Discover Card: Screw me? Screw you! (Discover Card Statements No Longer Viewable in Preview)

[Nick Naym]

As of January, if you download (or simply attempt to view online) your
Discover Card statement, you'll "discover" that you need Adobe Reader
(or Acrobat):

"Important Note for Mac Users: In order to view your PDF statements
properly, please download Adobe Reader."


Try using Preview and you'll see little more than garbage; try calling
Discover, and you'll get ignorance peppered with a bad
("we-don't-give-a-crap-about-Mac-users") attitude:

I called Customer Service and spoke to several reps, including a
supervisor, in an attempt to find out why the change was made. The
explanation was quite simple (and quite void of meaningful content):
Discover implemented "enhancements" (supposedly "customer-desired") to
the statement format. Since the "enhancements" adversely affected only
Mac users (i.e., we no longer can simply click to view/double-click to
open our Discover Card statements, but now must install and use an Adobe
app), and since Mac users constitute a minority of Discover's customer
base, Discover decided that "majority rules," and Mac users will just
have to get used to the inconvenience of opening Adobe each time they
want to look at their Discover statements.

The *very first letter* in "PDF" stands for "portable." So, what were
the "customer-desired enhancements" that forced Discover to create a
PDF-statement format that is *less* portable? They couldn't say. I told
them that unless there was an absolutely compelling technical reason
that forced Discover to make a change in format which creates such
irritating operational inconvenience without providing any sufficiently
worthwhile benefits, I will simply cease to be an active Discover Card
user (I'm a long-time customer, and have several cards which I tend to
use almost to the exclusion of other credit cards). They promised to try
to find out and get back to me.

That was 2 weeks ago. Looks like Discover will be losing my business.


--
iMac (27", 3.2 GHz Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM, 1 TB HDD) • OS X (10.8.2)

[nospam]

In article
<1kx7djk.hdgduifm8v4N%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>, Nick

the problem is that apple's preview is not fully pdf compliant. most
pdfs display fine, but there are some that will not.

[D.F. Manno]

In article
<1kx7djk.hdgduifm8v4N%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>,

nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid (Nick Naym) wrote:

> As of January, if you download (or simply attempt to view online) your
> Discover Card statement, you'll "discover" that you need Adobe Reader
> (or Acrobat):
>
> "Important Note for Mac Users: In order to view your PDF statements
> properly, please download Adobe Reader."
>
> Try using Preview and you'll see little more than garbage; try calling
> Discover, and you'll get ignorance peppered with a bad
> ("we-don't-give-a-crap-about-Mac-users") attitude:

First-world problem.

--
D.F. Manno | dfm...@mail.com
GOP delenda est!

[Barry Margolin]

In article
<1kx7djk.hdgduifm8v4N%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>,
nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid (Nick Naym) wrote:

> As of January, if you download (or simply attempt to view online) your
> Discover Card statement, you'll "discover" that you need Adobe Reader
> (or Acrobat):
>
> "Important Note for Mac Users: In order to view your PDF statements
> properly, please download Adobe Reader."

So install Adobe Reader.

It's not like they're using a format that Mac users can't read at all,
you just need to install a free app.

--
Barry Margolin, bar...@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***

[Nick Naym]

The definition of which is...???

[Nick Naym]

Barry Margolin <bar...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> In article
> <1kx7djk.hdgduifm8v4N%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>,
> nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid (Nick Naym) wrote:
>
> > As of January, if you download (or simply attempt to view online) your
> > Discover Card statement, you'll "discover" that you need Adobe Reader
> > (or Acrobat):
> >
> > "Important Note for Mac Users: In order to view your PDF statements
> > properly, please download Adobe Reader."
>
> So install Adobe Reader.
>
> It's not like they're using a format that Mac users can't read at all,
> you just need to install a free app.

But it is like they've changed the way they've always done their coding
without any regard whatsoever to the impact it will have on a good
number of their customers. They claim it's to provide "customer
-desired" enhancements to the statements, but I don't recall them
conducting a poll asking about any contemplated "enhancements"...nor
were they able to tell me just what those enhancements are. "I don't
know" was their reponse when I specifically asked.

I know what needs to be done to read the "enhanced" statements, and, in
fact, I have Acrobat, so I needn't even bother to download and install
Reader.

However, even with Reader or Acrobat installed, one can't quickly view
the statement by hitting the space bar. And if you want to open the
statement, you must always do so from within Reader (or Acrobat). So,
from now on, if I want to open my Discover statements like I do every
other document (by double-clicking), I need to change the default "Open
with..." from Preview to Acrobat (or Reader) in every Discover statement
I receive. Bottom line: To manage my Discover statements -- and only my
Discover statements -- I now have to go through extra steps with each
one I receive to permanently enable double-clicking to work. But even
doing that will only be a partial "solution," as it doesn't restore the
convenience of being able to quickly view them via the space bar. It may
sound like I'm being picayune, but it really is a royal PITA...and for
what? What "benefit" does this so-called "enhancement" provide Mac
customers?

[Nick Naym]

It never was a problem before...it only became one when they decided to
"enhance" the statements. (Must've been one helluva set of
enhancements!)

[nospam]

In article
<1kx7ub1.yh0433lrgr7iN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>, Nick

preview not properly handling all pdfs has always been a problem, just
not a common one. apple's preview is not fully compliant and this will
occur. discover is not the first to create a pdf that preview can't
render and they certainly won't be the last. i've seen some that are
entirely white.

get a pdf reader that's fully compliant with the spec and you won't
have this problem.

[philo]

On 01/24/2013 06:05 PM, Lewis wrote:
> In message <barmar-E3D37B....@news.eternal-september.org>

> Barry Margolin <bar...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>> In article
>> <1kx7djk.hdgduifm8v4N%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>,
>> nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid (Nick Naym) wrote:
>
>>> As of January, if you download (or simply attempt to view online) your
>>> Discover Card statement, you'll "discover" that you need Adobe Reader
>>> (or Acrobat):
>>>
>>> "Important Note for Mac Users: In order to view your PDF statements
>>> properly, please download Adobe Reader."
>
>> So install Adobe Reader.
>

> Fuck no, I will never ever install an Adobe product on my Mac. Their
> software sucks fetid donkey penis, and their fucking installers are even
> worse.

>
>> It's not like they're using a format that Mac users can't read at all,
>> you just need to install a free app.
>

> I consider Adobe to be malware and am as likely to install it as I am to
> install Flash or the Java Web plugin. If I were a DiscoverCard customer,
> I would cancel my account over this, and I wouldn't wait 2 weeks to do
> it.
>
> --
> "If I only had a little humility, I'd be perfect."
>



Why not use Foxit ?

--
https://www.createspace.com/3707686

[Barry Margolin]

In article <slrnkg3j2f....@ananke.local>,

Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <barmar-E3D37B....@news.eternal-september.org>
> Barry Margolin <bar...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> > In article
> > <1kx7djk.hdgduifm8v4N%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>,
> > nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid (Nick Naym) wrote:
>
> >> As of January, if you download (or simply attempt to view online) your
> >> Discover Card statement, you'll "discover" that you need Adobe Reader
> >> (or Acrobat):
> >>
> >> "Important Note for Mac Users: In order to view your PDF statements
> >> properly, please download Adobe Reader."
>
> > So install Adobe Reader.
>

> Fuck no, I will never ever install an Adobe product on my Mac. Their
> software sucks fetid donkey penis, and their fucking installers are even
> worse.
>

> > It's not like they're using a format that Mac users can't read at all,
> > you just need to install a free app.
>

> I consider Adobe to be malware and am as likely to install it as I am to
> install Flash or the Java Web plugin. If I were a DiscoverCard customer,
> I would cancel my account over this, and I wouldn't wait 2 weeks to do
> it.

Unfortunately, Adobe Reader is considered de facto standard software by
most of the industry. While Macs don't usually need it, it's the normal
way for Windows PCs to read PDF files. So you're not likely to get much
sympathy when you complain that you consider it malware -- you sound
more like a paranoid kook, and they'll just dismiss you. If it costs
them one or two customers, I don't think they're going to care.

[Nick Naym]

Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <barmar-E3D37B....@news.eternal-september.org>
> Barry Margolin <bar...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> > In article
> > <1kx7djk.hdgduifm8v4N%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>,
> > nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid (Nick Naym) wrote:
>
> >> As of January, if you download (or simply attempt to view online) your
> >> Discover Card statement, you'll "discover" that you need Adobe Reader
> >> (or Acrobat):
> >>
> >> "Important Note for Mac Users: In order to view your PDF statements
> >> properly, please download Adobe Reader."
>
> > So install Adobe Reader.
>

> Fuck no, I will never ever install an Adobe product on my Mac. Their
> software sucks fetid donkey penis, and their fucking installers are even
> worse.

Must be the "fetid" part that upsets you. ;-/

>
> > It's not like they're using a format that Mac users can't read at all,
> > you just need to install a free app.
>

> I consider Adobe to be malware and am as likely to install it as I am to
> install Flash or the Java Web plugin. If I were a DiscoverCard customer,
> I would cancel my account over this, and I wouldn't wait 2 weeks to do
> it.
>

I pay all of my bills via credit card (i.e., I don't carry cash, write
checks, etc.), and virtually every transaction has been with a Discover
Card (and it's quite a lot each month). No more...I'll be using my other
credit cards instead. I'll keep my Discover accounts open, but only use
them in an "emergency" (which, quite frankly, I can't quite define).

> --
> "If I only had a little humility, I'd be perfect."

[Tom Stiller]

In article
<1kx7ub1.yh0433lrgr7iN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>,

nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid (Nick Naym) wrote:

> It never was a problem before...it only became one when they decided to
> "enhance" the statements. (Must've been one helluva set of
> enhancements!)

Yeah, I said screw 'em and cancelled my paperless option. They can mail
me the statement.

--
PRAY, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf
of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy. -- Ambrose Bierce

[Nick Naym]

Like I've said, I have Acrobat...it's not that I can't open the
statements, it's the extra work I have to do on an ongoing basis that
pisses me off, compounded further by what I lose in the process even
with Acrobat or Reader installed. All just to have the "privilege" of
remaining *their* customer.

Now besides being a very good customer, I'm a pretty understanding and
reasonable guy, so I asked what enhancements I'd notice and benefits I'd
realize as a result of Discover changing the way it fashions it's PDF
statements. Apparently, there are none they care to (or actually can)
articulate. I'm thus left with the impression that Discover was simply
too lazy (or just doesn't care) to put in the effort required to
continue to enable its statements to remain compatible with Preview,
which, if true, exposes a rather cavalier customer attitude.

They've made a "business decision," and so have I; I think theirs was
ill considered, mine was not. They may decide to reconsider somewhere
down the line; I will not.

[Warren Oates]

In article <slrnkg3j2f....@ananke.local>,
Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> I consider Adobe to be malware and am as likely to install it as I am to
> install Flash or the Java Web plugin. If I were a DiscoverCard customer,
> I would cancel my account over this, and I wouldn't wait 2 weeks to do
> it.

That's just silly. Maybe you can get your statements inscribed on
birchbark from first-growth trees in a lesbian commune on Salt Spring
Island and delivered to you in cleft sticks carried by fleet-footed
Masai warriors ...

... just saying is all.

As for Discover's "customer service," the reps are unintelligent
Americans with meaningless degrees in useless subjects from nondescript
colleges in decaying cities in flyover states ...

... just saying is all.
--

Soulless fruitflies are the nanotechnology of the fear industry -- Bucky

[Warren Oates]

In article
<1kx7un4.15f1fnjrx6v9cN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>,

nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid (Nick Naym) wrote:

> I pay all of my bills via credit card (i.e., I don't carry cash, write
> checks, etc.), and virtually every transaction has been with a Discover
> Card (and it's quite a lot each month). No more...I'll be using my other
> credit cards instead. I'll keep my Discover accounts open, but only use
> them in an "emergency" (which, quite frankly, I can't quite define).

That'll teach 'em.

[Nick Naym]

I wonder if/how the smartphone segment will be affected/react?

[nospam]

In article
<1kx7w8e.1i3m06n1x5t1lqN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>, Nick

Naym <nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid> wrote:

> Now besides being a very good customer, I'm a pretty understanding and
> reasonable guy, so I asked what enhancements I'd notice and benefits I'd
> realize as a result of Discover changing the way it fashions it's PDF
> statements. Apparently, there are none they care to (or actually can)
> articulate.

you more than likely didn't ask the right person. the front line people
on the phone don't know, as they didn't make the decision. someone much
higher up did. the phone agents only know what's in their script and
they were told to say 'customer requests' or something to that effect.

> I'm thus left with the impression that Discover was simply
> too lazy (or just doesn't care) to put in the effort required to
> continue to enable its statements to remain compatible with Preview,
> which, if true, exposes a rather cavalier customer attitude.

they're creating a valid pdf. why should they make it readable by an
app that isn't compliant with the pdf spec? sure it would be nice, but
it's not their fault a valid pdf cannot be read by preview.

> They've made a "business decision," and so have I; I think theirs was
> ill considered, mine was not. They may decide to reconsider somewhere
> down the line; I will not.

apple made a business decision to not make preview fully compliant. on
occasion, it causes problems.

[Nick Naym]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article
> <1kx7w8e.1i3m06n1x5t1lqN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>, Nick
> Naym <nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Now besides being a very good customer, I'm a pretty understanding and
> > reasonable guy, so I asked what enhancements I'd notice and benefits I'd
> > realize as a result of Discover changing the way it fashions it's PDF
> > statements. Apparently, there are none they care to (or actually can)
> > articulate.
>
> you more than likely didn't ask the right person. the front line people
> on the phone don't know, as they didn't make the decision. someone much
> higher up did. the phone agents only know what's in their script and
> they were told to say 'customer requests' or something to that effect.
>

I got hold of a supervisor and after a rather detailed and specific
discussion during which I indicated that I was fully aware that the
likelihood was small that the front-line folks had the answers I was
seeking, and simply wanted to get to someone who *could* answer my
questions, I was assured that they would attempt to find out, and
*promised* to get back to me. No one has.

> > I'm thus left with the impression that Discover was simply
> > too lazy (or just doesn't care) to put in the effort required to
> > continue to enable its statements to remain compatible with Preview,
> > which, if true, exposes a rather cavalier customer attitude.
>
> they're creating a valid pdf. why should they make it readable by an
> app that isn't compliant with the pdf spec? sure it would be nice, but
> it's not their fault a valid pdf cannot be read by preview.
>

Why would they *stop* making it readable?

> > They've made a "business decision," and so have I; I think theirs was
> > ill considered, mine was not. They may decide to reconsider somewhere
> > down the line; I will not.
>
> apple made a business decision to not make preview fully compliant. on
> occasion, it causes problems.

...problems that apparently Discover has had no difficulties dealing
with in the past. My question was "what's different today from last
month?"

[John Varela]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 20:10:46 UTC, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

If that's so then the complaints ought to be directed at Apple
instead of at Discover.

--
John Varela

[D.F. Manno]

In article
<1kx7r87.1ra2ka51a0w3ciN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>,
nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid (Nick Naym) wrote:

> D.F. Manno <dfm...@mail.com> wrote:
> > nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid (Nick Naym) wrote:
> >
> > > As of January, if you download (or simply attempt to view online) your
> > > Discover Card statement, you'll "discover" that you need Adobe Reader
> > > (or Acrobat):
> > >
> > > "Important Note for Mac Users: In order to view your PDF statements
> > > properly, please download Adobe Reader."
> > >
> > > Try using Preview and you'll see little more than garbage; try calling
> > > Discover, and you'll get ignorance peppered with a bad
> > > ("we-don't-give-a-crap-about-Mac-users") attitude:
> >
> > First-world problem.
>
> The definition of which is...???

"First World Problems, also known as 'White Whine,' are frustrations and
complaints that are only experienced by privileged individuals in
wealthy countries. It is typically used as a tongue-in-cheek comedic
device to make light of trivial inconveniences."

<http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/first-world-problems>

[nospam]

In article <slrnkg3t1e....@ananke.local>, Lewis

<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> >> > The *very first letter* in "PDF" stands for "portable." So, what were
> >> > the "customer-desired enhancements" that forced Discover to create a
> >> > PDF-statement format that is *less* portable? They couldn't say. I told
> >> > them that unless there was an absolutely compelling technical reason
> >> > that forced Discover to make a change in format which creates such
> >> > irritating operational inconvenience without providing any sufficiently
> >> > worthwhile benefits, I will simply cease to be an active Discover Card
> >> > user (I'm a long-time customer, and have several cards which I tend to
> >> > use almost to the exclusion of other credit cards). They promised to try
> >> > to find out and get back to me.
> >>
> >> the problem is that apple's preview is not fully pdf compliant. most
> >> pdfs display fine, but there are some that will not.
>
> > If that's so then the complaints ought to be directed at Apple
> > instead of at Discover.
>

> Nospam is lying. Preview in OS X is very compliant and often does a
> better job (and faster) than Reader does.

if i'm lying, then so are you, because you are agreeing that it is not
fully compliant. maybe you want to rethink what you are saying. as for
faster, it's easy to be fast when you don't properly handle everything.
that's part of why it's not fully compliant. whatever discover is doing
is in the small percentage that isn't properly handled.

> What has happened is that
> Adobe has added some bullshit 'features' that only Reader supports in an
> effort to make "Portable Document Format" into "nonPortable Document
> Format for Adobe Reader Only".

wrong. adobe extensions (assuming they're even using any) are fully
documented and anyone can implement them.

[gtr]

On 2013-01-25 00:05:35 +0000, Lewis said:

>> So install Adobe Reader.
>
> Fuck no, I will never ever install an Adobe product on my Mac. Their
> software sucks fetid donkey penis, and their fucking installers are even
> worse.

Agreed. I don't want to be limited to someone else's preferred software
if I don't like that software.

This morning my wells fargo account couldn't be accessed via Safari. I
called wells fargo and while trying to debug it, we changed my
password. Okay find. No fix. Then tried it in Firefox which I don't
use but keep on hand. It worked. The Wells Fargo tech considered the
problem fixed. I didn't think so, but he didn't really have any other
suggestions, "you could clear your caches and uh... reboot and maybe
that will fix it.

He was adamant that they fully supported Mac, fully supported Safari
and that was the end of that.

I'll wait a few months and hopefully whoevers brother-in-law does runs
the crew over there will get around to fixing it.

>> It's not like they're using a format that Mac users can't read at all,
>> you just need to install a free app.

There's no arguing that it's just easier to do what you're told by the
majority software/hardware approach. That was the general approach to
MS and Windows when I didn't LIKE their OS or sofware or related
computers. I just had to come up with my own solutions on Atari's and
other platforms.

Part of that solution was avoiding meddlesome software manufacturers.
Adobe was very high on my list and so it has remained.

[nospam]

In article <slrnkg3slc....@ananke.local>, Lewis

<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> > Unfortunately, Adobe Reader is considered de facto standard software by
> > most of the industry. While Macs don't usually need it, it's the normal
> > way for Windows PCs to read PDF files. So you're not likely to get much
> > sympathy when you complain that you consider it malware -- you sound
> > more like a paranoid kook, and they'll just dismiss you. If it costs
> > them one or two customers, I don't think they're going to care.
>

> It will cost them a lot more than one or two customers. I know plenty of
> people who don't have "computers" at all anymore and just have iPads.

you're assuming that anyone who has an ipad and gets such a pdf will
stubbornly refuse to install a free app that will let them properly
read the document and also cancel their account.

you're also assuming that there isn't a mobile app from the company
that eliminates the need for a pdf in the first place. there is an app
for discover customers but i'm not a discover customer so i don't know
what it does or doesn't do versus a pdf.

[Wes Groleau]

On 01-24-2013 20:29, Nick Naym wrote:
> reasonable guy, so I asked what enhancements I'd notice and benefits I'd
> realize as a result of Discover changing the way it fashions it's PDF
> statements. Apparently, there are none they care to (or actually can)
> articulate. I'm thus left with the impression that Discover was simply

And earlier:

> Discover implemented "enhancements" (supposedly "customer-desired") to
> the statement format. Since the "enhancements" adversely affected only

Ah, did I hear that right?

"Our customers wanted some enhancements,
so we implemented them.
But we don't know what they are."


--
Wes Groleau

I've noticed lately that the paranoid fear of computers becoming
intelligent and taking over the world has almost entirely disappeared
from the common culture. Near as I can tell, this coincides with
the release of MS-DOS.
— Larry DeLuca

[bi...@mix.com]

Nick Naym <nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid> writes:

> ...problems that apparently Discover has had no difficulties dealing
> with in the past. My question was "what's different today from last
> month?"

If you had been receiving paper statements you would have noticed a
significant change in the format this month. I'm guessing that also
affected whatever is supplied electronically. I don't know, because
I'm an old guy - I grew up with paper, and I still prefer it now.

Amongst credit card companies, Discover (and JCB) suck the least.

If you want to pursue your complaint with Discover, look through
their web site for the names appropriate execs, then you can email
them - addresses there are of the format <firs...@discover.com>.

As for Apple and PDFs, it's not unusual at my place for me to have to
copy one to a memory stick, walk into the next room, put it in another
computer, then print but save it to a PDF, after which Preview can
read it. Heh. I should have diff'd some files to see what changed
so I could tell you now. Adobe's PDF (and Flash) program has been
a continual security problem, not to mention it does unexpected and
unwanted things, so I don't use it. There are several other readers
for Windows, but I don't know what's available for the Mac, and then
they would likely use Apple's PDF library anyway. To make a long
story short, and even though I'd be shocked if this got fixed, you
should complain to Apple -

https://bugreport.apple.com/

Billy Y..
--
sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte
add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer
bcc 20$ ; not a number

[Nick Naym]

Wes Groleau <Grolea...@FreeShell.org> wrote:

> On 01-24-2013 20:29, Nick Naym wrote:
> > reasonable guy, so I asked what enhancements I'd notice and benefits I'd
> > realize as a result of Discover changing the way it fashions it's PDF
> > statements. Apparently, there are none they care to (or actually can)
> > articulate. I'm thus left with the impression that Discover was simply
>
> And earlier:
> > Discover implemented "enhancements" (supposedly "customer-desired") to
> > the statement format. Since the "enhancements" adversely affected only
>
> Ah, did I hear that right?
>
> "Our customers wanted some enhancements,
> so we implemented them.
> But we don't know what they are."

Uh...yup. And I've been wating since then (January 10) for them to get
back to me with the answer.

[Nick Naym]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <slrnkg3slc....@ananke.local>, Lewis
> <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>
> > > Unfortunately, Adobe Reader is considered de facto standard software by
> > > most of the industry. While Macs don't usually need it, it's the normal
> > > way for Windows PCs to read PDF files. So you're not likely to get much
> > > sympathy when you complain that you consider it malware -- you sound
> > > more like a paranoid kook, and they'll just dismiss you. If it costs
> > > them one or two customers, I don't think they're going to care.
> >
> > It will cost them a lot more than one or two customers. I know plenty of
> > people who don't have "computers" at all anymore and just have iPads.
>
> you're assuming that anyone who has an ipad and gets such a pdf will
> stubbornly refuse to install a free app that will let them properly
> read the document and also cancel their account.
>

I was wondering about that as well, which is why I asked "I wonder

if/how the smartphone segment will be affected/react?"

> you're also assuming that there isn't a mobile app from the company
> that eliminates the need for a pdf in the first place. there is an app
> for discover customers but i'm not a discover customer so i don't know
> what it does or doesn't do versus a pdf.

I guess it depends on your definition of "need." I found this at
Discover's website (http://tinyurl.com/aq38ox4):

----------------------------------------------------------------------
What can I do at Discover.com Mobile?
Discover.com Mobile allows you to:
-View Account Summary
-Make a Payment
-See up to 20 Transactions
-Identify Pending Payments
-Review Your Payment History
-View Rewards Details
Note: Discover.com Mobile doesn't provide all the
functions that the online Discover.com website offers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The point here is that PDFs apparently never enter the mobile
functional/feature picture: the mobile app is designed to give quick,
summary results, not to provide access to monthly statements.

[nospam]

In article
<1kx8bdk.6zn0h5nasmkgN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>, Nick

Naym <nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid> wrote:

> > > It will cost them a lot more than one or two customers. I know plenty of
> > > people who don't have "computers" at all anymore and just have iPads.
> >
> > you're assuming that anyone who has an ipad and gets such a pdf will
> > stubbornly refuse to install a free app that will let them properly
> > read the document and also cancel their account.
>
> I was wondering about that as well, which is why I asked "I wonder
> if/how the smartphone segment will be affected/react?"

there is a native ipad app and judging by its ratings, users are
satisfied.

> > you're also assuming that there isn't a mobile app from the company
> > that eliminates the need for a pdf in the first place. there is an app
> > for discover customers but i'm not a discover customer so i don't know
> > what it does or doesn't do versus a pdf.
>
> I guess it depends on your definition of "need." I found this at
> Discover's website (http://tinyurl.com/aq38ox4):
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> What can I do at Discover.com Mobile?
> Discover.com Mobile allows you to:
> -View Account Summary
> -Make a Payment
> -See up to 20 Transactions
> -Identify Pending Payments
> -Review Your Payment History
> -View Rewards Details
> Note: Discover.com Mobile doesn't provide all the
> functions that the online Discover.com website offers.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The point here is that PDFs apparently never enter the mobile
> functional/feature picture: the mobile app is designed to give quick,
> summary results, not to provide access to monthly statements.

you're confusing the mobile app with the mobile web site.

first of all, there's no need for tinyurl. the actual url above is
<https://www.discover.com/credit-cards/member-benefits/mobile/mobile.htm
l#q1>

as i said, that's for the discover.com website in a mobile browser, not
the mobile app.

what you want is this link, which is also linked from the above page:
<https://www.discover.com/credit-cards/member-benefits/mobile/mobile-app
s.html>

the description there lists its features, but on itunes it lists
additional features, including 'review your statements', a feature that
was apparently added to the ipad app in the most recent version.

i'm not a customer so i can't try it but it certainly looks like you do
have access to monthly statements on an ipad, maybe iphone as well
(it's not a universal app).

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:04:21 -0500, Nick Naym wrote
(in article <1kx7djk.hdgduifm8v4N%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>):

> As of January, if you download (or simply attempt to view online) your
> Discover Card statement, you'll "discover" that you need Adobe Reader
> (or Acrobat):
>
> "Important Note for Mac Users: In order to view your PDF statements
> properly, please download Adobe Reader."
>
>
> Try using Preview and you'll see little more than garbage; try calling
> Discover, and you'll get ignorance peppered with a bad
> ("we-don't-give-a-crap-about-Mac-users") attitude:
>

> I called Customer Service and spoke to several reps, including a
> supervisor, in an attempt to find out why the change was made. The
> explanation was quite simple (and quite void of meaningful content):

> Discover implemented "enhancements" (supposedly "customer-desired") to
> the statement format. Since the "enhancements" adversely affected only

> Mac users (i.e., we no longer can simply click to view/double-click to
> open our Discover Card statements, but now must install and use an Adobe
> app), and since Mac users constitute a minority of Discover's customer
> base, Discover decided that "majority rules," and Mac users will just
> have to get used to the inconvenience of opening Adobe each time they
> want to look at their Discover statements.
>

> The *very first letter* in "PDF" stands for "portable." So, what were
> the "customer-desired enhancements" that forced Discover to create a
> PDF-statement format that is *less* portable? They couldn't say. I told
> them that unless there was an absolutely compelling technical reason
> that forced Discover to make a change in format which creates such
> irritating operational inconvenience without providing any sufficiently
> worthwhile benefits, I will simply cease to be an active Discover Card
> user (I'm a long-time customer, and have several cards which I tend to
> use almost to the exclusion of other credit cards). They promised to try
> to find out and get back to me.
>

> That was 2 weeks ago. Looks like Discover will be losing my business.
>
>
>

Hmm. I just went to discover.com and checked my statement. I had no problems
whatsoever. What _are_ you on about? <checks further>. Oh. You don't like
Adobe. I didn't have a problem 'cause I have Adobe CS5.5 installed. If I'd
had Adobe Reader installed, I'd not have had a problem, either. So this rant
of yours is because you don't want to install a free utility. O-kay.

--
email to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:10:46 -0500, nospam wrote
(in article <240120131510462171%nos...@nospam.invalid>):

> In article
> <1kx7djk.hdgduifm8v4N%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>, Nick

> the problem is that apple's preview is not fully pdf compliant. most
> pdfs display fine, but there are some that will not.

Yep. It's been that way for a very long time. I found that out when I had to
access several PDFs for work and they'd not display properly in Preview, but
they would display properly in Acrobat, and Reader, and even in FoxIt (on
Windows). Given that they do, in fact, open quite nicely on _all_ platforms,
if only you use an app which is compliant, I suspect that anyone who has a
problem with the formatting will be have to wait until the 12th of Never for
them to fix it. For the vast majority of people, including Mac users, this is
a non-problem. I have given up hope that Apple will ever fix Preview, and
have simply made Acrobat the default to read PDFs.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:06:43 -0500, Nick Naym wrote
(in article <1kx7ub1.yh0433lrgr7iN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>):

> It never was a problem before...it only became one when they decided to
> "enhance" the statements. (Must've been one helluva set of
> enhancements!)
>
>

Oh, Preview has had problems with some PDFs for a _very_ long time. You
merely haven't encountered the problem before.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 20:00:11 -0500, Tom Stiller wrote
(in article <tom_stiller-93CF...@news.individual.net>):

> In article
> <1kx7ub1.yh0433lrgr7iN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>,
> nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid (Nick Naym) wrote:
>
>> It never was a problem before...it only became one when they decided to
>> "enhance" the statements. (Must've been one helluva set of
>> enhancements!)
>
> Yeah, I said screw 'em and cancelled my paperless option. They can mail
> me the statement.
>
>

They've been after me to 'go paperless' for a very long time. I've always
ignored them. The paper statement works quite well for me.

I can, if I want to, access the PDF statement at any time _as well_ as having
the paper statement. I like redundancy.

This thread is about a non-problem, he said, redundantly.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:01:37 -0500, Nick Naym wrote
(in article
<1kx7rab.1qmibrxdwomkgN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>):

> But it is like they've changed the way they've always done their coding
> without any regard whatsoever to the impact it will have on a good number of
> their customers.

There is no 'impact' beyond installing a free app. Or, in my case, using an
app that's already installed. This is a non-issue.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:05:35 -0500, Lewis wrote
(in article <slrnkg3j2f....@ananke.local>):

>> So install Adobe Reader.
>
> Fuck no, I will never ever install an Adobe product on my Mac. Their software

> sucks fetid donkey penis, and their fucking installers are even worse.

O-kay. Moving right along...

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:28:13 -0500, philo  wrote
(in article <kdsjit$cqc$2...@dont-email.me>):

> On 01/24/2013 06:05 PM, Lewis wrote:
>> In message <barmar-E3D37B....@news.eternal-september.org>
>> Barry Margolin <bar...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>>> In article

>>> <1kx7djk.hdgduifm8v4N%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>,

>>> nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid (Nick Naym) wrote:
>>
>>>> As of January, if you download (or simply attempt to view online) your
>>>> Discover Card statement, you'll "discover" that you need Adobe Reader
>>>> (or Acrobat):
>>>>
>>>> "Important Note for Mac Users: In order to view your PDF statements
>>>> properly, please download Adobe Reader."
>>

>>> So install Adobe Reader.
>>
>> Fuck no, I will never ever install an Adobe product on my Mac. Their
>> software sucks fetid donkey penis, and their fucking installers are even
>> worse.
>>

>>> It's not like they're using a format that Mac users can't read at all,
>>> you just need to install a free app.
>>

>> I consider Adobe to be malware and am as likely to install it as I am to
>> install Flash or the Java Web plugin. If I were a DiscoverCard customer,
>> I would cancel my account over this, and I wouldn't wait 2 weeks to do
>> it.
>>

>> --
>> "If I only had a little humility, I'd be perfect."
>>
>
>
>
> Why not use Foxit ?
>
>

'cause it doesn't work on Macs.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:30:17 -0500, Barry Margolin wrote
(in article <barmar-79A53C....@news.eternal-september.org>):

> In article <slrnkg3j2f....@ananke.local>,

> Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>
>> In message <barmar-E3D37B....@news.eternal-september.org>
>> Barry Margolin <bar...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <1kx7djk.hdgduifm8v4N%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>,
>>> nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid (Nick Naym) wrote:
>>
>>>> As of January, if you download (or simply attempt to view online) your
>>>> Discover Card statement, you'll "discover" that you need Adobe Reader
>>>> (or Acrobat):
>>>>
>>>> "Important Note for Mac Users: In order to view your PDF statements
>>>> properly, please download Adobe Reader."
>>
>>> So install Adobe Reader.
>>
>> Fuck no, I will never ever install an Adobe product on my Mac. Their
>> software sucks fetid donkey penis, and their fucking installers are even
>> worse.
>>
>>> It's not like they're using a format that Mac users can't read at all,
>>> you just need to install a free app.
>>
>> I consider Adobe to be malware and am as likely to install it as I am to
>> install Flash or the Java Web plugin. If I were a DiscoverCard customer,
>> I would cancel my account over this, and I wouldn't wait 2 weeks to do
>> it.
>

> Unfortunately, Adobe Reader is considered de facto standard software by
> most of the industry. While Macs don't usually need it, it's the normal
> way for Windows PCs to read PDF files. So you're not likely to get much
> sympathy when you complain that you consider it malware -- you sound
> more like a paranoid kook,

Well, yes.

> and they'll just dismiss you. If it costs
> them one or two customers, I don't think they're going to care.

And correctly so.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 20:47:02 -0500, Nick Naym wrote
(in article
<1kx7yw7.1viigeta6pm5eN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>):

I just fired up my iPhone and I can view the statement there without
problems. Oh. Wait. I installed Adobe reader on the iPhone, too. I didn't
install it for them; I installed it because I wanted to read PDFs on the
iPhone. Well, it works.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 21:49:16 -0500, Lewis wrote
(in article <slrnkg3slc....@ananke.local>):

> In message <barmar-79A53C....@news.eternal-september.org>

> It will cost them a lot more than one or two customers. I know plenty of
> people who don't have "computers" at all anymore and just have iPads.

So? The majority will simply install Adobe Reader. Problem done.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 00:12:52 -0500, nospam wrote
(in article <250120130012527557%nos...@nospam.invalid>):

There's a mobile app, but what it does when you try to access the statement
is pull up the relevant page on discover.com. If you have a PDF app installed
on your system, you can then read the statement. If you don't, you are
prompted to install Adobe Reader. You can, of course, substitute a different
PDF reader if you so desire. Most of them, unlike Apple's Preview, will read
the file without problems. Or you could just use Reader.

Anyone who doesn't want to install Reader or some other app to read the PDF
is, well, on their own.

[nospam]

In article <kduf8...@news6.newsguy.com>, J.J. O'Shea

<try.n...@but.see.sig> wrote:

> >>> Unfortunately, Adobe Reader is considered de facto standard software by
> >>> most of the industry. While Macs don't usually need it, it's the normal
> >>> way for Windows PCs to read PDF files. So you're not likely to get much
> >>> sympathy when you complain that you consider it malware -- you sound
> >>> more like a paranoid kook, and they'll just dismiss you. If it costs
> >>> them one or two customers, I don't think they're going to care.
> >>
> >> It will cost them a lot more than one or two customers. I know plenty of
> >> people who don't have "computers" at all anymore and just have iPads.
> >
> > you're assuming that anyone who has an ipad and gets such a pdf will
> > stubbornly refuse to install a free app that will let them properly
> > read the document and also cancel their account.
> >
> > you're also assuming that there isn't a mobile app from the company
> > that eliminates the need for a pdf in the first place. there is an app
> > for discover customers but i'm not a discover customer so i don't know
> > what it does or doesn't do versus a pdf.
>
> There's a mobile app, but what it does when you try to access the statement
> is pull up the relevant page on discover.com.

that's it?

> If you have a PDF app installed
> on your system, you can then read the statement. If you don't, you are
> prompted to install Adobe Reader. You can, of course, substitute a different
> PDF reader if you so desire. Most of them, unlike Apple's Preview, will read
> the file without problems. Or you could just use Reader.

correct.

> Anyone who doesn't want to install Reader or some other app to read the PDF
> is, well, on their own.

yep, but some people are stubborn.

[Nick Naym]

Yeah...and the first one is:

"View account summary, make payments and search transaction history."

It says nothing at all about handling PDF docs.

> but on itunes it lists
> additional features, including 'review your statements', a feature that
> was apparently added to the ipad app in the most recent version.

Where is the "iTunes" feature list...and what does iTunes have to do
with opening/saving/viewing Discover statements?

>
> i'm not a customer so i can't try it but it certainly looks like you do
> have access to monthly statements on an ipad, maybe iphone as well
> (it's not a universal app).

I don't have an iPhone. I have an iMac. I want to use my iMac. And I
don't want to have to screw around every time I want to access, save,
view, or open my statements. If what I want to do is possible on an
iPhone or iPad, but not on an iMac, I'd be rather surprised.

[Nick Naym]

And then there are folks like me, who have Adobe installed, but who
don't want to be bothered with all of the extra steps required to get
each and every statement I receive and save to my hard drive to open via
double-clicking, and who -- *even after going through all of that* --
are pissed because I can't view any such document via Quick Look.

If that's your definition of "stubborn," then, yes indeed I am
stubborn...*very* stubborn <sheesh>

[Nick Naym]

J.J. O'Shea <try.n...@but.see.sig> wrote:

I have no problems with my pre-January 2013 statements. As of January,
the problem -- as I've defined and described in gory detail -- exists.
It matters not whether I use Acrobat or Reader.

[Nick Naym]

J.J. O'Shea <try.n...@but.see.sig> wrote:

Nonsense. Not being able to open or view the statement in Preview is a
very real problem for me.

[Nick Naym]

J.J. O'Shea <try.n...@but.see.sig> wrote:

It's never been a problem for Discover before. Now it suddenly is?
What's changed? Discover can't/won't tell me.

[Nick Naym]

J.J. O'Shea <try.n...@but.see.sig> wrote:

"Simply" changing the app from Preview to Acrobat for each new statement
is a PITA. And although that "solves" the "opening" problem, it doesn't
"solve" the "Quick Look" problem.

[Nick Naym]

J.J. O'Shea <try.n...@but.see.sig> wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:01:37 -0500, Nick Naym wrote
> (in article
> <1kx7rab.1qmibrxdwomkgN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>):
>
> > But it is like they've changed the way they've always done their coding
> > without any regard whatsoever to the impact it will have on a good number of
> > their customers.
>
> There is no 'impact' beyond installing a free app. Or, in my case, using an
> app that's already installed. This is a non-issue.

Once you change the "Open with..." default from Preview to Adobe, you
can double-click to open it...or you can first open Adobe, and then
open the document from within Adobe. These extra steps are a "non-issue"
in the sense that they are indeed doable...but they are an ongoing issue
in terms of the extra effort you need to expend every time you
receive/want to open your statements. Moreover, they don't address the
"Quick Look" problem. Perhaps that's a "non-issue" for you, but it's an
"issue" for me.

[Nick Naym]

J.J. O'Shea <try.n...@but.see.sig> wrote:

How does it work (I'm unfamiliar with smartphones)? Do you have to open
your PDF docs from within Reader, or can you simply double-click on the
docs for them to open? Can you do the equvalent of a "Quick Look?"

[Nick Naym]

J.J. O'Shea <try.n...@but.see.sig> wrote:

The issue is not whether you can open your PDF docs...you can always
find an app to do that. The issue is what you need to go through each
time you want to open -- or simply "Quick Look" -- your PDF docs.

[nospam]

In article
<1kx9f44.cnhk4x10baaw7N%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>, Nick

Naym <nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid> wrote:

> > you're confusing the mobile app with the mobile web site.
> >
> > first of all, there's no need for tinyurl. the actual url above is
> > <https://www.discover.com/credit-cards/member-benefits/mobile/mobile.htm
> > l#q1>
> >
> > as i said, that's for the discover.com website in a mobile browser, not
> > the mobile app.
> >
> > what you want is this link, which is also linked from the above page:
> > <https://www.discover.com/credit-cards/member-benefits/mobile/mobile-app
> > s.html>
> >
> > the description there lists its features,
>
> Yeah...and the first one is:
>
> "View account summary, make payments and search transaction history."
>
> It says nothing at all about handling PDF docs.

as another poster said, reading pdfs is easily done on an ipad.

> > but on itunes it lists
> > additional features, including 'review your statements', a feature that
> > was apparently added to the ipad app in the most recent version.
>
> Where is the "iTunes" feature list...and what does iTunes have to do
> with opening/saving/viewing Discover statements?

itunes is how to get to the app store on a mac, where you can download
the ipad (or iphone) discover app.

here's the direct link, which should launch itunes and take you to the
app:
<https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/discover-for-ipad/id511125261?mt=8>

> > i'm not a customer so i can't try it but it certainly looks like you do
> > have access to monthly statements on an ipad, maybe iphone as well
> > (it's not a universal app).
>
> I don't have an iPhone. I have an iMac. I want to use my iMac. And I
> don't want to have to screw around every time I want to access, save,
> view, or open my statements. If what I want to do is possible on an
> iPhone or iPad, but not on an iMac, I'd be rather surprised.

you brought up ipads, which is what i was responding to.

ipad and iphone users can use a mobile app and see their statements.

[nospam]

In article
<1kx9crv.1biapf17xjoyN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>, Nick

Naym <nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid> wrote:

> > >> It never was a problem before...it only became one when they decided to
> > >> "enhance" the statements. (Must've been one helluva set of
> > >> enhancements!)
> > >
> > > Yeah, I said screw 'em and cancelled my paperless option. They can mail
> > > me the statement.
> >
> > They've been after me to 'go paperless' for a very long time. I've always
> > ignored them. The paper statement works quite well for me.
> >
> > I can, if I want to, access the PDF statement at any time _as well_ as
> > having the paper statement. I like redundancy.
> >
> > This thread is about a non-problem, he said, redundantly.
>
> Nonsense. Not being able to open or view the statement in Preview is a
> very real problem for me.

either get apple to fix preview or use an app that properly displays
the pdf. it's really very simple.

like he said, it's a non-problem.

[Tom Stiller]

In article
<1kx9fk3.1fyairahc3feN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>,
nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid (Nick Naym) wrote:

> nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>

[snip]

> > yep, but some people are stubborn.
>
> And then there are folks like me, who have Adobe installed, but who
> don't want to be bothered with all of the extra steps required to get
> each and every statement I receive and save to my hard drive to open via
> double-clicking, and who -- *even after going through all of that* --
> are pissed because I can't view any such document via Quick Look.
>
> If that's your definition of "stubborn," then, yes indeed I am
> stubborn...*very* stubborn <sheesh>

I agree with you. I have taken the following steps to ameliorate the
problem:

Cancelled my "paperless" option so Discover can pay the postage to
deliver a paper statement, and

Print the "corrupt" statement to my cups_pdf "printer" to produce a PDF
which will open with quick look or Preview.

--
PRAY, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf
of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy. -- Ambrose Bierce

[Davoud]

Nick Naym:

> > As of January, if you download (or simply attempt to view online) your
> > Discover Card statement, you'll "discover" that you need Adobe Reader
> > (or Acrobat):

> > "Important Note for Mac Users: In order to view your PDF statements
> > properly, please download Adobe Reader."

> > Try using Preview and you'll see little more than garbage; try calling
> > Discover, and you'll get ignorance peppered with a bad
> > ("we-don't-give-a-crap-about-Mac-users") attitude:

D.F. Manno:
> First-world problem.

I think that you have overstated the gravity of the problem. Adobe
Reader is free, safe, convenient, and in general much better at
rendering PDF files than Preview. That, I think, makes it not a problem
at all.

I happen to use Acrobat Pro, which in my view, is unbeatable for
creating and viewing and editing PDF's.

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

[Nick Naym]

1. It's not clear to me that Apple is to blame.
2. No such app (apparently) exists.

[Nick Naym]

The iTunes preview link and the iPad screenshot suggest that customers
can access information and initiate transactions, which is quite
convenient. It also claims that you can:

"View account summary and statement, balance and payment information."

I wonder if that means you can actually *open* your statement, or simply
"View...statement information." Based on what I saw earlier ("View
account summary, make payments and search transaction history"), I sort
of feel it's the latter. But if you can actually open your statement, I
wonder if you must first open Reader to do so. I also wonder whether you
can actually save the statement to the iPad, and, if so, how you would
open it later (directly or from within Reader) when you're not online.

Well, since you're not a (Discover) customer, and I'm not a (iPad) user,
I guess we can't determine exactly what can and cannot be done.

[Nick Naym]

Tom Stiller <tom_s...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> In article
> <1kx9fk3.1fyairahc3feN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>,
> nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid (Nick Naym) wrote:
>
> > nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> >
>
> [snip]
>
> > > yep, but some people are stubborn.
> >
> > And then there are folks like me, who have Adobe installed, but who
> > don't want to be bothered with all of the extra steps required to get
> > each and every statement I receive and save to my hard drive to open via
> > double-clicking, and who -- *even after going through all of that* --
> > are pissed because I can't view any such document via Quick Look.
> >
> > If that's your definition of "stubborn," then, yes indeed I am
> > stubborn...*very* stubborn <sheesh>
>
> I agree with you. I have taken the following steps to ameliorate the
> problem:
>
> Cancelled my "paperless" option so Discover can pay the postage to
> deliver a paper statement, and
>
> Print the "corrupt" statement to my cups_pdf "printer" to produce a PDF
> which will open with quick look or Preview.

Huh? Can you walk me through that?

The only "solution" I was able to come up with was to open the "corrupt"
statement (i.e., the one I download from the site) in Acrobat (*not*
Reader), save it as a Word document, open the saved Word document, and
save (or "print") *that* as a PDF document.

[Tom Stiller]

In article
<1kx9rpb.gl7pxlp0ix5mN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>,

nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid (Nick Naym) wrote:

> Tom Stiller <tom_s...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <1kx9fk3.1fyairahc3feN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>,
> > nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid (Nick Naym) wrote:
> >
> > > nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> > >
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > yep, but some people are stubborn.
> > >
> > > And then there are folks like me, who have Adobe installed, but who
> > > don't want to be bothered with all of the extra steps required to get
> > > each and every statement I receive and save to my hard drive to open via
> > > double-clicking, and who -- *even after going through all of that* --
> > > are pissed because I can't view any such document via Quick Look.
> > >
> > > If that's your definition of "stubborn," then, yes indeed I am
> > > stubborn...*very* stubborn <sheesh>
> >
> > I agree with you. I have taken the following steps to ameliorate the
> > problem:
> >
> > Cancelled my "paperless" option so Discover can pay the postage to
> > deliver a paper statement, and
> >
> > Print the "corrupt" statement to my cups_pdf "printer" to produce a PDF
> > which will open with quick look or Preview.
>
> Huh? Can you walk me through that?

Download and install cups-pdf
<http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/20219/cups-pdf>

Open the statement with whatever you use to render it readable.

Print it to the virtual printer.

Adobe applications don't block this because you're not performing a
"Print to PDF", you're just sending the document to a printer.

>
> The only "solution" I was able to come up with was to open the "corrupt"
> statement (i.e., the one I download from the site) in Acrobat (*not*
> Reader), save it as a Word document, open the saved Word document, and
> save (or "print") *that* as a PDF document.

--

[PhillipJones]

I am a Mac User since 1986. And I don't recommend using to anyone.
If you want to absolutely corrupt PDF forms. Just open them using
Preview. To view a Normal PDF fine. But just the act of opening a PDF
form corrupts it. If apple was to Drop Preview it would be no skin my nose.

The is almost a constant runing thread or a new thread almost every day
about Previews mangling PDF Forms.

Nick Naym wrote:
> nospam<nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>

>> In article<slrnkg3slc....@ananke.local>, Lewis

>> <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>
>>>> Unfortunately, Adobe Reader is considered de facto standard software by
>>>> most of the industry. While Macs don't usually need it, it's the normal
>>>> way for Windows PCs to read PDF files. So you're not likely to get much
>>>> sympathy when you complain that you consider it malware -- you sound
>>>> more like a paranoid kook, and they'll just dismiss you. If it costs
>>>> them one or two customers, I don't think they're going to care.
>>>
>>> It will cost them a lot more than one or two customers. I know plenty of
>>> people who don't have "computers" at all anymore and just have iPads.
>>
>> you're assuming that anyone who has an ipad and gets such a pdf will
>> stubbornly refuse to install a free app that will let them properly
>> read the document and also cancel their account.
>>
>

> I was wondering about that as well, which is why I asked "I wonder

> if/how the smartphone segment will be affected/react?"
>

>> you're also assuming that there isn't a mobile app from the company
>> that eliminates the need for a pdf in the first place. there is an app
>> for discover customers but i'm not a discover customer so i don't know
>> what it does or doesn't do versus a pdf.
>

> I guess it depends on your definition of "need." I found this at
> Discover's website (http://tinyurl.com/aq38ox4):
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> What can I do at Discover.com Mobile?
> Discover.com Mobile allows you to:
> -View Account Summary
> -Make a Payment
> -See up to 20 Transactions
> -Identify Pending Payments
> -Review Your Payment History
> -View Rewards Details
> Note: Discover.com Mobile doesn't provide all the
> functions that the online Discover.com website offers.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The point here is that PDFs apparently never enter the mobile
> functional/feature picture: the mobile app is designed to give quick,
> summary results, not to provide access to monthly statements.
>

--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. "If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net mailto:pjon...@comcast.net

[Nick Naym]

Davoud <st...@sky.net> wrote:

> Nick Naym:
> > > As of January, if you download (or simply attempt to view online) your
> > > Discover Card statement, you'll "discover" that you need Adobe Reader
> > > (or Acrobat):
>
> > > "Important Note for Mac Users: In order to view your PDF statements
> > > properly, please download Adobe Reader."
>
> > > Try using Preview and you'll see little more than garbage; try calling
> > > Discover, and you'll get ignorance peppered with a bad
> > > ("we-don't-give-a-crap-about-Mac-users") attitude:
>
> D.F. Manno:
> > First-world problem.
>
> I think that you have overstated the gravity of the problem. Adobe
> Reader is free, safe, convenient, and in general much better at
> rendering PDF files than Preview. That, I think, makes it not a problem
> at all.

??? His "First-world" comment appears to be in full agreement with you.

>
> I happen to use Acrobat Pro, which in my view, is unbeatable for
> creating and viewing and editing PDF's.

I agree...and that's what I use.

[nospam]

In article
<1kx9pmz.u6sv51xy4khuN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>, Nick

Naym <nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid> wrote:

> > > > >> It never was a problem before...it only became one when they decided
> > > > >> to "enhance" the statements. (Must've been one helluva set of
> > > > >> enhancements!)
> > > > >
> > > > > Yeah, I said screw 'em and cancelled my paperless option. They can
> > > > > mail me the statement.
> > > >
> > > > They've been after me to 'go paperless' for a very long time. I've
> > > > always ignored them. The paper statement works quite well for me.
> > > >
> > > > I can, if I want to, access the PDF statement at any time _as well_ as
> > > > having the paper statement. I like redundancy.
> > > >
> > > > This thread is about a non-problem, he said, redundantly.
> > >
> > > Nonsense. Not being able to open or view the statement in Preview is a
> > > very real problem for me.
> >
> > either get apple to fix preview or use an app that properly displays
> > the pdf. it's really very simple.
> >
> > like he said, it's a non-problem.
>
> 1. It's not clear to me that Apple is to blame.

it is to everyone else. preview has problems with some pdfs, such as
the one from discover. there are others. i encounter the problem every
so often.

> 2. No such app (apparently) exists.

adobe reader. maybe more.

[nospam]

In article
<1kx9pvc.l96kutje4awwN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>, Nick

true, but someone else posted what it does do, including reading pdfs
on an ipad.

[nospam]

In article <kdvk76$k61$1...@news.albasani.net>, PhillipJones

<pjon...@comcast.net> wrote:

> I am a Mac User since 1986. And I don't recommend using to anyone.
> If you want to absolutely corrupt PDF forms. Just open them using
> Preview. To view a Normal PDF fine. But just the act of opening a PDF
> form corrupts it. If apple was to Drop Preview it would be no skin my nose.

not true. although preview does not handle pdf forms properly, merely
opening a pdf does not corrupt it. you *have* to write something back
to the disk to corrupt it.

[Nick Naym]

OK, I'll give it a shot...but it's nearly 3 years since the last update,
and the most-recent review (Nov. 2011) claims it was broken back in
Lion.

>
> Open the statement with whatever you use to render it readable.
>
> Print it to the virtual printer.
>
> Adobe applications don't block this because you're not performing a
> "Print to PDF", you're just sending the document to a printer.
> >
> > The only "solution" I was able to come up with was to open the "corrupt"
> > statement (i.e., the one I download from the site) in Acrobat (*not*
> > Reader), save it as a Word document, open the saved Word document, and
> > save (or "print") *that* as a PDF document.


--

[Warren Oates]

In article
<1kx9eum.9ebll41d2obayN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>,

nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid (Nick Naym) wrote:

> The issue is not whether you can open your PDF docs...you can always
> find an app to do that. The issue is what you need to go through each
> time you want to open -- or simply "Quick Look" -- your PDF docs.

Right-click; "Open with ..."
--

Soulless fruitflies are the nanotechnology of the fear industry -- Bucky

[Tom Stiller]

In article
<1kxa4zf.pc779hkivxmqN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>,

nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid (Nick Naym) wrote:

> Tom Stiller <tom_s...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>

[snip]

> > Download and install cups-pdf
> > <http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/20219/cups-pdf>
>
>
> OK, I'll give it a shot...but it's nearly 3 years since the last update,
> and the most-recent review (Nov. 2011) claims it was broken back in
> Lion.

Working on Mountain Lion (10.8.2) just fine.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 20:52:43 -0500, Nick Naym wrote
(in article <1kx9pmz.u6sv51xy4khuN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>):

It's Apple's fault. Preview has a _long_ history of having problems with
some, but only some, PDFs. I have reported this to Apple on at least three
occasions over the last few years. Apple has not fixed the issue.

> 2. No such app (apparently) exists.

Adobe Reader works fine, and is free. Adobe Acrobat works fine, but is not
free. I know this 'cause it works fine on my system.



--
email to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 16:02:26 -0500, Nick Naym wrote
(in article
<1kx9cvl.1mjxgrhze2gxsN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>):

They probably upgraded to a newer version of the PDF spec, probably 1.7
extension 2. See <https://www.adobe.com/devnet/pdf/pdf_reference.html> for
more info. Apps which confirm to the spec work. Apps which don't confirm to
the spec have problems. Among the apps which I _know_ work are Adobe's own
Reader and Acrobat, and FoxIt's Reader and Editor. Unfortunately FoxIt is not
available for Macs. Fortunately Reader is, and is free. Install it and your
problem vanishes. Don't install it and you wait for Apple to confirm to the
standard. I would not advise holding your breath while you wait.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 16:02:27 -0500, Nick Naym wrote
(in article
<1kx9d2o.1quvby9f5c94aN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>):

I simply don't use Preview for PDFs anymore. Period. There is no 'switching'.
There is just using Adobe Reader/Acrobat for PDFs. This way I no longer
encounter problems with _any_ PDF, not just from Discover. As Reader is free,
this is a non-problem.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 16:02:27 -0500, Nick Naym wrote
(in article
<1kx9deu.1hozkw61r4hh09N%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>):

I merely set the default for PDFs to be Acrobat. Now I don't need to do
anything other than double-click the file, and it opens in Acrobat. I don't
need to do anything with Quick Look; it uses Acrobat to view the file. I
don't need to expend any effort whatsoever beyond right-clicking on one, any
one, PDF and selecting 'Get Info', then scrolling down to 'Open With',
selecting Acrobat, and hit the 'Change All' button. Now _all_ PDFs use
Acrobat, except for the ones I deliberately and individually select to use
something else, such as Calibre 'cause they're ebooks and Calibre is a lot
better at being an ebook reader than Acrobat it. And, oh, Calibre is free,
too, and can and will read PDFs. Including the latest format. I wonder why
Apple can't get Preview to work properly when FoxIt and Calibre and many,
many, MANY others can? 'Tis a puzzlement.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 16:02:27 -0500, Nick Naym wrote
(in article <1kx9e04.rntluu771jjeN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>):

Nah. You click on the file, and it opens. Reader doesn't run unless you
launch it. It's more or less the equiv of Quick Look.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 12:38:36 -0500, nospam wrote
(in article <250120131238364569%nos...@nospam.invalid>):

> In article <kduf8...@news6.newsguy.com>, J.J. O'Shea

> <try.n...@but.see.sig> wrote:
>
>>>>> Unfortunately, Adobe Reader is considered de facto standard software by
>>>>> most of the industry. While Macs don't usually need it, it's the normal
>>>>> way for Windows PCs to read PDF files. So you're not likely to get much
>>>>> sympathy when you complain that you consider it malware -- you sound
>>>>> more like a paranoid kook, and they'll just dismiss you. If it costs
>>>>> them one or two customers, I don't think they're going to care.
>>>>

>>>> It will cost them a lot more than one or two customers. I know plenty of
>>>> people who don't have "computers" at all anymore and just have iPads.
>>>
>>> you're assuming that anyone who has an ipad and gets such a pdf will
>>> stubbornly refuse to install a free app that will let them properly
>>> read the document and also cancel their account.
>>>

>>> you're also assuming that there isn't a mobile app from the company
>>> that eliminates the need for a pdf in the first place. there is an app
>>> for discover customers but i'm not a discover customer so i don't know
>>> what it does or doesn't do versus a pdf.
>>

>> There's a mobile app, but what it does when you try to access the statement
>> is pull up the relevant page on discover.com.
>

> that's it?

That's it.

>
>> If you have a PDF app installed
>> on your system, you can then read the statement. If you don't, you are
>> prompted to install Adobe Reader. You can, of course, substitute a
>> different
>> PDF reader if you so desire. Most of them, unlike Apple's Preview, will
>> read
>> the file without problems. Or you could just use Reader.
>

> correct.

So far as I can see this is a non-problem. It really is.

>
>> Anyone who doesn't want to install Reader or some other app to read the PDF
>> is, well, on their own.
>

> yep, but some people are stubborn.

Discover is NOT going to pay any attention to them, either.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 16:02:25 -0500, Nick Naym wrote
(in article <1kx9fk3.1fyairahc3feN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>):

> nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> In article <kduf8...@news6.newsguy.com>, J.J. O'Shea
>> <try.n...@but.see.sig> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Unfortunately, Adobe Reader is considered de facto standard software by
>>>>>> most of the industry. While Macs don't usually need it, it's the normal
>>>>>> way for Windows PCs to read PDF files. So you're not likely to get much
>>>>>> sympathy when you complain that you consider it malware -- you sound
>>>>>> more like a paranoid kook, and they'll just dismiss you. If it costs
>>>>>> them one or two customers, I don't think they're going to care.
>>>>>
>>>>> It will cost them a lot more than one or two customers. I know plenty of
>>>>> people who don't have "computers" at all anymore and just have iPads.
>>>>
>>>> you're assuming that anyone who has an ipad and gets such a pdf will
>>>> stubbornly refuse to install a free app that will let them properly
>>>> read the document and also cancel their account.
>>>>
>>>> you're also assuming that there isn't a mobile app from the company
>>>> that eliminates the need for a pdf in the first place. there is an app
>>>> for discover customers but i'm not a discover customer so i don't know
>>>> what it does or doesn't do versus a pdf.
>>>
>>> There's a mobile app, but what it does when you try to access the statement
>>> is pull up the relevant page on discover.com.
>>
>> that's it?
>>

>>> If you have a PDF app installed
>>> on your system, you can then read the statement. If you don't, you are
>>> prompted to install Adobe Reader. You can, of course, substitute a
>>> different
>>> PDF reader if you so desire. Most of them, unlike Apple's Preview, will
>>> read
>>> the file without problems. Or you could just use Reader.
>>
>> correct.
>>

>>> Anyone who doesn't want to install Reader or some other app to read the PDF
>>> is, well, on their own.
>>
>> yep, but some people are stubborn.
>

> And then there are folks like me, who have Adobe installed, but who
> don't want to be bothered with all of the extra steps required to get
> each and every statement I receive and save to my hard drive to open via
> double-clicking, and who -- *even after going through all of that* --
> are pissed because I can't view any such document via Quick Look.
>
> If that's your definition of "stubborn," then, yes indeed I am
> stubborn...*very* stubborn <sheesh>
>
>

No extra steps once you've set Reader to be the default. None. This is a
non-problem.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 16:02:28 -0500, Nick Naym wrote
(in article
<1kx9eum.9ebll41d2obayN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>):

I can do that just fine. No problems whatsoever. But then I have Acrobat
installed, and I have set it to be the default. Problem done. Took all of ten
seconds, many years ago (I'd just installed CS2 when it was new, so that
would make it in the 2005 time frame, which shows you just how long it's been
that Preview's been broken and Apple has refused to fix it) and I've never
changed it since. I can run Quick Look on any PDF without a problem. I can
double-click any PDF without a problem. I can view PDFs in my browsers (well,
except for Firefox, that's a special case) without a problem. This is simply
a non-problem... if you install Reader and switch to using it for PDFs.
You're insisting on doing things the hard way.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 16:02:25 -0500, Nick Naym wrote
(in article
<1kx9gc5.19pw14czoewybN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>):

> J.J. O'Shea <try.n...@but.see.sig> wrote:
>

>> On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:04:21 -0500, Nick Naym wrote
>> (in article <1kx7djk.hdgduifm8v4N%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>):

>>
>>> As of January, if you download (or simply attempt to view online) your
>>> Discover Card statement, you'll "discover" that you need Adobe Reader
>>> (or Acrobat):
>>>
>>> "Important Note for Mac Users: In order to view your PDF statements
>>> properly, please download Adobe Reader."
>>>
>>>

>>> Try using Preview and you'll see little more than garbage; try calling
>>> Discover, and you'll get ignorance peppered with a bad
>>> ("we-don't-give-a-crap-about-Mac-users") attitude:
>>>
>>> I called Customer Service and spoke to several reps, including a
>>> supervisor, in an attempt to find out why the change was made. The
>>> explanation was quite simple (and quite void of meaningful content):
>>> Discover implemented "enhancements" (supposedly "customer-desired") to
>>> the statement format. Since the "enhancements" adversely affected only
>>> Mac users (i.e., we no longer can simply click to view/double-click to
>>> open our Discover Card statements, but now must install and use an Adobe
>>> app), and since Mac users constitute a minority of Discover's customer
>>> base, Discover decided that "majority rules," and Mac users will just
>>> have to get used to the inconvenience of opening Adobe each time they
>>> want to look at their Discover statements.
>>>
>>> The *very first letter* in "PDF" stands for "portable." So, what were
>>> the "customer-desired enhancements" that forced Discover to create a
>>> PDF-statement format that is *less* portable? They couldn't say. I told
>>> them that unless there was an absolutely compelling technical reason
>>> that forced Discover to make a change in format which creates such
>>> irritating operational inconvenience without providing any sufficiently
>>> worthwhile benefits, I will simply cease to be an active Discover Card
>>> user (I'm a long-time customer, and have several cards which I tend to
>>> use almost to the exclusion of other credit cards). They promised to try
>>> to find out and get back to me.
>>>

>>> That was 2 weeks ago. Looks like Discover will be losing my business.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Hmm. I just went to discover.com and checked my statement. I had no problems
>> whatsoever. What _are_ you on about? <checks further>. Oh. You don't like
>> Adobe. I didn't have a problem 'cause I have Adobe CS5.5 installed. If I'd
>> had Adobe Reader installed, I'd not have had a problem, either. So this rant
>> of yours is because you don't want to install a free utility. O-kay.
>
> I have no problems with my pre-January 2013 statements. As of January,
> the problem -- as I've defined and described in gory detail -- exists.

There is no problem.

> It matters not whether I use Acrobat or Reader.

If you install Reader and set it to be the default for PDFs you will have no
problems. You don't want to do this. PEBCK. (Look it up.)

[Davoud]

D.F. Manno:
> > > First-world problem.

DavoudL

> > I think that you have overstated the gravity of the problem. Adobe
> > Reader is free, safe, convenient, and in general much better at
> > rendering PDF files than Preview. That, I think, makes it not a problem
> > at all.

Nick Naym:

> ??? His "First-world" comment appears to be in full agreement with you.

!!! It's called hyperbole. It's figurative speech, not to be taken
literally.

> > I happen to use Acrobat Pro, which in my view, is unbeatable for
> > creating and viewing and editing PDF's.

> I agree...and that's what I use.

What the hell? You have Acrobat Pro and you're upset about PDF's not
opening in Preview.app? Think of Preview.app as the last resort for
opening a PDF, just as you would think of the crew entrance door as the
exit of last resort when bailing out of a C-130.

[nospam]

In article <ke0og...@news6.newsguy.com>, J.J. O'Shea

someone could install vmware and run foxit that way, including the
idiot who said adobe was malware.

[nospam]

In article <ke0p8...@news6.newsguy.com>, J.J. O'Shea

<try.n...@but.see.sig> wrote:

> >> If you have a PDF app installed
> >> on your system, you can then read the statement. If you don't, you are
> >> prompted to install Adobe Reader. You can, of course, substitute a different
> >> PDF reader if you so desire. Most of them, unlike Apple's Preview, will
> >> read the file without problems. Or you could just use Reader.
> >
> > correct.
>
> So far as I can see this is a non-problem. It really is.

i agree. if someone wants to read the pdf, there are easy and free ways
to do it.

> >> Anyone who doesn't want to install Reader or some other app to read the
> >> PDF is, well, on their own.
> >
> > yep, but some people are stubborn.
>
> Discover is NOT going to pay any attention to them, either.

nor should they. there are certain customers that are not worth the
effort to keep them.

[Tom Stiller]

In article <ke0o8...@news6.newsguy.com>,

J.J. O'Shea <try.n...@but.see.sig> wrote:

Yeah, but Preview lets me saved filled-out PDF forms and Reader doesn't.
I have several forms that need minor updating before submitting each
year.

[Király]

D.F. Manno <dfm...@mail.com> wrote:
> First-world problem.

More like US problem. Except for the US, the First World doesn't
really use Discover. I can't recall a single business here in
Vancouver that even accepts it.

--
K.

Lang may your lum reek.

[nospam]

In article <tom_stiller-413E...@news.individual.net>, Tom

Stiller <tom_s...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > 1. It's not clear to me that Apple is to blame.
> >
> > It's Apple's fault. Preview has a _long_ history of having problems with
> > some, but only some, PDFs. I have reported this to Apple on at least three
> > occasions over the last few years. Apple has not fixed the issue.
> >
> > > 2. No such app (apparently) exists.
> >
> > Adobe Reader works fine, and is free. Adobe Acrobat works fine, but is not
> > free. I know this 'cause it works fine on my system.
>
> Yeah, but Preview lets me saved filled-out PDF forms and Reader doesn't.

sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. it depends on the pdf and its
forms. if you haven't had a problem, you're very lucky.

i've frequently found the spacing in pdf forms to be off and the popup
menus sometimes don't pop properly either.

on occasion, it doesn't work at all. i once had to install the trial
version of acrobat just to fill out a form.

[D.F. Manno]

In article <250120132021153671%st...@sky.net>, Davoud <st...@sky.net>
wrote:

> Nick Naym:

> > > As of January, if you download (or simply attempt to view online) your
> > > Discover Card statement, you'll "discover" that you need Adobe Reader
> > > (or Acrobat):
>
> > > "Important Note for Mac Users: In order to view your PDF statements
> > > properly, please download Adobe Reader."
>
> > > Try using Preview and you'll see little more than garbage; try calling
> > > Discover, and you'll get ignorance peppered with a bad
> > > ("we-don't-give-a-crap-about-Mac-users") attitude:
>

> D.F. Manno:
> > First-world problem.

>
> I think that you have overstated the gravity of the problem. Adobe
> Reader is free, safe, convenient, and in general much better at
> rendering PDF files than Preview. That, I think, makes it not a problem
> at all.

Whoooooosh!

--
D.F. Manno | dfm...@mail.com
GOP delenda est!

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 12:29:18 -0500, Tom Stiller wrote
(in article <tom_stiller-413E...@news.individual.net>):

I wouldn't know about Reader and filled forms, I've used Acrobat for years.
Yes, it's more expensive, even if you get it as part of CS (which I did),
even if you get the academic discount (which I did), but it does a lot more.

In this particular case, though we're not talking about a filled out form, so
Reader will work.

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 11:26:13 -0500, nospam wrote
(in article <260120131126137238%nos...@nospam.invalid>):

That's way too much effort. And there are other PDF readers out there which
work in OS X. I have no idea if they'll work in this particular case as I've
not tried them.

[Warren Oates]

In article <tom_stiller-413E...@news.individual.net>,
Tom Stiller <tom_s...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Yeah, but Preview lets me saved filled-out PDF forms and Reader doesn't.
> I have several forms that need minor updating before submitting each
> year.

I wasn't aware of that. I thought it was a function of how the form was
set up in the first place. F'rinstance, (with Adobe Reader) I can apply
for a Canadian passport with a PDF form that saves its fields so I can
go back later. The form to get a Quebec birth certificate won't let me
save the data -- it wants me to fill it out all at once and then print
it right away.

The passport form is cool -- it creates one of those square bar-codie
things as you fill it out, so the passport office just has to scan it,
and it dumps all its info into their system, speeds up delivery of the
passport by about 5 business days. Provided you've done it right, I
guess.

[nospam]

In article <ke1lu...@news3.newsguy.com>, J.J. O'Shea

<try.n...@but.see.sig> wrote:

> >> Adobe Reader works fine, and is free. Adobe Acrobat works fine, but is not
> >> free. I know this 'cause it works fine on my system.
> >
> > Yeah, but Preview lets me saved filled-out PDF forms and Reader doesn't.
> > I have several forms that need minor updating before submitting each
> > year.
>
> I wouldn't know about Reader and filled forms, I've used Acrobat for years.
> Yes, it's more expensive, even if you get it as part of CS (which I did),
> even if you get the academic discount (which I did), but it does a lot more.

as i recall, reader supports pdf forms but it can't save the results.
you can only print it.

that may be ok in some cases, but obviously not all. that's one reason
why i had to install the acrobat trial version, because the recipient
wanted a pdf emailed back.

preview usually lets you fill out the form and save it, assuming it
works with a given pdf and its forms. many times it does not, such as
with the form above.

[nospam]

In article <ke1m1...@news3.newsguy.com>, J.J. O'Shea

<try.n...@but.see.sig> wrote:

> >>>> Oh, Preview has had problems with some PDFs for a _very_ long time. You
> >>>> merely haven't encountered the problem before.
> >>>
> >>> It's never been a problem for Discover before. Now it suddenly is?
> >>> What's changed? Discover can't/won't tell me.
> >>
> >> They probably upgraded to a newer version of the PDF spec, probably 1.7
> >> extension 2. See <https://www.adobe.com/devnet/pdf/pdf_reference.html> for
> >> more info. Apps which confirm to the spec work. Apps which don't confirm to
> >> the spec have problems. Among the apps which I _know_ work are Adobe's own
> >> Reader and Acrobat, and FoxIt's Reader and Editor. Unfortunately FoxIt is not
> >> available for Macs. Fortunately Reader is, and is free. Install it and your
> >> problem vanishes. Don't install it and you wait for Apple to confirm to
> >> the standard. I would not advise holding your breath while you wait.
> >
> > someone could install vmware and run foxit that way, including the
> > idiot who said adobe was malware.
>
> That's way too much effort. And there are other PDF readers out there which
> work in OS X. I have no idea if they'll work in this particular case as I've
> not tried them.

for normal people it's way too much effort. for lunatics who consider
adobe products to be malware, perhaps not. after all, they exist in
some alternate reality.

[David Empson]

J.J. O'Shea <try.n...@but.see.sig> wrote:

> On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 20:52:43 -0500, Nick Naym wrote
> (in article <1kx9pmz.u6sv51xy4khuN%nicknaym@_remove_this_gmail.com.invalid>):
>

> > 1. It's not clear to me that Apple is to blame.
>
> It's Apple's fault. Preview has a _long_ history of having problems with
> some, but only some, PDFs. I have reported this to Apple on at least three
> occasions over the last few years. Apple has not fixed the issue.

I also reported one issue with Preview not correctly rendering PDFs:

In my case, it was anything generated by "Crystal Reports" on Windows,
which happened to include invoices from my ISP. The symptom was that
Preview was showing very thick rounded rectangles, which obscured parts
of the information.

Apple said my report was a duplicate so I don't know what happened after
that, but the problem was eventually fixed, in a later version of OS X
(IIRC it was fixed in Lion but I had reported it about two years
earlier).

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[nospam]

In article <slrnkg8tkh....@mbp55.local>, Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> Afobe blocks print to PDF?

no. what adobe does is give the pdf creator an option to block
printing. if a given pdf is marked as non-printable, then adobe (and
other apps for that matter) will enforce it.

[nospam]

In article <slrnkg8tup....@mbp55.local>, Lewis

<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> > I think that you have overstated the gravity of the problem. Adobe
> > Reader is free, safe,
>

> It's from Adobe, so there is no chance whatsoever that it is safe.

really? what exactly makes it unsafe and why haven't the millions and
millions of very happy adobe customers fallen prey to this supposed
danger? this ought to be good.

[dorayme]

In article <260120132022368201%nos...@nospam.invalid>,

You will never get a straight and *true* answer from these conspiracy
theorists that go on and on about Adobe products. But I expect you
think it fun to tease them a little. <g>

--
dorayme

[nospam]

In article <dorayme-AD0517...@news.albasani.net>, dorayme

<dor...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

> > > > I think that you have overstated the gravity of the problem. Adobe
> > > > Reader is free, safe,
> > >
> > > It's from Adobe, so there is no chance whatsoever that it is safe.
> >
> > really? what exactly makes it unsafe and why haven't the millions and
> > millions of very happy adobe customers fallen prey to this supposed
> > danger? this ought to be good.
>
> You will never get a straight and *true* answer from these conspiracy
> theorists that go on and on about Adobe products. But I expect you
> think it fun to tease them a little. <g>

don't you use adobe products? you could be in danger right this very
minute.

[dorayme]

In article <260120132101046659%nos...@nospam.invalid>,

I use their products all the time and have no problem updating them.
The danger I am supposed to be in is an extra bonus, a thrilling
bonus, perhaps something that 007 enjoyed as he chased the evil one on
rooftops on a hastily borrowed motorbike in Skyfall.

--
dorayme

[Király]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> > It's from Adobe, so there is no chance whatsoever that it is safe.
>
> really? what exactly makes it unsafe

The last time I installed it it broke the ability of Safari to display
PDFs. Strike one.

I went to the Reader prefs and tried to check the internet
display options, and found most of the options greyed out. Strike two.

I learned that Reader requires running in an admin account in order for
those prefs to become available. A piece of software that insists on
being run in an admin account to do tasks that are not admin related is
a security risk in my book. Strike three.

I uninstalled Reader and found that Safari still refused to display
PDFs. Had to google around to find out that some Adobe plugin still
remained in my /Library/Internet Plugins folder that was the culprit.
Strike four.

This was probably five or six years ago. I haven't allowed Reader on my
system since.

> and why haven't the millions and millions of very happy adobe
> customers fallen prey to this supposed danger?

Probably because most Mac users ignore Apple's security configuration
guidelines and run all the time in an admin account, and thus don't
encounter the problem.