LCIII or used IIci - which should I get?
Erik Adams
I am looking at a new LC III and a used IIci. Prices
have yet to be worked out, so I'm just thinking right now
about their merits and drawbacks.
Here's what I've thought of:
The IIci has much greater potential for expansion, a la NuBus and
greater memory capacity.
The LC III would be new, under warranty, newer ROMs (is the IIci
"32-bit clean"?), and would have sound input. I also like the
"pizza-box" case.
Performance-wise, I have read that they are almost identical, the
LC III being a little slower.
So, which should I get?
Roy Eassa
>Erik
>er...@cheshire.oxy.edu
>1
Yes, the IIci has 32-bit clean ROMs.
Either model would be a good choice. Another option: get a "new" IIci
from a dealer that hasn't sold out yet. Also, don't forget the Performa
405 which, I believe, is the same as an LC-III but may be packaged with
more goodies for a better price.
Char Aznabul
(Erik Adams) writes:
+ I am looking at a new LC III and a used IIci. Prices
+ The IIci has much greater potential for expansion, a la NuBus and
+ greater memory capacity.
How important is this? How many NuBus cards do you have/plan to
acquire? How much memory do you really need? I've got a ci, and
20mb of ram. That's plenty. I also have a 24bit graphics card
on the NuBus - I'm a sucker for pretty pictures...I think the
LCIII can have a bootable ramdisk in memory, which a ci can
not have. At least, not out of the box.
+ The LC III would be new, under warranty, newer ROMs (is the IIci
+ "32-bit clean"?), and would have sound input. I also like the
+ "pizza-box" case.
The ci is 32-bit clean. I solved the sound input problem with
a MacRecorder. But that's gotten to be a fairly expensive
solution now that Macromind owns MacRecorder.
+ Performance-wise, I have read that they are almost identical, the
+ LC III being a little slower.
The actual difference is probably not worth worrying over.
+ So, which should I get?
Depends on the price you can get the ci for. Educationally speaking,
the 4/80 [?] LCIII here at FSU can be had at just under $1300. Add
in roughly $500 for a monitor. Last I'd heard, an 8mb LCIII simm
went for ~$250.
I think you're in a win-win situation. No matter what you decide,
you'll most likely be happy with it.
James
SAURABH MISRA
According to what I saw in a store today, the Performa 405 is not the same
as an LCIII. It only has a 16Mhz 68030 while the LCIII has a 25Mhz 030.
Correct me if I am wrong, because it is possible that the dealer may have
forgotten to remove the description that was next to the actual computer.
Dealers who sell the Performa are known to have about as much knowledge
about Macs as I do about DOS machines.
Saurabh.
Peter Bell
>In article <1993Apr24....@cheshire.oxy.edu> er...@cheshire.oxy.edu
>(Erik Adams) writes:
>+ I am looking at a new LC III and a used IIci. Prices
>
>+ The IIci has much greater potential for expansion, a la NuBus and
>+ greater memory capacity.
>Depends on the price you can get the ci for. Educationally speaking,
>the 4/80 [?] LCIII here at FSU can be had at just under $1300. Add
>in roughly $500 for a monitor. Last I'd heard, an 8mb LCIII simm
>went for ~$250.
>
>I think you're in a win-win situation. No matter what you decide,
>you'll most likely be happy with it.
>
>James
Yes, and one thing to think about is the pricing on the 160M harddrive
configuration. When I got my lowly classic II, the options were 40 or 80M
harddrives, and it was clear that buying another 40M of harddrive space
would cost *much* more than the difference in price between the two config-
uartions. There is an analogous break in the LCIII/80 and 160 prices, and
you will not regret spending the extra money for a larger harddrive.
Particularly if you ever wind up wanting to use SoftPC, which sets up a
several-MB (up to 30!) partition, or if you are generating large files
with DTP software, or if you might ever want to check out a mac unix-like
os, like MachTen, having the extra space will be helpful. when you are
pricing used IIci's, look at the harddrive size they come with, and how much
it would cost you to add more storage down the road... (Might be a
useful bargaining strategy even if you see no reason to go over 80M, though
I must admit that I am such a packrat that within 6 months of getting my
computer, I was backing up a lot of stuff to floppies that I rarely use to
because I was running out of space, without having started using DTP stuff,
softPC or trying any unix os!)
Mark Rogowsky
>about their merits and drawbacks.
>
>Here's what I've thought of:
>
>
>The LC III would be new, under warranty, newer ROMs (is the IIci
The LCIII has newer ROMs, to be sure, but the IIci is 32-bit clean.
The LCIII should be cheaper than the IIci, even used, based on what
I've seen. Used Mac owners are trying to extract premium prices for
their equipment based on misconceptions about the worth of new
machines. Many educational sites bundle the non-Extended keyboard
with the LCIII, a potential minor drawback.
>
>Performance-wise, I have read that they are almost identical, the
>LC III being a little slower.
>
The IIci has a SRAM cache, which makes it a chunk faster
computationally. The LCIII has dedicated video RAM, which negates
much of the above difference. Also, the LCIII supports 16" monitors
at up to 16-bit color, a nice plus if you have or are thinking about
a monitor of that size. The IIci only supports 13" monitors or the
Apple portrait.
>So, which should I get?
What's your expansion agenda? If it's short over the next 2 years
get the LCIII. The money you might invest in the IIci would be
better saved for a lightning-quick, most expansion functionality
built-in, PowerPC 604-based Mac in 1995.
>
>Erik
>er...@cheshire.oxy.edu
>1
Mark
Mark Rogowsky
an LCIII. OOOOOOH, confusion.
Mark
Ellison Chan
Well, I have a Performa 405 and I ran Speedometer on it.
The report says that my 405 is slight more than 2x the speed of and LC II.
This is what they reported on MacUser for the LCIII. So, my conclusion
is that I have a 25 Mhz cpu.
There.
--
Ellison Chan, Comp. Sys. Analyst 2350 Place TransCanadienne
HNSX Supercomputers Inc., NEC Corp. Dorval, Quebec, Canada H9P 2X5
E-mail: ell...@SX.Mont.NEC.COM (514)684-7705, FAX (514)684-8619
Brian V. Hughes
>The LCIII has dedicated video RAM, which negates much of the above
>difference. Also, the LCIII supports 16" monitors at up to 16-bit color,
>a nice plus if you have or are thinking about a monitor of that size.
>The IIci only supports 13" monitors or the Apple portrait.
Just want to clear up one point. The LCIII doesn support the 16"
monitor, and it does support 16-bit color. It does not, however, support
16-bit color on the 16" monitor. The LCIII has a max. of 768k VRAM. This
is just enough to display 16-bit color on 640x480 monitors. To get a
16-bit color image on an 832x624 (16") monitor you need 1MB of VRAM.
>What's your expansion agenda? If it's short over the next 2 years
>get the LCIII. The money you might invest in the IIci would be
>better saved for a lightning-quick, most expansion functionality
>built-in, PowerPC 604-based Mac in 1995.
The 98604 chip is to be used for laptops and portables. I think the
chip you are thinkning of is the 98603. This is going to be the
mainstream desktop CPU in '95.
-Hades
David Gutierrez
>I am looking at a new LC III and a used IIci. Prices
>have yet to be worked out, so I'm just thinking right now
>about their merits and drawbacks.
I'd get the IIci. It's more expandable, just as fast, and preserves the
option to run System 6.
David Gutierrez
d...@biomath.mda.uth.tmc.edu
"Only fools are positive." - Moe Howard
Ellison Chan
>In article <1993Apr26.1...@sx.mont.nec.com> yne...@sx.mont.nec.com (Ellison Chan) writes:
>>Well, I have a Performa 405 and I ran Speedometer on it.
>>The report says that my 405 is slight more than 2x the speed of and LC II.
>>
>>This is what they reported on MacUser for the LCIII. So, my conclusion
>>is that I have a 25 Mhz cpu.
>>
>>There.
>
>Performa 450 = LC III
>
>If you don't want to take my word for it, just open them up!
Ok, sorry, got the number mixed up. But, I believe that original
poster did mean the LCIII turned Performa machine.
So, all of my about applies only to this machine.
Sorry, for the mix-up.
sun...@coding.bchs.uh.edu
> from a dealer that hasn't sold out yet. Also, don't forget the Performa
> 405 which, I believe, is the same as an LC-III but may be packaged with
> more goodies for a better price.
Thats Performa 450. The 405 is an LC II.
Brian V. Hughes
>smi...@eos.ncsu.edu (SAURABH MISRA) writes:
>>
>>According to what I saw in a store today, the Performa 405 is not the same
>>as an LCIII. It only has a 16Mhz 68030 while the LCIII has a 25Mhz 030.
This is correct. The Performa 405 is a 4/80 LCII bundled with a
monitor, a fax modem and software.
>Well, I have a Performa 405 and I ran Speedometer on it.
>The report says that my 405 is slight more than 2x the speed of and LC II.
Are you sure you read that report correctly? The Performa 405 will
run 2x as fast as a Classic, but it is the same as an LCII.
>This is what they reported on MacUser for the LCIII. So, my conclusion
>is that I have a 25 Mhz cpu.
Well, unfortunately, you do not have have a 25MHz '030 chip if you
have a Performa 405. If you have a Performa 450, then you have an LCIII,
but all other Performa 4xx computers are LCIIs.
-Hades
Brian V. Hughes
>er...@cheshire.oxy.edu (Erik Adams) writes:
>>I am, at long last, going to replace my beloved 512ke.
>>I am looking at a new LC III and a used IIci.
>I'd get the IIci. It's more expandable,
Not something that everyone really needs. It doesn't support as many
monitors, or have the ability to display 16-bit color. The LCIII
supports all Apple monitors, right out of the box.
>just as fast,
True, but it's a discontinued machine, and personally, I would never buy
used when I can get identical performance at the same price new.
>and preserves the option to run System 6.
So what. System 7.1 is worlds better than Sys 6.0.x. I have no
problem not being able to run anything earlier than 7.1. Any program
that breaks under System 7 probably isn't worth running in the first
place. It is also more than easy to replace with one that does run under
System 7.
-Hades
Roy Eassa
You're correct. I stand by my statement, but please switch the '0' and
the '5'. :-)
David Gutierrez
(Brian V. Hughes) wrote:
> d...@biomath.mda.uth.tmc.edu (David Gutierrez) writes:
> >I'd get the IIci. It's more expandable,
>
> Not something that everyone really needs. It doesn't support as many
> monitors, or have the ability to display 16-bit color.
Also not something everyone needs. If 24-bit color is needed, both machines
need a video card and the NuBus ones are easier to find.
> True, but it's a discontinued machine, and personally, I would never buy
> used when I can get identical performance at the same price new.
Even though it's discontinued, it still works.
> >and preserves the option to run System 6.
> So what. System 7.1 is worlds better than Sys 6.0.x. I have no
> problem not being able to run anything earlier than 7.1.
How nice for you. Other people might not agree. System 7.1 has a major
drawback for us - Apple wants $25,000 (if we act fast - otherwise it's
$60,000) to upgrade our licenses for MacX and MacTCP, neither of which work
under System 7.1 without an upgrade.
>Any program
> that breaks under System 7 probably isn't worth running in the first
> place.
I'm sure there are many people wedded to old software who would disagree.
It is also more than easy to replace with one that does run under
> System 7.
If you have unlimited money.
Nicholas Monitto
>Saurabh.
I believe it works like:
P400= LC
P405= LCII
P430 or 435= LCIII
[pulling nos. out of my sleepy head. a thousand pardons if I'm wrong]
Nick
mon...@rpi.edu
Bruce R Rosen
player is sold directly by Sun. I'd like to know if it will
plug into a Mac (once the right cable adapters are added).
Anyone have experience with this? E-mail would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Bruce Rosen
bro...@athena.mit.edu
Brian V. Hughes
>I believe it works like:
>P400= LC
>P405= LCII
>P430 or 435= LCIII
Actually, there are no Performa versions of the LC. The 400, 405,
and 430 are all configurations of the LCII. The LCIII Performa is the
450.
Arthur Greene
du> ha...@coos.dartmouth.edu (Brian V. Hughes) wrote:
> d...@biomath.mda.uth.tmc.edu (David Gutierrez) writes: I'd get the IIci.
>
> Not something that everyone really needs. It doesn't support as many
> monitors, or have the ability to display 16-bit color.
>
du> machines need a video card and the NuBus ones are easier to find.
According to a human at the Apple Assistance Center, the isn't room in the LCIII for a NuBus card. Is this true? If so, 24-bit color might not be an LCIII option.
--
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
Arthur Greene - Internet: Arthur...@p6.f204.n2603.z1.fidonet.org
opinions are mine, not Apple's
smi...@eos.ncsu.edu writes:
>According to what I saw in a store today, the Performa 405 is not the
same
>as an LCIII. It only has a 16Mhz 68030 while the LCIII has a 25Mhz 030.
>Correct me if I am wrong, because it is possible that the dealer may have
>forgotten to remove the description that was next to the actual computer.
>Dealers who sell the Performa are known to have about as much knowledge
>about Macs as I do about DOS machines.
differences, notably the built in software, on-site warranty service,and
monitor included pricing of the Perfroma. But both are good computers;
I'd get them unless you want the NuBus slots in teh IIci. Just my two
cents though.
Van Garrett
Apple Computer Assistance Center
garr...@apple.com
Opinions are mine, not Apple's. If they were Apple's they'd be spelled
better.
opinions are mine, not Apple's
>According to what I saw in a store today, the Performa 405 is not the
same
>as an LCIII. It only has a 16Mhz 68030 while the LCIII has a 25Mhz 030.
>Correct me if I am wrong, because it is possible that the dealer may have
>forgotten to remove the description that was next to the actual computer.
>Dealers who sell the Performa are known to have about as much knowledge
>about Macs as I do about DOS machines.
Adam Samuel Nash
Killeffer, Stephen Eugen
>The LCIII can do 16-bit color on a 16" monitor w/768K VRAM.
Are you sure about this? I was led to believe that the III could
only display 8 bit color (256 colors) on a 16 inch display, whether
it had 512K or 768K VRAM. If what you say is true, are you using
640 X 400 resolution?
Leslie Jones
ljo...@utkvx.utk.edu
Brian V. Hughes
>According to a human at the Apple Assistance Center, the isn't room in
>the LCIII for a NuBus card. Is this true? If so, 24-bit color might not
>be an LCIII option.
Although space would be a limiting factor, the reason the LCIII
doesn't support NuBus cards has to do with the fact that it's PDS slot.
can't be made into a NuBus slot. However, it is a full 32-bit PDS slot,
unlike the old LC/LCII style PDS slot and can have a 24-bit color card
designed for it quite easily. If it can handle an '040 accelerator card,
a 24-bit graphics cardis no problem at all. Of course, this means you
have to wait for a 3rd party to design such a card, but I'm pretty sure
they will.
-Hades
Brian V. Hughes
>smas...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Adam Samuel Nash) writes...
>>The LCIII can do 16-bit color on a 16" monitor w/768K VRAM.
>
>Are you sure about this? I was led to believe that the III could
>only display 8 bit color (256 colors) on a 16 inch display, whether
>it had 512K or 768K VRAM. If what you say is true, are you using
>640 X 400 resolution?
Either that, or he's never actually seen or used an LCIII and is
repeating something that was told to him. In any event, he is wrong. The
LCIII will not support more than 8-bit color on any monitor display
greater than 640x480 (14"). On those monitors, however, you can get
16-bit color if you expand the VRAM to 768k. It is just enough.
-Hades
Arthur Greene
ku> smas...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Adam Samuel Nash) writes...
> The LCIII can do 16-bit color on a 16" monitor w/768K VRAM.
>
ku> display 8 bit color (256 colors) on a 16 inch display, whether it had
ku> 512K or 768K VRAM. If what you say is true, are you using 640 X 400
ku> resolution?
According to the Apple Product Data sheet, the LCIII, with 758K of VRAM, supports 32,768 colors on "the Macintosh 12-inch RGB Display, AppleColor High-Resolution RGB Display (13") and Macintosh Color Display (14").
-256 colors on the Macintosh 16-inch Color Display"
Of course, you can get a card for the PDS slot, and override these limitations.
--AG
scr...@gtewd.mtv.gtegsc.com
> Arthur...@p6.f204.n2603.z1.fidonet.org (Arthur Greene) writes:
>
>>According to a human at the Apple Assistance Center, the isn't room in
>>the LCIII for a NuBus card. Is this true? If so, 24-bit color might not
>>be an LCIII option.
>
Apple Assistance Center ? Could the number be posted, or E-Mailed to me ?
Has there been any discussion between the tradeoffs between getting, for
example, an LC III or a Proforma 450 ?
D. Scruggs Boulder Creek Fire Dept.
GTE Govt. Systems Boulder Creek Ca
Mountian View Ca
T. Kephart
scr...@gtewd.mtv.gtegsc.com writes:
> Apple Assistance Center ? Could the number be posted, or E-Mailed to me
?
> Has there been any discussion between the tradeoffs between getting, for
> example, an LC III or a Proforma 450 ?
That's Proform 450, and it's just a more professional case style...
Scott Leapman
> scr...@gtewd.mtv.gtegsc.com writes:
> > Apple Assistance Center ? Could the number be posted, or E-Mailed to me
> ?
> > Has there been any discussion between the tradeoffs between getting, for
> > example, an LC III or a Proforma 450 ?
> ^^^^^^^^
> That's Proform 450, and it's just a more professional case style...
No, that's Performa! The Performa's are Mac's targetted for retail sales at
stores like Sears and Montgomery Ward. Thery are essentially the same as their
non-retail analogues, but usually are bundled with some software, are sometimes
partially crippled on the motherboard, and usually come with a less expensive
monitor and/or modem.
Brian Bishop
: In article <1993May11....@gtewd.mtv.gtegsc.com> ,
It's 'Performa', and it's the same machine (electrically) along with a
software bundle. Check the difference in prices and decide if the software
(and having a real machine name instead of some initials :-) is worth it to
you.
--
Brian Bishop ... gau...@fnma.com <=- OR -=> br...@grebyn.com
Did you know desire's a terrible thing / it makes the world go blind
and did you know desire's a terrible thing / but I depend on mine - The Sundays
scr...@gtewd.mtv.gtegsc.com
> monitor and/or modem.
What is meant by "partially crippled" ? I seem to be getting conflicting
information.
Dave Scruggs Boulder Creek Fire Dept.
GTE Govt Systems Boulder Creek Ca.
Scott Leapman
> > No, that's Performa! The Performa's are Mac's targetted for retail sales at
> > stores like Sears and Montgomery Ward. Thery are essentially the same as their
> > non-retail analogues, but usually are bundled with some software, are sometimes
> > partially crippled on the motherboard, and usually come with a less expensive
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > monitor and/or modem.
>
> What is meant by "partially crippled" ? I seem to be getting conflicting
> information.
It might no longer apply, but I heard that (at least the early) Performas had a
motherboard that had either fewer simm sockets, no fpu, wasn't upgradable, etc.
For example, I think the Performa 600, with is essentially a IIvx, is not
upgradable to the Centris 650 as the IIvx is. Take the "partially crippled"
with a grain of salt. In general, though, Apple didn't just change the name
from LC III to Performa 450 and try to sell it for less. Something else must be
different. Be careful, but buy Mac!
Brian V. Hughes
>No, that's Performa! The Performa's are Mac's targetted for retail
>sales at stores like Sears and Montgomery Ward. Thery are essentially
>the same as their non-retail analogues, but usually are bundled with
>some software, are sometimes partially crippled on the motherboard, and
>usually come with a less expensive monitor and/or modem.
None of the Performa models that have direct Mac counterparts are
"crippled" in any way. They are physically identical to their Mac
counterparts. Now if you want to argue that some of those Mac models are
"crippled" that is a different story.
Van Garrett, Apple Computer (opinions are mine, not Apple's)
ha...@coos.dartmouth.edu writes:
> None of the Performa models that have direct Mac counterparts are
>"crippled" in any way. They are physically identical to their Mac
>counterparts. Now if you want to argue that some of those Mac models are
>"crippled" that is a different story.
are not crippled. There is a lot of disinformation from misinformed Apple
dealers trying to convince customers to buy an LCIII instead of a 450,
etc. I find this appalling. So, to set the record straight:
The systems on Performas are virtually identical to those on regular
Macs. Primary differences are 1) At Ease; 2) Launcher control panel which
a) offers onebutton access to programs a la At Ease withing the Finder,
b) layer hiding, where open but currently not in use programs windows are
hidden, and c) open and saves default to a Documents folder on teh
desktop; 3) desktop patterns are larger and more colorful but uneditable
from the General control panel (they can be edited using ResEdit); 4)
different System Enablers.
The hardware on teh machines is built to the same quality specs as our
regular line, and in every case except the 600 teh hardware is teh same
as teh regular line. In other words, a 400 is an LCII, a 450 is an LCIII.
The 600 lacks the cache and FPU of the VX, but is alike to the IIVX in
every other way.
Performa Support's number is 1-800-SOS-APPL, ext.555. 1-800-SOS-APPL is
teh number for toll-free support for all Macs, so don't be afraid to call
us. If you want to email questions, feel free to email garr...@apple.com
or ACPsupport on America Online.
Hope this helps clear up some things.
Van Garrett
garr...@apple.com
Opinions are mine not Apple's