young wrote:

> http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a377768/zx-spectrum-vs-
commodore-64-gamings-greatest-rivalry.html

even spectrum was more fun in 1985

--

http://www.hitmen-console.org http://magicdisk.untergrund.net
http://www.pokefinder.org http://ftp.pokefinder.org

A critic is a man who knows the way but can't drive the car.
<Kenneth Tynan>

Dombo

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Apr 23, 2012, 3:08:37 PM4/23/12

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Op 23-Apr-12 12:28, spi...@freenet.co.uk schreef:

> And verily, didst Clocky<not...@happen.com> hastily babble thusly:
>> Chris Young wrote:
>>> http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a377768/zx-spectrum-vs-commodore-64-gamings-greatest-rivalry.html
>>>
>>> Discuss.
>>>
>> There is nothing to compare. The Spectrum was cheaper, but it wasn't a
>> proper computer so it's not even comparable on that point to the vastly
>> superior in every aspect C64.
>
> Even the ZX80 was a PROPER computer, silly.
> Bet alan turing would've been drooling over even that if you showed it him.

So would he if you showed your butt-hole to him, your point being?

deKay

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Apr 23, 2012, 3:33:58 PM4/23/12

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Indeed. And the Spectrum was best every time.

deKay
--
Lofi Gaming - http://lofi-gaming.org.uk
Gaming Diary - http://lofi-gaming.org.uk/diary
Blog - http://lofi-gaming.org.uk/blog
My computer runs at 3.5MHz and I'm proud of that

dott.Piergiorgio

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Apr 23, 2012, 3:39:31 PM4/23/12

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Il 23/04/2012 12:28, spi...@freenet.co.uk ha scritto:

>> There is nothing to compare. The Spectrum was cheaper, but it wasn't a
>> proper computer so it's not even comparable on that point to the vastly
>> superior in every aspect C64.
>
> Even the ZX80 was a PROPER computer, silly.
> Bet alan turing would've been drooling over even that if you showed it him.

yea... and I'm waiting for a reply if someone known the use of a ZX80/81
as quick'n dirty embedded controller or prototyping system...

I known at least an usage of the Speccy as field tool in hobbyist
astronomy, thanks to the tiny size & space (when going out with
well-packaged delicate scopes, there's not much space remaining in cars,
and putting a Speccy in a case or box together a tape recorder, a 5"
portable TV and the needed cables is rather compact...)

Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.

dott.Piergiorgio

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Apr 23, 2012, 3:44:13 PM4/23/12

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try to cram a 64 +1541+ a 7"-8" portable TV screen in a trunk full of
carefully packaged telescopes then set up and run this in the backseat
of a car in the middle of nowhere having to use only a car battery as
power source....

andy rea

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Apr 23, 2012, 3:45:41 PM4/23/12

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i used a ZX81 to develope the code for a Z80 based Hdd-POV-clock,
however i never got round to building the real thing... but still have
the code should i wish to pursue it...

Having said that, i did build a fully functional Eprom programmer for
the commodore PET many moons ago, on an 8K machine ! you had to program
larger devices in smaller chunks !

dott.Piergiorgio

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Apr 23, 2012, 3:54:30 PM4/23/12

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Il 23/04/2012 21:45, andy rea ha scritto:

>> yea... and I'm waiting for a reply if someone known the use of a ZX80/81
>> as quick'n dirty embedded controller or prototyping system...
>>
>> I known at least an usage of the Speccy as field tool in hobbyist
>> astronomy, thanks to the tiny size & space (when going out with
>> well-packaged delicate scopes, there's not much space remaining in cars,
>> and putting a Speccy in a case or box together a tape recorder, a 5"
>> portable TV and the needed cables is rather compact...)

> i used a ZX81 to develope the code for a Z80 based Hdd-POV-clock,
> however i never got round to building the real thing... but still have
> the code should i wish to pursue it...
>
> Having said that, i did build a fully functional Eprom programmer for
> the commodore PET many moons ago, on an 8K machine ! you had to program
> larger devices in smaller chunks !

indeed the #1 issue of ZX80/81 as eng proto tool/firmware development is
the lack of a debug monitor ROM hence my question on replacement
EPROM/binary images of a month or so ago...

Jan van den Broek

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Apr 23, 2012, 6:03:37 AM4/23/12

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Sun, 22 Apr 2012 20:49:09 +0200
Dombo <do...@disposable.invalid> schrieb:

And it will be discussed a gazillion times again.
--
Jan van den Broek balg...@xs4all.nl

Entertaining Quakers since 2005

Clocky

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Apr 24, 2012, 7:54:07 AM4/24/12

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deKay wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Apr 2012, Dombo wrote:
>
>> Op 22-Apr-12 18:08, Chris Young schreef:
>>> http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a377768/zx-spectrum-vs-commodore-64-gamings-greatest-rivalry.html
>>>
>>> Discuss.
>>
>> It has been discussed a gazillion times.
>

> Indeed. And the C64 was best every time.
>

Typo corrected.

Clocky

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Apr 24, 2012, 7:55:45 AM4/24/12

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Just use an SX64 and an inverter.

Clocky

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Apr 24, 2012, 7:58:56 AM4/24/12

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Not as compact or as useful as an SX64 however.
Besides, apart from the physical size difference of the ZX, the rest would
be the same for both machines so hardly much of an advantage. You could even
put the C64 program on a cartridge so no tape recorder required either and
instant loading.

Clocky

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Apr 24, 2012, 8:00:16 AM4/24/12

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Calum wrote:
> On 23/04/2012 10:07, Clocky wrote:
>> Chris Young wrote:
>>> http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a377768/zx-spectrum-vs-commodore-64-gamings-greatest-rivalry.html
>>>
>>> Discuss.
>>>
>> There is nothing to compare. The Spectrum was cheaper, but it wasn't
>> a proper computer so it's not even comparable on that point to the
>> vastly superior in every aspect C64.
>
> 0/10

Bit harsh on the ZX, I would give it 2/10.

Martijn van Buul

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Apr 24, 2012, 8:07:25 AM4/24/12

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* dott.Piergiorgio:

> 'm waiting for a reply if someone known the use of a ZX80/81 as quick'n dirty
> embedded controller or prototyping system...

Of course. Didn't you know? The ZX80 ushered in a whole new generation of
doorstops ;)

--
Martijn van Buul - pi...@dohd.org

deKay

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Apr 24, 2012, 10:27:50 AM4/24/12

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On Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Clocky wrote:

>>> It has been discussed a gazillion times.
>>
>> Indeed. And the C64 was best every time.
>

> Typo incorrected.

dott.Piergiorgio

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Apr 24, 2012, 10:59:45 AM4/24/12

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Il 24/04/2012 14:07, Martijn van Buul ha scritto:
> * dott.Piergiorgio:
>> 'm waiting for a reply if someone known the use of a ZX80/81 as quick'n dirty
>> embedded controller or prototyping system...
>
> Of course. Didn't you know? The ZX80 ushered in a whole new generation of
> doorstops ;)

Lamer ! ;)

True Hackers use broken HDs as doorstop ! ;) :D

dott.Piergiorgio

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Apr 24, 2012, 11:21:12 AM4/24/12

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Il 24/04/2012 13:58, Clocky ha scritto:

>> yea... and I'm waiting for a reply if someone known the use of a
>> ZX80/81 as quick'n dirty embedded controller or prototyping system...
>>
>> I known at least an usage of the Speccy as field tool in hobbyist

>> astronomy, thanks to the tiny size& space (when going out with

>> well-packaged delicate scopes, there's not much space remaining in
>> cars, and putting a Speccy in a case or box together a tape recorder,
>> a 5" portable TV and the needed cables is rather compact...)
>>
>
> Not as compact or as useful as an SX64 however.
> Besides, apart from the physical size difference of the ZX, the rest would
> be the same for both machines so hardly much of an advantage. You could even
> put the C64 program on a cartridge so no tape recorder required either and
> instant loading.

This was indeed my *other* , hidden point: there's always more than one
solution to a practical problem...

Now, an hobbyst astronomical club *perhaps* has the budget for or
availability of a SX-64 but wasn't an option for the club I cited above
(for the record, sometime later they manage to get an used transportable
CP/M computer (I don't remember what was...) and the usage of the
Spectrum was an ingenious solution with what was around back then.

Computers are the most flexible tool ever in human hands, but their
flexibility requires ingenuity and creativity, at least IMVHO.

I always considered C64 and Spectrum on par and even complementary...
there was things I prefer to implement on the 64 and others on the Speccy.

This is *my* truth.

Clocky

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Apr 24, 2012, 6:41:29 PM4/24/12

to

As always, whatever works/worked for you. It's really all just in jest
anyway though back in the day some people took it a bit too seriously.

Not me, I had to suffer a CoCo II (fond memories but it wasn't on par with
either of them)... but I certainly preferred to go play on my friends C64
rather than another friends ZX. The whole ZX experience reeked of cheap and
compromise to fit within a pricetag but that is just my experience.

Clocky

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Apr 24, 2012, 6:46:04 PM4/24/12

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All that gear just so you could find the keyboard... wow.

hp

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Apr 24, 2012, 8:07:54 PM4/24/12

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On 4/23/2012 5:03 PM, Jan van den Broek wrote:
> Sun, 22 Apr 2012 20:49:09 +0200
> Dombo<do...@disposable.invalid> schrieb:
>> Op 22-Apr-12 18:08, Chris Young schreef:
>>> http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a377768/zx-spectrum-vs-commodore-64-gamings-greatest-rivalry.html
>>>
>>> Discuss.
>>
>> It has been discussed a gazillion times.
>
> And it will be discussed a gazillion times again.

would it even be interesting to get the 'flame war hopeful' to explain
the simple math error present in the C64 that was easily demonstrated?

dott.Piergiorgio

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Apr 25, 2012, 12:03:08 PM4/25/12

to

oh, dear, I have given you earlier the perfect setting for this....

As I pointed earlier, these historical flamewars are like comparing
apples with oranges, hence their longstandins

(side question, I'm wrong but there aren't historical flamewar "X vs.
Apple II" ?)

Pedro

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Apr 25, 2012, 7:03:08 PM4/25/12

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"Chris Young" wrote in message
news:4F943B27.MD-1.4...@unsatisfactorysoftware.co.uk...

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a377768/zx-spectrum-vs-commodore-64-gamings-greatest-rivalry.html

Discuss.

Chris

Choose a computer for its mind not its body!!
Then the discussion will turn to Z80 vs 6502 which has an obvious outcome.
This is my personal opinion and like many others.

regards,
Pedro

Daniel Mandic

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May 13, 2012, 11:39:48 AM5/13/12

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deKay wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Apr 2012, Dombo wrote:
>
> > Op 22-Apr-12 18:08, Chris Young schreef:
> > >
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a377768/zx-spectrum-vs-commodore-64-gamings-greatest-rivalry.html
> > >
> > > Discuss.
> >
> > It has been discussed a gazillion times.
>
> Indeed. And the Spectrum was best every time.
>
> deKay

if not even better....

--
Daniel Mandic

Daniel Mandic

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May 13, 2012, 11:59:09 AM5/13/12

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Clocky wrote:

> Chris Young wrote:
> >
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a377768/zx-spectrum-vs-commodore-64-gamings-greatest-rivalry.html
> >
> > Discuss.
> >

> There is nothing to compare. The Spectrum was cheaper, but it wasn't
> a proper computer so it's not even comparable on that point to the
> vastly superior in every aspect C64.

Apple II, Atari 400/800. By miles better in every aspect and lightyears
better in user-friendliness.

Speccy does have its own niche. It has one of the most widely used CPU
ever and it's an other concept...

--
Daniel Mandic

Clocky

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May 14, 2012, 6:12:20 PM5/14/12

to

Daniel Mandic wrote:
> Clocky wrote:
>
>> Chris Young wrote:
>>>
> http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a377768/zx-spectrum-vs-commodore-64-gamings-greatest-rivalry.html
>>>
>>> Discuss.
>>>
>> There is nothing to compare. The Spectrum was cheaper, but it wasn't
>> a proper computer so it's not even comparable on that point to the
>> vastly superior in every aspect C64.
>
> Apple II, Atari 400/800. By miles better in every aspect and
> lightyears better in user-friendliness.
>

Yes, those too were better than the Spectrum.

> Speccy does have its own niche. It has one of the most widely used CPU
> ever and it's an other concept...

Hoorah.

Daniel Mandic

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May 15, 2012, 4:44:53 AM5/15/12

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Clocky wrote:

> Daniel Mandic wrote:
> > Apple II, Atari 400/800. By miles better in every aspect and
> > lightyears better in user-friendliness.

> Yes, those too were better than the Spectrum.

No, other concept wherein commo has lacked. (e.g. C-1530 + C-1541 vs.
Atari 1010 + 1050 Floppydrive)

Speccy is having a pretty tape-interface and a wide variety of other
storage devices....
C-64 is a hack.

--
Daniel Mandic

Clocky

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May 17, 2012, 8:04:19 AM5/17/12

to

Only poor poverty stricken poms think that so they don't feel inadequate.

rogerjowett

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May 18, 2012, 8:21:36 AM5/18/12

to

On Apr 22, 5:08 pm, "Chris Young" <chris.use...@mail-filter.com>
wrote:
> http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a377768/zx-spectrum-vs-commod...
>
> Discuss.
>
> Chris
>
> --
> +-------------------------------------------+
> | Unsatisfactory Software - "because it is" |
> | http://www.unsatisfactorysoftware.co.uk |
> | Your Sinclair: A Celebration |
> +-http://www.yoursinclair.co.uk-----------+
>
> DISCLAIMER: I may be making all this stuff up again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc4Xoz75yHI

please help persuade lcd to add hmpr bit 5&6 support for mode 3
interlaced sam coupe animations

Clocky

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May 19, 2012, 8:18:01 PM5/19/12

to

Daniel Mandic wrote:
> Clocky wrote:
>
>> Daniel Mandic wrote:
>>> Apple II, Atari 400/800. By miles better in every aspect and
>>> lightyears better in user-friendliness.
>
>> Yes, those too were better than the Spectrum.
>
> No, other concept wherein commo has lacked. (e.g. C-1530 + C-1541 vs.
> Atari 1010 + 1050 Floppydrive)

Didn't hold any C= users back. I can't think of anyone I know that was a
disk user and didn't have a fastloader solution.

>
> Speccy is having a pretty tape-interface and a wide variety of other
> storage devices....

Only someone unfamiliar with the C= and it's many storage solutions could
say that. Tape was a throwback to the 70's, nothing pretty about it in the
80's and the Spectrum disk hardware solutions were a bodgey hack. You
couldn't even plug joysticks into the damn thing without a hack.

> C-64 is a hack.

C64 inspired a generation. The ZX was a cheap, shoddy and the computer of
choice if you had no money and you still wanted to pretend to be part of the
computer revolution.

The ZX had it's niches, but don't even pretend to think that it was in the
same league as the Atari and Commodore offerings of that era.

Guesser

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May 19, 2012, 8:44:53 PM5/19/12

to

On 20/05/2012 01:18, Clocky wrote:
> C64 inspired a generation. The ZX was a cheap, shoddy and the computer of
> choice if you had no money and you still wanted to pretend to be part of the
> computer revolution.

Didn't commodore have to stick capacitors on clock lines to make the
memory work because it was missing clock edges or something?

Expensive and shoddy in other words ;)

Andrew Owen

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May 20, 2012, 8:03:58 PM5/20/12

to

On 23/04/2012 10:07, Clocky wrote:
> Chris Young wrote:
>> http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a377768/zx-spectrum-vs-commodore-64-gamings-greatest-rivalry.html
>>
>> Discuss.
>>
> There is nothing to compare. The Spectrum was cheaper, but it wasn't a
> proper computer so it's not even comparable on that point to the vastly
> superior in every aspect C64.

They don't make flamewars like they used to do they.

Chris Young

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May 21, 2012, 1:13:57 PM5/21/12

to

On Mon, 21 May 2012 01:03:58 +0100 da kidz on comp.sys.sinclair were rappin'
to MC Andrew Owen:

I'm too polite to start one that doesn't sound like an exam question.

Daniel Mandic

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May 21, 2012, 2:44:44 PM5/21/12

to

Clocky wrote:

> Daniel Mandic wrote:

> > No, other concept wherein commo has lacked. (e.g. C-1530 + C-1541
> > vs. Atari 1010 + 1050 Floppydrive)
>
> Didn't hold any C= users back. I can't think of anyone I know that
> was a disk user and didn't have a fastloader solution.

load "-",8
run -

load "raid over moscow",8
error----

> Only someone unfamiliar with the C= and it's many storage solutions
> could say that. Tape was a throwback to the 70's, nothing pretty
> about it in the 80's

errm, but not going with a floppy drive, as C64 showed.

5 is left, 6 is down, 7 is up and 8 is right.....

> C64 inspired a generation. The ZX was a cheap, shoddy and the
> computer of choice if you had no money and you still wanted to
> pretend to be part of the computer revolution.

You have too much of that revolution and C64 in one sense...

> The ZX had it's niches, but don't even pretend to think that it was
> in the same league as the Atari and Commodore offerings of that era.

tsk

The commo got its successor in case of GfX with the Atari 400/800, and
in case of sound, with the mighty AMIGA Computer....

--
Daniel Mandic

Clocky

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May 22, 2012, 4:50:51 AM5/22/12

to

Guesser wrote:
> On 20/05/2012 01:18, Clocky wrote:
>> C64 inspired a generation. The ZX was a cheap, shoddy and the
>> computer of choice if you had no money and you still wanted to
>> pretend to be part of the computer revolution.
>
> Didn't commodore have to stick capacitors on clock lines to make the
> memory work because it was missing clock edges or something?
>

No.

Clocky

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May 22, 2012, 4:54:27 AM5/22/12

to

If you're going to pick a fight, come prepared with a worthy competitor.

The C64 outclasses the ZX in every way, so no contest there. Next...

Guesser

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May 22, 2012, 6:12:03 AM5/22/12

to

On 22/05/2012 09:50, Clocky wrote:

> Guesser wrote:
>> Didn't commodore have to stick capacitors on clock lines to make the
>> memory work because it was missing clock edges or something?
>
> No.
>

That's not the way Bil Herd tells it... Maybe I misunderstood his
reminiscences about battling with the production engineers messing with
the design slapping caps across RAS/CAS etc to get dram timings working.

Clocky

unread,

May 22, 2012, 6:48:05 AM5/22/12

to

Whatever, it's not like the attribute clash fault and using faulty 64k chips
in the ZX were such elegant production solutions either.

Not having a joystick port is unforgiveable.

Andrew Owen

unread,

May 22, 2012, 7:47:47 AM5/22/12

to

On 22/05/2012 11:48, Clocky wrote:
> Whatever, it's not like the attribute clash fault and using faulty 64k chips
> in the ZX were such elegant production solutions either.

The C64 also has a cell attribute mode, so if you're calling that a
fault, it's one shared by the C64. Using the working part of faulty
chips is still a common solution to avoid waste and reduce cost today
(many dual-core chips are actually faulty quad-core chips).

> Not having a joystick port is unforgiveable.

Is the C64 a 'proper computer' or a games machine? You can't have it
both ways.

The C64 was the cheap option in the US (where the Apple II was the
'proper computer') and the Spectrum was the cheap option in the UK
(which unlike the US was still in recession).

Both machines had their technical merits, but both are 30 years old, and
arguing over which was better, like arguing over whether Budweiser or
Miller is the best beer, is a futile and pointless excercise. There have
been better computers, and beers, around for a long time.

Andrew Owen

unread,

May 22, 2012, 7:48:43 AM5/22/12

to

On 22/05/2012 09:54, Clocky wrote:
> If you're going to pick a fight, come prepared with a worthy competitor.
>
> The C64 outclasses the ZX in every way, so no contest there. Next...

My MacBook Air outclasses the C64 in every way, so no contest there.
Next ...

deKay

unread,

May 22, 2012, 8:24:16 AM5/22/12

to

On Tue, 22 May 2012, Andrew Owen wrote:

> Both machines had their technical merits, but both are 30 years old, and
> arguing over which was better, like arguing over whether Budweiser or Miller
> is the best beer,

Well that one is easy - neither.

I'd struggle to even class either *as* beer.

Chris Young

unread,

May 22, 2012, 1:19:06 PM5/22/12

to

On Tue, 22 May 2012 12:47:47 +0100 the suspected witch Andrew Owen
chanted this heresy:

> Both machines had their technical merits, but both are 30 years old, and

> arguing over which was better, [...], is a futile and pointless
> exercise. There have been better computers, [...], around for a long
> time.

Burn the heretic!

Clocky

unread,

May 23, 2012, 6:29:06 PM5/23/12

to

deKay wrote:
> On Tue, 22 May 2012, Andrew Owen wrote:
>
>> Both machines had their technical merits, but both are 30 years old,
>> and arguing over which was better, like arguing over whether
>> Budweiser or Miller is the best beer,
>
> Well that one is easy - neither.
>
> I'd struggle to even class either *as* beer.
>

If you are talking about the American crap called Budweiser then I agree
wholeheartedly... but the real Czech Budweiser (Budvar) tasted bloody good
when I was in Prague :-)

Clocky

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May 23, 2012, 6:32:23 PM5/23/12

to

You're right, so lets do a fair comparison and compare the ZX to a VIC-20...

Duncan Snowden

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May 23, 2012, 6:35:09 PM5/23/12

to

On 22 May 2012 18:19:06 +0100

"Chris Young" <chris....@mail-filter.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 22 May 2012 12:47:47 +0100 the suspected witch Andrew Owen
> chanted this heresy:
>
> > Both machines had their technical merits, but both are 30 years
> > old, and arguing over which was better, [...], is a futile and
> > pointless exercise. There have been better computers, [...], around
> > for a long time.
>
> Burn the heretic!

Aye, burn him! We'll have none of his heathen "reason" here! Followers
of the false God "common sense" are an abomination! For verily doth the
Good Book not say, in Appendix B, "The argument for a function is no
good for some reason"? The *argument* is no good for some *reason*,
bretheren! Aye, reason! Our Lord Clive has no patience for such ungodly
things and punishes its practitioners with Error A. Think on that, my
friends!

Take sides and follow them blindly or be damned for eternity! DAMNED, I
say!

(What? Why are you all looking at me like that?)

--
Duncan Snowden.

Andrew Owen

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May 24, 2012, 2:01:22 AM5/24/12

to

There's a VIC-20 emulator available for the Spectrum.

Chris Young

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May 24, 2012, 1:15:51 PM5/24/12

to

On Thu, 24 May 2012 07:01:22 +0100 da kidz on comp.sys.sinclair were rappin'
to MC Andrew Owen:

But no Spectrum emulator available for the VIC-20. By default, the
Spectrum wins this round. NEXT!

Daniel Mandic

unread,

May 25, 2012, 5:15:44 PM5/25/12

to

Clocky wrote:

> Whatever, it's not like the attribute clash fault and using faulty
> 64k chips in the ZX were such elegant production solutions either.

Paying several hundreds bucks more for a genius GfX-Chip was an other
side, not having hi-res with colors, too.

What 64k chips? The mighty AMIGA had 32k RAM-chips AFAIK.

> Not having a joystick port is unforgiveable.

Indeed, the ATARI Joystick-Port should remain where it has arose :-)

Only the AMIGA-Mouse can deliver the ATARI Joystick Port to its highest
level ;-). And it has...

C-64 is a hack. Nice GfX Hardware (ANTIC is better) and very 'nice'
soundchip (PAULA is better), but....

--
Daniel Mandic

Daniel Mandic

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May 25, 2012, 5:29:04 PM5/25/12

to

Andrew Owen wrote:

> Is the C64 a 'proper computer' or a games machine? You can't have it
> both ways.

It lacks the hi-res modes..........
Otherwise it is exceptional, beside the slow cpu. And I heard about the
amazing capabilities of the VIC GfX Controller at that times. (smooth
PAL/NTSC animations.... what else? as some other.... e.g. AMIGA)

Envelope generator and analogue filtering guaranteed the way to one of
the best HC.

> The C64 was the cheap option in the US (where the Apple II was the
> 'proper computer') and the Spectrum was the cheap option in the UK
> (which unlike the US was still in recession).
>
> Both machines had their technical merits, but both are 30 years old,
> and arguing over which was better, like arguing over whether
> Budweiser or Miller is the best beer, is a futile and pointless
> excercise. There have been better computers, and beers, around for a
> long time.

Speccy and commo were one of the best.

--
Daniel Mandic

Daniel Mandic

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May 25, 2012, 5:48:02 PM5/25/12

to

Clocky wrote:

> If you are talking about the American crap called Budweiser then I
> agree wholeheartedly... but the real Czech Budweiser (Budvar) tasted
> bloody good when I was in Prague :-)

so it is ;-)

Try 'Staro Brno' ('Old Brno'; 'Brno' is a town...) next time, my
favourite beside Budweisser.
Darker, less carbon dioxide, deeper taste.... (spicy, similar to
budweisser)

--
Daniel Mandic

Daniel Mandic

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May 25, 2012, 5:57:50 PM5/25/12

to

Duncan Snowden wrote:

> On 22 May 2012 18:19:06 +0100
> "Chris Young" <chris....@mail-filter.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 22 May 2012 12:47:47 +0100 the suspected witch Andrew Owen
> > chanted this heresy:
> >
> > > Both machines had their technical merits, but both are 30 years
> > > old, and arguing over which was better, [...], is a futile and
> > > pointless exercise. There have been better computers, [...],
> > > around for a long time.
> >
> > Burn the heretic!
>
> Aye, burn him! We'll have none of his heathen "reason" here! Followers
> of the false God "common sense" are an abomination! For verily doth
> the Good Book not say, in Appendix B, "The argument for a function is

> no good for some reason"? The argument is no good for some reason,

> bretheren! Aye, reason! Our Lord Clive has no patience for such
> ungodly things and punishes its practitioners with Error A. Think on
> that, my friends!
>
> Take sides and follow them blindly or be damned for eternity! DAMNED,
> I say!
>
> (What? Why are you all looking at me like that?)

Indeed, that machines had their chance on smooth running tv-sets
(monitors).

Not that I have wanted to have "digital" FreeTV, but I haven't had so
much troubles to get my TV-time, as I have had met that with TV (normal
TELEVISION). yet.

Even HD, I saw some days ago, is the same dazzling sh.. as DVB-S is.

--
Daniel Mandic

Clocky

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May 26, 2012, 6:17:28 AM5/26/12

to

Will try if I see it. And I know of Brno, I passed through there and my
rifle was made there too ;-)

Clocky

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May 26, 2012, 6:21:48 AM5/26/12

to

Try running Robotic Liberation or Frogger '07 on it and get back to us...

Clocky

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May 26, 2012, 6:23:03 AM5/26/12

to

Chris Young wrote:
> On Thu, 24 May 2012 07:01:22 +0100 da kidz on comp.sys.sinclair were
> rappin' to MC Andrew Owen:
>
>> On 23/05/2012 23:32, Clocky wrote:
>>> Andrew Owen wrote:
>>>> On 22/05/2012 09:54, Clocky wrote:
>>>>> If you're going to pick a fight, come prepared with a worthy
>>>>> competitor. The C64 outclasses the ZX in every way, so no contest
>>>>> there. Next...
>>>>
>>>> My MacBook Air outclasses the C64 in every way, so no contest
>>>> there. Next ...
>>>
>>> You're right, so lets do a fair comparison and compare the ZX to a
>>> VIC-20...
>>
>> There's a VIC-20 emulator available for the Spectrum.
>
> But no Spectrum emulator available for the VIC-20. By default, the
> Spectrum wins this round. NEXT!
>

Nope, that emulator isn't worth jack shit.

Daniel Mandic

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May 26, 2012, 9:38:42 AM5/26/12

to

What rifle?

--
Daniel Mandic

Dombo

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May 26, 2012, 12:29:09 PM5/26/12

to

Op 24-May-12 19:15, Chris Young schreef:

> On Thu, 24 May 2012 07:01:22 +0100 da kidz on comp.sys.sinclair were rappin'
> to MC Andrew Owen:
>
>> On 23/05/2012 23:32, Clocky wrote:
>>> Andrew Owen wrote:
>>>> On 22/05/2012 09:54, Clocky wrote:
>>>>> If you're going to pick a fight, come prepared with a worthy
>>>>> competitor. The C64 outclasses the ZX in every way, so no contest there.
>>>>> Next...
>>>>
>>>> My MacBook Air outclasses the C64 in every way, so no contest there.
>>>> Next ...
>>>
>>> You're right, so lets do a fair comparison and compare the ZX to a VIC-20...
>>
>> There's a VIC-20 emulator available for the Spectrum.
>
> But no Spectrum emulator available for the VIC-20. By default, the
> Spectrum wins this round. NEXT!

There is a ZX Spectrum emulator for the C64 (god knows why), so by the
same logic the C64 wins. I'm glad we can finally put this topic to rest;
the flamewars aren't what they used to be.

Duncan Snowden

unread,

May 26, 2012, 2:53:27 PM5/26/12

to

On Sat, 26 May 2012 18:21:48 +0800
"Clocky" <not...@happen.com> wrote:

> Andrew Owen wrote:
> > There's a VIC-20 emulator available for the Spectrum.
>
> Try running Robotic Liberation or Frogger '07 on it and get back to
> us...

Well, yeah, okay, it's not perfect:

"As per the UK101 emulator, this program has a virtual 6502 core. It
emulates all the NMOS 6502 instructions and most of the CMOS 6502
instructions too. Only the BBS,BBR,STO,WAI,SMB and RMB instructions are
not implemented."

I bet those games use the unimplemented instructions, right?

--
Duncan Snowden.

Dombo

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May 26, 2012, 3:19:49 PM5/26/12

to

Op 26-May-12 20:53, Duncan Snowden schreef:

Chances are these programs rely on accurate emulation of the VIC chip
itself and also accurate timing (e.g. for raster-bars effects and other
tricks which require registers to be written at exactly the right time).
Emulation was even for PC's up until about a decade ago quite hard to do
it accurate enough so that 99.9% of the programs would run like on the
real thing.

If the programs use undocumented instructions the support for the CMOS
6502 instructions actually would work against it, since the opcodes of
the NMOS 6502 undocumented instructions (in reality just unintended
side effects) are used by CMOS 6502 for documented instructions with
other effects.

Matthew Westcott

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May 26, 2012, 3:56:37 PM5/26/12

to

I've noticed that the native Czechs I meet at demoparties seem to shun
Budvar, so I was beginning to suspect that it was the not-so-good (but
still-quite-good-in-the-grand-scheme-of-beers) stuff they were fobbing
foreigners off with. (Likewise with Finns and Lapin Kulta.)

Starobrno and Zlaty Bazant seem to be the overwhelming favourites.
(Also, in the last two weeks I've seen two pubs in the UK with Kozel on
tap, which is a positive development. Now, if only we can sort out the
little detail of it being six times the price it is in CZ...)

Clocky

unread,

May 26, 2012, 10:36:33 PM5/26/12

to

Daniel Mandic wrote:
> Clocky wrote:
>
>> Daniel Mandic wrote:
>>> Clocky wrote:
>
>>> Darker, less carbon dioxide, deeper taste.... (spicy, similar to
>>> budweisser)
>
>> Will try if I see it. And I know of Brno, I passed through there and
>> my rifle was made there too ;-)
>
> What rifle?

Brno .22 Model 2E

Clocky

unread,

May 26, 2012, 10:41:33 PM5/26/12

to

Matthew Westcott wrote:
> On 25/05/2012 22:48, Daniel Mandic wrote:
>> Clocky wrote:
>>
>>> If you are talking about the American crap called Budweiser then I
>>> agree wholeheartedly... but the real Czech Budweiser (Budvar) tasted
>>> bloody good when I was in Prague :-)
>>
>> so it is ;-)
>>
>> Try 'Staro Brno' ('Old Brno'; 'Brno' is a town...) next time, my
>> favourite beside Budweisser.
>> Darker, less carbon dioxide, deeper taste.... (spicy, similar to
>> budweisser)
>
> I've noticed that the native Czechs I meet at demoparties seem to shun
> Budvar, so I was beginning to suspect that it was the not-so-good (but
> still-quite-good-in-the-grand-scheme-of-beers) stuff they were fobbing
> foreigners off with. (Likewise with Finns and Lapin Kulta.)
>

Could be, but in any case it's better than the Fosters, Heinekin and Corona
et al rubbish they try to pass off as beer.

By far my favourites were Belgian beers anyway.

> Starobrno and Zlaty Bazant seem to be the overwhelming favourites.
> (Also, in the last two weeks I've seen two pubs in the UK with Kozel
> on tap, which is a positive development. Now, if only we can sort out
> the little detail of it being six times the price it is in CZ...)

I'll have to look out or those too.

Clocky

unread,

May 26, 2012, 10:48:30 PM5/26/12

to

Daniel Mandic wrote:
> Clocky wrote:
>
>> Whatever, it's not like the attribute clash fault and using faulty
>> 64k chips in the ZX were such elegant production solutions either.
>
> Paying several hundreds bucks more for a genius GfX-Chip was an other
> side, not having hi-res with colors, too.
>
> What 64k chips?

The broken ones they used in the ZX wired so the bad half wasn't used.
Bodgejob if ever there was one.

The mighty AMIGA had 32k RAM-chips AFAIK.

It never had broken 64k DRAMS.

>
>> Not having a joystick port is unforgiveable.
>
> Indeed, the ATARI Joystick-Port should remain where it has arose :-)

>
> Only the AMIGA-Mouse can deliver the ATARI Joystick Port to its
> highest level ;-). And it has...
>

Some of the consoles did wonder with it too.

> C-64 is a hack. Nice GfX Hardware (ANTIC is better) and very 'nice'
> soundchip (PAULA is better), but....

You are comparing apples and oranges, the C64 was released in 1982!

Clocky

unread,

May 26, 2012, 10:50:55 PM5/26/12

to

Dunno, but it won't run those programs at any rate, they require accurate
emulation not the mess that emulator makes of a real VIC-20.

As is a Spectrum could emulate a 6502 at 1Mhz and a VIC-I... sheez.

dott.Piergiorgio

unread,

May 27, 2012, 6:16:36 AM5/27/12

to

Il 27/05/2012 04:41, Clocky ha scritto:

> Could be, but in any case it's better than the Fosters, Heinekin and Corona
> et al rubbish they try to pass off as beer.

I don't drink much malt-based alcohol (I'm weak to malt-based alcohol, I
can drink 30°-40° Italian liquors w/o issue but a pint of beer (or
somewhat more) is enough for me) but I guess that there's should be
"everyday pints and "pub/special occasion" pints....

Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.

dott.Piergiorgio

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May 27, 2012, 6:25:55 AM5/27/12

to

Il 27/05/2012 04:48, Clocky ha scritto:

>>> Whatever, it's not like the attribute clash fault and using faulty
>>> 64k chips in the ZX were such elegant production solutions either.
>>
>> Paying several hundreds bucks more for a genius GfX-Chip was an other
>> side, not having hi-res with colors, too.
>>
>> What 64k chips?
>
> The broken ones they used in the ZX wired so the bad half wasn't used.
> Bodgejob if ever there was one.

yea, expanding a 16K issue 2 or 3 involves also welding a wire to a pad,
pointing the hardware to the working half.

another question, I *very* faintly remember, from early 80s, an "80K"
expansion, whose I suppose was somewhat like that used a full-working
64K RAM and some logic chip for bankswitching instead of the soldered
pad, I remember correctly or I'm wrong ?

Guesser

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May 27, 2012, 6:55:09 AM5/27/12

to

On 27/05/2012 03:48, Clocky wrote:
> The broken ones they used in the ZX wired so the bad half wasn't used.
> Bodgejob if ever there was one.
>

That's not a "bodge job" as it was designed that way from the start so
that cheaper chips could be utilized...

As someone already said, this is common these days in the semiconductor
industry, the only difference is that now the manufacturer sorts them
and labels the package appropriately.

Clocky

unread,

May 27, 2012, 9:40:40 AM5/27/12

to

Guesser wrote:
> On 27/05/2012 03:48, Clocky wrote:
>> The broken ones they used in the ZX wired so the bad half wasn't
>> used. Bodgejob if ever there was one.
>>
>
> That's not a "bodge job" as it was designed that way from the start so
> that cheaper chips could be utilized...
>

It certainly was a bodge job.

> As someone already said, this is common these days in the
> semiconductor industry, the only difference is that now the
> manufacturer sorts them and labels the package appropriately.

Yields are so high and RAM is so cheap that doing it is completely
unnecessary for anyone to do that.

Guesser

unread,

May 27, 2012, 9:57:54 AM5/27/12

to

On 27/05/2012 14:40, Clocky wrote:
> Yields are so high and RAM is so cheap that doing it is completely
> unnecessary for anyone to do that.

No they aren't, and they certainly weren't in 1982.

If yields were high and the part quality consistent then product binning
wouldn't exist.

Daniel Mandic

unread,

May 28, 2012, 8:56:54 AM5/28/12

to

Matthew Westcott wrote:

> I've noticed that the native Czechs I meet at demoparties seem to
> shun Budvar, so I was beginning to suspect that it was the
> not-so-good (but still-quite-good-in-the-grand-scheme-of-beers) stuff
> they were fobbing foreigners off with. (Likewise with Finns and Lapin
> Kulta.)

I wasn't a Goesser-Beer (austrian, styrian-beer, good water...) liker
before 7 or 9 years. It was too bitter for me.
It's still having the typical Goesser taste today, which many natives
dislike, but it got better for some reason (they broadbanded the taste,
IMHO ...it might be also that my taste changed) and it became my
favourite austrian beer.

Might be, that Bud did something similar, but IMO (indeed, Bud has been
better) they lost their old taste, most probably for profit reasons
(cheaper) :-(.
I am pretty sure they can again...

> Starobrno and Zlaty Bazant seem to be the overwhelming favourites.
> (Also, in the last two weeks I've seen two pubs in the UK with Kozel
> on tap, which is a positive development. Now, if only we can sort out
> the little detail of it being six times the price it is in CZ...)

A Kilkenny or a Guinness, might be even cheaper than in the U.K.,
here.... (it's not really more expensive than other
special-local-beers. Half a liter of Kilkenny, wonderful ale..., is
AFAIK about 3-4 Euro in an english or/and an irish 'kind' of pub here)

--
Daniel Mandic

deKay

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May 28, 2012, 10:07:09 AM5/28/12

to

On Thu, 24 May 2012, Clocky wrote:

>> Well that one is easy - neither.
>>
>> I'd struggle to even class either *as* beer.

>>
>
> If you are talking about the American crap called Budweiser then I agree
> wholeheartedly... but the real Czech Budweiser (Budvar) tasted bloody good
> when I was in Prague :-)

This is true.

deKay
--
Lofi Gaming - http://lofi-gaming.org.uk
Gaming Diary - http://lofi-gaming.org.uk/diary
Blog - http://lofi-gaming.org.uk/blog
My computer runs at 3.5MHz and I'm proud of that

Duncan Snowden

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May 28, 2012, 11:32:38 AM5/28/12

to

On Sun, 27 May 2012 10:50:55 +0800
"Clocky" <not...@happen.com> wrote:

> As if a Spectrum could emulate a 6502 at 1Mhz and a VIC-I... sheez.

Well, it does say it needs a 50MHz Spectrum. Not too many of those
about, to be fair.

--
Duncan Snowden.

Message has been deleted

Clocky

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May 29, 2012, 12:11:36 AM5/29/12

to

I wonder how well the ZX emulator for the C64 does with a SuperCPU...

Clocky

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May 30, 2012, 5:56:16 AM5/30/12

to

Andreas Kohlbach wrote:

> Matthew Westcott wrote on 26. May 2012:
>>
>> I've noticed that the native Czechs I meet at demoparties seem to
>> shun Budvar, so I was beginning to suspect that it was the
>> not-so-good (but still-quite-good-in-the-grand-scheme-of-beers)
>> stuff they were fobbing foreigners off with. (Likewise with Finns
>> and Lapin Kulta.)
>

> Seems many countries offer crappy beer mainly for export. The natives
> enjoy the better stuff, which might not be available abroad.
>
> I heard that for the Australian Foster's and the German Beck's. *g*

Not many in Australia drink Foster's, but there is worse beer domestically
that is much more popular, like VB. Becks is at least drinkable.

Message has been deleted

Martijn van Buul

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May 31, 2012, 3:16:55 AM5/31/12

to

* Andreas Kohlbach:
> I prefer Foster's over Beck's though. But Germans, Australians and other
> exporters have better beer they keep for themselves. :-)

Which is one of the reasons why noone in their sane mind will drink Heineken
Export out of free will.

--
Martijn van Buul - pi...@dohd.org

Clocky

unread,

May 31, 2012, 6:21:06 AM5/31/12

to

Martijn van Buul wrote:
> * Andreas Kohlbach:
>> I prefer Foster's over Beck's though. But Germans, Australians and
>> other exporters have better beer they keep for themselves. :-)
>
> Which is one of the reasons why noone in their sane mind will drink
> Heineken Export out of free will.

Heineken is shit, no question. 99% of Australian beers are crap too.
Give me a Belgian brew any day of the week...

Duncan Snowden

unread,

May 31, 2012, 12:34:47 PM5/31/12

to

AFAIK, it's only a BASIC interpreter with the C64's high-res mode
standing in as a reasonable facsimile of the Speccy's display, rather
than being a full emulator as most people would understand the term.
The closest thing to "emulation" is the reproduction of the Spectrum's
single-key entry BASIC editor. So it runs more or less full-speed on a
stock '64 (and is pretty impressive: fooled me the first time I saw it,
for what that's worth), but throwing more grunt at it won't improve
anything.

Unless things have moved on when I wasn't looking (which is entirely
possible). The fact that high-res mode and the Spectrum's display are
so similar means, I suspect, that a real emulator would definitely be
possible on a souped-up Commodore (although you'd still have to handle
the Spectrum's weird first-line/ninth-line/second-line... bitmap
layout, which I don't think it shares).

The more I look at the documentation of TwentyCommodes, the more flaws
I see. It's pretty limited in its VIC-I emulation too. But it is a
genuine emulator.

--
Duncan Snowden.

Mic

unread,

Jun 16, 2012, 7:37:05 PM6/16/12

to

dott.Piergiorgio ha scritto:

>
> another question, I *very* faintly remember, from early 80s, an "80K"
> expansion, whose I suppose was somewhat like that used a full-working
> 64K RAM and some logic chip for bankswitching instead of the soldered
> pad, I remember correctly or I'm wrong ?
>
> Best regards from Italy,
> dott. Piergiorgio.

Ricordi bene. All'inizio ce ne era anche una da 64K oltre che da 80K.
Non so come funzionasse quella da 64k, mentre quella da 80k era di due
tipi. Una a commutazione meccanica, cioè effettuava il bank-switching
semplicemente girando un deviatore e l'altra era software-controlled,
cioè la si gestiva tramite due istruzioni OUT.
E ricordo anche almeno tre distributori: la Nuova Newel che vendeva lo
spectrum già espanso a 64k e in seguito anche a 80k, oltre ai kit di
espansione. La Sandy che vendeva sia lo spectrum a 80k sia il kit di
espansione. La B&V Interface che vendeva la sola espansione a 80K.
Riguardo all'espansione a commutazione meccanica ricordo che a suo tempo
uscì anche un articolo su Sinclair Computer.