Re: was so touched I almost “Icried”

[Alan Browne]

On 2013.04.01 17:27 , Michelle Steiner wrote:
> This is not an April Fool.
>
> http://elliott.org/blog/i-was-so-touched-i-almost-cried/

Lovely.

Then there's

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/02/technology/apples-chief-tim-cook-apologizes-to-china-over-warranty-policy.html?hp

--
"There were, unfortunately, no great principles on which parties
were divided – politics became a mere struggle for office."
-Sir John A. Macdonald

[Jason Bourne]

On 4/1/13 5:27 PM, Michelle Steiner wrote:
> This is not an April Fool.
>
> http://elliott.org/blog/i-was-so-touched-i-almost-cried/
>
>

> April 1, 2013
>
> GuoZhongHua / Shutterstock.com
> LuAnn Ezeonu’s son is a United States Marine deployed in Afghanistan. A
> year ago, before he left the country, he bought a laptop computer and an
> iPod from the Apple Store at the Flatiron Crossing Mall in Broomfield, Colo.
>
> By the time he returned to the States, his electronics were in bad shape.
> Which is where today’s story of unbelievable customer service picks up:
> with Ezeonu’s son bringing the dented equipment back to Apple after his
> deployment.
>
> “He returned from his first deployment with a computer and iPod that were
> dusty, sandy, beat up and the disk drive in the computer wasn’t working,”
> she remembers. “We took it to this same Apple store.”
>
> Ezeonu’s son asked the technicians to fix the hard drive, nothing more. But
> they knew he was a Marine — they remembered him from his first visit a year
> ago when he bought both gadgets — and in talking with him, they also
> learned that he was about to return to Afghanistan.
>
> “The techs at the store took the computer cleaned it, fixed the disk drive,
> got him a new charging cord and then took the iPod and cleaned it up also,”
> says Ezeonu.
>
> “When we returned a couple hours later to pick up and pay, we were told
> that it was the least they could do in return for his service,” she says.
> “I was so touched I almost cried.”
>
> When I heard her story, I almost did, too.
>
> Here’s the thing: We talk a lot about how grateful we are to members of the
> armed services for the sacrifice they’ve made for our country, but so
> often, it’s just that — talk.
>
> When it comes time to actually say “thank you” in a meaningful way, the
> “geniuses” at the Apple Store in Broomfield, Colo., did something. They
> went above and beyond their call of duty and they refused to take the
> Marine’s money.
>
> I salute them. And I join them in thanking Ezeonu’s son for his service.
> But that’s not all. The young man was so impressed by the actions of the
> Apple employees that day that he decided to give the company his business
> again. He spent his hard-earned money on a new iPhone.
>
> “Because of the service and kindness of these Apple employees, they now
> have a life-long customer,” says Ezeonu.
>
> Apple is this week’s recipient of the Elliott Award for Excellent Customer
> Service. Here’s wishing Ezeonu’s son all the best in his deployment and
> speedy, safe return.
>
> If you’ve experienced excellent customer service recently, please let me
> know about it. We’re recognizing companies who go above and beyond the call
> of duty in a new weekly feature.
>

Yeah, well the brave and patriotic jarhead would have been better served
with mil spec or hardened devices (like Panasonic ToughBook, for
example) instead of those bright and shiny Apple glitz boxes...

[JF Mezei]

On 13-04-01 17:27, Michelle Steiner wrote:
> This is not an April Fool.

> �When we returned a couple hours later to pick up and pay,


Are you sure ? "A couple of hours later" is not something Apple stores
generally do. They usualy ask you to bring the machine in for evaluation
which lasts a few days, then they contact you to authorize the repairs
at which point they order the spare parts from some distribution centre
if they don't have them. (That is what would have happened if I had had
Apple change my MacPro's power supply.)



I am not doubting the story though. I guess an Apple store manager has a
certain degree of latitude and it is good to see them waive the
standard procedures for someone they highly respect.

[JF Mezei]

On 13-04-01 18:23, Jason Bourne wrote:

> Yeah, well the brave and patriotic jarhead would have been better served
> with mil spec or hardened devices (like Panasonic ToughBook, for
> example) instead of those bright and shiny Apple glitz boxes...

MacBookPros are fairly robust and well built. They may not be
"hardened" devices, but they probably stand at the top of consumer
laptops for ability to survive in a tough environment.

[George Kerby]

On 4/1/13 4:27 PM, in article
michelle-7D1DAD...@news.eternal-september.org, "Michelle

Steiner" <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:

> This is not an April Fool.
>

> http://elliott.org/blog/i-was-so-touched-i-almost-cried/
>
>
> April 1, 2013
>
> GuoZhongHua / Shutterstock.com
> LuAnn Ezeonu�s son is a United States Marine deployed in Afghanistan. A
> year ago, before he left the country, he bought a laptop computer and an
> iPod from the Apple Store at the Flatiron Crossing Mall in Broomfield, Colo.
>
> By the time he returned to the States, his electronics were in bad shape.
> Which is where today�s story of unbelievable customer service picks up:
> with Ezeonu�s son bringing the dented equipment back to Apple after his
> deployment.
>
> �He returned from his first deployment with a computer and iPod that were
> dusty, sandy, beat up and the disk drive in the computer wasn�t working,�
> she remembers. �We took it to this same Apple store.�
>
> Ezeonu�s son asked the technicians to fix the hard drive, nothing more. But
> they knew he was a Marine � they remembered him from his first visit a year
> ago when he bought both gadgets � and in talking with him, they also
> learned that he was about to return to Afghanistan.
>
> �The techs at the store took the computer cleaned it, fixed the disk drive,
> got him a new charging cord and then took the iPod and cleaned it up also,�
> says Ezeonu.
>

> �When we returned a couple hours later to pick up and pay, we were told

> that it was the least they could do in return for his service,� she says.
> �I was so touched I almost cried.�
>
> When I heard her story, I almost did, too.
>
> Here�s the thing: We talk a lot about how grateful we are to members of the
> armed services for the sacrifice they�ve made for our country, but so
> often, it�s just that � talk.
>
> When it comes time to actually say �thank you� in a meaningful way, the
> �geniuses� at the Apple Store in Broomfield, Colo., did something. They
> went above and beyond their call of duty and they refused to take the
> Marine�s money.
>
> I salute them. And I join them in thanking Ezeonu�s son for his service.
> But that�s not all. The young man was so impressed by the actions of the
> Apple employees that day that he decided to give the company his business
> again. He spent his hard-earned money on a new iPhone.
>
> �Because of the service and kindness of these Apple employees, they now
> have a life-long customer,� says Ezeonu.
>
> Apple is this week�s recipient of the Elliott Award for Excellent Customer
> Service. Here�s wishing Ezeonu�s son all the best in his deployment and
> speedy, safe return.
>
> If you�ve experienced excellent customer service recently, please let me
> know about it. We�re recognizing companies who go above and beyond the call
> of duty in a new weekly feature.

An excellent story. THANKS for posting it, Michelle!

[George Kerby]

On 4/1/13 5:23 PM, in article kjd1de$nss$1...@news.albasani.net, "Jason Bourne"

Fuck your ass with a splintered broomstick dipped in Hci, mouthbreather.

[George Kerby]

On 4/1/13 4:29 PM, in article EISdnRp8g_nVYcTM...@giganews.com,

"Alan Browne" <alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> On 2013.04.01 17:27 , Michelle Steiner wrote:
>> This is not an April Fool.
>>
>> http://elliott.org/blog/i-was-so-touched-i-almost-cried/
>
> Lovely.
>
> Then there's
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/02/technology/apples-chief-tim-cook-apologizes-
> to-china-over-warranty-policy.html?hp

I have NO idea why he is kissing ass of the ChiComs.

It damn sure isn't helping the company image or stock price...

[Davoud]

George Kerby:

> > I have NO idea why he is kissing ass of the ChiComs.

Michelle Steiner:
> Because he wants to keep doing business there.

Chicoms? Someone's got their head stuck in 1964. Communism in the
world's largest predatory capitalist oligarchy? Really? The so-called
PRC was never the peoples' republic and it certainly never was
communist.

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

[DevilsPGD]

In the last episode of
<michelle-12AD88...@news.eternal-september.org>, Michelle
Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> said:

>In article <515a1428$0$38184$c3e8da3$f626...@news.astraweb.com>,

> JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
>> Are you sure ? "A couple of hours later" is not something Apple stores
>> generally do.
>

>Sure is. It doesn't take long to analyze the problem in many cases, and if
>they have the part in stock, you can have the item back within a few hours.

Apple is exceedingly inconsistent in this area. I've been told they were
too busy to even take my iPhone in and that I had to make an appointment
to drop it off because they had too many other broken iPhones ahead of
me in the queue.

Other times, you'll get service shortly after arriving at the store.

--
The nice thing about standards, there is enough for everyone to have their own.

[News]

On 4/1/2013 9:13 PM, George Kerby wrote:
>
>
> I have NO idea why he is kissing ass of the ChiComs.
>
> It damn sure isn't helping the company image or stock price...
>

Surely, kissing Kim Jung Un's butt is next.

[Jason Bourne]

On 4/1/13 8:55 PM, George Kerby wrote:
>
>
>
> On 4/1/13 5:23 PM, in article kjd1de$nss$1...@news.albasani.net, "Jason Bourne"
> <ja...@blackbriar.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/1/13 5:27 PM, Michelle Steiner wrote:
>>> This is not an April Fool.
>>>
>>> http://elliott.org/blog/i-was-so-touched-i-almost-cried/
>>>
>>>
>>> April 1, 2013
>>>
>>> GuoZhongHua / Shutterstock.com

>>> LuAnn Ezeonu�s son is a United States Marine deployed in Afghanistan. A

>>> year ago, before he left the country, he bought a laptop computer and an
>>> iPod from the Apple Store at the Flatiron Crossing Mall in Broomfield, Colo.
>>>
>>> By the time he returned to the States, his electronics were in bad shape.

>>> Which is where today�s story of unbelievable customer service picks up:
>>> with Ezeonu�s son bringing the dented equipment back to Apple after his
>>> deployment.
>>>
>>> �He returned from his first deployment with a computer and iPod that were
>>> dusty, sandy, beat up and the disk drive in the computer wasn�t working,�
>>> she remembers. �We took it to this same Apple store.�
>>>
>>> Ezeonu�s son asked the technicians to fix the hard drive, nothing more. But
>>> they knew he was a Marine � they remembered him from his first visit a year
>>> ago when he bought both gadgets � and in talking with him, they also

>>> learned that he was about to return to Afghanistan.
>>>

>>> �The techs at the store took the computer cleaned it, fixed the disk drive,
>>> got him a new charging cord and then took the iPod and cleaned it up also,�
>>> says Ezeonu.
>>>
>>> �When we returned a couple hours later to pick up and pay, we were told
>>> that it was the least they could do in return for his service,� she says.
>>> �I was so touched I almost cried.�

>>>
>>> When I heard her story, I almost did, too.
>>>

>>> Here�s the thing: We talk a lot about how grateful we are to members of the
>>> armed services for the sacrifice they�ve made for our country, but so
>>> often, it�s just that � talk.
>>>
>>> When it comes time to actually say �thank you� in a meaningful way, the
>>> �geniuses� at the Apple Store in Broomfield, Colo., did something. They

>>> went above and beyond their call of duty and they refused to take the

>>> Marine�s money.
>>>
>>> I salute them. And I join them in thanking Ezeonu�s son for his service.
>>> But that�s not all. The young man was so impressed by the actions of the

>>> Apple employees that day that he decided to give the company his business
>>> again. He spent his hard-earned money on a new iPhone.
>>>

>>> �Because of the service and kindness of these Apple employees, they now
>>> have a life-long customer,� says Ezeonu.
>>>
>>> Apple is this week�s recipient of the Elliott Award for Excellent Customer
>>> Service. Here�s wishing Ezeonu�s son all the best in his deployment and
>>> speedy, safe return.
>>>
>>> If you�ve experienced excellent customer service recently, please let me
>>> know about it. We�re recognizing companies who go above and beyond the call

>>> of duty in a new weekly feature.
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, well the brave and patriotic jarhead would have been better served
>> with mil spec or hardened devices (like Panasonic ToughBook, for
>> example) instead of those bright and shiny Apple glitz boxes...
>
> Fuck your ass with a splintered broomstick dipped in Hci, mouthbreather.
>

So Georgie, the thought of thrusting phallic objects into mens rectums
gets you pretty hot, eh what?

And BTW, hydrogen chloride is HCl, not Hci. Bet if you hadn't cut so
many chemistry classes so you could lurk in the boy's locker room and
shower, you would have known that...

--
On the internet you can be anything you want. It�s strange that so many
people chose to be stupid.
--Judge Napolitano

[George Kerby]

On 4/2/13 6:00 AM, in article kjedj5$pr1$1...@dont-email.me, "News"

Rodman's job.

[George Kerby]

On 4/2/13 10:56 AM, in article kjev36$aoo$1...@news.albasani.net, "Jason

Bourne" <ja...@blackbriar.net> wrote:

> On 4/1/13 8:55 PM, George Kerby wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/1/13 5:23 PM, in article kjd1de$nss$1...@news.albasani.net, "Jason Bourne"
>> <ja...@blackbriar.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/1/13 5:27 PM, Michelle Steiner wrote:
>>>> This is not an April Fool.
>>>>
>>>> http://elliott.org/blog/i-was-so-touched-i-almost-cried/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> April 1, 2013
>>>>
>>>> GuoZhongHua / Shutterstock.com

>>>> LuAnn Ezeonu¹s son is a United States Marine deployed in Afghanistan. A

>>>> year ago, before he left the country, he bought a laptop computer and an
>>>> iPod from the Apple Store at the Flatiron Crossing Mall in Broomfield,
>>>> Colo.
>>>>
>>>> By the time he returned to the States, his electronics were in bad shape.

>>>> Which is where today¹s story of unbelievable customer service picks up:
>>>> with Ezeonu¹s son bringing the dented equipment back to Apple after his
>>>> deployment.
>>>>
>>>> ³He returned from his first deployment with a computer and iPod that were

>>>> dusty, sandy, beat up and the disk drive in the computer wasn¹t working,²

>>>> she remembers. ³We took it to this same Apple store.²
>>>>
>>>> Ezeonu¹s son asked the technicians to fix the hard drive, nothing more. But
>>>> they knew he was a Marine ‹ they remembered him from his first visit a year
>>>> ago when he bought both gadgets ‹ and in talking with him, they also

>>>> learned that he was about to return to Afghanistan.
>>>>

>>>> ³The techs at the store took the computer cleaned it, fixed the disk drive,
>>>> got him a new charging cord and then took the iPod and cleaned it up also,²
>>>> says Ezeonu.
>>>>
>>>> ³When we returned a couple hours later to pick up and pay, we were told
>>>> that it was the least they could do in return for his service,² she says.
>>>> ³I was so touched I almost cried.²

>>>>
>>>> When I heard her story, I almost did, too.
>>>>

>>>> Here¹s the thing: We talk a lot about how grateful we are to members of the
>>>> armed services for the sacrifice they¹ve made for our country, but so
>>>> often, it¹s just that ‹ talk.
>>>>
>>>> When it comes time to actually say ³thank you² in a meaningful way, the
>>>> ³geniuses² at the Apple Store in Broomfield, Colo., did something. They

>>>> went above and beyond their call of duty and they refused to take the

>>>> Marine¹s money.
>>>>
>>>> I salute them. And I join them in thanking Ezeonu¹s son for his service.
>>>> But that¹s not all. The young man was so impressed by the actions of the

>>>> Apple employees that day that he decided to give the company his business
>>>> again. He spent his hard-earned money on a new iPhone.
>>>>

>>>> ³Because of the service and kindness of these Apple employees, they now
>>>> have a life-long customer,² says Ezeonu.
>>>>
>>>> Apple is this week¹s recipient of the Elliott Award for Excellent Customer
>>>> Service. Here¹s wishing Ezeonu¹s son all the best in his deployment and
>>>> speedy, safe return.
>>>>
>>>> If you¹ve experienced excellent customer service recently, please let me
>>>> know about it. We¹re recognizing companies who go above and beyond the call

>>>> of duty in a new weekly feature.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, well the brave and patriotic jarhead would have been better served
>>> with mil spec or hardened devices (like Panasonic ToughBook, for
>>> example) instead of those bright and shiny Apple glitz boxes...
>>
>> Fuck your ass with a splintered broomstick dipped in Hci, mouthbreather.
>>
>
> So Georgie, the thought of thrusting phallic objects into mens rectums
> gets you pretty hot, eh what?

So, you are a man, eh?

Better check your chromosomes - not really too sure about that.

>
> And BTW, hydrogen chloride is HCl, not Hci.

Ewwww! A Punctuation Po-Po we have here!

Sorry, you cannot identify basic everyday chemical nomenclature, bitch.

Your loss...

[George Kerby]

On 4/1/13 10:55 PM, in article
michelle-C1D02F...@news.eternal-september.org, "Michelle
Steiner" <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <010420132239476059%st...@sky.net>, Davoud <st...@sky.net> wrote:
>
>> George Kerby:
>>>> I have NO idea why he is kissing ass of the ChiComs.
>>
>> Michelle Steiner:
>>> Because he wants to keep doing business there.
>>
>> Chicoms? Someone's got their head stuck in 1964.
>

> I wasn't going to get into that argument with him.

FYI:

<http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-02/mao-would-have-loved-apple-s-china
-apology.html?cmpid=yhoo>

[Jason Bourne]

I bet yo' mama would be just oh so proud of your posts. That is, if she
hadn't abandoned you in a gas station bathroom stall right after
squirting you out-- so she has no idea what you've turned into.

On second thought, maybe the big guys who regularly passed you around
during your years in the orphanage are smiling again.

--
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained 
by
stupidity!"
- Hanlon's Razor

[George Kerby]

On 4/2/13 3:02 PM, in article kjfdgr$d9d$1...@news.albasani.net, "Jason Bourne"

That's all you got?

Even for you, that is as limp as your aged 'special purpose'. Priam.

>
> On second thought,

Not possible. Not even an initial thought from that dihydrogen monoxide
afflicted cerebral cortex is capable of a rumination, outside of the
continued 'brain farts' that you exhibit in these groups.

Buh-bye, boo-boo boi! You have my expressed permission to try and counter
with your 'best'.

<snicker>

Over and out...

[JF Mezei]

On 13-04-04 16:21, Michelle Steiner wrote:

> You want to talk about killing innocent civilians, let's start with your
> buddies bin Ladin, Pol Pot, Josef Stalin, and Adolf Hitler.

You forgot to include your buddy George W Bush jr who killed more
americans than bin Ladin did, and killed over 100,000 innocent iraqis
just because Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz/Cheney wanted to teach the middle east a
lesson by invading Iraq.

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2013-04-04 2:21 PM Michelle Steiner wrote:
> You want to talk about killing innocent civilians, let's start with your
> buddies bin Ladin, Pol Pot, Josef Stalin, and Adolf Hitler.

Don't forget about the atomic bombs dropped on the civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Or the
fire-bombing of Dresden and Tokyo. Or the the napalming of villages in Cambodia while Nixon was
saying the USA was not and never would be involved in Cambodia.

--
_________________________________

Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese

[George Kerby]

On 4/4/13 4:43 PM, in article
515df418$0$7145$c3e8da3$b135...@news.astraweb.com, "JF Mezei"

And, again, you prove yourself to be a shitbomb waiting to explode.

Do us all a favor and keep on subjects of which you might know a miniscule
amount.

BTW: If you think Michelle is a 'buddy' of #43, you are dumber that I ever
would have thought...

[George Kerby]

On 4/4/13 5:50 PM, in article kjkvvl$452$1...@dont-email.me, "Larry Gusaas"

<larry....@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2013-04-04 2:21 PM Michelle Steiner wrote:
>> You want to talk about killing innocent civilians, let's start with your
>> buddies bin Ladin, Pol Pot, Josef Stalin, and Adolf Hitler.
>
> Don't forget about the atomic bombs dropped on the civilians of Hiroshima and
> Nagasaki. Or the
> fire-bombing of Dresden and Tokyo. Or the the napalming of villages in
> Cambodia while Nixon was
> saying the USA was not and never would be involved in Cambodia.

Fuck of and die, sock-troll.

[JF Mezei]

On 13-04-04 20:01, George Kerby wrote:

> Do us all a favor and keep on subjects of which you might know a miniscule
> amount.

Are you challenging the facts that more american servicemen were killed
in Bush's war in Iraq than were killed on 9-11 ?

Are you challenging the facts that over 100,000 iraqiis (some numbers go
as high as 125,000) were killed during that war ?


And with regards to Michelle and #43, I guess you don't know about
"irony". I know very well that she is not friends with that party.

[Larry Gusaas]

Gee! Someone is in denial about the number of innocent civilians the US has killed. Get back on
your meds sweetheart.

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2013-04-04 6:56 PM Michelle Steiner wrote:
> In article <kjl6g6$8pt$1...@dont-email.me>,

> Larry Gusaas <larry....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Gee! Someone is in denial about the number of innocent civilians the US has
>> killed.

> Seems that you don't have any problems with any other nations killing
> innocent civilians.

What makes you think that? I have problems with any killing. It is just that many Americans
ignore the actions of their own government. The biggest war crime of all time was the use of
nuclear bombs on two cities in Japan.

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2013-04-04 6:55 PM Michelle Steiner wrote:
> In article <kjkvvl$452$1...@dont-email.me>,

> Larry Gusaas <larry....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> You want to talk about killing innocent civilians, let's start with
>>> your buddies bin Ladin, Pol Pot, Josef Stalin, and Adolf Hitler.
>> Don't forget about the atomic bombs dropped on the civilians of
>> Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

> Killing fewer people than who would have died had we landed in Japan with
> ground troops.

So the end justifies the means? Bullshit. Besides, the Japanese were about ready to surrender
before the bombings.

Besides, the military had to test their new toy and send a message to Russia.

>> Or the fire-bombing of Dresden and Tokyo.

> Designed to take out industrial targets that were making war machines.

And killed hundreds of thousands of in Tokyo. Over half of Tokyo was destroyed and more
civilians killed than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.

In Dresdon fifteen square miles of the city centre were destroyed. Between 22,000 and 25,000
people were killed. Many of the targets weren't industrial.

>> Or the the napalming of villages in Cambodia while Nixon was saying the
>> USA was not and never would be involved in Cambodia.

> True, the US doesn't have a clean history, but we're a hell of a lot
> cleaner than many other countries. I'm curious why you aren't complaining
> about any nation other than the United States.

Just providing a counterpoint to your post. How about the military aid the US has provided to
Central and South American dictatorships to oppose people demanding their rights. Or providing
aid to overthrow a democratically elected government and install a brutal right-wing dictatorship?

[Savageduck]

On 2013-04-04 19:25:44 -0700, Larry Gusaas <larry....@gmail.com> said:

> On 2013-04-04 6:56 PM Michelle Steiner wrote:
>> In article <kjl6g6$8pt$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> Larry Gusaas <larry....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Gee! Someone is in denial about the number of innocent civilians the US has
>>> killed.
>> Seems that you don't have any problems with any other nations killing
>> innocent civilians.
>
> What makes you think that? I have problems with any killing. It is just
> that many Americans ignore the actions of their own government. The
> biggest war crime of all time was the use of nuclear bombs on two
> cities in Japan.

...and your solution to bring the war in the Pacific to an end would have been?

The bombs of August 1945, were weapons of unknown potential, and were
used as a means to bring the Japanese to the negotiating table. Would
you have preferred an invasion of Honshu where the estimated cost of
allied casualties (US, UK, Australian, NZ, Dutch, and who knows maybe a
Canadian or two for good luck) would have been between 500K and
1,000,000. Japanese military and civilian casualties at 2.5M+.

I have an intimate knowledge of this period of the war as my father was
part of the P-38 escort, from Honshu to Ie Shima, for the Japanese
negotiators on August, 19 1945.

I can't think of any individuals among the Allies facing Japan in
August 1945 who would have regretted any means of bringing the war to
an end. Other than the USSR, that is, as Stalin was doing all he could
to gain ground in Manchuria. Note Stalin only declared war against
Japan in May of 1945 after peace in Europe, and only started his
Manchurian campaign in July 1945.

So what would you have done, given your over-endowment of historic hindsight?

--
Regards,

Savageduck

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2013-04-04 9:20 PM Michelle Steiner wrote:
> In article <kjlcio$7gv$1...@dont-email.me>,

> Larry Gusaas <larry....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The biggest war crime of all time was the use of nuclear bombs on two
>> cities in Japan.

> How about 10,000,000 Jews, Romany, homosexuals, and assorted others
> murdered by the Nazis?

That was a despicable pogram of cultural genocide carried out by a fanatical government against
its citizens. It was not a war crime.

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2013-04-04 10:23 PM Michelle Steiner wrote:
> My how you twist and turn in order to support your anti-USA bigotry.

And some people won't take an objective look at their own country's history. All I've done is
posted factual information about the actions your country has taken. Many of your fellow
Americans acknowledge those facts. Take off the blinders.

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2013-04-05 12:05 AM Michelle Steiner wrote:
> Oh, I'm fully aware of the things the USA has done, and I'm far from proud
> of them; I don't need a bigoted git like you to tell me.

Just because I point out what the USA has done I'm bigoted? What bigoted statement have I made?
Perhaps I should tell you what I think about my country's treatment of it's aboriginal peoples,
although it is almost as bad as your country's treatment of its aboriginal people's.

[Michael Eyd]

Am 05.04.2013 02:55, schrieb Michelle Steiner:
> In article <kjkvvl$452$1...@dont-email.me>,

> Larry Gusaas <larry....@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Or the fire-bombing of Dresden and Tokyo.
>

> Designed to take out industrial targets that were making war machines.

Please read
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Arthur_Harris,_1st_Baronet#Second_World_War>
and then rethink your statement. These bombings (not only on Dresden,
but on many German cities) were _not_ aimed at military targets, but
their primary focus was on demoralizing German civilians and on binding
capacities for air defense, reconstruction, ...

There were other bombings aimed at military targets, yes, but the famous
air-raids had another agenda.

Best regards,

Michael

[Warren Oates]

In article <michelle-8F878A...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Michelle Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:

> You want to talk about killing innocent civilians, let's start with your
> buddies bin Ladin, Pol Pot, Josef Stalin, and Adolf Hitler.

Lyndon Johnson.
--
Where's the Vangelis music?
Pris' tongue is sticking out in in the wide shot after Batty has kissed her.
They have put back more tits into the Zhora dressing room scene.
-- notes for Blade Runner

[George Kerby]

On 4/4/13 7:41 PM, in article kjl6g6$8pt$1...@dont-email.me, "Larry Gusaas"

<larry....@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2013-04-04 6:03 PM George Kerby wrote:
>> On 4/4/13 5:50 PM, in article kjkvvl$452$1...@dont-email.me, "Larry Gusaas"
>> <larry....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2013-04-04 2:21 PM Michelle Steiner wrote:
>>>> You want to talk about killing innocent civilians, let's start with your
>>>> buddies bin Ladin, Pol Pot, Josef Stalin, and Adolf Hitler.
>>> Don't forget about the atomic bombs dropped on the civilians of Hiroshima
>>> and
>>> Nagasaki. Or the
>>> fire-bombing of Dresden and Tokyo. Or the the napalming of villages in
>>> Cambodia while Nixon was
>>> saying the USA was not and never would be involved in Cambodia.
>> Fuck of and die, sock-troll.
>
> Gee! Someone is in denial about the number of innocent civilians the US has
> killed. Get back on
> your meds sweetheart.
>

Look here asshole, you'd be speaking German if the US didn't cover your
country's ass.

Git over it.

[Opple Ipad]

Yea, Bush should have just waited. Saddam would have continued his
ethnic cleansing and done so much more.

[Savageduck]

Also note, "Bomber Harris" was in command of RAF Bomber Command, ni the USAAF.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

[Michael Eyd]

Sure, but AFAIK was he the one having the overall command for these
bombings. And the USAF was taking part in these bombings, so even in
case he was not formally in charge - the US commanders were supportive
of (t)his idea.

Anyway, please don't get me wrong, I'm very grateful for the allies
ending the Nazi terror regime in Germany. Nevertheless, I don't buy 'the
end justifies the means' under all circumstances...

Best regards,

Michael

[AV3]

On Apr/5/2013 12:0125 AM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> On 2013-04-04 9:20 PM Michelle Steiner wrote:
>> In article <kjlcio$7gv$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> Larry Gusaas <larry....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The biggest war crime of all time was the use of nuclear bombs on two
>>> cities in Japan.
>> How about 10,000,000 Jews, Romany, homosexuals, and assorted others
>> murdered by the Nazis?
>
> That was a despicable pogram of cultural genocide carried out by a
> fanatical government against its citizens. It was not a war crime.
>
>

Bullshit, you Nazi apologist, it was a war crime against civilian
citizens of countries attacked by Germany for conquest and exploitation,
which in itself was a larger war crime. The internal genocide was
carried out against persons denied all rights of citizenship.


--
++====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====+====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====++
||Arnold VICTOR, New York City, i. e., <arvi...@Wearthlink.net> ||
||Arnoldo VIKTORO, Nov-jorkurbo, t. e., <arvi...@Wearthlink.net> ||
||Remove capital letters from e-mail address for correct address/ ||
|| Forigu majusklajn literojn el e-poŝta adreso por ĝusta adreso ||
++====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====+====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====++

[AV3]

On Apr/4/2013 10:4415 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
>
>
> On 2013-04-04 6:55 PM Michelle Steiner wrote:
>> In article <kjkvvl$452$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> Larry Gusaas <larry....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> You want to talk about killing innocent civilians, let's start with
>>>> your buddies bin Ladin, Pol Pot, Josef Stalin, and Adolf Hitler.
>>> Don't forget about the atomic bombs dropped on the civilians of
>>> Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
>> Killing fewer people than who would have died had we landed in Japan with
>> ground troops.
>
> So the end justifies the means? Bullshit. Besides, the Japanese were
> about ready to surrender before the bombings.
>

Bullshit. Japanese military fanatics murdered Japanese civilians on Iwo
Jima and Okinawa to prevent them from surrendering. Even after the
atomic bombing the military command was evenly split between advocates
of surrender and those favoring war until the very last Japanese died
resisting occupation. They finally asked the Emperor to cast the
deciding vote.


A group of fanatics still tried to stage a coup to prevent the Emperor's
surrender message being broadcast on radio, but the palace outsmarted
them by smuggling the Emperor's recording to the studio early. The
message was already broadcast before the coup could start.


Both Japanese and German treatment of occupied civilians deprived their
home populations of the right to invoke the Marquess of Queensbury rules
on their own behalf.


> ...

[Paul Sture]

In article <michelle-D29BFC...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Michelle Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <kjkvvl$452$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Larry Gusaas <larry....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > You want to talk about killing innocent civilians, let's start with
> > > your buddies bin Ladin, Pol Pot, Josef Stalin, and Adolf Hitler.
> >
> > Don't forget about the atomic bombs dropped on the civilians of
> > Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
>
> Killing fewer people than who would have died had we landed in Japan with
> ground troops.
>

> > Or the fire-bombing of Dresden and Tokyo.
>
> Designed to take out industrial targets that were making war machines.

Disputed for Dresden.

"I survived the bombing of Dresden and continue to believe it was a war
crime"

<http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/15/bombing-dresden-war-
crime>

--
Paul Sture

[Savageduck]

Well, for folks who were trying to live under falling bombs during
WWII, be they in Dresden, Hamburg, Cologne, Berlin, Rotterdam, Antwerp,
London, Coventry, or Tokio, they would surely have believed they were
the target of a war crime.

The big difference with Dresden, which was just another German city on
Bomber Command's target list, was the myth that all that was produced
in Dresden was ceramic decorative ornaments and dolls. Germany was a
nation swallowed by total war and everything was dedicated to their war
effort.

There was no lack of German war industries and strategic targets in
Dresden. For starters there was the Sachsenwerke factory production
line for radar instruments destined for air defenses and night
fighters. Ceramics and radar were WWII twins. Then there was the
"bombproof" Zeiss-Ikon Goehle-Werk factory staffed with forced labor to
produce military grade optics for bomb sights, artillery sights and
U-Boat periscopes.
Dresden was also a dormitory town for workers at the Gusstahl or
casting plant at Freital a town of the Dresden district, and a coal
mining and steel production center.
Also, due to the rail yards Dresden was a major transportation center.
In those final months of the war it had become a focal point for
refugees fleeing from the East and German military retreating from the
East ahead of the Russians. One of the big reasons for the bombing of
Dresden was a request from the Russians for support in disrupting the
German retreat.
All of that said, what happened to the civilian and refugee population
of Dresden was horrific. Goebbels made, meaty propaganda of the
bombing, overstating casualty figures. Realistic figures only came out
some years after the war, and even those are in doubt as there were
never any clear numbers for refugees in the area. They are imprecisely
placed at between 25-40K. Surprisingly the German military casualties
were low as they were never stalled in Dresden, but moved through to
Berlin to die there.

The one clear result of the Dresden bombing was Churchill's direct
order to Harris to stop blanket bombing of known civilian targets.

If you are interested, read "Dresden: Tuesday, February 13, 1945" by
Frederick Taylor.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

[Savageduck]

On 2013-04-05 09:46:26 -0700, Michelle Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> said:

> In article <38ltl89p1d6gterr2...@4ax.com>,

> Opple Ipad <Op...@Opple.com> wrote:
>
>> Yea, Bush should have just waited. Saddam would have continued his
>> ethnic cleansing and done so much more.
>

> The US had no legitimate reason to invade Iraq; all the "evidence"
> presented to support the invasion was fabricated or the result of faulty
> and easily disproven intelligence reports.

Agreed, and the ones who were truly to blame were the "Neocons" with
Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rove, & Kristol leading the way.
George "What do I do Dick?" Bush was led to war in a daze.
The patsy and fall guy was Colin Powell with that stage managed UN
address. He was as betrayed as the American people.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2013-04-05 11:02 AM Michelle Steiner wrote:
> Because you point it out only about the USA, and because you accused that
> Marine of murder without knowing anything about him or what he actually did
> in Afghanistan. That's what makes you a bigot.

I did not accuse that marine of murder. That was someone else. Get your facts straight before
making false accusations.

[Jolly Roger]

In article <2013040510293582188-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,

I recall these assholes gravely explaining to the American citizens that
the Iraq war would "pay for itself" as well. Far from it.

--
Send responses to the relevant news group rather than email to me.
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my very hungry SPAM
filter. Due to Google's refusal to prevent spammers from posting
messages through their servers, I often ignore posts from Google
Groups. Use a real news client if you want me to see your posts.

JR

[houn...@yahoo.co.uk]

The Soviet Union also invaded the southern half of Sakhalin, which the
Japanese call/called Karafuto and the Kurile Islands after Japan
announced its surrender, right?

[twk]

In article <kjjts0$9df$1...@news.albasani.net>,
MacPaul <mac...@forget.it> wrote:

> On 2013-04-01 21:27:37 +0000, Michelle Steiner said:
> >
> > LuAnn Ezeonu’s son is a United States Marine deployed in Afghanistan.
> >
> > Here’s the thing: We talk a lot about how grateful we are to members of the
> > armed services for the sacrifice they’ve made for our country, but so
> > often, it’s just that — talk.
>
> What did he do in Afghanistan? Killing innocent civilian I guess, like
> all US troops did in the last 50 years. What a fucking US hypocrisy
> story...

Wow, this discussion really deteriorated fast.
Proud of yourself MacPaul?
Did you get what you wanted?
Do you think most people here think you're a jerk? I hope so.
I'm guessing you're not american.

--
For all you know this message was...
Sent via an exclusive network, on a snobby portable computing device.

[JF Mezei]

On 13-04-05 13:29, Savageduck wrote:

> The patsy and fall guy was Colin Powell with that stage managed UN
> address. He was as betrayed as the American people.

Colin Powell would have done the USA and the world a HUGE favour if, he
ended his UN presentation with "as I personally do not believe this
evidence justifies an invasion, I am resigning my post effective
immediatly".

Despite remaining loyal to his boss, Powel was still sidelined and
pushed away by Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz who had never intended to work
with him. So in the end, he gained nothing by remaining loyal.

Condi Rice however did switch sides succesfully and started to promote
the war with fear mongering such as "mushroom clouds" etc. She was
initially on Powell's side.

[Savageduck]

On 2013-04-05 11:44:19 -0700, "houn...@yahoo.co.uk"

Actually there wasn't much of a campaign for Sakhalin or the Kuril
islands, more skirmish than full on battle. Basically the Russians
landed and occupied the territory on August 11, 1945 which was after
the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombs were dropped and five days before
surrender was agreed upon. The final surrender negotiations were
completed August 19/20, 1945. The Japanese-Russian skirmishing
continued until August 21, 1945 with full capitulation on August 25.
Japan renounced claim to the islands in 1951.

The VJ Day surrender documents were signed on the USS Missouri in Tokyo
Bay on September 1, 1945.

>>
>> So what would you have done, given your over-endowment of historic
>> hindsight?

--
Regards,

Savageduck

[Savageduck]

On 2013-04-05 07:14:04 -0700, Michael Eyd <inv...@eyd.de> said:

> Am 05.04.2013 15:54, schrieb Savageduck:
>> On 2013-04-05 00:47:47 -0700, Michael Eyd <inv...@eyd.de> said:
>>
>>> Am 05.04.2013 02:55, schrieb Michelle Steiner:
>>>> In article <kjkvvl$452$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>>> Larry Gusaas <larry....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Or the fire-bombing of Dresden and Tokyo.
>>>>
>>>> Designed to take out industrial targets that were making war machines.
>>>
>>> Please read
>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Arthur_Harris,_1st_Baronet#Second_World_War>
>>> and then rethink your statement. These bombings (not only on Dresden,
>>> but on many German cities) were _not_ aimed at military targets, but
>>> their primary focus was on demoralizing German civilians and on
>>> binding capacities for air defense, reconstruction, ...
>>>
>>> There were other bombings aimed at military targets, yes, but the
>>> famous air-raids had another agenda.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Michael
>>
>> Also note, "Bomber Harris" was in command of RAF Bomber Command, ni the
>> USAAF.
>
> Sure, but AFAIK was he the one having the overall command for these
> bombings. And the USAF was taking part in these bombings, so even in
> case he was not formally in charge - the US commanders were supportive
> of (t)his idea.

Harris was in charge of Bomber Command from 1943 until the end of the
War. He was tasked with developing the tactics of night time area
bombing as a means of bringing the War to the German population. He was
responsible to Churchill, with assistance from the British Chief of Air
Staff, Charles Portal.
His command was mirrored by the USAAF Generals, Carl Spaatz, Jimmy
Doolittle, and Hap Arnold.

Hap Arnold moved on to the Pacific and changed the bombing tactics
there from high altitude to low altitude incendiary carpet bombing.

> Anyway, please don't get me wrong, I'm very grateful for the allies
> ending the Nazi terror regime in Germany. Nevertheless, I don't buy
> 'the end justifies the means' under all circumstances...
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michael

--
Regards,

Savageduck

[AV3]

No, he just shot himself in the foot. He hoped loyalty to those in
power, however dishonest, would earn himself a legitimate shot at the
Republican presidential nomination. But they just used him cynically and
he ended up looking the fool for all his pandering. They were even more
contemptible than he, but I feel no sympathy for him, either.

[Ed H.]

In article <2013040514260799505-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,

Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

I thought it was Curtis LeMay who was responsible for implementing that
tactic.

> > Anyway, please don't get me wrong, I'm very grateful for the allies
> > ending the Nazi terror regime in Germany. Nevertheless, I don't buy
> > 'the end justifies the means' under all circumstances...
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Michael

--

Ed H.

[Savageduck]

LeMay had come from Europe to replace Kenneth Wolfe in India. Wolfe
went on to China to command the 20th AF B-29s in July 1944. A Month
later LeMay replaced Wolfe in China.

Arnold, who had command of the entire operation wasn't getting the
results he wanted from the B-29 campaign. So, in January 1945, in the
Marianas, he replaced General Hansell, who had resisted the low
altitude bombing plan, with LeMay, who was appointed commander of XXI
Bomber Command. LeMay went on to execute Arnold's plan.

LeMay got the job done, but he was Arnold's boy.

>>> Anyway, please don't get me wrong, I'm very grateful for the allies
>>> ending the Nazi terror regime in Germany. Nevertheless, I don't buy
>>> 'the end justifies the means' under all circumstances...
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Michael


--

Regards,

Savageduck

[Savageduck]

BTW: July 16, 1945, after a heart attack, Arnold relinquished full
command to LeMay, but by that time the Pacific bombing campaign had
about three weeks to run.

[Opple Ipad]

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 09:46:26 -0700, Michelle Steiner
<mich...@michelle.org> wrote:

>In article <38ltl89p1d6gterr2...@4ax.com>,
> Opple Ipad <Op...@Opple.com> wrote:
>

>> Yea, Bush should have just waited. Saddam would have continued his
>> ethnic cleansing and done so much more.
>

>The US had no legitimate reason to invade Iraq; all the "evidence"
>presented to support the invasion was fabricated or the result of faulty
>and easily disproven intelligence reports.

Yea, everyone turns a blind eye to genocide.

But then that was never one of the excuses for the invasion.

Silly minorities, why do they think they should live, when it's
obvious so many don't care.

[houn...@yahoo.co.uk]

Japan renounced any claims to Sakhalin and the majority of the Kuriles
under the terms of the San Francisco Treaty of 1951, though it still
claims four of the southern islands in the Kuriles archipleago as theirs
-- Kunashir, Iturup, Shikotan and the Habomai Rocks.

[John Varela]

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 07:06:17 UTC, Larry Gusaas
<larry....@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2013-04-05 12:05 AM Michelle Steiner wrote:
> > Oh, I'm fully aware of the things the USA has done, and I'm far from proud
> > of them; I don't need a bigoted git like you to tell me.
>
> Just because I point out what the USA has done I'm bigoted? What bigoted statement have I made?
> Perhaps I should tell you what I think about my country's treatment of it's aboriginal peoples,
> although it is almost as bad as your country's treatment of its aboriginal people's.

Tell that to the Tasmanians.

--
John Varela

[Earl Grey]

On 4/5/13 3:41 PM, JF Mezei wrote:
> On 13-04-05 13:29, Savageduck wrote:
>
>> The patsy and fall guy was Colin Powell with that stage managed UN
>> address. He was as betrayed as the American people.
>
>
> Colin Powell would have done the USA and the world a HUGE favour if, he
> ended his UN presentation with "as I personally do not believe this
> evidence justifies an invasion, I am resigning my post effective
> immediatly".
>
>

Do you not remember that back then EVERYONE believed sadam had WMD and
was ready to use them.

Everyone-- politicians, media, man in the street, TV comedians, the UPS
guy, the pizza delivery guy, burger flippers, doctors, lawyers, Indian
chiefs...even the lib/dem establishment!

We all believed it.... so climb down off your holier-than-thou pedestal
and quit looking down your long pointy nose at the rest of us.


---
"We have a spending problem, not a failure to raise taxes problem."
--Grover Norquist `

[Matthew Russotto]

In article <michelle-FC9A7C...@news.eternal-september.org>,
Michelle Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:
>In article <2013040510293582188-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,

> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>

>> > The US had no legitimate reason to invade Iraq; all the "evidence"
>> > presented to support the invasion was fabricated or the result of
>> > faulty and easily disproven intelligence reports.
>>
>> Agreed, and the ones who were truly to blame were the "Neocons" with
>> Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rove, & Kristol leading the way. George
>> "What do I do Dick?" Bush was led to war in a daze.
>

>Bush had his own reasons; Saddam had insulted his daddy.
Took a shot at him, actually.
--
The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

[Alan Browne]

What meds were you taking at the time? Everyone was incredulous at the
scant, thin "proof" that the WH put around at the time.

Yes, there were suspicions, and rightly so.

But there was no proof at all.

Powell fucked up (too bad, he was a very good man, IMO).

Bush & Co. LLC treated him like dirt. He got his revenge however.


--
"There were, unfortunately, no great principles on which parties
were divided – politics became a mere struggle for office."
-Sir John A. Macdonald

[Savageduck]

On 2013-04-07 15:05:03 -0700, Earl Grey <du...@t.net> said:

> On 4/5/13 3:41 PM, JF Mezei wrote:
>> On 13-04-05 13:29, Savageduck wrote:
>>
>>> The patsy and fall guy was Colin Powell with that stage managed UN
>>> address. He was as betrayed as the American people.
>>
>>
>> Colin Powell would have done the USA and the world a HUGE favour if, he
>> ended his UN presentation with "as I personally do not believe this
>> evidence justifies an invasion, I am resigning my post effective
>> immediatly".
>>
>>
>
> Do you not remember that back then EVERYONE believed sadam had WMD and
> was ready to use them.

Not "EVERYONE", read below.

> Everyone-- politicians, media, man in the street, TV comedians, the UPS
> guy, the pizza delivery guy, burger flippers, doctors, lawyers, Indian
> chiefs...even the lib/dem establishment!

Not "EVERYONE", read below.

> We all believed it.... so climb down off your holier-than-thou pedestal
> and quit looking down your long pointy nose at the rest of us.

Please don't include me in your "we".

> ---
> "We have a spending problem, not a failure to raise taxes problem."
> --Grover Norquist `

Aah! I think I see your problem.
Anyway, read on.

Actually, not everybody believed the neocon ploy, or bought the
Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz/Rove/Kristol lies. PNAC indeed!

There were from UNSCOM, Hans Blix, Scott Ritter, and a few other inspectors.

Not even the CIA or National Security could confirm or later find WMD.
Rove and his cronies outed covert CIA agent, Valerie Plame, because her
report undermined the Bush Administration's plans for Iraq. This was a
criminal act and more individuals other than the patsy Lewis "Scooter"
Libby" should have gone to prison.

Powell was compelled to follow the Administration cue cards and tell
the lie, which finished any further political prospects he might have
had. Certainly his was not a "Profile in Courage" on the day of his UN
address. Even he didn't look like he believed what he was saying.

Then most importantly there was the only member of either house of
Congress to vote against the authorizing of force in the misguided Iraq
affair, Barbara Lee. She exemplified a "Profile in Courage" when all
others did all they could to squirm and fawn to protect their Senate
and House seats, giving the Bush administration a free ride to an
unjustified war.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

[JF Mezei]

>> Do you not remember that back then EVERYONE believed sadam had WMD and
>> was ready to use them.

This was only in the USA because all media outlets (and to a lesser
extent PBS) agreed to support te war. Outside the USA, the farcical
evidence presented by USA was torn to shreds and people did not believe it.

Massive demonstrations in the UK against Bob Bliar. In Canada, the PM
said thare was no evidence of WMDs and thus no reason to invade.

[George Kerby]

On 4/7/13 5:05 PM, in article kjsqic$ute$1...@news.albasani.net, "Earl Grey"

Mezel is a special kind of libtard. You have to forgive the selective memory
problem that simply cannot reach back over a decade or so.

Sorta like the prole population that Orwell told us about in that book -
what waz dat?

[George Kerby]

On 4/7/13 5:27 PM, in article BKGdnbp4K-8nb_zM...@giganews.com,

"Alan Browne" <alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> On 2013.04.07 18:05 , Earl Grey wrote:
>> On 4/5/13 3:41 PM, JF Mezei wrote:
>>> On 13-04-05 13:29, Savageduck wrote:
>>>
>>>> The patsy and fall guy was Colin Powell with that stage managed UN
>>>> address. He was as betrayed as the American people.
>>>
>>>
>>> Colin Powell would have done the USA and the world a HUGE favour if, he
>>> ended his UN presentation with "as I personally do not believe this
>>> evidence justifies an invasion, I am resigning my post effective
>>> immediatly".
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Do you not remember that back then EVERYONE believed sadam had WMD and
>> was ready to use them.
>>
>> Everyone-- politicians, media, man in the street, TV comedians, the UPS
>> guy, the pizza delivery guy, burger flippers, doctors, lawyers, Indian
>> chiefs...even the lib/dem establishment!
>>
>> We all believed it.... so climb down off your holier-than-thou pedestal
>> and quit looking down your long pointy nose at the rest of us.
>
>
> What meds were you taking at the time?

Get thee to a Nunnery, Brownie. You're frothing again...

[Savageduck]

Sorry George, this is the narrow focus of the World one gets when news
and information is received through a narrow tube. Especially when that
tube is controlled by Murdoch and Ayles.

As you know, I am one of that strange breed which tries to look at both
sides of the story, and I study the history of much of what has led our
nation through the past 250+ years, and I get my information from
multiple sources. The Bush Administration and its role in the game of
deception played with WMD in Iraq is a less than honorable one.
Especially the parts played by Cheney, Rove, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld.

...and I will be keeping my guns.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

[Ed H.]

In article <kjsqic$ute$1...@news.albasani.net>, Earl Grey <du...@t.net>
wrote:

I certainly didn't believe it. Maybe all the people in your circle or
sources believed it but that's a different story.

--
Ed H.

[David Fritzinger]

In article <kjsqic$ute$1...@news.albasani.net>, Earl Grey <du...@t.net>
wrote:

You misremember history. I certainly didn't believe Iraq had WMD. The UN
inspectors didn't believe Iraq had WMD. Most Europeans didn't believe
Iraq had WMD. Many Americans didn't believe Iraq had WMD.

[Paul Sture]

In article <kjsqic$ute$1...@news.albasani.net>, Earl Grey <du...@t.net>
wrote:

Not all of us believed it. On the contrary those of us who had followed
it from the very start were highly sceptical of the WMD claims.

--
Paul Sture

[Paul Sture]

In article <5161fe0d$0$28737$c3e8da3$f017...@news.astraweb.com>,

That's *Tony* Bliar (aka Bloody Liar), which is a wordplay on his real
name Blair.

Coincidentally George Orwell's real name was Eric Blair. One Blair wrote
1984, another Blair did his best to implement it. TB was and still is
hated by many Brits, both on the domestic front and the Iraq war.

--
Paul Sture

[Paul Sture]

In article <kjlvj4$bmu$1...@news.sap-ag.de>, Michael Eyd <inv...@eyd.de>
wrote:

> Am 05.04.2013 02:55, schrieb Michelle Steiner:

> > In article <kjkvvl$452$1...@dont-email.me>,

> > Larry Gusaas <larry....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Or the fire-bombing of Dresden and Tokyo.
> >
> > Designed to take out industrial targets that were making war machines.
>
> Please read
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Arthur_Harris,_1st_Baronet#Second_World_War>
>
> and then rethink your statement. These bombings (not only on Dresden,
> but on many German cities) were _not_ aimed at military targets, but
> their primary focus was on demoralizing German civilians and on binding
> capacities for air defense, reconstruction, ...
>
> There were other bombings aimed at military targets, yes, but the famous
> air-raids had another agenda.

Thanks for the link. It was informative.

--
Paul Sture

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 20:55:58 -0400, Michelle Steiner wrote
(in article <michelle-D29BFC...@news.eternal-september.org>):

> In article <kjkvvl$452$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Larry Gusaas <larry....@gmail.com> wrote:
>

>>> You want to talk about killing innocent civilians, let's start with
>>> your buddies bin Ladin, Pol Pot, Josef Stalin, and Adolf Hitler.
>>
>> Don't forget about the atomic bombs dropped on the civilians of
>> Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
>
> Killing fewer people than who would have died had we landed in Japan with
> ground troops.

Quite possibly. Most probably, in fact.

>
>> Or the fire-bombing of Dresden and Tokyo.
>
> Designed to take out industrial targets that were making war machines.

No. Night area fire raids, such as Hamburg and Dresden and Tokyo, were aimed
at causing mass destruction and killing as many as possible. The Great Fire
Raid on Tokyo, on the night of March 9/10 1945, killed more and did more
damage than did the two nuclear attacks, combined. The fire raids on Hamburg
and Tokyo created fire tempests, firestorms so hot and so powerful that they
generated inbound winds in excess of 150 knots. The tail ends of the bomber
streams found it quite easy to approach the target, aided by the wind, and
very difficult to leave, thanks to that same wind. After Hamburg cooled down
and rescue parties were able to enter the firestorm zone, they found air raid
shelters containing blobs where all the inhabitants had melted together into
a single mass. In Tokyo the center of the firestorm zone was 21.5 square
miles of nothing but ash. Concrete burned. Bricks burned. Steel burned. There
was nothing left.

>
>> Or the the napalming of villages in Cambodia while Nixon was saying the
>> USA was not and never would be involved in Cambodia.
>
> True, the US doesn't have a clean history, but we're a hell of a lot
> cleaner than many other countries. I'm curious why you aren't complaining
> about any nation other than the United States.

Given German activities in Rotterdam, Warsaw, etc and Japanese actions in
Nanking etc, they should not complain. They do anyway.



--
email to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 22:44:15 -0400, Larry Gusaas wrote
(in article <kjldle$c8b$1...@dont-email.me>):

>> Killing fewer people than who would have died had we landed in Japan with
>> ground troops.
>

> So the end justifies the means? Bullshit. Besides, the Japanese were about
> ready to surrender before the bombings.

No they weren't. They were being starved out by the USN's submarines sinking
anything that moved at sea, down to fishing sampans in the Inland Sea. They
were being burned out by the USAAF; Hiroshima and Nagasaki were selected for
nuking in large part because there simply weren't that many cities which
hadn't already got the Curtis LeMay Urban Renewal Treatment. However, when
the word got out that the Emperor was considering surrendering, a substantial
number of Army officers attempted a revolt.

They were very, very, VERY serious about fighting to the last bullet, and
then to the last man.

Remember always the 'plan', such as it was, for Operation Ten-Go: ten
Japanese warships, the last fully operational surface fleet available,
including the mighty YAMATO, sailed to relieve Okinawa. They did not have
sufficient fuel to get to Okinawa and return to Japan, so the orders were to
proceed to Okinawa, fight until fuel was almost exhausted, then run the ships
aground and continue to fight until main gun ammunition was exhausted,
whereupon the crews were to collect rifles, abandon ship, and assist the Army
in defending the sacred soil of the motherland to the last.

Against the ten warships, none of them carriers (not that it mattered, there
were no more carrier-trained aircrews left to Japan) stood the entire US
Pacific Fleet, reinforced by the British Pacific Fleet (one of my uncles was
a torpedoman on a BPF destroyer; he complained that the 'bloody Yanks had
hunted out the Japs' by the time he got there, and there was nothing left to
torpedo). The USN sent 500-plus aircraft against Ten-Go's ships, killing
YAMATO, a cruiser, and four destroyers. The surviving ships turned around and
went home. The USN lost 10 aircraft.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 13:23:52 -0400, Savageduck wrote
(in article <2013040510235294298-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>):

> On 2013-04-05 09:12:39 -0700, Paul Sture <nos...@sture.ch> said:
>
>> In article <michelle-D29BFC...@news.eternal-september.org>,

>> Michelle Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <kjkvvl$452$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>> Larry Gusaas <larry....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> You want to talk about killing innocent civilians, let's start with
>>>>> your buddies bin Ladin, Pol Pot, Josef Stalin, and Adolf Hitler.
>>>>
>>>> Don't forget about the atomic bombs dropped on the civilians of
>>>> Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
>>>

>>> Killing fewer people than who would have died had we landed in Japan with
>>> ground troops.
>>>

>>>> Or the fire-bombing of Dresden and Tokyo.
>>>
>>> Designed to take out industrial targets that were making war machines.
>>

>> Disputed for Dresden.
>>
>> "I survived the bombing of Dresden and continue to believe it was a war
>> crime"
>>
>> <http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/15/bombing-dresden-war-
>> crime>
>
> Well, for folks who were trying to live under falling bombs during
> WWII, be they in Dresden, Hamburg, Cologne, Berlin, Rotterdam, Antwerp,
> London, Coventry, or Tokio, they would surely have believed they were
> the target of a war crime.
>
> The big difference with Dresden, which was just another German city on
> Bomber Command's target list, was the myth that all that was produced
> in Dresden was ceramic decorative ornaments and dolls. Germany was a
> nation swallowed by total war and everything was dedicated to their war
> effort.
>
> There was no lack of German war industries and strategic targets in
> Dresden. For starters there was the Sachsenwerke factory production
> line for radar instruments destined for air defenses and night
> fighters. Ceramics and radar were WWII twins. Then there was the
> "bombproof" Zeiss-Ikon Goehle-Werk factory staffed with forced labor to
> produce military grade optics for bomb sights, artillery sights and
> U-Boat periscopes.
> Dresden was also a dormitory town for workers at the Gusstahl or
> casting plant at Freital a town of the Dresden district, and a coal
> mining and steel production center.
> Also, due to the rail yards Dresden was a major transportation center.
> In those final months of the war it had become a focal point for
> refugees fleeing from the East and German military retreating from the
> East ahead of the Russians. One of the big reasons for the bombing of
> Dresden was a request from the Russians for support in disrupting the
> German retreat.
> All of that said, what happened to the civilian and refugee population
> of Dresden was horrific. Goebbels made, meaty propaganda of the
> bombing, overstating casualty figures. Realistic figures only came out
> some years after the war, and even those are in doubt as there were
> never any clear numbers for refugees in the area. They are imprecisely
> placed at between 25-40K. Surprisingly the German military casualties
> were low as they were never stalled in Dresden, but moved through to
> Berlin to die there.
>
> The one clear result of the Dresden bombing was Churchill's direct
> order to Harris to stop blanket bombing of known civilian targets.
>
> If you are interested, read "Dresden: Tuesday, February 13, 1945" by
> Frederick Taylor.
>
>

Feh. Dresden doesn't even make the top 10 most destructive air raids in
_Europe_, much less in the war as a whole.

[JF Mezei]

On 13-04-08 08:11, Lewis wrote:

> I did for a few days after Powell's testimony to the UN, but then the
> full extent of the lies the administration had concocted came to light.

The night of his presentation France TV news did an analysis on it, and
they had a French Intelligence specialist on. He tore the evidence to
shreds.

Rememebr, this was the USA trying to convince the workd it had credible
evidence.

The intelligence guy saids the photos were worthless since they had no
date, and whenever one intelligence agency exchanges such photographs,
the data/time and lat/long are always provided. (and between very
friendly countries, also the position of satellite (to calculate/verify
angles on image).

After Powell made his presentation, the UN asked for the evidence so it
could send its inspectors who were on-site to verify. The USA initailly
refused but eventually did give it: UN found nothing. But because of the
delay, the USA then argued that the UN took so long that Saddam had time
to destroy/move the evidence. How convenient.

[JF Mezei]

On 13-04-08 08:17, Lewis wrote:

> From afar, Tony Blair seemed like a great guy at first, but then his
> worshipful obsequiousness for George W exposed him as a man of low
> morals, no character, and a complete inability to think for himself.
> Really, his utter subjugation to the US and to Dubya in particular was
> sickening.


John Howard of Australia was in the same league, wanting so much to be
Bush Jr's puppy. They begged to be allowed to participate in Iraq hoping
they'd get something in return but didn't even get much public recognition.

[George Kerby]

On 4/7/13 8:17 PM, in article
2013040718170930337-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, "Savageduck"

I guess a lot of Democrats watched that "tube" as well...

<http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm>

[George Kerby]

On 4/7/13 10:44 PM, in article
michelle-D1FB2C...@news.eternal-september.org, "Michelle

Steiner" <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <kjsqic$ute$1...@news.albasani.net>, Earl Grey <du...@t.net> wrote:
>

>> Do you not remember that back then EVERYONE believed sadam had WMD and
>> was ready to use them.
>

> No. I didn't believe it, nor did all but a handful of my friends and
> acquaintances, both those I knew in person and those I knew through the
> internet.

See my answer to the Duck.

My, how the Reality Distortion Field has worked so well...

[George Kerby]

On 4/8/13 5:20 AM, in article
dfritzin-D6BA99...@news.eternal-september.org, "David

And yet...

<http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm>

And even his own...

<http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/kouri/060314>

AND I guess there were just those under Vulcan Mind Control...

<http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brunitedstatescanadara/238.
php>

Yeppers, Orwell was spot on...

[George Kerby]

On 4/8/13 5:38 AM, in article nospam-642685....@news.chingola.ch,

'Splain this in Newspeak, then...

<http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brunitedstatescanadara/238.
php>