What does the merger of Adobe and Aldus hold for the future of their somewhat competing products: Illustrator from Adobe and Freehand (Virtuoso on NeXT) from Aldus (Altsys)?
Are these products going to be merged as well? How does the merger affect Altsys that is the actual developer of Freehand and Virtuoso?
Lorin?
-- Izumi Ohzawa [ 大澤五住 ] USMail: University of California, 360 Minor Hall, Berkeley, CA 94720 Telephone: (510) 642-6440 Fax: (510) 642-3323 Internet: iz...@pinoko.berkeley.edu (NeXTMail OK)
In article <2m88n2$...@agate.berkeley.edu>, iz...@pinoko.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: > What does the merger of Adobe and Aldus hold for the future of their > somewhat competing products: Illustrator from Adobe and Freehand > (Virtuoso on NeXT) from Aldus (Altsys)?
> Are these products going to be merged as well? > How does the merger affect Altsys that is the actual developer > of Freehand and Virtuoso?
Zowy! When did this happen? Where can I find details?
====================================================================== John Zollinger (NextMail Preferred) Programmer/Analyst ati06!obsidian!jo...@attati.attmail.com [Moore BCS - Logan, Utah] "Life is too important to take seriously." ======================================================================
Well as far as I know... Aldus and Altsys are two different companies. I can't imagine Adobe mergint with Aldus. Adobe produces Illustrator and Photoshop... Aldus produces Freehand... and Altsys produces Virtuoso
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- *-* Donald F. Bora | | | The Institute for the Learning Sciences | | O | Northwestern University | (--|--) Evanston, Ill | | e-mail: db...@ils.nwu.edu (Not NeXTMail) | / \ work: (708) 467-1972 | --------Be excellent to each other--------
In article <2m88n2$...@agate.berkeley.edu> iz...@pinoko.berkeley.edu writes: >What does the merger of Adobe and Aldus hold for the future of their >somewhat competing products: Illustrator from Adobe and Freehand >(Virtuoso on NeXT) from Aldus (Altsys)?
Nobody knows yet, and any statement to the contrary is pure speculation. The Adobe-Aldus merger that was just announced won't be consummated until about July, pending shareholder and regulatory approval. Heck, we don't even know what the name of the combined company will be. In the meantime, it's business as usual for both companies. -- Ed Taft t...@adobe.com ...decwrl!adobe!taft
iz...@pinoko.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: >What does the merger of Adobe and Aldus hold for the future of their >somewhat competing products: Illustrator from Adobe and Freehand >(Virtuoso on NeXT) from Aldus (Altsys)? >Are these products going to be merged as well? >How does the merger affect Altsys that is the actual developer >of Freehand and Virtuoso?
My optimistic guess is that Adobus will concentrate on Illustrator (for which it owns the sources) and let Altsys take back Freehand. Currently, Altsys is contractually prohibited from marketing an illustration package on Mac and Windows platforms (by agreement with Aldus). The big question is: what happens to this agreement after the merger?
If Adobus is scared of the competition, it will continue to prohibit Altsys from marketing a Freehand-like product, but it will concentrate its own efforts on Illustrator. This would be really unfortunate, since Freehand would basically stagnate then.
Of course, I don't know the terms of Altsys's agreement with Aldus, but it's possible they could regain the right to market on Mac and Windows if Aldus is no longer doing so.
-pd -- =========================================================================== ==== Peter Davis
In article <2ma684$...@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> db...@ils.nwu.edu (Don Bora) writes: >Well as far as I know... Aldus and Altsys are two different companies. >I can't imagine Adobe merging with Aldus. Adobe produces Illustrator >and Photoshop... Aldus produces Freehand... and Altsys produces Virtuoso
The merger story was in SF Chronicle Bus. section front page yesterday (Mar. 16). Not a 1-st class paper, but it can't be all bogus. There is also a posting from someone else as quoted below.
Yes, I know Aldus and Altsys are different companies, but as I understand it, BOTH (Aldus) Freehand and (Altsys) Virtuoso are really produced by Altsys. It so happens that Aldus just sells Freehand under its own label, and provide support for it.
Lorin at Altsys stated in the past that Virtuoso for NEXTSTEP will likely to be renamed to Freehand and possibly will be sold from Aldus as their product just like Freehand currently is (after all these two programs must share substantial amount of internal code, or soon they will. Even now, their PS prologs are nearly identical if you examine the PS files produced by Freehand and Virtuoso).
In any case, I thought it is likely that something will happen to these two products after Adobe-Aldus merger as these two are competing products. Also, since Altsys is the OEM supplier of Freehand and Virtuoso to Aldus, they seem to be in a awkward position in this merger. No? Being in the academia, I am no expert, but as a user of Virtuoso, I would like to know what the plans are.
>From: raj...@netcom.com (Rajeev Karunakaran) >Subject: Adobe and Aldus to merge >Message-ID: <rajeevCMsL29....@netcom.com> >Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) >Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 04:42:07 GMT
>In case you haven't heard...
>Adobe Systems and Aldus Corp, two of the leading makers of DTP software, >are merging to become the fifth largest software company. The new company >will be called Aldobe (my guess), and will be headquartered at Mountain >View, Calif. Both companies will continue to sell all of their current >product lines.
>Aldus, maker of PageMaker, is headquartered in Seattle. Aldus made a profit >of $9.5 million from sales of $206 million in 1993, and has 1000 employees.
>Adobe, maker of PostScript, is headquartered in Mountain View, Calif. Adobe >made a profit of $57 million from sales of $313 million in 1993, and has >1,100 employees.
>Executives of the two companies described the merger as a marriage of equals.
-- Izumi Ohzawa [ 大澤五住 ] USMail: University of California, 360 Minor Hall, Berkeley, CA 94720 Telephone: (510) 642-6440 Fax: (510) 642-3323 Internet: iz...@pinoko.berkeley.edu (NeXTMail OK)
In article <2ma684$...@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> db...@ils.nwu.edu (Don Bora) writes:
> Well as far as I know... Aldus and Altsys are two different companies. > I can't imagine Adobe mergint with Aldus. Adobe produces Illustrator > and Photoshop... Aldus produces Freehand... and Altsys produces Virtuoso
Actually, Adobe bought Aldus as was announced on Monday of this week. Adobe's stock went down and Aldus' stock rose $.75 on Tuesday.
Lorin is not at Altsys this week, however, no one at Altsys really knows what will happen with the two competing products on the Mac and PC Freehand/Illustrator. They themselves are waiting to see and brought up the possibility of them marketing Freehand on their own or by another third party. I always call Freehand the Mac version of Virtuoso anyhow. The technology was only licensed to Aldus.
Dave
-- Paradigm Shift, Inc. i...@paradigm-shift.com A NeXTSTEP-only Reseller 919.682.8553 [Voice] Hardware, Software & Peripherals 919.682.1126 [Fax]
***** INSTANT APPROVAL ON POs ORIGINATING FROM SCHOOLS and GOVT. AGENCIES *****
In article <2mae6c$...@inxs.concert.net> i...@paradigm-shift.com writes: >In article <2ma684$...@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> db...@ils.nwu.edu (Don Bora) >writes: >> Well as far as I know... Aldus and Altsys are two different companies. >> I can't imagine Adobe mergint with Aldus. Adobe produces Illustrator >> and Photoshop... Aldus produces Freehand... and Altsys produces Virtuoso
>Actually, Adobe bought Aldus as was announced on Monday of this week. Adobe's >stock went down and Aldus' stock rose $.75 on Tuesday.
Actually, it was more of a merger and it is not yet complete. It still has to be approved by the majority of the shareholders. This is supposed to happen around July when all of the Aldus magically becomes 1.15x more Adobe stock.
Apparently, the CEO at Aldus wanted to step down and the options were to either find a new CEO or merge with a company with established management. Also, on their own, Aldus could be too easily jarred by products from their neighbor in Redmond, so the merger with Adobe is a good thing to protect Aldus from Microsoft. (In case you don't see the Microsoft threat to Aldus, MS could develop and afford to sell a DTP package at a loss long enough to kill Aldus. This is harder to do with the Aldus/Adobe combo.)
Now, I wasn't aware of this, but Aldus and Altsys were apparently battling over the name "Freehand". Does anyone have details on this? If there is some legal wrangling between Aldus and Altsys, this Adobe deal seems like a good out for Aldus (as they wouldn't be missing a product in that market). Altsys may be out in the cold.
Oh, well. I am running Illustrator on my NeXT anyway.
Other interesting speculation that doesn't belong in this newsgroup is what happens to Quark.
-- ----------------------------+---------------------------------------------- - Alan F. Perry | Life is short, but by achieving greater speeds al...@eng.sun.com (work) | a man can make his life a little longer and esp...@netcom.com (home) | more affluent - Soichiro Honda
> In article <2m88n2$...@agate.berkeley.edu>, iz...@pinoko.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: > > What does the merger of Adobe and Aldus hold for the future of their > > somewhat competing products: Illustrator from Adobe and Freehand > > (Virtuoso on NeXT) from Aldus (Altsys)?
> > Are these products going to be merged as well? > > How does the merger affect Altsys that is the actual developer > > of Freehand and Virtuoso?
> Zowy! When did this happen? Where can I find details?
Adobe and Aldus signed an agreement on the 15th to merge, although it must be approved by the FTC and so forth before it's final. No specific plans have been announced for any of the products so far. There should be a press release somewhere on the net, and I don't want to go out on any limbs, since I work there (although it took most of us by surprise too :-)
One share of Aldus stock is to be worth 1.15 shares of Adobe stock, as I understand it. John Warnock will remain CEO of the merged company, Chuck Geschke the President, and who knows from there. Paul Brainerd, the current CEO of Aldus, is to take a seat on the board of directors. This is all in the press release, as are some other things that I can't remember, like combined revenues, etc., etc. Draw your own conclusions, of course.
-- Glenn Reid gl...@rightbrain.com / gr...@mv.us.adobe.com Woodside, California speaking only for myself
In article <espritCMu7z3....@netcom.com> esp...@netcom.com (Alan F. Perry) writes:
> Actually, it was more of a merger and it is not yet complete. It still has > to be approved by the majority of the shareholders. This is supposed to > happen around July when all of the Aldus magically becomes 1.15x more Adobe > stock.
Yes in a legal sense it was a merger, however, if you look at the numbers (which I am sure Brainerd did, Adobe's doing quite well and Aldus had quite a bit less profit on roughly (I believe) the same amount of revenues as Adobe.
Quark has hurt Aldus' PageMaker sales in a major way (too bad Quark never finished their NeXTSTEP port) ):-(
Dave -- Paradigm Shift, Inc. i...@paradigm-shift.com A NeXTSTEP-only Reseller 919.682.8553 [Voice] Hardware, Software & Peripherals 919.682.1126 [Fax]
***** INSTANT APPROVAL ON POs ORIGINATING FROM SCHOOLS and GOVT. AGENCIES *****
In article <2m88n2$...@agate.berkeley.edu> iz...@pinoko.berkeley.edu writes: >What does the merger of Adobe and Aldus hold for the future of their >somewhat competing products: Illustrator from Adobe and Freehand >(Virtuoso on NeXT) from Aldus (Altsys)?
I hope like all heck it means they're going to keep Illustrator and sh*tcan that awful piece of dreck, Freehand.
Sorry, no smileys for this one. -- Look for me under the arc lights, boys . . . . -- Bill Veeck, _Veeck_as_in_Wreck_ ======================================================================== John Viggiano, js...@rc.rit.edu or sjv...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu NAR 25615 I'm the NAR, and I vote!
In article <1994Mar18.034300.2...@ultb.isc.rit.edu> js...@edison.rc.rit.edu (J
A Stephen Viggiano) writes: >>In article <2m88n2$...@agate.berkeley.edu> iz...@pinoko.berkeley.edu writes: >>>What does the merger of Adobe and Aldus hold for the future of their >>>somewhat competing products: Illustrator from Adobe and Freehand >>>(Virtuoso on NeXT) from Aldus (Altsys)?
>>I hope like all heck it means they're going to keep Illustrator and >>sh*tcan that awful piece of dreck, Freehand.
>>Sorry, no smileys for this one. >>--
Let me re-iterate this...but in reverse! I hate Illustrator.
No smilies and no apologies either.
-- Ronald Pomeroy Advanced Micro Devices CAM Applications Group rpome...@aunext1.amd.com
db...@ils.nwu.edu (Don Bora) writes: >Well as far as I know... Aldus and Altsys are two different companies. >I can't imagine Adobe mergint with Aldus. Adobe produces Illustrator >and Photoshop... Aldus produces Freehand... and Altsys produces Virtuoso
Wrongo! Freehand is written by Altsys under contract with Aldus, who markets the product.
-- =========================================================================== ==== Peter Davis
Ron Pomeroy x(Coop) writes: >>> I hope like all heck it means they're going to keep Illustrator and >>> sh*tcan that awful piece of dreck, Freehand. >>> Sorry, no smileys for this one. --
Ron> Let me re-iterate this...but in reverse! I hate Illustrator.
Ron> No smilies and no apologies either.
<Speaking *completely* for myself, as if you didn't know...>
Both products have their loyal following. Personally, being one of the "DPS fanatics", I hope they *both* stay around. Virtuoso is the best proof that a Display PostScript can be fast given good programmers that I've seen yet. (And I hear that the difference in speeds between the NeWS and upcoming DPS versions on Solaris will shock some people into believing... ;-)
And Illustrator? Well, we've gotten some politics out of the way. Truth is, we've still got some more to work on. And if the NeXT community still wants it, they're going to have to show a demand for it. Our applications (*very* unfortunately) don't get originally developed on Unix, and so take more work than might make business sense.
-- Scott Byer NeXTMail: b...@mv.us.adobe.com Adobe Systems Incorporated These are *my* opinions, and 1585 Charleston Road, P.O. Box 7900 do not necessarily reflect Mountain View, CA 94039-7900 the opinions of my employer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> I hope like all heck it means they're going to keep Illustrator and >>>>> sh*tcan that awful piece of dreck, Freehand.
>>>>> Sorry, no smileys for this one. --
>>Ron> Let me re-iterate this...but in reverse! I hate Illustrator.
>>Ron> No smilies and no apologies either.
>><Speaking *completely* for myself, as if you didn't know...>
>>Both products have their loyal following. Personally, being one of the "DPS >>fanatics", I hope they *both* stay around. Virtuoso is the best proof that >>a Display PostScript can be fast given good programmers that I've seen yet. >>(And I hear that the difference in speeds between the NeWS and upcoming DPS >>versions on Solaris will shock some people into believing... ;-)
>>And Illustrator? Well, we've gotten some politics out of the way. Truth >>is, we've still got some more to work on. And if the NeXT community still >>wants it, they're going to have to show a demand for it. Our applications >>(*very* unfortunately) don't get originally developed on Unix, and so take >>more work than might make business sense.
>>--
Gosh, I feel kinda' bad using that word "hate" - especially since Scott has answered numerous (often stupid) questions in the past for me.
Let's just say that I find AI extremely un-intuitive and difficult to use. It does have the coolest tool panel around though. It's always difficult engineering a product for both the novice and the advanced user. I also hope both products prosper and improve. More importantly I hope both find there way to OpenStep implementations.
Scott and Co.:Keep up the good work!
-- Ronald Pomeroy Advanced Micro Devices CAM Applications Group rpome...@aunext1.amd.com
In article <1994Mar18.034300.2...@ultb.isc.rit.edu> js...@edison.rc.rit.edu (J
A Stephen Viggiano) writes: > I hope like all heck it means they're going to keep Illustrator and > sh*tcan that awful piece of dreck, Freehand.
Yeah, whose Version 6 of their own product has problems opening Version 3 files, product on the NeXT you probably won't see past it's current version (although RightBrain was going to update Illustrator as of last NeXTworld Expo).
Illustrator may have been the standard but Aldus has been good at upsetting that standard.
Dave -- Paradigm Shift, Inc. i...@paradigm-shift.com A NeXTSTEP-only Reseller 919.682.8553 [Voice] Hardware, Software & Peripherals 919.682.1126 [Fax]
***** INSTANT APPROVAL ON POs ORIGINATING FROM SCHOOLS and GOVT. AGENCIES *****
In article <1994Mar18.034300.2...@ultb.isc.rit.edu> js...@edison.rc.rit.edu (J A Stephen Viggiano) writes:
>In article <2m88n2$...@agate.berkeley.edu> iz...@pinoko.berkeley.edu writes: >>What does the merger of Adobe and Aldus hold for the future of their >>somewhat competing products: Illustrator from Adobe and Freehand >>(Virtuoso on NeXT) from Aldus (Altsys)?
>I hope like all heck it means they're going to keep Illustrator and >sh*tcan that awful piece of dreck, Freehand.
Well, I'm kinda sorry to here you say that, since I wrote part of FreeHand. You (and the Illustrator fans) have your opinion, and the FreeHand fans (including the AP News wire) may have differing opinions. I am no longer connected with any of the parties mentioned, or have a copy of either product (except for my copy of Virtuoso/Sun, but I don't have a Sun, so I haven't removed the shrink-wrap yet 8-)
The rumors I've heard are: 1) The no-compete clause was removed from the Aldus/Altsys contract some time after Aldus Intellidraw came out. Altsys still needed the FreeHand money, and Aldus didn't want to throw away their number 2 product. 2) Someone at Altsys told me the clause is still in the contract. (Extenuating factoid: I wasn't privy to the contract, and wasn't paying much attention when all this was happening. The someone at Altsys is also not privy to seeing the actual contract as far as I know.) 3) Altsys was told of the merger about 12-24 hours before the press release. 4) Nobody, including Brainerd, Warnok, and Von Ehr have decided what to do.
Possibilities include: 1) Adobus gives FreeHand back to Altsys. 2) Adobus buys FreeHand from Altsys. 3) Things stay the same, Adobus sells both Illustrator and FreeHand. Other possible factoids: I think Aldus owns the FreeHand trademark (hence Altsys Virtuoso, instead of Altsys FreeHand, for NeXT and Sun) I don't THINK Von Ehr wants to sell the company, but he MIGHT be worried that the loss of FreeHand support from Aldus will slowly kill FreeHand and hence will sell. Alternatively, he might want to get some of the marketing and support people from Aldus (or they may get the axe in the merge) and try taking the whole job on their own.
The bottom line is: at the moment, there are too many variables, and it's WAY TOO EARLY to tell what's going on, let alone what's going to happen.
In article <2mjff8$...@nkosi.well.com> lud...@well.sf.ca.us (Michael Rutchik) writes:
> Here's your first vote (demand) to get Illustrator (back) onto the > NEXTSTEP platform. With several gigabytes worth of Illustrator files > and dozens of vendors (design firms and pre-press houses) who > use Illustrator exclusively for all our projects, I am currently > forced into dealing with a mixed Mac/NEXTSTEP environment.
> If Illustrator 5 ran on NS/FIP 3.2 I could complete the migration > to NS and lead a completely integrated life. I could also encourage > our many vendors to move to NEXTSTEP!
> Please port Illustrator soon!
If Illustrator (V) ran under NeXTSTEP it too, probably wouldn't be able to open Version 3 files of it's own files, like I believe neither the Mac or the PC can.
;-)
Dave -- Paradigm Shift, Inc. i...@paradigm-shift.com A NeXTSTEP-only Reseller 919.682.8553 [Voice] Hardware, Software & Peripherals 919.682.1126 [Fax]
***** INSTANT APPROVAL ON POs ORIGINATING FROM SCHOOLS and GOVT. AGENCIES *****
> In article <2mjff8$...@nkosi.well.com> lud...@well.sf.ca.us (Michael Rutchik) > writes:
>> Here's your first vote (demand) to get Illustrator (back) onto the >> NEXTSTEP platform. With several gigabytes worth of Illustrator files >> and dozens of vendors (design firms and pre-press houses) who >> use Illustrator exclusively for all our projects, I am currently >> forced into dealing with a mixed Mac/NEXTSTEP environment.
>> If Illustrator 5 ran on NS/FIP 3.2 I could complete the migration >> to NS and lead a completely integrated life. I could also encourage >> our many vendors to move to NEXTSTEP!
>> Please port Illustrator soon!
> If Illustrator (V) ran under NeXTSTEP it too, probably wouldn't be able to open > Version 3 files of it's own files, like I believe neither the Mac or the PC > can.
Why not just use Virtuoso. It will allow you to open Illustrator v3 files and play around with them just like they were a native Virtuoso document. You could then save it out as a Virtuoso document, or save it out as an Illustrator v3 file. We do this quite often, and haven't had any problems. It also works fine with Freehand files (of course).
====================================================================== John Zollinger (NextMail Preferred) Programmer/Analyst ati06!obsidian!jo...@attati.attmail.com [Moore BCS - Logan, Utah] "Life is too important to take seriously." ======================================================================
In article <1994Mar18.034300.2...@ultb.isc.rit.edu> js...@edison.rc.rit.edu (J
A Stephen Viggiano) writes: > In article <2m88n2$...@agate.berkeley.edu> iz...@pinoko.berkeley.edu writes: > >What does the merger of Adobe and Aldus hold for the future of their > >somewhat competing products: Illustrator from Adobe and Freehand > >(Virtuoso on NeXT) from Aldus (Altsys)?
> I hope like all heck it means they're going to keep Illustrator and > sh*tcan that awful piece of dreck, Freehand.
> Sorry, no smileys for this one. > -- > Look for me under the arc lights, boys . . . .
-- Bill Veeck, _Veeck_as_in_Wreck_
> ======================================================================== > John Viggiano, js...@rc.rit.edu or sjv...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu > NAR 25615 I'm the NAR, and I vote!
ATTENTION: The following text is a full flame attack using explicit words ...
Hey John, shut up when you don't know what you're talking about !!!
The battle between Illustrator and Freehand/Virtuoso lasts longer than some users know how to spell DTP. And today you can ask _professional_ graphic-designer all over the world, what they prefer:
The majority votes for Freehand, because it allows to do you work smoothly and intuitively !
Far too many DUMB amateurs believe, that they so almighty CREATIVE because they could afford to buy an impressive DTP-app. Take a look at business reports, advertising, self-made-logos: All these STINK from BORING design, ridiculous ideas and TERRIBLE hand-craft !
Illustrator (especially the new 5.0) still hasn't learned to get rid of those FUCKING dialogs, but flashes users with oh-so-nice gradients and automatic filters, which only brain-dead "designers" will use !
Freehand rules and Illustrator SUCKS !
FLAMING MODE OFF
Sorry Netters, but these words had to be spoken out ...
-- ****************************************** Michael Burgstahler mb...@westwerk.cube.de (NeXTmail welcome)
Two Tribes Informationsgestaltung GmbH Forststrasse 163/1 70193 Stuttgart GERMANY Fon 0711 / 638360 Fax 0711 / 634696 ****************************************** -- ****************************************** Michael Burgstahler mb...@westwerk.cube.de (NeXTmail welcome) University of Stuttgart 2nd. Dpt. of Theoretical Physics
Don't candy-coat it Michael, tell us how you really feel! Thanks for the kind words too. Of course I too am biased towards FreeHand and its evil twin Virtuoso. Although I must say there is some cool stuff in AI 5. -- Lorin Rivers Lorin_Riv...@altsys.com NEXTSTEP Sales Manager 214.680.2060 269 W. Renner Parkway NeXT Mail Expected Richardson, Texas 75080 I said it, not my boss
> Illustrator (especially the new 5.0) still hasn't learned to get rid of > those FUCKING dialogs, but flashes users with oh-so-nice gradients and > automatic filters, which only brain-dead "designers" will use ! > Freehand rules and Illustrator SUCKS !
How old are you? Illustrator and Freehand are both very professional products with sophisticated features, and lots of professional designers get work done with both of them. You really don't impress anyone, except perhaps yourself, with this kind of ranting on the net.
Although I do have to concede that I was in Fry's Electronics the other night and there were two people trying to decide whether to buy Illustrator or Freehand. One of them said, "but I read on the net that Freehand rules and Illustrator SUCKS!" and it really seemed to sway the buying decision.
-- Glenn Reid gl...@rightbrain.com Woodside, California
gl...@rightbrain.com (Glenn Reid) writes: >Michael Burgstahler writes >> Illustrator (especially the new 5.0) still hasn't learned to get rid of >> those FUCKING dialogs, but flashes users with oh-so-nice gradients and >> automatic filters, which only brain-dead "designers" will use ! >> Freehand rules and Illustrator SUCKS ! >How old are you? Illustrator and Freehand are both very professional >products with sophisticated features, and lots of professional >designers get work done with both of them. You really don't impress >anyone, except perhaps yourself, with this kind of ranting on the net.
Glenn, you should know that "lots of professional ... (insert your favourite job profile) use it" is a bad argument for the capabilities of software. Lots of professional ... even use MS Windows, and get work done with it. But is DOS/Windows a good OS due to this?
Many very professional apps got into a state of "overfeaturism". In order to provide bells and whistles for the next update release (the marketing department has to announce new features, what else), some apps were blown up with zillions of features, dialogs, panels, wizards, inspectors,... My best example for it is MS Word for Windows 6.0, but enough other apps fit into the same category. You finally know what you have bought if all your free disk space has disappeared and it's time to breakfast each time you launch your application.
Virtuoso/FreeHand is my very best example _against_ this tendency of overfeaturism. It has any function/feature you need for good and professional DTP, but the user interface to access these features is very simple and intuitive. Personally, I never managed to work so intuitively with Illustrator.
>Although I do have to concede that I was in Fry's Electronics the >other night and there were two people trying to decide whether to >buy Illustrator or Freehand. One of them said, "but I read on the net >that Freehand rules and Illustrator SUCKS!" and it really seemed to >sway the buying decision.
IMHO, they did not make a bad decision if they decided for FH. I wouldn't use M. Burgstahler's words, but in result he's right.
> > Illustrator (especially the new 5.0) still hasn't learned to get rid of > > those FUCKING dialogs, but flashes users with oh-so-nice gradients and > > automatic filters, which only brain-dead "designers" will use !
> > Freehand rules and Illustrator SUCKS !
> How old are you? Illustrator and Freehand are both very professional > products with sophisticated features, and lots of professional > designers get work done with both of them. You really don't impress > anyone, except perhaps yourself, with this kind of ranting on the net.
> Although I do have to concede that I was in Fry's Electronics the > other night and there were two people trying to decide whether to > buy Illustrator or Freehand. One of them said, "but I read on the net > that Freehand rules and Illustrator SUCKS!" and it really seemed to > sway the buying decision.
Sorry about those open words, but that time is felt really provocated by the silly Illu/Virty-comparison in the previous posting. I'm getting angry when people talk to a large audience about the quality of software and apparently haven't done an intensive and fair comparison. Unfortunately one can see the results of such disinformation in our computer world today. I think, this was and still is one of the fundamentals of the DOS/WIN-success: Alternatives (e.g. NEXTSTEP) are not discussed seriously and decisions are made with lacking knowledge of disadvantages.
I'm doing business using graphics software for several years and have laid my hand on many apps on different platforms. I've given courses for graphics software as well. Illustrator and Freehand/Virtuoso were my tools for numerous productions of brochures, folders, ads, presentations, etc. I used both on MacIntosh and NEXTSTEP under the pressure of short deadlines, limited budget and customers demands. In the end I have learned to evaluate the basic approach of Freehand/Virtuoso much more than the (IMHO few) better functions of Illustrator. Until Illu5.0 you couldn't have layers - what a mess!
Another problem lies in the professional use of apps like Illustrator and Freehand. Since the dawn of DTP/PostScript you can create templates for professional printing with only an affordable computer - and without professional knowledge of design, typo & production. The stunning results are visible everwhere and everyday in printed matter: Try to spot the used graphics software in an advertising. You can easily identify special functions of Freehand, CorelDraw, PhotoShop in numerous printings - executed with standard parameters!
Using all those nice filter functions and built-in 3D-distortions isn't creative and mostly has nothing to do with the contents/message, which should be transported to the viewer. Illustrator 5.0 goes the many-nice-filters way and joins the lots-of-parameters-path, whereas Freehand/Virtuoso is concentrating on ease-of-use, seamless production and silent flexibility.
Illustrator 5.0 has more features, functions, parameters and panels. But this is also true for Word, Excel, WordPerfect, 1-2-3 and so on. And all these latter apps offer things like "Assistants", "OnlineGuides", "Tutors" to explain the growing universe of menu cells.
When you're doing business in graphic design honestly, you shouldn't be aware of using a special graphics software. It should feel as natural as a pencil - and this is IMHO definitely more fulfilled by Freehand/Virtuoso than by Illustrator.
-- ****************************************** Michael Burgstahler mb...@westwerk.cube.de (NeXTmail welcome) University of Stuttgart 2nd. Dpt. of Theoretical Physics
Two Tribes Informationsgestaltung GmbH Forststrasse 163/1 70193 Stuttgart GERMANY Fon 0711 / 638360 Fax 0711 / 634696 ****************************************** -- ****************************************** Michael Burgstahler mb...@westwerk.cube.de (NeXTmail welcome) University of Stuttgart 2nd. Dpt. of Theoretical Physics
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