CL: Movable Portals
Klur
Certain areas have "doors" that have to be passed through in order to get to
them. For example, Hatreds' Hollow is the "door" to the Outback, and Dred
Passage is the "door" to the Foothills and Dredwood. Part of the challenge is
to get past the "door". Part of the challenge on KI is how to get your party
to survive and get off successfully when there is no easy exit and fallens
cannot be easily moved off the island. The Cloud also has a "door" the mirror.
The mirror may be acting like the rain cloud once behaved for Dal when it was
first introduced or perhaps it is a puzzle to be solved with the reward of
gaining access either way it is the "door" for that area at this time (In the
past I did not clearly see the Mirror as one of these "doors" however after
seeing the discussion for me it is clear that it is one). Moving the portal
beyond the "doors" of these places upsets the risk/reward/challenge of the
area negatively, and therefore I am opposed to having them moved there. I have
stated very clearly I will do everything in my power to move the Portal from
any place where the portals are drastically impacting the Risk/Reward/Challenge
of an area, and where they are placed to avoid the natural hurdles of the
world.
So now people I'm sure are thinking. "Well if I can't use the portals to alter
the Risk/Rewards of areas to my advantage, what good are they?" I mean after
all, isn't this all about maximizing rank gain? ;)
Well I believe the portals can be used to allow us to interact more with each
other to create challenges for one another on interesting large scale levels.
With the addition of dueling items and this portal we have the ability to set
up some amazing and truly challenging events.
Let me expand on possible challenging events. These are some I thought of so
far. They could be adapted for groups of different circles:
Hide & Seek
Prepare by moving the portal to some location (for example, Dal underground).
First exile to return through the portal to town wins. This could be done with
or without dueling gloves; with or without teams.
Fastest Group
Put the portal in a place that has only one entry. (For example, myrm hive QC,
or Jade Noids 2nd chamber, depending on level of groups.) Group leaves town,
and goes to area. When group returns through the portal to town, the time
stops. Another group would try the same thing after allowing spawn time, and
the times could be compared.
Smallest Group
Same setup as Fastest Group except now measure group size. How many people
would it take to get to the portal and through it?
Challenge
Challenge a group to move the portal some place difficult.
Battle
Move the portal to some interesting place. Have 2 or more teams fight to
return it to a team's location. First team to get it to their location wins.
Recover the Portal (my personal favorite ;) )
Move the purple portal to some safe place beyond a "door." PM will happily
accept the invitation to then move the portal some place appropriately
difficult. So another group can accept the challenge of moving it back to town.
So with the above what might be some reasonable etiquette: Always leave the
green portal around Puddleby. Green seems to imply good so if those that use
the cloud always take green they should be relatively safe. Always return the
purple portal back to Puddleby when not being used in a challenge.
Opxe
Klur <kl...@poguemahone.org> wrote:
> The Portal issue to me is one of Risk/Reward/Challenge.
>
> Certain areas have "doors" that have to be passed through in order to get to
> them. For example, Hatreds' Hollow is the "door" to the Outback, and Dred
> Passage is the "door" to the Foothills and Dredwood. Part of the challenge
> is
> to get past the "door". Part of the challenge on KI is how to get your party
> to survive and get off successfully when there is no easy exit and fallens
> cannot be easily moved off the island. The Cloud also has a "door" the
> mirror.
>
> <portal game ideas>
>
> Recover the Portal (my personal favorite ;) )
> Move the purple portal to some safe place beyond a "door." PM will happily
> accept the invitation to then move the portal some place appropriately
> difficult. So another group can accept the challenge of moving it back to
> town.
>
> So with the above what might be some reasonable etiquette: Always leave the
> green portal around Puddleby. Green seems to imply good so if those that use
> the cloud always take green they should be relatively safe. Always return the
> purple portal back to Puddleby when not being used in a challenge.
Excellent!
--
Lord Opxe - http://opxe.pucks.org
- opxeN...@puddleNOSPAMby.info
- Member of Open Hands
Hidden
> Moving the portal beyond the "doors" of these places upsets the
> risk/reward/challenge of the area negatively, and therefore I am
> opposed to having them moved there. I have stated very clearly I will
> do everything in my power to move the Portal from any place where the
> portals are drastically impacting the Risk/Reward/Challenge of an
> area, and where they are placed to avoid the natural hurdles of the
> world.
I hereby demand that Pogue Mahone stop cheating and never go after an
Orga Teleportation Stone again.
Thanks!
--
HWC for Hidden <hid...@noDASHop.com> <http://www.oralse.cx/>
"Nothing says "Shut the Fuck Up" Like a baseball bat to the head."
Ian Ollmann
> The Portal issue to me is one of Risk/Reward/Challenge.
>
> seeing the discussion for me it is clear that it is one). Moving the portal
> beyond the "doors" of these places upsets the risk/reward/challenge of the
> area negatively, and therefore I am opposed to having them moved there. I have
> stated very clearly I will do everything in my power to move the Portal from
> any place where the portals are drastically impacting the Risk/Reward/Challenge
> of an area, and where they are placed to avoid the natural hurdles of the
> world.
There is nothing sacred about risk/reward ratios. Their current state is
merely a reflection of 1-2 GM's estimation of what the risk/reward is and
should be. There is error in both of those estimations, so given enough
areas, we may expect that the GMs best guesses are far enough removed from
our experience that the risk reward is out of balance for a few of them,
meaning nobody goes.
Let us also not forget time. The last time I was at the pitch caves, the
hunt took 7 hours. I don't know about you, but 7 hours of constant game
play is asking a bit much, especially to reach an area required for
further training. If you have a real life, you might never get to go. Is
our intention really to make sure that only the unemployed and idle rich
can ever open a PF over 110?
You know, sometimes you don't have to go to the meadow to buy a sunnystone.
Moving the portals to an area to reduce the risk or time expenditure opens
up certain places to visitation and fun that otherwise people wouldn't get
to go to very often. This is a good thing!
Ian
---------------------------------------------------
Ian Ollmann, Ph.D. ia...@cco.caltech.edu
---------------------------------------------------
Phelps
> The mirror may be acting like the rain cloud once behaved for Dal when it was
> first introduced or perhaps it is a puzzle to be solved with the reward of
> gaining access either way it is the "door" for that area at this time (In the
> past I did not clearly see the Mirror as one of these "doors" however after
> seeing the discussion for me it is clear that it is one). Moving the portal
> beyond the "doors" of these places upsets the risk/reward/challenge of the
> area negatively, and therefore I am opposed to having them moved there.
Gee, Klur, I know you are super smart and all, but don't you think
the hopper-GM thought about that, discussed it in committee, and then
decided to implement it anyway? Do you immediately discount that they
may have decided that on the whole, it was better for the game to be
able to bypass one door, and let the players "vote" on which one should
be bypassed to make the reward/risk balance better?
Fuck, don't you have some Game Wardening to do or something?
HWC for Phelps
obPhelpses of the World
obBalanceTaxSDB
--
"The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually
idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of
us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched.
He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to
despair." -- H.L. Mencken
Hidden
<Pine.SGI.4.40.030812...@helix2.caltech.edu>,
Ian Ollmann <ia...@cco.caltech.edu> wrote:
> Moving the portals to an area to reduce the risk or time expenditure opens
> up certain places to visitation and fun that otherwise people wouldn't get
> to go to very often. This is a good thing!
The counter agument is that the fun is in the journey. This is bullshit
after the first few times, but what do I know?
Lex
> alter
> the Risk/Rewards of areas to my advantage, what good are they?" I mean after
> all, isn't this all about maximizing rank gain? ;)
I don't think it's about rank gain, I think it's about giving older
players a way to bypass some of the more mundane hassles of CL. One
such hassle is HH - it's a hassle to have to get a group together to get
past it when you don't need a group that strong to do some thing beyond
it.
For older players, HH is a boring necessity. The risk/reward is
irrelevant. There's really no thrill anymore, even when we do it with a
very small crew, because we've done it so many times. There's
technically nothing wrong with the idea of a whole generation of
clanners not needing to go through HH to get to OOB. I know you've
based your entire CL existance on that one snell, but it's sometimes
necessary to pay less attention to "the newbie experience" and more
attention to the changing needs of the existing comunity. Yes, the
newbie experience is somewhat lessened, but no more so than being able
to fall anywhere within a few snells of town and be so easily rescued
that there's next to zero risk.
Sure, the risk/reward will change for some places. Is it unfair? No,
because it changes for everyone. Even if you don't choose to use the
portals you are not being excluded. You can argue that it's not fair
that you have had to get an HH group together to get to OOB so many
times, and newer people should have to do the same, but then Gurgi could
argue that it's not fair to have 4th circle fighters around to save 1st
circle fighters that fall in noids, because he didn't have the same
luxury.
Lex
Kojiro
Not blabbing everything you know is one thing. That's fine.
Actively being a dick is another. You are becoming tiresome.
I never thought I'd support easier KI access for rank whores, but even
that looks better than your crappy attitude. I will not have anyone
impose their opinion on me by force, not in a game that I pay money
for.
Go fuck yourself,
and die,
- Kojiro
Yor
Hidden <hid...@no-op.com> wrote:
> I hereby demand that Pogue Mahone stop cheating and never go after an
> Orga Teleportation Stone again.
Surely their use of an Orga Teleportation Stone is not cheating. Either
is their use of Ethereal Portal Stones when they use them to bypass
"doors" to get home from Pitch Noids quickly. If THEY are doing it how
could it be cheating???
I, however, am a HUGE cheater. I'm just sorry I've had to draw people
like Zorton and Robin into my nefarious Orga Teleportation Stone and
Ethereal Portal Stone cheating schemes. However, I must point out that
Zorton and Robin are NOT cheaters because I'm one and they are never at
the meetings! <g>
My name is Yor Bokunta and I'm a cheater. I need help!!! <g>
Yor
--
"Yor is a strapping caveman type who runs from adventure to
adventure, battling cool dinosaur puppets, desert zombie hordes,
sex hungry ape men and more." -Internet Movie Database
Yor
> Moving the portal
> beyond the "doors" of these places upsets the risk/reward/challenge of the
> area negatively, and therefore I am opposed to having them moved there. I
> have
> stated very clearly I will do everything in my power to move the Portal from
> any place where the portals are drastically impacting the
> Risk/Reward/Challenge
> of an area, and where they are placed to avoid the natural hurdles of the
> world.
If you want to play Portal Sheriff go right ahead. That in itself is
obviously a controversial issue but I think the real problem here is how
you've chosen to go about it.
In each case thus far (the KI and Grotto incidents) you've made it
clear you've acted because those portal locations messed with the
Risk/Reward/Challenge of those areas. The problem is in each case you
didn't need to do what you did to make your point and get what you want.
In the process, your actions primarily screwed the "average Joe",
Mid-Lower level exiles. You didn't strike a blow against any higher
level exiles or those who actually might be "worthy adversaries" to your
"challenge" because as far as I can tell, none of those types, including
me, care that much about the teleporters. So far, none of those types,
me included, have been involved in moving the teleporters anywhere. So
unfortunately the biggest victims of your actions have pretty much been
people, for one reason or another, incapable of dealing with the
consequences of your actions.
IMO, here's what you should have done:
Trainer's Grotto:
Instead of pushing into DP and "breaking" it you could have simply
pushed it back into Bones then somewhere into Snaggy or even the OC.
This wouldn't have taken much more time and effort but it would have
gotten you what you wanted and at the same time not screwed the "average
Joe", Mid-Lower level exiles who actually care about/use the teleporters
most (cloud access). At least there they would have had a reasonable
chance to retrieve it and bring it all the way back.
KI Hut:
This one is simple. You didn't need to do anything. Both teleporters
were already in that hut rendering them essentially worthless and
voiding the easy KI access which is what you want. Pushing one of them
into Umbrion's basement made an already bad situation alot worse.
Getting one or both of them off of KI from that hut requires a major
effort/time commitment as it is, one that is probably way over the
"average Joe", Mid-Lower level exiles' heads. But you unnecessarily
upped the difficulty of solving this problem for basically the wrong
target audience. If those that actually could do something about it
cared about the teleporters then that one still wouldn't be in UK but
alas it is.
You better start re-thinking your policing strategy and just who it is
affecting. I've heard the word "bullying" being tossed around. That's
sounding more and more accurate.
Michael
> So now people I'm sure are thinking. "Well if I can't use the portals to alter
> the Risk/Rewards of areas to my advantage, what good are they?" I mean after
> all, isn't this all about maximizing rank gain? ;)
Doesnt your fucking clan use Mystics and EP portal stones to get off KI?
In fact I know they do because I have seen them do it. Or is that
different somehow? Do these "barries" somehow not apply to you, even
though you think you are the mother fucking portal police?
Your bullshit excuses are so transparent. Its about you not wanting
other people to be able to do something that you can already do almost
at will.
People like you are the worst kind of fuck. There is a big difference
between being an asshole and activly trying to control and ruin other
peoples fun.
And to the rest of PM: This is why people say bad things about you.
Most of you are decent likable people. But not only do you hang out
with an asshole like Klur, he is seen as your leader (I dont give a fuck
if thats true, he is still seen as your leader). I cant belive that
some of you think its ok to try and make people depart.
Michael
Klur
Model A
Individual or group goes out and takes some risk to complete a challenge
and as a result that group/individual receives a reward.
Model B
Individual or group goes out and takes some risk to complete a challenge
and as a result all exiles receive a reward.
Both models are perfectly acceptable and both models exist and have been used
in the world on numerous occasions in numerous ways. However I would argue that
Model B is less than desirable because all though the individual/group should
feel good about their achievement the reward has been drastically cheapened
and in effect become not a reward but a given. All exiles that come after the
challenge is done will never know that some effort was made for them to get
the reward. Even those that may have known about the challenge may have
decided to not participate or help since they knew that regardless of their
efforts they would still receive the reward.
The movable portals when used by exiles in a way I'm apposed to fall into
Model B. Now the great thing about the movable portals is they have been
designed in a way that we the exiles can as we choose impact how they get
used with out directly impacting a exile. So it will be interesting to see
what philosophy around them will win out.
Let me also point out both the Strange Stone and The Ethereal Portal Stones
by them self are a Model A however those to can in my view be used in a less
than desirable when advertised and made available in a Model B fashion.
Ian Ollmann
> Risk/Challenge then Reward let me offer a couple models:
>
> Model A
> Individual or group goes out and takes some risk to complete a challenge
> and as a result that group/individual receives a reward.
>
> Model B
> Individual or group goes out and takes some risk to complete a challenge
> and as a result all exiles receive a reward.
>
> Both models are perfectly acceptable and both models exist and have been used
> in the world on numerous occasions in numerous ways. However I would argue that
> Model B is less than desirable because all though the individual/group should
> feel good about their achievement the reward has been drastically cheapened
> and in effect become not a reward but a given. All exiles that come after the
> challenge is done will never know that some effort was made for them to get
> the reward. Even those that may have known about the challenge may have
> decided to not participate or help since they knew that regardless of their
> efforts they would still receive the reward.
Perhaps you would be in favor of only allowing scientists in
pharmaceutical companies to use prescription drugs? Maybe only people who
work for a living should receive welfare? I know! Lets make all mothers
sole custodians and guardians for their children. After all, what did the
man do? Gosh darnit, children should teach themselves too! At the very
least, we all should have to our own Clanlord before we can play.
Personally, I think this is nuts. I don't insist that everyone invent
their own microwave before they can have their breakfast tea. Nor do I
even think they need to know why it works. It just does and their lives
are better for it. It turns out, Klur, that sharing of this sort is
exactly how progress is made, and why we live such nice, peaceful, long,
enjoyable lives and can afford to stand up and take ridiculous
unsupportable positions without worrying about getting a club to the head.
(...as long as Hidden isn't around.)
Not everyone needs to reinvent the wheel. Just some of us, it seems.
If you want to be a Luddite, go ahead. I think its great. Just don't
foist your religion off on the rest of us.
Ian
Helpful GM
<Pine.SGI.4.40.030814...@helix2.caltech.edu>,
Ian Ollmann <ia...@cco.caltech.edu> wrote:
> > Model B
> > Individual or group goes out and takes some risk to complete a challenge
> > and as a result all exiles receive a reward.
> >
> > Both models are perfectly acceptable and both models exist and have been
> > used
> > in the world on numerous occasions in numerous ways. However I would argue
> > that
> > Model B is less than desirable because all though the individual/group
> > should
> > feel good about their achievement the reward has been drastically cheapened
> > and in effect become not a reward but a given. All exiles that come after
> > the
> > challenge is done will never know that some effort was made for them to get
> > the reward. Even those that may have known about the challenge may have
> > decided to not participate or help since they knew that regardless of their
> > efforts they would still receive the reward.
[...]
> Personally, I think this is nuts. I don't insist that everyone invent
> their own microwave before they can have their breakfast tea.
[...]
> Not everyone needs to reinvent the wheel. Just some of us, it seems.
> If you want to be a Luddite, go ahead. I think its great. Just don't
> foist your religion off on the rest of us.
I don't think that's what Klur is saying. While I agree that not
everyone needs to reinvent the wheel, there's also something to be said
for earning the reward. I think the best answer lies in a combination
of what you both are saying.
For example, it's great that group-A might discover a new area and
devise a new technique to conquor it. It's great that they might keep
that info to themselves for a while, as they develop and evolve it and
reap the rewards of being smarter/faster/first/whatever as other teams
struggle to figure out how to break this <whatever.>
It's also great that, after a while, information leaks out, and people
share, and others benefit from the efforts of group-A (and group-B,
etc.) For example: It's great that your team can move the portals to
places my team could never get them to, and you thereby allow my team to
see a new an interesting area. It's also great if your team wants to
say "nah... if you can't get there on your own, we're not going to give
you the shortcut" -- since your team doesn't owe me that. Sure, it'd be
a nice gesture (or, perhaps not, as it might defeat my sense of
accomplishment), but it's hardly a big deal if you decide NOT to do it.
The B&C bonus is another example: in theory, we try to give the B&C to
everyone who helped out, erring generously on the side of "ok, close
enough" and perhaps giving the bonus to a few too many people who didn't
actually help much. We do NOT give the B&C to everyone on-line at the
time, saving off the names of those who were on bug logged off, so we
can give them their bonus later. In that regard, the folks who
participated get reward, a few who didn't participate very much get
reward, but we don't just go sprinking the reward all over the place.
---
I kind-a wonder what might happen if there were another pair of portals
-- how people would decide they needed to be "divided up"
Helpful "muhahahaaa..." GM
--
You have to remove stuff from my e-mail to reply, it's not difficult.
Everything here is my personal opinion, do with it what you will.
"[T]he idea of a game with people nicer than in CL makes me wanna puke."
-Michael
Lex
> everyone needs to reinvent the wheel, there's also something to be said
> for earning the reward. I think the best answer lies in a combination
> of what you both are saying.
Portals aside, in a one-universe game like CL, you really can't stop people
who technically didn't "earn" the reward from sharing in it. And "earn" is
a sketchy word anyway - it's entirely subject to personal opinion.
Many of us, myself included, have been a little bored and/or frustrated with
CL in the last few months. And the low active population is a big reason,
maybe the biggest reason. Now really isn't a good time to object the one
new thing that people are having fun with because it allows them to go
someplace they didn't "earn" the right to.
This isn't directed at anyone specific. I know there are a few clanners on
both sides of this.
Lex
Ian Ollmann
> The B&C bonus is another example: in theory, we try to give the B&C to
> everyone who helped out, erring generously on the side of "ok, close
> enough" and perhaps giving the bonus to a few too many people who didn't
> actually help much. We do NOT give the B&C to everyone on-line at the
> time, saving off the names of those who were on bug logged off, so we
> can give them their bonus later. In that regard, the folks who
> participated get reward, a few who didn't participate very much get
> reward, but we don't just go sprinking the reward all over the place.
I don't think B&C is a good analogy here. B&C is an in game device to
encourage hard rescues and to reward noble behavior. It is outside of
gameplay and in itself doesn't really contribute to fun much. Once you get
that reward, end of story. Nothing more to do with it. That is very
different than say, moving the teleporter portals so that one end is in on
noth. That would let people hunt there even if a mystic wasn't available
or the only mystic was say fallen on Noth. Whole new worlds open up for
some people.
The crux of Klurs argument is that by changing the face of the game
topology in some way that rewards everyone, whether they participated in
the change or not, ruins the reward. I totally disagree. People might
take it for granted, but many more people will reap the award. There is
nothing wrong with taking a reward for granted, especially if it opens
up new possibilities to you. What it does is move a rare privelege into
the area of the mainstream so that everyone can enjoy it. That will
broaden the experience for everyone.
Now how you interpret this is up to the individual. If you are an elitist
then you would see this as a disaster. Yet one more thing that separates
you from the mindless undulating throngs has fallen! If you are a mindless
undulating throng, you'd think it was pretty cool.
Keep in mind that not everyone is an explorer. I think Klur has lost touch
with that fact. If something is not common knowledge many (dare I say
most?) people will *never* go there. The risk of a depart or getting lost
is too great.
Personally, I feel that bringing the layman up to speed with the elite (or
reasonably close) has HUGE rewards. Heck! Universal literacy wasn't always
a fact. However, today we can all read and argue about this online.
Helpful GM
> The crux of Klurs argument is that by changing the face of the game
> topology in some way that rewards everyone, whether they participated in
> the change or not, ruins the reward.
I missed that part of his post. I think you may be overstating his
position.
In some instances, rewarding everyone, whether they participate or not,
cheapens the reward. This is not always the case. Still, even the most
hard-core strict-player would be hard pressed to suggest that only those
who 1st discovered the cloud and how to move the portals should be
allowed to use them, while everyone else had to "go find their own
thing."
Chum
> Personally, I feel that bringing the layman up to speed with the elite (or
> reasonably close) has HUGE rewards. Heck! Universal literacy wasn't always
> a fact. However, today we can all read and argue about this online.
And that's a benefit ... how? ;)
Chum "living proof that they'll let ANY idiot post on the usenet..."
Punkie
--
You have to remove your clothes if you want me to read your e-mail.
I will not, no matter how "good" the deal, ever purchase any product from
any company which gathers addresses from the usenet; period.
Kojiro
> The movable portals when used by exiles in a way I'm apposed to fall into
> Model B.
Yes, great. Everyone (well, most) understand the whole risk reward
thing. I even agree with you on that philosophy.
What you don't get is that it isn't your decision to make. You decide
things for yourself- nobody else.
Now, kindly crawl back in your hole and resume pulling the wings off
of flies or whatever the hell you do for fun.
- Kojiro
Michael
> Let me also point out both the Strange Stone and The Ethereal Portal Stones
> by them self are a Model A however those to can in my view be used in a less
> than desirable when advertised and made available in a Model B fashion.
Let me run this through the Bullshit Stripper 2000:
What Klur really means is "Since the group I hunt with has access to
mystics and portal stones, I think the movable portals are a bad thing
because other people (those not in PM) can use them to make an area
easier."
What you pulled was such a dick move that you cant even LIE to come up
with a good excuse for it.
Michael
Baff
>
> ...Whole new worlds open up for some people.
>
> ...People might
> take it for granted, but many more people will reap the award. There is
> nothing wrong with taking a reward for granted, especially if it opens
> up new possibilities to you. What it does is move a rare privelege into
> the area of the mainstream so that everyone can enjoy it. That will
> broaden the experience for everyone.
>
> Now how you interpret this is up to the individual. If you are an elitist
> then you would see this as a disaster. Yet one more thing that separates
> you from the mindless undulating throngs has fallen! If you are a mindless
> undulating throng, you'd think it was pretty cool.
>
> Keep in mind that not everyone is an explorer. I think Klur has lost touch
> with that fact. If something is not common knowledge many (dare I say
> most?) people will *never* go there. The risk of a depart or getting lost
> is too great.
You could change explorer to rank-whore and argue that everyone should be set
at an even 3000 ranks.
Would rank-whores like that? I will go out on a limb and say probably not.
They put in the work for their ranks and they would be justifiably upset if
the ranks were just given to everyone else for free.
Would non-rank-whores like it? They would probably love it for a few weeks,
then they would realize that they had actually been screwed (to The Wall).
Massive ranks are a reward for rank-whoring. Seeing places rarely seen is a
reward for explorering.
If everyone could get the hardest to earn rewards for minimal effort then
what incentive would there be to play CL?
Baff
Klur
of standing on anothers shoulder generally makes since, but be
careful do you really want Nuclear Bombs to be commodity items and
easy to use.
In a world of finite and scarce Challenges/Risks/Rewards the notion
of standing on anothers shoulder simply comes down to how quickly
will you toss the world aside out of lack of anything new or join the
ranks of those that complain about the growth rate, lack of rewards
etc etc etc.
Would it really be a good thing to hand each new exile maps of
everything, solutions to all puzzles, provide a continueous supply of
every item there is, instantly teach and show them how best to
conquer every area, give them a tour of every place that exists,
and let them choose how many ranks they start out with? All but the
last one of these I could probably do. But, even the last one I could push
you at a rate far beyond the average.
NightBird
<snip>
> Seeing places rarely seen is a reward for explorering.
> Baff
"places rarely seen" I agree with that.
however. Trainers grotto past HH and KI are NOT rarely seen.
when the portals were in those locations, all it was doing, IMO, was
allowing people with less time available to them to further explore
areas they could get to, but not further explore, due to time
constraints.
now, I could understand, if a group was formed to take the pitch cave,
and the teleporter was moved there. But COME ON!.
-NB
rhdennis
Klur <kl...@poguemahone.org> wrote:
>
> Would it really be a good thing to hand each new exile maps of
> everything, solutions to all puzzles, provide a continueous supply of
> every item there is, instantly teach and show them how best to
> conquer every area, give them a tour of every place that exists,
> and let them choose how many ranks they start out with? All but the
> last one of these I could probably do. But, even the last one I could push
> you at a rate far beyond the average.
I don't think its a matter of whether it is a "good" thing or not Klur.
I think its more a matter of "this is the way it is". CL has become what
it was intended ... a "commune". People believe they have are entitled
to all this information because someone else knows it; because its out
there. Similarly they believe everyone should have a sunstone, <insert
weapon here>, etc. You might as well give up this particular war you
know. You are heavily out numbered.
rhdennis
Lex
> everything, solutions to all puzzles, provide a continueous supply of
> every item there is, instantly teach and show them how best to
> conquer every area, give them a tour of every place that exists,
> and let them choose how many ranks they start out with?
straw man
Lex
Helpful GM
Night...@hotmail.com (NightBird) wrote:
> Baff <ba...@gemmary.JUNK.com> wrote in message news:<
> <snip>
> > Seeing places rarely seen is a reward for explorering.
> > Baff
> "places rarely seen" I agree with that.
> however. Trainers grotto past HH and KI are NOT rarely seen.
I've NEVER seen HH or anywhere past that (except as a GM ghosting over
exploration parties -- I mean as a player.)
I saw about 6" of KI before seeing it's beautiful skies while laying on
my back...
The fact that a few people see it whenever they want does not change the
fact that these places are "rarely seen" to the vast majority of
clanners.
Helpful "an alternate POV" GM
Drax
>
>
> I don't think its a matter of whether it is a "good" thing or not Klur.
> I think its more a matter of "this is the way it is". CL has become what
> it was intended ... a "commune". People believe they have are entitled
> to all this information because someone else knows it; because its out
> there. Similarly they believe everyone should have a sunstone, <insert
> weapon here>, etc. You might as well give up this particular war you
> know. You are heavily out numbered.
>
> rhdennis
Great point... and "the way it is," is that if it can be moved, it
probably will. Rationalizations for, or against, are just like pissing
in the wind.
Anyway, I think you ought to broaden your speech to include more than
just Klur, here... the fact is, bitching doesn't move portals.
-D
Ian Ollmann
> You could change explorer to rank-whore and argue that everyone should be set
> at an even 3000 ranks.
>
> Would rank-whores like that? I will go out on a limb and say probably not.
> They put in the work for their ranks and they would be justifiably upset if
> the ranks were just given to everyone else for free.
>
> Would non-rank-whores like it? They would probably love it for a few weeks,
> then they would realize that they had actually been screwed (to The Wall).
>
> Massive ranks are a reward for rank-whoring. Seeing places rarely seen is a
> reward for explorering.
>
> If everyone could get the hardest to earn rewards for minimal effort then
> what incentive would there be to play CL?
The difference is that the reward is temporary and reversible. We have one
pair of teleporters. You aren't going to be using them to go 10 different
places the same day. Nor can you rely on them to take you the same place
every day. I expect that every now and then someone will take the job
of tour guide and move the portal to some new place.
Think of it as advertising for the explorer biz and an opportinity for
other people to share in the fun temporarily.
Ian Ollmann
> In a world of finite and scarce Challenges/Risks/Rewards the notion
> of standing on anothers shoulder simply comes down to how quickly
> will you toss the world aside out of lack of anything new or join the
> ranks of those that complain about the growth rate, lack of rewards
> etc etc etc.
>
> Would it really be a good thing to hand each new exile maps of
> everything, solutions to all puzzles, provide a continueous supply of
> every item there is, instantly teach and show them how best to
> conquer every area, give them a tour of every place that exists,
> and let them choose how many ranks they start out with? All but the
> last one of these I could probably do. But, even the last one I could push
> you at a rate far beyond the average.
Nope, and nobody is proposing that.
We already have people complaining that there is nothing to do and no
rewards, and yet, they could be exploring. Curiously, they aren't! I'd
like to. I think it would be great fun. I've never been invited to
participate in one of these things with PM, even though I asked to come
along. So, if I want to do these things I have to organize my own group.
The problem is that the barrier to exploration is too high. It takes a lot
of time, there is very little possibility of rescue if things go wrong,
and you need a lot of very specialized skills (FM, senior PF, high quality
healers, etc.) to even think about doing it seriously. I don't have these
things. So, I don't explore. I feel that I represent 95% of exiles or
more.
Mostly what we are asking however is that people who don't like the
portals leave them alone. If you don't want to use them, that's fine. If
other people need them to do certain things in the game that they would
not otherwise get to do, then that should be fine too.
Lex
1) people who don't want to do very much work and just want everything shown
to them - free ranks, free stuff, etc.
2) people who don't mind doing a fair amount of work, like to see a
reasonable reward, but also don't mind being helped or getting things for
free.
3) people who prefer to not take any handouts, explore/earn everything for
themselves, but may accept help on occasion.
4) people who will only do things for themselves, never accept help, and
expect the same of others.
I'm pretty sure almost everyone who plays falls into (2) or (3). Klur is
almost definitely a (4), which is fine. What bothers me is he is trying to
describe everyone in (2) as if they were part of (1), or possibly doesn't
see a difference between the two groups, and is using this indisctinction to
justify his policy on the teleporters.
I do a fair amount of helping other people in CL, so I don't mind getting
help when I can, and given the low amount of time I have been able to devote
to CL in the past few months, the portals have potential for allowing me to
do something fun in a short amount of time. It's one thing to move the
portals to someplace you'd rather have access to, but to move them just
because in your opinion people "shouldn't" hunt someplace or haven't
"earned" it, is vindictive BS. I don't think any of the newbies who got a
free sunstone from the DP group earned them, but I don't go around trying to
steal them.
Lex
Michael
> In article <761311b1.03081...@posting.google.com>,
> Night...@hotmail.com (NightBird) wrote:
>
> > Baff <ba...@gemmary.JUNK.com> wrote in message news:<
> > <snip>
> > > Seeing places rarely seen is a reward for explorering.
> > > Baff
>
> > "places rarely seen" I agree with that.
> > however. Trainers grotto past HH and KI are NOT rarely seen.
>
> I've NEVER seen HH or anywhere past that (except as a GM ghosting over
> exploration parties -- I mean as a player.)
>
> I saw about 6" of KI before seeing it's beautiful skies while laying on
> my back...
>
> The fact that a few people see it whenever they want does not change the
> fact that these places are "rarely seen" to the vast majority of
> clanners.
Given how long you have been around, library ranks alone should make
your characters strong enough for FHs runs. If you arnt getting asked
to go, you are either doing something wrong, dont really want to go that
bad because you arnt asking the right people, or are seen as a total
asshole/moron/snert and not allowed to go.
KI might be above you still if you trained like an idiot and are a
fighter, but if you have a rip-vet healers and have any idea how to
click them you should be able to last on KI.
Michael
Michael
> Massive ranks are a reward for rank-whoring. Seeing places rarely seen is a
> reward for explorering.
If you dont want to use the portals to make things easier, dont. Other
people being able to go places they normally wouldnt be able to isnt
your call to make.
So you had to depart 100 times to make it to OOB, no one gives a fuck.
You could have done it a lot easier if you were willing to work and
share with the rest of the world. But you werent, you wanted it all to
yourself, and are still trying to keep some places like that by trying
to control the portals.
Michael
Helpful GM
wrote:
> Here is my scale of risk/reward preference:
[scale of 1-4, snipped]
> I'm pretty sure almost everyone who plays falls into (2) or (3). Klur is
> almost definitely a (4), which is fine. What bothers me is he is trying to
> describe everyone in (2) as if they were part of (1), or possibly doesn't
> see a difference between the two groups
Fun science you can do at home:
1 2 c d 3 4
+----------------------A-------+-------B----------------------+
Liberal moderate conservative
* Where do you fall on this scale?
* Where do most other people fall, in respect to you?
Bonus question:
* Where do most other people think you fall on this scale?
Here's what happens:
Nearly everyone thinks they fall between A & B. Notable exceptions for
people who are proud to "be weird" or extreme and like to brag about it
-- ignore them for now ;)
Among those who find themselves between A & B, a very large percentage
of them find that most other people are either (a) like them, (b)
between 1 & 2 or (c) between 3 & 4. that is, very few people know
anyone who they think is around "c" or "d" on the continuum.
Here's the fun part: nearly everyone ELSE feels that the people who
think they're between A & B are at the far end from where they are
(i.e., if you think most people are between 1 & 2, then most people
think you're between 3 & 4, and vice versa.)
Example: I think of myself as hovering near B, maybe a bit on the
inside, as I have a few liberal tendancies. I tend to think that 92%+
of the rest of the population is over there at "1" or beyond. Guess
what? Most of the rest of the population sees me at over there at "4"
or beyond -- surprize!
"Who cares?!", you say? Klur probably thinks he's reasonable and
moderate -- perhaps just to the left of "B", and thinks most other
clanners are "way too liberal". You, being quite liberal from Klur's
POV, see him as "exceptionally conservative." It's all relative, and
based on the idea that most people consider themselves smart,
reasonable, and "able to see both sides" in a balanced way, which means
they see others as falling left or right of their POV (except those who
agree with us, which, of course, we tend to view as smart, reasonable
and well-balanced people :)
Helpful "why are there no other conservatives over here, with me?!" GM ;)
Yor
Klur <kl...@poguemahone.org> wrote:
> Risk/Challenge then Reward etc....
This is in response to all of your recent posts on this matter.
In a nutshell, the way I interpret what you are saying is "Doing
things my way is the only way and any other way (even if legal by game
standards) is wrong or cheating and thus less worthy or deserving of
whatever 'reward' is in question".
Your way being:
Patiently recruit a dedicated group of people, no matter how long it
takes, to overcome the various challenges or "choke points" using
teamwork, chemistry, and well-crafted tactics and strategies. This
dedicated group of people preferrably need to be willing to depart as
many times as it takes to succeed and commit large chunks of time on a
regular, consistent basis to do so.
I think this is a noble and even ideal way to approach this and
admittedly you've done an impressive job over the years with it. BUT...
you need to realize it's not the ONLY way to do things. There are other
ways to do things that perhaps aren't as glamourous or impressive as
your way but every bit as deserving or even as ingenious as your way.
Your way may not always (or ever) be available to others so people tend
to look for other ways to accomplish the same goals... in many cases
other ways that they can handle/recruit for/have time for and are every
bit as legal and worthy as yours.
Examples:
(1) Get a mystic with the appropriate training (training they've
invested a great deal of ranks into) a strange stone. Then assemble a
one-time group with the objective of getting said mystic past DP. Once
finally successful (and it may take many tries/attempts) said mystic
marks the ground with his/her stone rewarding the group (or anybody the
mystic chooses to offer his/her services to) with easier access to the
FH. Of coarse said mystic has to be willing to keep the stone equipped
(so the hard-earned mark is not lost) for a reasonable amount of time to
make it worthwhile. Plus, obviously said mystic has to be around and
have the time for this "reward" to be used. So while the reward has
it's limitations it is still very nice and every bit as earned and
worthy as your way. Just in a different manner.
(2) Getting a group together to take on the epic challenge of dragging
one teleporter successfully to a place like the FH. In addition to the
group that earned it, everybody might reap the reward from this, but
that doesn't diminish the efforts or somehow make it less worthy than
your way. Another thing to point out here (as with the first example) is
everybody has a choice whether they wish to take advantage of these
rewards without having participated in earning it or if they don't
approve of it as you do. You can just stick to doing it your way. =)
Now there are other examples but these two are enough to make my
point. Obviously you don't approve of either but the difference between
the two is one you can control the other you can't (but we all know you
would if you could).
I don't expect you'll change your thinking but maybe you should stop
trying to herd everybody into your way of doing things because there's
nothing wrong or less worthy in other legal alternatives and just stick
to your own ways and mind your own business.
I love the teleporers idea and even some of the conflict it has caused
but your obsessive attempts to control them and pass judgement on any
alternative methods (teleporters or otherwise) that others come up with
to deal with various challenges is absurd and getting old really fast.
Phelps
> Would it really be a good thing to hand each new exile maps of
> everything,
Not everything. Most things, though.
> solutions to all puzzles,
No.
> provide a continueous supply of
> every item there is,
No.
> instantly teach and show them how best to
> conquer every area,
Yes.
> give them a tour of every place that exists,
Yes.
> and let them choose how many ranks they start out with?
No.
Any other questions?
HWC for Phelps
obPhelpses of the World
obBalanceTaxSDB
--
"The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually
idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of
us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched.
He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to
despair." -- H.L. Mencken
Hidden
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> "Who cares?!", you say? Klur probably thinks he's reasonable and
> moderate -- perhaps just to the left of "B", and thinks most other
> clanners are "way too liberal". You, being quite liberal from Klur's
> POV, see him as "exceptionally conservative." It's all relative, and
> based on the idea that most people consider themselves smart,
> reasonable, and "able to see both sides" in a balanced way, which means
> they see others as falling left or right of their POV (except those who
> agree with us, which, of course, we tend to view as smart, reasonable
> and well-balanced people :)
Here's the thing: Nobody sees Klur as 1 or 2. NOBODY. That means he's 3
or 4. If he were A-B, then at least a few people (the people who
honestly belong at 3 and 4) would see him as a 1 or 2. Some people (also
3/4s) see him as A-B, but nobody sees them as 1 or 2, either.
--
HWC for Hidden <hid...@noDASHop.com> <http://www.oralse.cx/>
"Nothing says "Shut the Fuck Up" Like a baseball bat to the head."
Hidden
dr...@risingclaw.com (Drax) wrote:
> Anyway, I think you ought to broaden your speech to include more than
> just Klur, here... the fact is, bitching doesn't move portals
Bitching doesn't, bitches do.
NightBird
> Would it really be a good thing to hand each new exile maps of
> everything,
Go out to your car, or wherever else you keep any of your road maps,
or any other map you didnt make yourself, and kindly burn them.
> solutions to all puzzles
nope, but a lil nudge in the right direction is ok.
> provide a continueous supply of every item there is
Some people get off on trying to police what others can do . Others
may enjoy providing for, and helping others.
> instantly teach and show them how best to conquer every area
Holding their hand and doing everything for them, no. Offering
suggestions, or small answers if asked, why the hell not.
> give them a tour of every place that exists.
Some places can't be toured until you get enough ranks. (even if its
just histia/higgy to survive) What's wrong with showing someone
something new? not everyone has the time/ambition to be the "jackass"
ahem, "explorer" you are.
> and let them choose how many ranks they start out with?
Dont quite know how you cooked this one up, but no.
Step down off of your "high horse" , crawl back into the hole you came
out from and kindly die.
-NB
Helpful GM
Night...@hotmail.com (NightBird) wrote:
> Somejackass <kl...@poguemahone.org> wrote in message
> news:<slrnbjp3t2....@red.jenika.com>...
>
> > Would it really be a good thing to hand each new exile maps of
> > everything,
>
> Go out to your car, or wherever else you keep any of your road maps,
> or any other map you didnt make yourself, and kindly burn them.
Road maps in your car are there to "do work." In a game of discovery,
detailed "maps of everything" are destructive. Sort of like sitting
next to someone in a theatre who keeps saying "ooo, this next part is
great -- I love when he punches the guy in the nose...", etc.
No one objects to hints & help -- heck, that's "cooperative
interaction"! Detailed "here is the secret cave" maps posted to public
forums (a) spoil the fun and (b) automate and completely remove the
cooperation and human-interaction -- hence eroding the game. *THAT*'s
the thing we object to. "Here, let me show you around" is A Good Thing!
"I'm busy, check out www.AllCLMapsAllTheTime.com" is A Bad Thing. See
the difference?
> > solutions to all puzzles
>
> nope, but a lil nudge in the right direction is ok.
Agreed. Although, personally, I prefer socratic hints. In fact, I no
longer ask for hints, because so many people can't help but just blurt
out the answer, even if I say "don't tell me, just give me a really bad
hint that I might figure out, someday..."
> > provide a continueous supply of every item there is
>
> Some people get off on trying to police what others can do . Others
> may enjoy providing for, and helping others.
Again -- it's good that some people enjoy sharing their abundant wealth
with others. The problem, of course, is that it erodes the experience.
But, as you say, we can't stop you...
> > instantly teach and show them how best to conquer every area
>
> Holding their hand and doing everything for them, no. Offering
> suggestions, or small answers if asked, why the hell not.
Agreed, see above. Funny that you feel this way about some things
(puzzles & conquering), but seem to feel the opposite about others (maps
and item-gifts.) <shrug> whatever...
> > give them a tour of every place that exists.
>
> Some places can't be toured until you get enough ranks. (even if its
> just histia/higgy to survive) What's wrong with showing someone
> something new? not everyone has the time/ambition to be the "jackass"
> ahem, "explorer" you are.
"Explorer" != "Jackass" -- just FYI.
> > and let them choose how many ranks they start out with?
> Dont quite know how you cooked this one up, but no.
It just sort of follows. Plus, many people would much prefer to start
as a 4th circle whatever rather than "have to beat a million rats to
death" -- it's not an unreasonable extention of the rest...
> Step down off of your "high horse" , crawl back into the hole you came
> out from and kindly die.
Heh, you & your friends get to state your POV, and try to enforce it on
others ("if you don't like it, you can fuck off & die"), but he's not
entitled to do the same?!
Helpful "high horse, indeed!" GM
aka Keeper of The One True Way ;)
Hidden
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> > > solutions to all puzzles
> >
> > nope, but a lil nudge in the right direction is ok.
>
> Agreed. Although, personally, I prefer socratic hints. In fact, I no
> longer ask for hints, because so many people can't help but just blurt
> out the answer, even if I say "don't tell me, just give me a really bad
> hint that I might figure out, someday..."
The number of lights is a square integer lower than 9.
> > Some places can't be toured until you get enough ranks. (even if its
> > just histia/higgy to survive) What's wrong with showing someone
> > something new? not everyone has the time/ambition to be the "jackass"
> > ahem, "explorer" you are.
>
> "Explorer" != "Jackass" -- just FYI.
Depends on your point of view. If you're a Socializer, no. If you're an
Achiever, yes.
> > > and let them choose how many ranks they start out with?
>
> > Dont quite know how you cooked this one up, but no.
>
> It just sort of follows. Plus, many people would much prefer to start
> as a 4th circle whatever rather than "have to beat a million rats to
> death" -- it's not an unreasonable extention of the rest...
The problem is that games like CL offer very few tracks of advancement.
You can advance in ranks, or in coins. Not much else provided by the
game framework (I don't count social advancement, since that can happen
out of game, as well). If there were more different ways to improve
yourself, then starting off with 1k ranks to spend as you like (assuming
the game was balanced for this) wouldn't be so unreasonable.
> aka Keeper of The One True Way ;)
I never woulda figured you for a Lisp hacker.
Klur
What I offered was a reasonable approximation of standing on the shoulders of
PM/PMF. I'm pleased that it appears it is somewhat agreed that if PM/PMF did
this it would be viewed as a less than desirable thing.
I further hope this helps clarify why PM/PMF does not do such things.
But, now to get back to the real issue I have done my best to clearly state my
point of view. I also have demonstrated I will take action as out lined.
But, now it is time to organize. PM/PMF can not make my ideas a reality with
out a lot of others to play with. So what I'm looking to do is find other
individuals and clans that are generally in agreement with the concepts. If
you generally agree with them please get in contact with me. Their is much to
be done and the more of us that participate the less work any single
individual will have to do to experience the most fun.
I truly do want to see the portals used. In fact I want them to be in such
high demand for the types of activities I have identified and those that you
all dream up that adding more will make since.
Please don't be worried about contacting me I'm known for keeping secrets I
will not reveal anyones identity unless they approve of it.
Helpful GM
Hidden <hid...@no-op.com> wrote:
> In article <HelpfulGM-8C696...@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
> Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
>
> > > > solutions to all puzzles
> > >
> > > nope, but a lil nudge in the right direction is ok.
> >
> > Agreed. Although, personally, I prefer socratic hints. In fact, I no
> > longer ask for hints, because so many people can't help but just blurt
> > out the answer, even if I say "don't tell me, just give me a really bad
> > hint that I might figure out, someday..."
>
> The number of lights is a square integer lower than 9.
To one who understands it, that's "blurting out the answer." The kind
of hints I prefer (and, since so few are capable of giving them, I don't
ask for) would be more along the lines of "Each light represents a
member of some set -- what do you suppose that is?" (assuming that there
are world-clues, no matter how obscure, that lead to the answer. i.e.,
if each light-colour was a base makeup colour for people with
complexions categorized as one of the 4 seasons...)
> > aka Keeper of The One True Way ;)
> I never woulda figured you for a Lisp hacker.
What else *is* there? ;)
((Helpful) ("and (socks (doesn't count))") (GM)
Jeff Lambert
kl...@poguemahone.org wrote on 8/16/03 3:19 AM:
> "Straw Man" I'm flattered.
>
(gonna try and snip this a bit, was a bit long)
I'm...I...I'm...me...I'm...me...I...I...me...I'm.
(you get the gist of it)
Thanks for the offer Klur, but no thanks.
Boris
NightBird
<snip>
> great -- I love when he punches the guy in the nose...", etc.
That's a bad example. CL is not a movie, or rather a tee-vee esque
game as you put it. Maps are a good thing, the people don't like them
don't have to use them.
> "Here, let me show you around" is A Good Thing! "I'm busy, check out
> www.AllCLMapsAllTheTime.com" is A Bad Thing. See the difference?
yes, I realize there is a difference ;p However, maps aren't bad,
neither is a site that has tons of them
(http://www.free-conversant.com/eyesofpuddleby/maps is GREAT!). Alot
of people put in alot of hard work to make those maps, and if they are
willing to share them with the community, they should be used.
> > > provide a continueous supply of every item there is
> >
> > Some people get off on trying to police what others can do . Others
> > may enjoy providing for, and helping others.
>
> Again -- it's good that some people enjoy sharing their abundant wealth
> with others. The problem, of course, is that it erodes the experience.
> But, as you say, we can't stop you...
I never said I give hand outs left and right, I can't keep that kind
of spending up, along with my own needs. I only said that some people
enjoy different things. However, I know some exiles who would rather
help someone else get a ss then sleep in the expensive lib.
> > > instantly teach and show them how best to conquer every area
> >
> > Holding their hand and doing everything for them, no. Offering
> > suggestions, or small answers if asked, why the hell not.
>
> Agreed, see above. Funny that you feel this way about some things
> (puzzles & conquering), but seem to feel the opposite about others (maps
> and item-gifts.) <shrug> whatever...
Ok, newsflash. there is a "grey area." Believe it or not, some people
can feel one way about one topic, and another way about another, and
sometimes, they can be somewhere in the middle. Funny concept.
> > Step down off of your "high horse" , crawl back into the hole you came
> > out from and kindly die.
>
> Heh, you & your friends get to state your POV, and try to enforce it on
> others ("if you don't like it, you can fuck off & die"), but he's not
> entitled to do the same?!
Did I say "fuck off and die"? No, don't quote me on something I didn't
say. oh wait, no
, nevermind. After reading Klur's most recent post today, here it
comes "Klur, fuck off and die" there, now you can quote me on it.
And of course he's entitled to his POV, everyone is, but I'm not
trying to enforce mine, I'm not running around saying "goddamnit,
those portals should be used for something good, and I'm gonna make
sure of it!" He on the other hand, *IS* forcing his POV/ideals on
others by mucking up the portals. "See the difference?"
> Helpful "high horse, indeed!" GM
> aka Keeper of The One True Way ;)
. . .
-NB
rhdennis
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
>
> Helpful "why are there no other conservatives over here, with me?!" GM ;)
>
Unclean!!!
aa runs screaming.
<okay, couldn't resist...really I'm probably very close to HGM in most
ideology. I fall most definitely on the Libertarian/Anarchist spot
whereever that is>
rhdennis
rhdennis
> I never woulda figured you for a Lisp hacker.
Lots of Idiotic Stupid Parenthesis.... gah, Lisp is such an annoying
language!
rhdennis
Helpful GM
> > > > provide a continueous supply of every item there is
> > >
> > > Some people get off on trying to police what others can do . Others
> > > may enjoy providing for, and helping others.
> >
> > Again -- it's good that some people enjoy sharing their abundant wealth
> > with others. The problem, of course, is that it erodes the experience.
> > But, as you say, we can't stop you...
>
> I never said I give hand outs left and right
But if someone LIKES to hand out gifts left & right...
Like, if someone is a total coin-whore, with 100k in the bank, and they
want to buy new weapons, SSs, sheilds and give 1000c to every newbie
they meet...
Your tone seems to indicate that you think that's ok, if they want to do
that.
All I'm saying is, while the generosity is nice, they're actually doing
the newbie an "un-favour", by drastically shortening the game for them.
> > > Step down off of your "high horse" , crawl back into the hole you came
> > > out from and kindly die.
> >
> > Heh, you & your friends get to state your POV, and try to enforce it on
> > others ("if you don't like it, you can fuck off & die"), but he's not
> > entitled to do the same?!
> Did I say "fuck off and die"? No, don't quote me on something I didn't
> say.
Your words (which I quoted) were "crawl back into the hole you came out
from and kindly die." I'd say that qualifies as "close enough" --
Hidden, care to call this one?
> And of course he's entitled to his POV, everyone is, but I'm not
> trying to enforce mine, I'm not running around saying "goddamnit,
> those portals should be used for something good, and I'm gonna make
> sure of it!"
I read your post to say "anyone who doesn't think that Maps are ok,
gifts are ok, hints are ok and who tries to hide the portals from other
people (i.e., those who do not share my POV on these subjects) and who
evangelize their POV to others should crawl back into the whole they
came out of and die." ("Fuck off and die" was a literary embellishment.
I think you'll agree that it doesn't change the meaning or content.)
So, maybe that's not what you meant, but it's sure how it read to me...
Helpful "build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on
fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life" GM
Hidden
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> > Did I say "fuck off and die"? No, don't quote me on something I didn't
> > say.
>
> Your words (which I quoted) were "crawl back into the hole you came out
> from and kindly die." I'd say that qualifies as "close enough" --
> Hidden, care to call this one?
Hmm... it is indeed a tough call. I think I'll have to go with NightBird
on this one, though. While similar in sematic meaning, "fuck off and
die" is a crude insult, whereas "crawl back [...] and kindly die" can be
said with a sardonic, mocking tone. When it comes down to it, having
class is one of the most important factors in deriding your foes.
Hidden
> > Agreed, see above. Funny that you feel this way about some things
> > (puzzles & conquering), but seem to feel the opposite about others (maps
> > and item-gifts.) <shrug> whatever...
>
> Ok, newsflash. there is a "grey area." Believe it or not, some people
> can feel one way about one topic, and another way about another, and
> sometimes, they can be somewhere in the middle. Funny concept.
We tend to call these people "hypocrites."
Hidden
<rhdennis-A4D648...@newssvr24-ext.news.prodigy.com>,
rhdennis <rhde...@guess.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Parenthesis (especially with Emacs) are much nicer than semicolons, two
kinds of brackets, a billion different "order of operation" rules, and
pointer arithmetic. ;)
One day, someone asked me why my preferred language is Lisp. I sat down
and started to explain to him,
"One day, someone asked me why my preferred language is Lisp..."
Phelps
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> Like, if someone is a total coin-whore, with 100k in the bank, and they
> want to buy new weapons, SSs, sheilds and give 1000c to every newbie
> they meet...
>
> Your tone seems to indicate that you think that's ok, if they want to do
> that.
>
> All I'm saying is, while the generosity is nice, they're actually doing
> the newbie an "un-favour", by drastically shortening the game for them.
This assumes that a long game is inherently better.
Phelps
Klur <kl...@poguemahone.org> wrote:
> But, now it is time to organize. PM/PMF can not make my ideas a reality with
> out a lot of others to play with. So what I'm looking to do is find other
> individuals and clans that are generally in agreement with the concepts.
I thought "other individuals and clans that are generally in
agreement" had already been shortened to "PMF"?
Sabbit
> The Portal issue to me is one of Risk/Reward/Challenge.
There's no need to quote anything else.
It isn't for YOU to decide Klur. Every post you have made in this
string means nothing no matter how valid the points. YOU don't get to
make the rules.
What really ticks me off is here you are, a member of a clan that gets
to do some of the most fun things in CL, actively ruining other
exile's fun who are not as lucky.
What really REALLY ticks me off is the majority of the time I've seen
you out of the lib recently you've been fucking with the portals.
Don't you have something better to do than ruining other people's fun?
Jesus fucking christ no wonder so many people hate PM.
-Sabbit
(And how are other CL additions such as orga stones and eps stones any
less of a way to "cheat")
Hidden
thecomp...@yahoo.com (Sabbit) wrote:
> YOU don't get to make the rules.
To be fair, nor do you.
Taryn
use the teleportals discovered on the dark cloud is different than how
one or how we *can* use them. Some people think they should be used
to provider faster and more convenient access to areas they like to
hunt. Other people think that using them to avoid the difficulties in
reaching or returning from such areas is a "cheat," because the
resulting reward is insufficiently "earned."
Both of these viewpoints are just that: subjective interpretations.
Neither is inherently right or wrong because the there is no inherent
right or wrong. The universe simply is. Right or wrong is something
we decide, as individuals, as a group, and/or as a community.
Furthermore, it is also part of our reality that the stronger often
impose their view as to what is right or wrong on the weaker. Isn't
that why most of us are exiled here in the first place? And despite
strident dissent, those who held the orga stones traded them to the
Brions. And now the strongest exiles are vying for what they want for
the placement of the teleportals.
I believe that with power comes responsibility. And I'm glad to see
that there seems tentative agreement to leave the green teleportal in
Falinea's garden as a better exit from the cloud than jumping off, so
that the strongest exiles are merely vying for the location of the
purple teleportal. While I recognize that I'm part of the weaker
class, and so have no hope of directly relocating that teleportal, I
neverthless have an interest in its locations, and hope by my
reasoning to influence those of you of the stronger class.
I prefer to live in a more cooperative society. I believe that we can
accomplish greater things by working together, by making use of what
each other has learned, discovered, or built. If each of us had to
reinvent the boat, there would be alot of unseaworthy boats, and we'd
have made much less progress exploring and taming the nearby isles.
Or, for a historical example, if those of my people who discovered new
methods of metallurgy and armor-piercing arrows had chosen to keep it
to themselves for their own profit, instead of sharing the discovery,
my people would have lost the so-called "Second Unification" war.
Sharing helps us all.
A policy of "rewards must be earned" is inherently ill-defined. Taken
to an extreme, one could argue that no one should use maps generated
by anyone else; that all pathfinding short-cuts should be avoided
because they are "cheats;" that people entering any area for the first
time should never receive advice, assistance, or leadership from those
who've been there before; and one should never make use of objects
that one was given or stole or bought -- like sunstones, ore, keys,
orgastones, or even the skins we "steal" from the creatures we
unnecessarily kill. Clearly, the extreme is ridiculous, but then
where does one draw the line?
In my own case, I don't use the maps of others. I do this not only
because I enjoy the challenge of discovery, but also because I want to
develop skills of exploration. The first generation of exiles
necessarily developed these skills because so little was known, and
much was discoverable. And while the strongest exiles continue to
push our boundaries, I feel it's important that some of us at each
generation develop the same skills, by imposing such or similar
limitations on ourselves. But not everyone needs to do this; other
people will want to develop other skills, and we don't have time to
become supergood at everything in our lives.
On the other paw, I admit I learned the way through the marsh to
savannah, and many other ways to places, by following others (usually
to a rescue), or even sometimes by asking directions (always for a
rescue). Had I been strict in not travelling to places whose way I
had not learned myself, I would have healed and helped far fewer
people during the time I've been exiled; I would have been a far less
effective healer. And I claim that if we all never shared with
others, we all would be less effective, and poorer as a whole.
I think it's important to remember the bigger picture. While my life
here is better than my life on Shan Deral, I still have family there.
Family that I cannot visit, who may not even know whether I'm dead or
alive. Family who still suffers from the rule of Mobius and his
Inquisitors. This isn't just a game we're playing. If we don't share
with each other and work together, not only will we not accomplish
very much, but by our very lives we show we don't care about others.
And I care.
As for uses of the teleportals, the two I've most appreciated were:
Falinea's garden as a safer exit from the cloud, and the Trainers'
Grotto, which temporarily allowed many exiles a chance to study with
those trainers without having to wait for a sufficiently strong group
to expend the time and effort to take them there. [Although I love
helping with this.] I favor using the purple portal for exploration.
For example, it is my understanding that what is known as Orga Camp 4
can only be reached during a full moon (and only with the aid of a
full mystic). What if the purple teleporter were moved there during a
full moon? Would OC4 be reachable at other times, and would it be
different? Could this perhaps open up more discoveries?
The teleportals can be powerfully useful if used wisely, but they are
not a panacea. They have limitations: there are only two, their
destination is where someone has gone before, and their ends are not
fixed so their current location is inherently uncertain. As children,
didn't we learn to take turns?
Taryn.
Warren J. Dew
"Explorer" != "Jackass" -- just FYI.
Hidden:
Depends on your point of view. If you're a Socializer,
no. If you're an Achiever, yes.
Klur isn't an Explorer in the Bartle Socializer/Achiever/Killer/Explorer
system, anyway. Bartle Explorers enjoy discussing and sharing their findings,
because they are trying to increase the sum total of knowledge, not just their
own. Publishing a map, for example, is a classic Explorer thing to do.
In Bartle terms Klur is more of an Achiever who views Clan Lord as a puzzle
game, with achievement measured in puzzles solved - where puzzles can include
how to get to new areas.
Most Clan Lord GMs seem actively hostile to Bartle Explorers, and as a result,
they tend to stay hidden.
Warren J. Dew
Powderhouse Software
Helpful GM
psych...@aol.com (Warren J. Dew) wrote:
> Most Clan Lord GMs seem actively hostile to Bartle Explorers
?!
Or do you just mean that we discourage folks from giving away too much
information? I don't see that as "actively hostile", from which I infer
"we are out to get them", only that we ask them to curtail the
info-spread to those who really want it which, btw, is not exactly the
same set of people who ask for it or who think they want it.
And before anyone gets too irate at the thought that I might be telling
you what you want -- I'm not. What I *AM* saying is: a lot of people
don't know what they want, and they THINK they want things handed to
them on a silver platter but, in the long run, they are far less happy
with this than they would have been had they been nudged to
self-sufficiency. You (the person considering being irate that I should
say such a thing) may or may not be one of those people, I don't know.
Phelps
> What really ticks me off is here you are, a member of a clan that gets
> to do some of the most fun things in CL, actively ruining other
> exile's fun who are not as lucky.
I have to take issue with this. There is no "luck" involved in it.
PM has what they have as a result of the choices they have made. Anyone
who is willing to pay the price they have can reap the results they have
gotten.
Hidden
tar...@attbi.com (Taryn) wrote:
> For example, it is my understanding that what is known as Orga Camp 4
> can only be reached during a full moon (and only with the aid of a
> full mystic). What if the purple teleporter were moved there during a
> full moon? Would OC4 be reachable at other times, and would it be
> different? Could this perhaps open up more discoveries?
OC4 is open 24/7. It is only *USEFUL* during a full moon. I highly doubt
the portals will make any places that aren't normally accessible so.
Hidden
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> > Most Clan Lord GMs seem actively hostile to Bartle Explorers
>
> Or do you just mean that we discourage folks from giving away too much
> information? I don't see that as "actively hostile", from which I infer
> "we are out to get them", only that we ask them to curtail the
> info-spread to those who really want it which, btw, is not exactly the
> same set of people who ask for it or who think they want it.
Looking at Bartle's definition of the explorer, I think things will
become a bit more clear.
ii) Explorers delight in having the game expose its internal
machinations to them. They try progressively esoteric actions in
wild, out-of-the-way places, looking for interesting features (ie.
bugs) and figuring out how things work. Scoring points may be
necessary to enter some next phase of exploration, but it's tedious,
and anyone with half a brain can do it. Killing is quicker, and
might be a constructive exercise in its own right, but it causes too
much hassle in the long run if the deceased return to seek
retribution. Socialising can be informative as a source of new ideas
to try out, but most of what people say is irrelevant or old hat.
The real fun comes only from discovery, and making the most complete
set of maps in existence.
Figuring out "how things work" in CL is actively discouraged, via
obfuscation of the game's forumlae and constant insistance that we
"don't need to know" and that it would "make the game less fun" (are the
forumlas really that weak and easily exploited?). What's an even greater
problem, is that the very design of CL passively discourages both
Explorers and Killers. Killers have very few ways to nonconsentually
effect other players, and as a non-killer that's fine with me. What I
object to, as an Explorer (93% E 66% A 26% K 13% S), is the lack of ways
in which we can meaningfully effect or divine information from the world
around us. Exploring in CL consists of grabbing as many gate-opening
ranks (PF and Se'el) as you can and going out and bumping into things
until you find your way to the next area. Very little thought involved
at all, because when there are clues (and that's very seldom), they're
so obscure that I have never heard of anyone finding them. I can only
point to one REALLY well designed questy things in CL. FMOCR, and that's
limited to once a week, as well as benefitting only an obscure subset of
the population. Whenever we get background information on the world,
it's ALWAYS via a GM character, because there are few to nil meaningful
ways we can examine objects/areas or read books. The CL world may have a
past, present, and future that you've developed, but it will remain
forever obscured to the players.
Lex
> > to do some of the most fun things in CL, actively ruining other
> > exile's fun who are not as lucky.
>
> I have to take issue with this. There is no "luck" involved in it.
> PM has what they have as a result of the choices they have made. Anyone
> who is willing to pay the price they have can reap the results they have
> gotten.
What you say is true, except that for some people clanning time is a big
issue. If you are "lucky" enough to be able to play CL 4 hours at a time
and 16+ hours a week you have avenues open to you that aren't open to people
who can only come on for 45 minutes at a time. If you can only clan for 45
minutes at a time FH expeditions and KI hunts are not realisticly possible.
Lex
Helpful GM
Hidden <hid...@no-op.com> wrote:
> OC4 is open 24/7. It is only *USEFUL* during a full moon.
...In one sense. It's certainly a fertile hunting ground at other times.
> I highly doubt
> the portals will make any places that aren't normally accessible so.
For example, it would not be unreasonable to guess that there is strong
anti-portal magic in jail...
Warren J. Dew
> Most Clan Lord GMs seem actively hostile to Bartle Explorers
?!
What Hidden said.
Maeght
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> In article <hidden-E93E76....@news.stanford.edu>,
> Hidden <hid...@no-op.com> wrote:
> > I highly doubt
> > the portals will make any places that aren't normally accessible so.
>
> For example, it would not be unreasonable to guess that there is strong
> anti-portal magic in jail...
With of course an in-character explanation that wouldn't strike 99/100
people as a blantant rationalization.
- Maeght
Michael
> In article <hidden-E93E76....@news.stanford.edu>,
> Hidden <hid...@no-op.com> wrote:
>
> > OC4 is open 24/7. It is only *USEFUL* during a full moon.
>
> ...In one sense. It's certainly a fertile hunting ground at other times.
For who? Most parties with enough power to take the place slaughter
just about everything there (and I do slaughter it all).
Given the swarms of shit there, most parties have to be overpowered
compared to the level of the critters.
Michael
Helpful GM
Maeght <awes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > For example, it would not be unreasonable to guess that there is strong
> > anti-portal magic in jail...
>
> With of course an in-character explanation that wouldn't strike 99/100
> people as a blantant rationalization.
(a) It's magic. There's nothing I can say after this that you can't
claim "rationalization". Since you're predisposed to attempt to find
fault (creating it, if necessary) with anything I say, it's sort of
pointless, isn't it?
(b) The same geniuses who thought that jail would be a good idea in the
first place (Bellafae, Haengemie, et al) thought for a moment and
decided that putting folks into jail then allowing them to teleport out
would be sub-optimal, so they employed powerful magic to prevent such
things. It's not terribly more tricky than the [magical] technology
that makes trying to depart out of jail not-so-smart.
Come to think of it -- teleporting out of jail should probably be
allowed, with the same effect as departing :)
---
Quick, name two things in CL that aren't "blatant rationalizations."
Maeght
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> In article <awessels-26F672...@news.supernews.com>,
> Maeght <awes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > With of course an in-character explanation that wouldn't strike 99/100
> > people as a blantant rationalization.
>
> (a) It's magic. There's nothing I can say after this that you can't
> claim "rationalization". Since you're predisposed to attempt to find
> fault (creating it, if necessary) with anything I say, it's sort of
> pointless, isn't it?
It's magic doesn't explain anything. Or rather, it explains *anything*.
If several GMs came forward and said that "powerful magics" where part
of the starting conditions and were intended from day 1, I'd accept it.
I don't create fault. People naturally attempt to find patterns in the
world and the one that many of us have built from what we can see
doesn't match the explanations we're given. It would take a clinically
profound level of SOD to accept this stuff.
> (b) The same geniuses who thought that jail would be a good idea in the
> first place (Bellafae, Haengemie, et al) thought for a moment and
> decided that putting folks into jail then allowing them to teleport out
> would be sub-optimal, so they employed powerful magic to prevent such
> things. It's not terribly more tricky than the [magical] technology
> that makes trying to depart out of jail not-so-smart.
I've never tried to depart from jail. What in the CL world tells me
that that attempt is "not-smart"?
What in the CL world tells me that the NPCs in the CL world have access
to such powers AND tells me that such powers have real affects that
aren't just the result of SOD?
- Maeght
Hidden
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> Quick, name two things in CL that aren't "blatant rationalizations."
Off the top of my head, the ocean currents and the ice rink on KI being
slippery. I could think of at least a thousand more. Things that ARE
blatant rationalizations are things that are clearly the way they are
for an OOC reason, but have an IC reason painted over them whenever
somebody asks.
Basically:
OOC Cause -> IC Effect == Blatant Rationalization
* Cause: If teleporting worked from jail, that would be an obvious
exploit
* Effect: Strong magic prevents you from exiting jail.
OOC Cause -> OOC Effect == Game Mechanic
* Cause: Simple mechanism needed for interaction with critters
* Effect: Bumping into a critter causes you to swing.
IC Cause -> IC Effect == Cool In-game Thingamajigger
* Cause: Brion's scrolls are made of sylvan skin
* Effect: Sylvans appalled. Everyone else looking for the factory to
provide more funding.
IC Cause -> OOC Effect ==
* Cause: Ice is a very low traction surface
* Effect: Ice Rink is slippery
Helpful GM
Hidden <hid...@no-op.com> wrote:
> IC Cause -> OOC Effect ==
> * Cause: Ice is a very low traction surface
> * Effect: Ice Rink is slippery
I was following right up until this one.
Isn't the fact that ice is low traction OOC? That is, RL (non-CL,
no-characters involved, out-of-character) ice is slippery.
Isn't the KI ice rink IC? That is, all of KI (or DI, or Puddleby) is
IC, right? Including buildings, puddles, rivers, ice-rinks, etc., right?
Anyway, I sort-a get what you mean, I guess I just don't see "it needs
to be that way to make the game fun, but we did our best to make it fit
in a consistant and IC way with the rest of the world" to be a bad
thing, as some do.
Helpful GM
Maeght <awes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> I've never tried to depart from jail. What in the CL world tells me
> that that attempt is "not-smart"?
The fact that you are sentenced to spend time in jail. Common sense
would tell you that your sentencers would not look kindly on escape
attempts (much as RL prison guards do not.) Certainly one's treatment
after a 1st escape attempt might lead one to believe that a 2nd would be
a bad idea.
> What in the CL world tells me that the NPCs in the CL world have access
> to such powers AND tells me that such powers have real affects that
> aren't just the result of SOD?
What's SOD?
To anyone who finds themselves in CL-jail, Bellafae's "access to powers"
should alreay be quite evident and demonstrated.
Hidden
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> Isn't the fact that ice is low traction OOC? That is, RL (non-CL,
> no-characters involved, out-of-character) ice is slippery.
Yes, and this is a fact that the IC world shares.
> Isn't the KI ice rink IC? That is, all of KI (or DI, or Puddleby) is
> IC, right? Including buildings, puddles, rivers, ice-rinks, etc., right?
The KI ice-rink being slippery is experienced via an OOC mechanic of
your character having extremely low decelleration.
--
HWC for Hidden <hid...@noDASHop.com> <http://www.oralse.cx/>
"A good friend is the one that posts your bail. Your best
friend is the one sitting next to you in the cell, saying
'DAMN that was cool.'"
Hidden
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> > What in the CL world tells me that the NPCs in the CL world have access
> > to such powers AND tells me that such powers have real affects that
> > aren't just the result of SOD?
>
> What's SOD?
Suspension of disbelief. It's HARD to believe that NPCs (who are,
according to some GMs who will go nameless, "people too") have access to
all these magical powers that exiles have never heard of and cannot
practice. Plus, whenever we treat these IC powers as IC powers instead
of OOC game mechanics, we get yelled at by the court nazis for abuse of
the system.
--
HWC for Hidden <hid...@noDASHop.com> <http://www.oralse.cx/>
Helpful GM
Hidden <hid...@no-op.com> wrote:
> It's HARD to believe that NPCs (who are,
> according to some GMs who will go nameless, "people too") have access to
> all these magical powers that exiles have never heard of and cannot
> practice.
?! You mean like: why can't players dub an area "no teleport", or why
can't players throw lightning bolts?
I think you know the answers, in CL terms -- we've been over it 100x,
and you've been pretty good about remembering such things when someone
new comes in and asks.
FWIW, in Helpful Lord, if a properly trained NPC can do it, a properly
trained player can, too. More accurately, skills & abilities are
created as player-abilities first (with whatever limitations we feel are
appropriate), then the same rules apply to NPCs.
Of course, if you've chosen to be a Sylvan instead of a Minotaur, or a
half-fiend instead of a Drow, you may get certain bonuses/maluses
because of that. But the same rules for NPCs & PCs, dammit!
(Sorry, <rantModeOff> ;) CL does a pretty good job of trying to do
this, btw -- but a few shortcuts are taken in the name of trying to make
things more interesting*. As we have observed, not without some cost in
frustration. Still, it's a give & take -- PCs being able to be dragons
will come with its own set of problems...
---
*It's also often an experiement to see how a particular ability will
pan-out. Some player-abilities are the result of monster-first
experiments...
Hidden
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> I think you know the answers, in CL terms -- we've been over it 100x,
> and you've been pretty good about remembering such things when someone
> new comes in and asks.
I know the OOC reasons, I'm not stupid. The IC reasons that players
can't throw lightning bolts, however, have not been sufficiently
explained. Futhermore, those IC reasons would only be covers for the OOC
reasons, which are the driving factor.
Helpful GM
Hidden <hid...@no-op.com> wrote:
> I know the OOC reasons, I'm not stupid. The IC reasons that players
> can't throw lightning bolts, however, have not been sufficiently
> explained. Futhermore, those IC reasons would only be covers for the OOC
> reasons, which are the driving factor.
Puddlebians haven't discovered that kind of magic, yet.
As you say, a rather thin cover for the OOC reasons -- but there it is.
We'd be happy to hear suggestions for how to make a more IC reasoning.
Then again, maybe someday, some Puddlebian will discover how the magic
works...
Helpful "seems unlikely, though" GM
Hidden
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> > I know the OOC reasons, I'm not stupid. The IC reasons that players
> > can't throw lightning bolts, however, have not been sufficiently
> > explained. Futhermore, those IC reasons would only be covers for the OOC
> > reasons, which are the driving factor.
>
> Puddlebians haven't discovered that kind of magic, yet.
There seem to be several types of magic in widespread use within the
city limits that players don't have access to. Unless NPCs aren't really
people too, and don't follow the same rules we do, then it's still bull.
Acceptable bull for good reasons, but still bull.
Maeght
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> In article <awessels-A5C750...@news.supernews.com>,
> Maeght <awes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > I've never tried to depart from jail. What in the CL world tells me
> > that that attempt is "not-smart"?
>
> The fact that you are sentenced to spend time in jail. Common sense
> would tell you that your sentencers would not look kindly on escape
> attempts (much as RL prison guards do not.) Certainly one's treatment
> after a 1st escape attempt might lead one to believe that a 2nd would be
> a bad idea.
Common sense DOESN'T tell me what powers are available to secure the
jail.
> > What in the CL world tells me that the NPCs in the CL world have access
> > to such powers AND tells me that such powers have real affects that
> > aren't just the result of SOD?
>
> What's SOD?
Suspension of Disbelief. Probably should have lowercased the "O".
> To anyone who finds themselves in CL-jail, Bellafae's "access to powers"
> should alreay be quite evident and demonstrated.
How do I know it is "powers" thing and not an RP thing?
- Maeght
Maeght
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> In article <hidden-C18A4B....@news.stanford.edu>,
> Hidden <hid...@no-op.com> wrote:
>
> > I know the OOC reasons, I'm not stupid. The IC reasons that players
> > can't throw lightning bolts, however, have not been sufficiently
> > explained. Futhermore, those IC reasons would only be covers for the OOC
> > reasons, which are the driving factor.
>
> Puddlebians haven't discovered that kind of magic, yet.
>
> As you say, a rather thin cover for the OOC reasons -- but there it is.
> We'd be happy to hear suggestions for how to make a more IC reasoning.
Thank you for confirming that these explanations are in fact
rationalizations.
> Then again, maybe someday, some Puddlebian will discover how the magic
> works...
Yep. Right after that glass of water starts boiling on your coffee
table.
- Maeght
Helpful GM
Hidden <hid...@no-op.com> wrote:
> There seem to be several types of magic in widespread use within the
> city limits that players don't have access to. Unless NPCs aren't really
> people too, and don't follow the same rules we do, then it's still bull.
> Acceptable bull for good reasons, but still bull.
What kinds of magic to NPCs practice in the city limits that you don't
have access to?
(I'm sure some exist, I just can't think of any, off hand...)
Helpful GM
Maeght <awes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > To anyone who finds themselves in CL-jail, Bellafae's "access to powers"
> > should alreay be quite evident and demonstrated.
> How do I know it is "powers" thing and not an RP thing?
In an RPG, what's the difference?
If you've already been teleported to court, the shoo-ed off to jail,
whether or not you "played along"... is that not "evident and
demonstrated"? I mean, I know "HGM said it, so I must disagree" -- but
let's be realistic, here, eh? :)
Helpful "2+2=4, most of the time" GM
Hidden
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> In article <hidden-0A90E7....@news.stanford.edu>,
> Hidden <hid...@no-op.com> wrote:
> > There seem to be several types of magic in widespread use within the
> > city limits that players don't have access to. Unless NPCs aren't really
> > people too, and don't follow the same rules we do, then it's still bull.
> > Acceptable bull for good reasons, but still bull.
>
> What kinds of magic to NPCs practice in the city limits that you don't
> have access to?
Long distance summoning, teleportation through barriers, hyper-speed
/pushing, casting magical seals (such as the one in jail), passing items
around without /buy and /sell, etc. etc. etc.
Helpful GM
Hidden <hid...@no-op.com> wrote:
[HGM]
> > What kinds of magic to NPCs practice in the city limits that you don't
> > have access to?
> Long distance summoning, teleportation through barriers
Jail-related. Exceptions for an exceptional tool noted.
> hyper-speed /pushing
?! Oh, /pulling? The S'tple sisters? Hmmm, do you think they'd be
better with the player-delay to /pull?
> casting magical seals (such as the one in jail)
Exception for an exceptional tool noted.
> passing items around without /buy and /sell
Who does this? And that's not really "unknown magic" but rather just
another interface (which makes much more sense) to do something that you
can do -- right? Or are you talking about something other than Witkus
selling you a sword?
> etc. etc. etc.
Ok, so not counting jail (and, if you care to suggest better ways to do
jail stuff, I'm all ears), are there any?
---
FWIW, I once considered having Bellafae "handcuff" (chain?) you and drag
you from here to there to get you where you were going, but the
technology was weak at the time, and it seemed a lot of effort when the
teleport scheme works. besides, then players would want handcuffs (or
un-slippable chains that worked on the standing), and there's a problem,
too.
Again, I'm all ears to improvements, though... :)
Hidden
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> In article <hidden-D2A591....@news.stanford.edu>,
> Hidden <hid...@no-op.com> wrote:
>
> [HGM]
> > > What kinds of magic to NPCs practice in the city limits that you don't
> > > have access to?
>
> > Long distance summoning, teleportation through barriers
>
> Jail-related. Exceptions for an exceptional tool noted.
And this is what's called "blatant rationalization." NPCs aren't people
too because they have all these "exceptional" powers.
> > hyper-speed /pushing
>
> ?! Oh, /pulling? The S'tple sisters? Hmmm, do you think they'd be
> better with the player-delay to /pull?
Sorry, yeah, I meant /pulling. They wouldn't be BETTER, just more
realistic.
> Again, I'm all ears to improvements, though... :)
No changes are needed to the game, just the propaganda.
Maeght
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> In article <awessels-6F5A08...@news.supernews.com>,
> Maeght <awes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > How do I know it is "powers" thing and not an RP thing?
>
> In an RPG, what's the difference?
Are you fucking serious? In an RPG it is the WHOLE DAMN DIFFERENCE.
RPGs are not about getting the players to believe your bullshit. They
are about creating a consistent world where the players are actors. In
the best ones, the players don't just take on roles, but actually shape
the world significantly FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW.
> If you've already been teleported to court, the shoo-ed off to jail,
> whether or not you "played along"... is that not "evident and
> demonstrated"? I mean, I know "HGM said it, so I must disagree" -- but
> let's be realistic, here, eh? :)
I'll readily admit that I don't think of the court as teleporting
people. I think of it as a meanwhile elsewhere episode. I'm spending
all my current SoD on thinking of Champions as fighter-leaders that know
how to strike telling blows and NOT backstabbers.
> Helpful "2+2=4, most of the time" GM
So does 2-1+1-3+6-1-2+2. And of course this is a far more accurate
model of the situation.
You're just incapable of removing the GM filter. This is a sucky disad
for a GM character.
- Maeght
Merlisk
Klur <kl...@poguemahone.org> wrote:
> Risk/Challenge then Reward let me offer a couple models:
>
> Model A
> Individual or group goes out and takes some risk to complete a challenge
> and as a result that group/individual receives a reward.
>
> Model B
> Individual or group goes out and takes some risk to complete a challenge
> and as a result all exiles receive a reward.
Model C
We ignore you until you get tired of this game and go away. We then
move the portals somewhere that the majority of Puddleby wants.
--
Merlisk
http://www.sundragonclan.com/merlisk/
Phelps
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> What kinds of magic to NPCs practice in the city limits that you don't
> have access to?
Denial of areas (Puck's, Healer Hall)
Critter creation (tests)
Instant Healing (tests)
Ore refining
Clothes dying? (not sure if tailors can do this on their own since
I'm not one)
Jersey lending
Stat detection (circle rooms, Pucks) [can mysfits do this yet?]
HWC for Phelps
obPhelpses of the World
obBalanceTaxSDB
(And I'm not arguing against any of these -- I just think all people
should be able to do them, not just NPC Not-quite-people)
--
"The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually
idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of
us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched.
He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to
despair." -- H.L. Mencken
Helpful GM
Phelps <phe...@donotremove.net> wrote:
> In article <HelpfulGM-49A6D...@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
> Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
>
> > What kinds of magic to NPCs practice in the city limits that you don't
> > have access to?
> (And I'm not arguing against any of these -- I just think all people
> should be able to do them, not just NPC Not-quite-people)
> Denial of areas (Puck's, Healer Hall)
PCs don't own real estate in Clan Lord. People who own real estate get
to control who can come in and out.
To the extent that PCs can RENT real estate, they get to decide who can
come in and out. (Right? Or are no "guests" allowed in the clan-hall?
Well, certainly you can do this in the meeting room -- that's what it's
for.)
> Critter creation (tests)
Of course, critters aren't "created", they're "loosed from their cages."
So, you want PC ability to cage and later release critters? Could be
interesting...
I wonder if we need subdual weapons for that :)
> Instant Healing (tests)
PCs can do this. A highly enough trained healer can completely heal
from fallen a sufficiently lower-trained PC in a single frame. That's
how NPCs do it...
> Ore refining
On the list.
> Clothes dying?
On the list.
> Jersey lending
Shirt lending you can do -- what you can't do is enforce getting it
back. Hmmm, the technology seems to be there, I wonder if there's any
reason this can't be "on the list." I'll check.
> Stat detection (circle rooms, Pucks) [can mysfits do this yet?]
A properly trained PC can do this (yes, the training is available, in
game, now, without GMs, and players have trained it.)
Helpful GM
Maeght <awes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article <HelpfulGM-27DC1...@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
> Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <awessels-6F5A08...@news.supernews.com>,
> > Maeght <awes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > How do I know it is "powers" thing and not an RP thing?
> > In an RPG, what's the difference?
> Are you fucking serious? In an RPG it is the WHOLE DAMN DIFFERENCE.
> RPGs are not about getting the players to believe your bullshit.
You're frothing, Maeght. Slow down, read what you wrote, then read my
question -- it's not unreasonable. I don't know you, and I don't know
what you're saying -- I only know your words posted here, and they're
unclear.
In the context of Bellafae's ability to teleport people from here to
there, I suggested that her "powers should be evident as demonstrated",
and you asked "how can [you] [tell the difference between] 'powers' and
'an RP thing'?"
I suggested "it's the same thing". That is, Bellafae's "powers" *ARE*
an RP thing, with the exception that it's "non-consentual RP", in that
she can enforce her RP on you. In an RPG, robots with blue names that
are run by the computers don't *REALLY* role-play -- they *ARE THERE* as
part of the world. Any powers they appear to have, they're not just
pretending and others go along with it -- they really have them.
If you meant something else, I'll gladly hear that concern and discuss
it with you -- but don't get abusive just because I answered the thing
you asked.
> You're just incapable of removing the GM filter.
I have no GM filter. I have to think about CL stuff both as a player
and as a GM (and also as a disinterested 3rd party -- but I do that for
fun, not because I have to.) You're incapable of removing the "HGM is a
dolt" filter, which makes rational conversation with you difficult.
Taryn
> In article <HelpfulGM-49A6D...@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
> Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
>
> > What kinds of magic to NPCs practice in the city limits that you don't
> > have access to?
>
The conjuration of prizes for slot machines in the gambling hall.
Taryn.
Azriel
> What kinds of magic to NPCs practice in the city limits that you don't
> have access to?
>
That annoyingly absentminded storage locker lady (Storenna?) can /yell
a LOT faster than exiles can yell back to her that she is trying to
bring out the wrong darned thing (again). Magic, or access to better
cough drops? She is amusing the first time, but a blasted pain
forever afterward, mainly because of the exile yell delay. I'd pay
twice as much for storage to have her stop wasting my time due to her
forgetfulness. It took me almost 15 min to have her retrieve 8 ores
for me the other day. And wouldn't you know, with only a couple of
other things back there, she goes through the list of all the other
things before finding any ore, every time! Doh. On the plus side, I
found out that she accepts all manner of profanity as a "no" answer to
her questions.
I'm also a bit annoyed that the brewery did not have to raise beer
prices to account for the cost of barrels after the woodworking shop
opened, while exile brewers (who had it good using free KI barrels for
good while, I'll admit) now have to factor in that extra expense.
Makes it tough to compete on price now. What cooper supplies them?
Azriel
Sutai
Azri...@lycos.com (Azriel) wrote:
> Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote in message
> news:<HelpfulGM-49A6D...@sea-read.news.verio.net>...
>
> > What kinds of magic to NPCs practice in the city limits that you don't
> > have access to?
> >
>
> That annoyingly absentminded storage locker lady (Storenna?) can /yell
> a LOT faster than exiles can yell back to her that she is trying to
> bring out the wrong darned thing (again). Magic, or access to better
> cough drops? She is amusing the first time, but a blasted pain
HGM.. this is a calling for you to give exiles the ability to train to
yell faster in exchange for rarely being able to select the item they
want to.
In all seriousness, though... who cares? I can't think of any game where
the players are on a level playing field with the program. The program
must compensate for the fact that people are smart, and could easily
outwit any program. Therefore it cheats a bit. Why argue about it?
M. Bison is CH34TinG11!!
Manx
>Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote in message news:<HelpfulGM-49A6D...@sea-read.news.verio.net>...
>
>
>
>>What kinds of magic to NPCs practice in the city limits that you don't
>>have access to?
>>
>>
>>
>
>That annoyingly absentminded storage locker lady (Storenna?) can /yell
>a LOT faster than exiles can yell back to her that she is trying to
>bring out the wrong darned thing (again). Magic, or access to better
>cough drops? She is amusing the first time, but a blasted pain
>forever afterward, mainly because of the exile yell delay. I'd pay
>twice as much for storage to have her stop wasting my time due to her
>forgetfulness.
>
She not only has the vocal chords of a town cat, but the
hearing of a lyth bat! That girl has spent so much time in
her cave, she can here people speaking normally or even
whispering out in the lobby.
Manx
--
If you need to reach me, I'm at a smoke-free address.
"In America, we get to write the script of our own lives." -Dinesh D'souza
Maeght
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> In article <awessels-F2CFC7...@news.supernews.com>,
> Maeght <awes...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > Are you fucking serious? In an RPG it is the WHOLE DAMN DIFFERENCE.
> > RPGs are not about getting the players to believe your bullshit.
>
> You're frothing, Maeght. Slow down, read what you wrote, then read my
> question -- it's not unreasonable. I don't know you, and I don't know
> what you're saying -- I only know your words posted here, and they're
> unclear.
Yes, I'm frothing. You suggest that the motivations and/or explanations
of the powers behind NPCs aren't important to the context of the RPG.
You have a strong hand in influencing the setting where I spend a dozen
hours a week. This concerns me greatly.
There is a certain GM philosphy or style illustrated by the following
situation:
A group of characters wanders the adventuring area arrogantly abusing
the locals and generally acting in an obnoxious way. One day a powerful
NPC comes up to the characters, beats them all soundly and then tells
them to behavior in a more acceptable fashion.
In one GMing style, that NPC came from somewhere and has a history. The
encounter makes sense in the context of the milieu. In another style,
the NPC pops up because the GM reasons that it is appropriate to the
current character situation.
It is very important for me to believe the former is in effect.
> In the context of Bellafae's ability to teleport people from here to
> there, I suggested that her "powers should be evident as demonstrated",
> and you asked "how can [you] [tell the difference between] 'powers' and
> 'an RP thing'?"
> I suggested "it's the same thing". That is, Bellafae's "powers" *ARE*
> an RP thing, with the exception that it's "non-consentual RP", in that
> she can enforce her RP on you. In an RPG, robots with blue names that
> are run by the computers don't *REALLY* role-play -- they *ARE THERE* as
> part of the world. Any powers they appear to have, they're not just
> pretending and others go along with it -- they really have them.
I don't assume Bellafae teleports me into the courtroom any more than
Kahn teleports me into a jail cell. I'm probably wrong about this, but
I assume that such actions are simply changes of scene in the storyline.
There is no overall story I'm aware of that tells me that most town NPCs
are endowed with supernatural powers. This POV requires me to come up
with a mundane explanation.
The inconsistencies HAVE to pop out somewhere. Mine requires that me to
explain sudden departures from areas around the land. The "Bellafae
teleports em" explanation requires people to figure out why giants walk
the land. I'd rather assume that I'm not a bug walking around the feet
of titans walking the earth.
> If you meant something else, I'll gladly hear that concern and discuss
> it with you -- but don't get abusive just because I answered the thing
> you asked.
I wasn't abusive. I used expletives to get your attention. Unless you
think the "bullshit" comment was abusive. In which case, you need
thicker skin. :-)
> > You're just incapable of removing the GM filter.
>
> I have no GM filter. I have to think about CL stuff both as a player
> and as a GM (and also as a disinterested 3rd party -- but I do that for
> fun, not because I have to.) You're incapable of removing the "HGM is a
> dolt" filter, which makes rational conversation with you difficult.
I've never said you were dolt nor suggested you were stupid.
You do have a GM filter. I don't argue that I don't have an analogous
filter, but I *do* adjust for it by doing a reality check with other
people. Compensating for such filters is a skill that can be practiced,
but only by attempting to do so. Step one of course is admitting its
existence.
Rational conversation with me is not difficult, as evidenced by numbers
of individuals successfully "translating" my comments to you.
The fact that you think you could ever think about CL stuff as a
"disinterested 3rd party" speaks volumes about that filter.
- Maeght
Haze
> That annoyingly absentminded storage locker lady (Storenna?) can /yell
> a LOT faster than exiles can yell back to her that she is trying to
> bring out the wrong darned thing (again). Magic, or access to better
> cough drops? She is amusing the first time, but a blasted pain
> forever afterward, mainly because of the exile yell delay. I'd pay
> twice as much for storage to have her stop wasting my time due to her
> forgetfulness.
WormTounge pointed out to me that you don't actually have to yell back
at her -- you can just say "no" and "yes" in a normal, speedy tone of
voice (I think... my memory is bad. maybe this was something else.)
Haze
PS. Sutai wrote:
> M. Bison is CH34TinG11!!
LOL
Michael
> She not only has the vocal chords of a town cat, but the
> hearing of a lyth bat! That girl has spent so much time in
> her cave, she can here people speaking normally or even
> whispering out in the lobby.
>
> Manx
Since bats hunt and navigate by sound, dont they have REALLY good
hearing?
Michael
Manx
Yes, Jethro.
That's exactly my point.
rhdennis
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> > Most Clan Lord GMs seem actively hostile to Bartle Explorers
>
> ?!
>
> Or do you just mean that we discourage folks from giving away too much
> information? I don't see that as "actively hostile", from which I infer
> "we are out to get them", only that we ask them to curtail the
> info-spread to those who really want it which, btw, is not exactly the
> same set of people who ask for it or who think they want it.
You actively discourage and punish those who you think have "blabbed"
... review google for the "blab flag" debate of a few years back. Even
if such a "flag" never existed, the threat was certainly hostile. I am
fairly certain some characters have had their "luck" stat adjusted over
issues like this.
rhdennis
Maeght
Manx <bat...@mesanetworks.smoke.net> wrote:
> Michael wrote:
>
> >Manx <bat...@mesanetworks.smoke.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>She not only has the vocal chords of a town cat, but the
> >>hearing of a lyth bat! That girl has spent so much time in
> >>her cave, she can here people speaking normally or even
> >>whispering out in the lobby.
> >>
> >>Manx
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Since bats hunt and navigate by sound, dont they have REALLY good
> >hearing?
> >
> >Michael
> >
> >
>
> Yes, Jethro.
>
> That's exactly my point.
>
> Manx
You'd think she'd deafened herself by now.
- Maeght
Tigger
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:
> FWIW, in Helpful Lord, if a properly trained NPC can do it, a properly
> trained player can, too. More accurately, skills & abilities are
> created as player-abilities first (with whatever limitations we feel are
> appropriate), then the same rules apply to NPCs.
Oh neat, is that in the Helpful Lord v.46 update? I'm still running v.44
and I can't train lightning-throwing yet :-{
- Tigger
Helpful GM
Tigger <spam...@earthlink.net> wrote:
In HL v.01, you can train to throw lightning -- it's a spell
("lightning", oddly enough!) that any Wizard or Sorcorer can cast.
Helpful "well, not *ANY* -- but if they train right..." GM