I am a programmer, been doing stuff on PC since "whenever". I already have a Dell Laptop running win-xp, and things are fine.
However, my need is to have have a unix based system to work with. Needs include :
- a genuine unix like environment to work with - a reliable system in general. Windows have its own issues.
A rough example of what I intend to do on mac is - - program with perl, c, java etc.. - play along oracle and related stuff and experiment - general internet browsing and related usage
I have spoken to two colleagues, who happen to use windows-at-work-mac- at-home. They have told me very many "great" things about mac.
Here I am looking for opinions about what i intend to do and whether mac is any better a choice for that as against PC. The general image that I have about mac is, "Its the best choice for Graphic related work". Based on that, is it really worth a thought to think about a mac for my kind of needs...
Looking for helping tips...
regards raghav..
@I have posted similar message for mac.system, pls dont feel offended. Just hoping to reach more people.
Raghav <sharma.raghven...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Guys,
> I am a programmer, been doing stuff on PC since "whenever". I already > have a Dell Laptop running win-xp, and things are fine.
> However, my need is to have have a unix based system to work with. > Needs include :
> - a genuine unix like environment to work with > - a reliable system in general. Windows have its own issues.
> A rough example of what I intend to do on mac is - > - program with perl, c, java etc.. > - play along oracle and related stuff and experiment > - general internet browsing and related usage
> I have spoken to two colleagues, who happen to use windows-at-work-mac- > at-home. They have told me very many "great" things about mac.
> Here I am looking for opinions about what i intend to do and whether > mac is any better a choice for that as against PC. The general image > that I have about mac is, "Its the best choice for Graphic related > work". Based on that, is it really worth a thought to think about a > mac for my kind of needs...
> Looking for helping tips...
> regards
While I completely agree that Macs are best for graphics/personal multimedia endeavors, they are also a clear choice for your stated needs. Under that glistening OS X GUI, you have a full-blooded BSD unix implementation and the included Terminal application is your window into the shell of your choice (bash is the default, but you also have sh, csh, tcsh, ksh, and others), with all the expected BSD unix commands and utilities present. Additionally, there is a thriving open-source community making a wide variety of unix/linux-based tools available on OS X.
On 2007-06-09 10:07:13 -0700, Raghav <sharma.raghven...@gmail.com> said:
> Here I am looking for opinions about what i intend to do and whether > mac is any better a choice for that as against PC.
I'd recommend bying a Mac. If it doesn't work out for it, you can run Windows. I'm sure there are a few examples of folks who bought a modern Mac and were dissapointed with the experience, but I am not aware of any. Most switchers I am familiar with rapidly become boosters. -- Thank you and have a nice day.
> On 2007-06-09 10:07:13 -0700, Raghav <sharma.raghven...@gmail.com> said:
> > Here I am looking for opinions about what i intend to do and whether > > mac is any better a choice for that as against PC.
> I'd recommend bying a Mac. If it doesn't work out for it, you can run > Windows. I'm sure there are a few examples of folks who bought a modern > Mac and were dissapointed with the experience, but I am not aware of > any. Most switchers I am familiar with rapidly become boosters. > -- > Thank you and have a nice day.
Hi,
thanks for the advice.
I have now heard advice from about 6-7 people. In person as well as through discussion forums (including this one).
And I must say this, I did not find a single person who said a negative thing about macs. But then, isn't it a bit all too nice. Is it really the case that there is Nothing wrong with mac.
Well, I am just trying to see the flip side as well. If there are so many good things about mac, why is the world still using windows ? So, are there no negatives to it.. really ??
Considering the suggestion, buy a mac, if its fine, great. If it doesn't suit me, run windows using parallel. Sounds great really.
I plan to ask my colleagues to let me use it for a while (I would assume it to be in minutes, but then you can only know so much in such a limited time).
Raghav <sharma.raghven...@gmail.com> wrote: > Is it really the case that there is Nothing wrong with mac.
No, that's not the case. You'll likely find "fanboys" who think that Apple can do no wrong. And they will start arguing with fanboys of the opposite persuation, who think that Apple can do nothing right. I'm neither of those. I just think it is the best of the current choices, all things considered. Though I realize you intended the question hinestly, that's all too likely to start one of those flame wars between fanatics of both sides.
As has been mentioned here not too long ago, one of the negatives of Apple is that it seems to attract such vehement adherents and detractors. :-(
I'll not participate in the flamewars, or even post further on the subject, but a few negatives in my view are:
Macs are a bit pricey. Not as much so as some detractors say, as you generally get a lot with a Mac that would be add-on cost with other systems. But if you don't need all the add-ons, that doesn't matter as much. Basically, if you want what's in the Mac, it is a decent, even good, buy. But if you are looking for the cheapest basic box you can find, it won't be particularly close to a Mac.
Somewhat related to the price thing... there isn't a mid-range Desktop system without a built-in monitor. I love this 24" iMac. Beautiful system. But I had to accept the fact that I had to buy a new monitor as part of the system and that the monitor I bought as part of it was never going to be transferred to any replacement system. The mini is too low-end for my desktop (well, I have one as a media server), and the Mac Pro is just way too expensive - I'd have paid about as much for the Pro without a monitor as for the iMac with.
Games. Yes, the Mac has some, but lots of ones I might want aren't available in Mac (and don't run in Parallels, even the new v3.0). Fortunately there is BootCamp; they do run very nicely in that. And there's a native Mac version of WoW. :-)
There are plenty of other negatives, mostly small. I don't even recall them all at the moment, and I've listed enough.
Oh yes. Almost forgot. And it will probably get me flamed by some here (which flames I'll ignore). But you'll want to buy a decent mouse instead of junk ones Apple has. Fortunately, the Mac works fine with 3rd-party mice like Logitech. Just be sure to include one in your budget.
-- Richard Maine | Good judgement comes from experience; email: last name at domain . net | experience comes from bad judgement. domain: summertriangle | -- Mark Twain
In article <1181414632.598555.301...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
Raghav <sharma.raghven...@gmail.com> wrote: > Well, I am just trying to see the flip side as well. If there are so > many good things about mac, why is the world still using windows ? So, > are there no negatives to it.. really ??
It's called "being entrenched" -- DOS and then Windows became quite dominant during a period when Apple was producing a superior OS on vastly more expensive hardware and without the corporate sales force to impinge on what was, at that time, an IBM-dominated market (the Intel-based systems with DOS and then Windows from other vendors were called IBM clones for a reason).
Mac OS and Macs aren't perfect, but they're less imperfect than Windows and most of the hardware that runs Windows. I've been using DOS and then Windows machines since 1980 and Macs since their release in '84, as well as various Unix-based systems during the past three decades. Since the release of OS X, it's been about 99% Mac and using the Windows box only when necessary to check compatibility on a cross-platform piece of software or when a client has a problem with something that is Windows-specific (like an Access database).
On 2007-06-09 11:43:52 -0700, Raghav <sharma.raghven...@gmail.com> said:
> And I must say this, I did not find a single person who said a > negative thing about macs. But then, isn't it a bit all too nice. Is > it really the case that there is Nothing wrong with mac.
Not among the set of tasks you want to perform, no. If you want to hear the negative side of the Mac, you should speak to people who are loyal to Windows and have never actually used a Mac. They can give you lots of reasons, most of them false, for the horror of being a Mac.
> Well, I am just trying to see the flip side as well. If there are so > many good things about mac, why is the world still using windows ?
That's a good question that is being answered in the market place as we speak. Right now the Mac offers far more possibilities than Windows does. This is the way Windows fought the fight. Their marketing strategy was to make of their OS an island that would be impenetrable, "You're either with us or against us." Apple, as a smaller company has endlessly worked to make bridges for transition. Currently their base bridge is--their computers run both operating systems. How can you beat that? Don't worry MS is working hard to address that some kind of way.l
Why is the world still using Windows? Because the new approach to the battle for market share by Apple is relatively recent. Everybody doesn't sell their car the minute a more capable car is produced, they aren't in the market for a new car, theirs apparently works fine thank you. When it doesn't work so fine, or is outdated, then they'll replace the products they own.
Many of my friends who are Windows users are replacing their computers with an Apple computer, investigating Mac and finding a newer more refined and less problematic operating system. That would only makes sense, as it doesn't have the 20 years of baggage, isn't the biggest target for viruses, spam, spyware, etc.
I think it is a vastly superior OS, and I use both everyday of my life. Eventually it won't be superior; they'll goof up, get top heavy, or face more elegant solutions elsewhere. Until then it's a wonderful time to be on a clean newly-designed OS.
> So, are there no negatives to it.. really ??
Comparitively speaking, Mac to Windows, there aren't any conspicious negatives to it not. Someone mentions price upstream. I don't think that's a particularly big gate. There aren't any others. This won't always be the case. When you're comparing the mouse that comes with the computer as a conspicious negative, you know you're really digging.
> Considering the suggestion, buy a mac, if its fine, great. If it > doesn't suit me, run windows using parallel. Sounds great really.
> I plan to ask my colleagues to let me use it for a while (I would > assume it to be in minutes, but then you can only know so much in such > a limited time).
That's true. And if you are a long-time user of another OS, a few minutes of confusion won't represent your actual usage experience either. -- Thank you and have a nice day.
On 2007-06-09 13:43:52 -0500, Raghav <sharma.raghven...@gmail.com> said:
> And I must say this, I did not find a single person who said a > negative thing about macs. But then, isn't it a bit all too nice. Is > it really the case that there is Nothing wrong with mac.
Well no platform is perfect, so of course there are problems with *any* computer. Mac OS X has it's share, but you'll find the general trend is that recovering from problems on a Mac is somewhat easier and more straight-forward than on Linux or Windows.
> Well, I am just trying to see the flip side as well. If there are so > many good things about mac, why is the world still using windows ?
The world is still using Windows for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with the quality of Macs compared to Windows. Mostly the world still uses Windows because corporations are heavily invested in Microsoft and do not wish to change, especially with regards to changing to something unfamiliar.
> So, are there no negatives to it.. really ??
Of course there are negatives. The compelling point is that the negatives are fewer than alternative platforms such as Linux and Windows.
> Considering the suggestion, buy a mac, if its fine, great. If it > doesn't suit me, run windows using parallel. Sounds great really.
Parallels is most excellent. I use it daily.
> I plan to ask my colleagues to let me use it for a while (I would > assume it to be in minutes, but then you can only know so much in such > a limited time).
True, but don't forget, depending on your geographical location, there very well may be an Apple retail store near you. You can find the closest Apple store to you on this web site:
> Oh yes. Almost forgot. And it will probably get me flamed by some here > (which flames I'll ignore). But you'll want to buy a decent mouse > instead of junk ones Apple has. Fortunately, the Mac works fine with > 3rd-party mice like Logitech. Just be sure to include one in your > budget.
On 2007-06-09 14:20:08 -0500, nos...@see.signature (Richard Maine) said:
> Oh yes. Almost forgot. And it will probably get me flamed by some here > (which flames I'll ignore). But you'll want to buy a decent mouse > instead of junk ones Apple has. Fortunately, the Mac works fine with > 3rd-party mice like Logitech. Just be sure to include one in your > budget.
Actually, I find the included Apple Mighty Mouse with multiple programmable buttons just fine for casual use:
In article <090620071427018076%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca>, Dave Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:
> In article <2007060915035050073-jollyroger@REMOVEpoboxcom>, Jolly Roger > <jollyro...@R.E.M.O.V.E.pobox.com> wrote:
> > Mac OS X has it's share,
> Grrrr...
> Possessive "its" has no apostrophe.
> Sorry... Bit of an obession, I'm afraid.
You might have read or be interested in a book by Lynne Truss called Eats, Shoots and Leaves. At least to the extent of giving it for a present to any chief offenders in family.
> And I must say this, I did not find a single person who said a > negative thing about macs. But then, isn't it a bit all too nice. Is > it really the case that there is Nothing wrong with mac.
Hi
Firstly, in response to your original posting, I think the reason to buy a Mac is if you like it :)
It's difficult to think of things that you can do on the Mac that you couldn't do with Windows. So I think the thing to do is to spend as much time as you can exploring OS X and just see if you like it. If you do then that is the reason to use a Mac.
There are imho things about Windows which are better than the Mac OS. The most notable being that Windows has a very good global keyboard short-cuts system.
For a long time Windows has "right-click" and Apple imho rather foolishly didn't adopt this excellent thing, but now all Macs (I think) come "right-click" ready so that one has been solved.
On 2007-06-09 16:42:22 -0700, patrick j <usemywebs...@googlemail.com> said:
> For a long time Windows has "right-click" and Apple imho rather foolishly > didn't adopt this excellent thing, but now all Macs (I think) come > "right-click" ready so that one has been solved.
Actually, Mac OS has had that "right click" thing for many years. I think maybe even as far back as System 7 (but maybe it was System 8). Anyway, the problem was that you had to either do it the Apple way, which was hold the control key and click, or buy a third-party mouse with at least two buttons. Although both options are still available, the Mac is now bundled with a multi-button mouse. For die-hard old-timers and those who just don't need it, the multi-button-icity can be disabled.
The Windows flaw I discovered one day is that there are some functions that can be accessed only by right-clicking... there are no menu commands or modal dialogs for some things. I discovered this when I brought my ThinkPad home from work and tried to connect an external monitor to it. The only USB mouse I had at the time was a grape-colored puck from my wife's iMac. Without the second mouse button and no alternative approach such as control-clicking, I was dead in the water.
> I have now heard advice from about 6-7 people. In person as well as > through discussion forums (including this one).
> And I must say this, I did not find a single person who said a > negative thing about macs. But then, isn't it a bit all too nice. Is > it really the case that there is Nothing wrong with mac.
> regards
> raghav..
Raghav,
I've only had a Macintosh since last October having used GNU/Linux exclusively at home and occasionally Windows at school, therefore I have a fresh perspective. Alas, there is something wrong with Macintosh computers: There's a bite missing from the apple.
Otherwise, running Parallels Desktop with Solaris 10 in one VM, Ubuntu Server in another, Ubuntu Studio in another, and - all right, all right...XP Pro in another, I can accomplish things that were previously only possible on my home planet.
The Core 2 Duo MacBook Pro laptops truly kicks the monkey's ass.
In article <2007060912545316807-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote: > Why is the world still using Windows? Because the new approach to the > battle for market share by Apple is relatively recent. Everybody > doesn't sell their car the minute a more capable car is produced, they > aren't in the market for a new car, theirs apparently works fine thank > you. When it doesn't work so fine, or is outdated, then they'll replace > the products they own.
I believe that the reason the world is using Windows is that it came on their computer, and in many cases, they bought that computer because they had the OS at work or their friends had it. And I believe that the vast majority of the world doesn't want to flip to any other OS once they've learned the first one. I believe that Microsoft knows that as a first principle. Otherwise, their outrageous licensing terms and vulnerable OS would have been seen as archaic many years ago much as OS9 and earlier are now.
> In article <2007060912545316807-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote: > > Why is the world still using Windows? Because the new approach to the > > battle for market share by Apple is relatively recent. Everybody > > doesn't sell their car the minute a more capable car is produced, they > > aren't in the market for a new car, theirs apparently works fine thank > > you. When it doesn't work so fine, or is outdated, then they'll replace > > the products they own.
> I believe that the reason the world is using Windows is that it came on > their computer, and in many cases, they bought that computer because > they had the OS at work or their friends had it. And I believe that the > vast majority of the world doesn't want to flip to any other OS once > they've learned the first one. I believe that Microsoft knows that as a > first principle. > Otherwise, their outrageous licensing terms and vulnerable OS would have > been seen as archaic many years ago much as OS9 and earlier are now.
Not that I dont like the thoughts flowing, I just thought I should stick to my original question about the buying decision. Thanks to all of you, now I know a bit more about apple and its own world then windows.
Just to mention, I am not a hardcore MS technology programmer/ developer anyway. My core area is going to be Oracle and some tools surrounding it. Which, AFAIK, are either open-source or are ported by the vendor already, and therefore are available to Mac as much as to any other OS.
Honestly speaking, I dont really have anything negative about windows, well, may be some, but not the "hatred" kind of thing. However, I LOVE Unix and its flavours. I have already been doing experiments with diff flavors of Linux on one partition of my Dell here. But, now I feel that those arrangements are limiting in many ways and therefore want a dedicated box to help me.
And, once I came to know that Mac OS X is FreeBSD based, I immediately fired up these questions to my colleagues and to forums like this one here.
For the thoughts mentioned by some of you, I am not really a gamer (hardly played any games), or any serious stuff to do with active directory etc. However, after reading your posts, my belief about the fact that apple is really not catering to enterprises has gone one step ahead. OTOH, now I believe more and more that its more a computer for individual rather than for a corporate. ..My view.
Thanks to all for your views and thoughts, please keep flowing.
regards raghav..
PS: I have just been doing some calculation going from that, the latest MacBookPro is going to cost me in the range of 3000 CHF (Yeah, I am in Switzerland), with the following config 2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB 065-7020 SuperDrive 8x (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW) 065-7025 Apple USB Modem 065-7027 Hintergrundbeleuchtete Tastatur (US) & Mac OS (Englisch, international) LL065-7034 MacBook Pro 15" Breitformat-Bildschirm mit Hochglanzanzeige 065-7038 Landesspezifisches Kit 065-7036 160GB Serial ATA-Laufwerk (5400U/Min.) 065-7023 2,2 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 065-7017
I have seen the posts about Mac prices now being comparable to PC, but somehow my calculations are going way above my expectations... :(
On 2007-06-10 02:57:31 -0500, Raghav <sharma.raghven...@gmail.com> said:
> PS: I have just been doing some calculation going from that, the > latest MacBookPro is going to cost me in the range of 3000 CHF (Yeah, > I am in Switzerland), with the following config > 2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB 065-7020 > SuperDrive 8x (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW) 065-7025 > Apple USB Modem 065-7027 > Hintergrundbeleuchtete Tastatur (US) & Mac OS (Englisch, > international) LL065-7034 > MacBook Pro 15" Breitformat-Bildschirm mit Hochglanzanzeige 065-7038 > Landesspezifisches Kit 065-7036 > 160GB Serial ATA-Laufwerk (5400U/Min.) 065-7023 > 2,2 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 065-7017
> I have seen the posts about Mac prices now being comparable to PC, but > somehow my calculations are going way above my expectations... :(
The prices are indeed comparable when you take into account the additional hardware and design included in the Mac by default that the Dell doesn't have. Some examples:
* literally runs *any* operating system you can think of * only 1-inch thick and only 5.6 pounds * 2GB PC2 5300 RAM * 1000 Base-T (Gigabit) Ethernet * track pad that supports two-finger scrolling, tap, double-tap, and drag capabilities * built-in iSight camera * built-in omnidirectional microphone * optical audio in/out ports * included remote control with bundled Front Row (media center) software * illuminated keyboard controlled by ambient light sensor * MagSafe power adapter
These features are not optional on Macs. And some of them are nowhere to be found on competitor laptops.
Jolly Roger <jollyro...@R.E.M.O.V.E.pobox.com> wrote: > These features are not optional on Macs. And some of them are nowhere > to be found on competitor laptops.
I know. And as you know I'm a Mac user and love it. But I admit sometimes you may be in the market for a car and it doesn't really matter that the BMW compares favourably to the Merc or the Lexus when what you need is simply something to get you reasonably reliably from A to B. Air-condition, automatic shift, six- or eight cylinder engines and a 15-disk CD changer don't come into it. Hard, I know, but there it is: that old Corolla might find a use yet. I don't like it, I don't think it's sexy and I know there are better cars, it is just what my budget allows and I am willing to pay for regarding the work to be done.
But if you are already in the market for a new Audi, by all means do check out the Beamer, too! :-P -- /Jon For contact info, run the following in Terminal: echo 36199371860304980107073482417748002696458P|dc
> Jolly Roger <jollyro...@R.E.M.O.V.E.pobox.com> wrote:
>> These features are not optional on Macs. And some of them are nowhere >> to be found on competitor laptops.
> I know. And as you know I'm a Mac user and love it. But I admit > sometimes you may be in the market for a car and it doesn't really > matter that the BMW compares favourably to the Merc or the Lexus when > what you need is simply something to get you reasonably reliably from A > to B. Air-condition, automatic shift, six- or eight cylinder engines and > a 15-disk CD changer don't come into it. Hard, I know, but there it is: > that old Corolla might find a use yet. I don't like it, I don't think > it's sexy and I know there are better cars, it is just what my budget > allows and I am willing to pay for regarding the work to be done.
> But if you are already in the market for a new Audi, by all means do > check out the Beamer, too! :-P
The Corolla also won't help you nearly as much when that 18-wheeler smacks into the side of you car doing 50 mph. ; ) Personally, I'll take the beemer! I agree with you - those of us who buy Macs buy them because we appreciate features that your typical Windows PC user might not even consider, but there *is* value in those features, whether or not others appreciate that value.
Jolly Roger <jollyro...@R.E.M.O.V.E.pobox.com> wrote: > The Corolla also won't help you nearly as much when that 18-wheeler > smacks into the side of you car doing 50 mph. ; ) Personally, I'll > take the beemer! I agree with you - those of us who buy Macs buy them > because we appreciate features that your typical Windows PC user might > not even consider, but there *is* value in those features, whether or > not others appreciate that value.
Yes. Only sometimes you ain't got the $$... :-( -- /Jon For contact info, run the following in Terminal: echo 36199371860304980107073482417748002696458P|dc
On 2007-06-10 11:23:19 -0500, see_signat...@mac.com.invalid (Jon) said:
> Jolly Roger <jollyro...@R.E.M.O.V.E.pobox.com> wrote:
>> The Corolla also won't help you nearly as much when that 18-wheeler >> smacks into the side of you car doing 50 mph. ; ) Personally, I'll >> take the beemer! I agree with you - those of us who buy Macs buy them >> because we appreciate features that your typical Windows PC user might >> not even consider, but there *is* value in those features, whether or >> not others appreciate that value.
> Yes. Only sometimes you ain't got the $$... :-(
I've been on both sides of that coin. I grew up with moderately low income in new Orleans until I got into the software development business and moved away. But even back when I was 18 and making sometimes only 8k a year barely scraping by, and before most folks even knew what the world wide web was, I found a way to purchase a used Mac. Where there's a will, there's a way, right?
In article <1hzib64.1scjwgkes379fN%see_signat...@mac.com.invalid>,
see_signat...@mac.com.invalid (Jon) wrote: > Jolly Roger <jollyro...@R.E.M.O.V.E.pobox.com> wrote:
> > The Corolla also won't help you nearly as much when that 18-wheeler > > smacks into the side of you car doing 50 mph. ; ) Personally, I'll > > take the beemer! I agree with you - those of us who buy Macs buy them > > because we appreciate features that your typical Windows PC user might > > not even consider, but there *is* value in those features, whether or > > not others appreciate that value.
> Yes. Only sometimes you ain't got the $$... :-(
Hey, they only cost a fraction what they did in 2000, when I bought my big G4 8-)
-- Mary, biblioholic
bib-li-o-hol-ism : the habitual longing to purchase, read, store, admire, and consume books in excess.
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