Annul Steve Jobs and I will pay you $5000 right away
ac_t...@hotmail.com
at my website. It is not for nothing that www.religiousfreedomwatch.org
is constantly and daily voted one of the top ethical and useful sites
on the world wide web.
But recently a bunch of unhappy guys running back and forth in Asia
have decided that the site should be no more. Somehow they are using
the Apple iNet tool to do this.
My site can give you the details but I am afraid I need the help right
now. This website is my legacy to the world. I don't want Jobs and
his guys to be able to wreck it before they know what it is all
about. And I mean ALL ABOUT not just a few broken pieces here and
there.
My own thoughts are that a complete rethink of the ASP protocol will
block these guys out but I don't have anything close to the skill
level to undertake it without quite literally taking a several year
timeout to read up and work it through.
So even though I am quite literally operating out of a shoebox I have
scrapped together the funds making up the proposed $5000 reward.
All I can add at this point is may the best man put his foot forward
and please just make sure to come back to me on
rewar...@earthlink.net as this account is all but eaten by images of
Jobs that are sent to me almost by the minute each passing day.
Someone said that if I rehosted to Linux the problem could go away,
does anyone out there concur with that as an option?
Thanks again.
Mike Rosenberg
> So even though I am quite literally operating out of a shoebox
I strongly doubt that you have _literally_ been operating out of a
shoebox, or are you literally that small?
--
<http://designsbymike.biz/macconsultshop.shtml> Mac-themed T-shirts
<http://designsbymike.biz/musings.shtml> Humorous/muckraking T-shirts
<http://designsbymike.biz/prius.shtml> Prius shirts & bumper stickers
<http://cafepress.com/comedancing> Ballroom dance-themed shirts & gift
Richard Maine
> ...I am quite literally operating out of a shoebox...
Hmm. Do you happen to know what the word "literally" means? Or is this
the kind of doublespeak where "literally" means "figuratively"? :-)
(The rest of the post didn't seem worth replying to, but this caught my
eye.)
--
Richard Maine | Good judgement comes from experience;
email: last name at domain . net | experience comes from bad judgement.
domain: summertriangle | -- Mark Twain
Wes Groleau
I have no clue what on earth you are talking about.
The site appears normal to me.
But here's a clue for you: "Christianity Today" is a magazine.
It is NOT the "official site" of the Christian religion.
Christianity (and Judaism and .....) has many variants.
Some of those variants have web sites. But a single
"official site" for Christianity (or Judasm or ....)
does not exist.
--
Wes Groleau
Expert, n.:
Someone who comes from out of town and shows slides.
Tim McNamara
Wes Groleau <grolea...@freeshell.org> wrote:
> ac_t...@hotmail.com
>
> I have no clue what on earth you are talking about. The site appears
> normal to me.
>
> But here's a clue for you: "Christianity Today" is a magazine. It is
> NOT the "official site" of the Christian religion. Christianity (and
> Judaism and .....) has many variants. Some of those variants have web
> sites. But a single "official site" for Christianity (or Judasm or
> ....) does not exist.
Some would beg to differ with you:
;-)
Jon
> ac_t...@hotmail.com
>
> I have no clue what on earth you are talking about.
> The site appears normal to me.
>
> But here's a clue for you: "Christianity Today" is a magazine.
> It is NOT the "official site" of the Christian religion.
> Christianity (and Judaism and .....) has many variants.
> Some of those variants have web sites. But a single
> "official site" for Christianity (or Judasm or ....)
> does not exist.
And "Christianity" and "Catholicism" are two different "religions"? I am
afraid that says more about the OP's background and mode of thinking
than about either of the two links or denominations in themselves. He
may really need some training in "religiousunity". Hint: Most Catholics
actually think of themselves as Christians, so there is one less to
think of. Easy... But four (4) different links to Scientology, all
positive to it? Hm. And lots of hatred and animosity towards people
attempting to debunk "cults"? A pattern emerges here, don't you think?
Let's put it this way, and to the OP, not to Wes: If this is really
"your life's work", I feel sorry for you. You are in clear need of some
help to gain a fresh outlook on life beyond religious conspiracy
theories. "Get a life", it is often called in geek circles. Try it.
Perhaps this might be the occasion.
--
/Jon
For contact info, run the following in Terminal:
echo 36199371860304980107073482417748002696458P|dc
Jon
Hm. If you _really_ want to see sites of those who think they are the
only ones going to heaven, look at some Greek and Russian Orthodox
sites.[1] The Vatican is actually aware - after Vatican II in the 60's -
that there are other Christians out there. Many Orthodox, OTOH... :-(
[1] Now I am not counting the US Evangelicals. But they are a lost case.
G.T.
> In article <1179971586.8...@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> ac_t...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> But recently a bunch of unhappy guys running back and forth in Asia
>> have decided that the site should be no more. Somehow they are using
>> the Apple iNet tool to do this.
>
> security on the site; it doesn't matter what tools they use.
>
> Blaming Jobs is the height of idiocy; he has nothing to do with it.
>
You mean it's the height of paranoia. Clearly this guy needs meds.
Greg
--
The ticketbastard Tax Tracker:
http://www.ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html
Dethink to survive - Mclusky
Kurt Ullman
Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
That would be the official website for Catholicism. I dont' think that
would qualify for Christianity as a whole. (g)
Graeme Wood
Everyone knows that the one true faith is found in the Free Church of
Scotland.
Paul Russell
Don't be silly - everyone knows that the one true faith is the Church of
the SubGenius: <http://www.subgenius.com/>.
Paul
Jon
Amen t'yall, brothers -- as long as you absolutely and unequivocally
affirm that the King James translation (1611) is the Only True Bible
(tm): "If it was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!"
Mike Rosenberg
> Or is this the kind of doublespeak where "literally" means "figuratively"?
> :-)
Yes, it literally is.
Richard Tobin
Michelle Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:
>If someone hacked into your site, it means that you don't have adequate
>security on the site; it doesn't matter what tools they use.
>
>Blaming Jobs is the height of idiocy; he has nothing to do with it.
Duh. He's just hyping his website.
-- Richard
--
"Consideration shall be given to the need for as many as 32 characters
in some alphabets" - X3.4, 1963.
Howard
>
> In article <michelle-5F5854...@news.east.cox.net>,
> Michelle Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:
>
> >If someone hacked into your site, it means that you don't have adequate
> >security on the site; it doesn't matter what tools they use.
> >
> >Blaming Jobs is the height of idiocy; he has nothing to do with it.
>
> Duh. He's just hyping his website.
>
> -- Richard
Actually, this doesn't seem to be the case. What appears to be going
on is an ongoing rumble between the scientologists and some wiccans
who are tormenting them over their abusive conduct towards critics
of the 'church'.
Get some popcorn, sit back and enjoy the action...
Howard
--
hedmundoatmacmaildotcom
Jon
> Richard Tobin wrote:
> >
> > In article <michelle-5F5854...@news.east.cox.net>,
> > Michelle Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:
> >
> > >If someone hacked into your site, it means that you don't have adequate
> > >security on the site; it doesn't matter what tools they use.
> > >
> > >Blaming Jobs is the height of idiocy; he has nothing to do with it.
> >
> > Duh. He's just hyping his website.
> >
> > -- Richard
>
>
> Actually, this doesn't seem to be the case. What appears to be going
> on is an ongoing rumble between the scientologists and some wiccans
> who are tormenting them over their abusive conduct towards critics
> of the 'church'.
Spot on, mesa thinks.
But as I've seen that particular action before, I desist. :-(
George Kerby
On 5/23/07 9:59 PM, in article Nc75i.8643$ky6.6670@trnddc02, "Wes Groleau"
<grolea...@freeshell.org> wrote:
> ac_t...@hotmail.com
>
> I have no clue what on earth you are talking about.
> The site appears normal to me.
>
> But here's a clue for you: "Christianity Today" is a magazine.
> It is NOT the "official site" of the Christian religion.
> Christianity (and Judaism and .....) has many variants.
> Some of those variants have web sites. But a single
> "official site" for Christianity (or Judasm or ....)
> does not exist.
>
A nymshift for "Bible John"?!?
Tim McNamara
<kurtullman-29F65...@customer-201-125-217-207.uninet.net.mx
>,
Kurt Ullman <kurtu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
According to the nuns and priests who taught me catechism, the Roman
Catholic Church *is* the sum total of Christianity and everybody else is
a heretic and on a bus ride to eternal damnation.
Of course, the Lutherans have a different opinion...
Tim McNamara
see_si...@mac.com.invalid (Jon) wrote:
LOL! I have an uncle who actually believes that.
Clever Monkey
> <ac_t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> So even though I am quite literally operating out of a shoebox
>
> I strongly doubt that you have _literally_ been operating out of a
> shoebox, or are you literally that small?
>
Clever Monkey
--
clvrmnky <mailto:spam...@clevermonkey.org>
Direct replies will be blacklisted. Replace "spamtrap" with my name to
contact me directly.
Tim Streater
Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
The papacy should be scrapped.
John McWilliams
> Richard Maine <nos...@see.signature> wrote:
>
>> Or is this the kind of doublespeak where "literally" means "figuratively"?
>> :-)
>
> Yes, it literally is.
>
--
john mcwilliams
Jon
Now there speaks a true mystic.
Jon
> A nymshift for "Bible John"?!?
Nope. ;-) This one is pro Scientology. I think even BJ draws the line
somewhere this side of that - on his medicated days, that is.
John McWilliams
>
>
> According to the nuns and priests who taught me catechism, the Roman
> Catholic Church *is* the sum total of Christianity and everybody else is
> a heretic and on a bus ride to eternal damnation.
>
> Of course, the Lutherans have a different opinion...
Yes, apparently! I hear rumblings of this on The Tudors, and it sounds
like it might be Hank's ace in the hole, 'cause some of those Bishops
and the Pope aren't dancing to his tune fast enough.
Did I mention I love "The Tudors"? Not the people who lived in that
time, as I was born shortly thereafter, but the tv series. My only
question is does Henry ever grow the red beard every other depiction of
him shows?
--
john mcwilliams
Tom Stiller
see_si...@mac.com.invalid (Jon) wrote:
Nah. Teco is more fundamental. The true test was to open a file, type
your name, and see what resulted. :)
--
Tom Stiller
PGP fingerprint = 5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3
7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF
Tim Streater
Tom Stiller <tomst...@comcast.net> wrote:
More fundamental is a bar magnet, iron filings, and a magnifying glass.
You can read and write the bits directly by hand, with a huge attendant
saving of CPU cycles.
Clever Monkey
I prefer using the spilt entrails of birds to divine the meaning of the
data.
Clever Monkey
There is an interesting discussion possible here via structural
fundamentalism. But I won't go there. I promised my parole officer I
wouldn't.
Bruce Grubb
> In article <Nc75i.8643$ky6.6670@trnddc02>,
> Wes Groleau <grolea...@freeshell.org> wrote:
>
> > ac_t...@hotmail.com
> >
> > I have no clue what on earth you are talking about. The site appears
> > normal to me.
> >
> > But here's a clue for you: "Christianity Today" is a magazine. It is
> > NOT the "official site" of the Christian religion. Christianity (and
> > Judaism and .....) has many variants. Some of those variants have web
> > sites. But a single "official site" for Christianity (or Judasm or
> > ....) does not exist.
>
> Some would beg to differ with you:
>
> http://www.vatican.va/
And still others would point out that even Roman Catholicism has different
aspects.
Mike Rosenberg
> According to the nuns and priests who taught me catechism, the Roman
> Catholic Church *is* the sum total of Christianity and everybody else is
> a heretic and on a bus ride to eternal damnation.
>
> Of course, the Lutherans have a different opinion...
Based on my Jewish upbringing, I'm curious to know who is this Jesus
fellow I keep hearing about.
James Glidewell
> My problem is that for the last 10 plus years I have been slaving away
> at my website. It is not for nothing that www.religiousfreedomwatch.org
> is constantly and daily voted one of the top ethical and useful sites
> on the world wide web.
Maybe you guys should write to the proprietor of <http://www.xenu.net> for
advice...
I understand that he has been helpful to scientologists in the past, despite
his differences of opinion on your beliefs and actions.
The New Guy
> > Catholic Church *is* the sum total of Christianity and everybody else is
> > a heretic and on a bus ride to eternal damnation.
> >
> > Of course, the Lutherans have a different opinion...
>
> Based on my Jewish upbringing, I'm curious to know who is this Jesus
> fellow I keep hearing about.
Just some Guy who cared enough for you to die for you, suffering
immense pain in the process. That's all. And that pain is all the
more significant when one realizes He could have avoided it so easily.
His mother was Jewish, lest we forget. Every author of the New
Testament was Jewish, lest we forget. The Bible, for the Christian is
still a Jewish book. Lest any of us forget. Anybody that has studied
History in this time period, in that area of the world, knows that the
existence of Jesus Christ is one of the most proven historical facts
in the world. References and cross references abound in the writings
of the day and afterward. Many, many people in that time period died
and before that sacrificed everything in their lives because of His
impact. Its rare that people do that for no reason. Mass insanity is
a rare trait. Though in this newsgroup..........:) (Just kidding.)
Mike Rosenberg
> > Based on my Jewish upbringing, I'm curious to know who is this Jesus
> > fellow I keep hearing about.
>
> Just some Guy who cared enough for you...
Do you really think I actually have no knowledge of this opinion?
Richard Tobin
The New Guy <replyt...@here.thanks> wrote:
>Just some Guy who cared enough for you to die for you
Didn't work, did it.
Anyway, it's not the same when you know you're going to come to life
again.
The New Guy
> > > fellow I keep hearing about.
> >
> > Just some Guy who cared enough for you...
>
> Do you really think I actually have no knowledge of this opinion?
But of course you do.
But what we know, and what we value, are often a world apart! :)
Sue Rodgers
> The only writings of the day that mentioned him are in the Bible (and
> even that was written years later) and possibly some of the writings of
> Josephus. All writings afterward rely on the Bible.
>
> There is very little, if any, historical fact about his existence.
I believe nothing was written about him until some 25 years after he was
said to have died. The Romans have no record of him at all, and you
would think they of all people would have noticed.
--
Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see...
Woody
> > > According to the nuns and priests who taught me catechism, the Roman
> > > Catholic Church *is* the sum total of Christianity and everybody else is
> > > a heretic and on a bus ride to eternal damnation.
> > >
> > > Of course, the Lutherans have a different opinion...
> >
> > Based on my Jewish upbringing, I'm curious to know who is this Jesus
> > fellow I keep hearing about.
>
> And that pain is all the
> more significant when one realizes He could have avoided it so easily.
Doesn't that mean he could qualify for the darwin awards?
--
Woody
Woody
> So even though I am quite literally operating out of a shoebox ...
Do you do all your thinking in there?
--
Woody
Jeffrey Goldberg
> My problem is that for the last 10 plus years I have been slaving away
> at my website. It is not for nothing that www.religiousfreedomwatch.org
What does it take to be added the list of anti-religious extremists on
your site? Do I have to support violance, or is consistently ridiculing
religion enough? If the later is sufficient, please add me to your list.
> But recently a bunch of unhappy guys running back and forth in Asia
> have decided that the site should be no more. Somehow they are using
> the Apple iNet tool to do this.
Please elaborate on that. Can you give details of the nature of the
attack? (Extracts from logs are the best). Note that I (and I'm sure
others here as well) are skeptical of your analysis of events, since,
among other things, your message displays some substantial ignorance of
how the web (and even your own website) works.
> My site can give you the details
Where? I've look around your site and haven't found the details of what
you are talking about.
> but I am afraid I need the help right now.
>
> My own thoughts are that a complete rethink of the ASP protocol will
> block these guys out
Without details of what "these guys" are doing no one can help. But I do
doubt that ASP is will be part of the solution. Thorzine (or the more
modern generation of such tools) seems like a more promising approach.
But it's hard to tell what is going on.
> Someone said that if I rehosted to Linux the problem could go away,
> does anyone out there concur with that as an option?
Your site is already hosted on Linux
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 18:22:00 GMT
Server: NOYB
X-Powered-By: PHP/5.1.6-pl6-gentoo
X-Pingback: http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.org/xmlrpc.php
Status: 200 OK
Keep-Alive: timeout=15, max=100
Connection: Keep-Alive
Transfer-Encoding: chunked
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
unless the X-Powered-By header is giving false information. So if you are
going to conceal server information, you may wish to set the X-Powered-By:
header to something that doesn't give the game away.
-j
--
Jeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/
Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice
I rarely read top-posted, over-quoting or HTML postings.
Jeffrey Goldberg
> According to the nuns and priests who taught me catechism, the Roman
> Catholic Church *is* the sum total of Christianity and everybody else is
> a heretic and on a bus ride to eternal damnation.
>
> Of course, the Lutherans have a different opinion...
Surely the Lutherans have the identical opinion, if you switch around some
names.
Paul Floyd
<replyt...@here.thanks> wrote:
>> > According to the nuns and priests who taught me catechism, the Roman
>> > Catholic Church *is* the sum total of Christianity and everybody else is
>> > a heretic and on a bus ride to eternal damnation.
>> >
>> > Of course, the Lutherans have a different opinion...
>>
>> Based on my Jewish upbringing, I'm curious to know who is this Jesus
>> fellow I keep hearing about.
>
> Just some Guy who cared enough for you to die for you, suffering
> immense pain in the process. That's all. And that pain is all the
> more significant when one realizes He could have avoided it so easily.
What's this, comp.sys.mac.god.botherers suddenly?
Paul
Jeffrey Goldberg
> Based on my Jewish upbringing, I'm curious to know who is this Jesus
> fellow I keep hearing about.
I think that he's the character from some old myths that died and changed
into an egg laying rabbit.
I think he also had some nice things to say about cheese makers, but I've
always been unclear on that point.
He must also have worked for the government because he seemed to think
that is was fair to pay grape pickers who worked just one hour in the
evening the same amount as those who worked all day in the heat.
But as a Jew there is only one thing that you really need to know: If He
is risen then he isn't kosher for passover. So don't take communion at
that time.
Howard
>
> On Wed, 23 May 2007, ac_t...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > My problem is that for the last 10 plus years I have been slaving away
> > at my website. It is not for nothing that www.religiousfreedomwatch.org
<snippage>
> Without details of what "these guys" are doing no one can help. But I do
> doubt that ASP is will be part of the solution. Thorzine (or the more
> modern generation of such tools) seems like a more promising approach.
> But it's hard to tell what is going on.
No, all you have to do is write critical emails, picket a CoS
establishment, publicly take issue with the way in which family
members are sundered from one another over 'doctrinal' issues, or
their bat shit crazy opposition to any other form of mental healing
but theirs.
Quite apart from the way they use front groups like ABLE, WISE,
Narconon, Applied Scholastics, CCHR et al to recruit and smarm their
way into positions of influence.
>
> > Someone said that if I rehosted to Linux the problem could go away,
> > does anyone out there concur with that as an option?
>
> Your site is already hosted on Linux
>
> Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 18:22:00 GMT
> Server: NOYB
> X-Powered-By: PHP/5.1.6-pl6-gentoo
> X-Pingback: http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.org/xmlrpc.php
> Status: 200 OK
> Keep-Alive: timeout=15, max=100
> Connection: Keep-Alive
> Transfer-Encoding: chunked
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
>
> unless the X-Powered-By header is giving false information. So if you are
> going to conceal server information, you may wish to set the X-Powered-By:
> header to something that doesn't give the game away.
Relax j.
This is just a taunt from the wiccans who are giving the owner of
religiousfreedomwatch a challenging time. Not quite a troll, more of
an 'up yours' to the organisation that has offered USD 5,000 to
compromise the TOR network and identify them.
Personally I think that's stingy. I'd want at least another nought
on that - and an agreement that I could keep the extra hardware.
Howard
--
hedmundoatmacmaildotcom
The New Guy
> > > Jesus fellow I keep hearing about.
> >
> > Just some Guy who cared enough for you to die for you, suffering
> > immense pain in the process. That's all. And that pain is all the
> > more significant when one realizes He could have avoided it so
> > easily.
>
Up to you what you want to accept or deny of course. Hey, there's
always tomorrow. Well.......there's probably tomorrow. We never know
for sure what day will be our last of course.
> > Anybody that has studied History in this time period, in that area of
> > the world, knows that the existence of Jesus Christ is one of the
> > most proven historical facts in the world. References and cross
> > references abound in the writings of the day and afterward.
>
> The only writings of the day that mentioned him are in the Bible (and
> even that was written years later) and possibly some of the writings of
> Josephus. All writings afterward rely on the Bible.
> There is very little, if any, historical fact about his existence.
http://www.everystudent.com/forum/historical.html
Q: "Are there any historical writings, other than the Bible, that
prove that Jesus ever really lived?"
our A: Yes. Cornelius Tacitus (A.D. 55-120) was considered the
greatest historian of ancient Rome. He wrote of Nero who "punished
with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called
Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus [Christ],
the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate,
procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious
superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through
Judea, where the mischief originiated, but through the city of Rome
also."1
Also, Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian, (A.D. 38-100+) wrote about
Jesus in his Jewish Antiquities, saying that Jesus was a wise man who
did surprising feats, taught many, won over followers from among Jews
and Greeks, that Jesus was believed to be the Messiah, was accused by
the Jewish leaders, was condemned to be crucified by Pilate, and was
considered to be resurrected.2
The existence of Jesus Christ is recorded not only by Josephus and
Tacitus, but also by ancient writers such as Suetonius, Thallus, Pliny
the Younger, and Lucian. And from the Jewish Talmud, "we learn that
Jesus was conceived out of wedlock, gathered disciples, made
blasphemous claims about himself, and worked miracles, but these
miracles are attributed to sorcery and not to God."
Thus, historians both favorable and unfavorable regarding Jesus did
write about him. Also there were many historical writings about the
early Christians.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm
A. Tacitus
We possess at least the testimony of Tacitus (A.D. 54-119) for the
statements that the Founder of the Christian religion, a deadly
superstition in the eyes of the Romans, had been put to death by the
procurator Pontius Pilate under the reign of Tiberius; that His
religion, though suppressed for a time, broke forth again not only
throughout Judea where it had originated, but even in Rome, the
conflux of all the streams of wickness and shamelessness; furthermore,
that Nero had diverted from himself the suspicion of the burning of
Rome by charging the Christians with the crime; that these latter were
not guilty of arson, though they deserved their fate on account of
their universal misanthropy. Tacitus, moreover, describes some of the
horrible torments to which Nero subjected the Christians (Ann., XV,
xliv). The Roman writer confounds the Christians with the Jews,
considering them as a especially abject Jewish sect; how little he
investigated the historical truth of even the Jewish records may be
inferred from the credulity with which he accepted the absurd legends
and calumnies about the origin of he Hebrew people (Hist., V, iii,
iv).
B. Suetonius
Another Roman writer who shows his acquaintance with Christ and the
Christians is Suetonius (A.D. 75-160). It has been noted that
Suetonius considered Christ (Chrestus) as a Roman insurgent who
stirred up seditions under the reign of Claudius (A.D. 41-54):
"Judaeos, impulsore Chresto, assidue tumultuantes (Claudius) Roma
expulit" (Clau., xxv). In his life of Nero he regards that emperor as
a public benefactor on account of his severe treatment of the
Christians: "Multa sub eo et animadversa severe, et coercita, nec
minus instituta . . . . afflicti Christiani, genus hominum
superstitious novae et maleficae" (Nero, xvi). The Roman writer does
not understand that the Jewish troubles arose from the Jewish
antagonism to the Messianic character of Jesus Christ and to the
rights of the Christian Church.
C. Pliny the Younger
Of greater importance is the letter of Pliny the Younger to the
Emperor Trajan (about A.D. 61-115), in which the Governor of Bithynia
consults his imperial majesty as to how to deal with the Christians
living within his jurisdiction. On the one hand, their lives were
confessedly innocent; no crime could be proved against them excepting
their Christian belief, which appeared to the Roman as an extravagant
and perverse superstition. On the other hand, the Christians could not
be shaken in their allegiance to Christ, Whom they celebrated as their
God in their early morning meetings (Ep., X, 97, 98). Christianity
here appears no longer as a religion of criminals, as it does in the
texts of Tacitus and Suetonius; Pliny acknowledges the high moral
principles of the Christians, admires their constancy in the Faith
(pervicacia et inflexibilis obstinatio), which he appears to trace
back to their worship of Christ (carmenque Christo, quasi Deo,
dicere).
D. Other pagan writers
The remaining pagan witnesses are of less importance: In the second
century Lucian sneered at Christ and the Christians, as he scoffed at
the pagan gods. He alludes to Christ's death on the Cross, to His
miracles, to the mutual love prevailing among the Christians
("Philopseudes", nn. 13, 16; "De Morte Pereg"). There are also alleged
allusions to Christ in Numenius (Origen, "Contra Cels", IV, 51), to
His parables in Galerius, to the earthquake at the Crucifixion in
Phlegon ( Origen, "Contra Cels.", II, 14). Before the end of the
second century, the logos alethes of Celsus, as quoted by Origen
(Contra Cels., passim), testifies that at that time the facts related
in the Gospels were generally accepted as historically true. However
scanty the pagan sources of the life of Christ may be, they bear at
least testimony to His existence, to His miracles, His parables, His
claim to Divine worship, His death on the Cross, and to the more
striking characteristics of His religion.
II. JEWISH SOURCES
A. Philo
Philo, who dies after A.D. 40, is mainly important for the light he
throws on certain modes of thought and phraseology found again in some
of the Apostles. Eusebius (Hist. Eccl., II, iv) indeed preserves a
legend that Philo had met St. Peter in Rome during his mission to the
Emperor Caius; moreover, that in his work on the contemplative life he
describes the life of the Christian Church in Alexandria founded by
St. Mark, rather than that of the Essenes and Therapeutae. But it is
hardly probable that Philo had heard enough of Christ and His
followers to give an historical foundation to the foregoing legends.
B. Josephus
The earlist non-Christian writer who refers Christ is the Jewish
historian Flavius Josephus; born A.D. 37, he was a contemporary of the
Apostles, and died in Rome A.D. 94. Two passages in his "Antiquities"
which confirm two facts of the inspired Christian records are not
disputed. In the one he reports the murder of "John called Baptist" by
Herod (Ant., XVIII, v, 2), describing also John's character and work;
in the other (Ant., XX, ix, 1) he disappoves of the sentence
pronounced by the high priest Ananus against "James, brother of Jesus
Who was called Christ." It is antecedently probable that a writer so
well informed as Josephus, must have been well acquainted too with the
doctrine and the history of Jesus Christ. Seeing, also, that he
records events of minor importance in the history of the Jews, it
would be surprising if he were to keep silence about Jesus Christ.
Consideration for the priests and Pharisees did not prevent him from
mentioning the judicial murders of John the Baptist and the Apostle
James; his endeavour to find the fulfilment of the Messianic
prophecies in Vespasian did not induce him to pass in silence over
several Jewish sects, though their tenets appear to be inconsistent
with the Vespasian claims. One naturally expects, therefore, a notice
about Jesus Christ in Josephus. Antiquities XVIII, iii, 3, seems to
satisfy this expectation:
About this time appeared Jesus, a wise man (if indeed it is right to
call Him man; for He was a worker of astonishing deeds, a teacher of
such men as receive the truth with joy), and He drew to Himself many
Jews (many also of Greeks. This was the Christ.) And when Pilate, at
the denunciation of those that are foremost among us, had condemned
Him to the cross, those who had first loved Him did not abandon Him
(for He appeared to them alive again on the third day, the holy
prophets having foretold this and countless other marvels about Him.)
The tribe of Christians named after Him did not cease to this day.
A testimony so important as the foregoing could not escape the work of
the critics. Their conclusions may be reduced to three headings: those
who consider the passage wholly spurious; those who consider it to be
wholly authentic; and those who consider it to be a little of each.
Those who regard the passage as spurious
First, there are those who consider the whole passage as spurious. The
principal reasons for this view appear to be the following:
Josephus could not represent Jesus Christ as a simple moralist, and on
the other hand he could not emphasize the Messianic prophecies and
expectations without offending the Roman susceptibilities;
the above cited passage from Josephus is said to be unknown to Origen
and the earlier patristic writers;
its very place in the Josephan text is uncertain, since Eusebius
(Hist. Eccl., II, vi) must have found it before the notices concerning
Pilate, while it now stands after them.
But the spuriousness of the disputed Josephan passage does not imply
the historian's ignorance of the facts connected with Jesus Christ.
Josephus's report of his own juvenile precocity before the Jewish
teachers (Vit., 2) reminds one of the story of Christ's stay in the
Temple at the age of twelve; the description of his shipwreck on his
journey to Rome (Vit., 3) recalls St. Paul's shipwreck as told in the
Acts; finally his arbitrary introduction of a deceit practised by the
priests of Isis on a Roman lady, after the chapter containing his
supposed allusion to Jesus, shows a disposition to explain away the
virgin birth of Jesus and to prepare the falsehoods embodied in the
later Jewish writings.
Those who regard the passage as authentic, with some spurious
additions
A second class of critics do not regard the whole of Josephus's
testimony concerning Christ as spurious but they maintain the
interpolation of parts included above in parenthesis. The reasons
assigned for this opinion may be reduced to the following two:
Josephus must have mentioned Jesus, but he cannot have recognized Him
as the Christ; hence part of our present Josephan text must be
genuine, part must be interpolated.
Again, the same conclusion follows from the fact that Origen knew a
Josephan text about Jesus, but was not acquainted with our present
reading; for, according to the great Alexandrian doctor, Josephus did
not believe that Jesus was the Messias ("In Matth.", xiii, 55; "Contra
Cels.", I, 47).
Whatever force these two arguments have is lost by the fact that
Josephus did not write for the Jews but for the Romans; consequently,
when he says, "This was the Christ", he does not necessarily imply
that Jesus was the Christ considered by the Romans as the founder of
the Christian religion.
Those who consider it to be completely genuine
The third class of scholars believe that the whole passage concerning
Jesus, as it is found today in Josephus, is genuine. The main
arguments for the genuineness of the Josephan passage are the
following:
First, all codices or manuscripts of Josephus's work contain the text
in question; to maintain the spuriousness of the text, we must suppose
that all the copies of Josephus were in the hands of Christians, and
were changed in the same way.
Second, it is true that neither Tertullian nor St. Justin makes use of
Josephus's passage concerning Jesus; but this silence is probably due
to the contempt with which the contemporary Jews regarded Josephus,
and to the relatively little authority he had among the Roman readers.
Writers of the age of Tertullian and Justin could appeal to living
witnesses of the Apostolic tradition.
Third, Eusebius ("Hist. Eccl"., I, xi; cf. "Dem. Ev.", III, v) Sozomen
(Hist. Eccl., I, i), Niceph. (Hist. Eccl., I, 39), Isidore of Pelusium
(Ep. IV, 225), St. Jerome (catal.script. eccles. xiii), Ambrose,
Cassiodorus, etc., appeal to the testimony of Josephus; there must
have been no doubt as to its authenticity at the time of these
illustrious writers.
Fourth, the complete silence of Josephus as to Jesus would have been a
more eloquent testimony than we possess in his present text; this
latter contains no statement incompatible with its Josephan
authorship: the Roman reader needed the information that Jesus was the
Christ, or the founder of the Christian religion; the wonderful works
of Jesus and His Resurrection from the dead were so incessantly urged
by the Christians that without these attributes the Josephan Jesus
would hardly have been acknowledged as the founder of Christianity.
All this does not necessarily imply that Josephus regarded Jesus as
the Jewish Messias; but, even if he had been convinced of His
Messiahship, it does not follow that he would have become a Christian.
A number of possible subterfuges might have supplied the Jewish
historian with apparently sufficient reasons for not embracing
Christianity.
C. Other Jewish Sources
The historical character of Jesus Christ is also attested by the
hostile Jewish literature of the subsequent centuries. His birth is
ascribed to an illicit ("Acta Pilati" in Thilo, "Codex apocryph. N.T.,
I, 526; cf. Justin, "Apol.", I, 35), or even an adulterous, union of
His parents (Origen, "Contra Cels.," I, 28, 32). The father's name is
Panthera, a common soldier (Gemara "Sanhedrin", viii; "Schabbath",
xii, cf. Eisenmenger, "Entdecktes Judenthum", I, 109; Schottgen,
"Horae Hebraicae", II, 696; Buxtorf, "Lex. Chald.", Basle, 1639, 1459,
Huldreich, "Sepher toledhoth yeshua hannaceri", Leyden, 1705). The
last work in its final edition did not appear before the thirteenth
century, so that it could give the Panthera myth in its most advanced
form. Rosch is of opinion that the myth did not begin before the end
of the first century.
The later Jewish writings show traces of acquaintance with the murder
of the Holy Innocents (Wagenseil, "Confut. Libr.Toldoth", 15;
Eisenmenger op. cit., I, 116; Schottgen, op. cit., II, 667), with the
flight into Egypt (cf. Josephus, "Ant." XIII, xiii), with the stay of
Jesus in the Temple at the age of twelve (Schottgen, op. cit., II,
696), with the call of the disciples ("Sanhedrin", 43a; Wagenseil, op.
cit., 17; Schottgen, loc. cit., 713), with His miracles (Origen,
"Contra Cels", II, 48; Wagenseil, op. cit., 150; Gemara "Sanhedrin"
fol. 17); "Schabbath", fol. 104b; Wagenseil, op.cit., 6, 7, 17), with
His claim to be God (Origen, "Contra Cels.", I, 28; cf. Eisenmenger,
op. cit., I, 152; Schottgen, loc. cit., 699) with His betrayal by
Judas and His death (Origen, "Contra cels.", II, 9, 45, 68, 70;
Buxtorf, op. cit., 1458; Lightfoot, "Hor. Heb.", 458, 490, 498;
Eisenmenger, loc. cit., 185; Schottgen, loc. cit.,699 700; cf.
"Sanhedrin", vi, vii). Celsus (Origen, "Contra Cels.", II, 55) tries
to throw doubt on the Resurrection, while Toldoth (cf. Wagenseil, 19)
repeats the Jewish fiction that the body of Jesus had been stolen from
the sepulchre.
III. CHRISTIAN SOURCES
Among the Christian sources of the life of Jesus we need hardly
mention the so called Agrapha and Apocrypha. For whether the Agrapha
contain Logia of Jesus, or refer to incidents in His life, they are
either highly uncertain or present only variations of the Gospel
story. The chief value of the Apocrypha consists in their showing the
infinite superiority of the Inspired Writings by contrasting the
coarse and erroneous productions of the human mind with the simple and
sublime truths written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.
Among the Sacred Books of the New Testament, it is especially the four
Gospels and the four great Epistles of St. Paul that are of the
highest importance for the construction of the life of Jesus.
The four great Pauline Epistles (Romans, Galatians, and First and
Second Corinthinas) can hardly be overestimated by the student of
Christ's life; they have at times been called the "fifth gospel";
their authenticity has never been assailed by serious critics; their
testimony is also earlier than that of the Gospels, at least most of
the Gospels; it is the more valuable because it is incidental and
undesigned; it is the testimony of a highly intellectual and cultured
writer, who had been the greatest enemy of Jesus, who writes within
twenty-five years of the events which he relates. At the same time,
these four great Epistles bear witness to all the most important facts
in the life of Christ: His Davidic dscent, His poverty, His
Messiahship, His moral teaching, His preaching of the kingdom of God,
His calling of the apostles, His miraculous power, His claims to be
God, His betrayal, His institution of the Holy Eucharist, His passion,
crucifixion, burial, resurrection, His repeated appearances (Romans
1:3-4; 5:11; 8:2-3; 8:32; 9:5; 15:8; Galatians 2:17; 3:13; 4:4; 5:21;
1 Corinthians 6:9; 13:4; etc.). However important the four great
Epistles may be, the gospels are still more so. Not that any one of
them offers a complete biography of Jesus, but they account for the
origin of Christianity by the life of its Founder. Questions like the
authenticity of the Gospels, the relation between the Synoptic
Gospels, and the Fourth, the Synoptic problem, must be studied in the
articles referring to these respective subjects.
Paul Russell
> In article <5bkvtoF...@mid.individual.net>,
> Paul Russell <prus...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> Don't be silly - everyone knows that the one true faith is the Church
>> of the SubGenius: <http://www.subgenius.com/>.
>
>
A quality site indeed:
>
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>
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>
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>
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Paul
The New Guy
Michelle Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:
> In article
> <replytogroup-3B2E...@news.lga.highwinds-media.com>,
> The New Guy <replyt...@here.thanks> wrote:
>
> > > > Just some Guy who cared enough for you to die for you, suffering
> > > > immense pain in the process. That's all. And that pain is all
> > > > the more significant when one realizes He could have avoided it
> > > > so easily.
> > >
> > > Not for me, he didn't.
> >
> > Up to you what you want to accept or deny of course.
>
> I accept facts and reality, and deny delusions presented as fact and/or
> reality.
>
> > Q: "Are there any historical writings, other than the Bible, that
> > prove that Jesus ever really lived?"
> >
> > our A: Yes. Cornelius Tacitus (A.D. 55-120) was considered the
> > greatest historian of ancient Rome. He wrote of Nero who "punished
> > with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called
> > Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus [Christ],
> > the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate,
> > procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious
> > superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through
> > Judea, where the mischief originiated, but through the city of Rome
> > also."1
>
> If Jesus existed, he died 25 years before Tacitus was born.
>
> > Also, Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian, (A.D. 38-100+) wrote
> > about Jesus in his Jewish Antiquities, saying that Jesus was a wise
> > man who did surprising feats, taught many, won over followers from
> > among Jews and Greeks, that Jesus was believed to be the Messiah, was
> > accused by the Jewish leaders, was condemned to be crucified by
> > Pilate, and was considered to be resurrected.2
>
> He was born after Jesus died, if there was a historical Jesus.
>
> Ditto for the rest of your sources. Fact is that there are no
> contemporaneous writings about Jesus--not even the Gospels were written
> during his supposed lifetime.
You bring up some good points. I'll look into that. As a believer I
should be more knowledgeable in this area, that's for sure.
But if you believe the Bible then you know the Gospels were inspired
by God. So it doesn't matter when they were written. That's faith
based. But I guess that may sound kind of like a copout to an
unbeliever of course. So be it. Nothing I can do about that.
Daniel Packman
The New Guy <replyt...@here.thanks> wrote:
>But if you believe the Bible then you know the Gospels were inspired
>by God. So it doesn't matter when they were written. That's faith
>based. But I guess that may sound kind of like a copout to an
>unbeliever of course. So be it. Nothing I can do about that.
Quite the opposite. Religion is rooted in faith and should be
understood in that fashion. Pretending there is factual basis
for miracles in the bible is just silly.
The New Guy
Michelle Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:
> In article
> <replytogroup-64BF...@news.lga.highwinds-media.com>,
> The New Guy <replyt...@here.thanks> wrote:
>
> > But if you believe the Bible then you know the Gospels were inspired
> > by God.
>
> Who said that I believed it?
I didn't. I said "if". I know you aren't a believer. But there's
always tomorrow. There's always hope. That is, while we're still
alive there is. But then the clock stops ticking. Abruptly.
> The Bible is a mixture of myth, fact, and
> pure fiction. Just because parts of it have been corroborated does not
> mean that any other part is factual.
That's your opinion and you're very much entitled to it! :)
But I'm very curious: what parts do you believe are factual?
Wes Groleau
> Wes Groleau <grolea...@freeshell.org> wrote:
>> sites. But a single "official site" for Christianity (or Judasm or
>> ....) does not exist.
>
> Some would beg to differ with you:
>
> http://www.vatican.va/
The guy who started this thread has "Catholicism" and "Christianity" as
two separate religions on his list of "official sites"
--
Wes Groleau
Pat's Polemics = http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/barrett
The New Guy
> > > > inspired by God.
> > >
> > > Who said that I believed it?
> >
> > I didn't. I said "if". I know you aren't a believer. But there's
> > always tomorrow. There's always hope. That is, while we're still
> > alive there is. But then the clock stops ticking. Abruptly.
>
> believe.
>
> > > The Bible is a mixture of myth, fact, and pure fiction. Just
> > > because parts of it have been corroborated does not mean that any
> > > other part is factual.
> >
> > That's your opinion and you're very much entitled to it! :) But I'm
> > very curious: what parts do you believe are factual?
>
> instance, we know that the Temple of Solomon was real; we know that it
> was destroyed and rebuilt. We know that the Babylonian Exile actually
> happened.
Fair enough. Thanks. By the way, and most Christians won't admit
this or often don't realize it, but the most in depth Christian
scholars are often Jewish (Messianic, believing in Christ of course).
They offer the most in depth analysis and best understanding of the
scriptures most of us ever learn from. After all, Romans 1:16 says
the Christian message is for the Jew first, then the Gentile. The
irony is most Jews are the hardest to reach with the Christian
message. Though I would wager that militant Muslims would be hard to
reach too!
zoara
Oh, I *like* that one.
-z-
--
"I'm sorry, that's not a hair-related question."
The New Guy
> > > > fellow I keep hearing about.
> >
> > > And that pain is all the
> > > more significant when one realizes He could have avoided it so easily.
> >
> > Doesn't that mean he could qualify for the darwin awards?
No. It means He cared enough for you to go through with it. Ever had
spikes pounded into 4 places in your body and left to hang until dead?
Not a nice way to spend your day....
But you were worth it.
Clever Monkey
> Michelle Steiner wrote:
>> In article <5bkvtoF...@mid.individual.net>,
>> Paul Russell <prus...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Don't be silly - everyone knows that the one true faith is the Church
>>> of the SubGenius: <http://www.subgenius.com/>.
>>
>> No, it is <http://www.venganza.org/>
>>
> A quality site indeed:
>
>> Warning: main(): SAFE MODE Restriction in effect. The script whose uid
>> is 10001 is not allowed to access
>> /var/www/vhosts/venganza.org/httpdocs/wp-content/advanced-cache.php
>> owned by uid 0 in
>> /var/www/vhosts/venganza.org/httpdocs/wp-settings.php on line 69
>>
It works just fine for me, which can *only* mean it was an error on your
end.
--
clvrmnky <mailto:spam...@clevermonkey.org>
Direct replies will be blacklisted. Replace "spamtrap" with my name to
contact me directly.
zoara
> > > > > Based on my Jewish upbringing, I'm curious to know who is this Jesus
> > > > > fellow I keep hearing about.
> > >
> > > > And that pain is all the
> > > > more significant when one realizes He could have avoided it so easily.
> > >
> > > Doesn't that mean he could qualify for the darwin awards?
>
> No. It means He cared enough for you to go through with it. Ever had
> spikes pounded into 4 places in your body and left to hang until dead?
Yeah, at last week's AGM. It was a complete bummer.
> But you were worth it.
That was L'Oreal, not Jesus.
Tim McNamara
Wes Groleau <grolea...@freeshell.org> wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > Wes Groleau <grolea...@freeshell.org> wrote:
> >> sites. But a single "official site" for Christianity (or Judasm
> >> or ....) does not exist.
> >
> > Some would beg to differ with you:
> >
> > http://www.vatican.va/
>
> The guy who started this thread has "Catholicism" and "Christianity"
> as two separate religions on his list of "official sites"
From what I've heard over the years, that would not be a unique
perspective. I've heard self-proclaimed Christians denounce Catholics
as idolators and pagans who are going to hell, and I've hard Catholics
say "I'm not Christian, I'm Catholic."
Reminds me of a story I heard once. A convent was given tickets to a
Cubs game. They sat in the stands and their habits were blocking the
view of the fans behind them. Finally one of said fans commented loudly
to his friend, "let's find some seats where there aren't any Catholics."
The Mother Superior turned, smiled and said "you could try going to
Hell. There's no Catholics there."
Tim McNamara
<replytogroup-6851...@news.lga.highwinds-media.com>,
The New Guy <replyt...@here.thanks> wrote:
I wasn't born yet when that is supposed to have happened so he didn't do
it for me.
zoara
> Paul Russell wrote:
> > Michelle Steiner wrote:
> >> In article <5bkvtoF...@mid.individual.net>,
> >> Paul Russell <prus...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Don't be silly - everyone knows that the one true faith is the Church
> >>> of the SubGenius: <http://www.subgenius.com/>.
> >>
> >> No, it is <http://www.venganza.org/>
> >>
> > A quality site indeed:
> >
> >> Warning: main(): SAFE MODE Restriction in effect. The script whose uid
> >> is 10001 is not allowed to access
> >> /var/www/vhosts/venganza.org/httpdocs/wp-content/advanced-cache.php
> >> owned by uid 0 in
> >> /var/www/vhosts/venganza.org/httpdocs/wp-settings.php on line 69
> >>
> [...]
>
> It works just fine for me, which can *only* mean it was an error on your
> end.
Please tell me you aren't, say, a web developer.
Tim McNamara
pa...@shell.dim.com (Daniel Packman) wrote:
The religious tend to conflate belief with fact. Statements like "given
that we know that the world was created on 23 October 4004 BC, the
theory of evolution must be false" abound in the circular reasoning that
underpins religions.
Tim McNamara
<replytogroup-64BF...@news.lga.highwinds-media.com>,
As soon as one insists that the Bible is a literal and factual document,
the whole thing falls apart. If you avoid that pitfall, Christianity
has fewer problems. The same thing holds true for Judaism and Islam and
most other religions with a fundamentalist element.
Tim McNamara
<replytogroup-54A0...@news.lga.highwinds-media.com>,
The New Guy <replyt...@here.thanks> wrote:
> > > > > But if you believe the Bible then you know the Gospels were
> > > > > inspired by God.
> > > >
> > > > Who said that I believed it?
> > >
> > > I didn't. I said "if". I know you aren't a believer. But
> > > there's always tomorrow. There's always hope. That is, while
> > > we're still alive there is. But then the clock stops ticking.
> > > Abruptly.
> >
> > I'm a believer. (Cue the Monkees.) But what I believe is not what
> > you believe.
> >
> > > > The Bible is a mixture of myth, fact, and pure fiction. Just
> > > > because parts of it have been corroborated does not mean that
> > > > any other part is factual.
> > >
> > > That's your opinion and you're very much entitled to it! :) But
> > > I'm very curious: what parts do you believe are factual?
> >
> > The parts that have been corroborated by other sources. Like, for
> > instance, we know that the Temple of Solomon was real; we know that
> > it was destroyed and rebuilt. We know that the Babylonian Exile
> > actually happened.
>
> Fair enough. Thanks. By the way, and most Christians won't admit
> this or often don't realize it, but the most in depth Christian
> scholars are often Jewish (Messianic, believing in Christ of course).
> They offer the most in depth analysis and best understanding of the
> scriptures most of us ever learn from.
Most Jewish scholars tend to be surprised that anyone takes the Bible as
a literal document. They understand that the various books were written
for a specific audience at a specific time under specific circumstances,
and that generalization without careful analysis and understanding of
the context in which that book was written tends to lead to errors of
understanding. We see the awful consequences of this regularly in the
world today.
> After all, Romans 1:16 says the Christian message is for the Jew
> first, then the Gentile. The irony is most Jews are the hardest to
> reach with the Christian message. Though I would wager that militant
> Muslims would be hard to reach too!
Every religion believes it holds the exclusive truth or at least has the
best grasp of the truth. If a religion loses the ability to convince
people of this, the religion ceases to exist. That eventually happens
to all religions, given enough time.
Paul Russell
I'm guessing that he was joking.
It looks like the site has been fixed now though.
Paul
Wes Groleau
> The New Guy <replyt...@here.thanks> wrote
>> more significant when one realizes He could have avoided it so easily.
>
> Doesn't that mean he could qualify for the darwin awards?
No, qualifying criteria for Darwin awards are:
1. Removing yourself from the gene pool
2. Doing it by extreme stupidity
One could argue that death does not remove you from
the gene pool when it is not permanent. OTOH, one
could argue that choosing to have no biological children
does remove you from the gene pool.
But knowing and predicting your own death and choosing
not to evade it disqualifies you from (2).
--
Wes Groleau
"Grant me the serenity to accept those I cannot change;
the courage to change the one I can;
and the wisdom to know it's me."
-- unknown
Wes Groleau
> In article <Gqs5i.11367$kf1.7260@trnddc01>,
> Wes Groleau <grolea...@freeshell.org> wrote:
>
> The Mother Superior turned, smiled and said "you could try going to
> Hell. There's no Catholics there."
:-) Of course, by their own doctrine, you CAN lose your
salvation if you screw up enough and then die without
last rites.
--
Wes Groleau
Change is inevitable.
Liberals need to learn that "inevitable" is not a synonym for "good."
Conservatives should learn that "inevitable" is not a synonym for "bad."
-- WWG
Woody
Strangely enough, no I haven't, but if someone offered me the choice of
that or not that, I still wouldn't have that.
So it was kind of stupid, if indeed that is what happened, and he
certainly didn't do that for me - who knows what he did it for, if he
did it.
--
Woody
Woody
> Woody wrote:
> > The New Guy <replyt...@here.thanks> wrote
> >> And that pain is all the
> >> more significant when one realizes He could have avoided it so easily.
> >
> > Doesn't that mean he could qualify for the darwin awards?
>
> No, qualifying criteria for Darwin awards are:
>
> 1. Removing yourself from the gene pool
> 2. Doing it by extreme stupidity
>
> One could argue that death does not remove you from
> the gene pool when it is not permanent. OTOH, one
> could argue that choosing to have no biological children
> does remove you from the gene pool.
Choosing or not - it removes you from the gene pool.
> But knowing and predicting your own death and choosing
> not to evade it disqualifies you from (2).
Does it? Surely not evading your own death puts you straight into the
path of (2), unless you actually wanted to die, when it wouldn't as that
would be classified as suicide.
--
Woody
Woody
> In article <1hyqlq0.1re7bqhxcxb9cN%use...@alienrat.co.uk>,
> use...@alienrat.co.uk (Woody) wrote:
>
> > > 2. Doing it by extreme stupidity
>
> <snip>
>
> > > But knowing and predicting your own death and choosing not to evade
> > > it disqualifies you from (2).
> >
> > Does it? Surely not evading your own death puts you straight into the
> > path of (2), unless you actually wanted to die, when it wouldn't as
> > that would be classified as suicide.
>
> Oh, really? Say, for instance, you have cancer, and know you will die
> if it is not treated. Say, for instance, that you know that the
> treatment will be painful, and will leave you in a weakened condition
> where your quality of life will be nonoptimal, if not abysmal.
>
> Would refusing that treatment (but accepting treatment to help control
> pain) be stupidity? Would it be suicide?
Of course it wouldn't be stupid, hence the phrase 'unless you actually
wanted to die'. It is your choice.
--
Woody
Woody
> In article <1hyqqp8.15kae7mp2kqpuN%use...@alienrat.co.uk>,
> use...@alienrat.co.uk (Woody) wrote:
>
> > > Would refusing that treatment (but accepting treatment to help
> > > control pain) be stupidity? Would it be suicide?
> >
> > Of course it wouldn't be stupid, hence the phrase 'unless you
> > actually wanted to die'. It is your choice.
>
> But you wouldn't necessarily want to die; you merely accepted the
> situation you're in.
OK, if it is really important to you to split hairs, I will rephrase to
'unless you prefered to die than accept the other option'.
--
Woody
Richard Tobin
Wes Groleau <grolea...@freeshell.org> wrote:
>One could argue that death does not remove you from
>the gene pool when it is not permanent.
I'm still waiting for them to clone some cells from the Turin shroud.
-- Richard
--
"Consideration shall be given to the need for as many as 32 characters
in some alphabets" - X3.4, 1963.
Chris Menzel
> On Thu, 24 May 2007 12:22:25 -0500, The New Guy
> <replyt...@here.thanks> wrote:
>>> > According to the nuns and priests who taught me catechism, the Roman
>>> > Catholic Church *is* the sum total of Christianity and everybody else is
>>> > a heretic and on a bus ride to eternal damnation.
>>> >
>>> > Of course, the Lutherans have a different opinion...
>>>
>>> fellow I keep hearing about.
>>
>> immense pain in the process. That's all. And that pain is all the
>
No, it's USENET.