Got Linux to boot!
Snit
burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand...
but, hey, it worked.
OK, some initial thoughts on my rather limited experience with a modern
Linux: Ubuntu/PowerPC_hoary
1) Wow... they sure manage to shove a lot on that one CD. Really very
impressive - the whole OS, Firefox, OpenOffice, the Gimp, GAIM, Evolution,
etc. Lots of relatively high quality apps... while I have used OpenOffice
and the Gimp and find them lacking in relation to MS Office and Photoshop,
still cool that they can fit them on one CD and there is no doubt that the
applications are good - very good even... just not top of their class.
Some of my later complaints may be from them having to make some concessions
to get everything on one CD... and just from being a LiveCD
2) Had some continued trouble boot - I have dual monitors and Hoary does not
seem to like that. Had to boot with the option "linux video=ofonly", which
is kindly suggested right on the initial screen. Still, for a computer
novice this would have likely been far more stressful than it was for me.
The first thing you see is a bunch of text telling you how to deal with
possible problems... I can see why, but not sure novice computer folks would
be as happy with that as they could be.
3) Once it did start its boot process it went into a bunch of "DOS" looking
text screens with a bright red background. Not sure that was the best
choice of color...
4) When it gets past that it shows little icons of what it is loading...
sort of like OS 9. :)
5) The mouse was smooth - very smooth. No complaints there! Did not play
with the options, but did not feel the need since it was set up by default
to be just right. Hmmm, did not test opening tabs in Firefox with my middle
mouse button. Presumably that worked, too, but I will test it later.
6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to
get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time,
though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the
control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that is
odd!
7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and
the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of
the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and they
just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
8) Windows are very Windows like... min, max, close... even the menu on the
left... not impressive to see them copy Windows like that.
9) To make changes I had to use my root password... but I had not set one
up! Did not see in my quick look in help or docs what the default is.
Guessed it on my third try (yeah, I am a freakin' genius, it is "ubuntu").
10) The help system does not have a search! What the heck! That is
silly...
11) It did not recognize, at least not that I could tell, that I had
inserted my thumb drive. Disappointing.
12) There are dual menus... they have a menu on the top sort of like the
Mac, but each window is like Windows. You can move and even remove the
"panels", which is what they call the Mac like menu area... and you can add
more of them if you like.
13) Played with applications... they took a while to launch, but, hey, they
are all on the CD. Hard to complain. Actually, considering that, they did
just fine. Have used OpenOffice before and use Firefox often. They seem
just as good in Linux as they do elsewhere.
14) Oh, man... forgot to play with save and print dialogs. Oh well... next
time.
15) Decided I had played enough and wanted to reboot. But how. Looked for
a bit and could not find the option. How odd. Decided to at least log
out.. and lo and behold the option came up... sort of like how Windows
combines all the reboot / shut down / log out type options. Not a huge deal
once you get used to it, but I do not see the logic.
Just a few thoughts... I am sure I am leaving things out. Will play with it
more later.
_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
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Tim Smith
> 15) Decided I had played enough and wanted to reboot. But how. Looked for
Remember, when you are playing with a live CD distribution, and all your writable
disks are just RAM disks that are going to be lost anyway when you reboot...just
hit the reset switch. No need to worry about an unclean shutdown. :-)
--
--Tim Smith
Snit
ZbTVd.609$oO4...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net on 3/3/05 11:26 PM:
Yes, and I considered that... but wanted to see if I could find the "right"
way to do it.
I did.
Do I get a gold star? :)
--
Look, this is silly. It's not an argument, it's an armor plated walrus with
walnut paneling and an all leather interior.
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:22:39 -0700,
Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party
> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand...
> but, hey, it worked.
>
So the root problem was Apple's difficulty in handling the .iso burning? :)
> OK, some initial thoughts on my rather limited experience with a modern
> Linux: Ubuntu/PowerPC_hoary
>
> 1) Wow... they sure manage to shove a lot on that one CD. Really very
> impressive - the whole OS, Firefox, OpenOffice, the Gimp, GAIM, Evolution,
> etc. Lots of relatively high quality apps... while I have used OpenOffice
> and the Gimp and find them lacking in relation to MS Office and Photoshop,
> still cool that they can fit them on one CD and there is no doubt that the
> applications are good - very good even... just not top of their class.
>
> Some of my later complaints may be from them having to make some concessions
> to get everything on one CD... and just from being a LiveCD
One thing I found when I was using Knoppix at a clients, for an
extensive time, ( a couple of weeks) it got *faster* as it cached stuff,
the machines had 512M of ram, and Knoppix really moves with that much
ram.
After a while, Knoppix, was faster, than running XP from the harddrive
:) something I found no end of amusement in.
>
> 2) Had some continued trouble boot - I have dual monitors and Hoary does not
> seem to like that. Had to boot with the option "linux video=ofonly", which
> is kindly suggested right on the initial screen. Still, for a computer
> novice this would have likely been far more stressful than it was for me.
> The first thing you see is a bunch of text telling you how to deal with
> possible problems... I can see why, but not sure novice computer folks would
> be as happy with that as they could be.
Can't recall for sure, but I *think* that Warty (the released version)
hides all that, with a note at the bottom of the screen to press esc if
you want all the details during the boot. Hoary is a prerelease, and I
suspect that most of the folks using it, will be watching the boot, for
problems. :)
>
> 3) Once it did start its boot process it went into a bunch of "DOS" looking
> text screens with a bright red background. Not sure that was the best
> choice of color...
>
> 4) When it gets past that it shows little icons of what it is loading...
> sort of like OS 9. :)
>
> 5) The mouse was smooth - very smooth. No complaints there! Did not play
> with the options, but did not feel the need since it was set up by default
> to be just right. Hmmm, did not test opening tabs in Firefox with my middle
> mouse button. Presumably that worked, too, but I will test it later.
It's a configurable option in FF IIRC. Don't know if it's default on in
Hoary.
>
> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to
> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time,
if you dbl click on the calendar that pops up when you click on the
clock display, you get Evolution's calendar window, with the day you
clicked on. Nice integration :)
> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the
> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that is
> odd!
Timezones, the LiveCD will grab the time from the hw clock, and (IIRC)
update it's own time, from the net if pos, but you have to select your
time zone for the clock displayed on the GNOME menubar to be correct.
The LiveCD has no way to tell where you are.
>
> 7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and
> the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of
> the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and they
> just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
>
There are, I (for example) use an "Aqua" like skin, the name of which,
escapes me at the moment. I don't care for Ubuntu's default skin. But
changing it is simple, System->Preferences->Theme and select one you
like. Don't know what the LiveCD comes with for themes.
> 8) Windows are very Windows like... min, max, close... even the menu on the
> left... not impressive to see them copy Windows like that.
matter of preferance I suppose. Of course, you can always us a different
windowmanager, with different button configs, if you chose. But I prefer
it this way personally.
>
> 9) To make changes I had to use my root password... but I had not set one
> up! Did not see in my quick look in help or docs what the default is.
> Guessed it on my third try (yeah, I am a freakin' genius, it is "ubuntu").
No, you use the password you log in with, Ubuntu uses sudo for
administration, there is no root password set by default, root can't
actually log in, on the default config. You'd have to sudo a shell or
the like to become root.
>
> 10) The help system does not have a search! What the heck! That is
> silly...
yeah, I find GNOME's help system to be little help :) It's rather
resource hungry, and doesn't carry much useful info. Although it does
bring in the man pages, and that's nice.
>
> 11) It did not recognize, at least not that I could tell, that I had
> inserted my thumb drive. Disappointing.
Works fine here, might be a PPC issue, don't know. But if you were
expecting an icon to pop up, that may be turned off. Go to
System->Preferences->Removeable drives and media, the options are there.
>
> 12) There are dual menus... they have a menu on the top sort of like the
> Mac, but each window is like Windows. You can move and even remove the
> "panels", which is what they call the Mac like menu area... and you can add
> more of them if you like.
Yes, including adding things like a dictionary lookup, a file lookup
tool, a small command line util, address book search, etc. Plus any app
on the machine. Also, you can add a connect to server applet, which will
allow you to connect via ftp, sftp, smb, nfs, etc, treats them all as
part of the filesystem, so you can easily drag and drop files from a
remote ftp server, to an smb share on another machine. Etc.
>
> 13) Played with applications... they took a while to launch, but, hey, they
> are all on the CD. Hard to complain. Actually, considering that, they did
> just fine. Have used OpenOffice before and use Firefox often. They seem
> just as good in Linux as they do elsewhere.
and there are a whole heck of a lot of them.
>
> 14) Oh, man... forgot to play with save and print dialogs. Oh well... next
> time.
>
> 15) Decided I had played enough and wanted to reboot. But how. Looked for
> a bit and could not find the option. How odd. Decided to at least log
> out.. and lo and behold the option came up... sort of like how Windows
> combines all the reboot / shut down / log out type options. Not a huge deal
> once you get used to it, but I do not see the logic.
>
like so many other things, it's configurable.
System->Administration->Login screen setup.
> Just a few thoughts... I am sure I am leaving things out. Will play with it
> more later.
>
>
LiveCDs rock.
>
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
"We live in the interface between radioactive molten rock and hard
vacuum and we worry about safety."
-- A friend of Steve Vanevender
B Gruff
> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third
> party burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not
> understand... but, hey, it worked.
OK - and I read your comments.
Now, before we go any further, how about a like-for-like comparison?
You have now downloaded, burned and run a Linux system from a CD,
without changing anything on your computer - what we call a "Live
CD".
I would like to see what the Mac OS looks like on my PC.
Could you point me to the download site so that I can try it?:-)
Bill
Linønut
> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party
> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand...
> but, hey, it worked.
It is nice to see someone try Linux, even if they say it ain't perfect
<grin>.
> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to
> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time,
> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the
> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that is
> odd!
You can also use "date" and "cal" from the command line. The latter can be
very useful for prognostication <grin>.
> 7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and
> the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of
> the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and they
> just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
You can change the whole desktop: Gnome vs. KDE. You can change window
managers: IceWM, XFce, fluxbox, WindowMaker, and lots more. You can change
the window decorations. You can change the user interface coloring and
appearance. There are quite a few user-interface rendering engines to
choose from. For example, the one I'm using now adds depth, marbling, and
reflections to the buttons and toolbars.
> 8) Windows are very Windows like... min, max, close... even the menu on the
> left... not impressive to see them copy Windows like that.
There are a couple of things that Windows doesn't have:
1. A good virtual desktop system
2. Window shading, where you minimize the window in place.
> 10) The help system does not have a search! What the heck! That is
> silly...
There are many help systems. The two I use most are on the command line:
man
info
> 11) It did not recognize, at least not that I could tell, that I had
> inserted my thumb drive. Disappointing.
Automounting is available. Some poeple (such as myself), don't like it, and
don't like devoting clock cycles to it.
> 15) Decided I had played enough and wanted to reboot. But how. Looked for
> a bit and could not find the option. How odd. Decided to at least log
> out.. and lo and behold the option came up... sort of like how Windows
> combines all the reboot / shut down / log out type options. Not a huge deal
> once you get used to it, but I do not see the logic.
It may depend on the window manager you are using.
You can also run the "shutdown" command as root from a command window.
> Just a few thoughts... I am sure I am leaving things out. Will play with it
> more later.
Keep playing. All computer systems, even Mac, I'm sure, have a plethora of
hidden features and gotchas that will keep you happy exploring your
system(s) for months and years.
I still keep running into nifty apps and features.
--
When was the last time you thought about
Microsoft, except in frustration or anger?
-- Michael S. Malone, Silicon Insider
Snit
G7KdndvePNU...@comcast.com on 3/4/05 5:33 AM:
> Snit poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>
>> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party
>> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand...
>> but, hey, it worked.
>
> It is nice to see someone try Linux, even if they say it ain't perfect
> <grin>.
Seems to fit my earlier experiences and my thoughts on it - Linux can be
great for folks who like to tinker or who have it set up by someone who
knows their needs. It takes more tinkering and decision making that either
OS X or XP, but that does allow for greater customization. As people do
tinker a bit, on purpose or even on accident, they may not be able to undo
with they did - this may discourage, for some, the desire to explore.
I, on the other hand, am a tinkerer, so I will enjoy exploring. At the same
time I do not expect to switch from OS X to Linux - I am looking at it to be
able to know which students might benefit from it and to use it as a
non-primary machine.
>
>> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to
>> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time,
>> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the
>> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that is
>> odd!
>
> You can also use "date" and "cal" from the command line. The latter can be
> very useful for prognostication <grin>.
Well, I know you can use the command line tools - and it likely has what OS
X has and more. I am more interested in the GUI tools, though. Nothing
against the command line, and I am happy it is there for when I want or need
it, but for the population I am looking at the OS's for it is not really a
big selling point.
>
>> 7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and
>> the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of
>> the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and they
>> just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
>
> You can change the whole desktop: Gnome vs. KDE. You can change window
> managers: IceWM, XFce, fluxbox, WindowMaker, and lots more. You can change
> the window decorations. You can change the user interface coloring and
> appearance. There are quite a few user-interface rendering engines to
> choose from. For example, the one I'm using now adds depth, marbling, and
> reflections to the buttons and toolbars.
I am sure that once I actually have it installed and am not just playing
with a LiveCD I will be able to play with that more. For now the hardware I
want to put it on is being used for mission important work, so I am not
going to fiddle with it too much.
>
>> 8) Windows are very Windows like... min, max, close... even the menu on the
>> left... not impressive to see them copy Windows like that.
>
> There are a couple of things that Windows doesn't have:
>
> 1. A good virtual desktop system
I know some love this feature - never has done much for me.
> 2. Window shading, where you minimize the window in place.
Yup... Apple "borrowed" that from a shareware package in Classic OS... and
you can get it for OS X.
>
>> 10) The help system does not have a search! What the heck! That is
>> silly...
>
> There are many help systems. The two I use most are on the command line:
>
> man
> info
Yeah, but the GUI help was all but useless. I was quite disappointed with
it - though, again, perhaps there is a more complete help with other
distros. The one I was using was a pre-release... so I can understand the
help being weak. What I did not expect was the GUI help *system* to be so
weak.
>
>> 11) It did not recognize, at least not that I could tell, that I had
>> inserted my thumb drive. Disappointing.
>
> Automounting is available. Some poeple (such as myself), don't like it, and
> don't like devoting clock cycles to it.
Would seem that the default should be to have it on...
>
>> 15) Decided I had played enough and wanted to reboot. But how. Looked for
>> a bit and could not find the option. How odd. Decided to at least log
>> out.. and lo and behold the option came up... sort of like how Windows
>> combines all the reboot / shut down / log out type options. Not a huge deal
>> once you get used to it, but I do not see the logic.
>
> It may depend on the window manager you are using.
>
> You can also run the "shutdown" command as root from a command window.
Yup... but again, CLUI vs. GUI...
>
>> Just a few thoughts... I am sure I am leaving things out. Will play with it
>> more later.
>
> Keep playing. All computer systems, even Mac, I'm sure, have a plethora of
> hidden features and gotchas that will keep you happy exploring your
> system(s) for months and years.
Certainly. I do not pretend that an hour of actual up time with a LiveCD
makes me an expert in modern Linux systems. :)
>
> I still keep running into nifty apps and features.
--
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters." - Alan Simpson
B Gruff
>> There are many help systems. The two I use most are on the command
>> line:
>>
>>man
>>info
>
> Yeah, but the GUI help was all but useless. I was quite
> disappointed with it - though, again, perhaps there is a more
> complete help with other distros.
Put him out of his misery - tell him how to access man from Konq?:-)
Bill
Snit
svllf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/4/05 2:22 AM:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:22:39 -0700,
> Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
>> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party
>> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand...
>> but, hey, it worked.
>
> So the root problem was Apple's difficulty in handling the .iso burning? :)
You can believe that if you wish. :)
>
>> OK, some initial thoughts on my rather limited experience with a modern
>> Linux: Ubuntu/PowerPC_hoary
>>
>> 1) Wow... they sure manage to shove a lot on that one CD. Really very
>> impressive - the whole OS, Firefox, OpenOffice, the Gimp, GAIM, Evolution,
>> etc. Lots of relatively high quality apps... while I have used OpenOffice
>> and the Gimp and find them lacking in relation to MS Office and Photoshop,
>> still cool that they can fit them on one CD and there is no doubt that the
>> applications are good - very good even... just not top of their class.
>>
>> Some of my later complaints may be from them having to make some concessions
>> to get everything on one CD... and just from being a LiveCD
>
> One thing I found when I was using Knoppix at a clients, for an
> extensive time, ( a couple of weeks) it got *faster* as it cached stuff,
> the machines had 512M of ram, and Knoppix really moves with that much
> ram.
>
> After a while, Knoppix, was faster, than running XP from the harddrive
> :) something I found no end of amusement in.
You worked with a LiveCD for a couple of weeks?
>>
>> 2) Had some continued trouble boot - I have dual monitors and Hoary does not
>> seem to like that. Had to boot with the option "linux video=ofonly", which
>> is kindly suggested right on the initial screen. Still, for a computer
>> novice this would have likely been far more stressful than it was for me.
>> The first thing you see is a bunch of text telling you how to deal with
>> possible problems... I can see why, but not sure novice computer folks would
>> be as happy with that as they could be.
>
> Can't recall for sure, but I *think* that Warty (the released version)
> hides all that, with a note at the bottom of the screen to press esc if
> you want all the details during the boot. Hoary is a prerelease, and I
> suspect that most of the folks using it, will be watching the boot, for
> problems. :)
Makes sense, and I should have thought about that. Thanks.
>>
>> 3) Once it did start its boot process it went into a bunch of "DOS" looking
>> text screens with a bright red background. Not sure that was the best
>> choice of color...
>>
>> 4) When it gets past that it shows little icons of what it is loading...
>> sort of like OS 9. :)
>>
>> 5) The mouse was smooth - very smooth. No complaints there! Did not play
>> with the options, but did not feel the need since it was set up by default
>> to be just right. Hmmm, did not test opening tabs in Firefox with my middle
>> mouse button. Presumably that worked, too, but I will test it later.
>
> It's a configurable option in FF IIRC. Don't know if it's default on in
> Hoary.
As long as it is easy to set... not a big deal. Firefox on the Mac does
*not* have that... one of the reasons I do not use it. On Windows Firefox
is about all I do use any more.
>>
>> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to
>> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time,
>
> if you dbl click on the calendar that pops up when you click on the
> clock display, you get Evolution's calendar window, with the day you
> clicked on. Nice integration :)
I had shareware that did that with iCal. Still, good to see it come with
the OS... quite cool.
>
>> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the
>> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that is
>> odd!
>
> Timezones, the LiveCD will grab the time from the hw clock, and (IIRC)
> update it's own time, from the net if pos, but you have to select your
> time zone for the clock displayed on the GNOME menubar to be correct.
> The LiveCD has no way to tell where you are.
Even after I selected the timezone the two times were different.
Pre-release oddity?
>>
>> 7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and
>> the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of
>> the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and they
>> just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
>
> There are, I (for example) use an "Aqua" like skin, the name of which,
> escapes me at the moment. I don't care for Ubuntu's default skin. But
> changing it is simple, System->Preferences->Theme and select one you
> like. Don't know what the LiveCD comes with for themes.
Might play with that next time I boot with it. And, of course, at some
point I hope to actually have a hard drive installed Linux to play with.
>
>> 8) Windows are very Windows like... min, max, close... even the menu on the
>> left... not impressive to see them copy Windows like that.
>
> matter of preferance I suppose. Of course, you can always us a different
> windowmanager, with different button configs, if you chose. But I prefer
> it this way personally.
I did find that I could drag the menu from a maximized window and it would
restore to a regular window. Not sure the value of it, but at least it was
different than Windows. :)
The interface seemed like they borrowed some from Windows, some from Mac,
and then tried to through on all sorts of goodies that may or may not be
helpful.
>>
>> 9) To make changes I had to use my root password... but I had not set one
>> up! Did not see in my quick look in help or docs what the default is.
>> Guessed it on my third try (yeah, I am a freakin' genius, it is "ubuntu
>
> No, you use the password you log in with, Ubuntu uses sudo for
> administration, there is no root password set by default, root can't
> actually log in, on the default config. You'd have to sudo a shell or
> the like to become root.
When I tried to make changes it demanded I enter the root password. That is
all I can really tell you on the subject.
>>
>> 10) The help system does not have a search! What the heck! That is
>> silly...
>
> yeah, I find GNOME's help system to be little help :) It's rather
> resource hungry, and doesn't carry much useful info. Although it does
> bring in the man pages, and that's nice.
If it merely did not have much info I could accept that, esp. on a
pre-release. Help tends to be done late in the game. But to not even let
you search help... that is just silly.
>>
>> 11) It did not recognize, at least not that I could tell, that I had
>> inserted my thumb drive. Disappointing.
>
> Works fine here, might be a PPC issue, don't know. But if you were
> expecting an icon to pop up, that may be turned off. Go to
> System->Preferences->Removeable drives and media, the options are there.
Thanks, will check it out later.
>>
>> 12) There are dual menus... they have a menu on the top sort of like the
>> Mac, but each window is like Windows. You can move and even remove the
>> "panels", which is what they call the Mac like menu area... and you can add
>> more of them if you like.
>
> Yes, including adding things like a dictionary lookup, a file lookup
> tool, a small command line util, address book search, etc. Plus any app
> on the machine. Also, you can add a connect to server applet, which will
> allow you to connect via ftp, sftp, smb, nfs, etc, treats them all as
> part of the filesystem, so you can easily drag and drop files from a
> remote ftp server, to an smb share on another machine. Etc.
Have not played with OS X's Dashboard yet, but that seems to give access in
a more organized way than just having little icons all over. I do like
*some* icons available - such as weather, e-mail, etc... and it was good to
see those were either on by default or easy to find with Linux. No need to
download or install... they were already there. As I said, I was very
impressed with how much came on one CD.
>>
>> 13) Played with applications... they took a while to launch, but, hey, they
>> are all on the CD. Hard to complain. Actually, considering that, they did
>> just fine. Have used OpenOffice before and use Firefox often. They seem
>> just as good in Linux as they do elsewhere.
>
> and there are a whole heck of a lot of them.
On all three OS's - Mac, Windows, and Linux...
>>
>> 14) Oh, man... forgot to play with save and print dialogs. Oh well... next
>> time.
>>
>> 15) Decided I had played enough and wanted to reboot. But how. Looked for
>> a bit and could not find the option. How odd. Decided to at least log
>> out.. and lo and behold the option came up... sort of like how Windows
>> combines all the reboot / shut down / log out type options. Not a huge deal
>> once you get used to it, but I do not see the logic.
>>
>
> like so many other things, it's configurable.
> System->Administration->Login screen setup.
Will look into it.
>
>> Just a few thoughts... I am sure I am leaving things out. Will play with it
>> more later.
>
> LiveCDs rock.
No argument here. Even with the little gotchas that I ran into, overall I
would say that the one modern Linux I tried was impressive. Would need to
use it for a while to really form any solid opinions.
--
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters." - Alan Simpson
_________________________________________
news
Where can I download this from?
thanks
andy
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 06:33:22 -0600,
Linųnut <linųn...@bone.com> wrote:
> Snit poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>
>> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party
>> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand...
>> but, hey, it worked.
>
> It is nice to see someone try Linux, even if they say it ain't perfect
><grin>.
>
more like, it's nice to see someone trying it without slagging it
because it *isn't* perfect. I for one, don't expect perfection, simply
that it be better than the last time, and better than the alternatives.
>> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to
>> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time,
>> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the
>> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that is
>> odd!
>
> You can also use "date" and "cal" from the command line. The latter can be
> very useful for prognostication <grin>.
>
>> 7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and
>> the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of
>> the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and they
>> just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
>
> You can change the whole desktop: Gnome vs. KDE. You can change window
> managers: IceWM, XFce, fluxbox, WindowMaker, and lots more. You can change
> the window decorations. You can change the user interface coloring and
> appearance. There are quite a few user-interface rendering engines to
> choose from. For example, the one I'm using now adds depth, marbling, and
> reflections to the buttons and toolbars.
>
Well, changing that stuff on the LiveCD is sometimes limited, due to
space and read only constraints. Of course, you can allways update the
system on the machine, without saving to disk, you just lose that data
later.
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
"We are a nation of laws, poorly written and randomly enforced."
-- Frank Zappa
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:37:54 -0700,
Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
> svllf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/4/05 2:22 AM:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:22:39 -0700,
>> Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
>>> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party
>>> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand...
>>> but, hey, it worked.
>>
>> So the root problem was Apple's difficulty in handling the .iso burning? :)
>
> You can believe that if you wish. :)
>>
what else could it be? was the iso not following the iso spec or
something?
>>> OK, some initial thoughts on my rather limited experience with a modern
>>> Linux: Ubuntu/PowerPC_hoary
>>>
>>> 1) Wow... they sure manage to shove a lot on that one CD. Really very
>>> impressive - the whole OS, Firefox, OpenOffice, the Gimp, GAIM, Evolution,
>>> etc. Lots of relatively high quality apps... while I have used OpenOffice
>>> and the Gimp and find them lacking in relation to MS Office and Photoshop,
>>> still cool that they can fit them on one CD and there is no doubt that the
>>> applications are good - very good even... just not top of their class.
>>>
>>> Some of my later complaints may be from them having to make some concessions
>>> to get everything on one CD... and just from being a LiveCD
>>
>> One thing I found when I was using Knoppix at a clients, for an
>> extensive time, ( a couple of weeks) it got *faster* as it cached stuff,
>> the machines had 512M of ram, and Knoppix really moves with that much
>> ram.
>>
>> After a while, Knoppix, was faster, than running XP from the harddrive
>> :) something I found no end of amusement in.
>
> You worked with a LiveCD for a couple of weeks?
yes. I used Knoppix, and saved configs and work, to a thumbdrive. Worked
very well. Also saved work to shared folder on the server.
considering Mac doesn't come with a 3 button mouse, I suppose it's not
too surprising that FF doesn't require it.
>>>
>>> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to
>>> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time,
>>
>> if you dbl click on the calendar that pops up when you click on the
>> clock display, you get Evolution's calendar window, with the day you
>> clicked on. Nice integration :)
>
> I had shareware that did that with iCal. Still, good to see it come with
> the OS... quite cool.
IIRC, Evolution will happily interface with ical calendars.
>>
>>> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the
>>> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that is
>>> odd!
>>
>> Timezones, the LiveCD will grab the time from the hw clock, and (IIRC)
>> update it's own time, from the net if pos, but you have to select your
>> time zone for the clock displayed on the GNOME menubar to be correct.
>> The LiveCD has no way to tell where you are.
>
> Even after I selected the timezone the two times were different.
> Pre-release oddity?
>>>
Possibly, sounds like a bug.
>>> 7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and
>>> the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of
>>> the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and they
>>> just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
>>
>> There are, I (for example) use an "Aqua" like skin, the name of which,
>> escapes me at the moment. I don't care for Ubuntu's default skin. But
>> changing it is simple, System->Preferences->Theme and select one you
>> like. Don't know what the LiveCD comes with for themes.
>
> Might play with that next time I boot with it. And, of course, at some
> point I hope to actually have a hard drive installed Linux to play with.
>>
:)
>>> 8) Windows are very Windows like... min, max, close... even the menu on the
>>> left... not impressive to see them copy Windows like that.
>>
>> matter of preferance I suppose. Of course, you can always us a different
>> windowmanager, with different button configs, if you chose. But I prefer
>> it this way personally.
>
> I did find that I could drag the menu from a maximized window and it would
> restore to a regular window. Not sure the value of it, but at least it was
> different than Windows. :)
>
It's easier, it works the other way too, if you select maximise in the
title bar options (rt click on title bar) then you can unmax the window
by dragging it down from the top, and remax it, by dragging it up.
> The interface seemed like they borrowed some from Windows, some from Mac,
> and then tried to through on all sorts of goodies that may or may not be
> helpful.
GNOME has done some significant UI testing, it's different than OSX in
many ways, but personally, I feel that most of them are improvements
over OSX, which is, IMHO, working on assumptions from another era. OSX
seems to focus on newbies, at the expense of what happens after they are
no longer newbies. GNOME has a better balance between coddling, and
enabline (again, IMO)
>>>
>>> 9) To make changes I had to use my root password... but I had not set one
>>> up! Did not see in my quick look in help or docs what the default is.
>>> Guessed it on my third try (yeah, I am a freakin' genius, it is "ubuntu
>>
>> No, you use the password you log in with, Ubuntu uses sudo for
>> administration, there is no root password set by default, root can't
>> actually log in, on the default config. You'd have to sudo a shell or
>> the like to become root.
>
> When I tried to make changes it demanded I enter the root password. That is
> all I can really tell you on the subject.
that's a bug then. Ubuntu is trying to go entirely sudo for admin.
Although it's possible that this is an oddity of the LiveCD. IIRC, for
now, the LiveCD uses Morphix as a base, and not Ubuntu's setup. So
that's probably the diff.
>>>
>>> 10) The help system does not have a search! What the heck! That is
>>> silly...
>>
>> yeah, I find GNOME's help system to be little help :) It's rather
>> resource hungry, and doesn't carry much useful info. Although it does
>> bring in the man pages, and that's nice.
>
> If it merely did not have much info I could accept that, esp. on a
> pre-release. Help tends to be done late in the game. But to not even let
> you search help... that is just silly.
Yes.
>>>
>>> 11) It did not recognize, at least not that I could tell, that I had
>>> inserted my thumb drive. Disappointing.
>>
>> Works fine here, might be a PPC issue, don't know. But if you were
>> expecting an icon to pop up, that may be turned off. Go to
>> System->Preferences->Removeable drives and media, the options are there.
>
> Thanks, will check it out later.
also, you can check the Places->Computer menu selection, and look for
the flashdrive there. Mine pops up as "LEXAR MEDIA" which causes some
grief with some of the cli tools, due to the space.
>>>
>>> 12) There are dual menus... they have a menu on the top sort of like the
>>> Mac, but each window is like Windows. You can move and even remove the
>>> "panels", which is what they call the Mac like menu area... and you can add
>>> more of them if you like.
>>
>> Yes, including adding things like a dictionary lookup, a file lookup
>> tool, a small command line util, address book search, etc. Plus any app
>> on the machine. Also, you can add a connect to server applet, which will
>> allow you to connect via ftp, sftp, smb, nfs, etc, treats them all as
>> part of the filesystem, so you can easily drag and drop files from a
>> remote ftp server, to an smb share on another machine. Etc.
>
> Have not played with OS X's Dashboard yet, but that seems to give access in
> a more organized way than just having little icons all over. I do like
> *some* icons available - such as weather, e-mail, etc... and it was good to
> see those were either on by default or easy to find with Linux. No need to
> download or install... they were already there. As I said, I was very
> impressed with how much came on one CD.
I am unsure of what you mean by "little icons all over" what are we
talking about? the dock at the foot of the screen? You can add things
there, including menus (the foot is a menu, if you hadn't found that
yet.) rt click on the dock, (on something other than an existing icon,
the hide/unhide button works if the dock is crowded) then select add to
panel, and follow from there. Including menus containing sections, like
games, or internet, etc.
>>>
>>> 13) Played with applications... they took a while to launch, but, hey, they
>>> are all on the CD. Hard to complain. Actually, considering that, they did
>>> just fine. Have used OpenOffice before and use Firefox often. They seem
>>> just as good in Linux as they do elsewhere.
>>
>> and there are a whole heck of a lot of them.
>
> On all three OS's - Mac, Windows, and Linux...
actually, I was referring to the LiveCD's contents. Even the little ones
like DSL, which fits into a 50MB business card CD. Linux is *king* of
the LiveCDs, no question there at all.
>>>
>>> 14) Oh, man... forgot to play with save and print dialogs. Oh well... next
>>> time.
>>>
>>> 15) Decided I had played enough and wanted to reboot. But how. Looked for
>>> a bit and could not find the option. How odd. Decided to at least log
>>> out.. and lo and behold the option came up... sort of like how Windows
>>> combines all the reboot / shut down / log out type options. Not a huge deal
>>> once you get used to it, but I do not see the logic.
>>>
>>
>> like so many other things, it's configurable.
>> System->Administration->Login screen setup.
>
> Will look into it.
>>
>>> Just a few thoughts... I am sure I am leaving things out. Will play with it
>>> more later.
>>
>> LiveCDs rock.
>
> No argument here. Even with the little gotchas that I ran into, overall I
> would say that the one modern Linux I tried was impressive. Would need to
> use it for a while to really form any solid opinions.
>
Yeah, that's the only way to get a good feel for something like this.
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
The race isn't always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong,
But it's the safest way to bet.
Snit
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:37:54 -0700,
> Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
>> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
>> svllf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/4/05 2:22 AM:
>>
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:22:39 -0700,
>>> Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
>>>> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party
>>>> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand...
>>>> but, hey, it worked.
>>>
>>> So the root problem was Apple's difficulty in handling the .iso burning? :)
>>
>> You can believe that if you wish. :)
>>>
>
> what else could it be? was the iso not following the iso spec or
> something?
It did not work with the mostly likely tool for it to be used with. I do
not know who did or did not follow the spec.
>
>>>> OK, some initial thoughts on my rather limited experience with a modern
>>>> Linux: Ubuntu/PowerPC_hoary
>>>>
>>>> 1) Wow... they sure manage to shove a lot on that one CD. Really very
>>>> impressive - the whole OS, Firefox, OpenOffice, the Gimp, GAIM, Evolution,
>>>> etc. Lots of relatively high quality apps... while I have used OpenOffice
>>>> and the Gimp and find them lacking in relation to MS Office and Photoshop,
>>>> still cool that they can fit them on one CD and there is no doubt that the
>>>> applications are good - very good even... just not top of their class.
>>>>
>>>> Some of my later complaints may be from them having to make some
>>>> concessions
>>>> to get everything on one CD... and just from being a LiveCD
>>>
>>> One thing I found when I was using Knoppix at a clients, for an
>>> extensive time, ( a couple of weeks) it got *faster* as it cached stuff,
>>> the machines had 512M of ram, and Knoppix really moves with that much
>>> ram.
>>>
>>> After a while, Knoppix, was faster, than running XP from the harddrive
>>> :) something I found no end of amusement in.
>>
>> You worked with a LiveCD for a couple of weeks?
>
> yes. I used Knoppix, and saved configs and work, to a thumbdrive. Worked
> very well. Also saved work to shared folder on the server.
Very cool...
Well, FF does not require it anywhere, but it does support it. Wish it did
on OS X.
>
>>>>
>>>> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to
>>>> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time,
>>>
>>> if you dbl click on the calendar that pops up when you click on the
>>> clock display, you get Evolution's calendar window, with the day you
>>> clicked on. Nice integration :)
>>
>> I had shareware that did that with iCal. Still, good to see it come with
>> the OS... quite cool.
>
> IIRC, Evolution will happily interface with ical calendars.
Also cool.
>
>>>
>>>> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the
>>>> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that
>>>> is
>>>> odd!
>>>
>>> Timezones, the LiveCD will grab the time from the hw clock, and (IIRC)
>>> update it's own time, from the net if pos, but you have to select your
>>> time zone for the clock displayed on the GNOME menubar to be correct.
>>> The LiveCD has no way to tell where you are.
>>
>> Even after I selected the timezone the two times were different.
>> Pre-release oddity?
>>>>
>
> Possibly, sounds like a bug.
Seemed that way to me... but when you use pre-release software that is to be
expected.
>
>>>> 7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and
>>>> the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of
>>>> the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and
>>>> they
>>>> just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
>>>
>>> There are, I (for example) use an "Aqua" like skin, the name of which,
>>> escapes me at the moment. I don't care for Ubuntu's default skin. But
>>> changing it is simple, System->Preferences->Theme and select one you
>>> like. Don't know what the LiveCD comes with for themes.
>>
>> Might play with that next time I boot with it. And, of course, at some
>> point I hope to actually have a hard drive installed Linux to play with.
>>>
>
> :)
>
>
>>>> 8) Windows are very Windows like... min, max, close... even the menu on the
>>>> left... not impressive to see them copy Windows like that.
>>>
>>> matter of preferance I suppose. Of course, you can always us a different
>>> windowmanager, with different button configs, if you chose. But I prefer
>>> it this way personally.
>>
>> I did find that I could drag the menu from a maximized window and it would
>> restore to a regular window. Not sure the value of it, but at least it was
>> different than Windows. :)
>>
>
> It's easier, it works the other way too, if you select maximise in the
> title bar options (rt click on title bar) then you can unmax the window
> by dragging it down from the top, and remax it, by dragging it up.
Not sure how much I would use this, but do not see what it hurts, either.
:)
>
>> The interface seemed like they borrowed some from Windows, some from Mac,
>> and then tried to through on all sorts of goodies that may or may not be
>> helpful.
>
> GNOME has done some significant UI testing, it's different than OSX in
> many ways, but personally, I feel that most of them are improvements
> over OSX, which is, IMHO, working on assumptions from another era. OSX
> seems to focus on newbies, at the expense of what happens after they are
> no longer newbies. GNOME has a better balance between coddling, and
> enabline (again, IMO)
Linux in general is focused more on folks who like to tinker - nothing wrong
with that, just a somewhat different focus than OS X which is designed for
people who just want it to work out of the box. Sure, you can personalize
OS X, but it is not the tinkerers paradise like Linux is.
>
>
>>>>
>>>> 9) To make changes I had to use my root password... but I had not set one
>>>> up! Did not see in my quick look in help or docs what the default is.
>>>> Guessed it on my third try (yeah, I am a freakin' genius, it is "ubuntu
>>>
>>> No, you use the password you log in with, Ubuntu uses sudo for
>>> administration, there is no root password set by default, root can't
>>> actually log in, on the default config. You'd have to sudo a shell or
>>> the like to become root.
>>
>> When I tried to make changes it demanded I enter the root password. That is
>> all I can really tell you on the subject.
>
> that's a bug then. Ubuntu is trying to go entirely sudo for admin.
> Although it's possible that this is an oddity of the LiveCD. IIRC, for
> now, the LiveCD uses Morphix as a base, and not Ubuntu's setup. So
> that's probably the diff.
Could be...
The docks on top and bottom - which also act as menus. They seem a bit of a
catch-all to me.
> You can add things there, including menus (the foot is a menu, if you hadn't
> found that yet.) rt click on the dock, (on something other than an existing
> icon, the hide/unhide button works if the dock is crowded) then select add to
> panel, and follow from there. Including menus containing sections, like games,
> or internet, etc.
>
>>>>
>>>> 13) Played with applications... they took a while to launch, but, hey, they
>>>> are all on the CD. Hard to complain. Actually, considering that, they did
>>>> just fine. Have used OpenOffice before and use Firefox often. They seem
>>>> just as good in Linux as they do elsewhere.
>>>
>>> and there are a whole heck of a lot of them.
>>
>> On all three OS's - Mac, Windows, and Linux...
>
> actually, I was referring to the LiveCD's contents. Even the little ones
> like DSL, which fits into a 50MB business card CD. Linux is *king* of
> the LiveCDs, no question there at all.
No question at all? Hold on...
[crickets chirping]
Ok. No question at all. :)
>
>>>>
>>>> 14) Oh, man... forgot to play with save and print dialogs. Oh well... next
>>>> time.
>>>>
>>>> 15) Decided I had played enough and wanted to reboot. But how. Looked for
>>>> a bit and could not find the option. How odd. Decided to at least log
>>>> out.. and lo and behold the option came up... sort of like how Windows
>>>> combines all the reboot / shut down / log out type options. Not a huge
>>>> deal
>>>> once you get used to it, but I do not see the logic.
>>>>
>>>
>>> like so many other things, it's configurable.
>>> System->Administration->Login screen setup.
>>
>> Will look into it.
>>>
>>>> Just a few thoughts... I am sure I am leaving things out. Will play with
>>>> it
>>>> more later.
>>>
>>> LiveCDs rock.
>>
>> No argument here. Even with the little gotchas that I ran into, overall I
>> would say that the one modern Linux I tried was impressive. Would need to
>> use it for a while to really form any solid opinions.
>>
>
> Yeah, that's the only way to get a good feel for something like this.
You mean I can not just base it on a Google search for screen shots? :)
--
Look, this is silly. It's not an argument, it's an armor plated walrus with
walnut paneling and an all leather interior.
_________________________________________
Snit
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 06:33:22 -0600,
> Linųnut <linųn...@bone.com> wrote:
>> Snit poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>>
>>> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party
>>> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand...
>>> but, hey, it worked.
>>
>> It is nice to see someone try Linux, even if they say it ain't perfect
>> <grin>.
>>
>
> more like, it's nice to see someone trying it without slagging it
> because it *isn't* perfect. I for one, don't expect perfection, simply
> that it be better than the last time, and better than the alternatives.
I do not even ask for it to be better than the alternatives - just something
I would be comfortable to use from time to time and would be able to
recommend to students / clients looking to get away from MS. Or Apple.
I prefer OS X and do not see that changing - though who knows what I will
find as I spend more time with Linux. To me, however, it is not a contest
to see which is best. While I prefer OS X overall right now, there are
things I prefer to do on XP. With time, I suspect there will be things I
prefer to do on Linux... and people I suggest Linux to as the best choice
for them.
>
>>> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to
>>> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time,
>>> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the
>>> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that is
>>> odd!
>>
>> You can also use "date" and "cal" from the command line. The latter can be
>> very useful for prognostication <grin>.
>>
>>> 7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and
>>> the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of
>>> the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and they
>>> just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
>>
>> You can change the whole desktop: Gnome vs. KDE. You can change window
>> managers: IceWM, XFce, fluxbox, WindowMaker, and lots more. You can change
>> the window decorations. You can change the user interface coloring and
>> appearance. There are quite a few user-interface rendering engines to
>> choose from. For example, the one I'm using now adds depth, marbling, and
>> reflections to the buttons and toolbars.
>>
>
> Well, changing that stuff on the LiveCD is sometimes limited, due to
> space and read only constraints. Of course, you can allways update the
> system on the machine, without saving to disk, you just lose that data
> later.
What if I get a CD RW? :)
--
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters." - Alan Simpson
_________________________________________
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 13:42:18 -0700,
Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
> 7oqmf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/4/05 12:49 PM:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:37:54 -0700,
>> Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
>>> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
>>> svllf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/4/05 2:22 AM:
>>>
>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:22:39 -0700,
>>>> Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
>>>>> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party
>>>>> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand...
>>>>> but, hey, it worked.
>>>>
>>>> So the root problem was Apple's difficulty in handling the .iso burning? :)
>>>
>>> You can believe that if you wish. :)
>>>>
>>
>> what else could it be? was the iso not following the iso spec or
>> something?
>
> It did not work with the mostly likely tool for it to be used with. I do
> not know who did or did not follow the spec.
It works fine with the tools I have, and with the tools you can install
via fink. Would it be better if it worked with Apple's builtins? yes, but
before you can assign "blame" you have to know what the cause of the
problem is. Maybe Apple is pulling a redmond and crippled them
deliberately (unlikely, but a possibility) I have seen many messages
discussing the failure of Apple's tools to perform this task, but none
that show what the actual problem is caused by.
>>
>>>>> OK, some initial thoughts on my rather limited experience with a modern
>>>>> Linux: Ubuntu/PowerPC_hoary
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Wow... they sure manage to shove a lot on that one CD. Really very
>>>>> impressive - the whole OS, Firefox, OpenOffice, the Gimp, GAIM, Evolution,
>>>>> etc. Lots of relatively high quality apps... while I have used OpenOffice
>>>>> and the Gimp and find them lacking in relation to MS Office and Photoshop,
>>>>> still cool that they can fit them on one CD and there is no doubt that the
>>>>> applications are good - very good even... just not top of their class.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of my later complaints may be from them having to make some
>>>>> concessions
>>>>> to get everything on one CD... and just from being a LiveCD
>>>>
>>>> One thing I found when I was using Knoppix at a clients, for an
>>>> extensive time, ( a couple of weeks) it got *faster* as it cached stuff,
>>>> the machines had 512M of ram, and Knoppix really moves with that much
>>>> ram.
>>>>
>>>> After a while, Knoppix, was faster, than running XP from the harddrive
>>>> :) something I found no end of amusement in.
>>>
>>> You worked with a LiveCD for a couple of weeks?
>>
>> yes. I used Knoppix, and saved configs and work, to a thumbdrive. Worked
>> very well. Also saved work to shared folder on the server.
>
> Very cool...
yeah, it saved me from having to either drag in a laptop, or use
<shudder> XP to do the work. (which would have involved a lot of extra
tool downloads, and more involvement with that OS than I like to have.)
>>
>>> As long as it is easy to set... not a big deal. Firefox on the Mac does
>>> *not* have that... one of the reasons I do not use it. On Windows Firefox
>>> is about all I do use any more.
>>
>> considering Mac doesn't come with a 3 button mouse, I suppose it's not
>> too surprising that FF doesn't require it.
>
> Well, FF does not require it anywhere, but it does support it. Wish it did
> on OS X.
Agreed, it should at least be an option. For those who aren't limited to
a one button hand :)
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to
>>>>> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time,
>>>>
>>>> if you dbl click on the calendar that pops up when you click on the
>>>> clock display, you get Evolution's calendar window, with the day you
>>>> clicked on. Nice integration :)
>>>
>>> I had shareware that did that with iCal. Still, good to see it come with
>>> the OS... quite cool.
>>
>> IIRC, Evolution will happily interface with ical calendars.
>
> Also cool.
:) Evolution now does Usenet, although I haven't used it for such yet.
I'll probably play with it later. I am starting to like it for mail,
although Mutt is still my fav there. More polished functionality than
anything else I have encountered (mutt that is)
>>
>>>>
>>>>> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the
>>>>> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that
>>>>> is
>>>>> odd!
>>>>
>>>> Timezones, the LiveCD will grab the time from the hw clock, and (IIRC)
>>>> update it's own time, from the net if pos, but you have to select your
>>>> time zone for the clock displayed on the GNOME menubar to be correct.
>>>> The LiveCD has no way to tell where you are.
>>>
>>> Even after I selected the timezone the two times were different.
>>> Pre-release oddity?
>>>>>
>>
>> Possibly, sounds like a bug.
>
> Seemed that way to me... but when you use pre-release software that is to be
> expected.
I think it's more to do with the LiveCD maybe. I am using Hoary here,
and don't have the problem, but this is x86, and installed to HD, so
there are some significant differences, especially in the way x86
handles the clock.
<snip>
>>>> matter of preferance I suppose. Of course, you can always us a different
>>>> windowmanager, with different button configs, if you chose. But I prefer
>>>> it this way personally.
>>>
>>> I did find that I could drag the menu from a maximized window and it would
>>> restore to a regular window. Not sure the value of it, but at least it was
>>> different than Windows. :)
>>>
>>
>> It's easier, it works the other way too, if you select maximise in the
>> title bar options (rt click on title bar) then you can unmax the window
>> by dragging it down from the top, and remax it, by dragging it up.
>
> Not sure how much I would use this, but do not see what it hurts, either.
>:)
>>
>>> The interface seemed like they borrowed some from Windows, some from Mac,
>>> and then tried to through on all sorts of goodies that may or may not be
>>> helpful.
>>
>> GNOME has done some significant UI testing, it's different than OSX in
>> many ways, but personally, I feel that most of them are improvements
>> over OSX, which is, IMHO, working on assumptions from another era. OSX
>> seems to focus on newbies, at the expense of what happens after they are
>> no longer newbies. GNOME has a better balance between coddling, and
>> enabline (again, IMO)
>
> Linux in general is focused more on folks who like to tinker - nothing wrong
> with that, just a somewhat different focus than OS X which is designed for
> people who just want it to work out of the box. Sure, you can personalize
> OS XA, but it is not the tinkerers paradise like Linux is.
I think that has been true in the past, and is still, with many distros.
But there are many distros that don't require, or even encourage, such
tinkering. That come set up from the gitgo. Ubuntu being one of them.
Now, like most, you *can* tinker, but it's not required.
<snip>
>>> Have not played with OS X's Dashboard yet, but that seems to give access in
>>> a more organized way than just having little icons all over. I do like
>>> *some* icons available - such as weather, e-mail, etc... and it was good to
>>> see those were either on by default or easy to find with Linux. No need to
>>> download or install... they were already there. As I said, I was very
>>> impressed with how much came on one CD.
>>
>> I am unsure of what you mean by "little icons all over" what are we
>> talking about? the dock at the foot of the screen?
>
> The docks on top and bottom - which also act as menus. They seem a bit of a
> catch-all to me.
>
You can remove either or both. (not much point to GNOME if you remove
both, but the option's there. ) The top menu bar reminds me somewhat of
the old finder, but I didn't use MacOS much when I had one, mostly Beos
and Linux :)
>
<snip>
>> actually, I was referring to the LiveCD's contents. Even the little ones
>> like DSL, which fits into a 50MB business card CD. Linux is *king* of
>> the LiveCDs, no question there at all.
>
> No question at all? Hold on...
>
>
>
>
> [crickets chirping]
>
>
>
>
>
> Ok. No question at all. :)
:)
There are a couple of *BSD liveCDs, but they pale in comparison to the
Knoppix and other ones available for Linux, their hw detection is far
less effective, they are geared even more than most Linux distro's to
the "hard core" *Nix folks. I think there's an example XP liveCD, but
again, it lacks much in the way of HW support, and can't be distributed
so it's hard to test.
>>
>>> No argument here. Even with the little gotchas that I ran into, overall I
>>> would say that the one modern Linux I tried was impressive. Would need to
>>> use it for a while to really form any solid opinions.
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, that's the only way to get a good feel for something like this.
>
> You mean I can not just base it on a Google search for screen shots? :)
>
well, you *can*, but it's not very helpful :)
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
One man's 'magic' is another man's engineering. 'Supernatural' is a null
word.
-- Lazarus Long
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
it's good to know about the alternatives, and of course, everything in
life is a compromise, even Linux :) some things need improving before
they are really usable. See early versions of Evolution for one such
example :) It has matured well.
>>
>>>> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to
>>>> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time,
>>>> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the
>>>> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that is
>>>> odd!
>>>
>>> You can also use "date" and "cal" from the command line. The latter can be
>>> very useful for prognostication <grin>.
>>>
>>>> 7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and
>>>> the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of
>>>> the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and they
>>>> just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
>>>
>>> You can change the whole desktop: Gnome vs. KDE. You can change window
>>> managers: IceWM, XFce, fluxbox, WindowMaker, and lots more. You can change
>>> the window decorations. You can change the user interface coloring and
>>> appearance. There are quite a few user-interface rendering engines to
>>> choose from. For example, the one I'm using now adds depth, marbling, and
>>> reflections to the buttons and toolbars.
>>>
>>
>> Well, changing that stuff on the LiveCD is sometimes limited, due to
>> space and read only constraints. Of course, you can allways update the
>> system on the machine, without saving to disk, you just lose that data
>> later.
>
> What if I get a CD RW? :)
>
You can remaster Knoppix quite easily, and there are "build your own
LiveCD" tools for Debian and other distros. Debian has a particularly
nice setup, which allows you to duplicate an existing system, on a
LiveCD, (or series of CDs if there's too much stuff for one. Don't know
if it will do a LiveDVD yet)
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Payday came and with it beer.
-- Rudyard Kipling
Snit
>>>>> Snit poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>>>>
>>>>> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party
>>>>> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand...
>>>>> but, hey, it worked.
>>>>
>>>> It is nice to see someone try Linux, even if they say it ain't perfect
>>>> <grin>.
>>>
>>> more like, it's nice to see someone trying it without slagging it
>>> because it *isn't* perfect. I for one, don't expect perfection, simply
>>> that it be better than the last time, and better than the alternatives.
>>
>> I do not even ask for it to be better than the alternatives - just something
>> I would be comfortable to use from time to time and would be able to
>> recommend to students / clients looking to get away from MS. Or Apple.
>>
>> I prefer OS X and do not see that changing - though who knows what I will
>> find as I spend more time with Linux. To me, however, it is not a contest
>> to see which is best. While I prefer OS X overall right now, there are
>> things I prefer to do on XP. With time, I suspect there will be things I
>> prefer to do on Linux... and people I suggest Linux to as the best choice
>> for them.
>
> it's good to know about the alternatives, and of course, everything in
> life is a compromise, even Linux :) some things need improving before
> they are really usable. See early versions of Evolution for one such
> example :) It has matured well.
Even if I end up not liking or using Linux I think I will be better off
knowing it at least passably well - which right now I do not. Just as one
learns their own language better as they learn foreign languages, I will
learn OS X better as I learn Linux.
And even if I never learn to love Linux, that does not imply that I think
others should not use it or like it. I would like to know when it is
appropriate to suggest Linux to students / clients. At this point it is
largely based on hearsay.
>>>> You can change the whole desktop: Gnome vs. KDE. You can change window
>>>> managers: IceWM, XFce, fluxbox, WindowMaker, and lots more. You can
>>>> change the window decorations. You can change the user interface coloring
>>>> and appearance. There are quite a few user-interface rendering engines to
>>>> choose from. For example, the one I'm using now adds depth, marbling, and
>>>> reflections to the buttons and toolbars.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well, changing that stuff on the LiveCD is sometimes limited, due to space
>>> and read only constraints. Of course, you can allways update the system on
>>> the machine, without saving to disk, you just lose that data later.
>>>
>> What if I get a CD RW? :)
>
> You can remaster Knoppix quite easily, and there are "build your own
> LiveCD" tools for Debian and other distros. Debian has a particularly
> nice setup, which allows you to duplicate an existing system, on a
> LiveCD, (or series of CDs if there's too much stuff for one. Don't know
> if it will do a LiveDVD yet)
Thanks...
--
Look, this is silly. It's not an argument, it's an armor plated walrus with
walnut paneling and an all leather interior.
_________________________________________
Snit
>>>>>> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party
>>>>>> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not
>>>>>> understand... but, hey, it worked.
>>>>>>
>>>>> So the root problem was Apple's difficulty in handling the .iso burning?
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>> You can believe that if you wish. :)
>>>>
>>>
>>> what else could it be? was the iso not following the iso spec or something?
>>>
>> It did not work with the mostly likely tool for it to be used with. I do not
>> know who did or did not follow the spec.
>
> It works fine with the tools I have, and with the tools you can install
> via fink. Would it be better if it worked with Apple's builtins? yes, but
> before you can assign "blame" you have to know what the cause of the
> problem is. Maybe Apple is pulling a redmond and crippled them
> deliberately (unlikely, but a possibility) I have seen many messages
> discussing the failure of Apple's tools to perform this task, but none
> that show what the actual problem is caused by.
Oh, if recent older versions of Apple's utilities worked and the new ones do
not I certainly would not blame the folks who make the ISO. I have seen
nothing to suggest that is the case, however.
>>>> You worked with a LiveCD for a couple of weeks?
>>>
>>> yes. I used Knoppix, and saved configs and work, to a thumbdrive. Worked
>>> very well. Also saved work to shared folder on the server.
>>
>> Very cool...
>
> yeah, it saved me from having to either drag in a laptop, or use
> <shudder> XP to do the work. (which would have involved a lot of extra
> tool downloads, and more involvement with that OS than I like to have.)
Burns your fingers, eh?
I do not like XP very much, but I teach it to college students - and teach
on it when I am teaching other programs. I do not know all of the reg hacks
that the real XP geeks know, but as far as general use I generally know it
better than the XP fans in CSMA. Drives them crazy when I point out the
many, many weaknesses in XP. I recently did a comparison of dialogs, and XP
does not fare too well. At some point I will likely add a specific distro
of Linux with some front end... but there are just too many choices in Linux
to do a "fair" comparison.
If you care and missed it from before, here is the comparison:
http://myweb.cableone.net/snit/csma/interface/dialogs/
I also recently pointed out a bug in folder creation on XP - one that is
likely not a big deal for any regular in CSMA or COLA, but one that could
slow down a new user - perhaps greatly:
http://myweb.cableone.net/snit/csma/interface/New_Folder/
I find it funny that some of the XP supporters were not even able to
understand the bug. They just sunk to trolling and flaming...
>>>
>>>> As long as it is easy to set... not a big deal. Firefox on the Mac does
>>>> *not* have that... one of the reasons I do not use it. On Windows Firefox
>>>> is about all I do use any more.
>>>
>>> considering Mac doesn't come with a 3 button mouse, I suppose it's not
>>> too surprising that FF doesn't require it.
>>
>> Well, FF does not require it anywhere, but it does support it. Wish it did
>> on OS X.
>
> Agreed, it should at least be an option. For those who aren't limited to
> a one button hand :)
Yup.
>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to
>>>>>> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time,
>>>>>
>>>>> if you dbl click on the calendar that pops up when you click on the
>>>>> clock display, you get Evolution's calendar window, with the day you
>>>>> clicked on. Nice integration :)
>>>>
>>>> I had shareware that did that with iCal. Still, good to see it come with
>>>> the OS... quite cool.
>>>
>>> IIRC, Evolution will happily interface with ical calendars.
>>
>> Also cool.
>
> :) Evolution now does Usenet, although I haven't used it for such yet.
> I'll probably play with it later. I am starting to like it for mail,
> although Mutt is still my fav there. More polished functionality than
> anything else I have encountered (mutt that is)
Will add that to my list of programs to play with... if I ever get a chance.
>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the
>>>>>> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that
>>>>>> is odd!
>>>>>>
>>>>> Timezones, the LiveCD will grab the time from the hw clock, and (IIRC)
>>>>> update it's own time, from the net if pos, but you have to select your
>>>>> time zone for the clock displayed on the GNOME menubar to be correct. The
>>>>> LiveCD has no way to tell where you are.
>>>>>
>>>> Even after I selected the timezone the two times were different.
>>>> Pre-release oddity?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Possibly, sounds like a bug.
>>>
>> Seemed that way to me... but when you use pre-release software that is to be
>> expected.
>
> I think it's more to do with the LiveCD maybe. I am using Hoary here,
> and don't have the problem, but this is x86, and installed to HD, so
> there are some significant differences, especially in the way x86
> handles the clock.
Makes sense. I noted the bug and figured it was some quirk that would not
exist on a full install. I can not image that being the norm.
Even with Ubunto I found that one "bad" right click choice and things had to
be "fixed". Sure, I broke it (well, played with it - others would see it as
broken).
>
> <snip>
>
>>>> Have not played with OS X's Dashboard yet, but that seems to give access in
>>>> a more organized way than just having little icons all over. I do like
>>>> *some* icons available - such as weather, e-mail, etc... and it was good to
>>>> see those were either on by default or easy to find with Linux. No need to
>>>> download or install... they were already there. As I said, I was very
>>>> impressed with how much came on one CD.
>>>
>>> I am unsure of what you mean by "little icons all over" what are we
>>> talking about? the dock at the foot of the screen?
>>
>> The docks on top and bottom - which also act as menus. They seem a bit of a
>> catch-all to me.
>
> You can remove either or both. (not much point to GNOME if you remove
> both, but the option's there. ) The top menu bar reminds me somewhat of
> the old finder, but I didn't use MacOS much when I had one, mostly Beos
> and Linux :)
OK, I did not remove all bars... how would I get one back if I had? Would I
have to open the drive and dig for a program somewhere?
>
>>
>
> <snip>
>
>>> actually, I was referring to the LiveCD's contents. Even the little ones
>>> like DSL, which fits into a 50MB business card CD. Linux is *king* of
>>> the LiveCDs, no question there at all.
>>
>> No question at all? Hold on...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [crickets chirping]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ok. No question at all. :)
>
>
> :)
>
> There are a couple of *BSD liveCDs, but they pale in comparison to the
> Knoppix and other ones available for Linux, their hw detection is far
> less effective, they are geared even more than most Linux distro's to
> the "hard core" *Nix folks. I think there's an example XP liveCD, but
> again, it lacks much in the way of HW support, and can't be distributed
> so it's hard to test.
And, of course, it is XP. That is a downside in itself. :)
>>>
>>>> No argument here. Even with the little gotchas that I ran into, overall I
>>>> would say that the one modern Linux I tried was impressive. Would need to
>>>> use it for a while to really form any solid opinions.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, that's the only way to get a good feel for something like this.
>>
>> You mean I can not just base it on a Google search for screen shots? :)
>>
>
>
> well, you *can*, but it's not very helpful :)
Hey! I am the one being the smart ass... does not help if you and I both
are...
--
Picture of a tuna milkshake: http://snipurl.com/bh6q
Feel free to ask for the recipe.
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:48:53 -0700,
Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
> 8v0nf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/4/05 2:36 PM:
>
>> it's good to know about the alternatives, and of course, everything in
>> life is a compromise, even Linux :) some things need improving before
>> they are really usable. See early versions of Evolution for one such
>> example :) It has matured well.
>
> Even if I end up not liking or using Linux I think I will be better off
> knowing it at least passably well - which right now I do not. Just as one
> learns their own language better as they learn foreign languages, I will
> learn OS X better as I learn Linux.
>
funny you should say this, I found this out a few years go when I was
studying Russian, I had to go and get a refresher in English, to
understand some of the explanations regarding Russian grammar :)
> And even if I never learn to love Linux, that does not imply that I think
> others should not use it or like it. I would like to know when it is
> appropriate to suggest Linux to students / clients. At this point it is
> largely based on hearsay.
>
It's good to learn new stuff. Even if you don't need it directly. I feel
much the same way about OSX, as you do about Linux. :) But I don't
currently have the dosh to lay out on a used Mac to play with it, nor
the space for anything other than a mini or a laptop. (or a cube, I
always liked those.)
>> You can remaster Knoppix quite easily, and there are "build your own
>> LiveCD" tools for Debian and other distros. Debian has a particularly
>> nice setup, which allows you to duplicate an existing system, on a
>> LiveCD, (or series of CDs if there's too much stuff for one. Don't know
>> if it will do a LiveDVD yet)
>
> Thanks...
>
Remastering Knoppix is almost a "killer app" in and of itself. It's one
reason for the vast proliferation of Knoppix derived distros.
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Words fail me. Thank goodness I can make gestures.
-- Mark Hughes (in asr - 2001
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:00:58 -0700,
Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
> ap0nf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/4/05 2:32 PM:
>
>
>> It works fine with the tools I have, and with the tools you can install
>> via fink. Would it be better if it worked with Apple's builtins? yes, but
>> before you can assign "blame" you have to know what the cause of the
>> problem is. Maybe Apple is pulling a redmond and crippled them
>> deliberately (unlikely, but a possibility) I have seen many messages
>> discussing the failure of Apple's tools to perform this task, but none
>> that show what the actual problem is caused by.
>
> Oh, if recent older versions of Apple's utilities worked and the new ones do
> not I certainly would not blame the folks who make the ISO. I have seen
> nothing to suggest that is the case, however.
>
Like I said, I have seen nothing that states what the root problem is,
so am unable to comment further in that direction. It seems to be more
than just "this image is wonky" since it affects more than on .iso
image, but it's not a complete "Apple can't burn ISOs" either.
<snip>
>>
>> yeah, it saved me from having to either drag in a laptop, or use
>> <shudder> XP to do the work. (which would have involved a lot of extra
>> tool downloads, and more involvement with that OS than I like to have.)
>
> Burns your fingers, eh?
>
I found XP to be slow, clunky, not particularly well thought out in
layout or function. It worked, for most tasks, but really fell down in
many areas. Don't even get me started on profiles and roaming profiles.
XPs handling of the functionality that *nix has out of the box (log in
anywhere, and that can be "your" machine) is pathetic.
> I do not like XP very much, but I teach it to college students - and teach
> on it when I am teaching other programs. I do not know all of the reg hacks
> that the real XP geeks know, but as far as general use I generally know it
> better than the XP fans in CSMA. Drives them crazy when I point out the
> many, many weaknesses in XP. I recently did a comparison of dialogs, and XP
> does not fare too well. At some point I will likely add a specific distro
> of Linux with some front end... but there are just too many choices in Linux
> to do a "fair" comparison.
It's not so much the distros, as the environments, comparing with say,
GNOME 2.8 or KDE 3.4 makes sense, comparing with say, RHEL less so,
unless you also specify the DE/WM. While some distros (RH at least) dink
greatly with the GNOME and KDE setups, most seem to leave them pretty
much alone. Making it easier to cross over from one distro to another,
if you stay with a specific DE. There are of course, differences under
the hood, but that's another matter entirely.
>
> If you care and missed it from before, here is the comparison:
>
> http://myweb.cableone.net/snit/csma/interface/dialogs/
>
> I also recently pointed out a bug in folder creation on XP - one that is
> likely not a big deal for any regular in CSMA or COLA, but one that could
> slow down a new user - perhaps greatly:
>
> http://myweb.cableone.net/snit/csma/interface/New_Folder/
There are several "Gotcha's" with XP. But most of the time, I don't have
to deal with it enough to really get the blood boiling. Although this
weekend I am going to help a friend set up his machines to "share"
between them, he has W2kPro, and XP (possibly pro, he doesn't know for
sure) and they aren't talking together very well... Go figure.
>
> I find it funny that some of the XP supporters were not even able to
> understand the bug. They just sunk to trolling and flaming...
that's what trolls do. Not that all Redmondites are trolls, but most of
them in the Linux groups sure seem to be.
>
>> I think it's more to do with the LiveCD maybe. I am using Hoary here,
>> and don't have the problem, but this is x86, and installed to HD, so
>> there are some significant differences, especially in the way x86
>> handles the clock.
>
> Makes sense. I noted the bug and figured it was some quirk that would not
> exist on a full install. I can not image that being the norm.
agreed. It would be a pretty lame bug :)
>
>> I think that has been true in the past, and is still, with many distros.
>> But there are many distros that don't require, or even encourage, such
>> tinkering. That come set up from the gitgo. Ubuntu being one of them.
>> Now, like most, you *can* tinker, but it's not required.
>
> Even with Ubunto I found that one "bad" right click choice and things had to
> be "fixed". Sure, I broke it (well, played with it - others would see it as
> broken).
>
what broke with a rt click? if you rt click on the menubar, and select
delete this panel, it asks for confirmation. If you click "OK" on that,
then I have little sympathy :)
>
>> You can remove either or both. (not much point to GNOME if you remove
>> both, but the option's there. ) The top menu bar reminds me somewhat of
>> the old finder, but I didn't use MacOS much when I had one, mostly Beos
>> and Linux :)
>
> OK, I did not remove all bars... how would I get one back if I had? Would I
> have to open the drive and dig for a program somewhere?
You could open a terminal, and run a new gnome-panel session I suspect.
Or you could tinker with the configs in .gnome-private or .gnome dirs,
but that's not too helpful.
>>
>> There are a couple of *BSD liveCDs, but they pale in comparison to the
>> Knoppix and other ones available for Linux, their hw detection is far
>> less effective, they are geared even more than most Linux distro's to
>> the "hard core" *Nix folks. I think there's an example XP liveCD, but
>> again, it lacks much in the way of HW support, and can't be distributed
>> so it's hard to test.
>
> And, of course, it is XP. That is a downside in itself. :)
yeah, it's not exactly my goal, to be able to run XP instead of Linux...
:)
>>>
>>
>>
>> well, you *can*, but it's not very helpful :)
>
> Hey! I am the one being the smart ass... does not help if you and I both
> are...
>
:)
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Go sell crazy someplace else. We're all stocked up here
Snit
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:48:53 -0700,
> Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
>> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
>> 8v0nf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/4/05 2:36 PM:
>>
>>> it's good to know about the alternatives, and of course, everything in
>>> life is a compromise, even Linux :) some things need improving before
>>> they are really usable. See early versions of Evolution for one such
>>> example :) It has matured well.
>>
>> Even if I end up not liking or using Linux I think I will be better off
>> knowing it at least passably well - which right now I do not. Just as one
>> learns their own language better as they learn foreign languages, I will
>> learn OS X better as I learn Linux.
>>
>
> funny you should say this, I found this out a few years go when I was
> studying Russian, I had to go and get a refresher in English, to
> understand some of the explanations regarding Russian grammar :)
I would bet that is not uncommon. And, in the end, learning Russian lead
you to understanding English better.
>
>> And even if I never learn to love Linux, that does not imply that I think
>> others should not use it or like it. I would like to know when it is
>> appropriate to suggest Linux to students / clients. At this point it is
>> largely based on hearsay.
>
> It's good to learn new stuff. Even if you don't need it directly. I feel
> much the same way about OSX, as you do about Linux. :) But I don't
> currently have the dosh to lay out on a used Mac to play with it, nor
> the space for anything other than a mini or a laptop. (or a cube, I
> always liked those.)
One good thing about Linux is I can play for free or nearly so... even if I
have to do so on PPC where it is not as well supported or on an older x86
machine.
>
>
>>> You can remaster Knoppix quite easily, and there are "build your own
>>> LiveCD" tools for Debian and other distros. Debian has a particularly
>>> nice setup, which allows you to duplicate an existing system, on a
>>> LiveCD, (or series of CDs if there's too much stuff for one. Don't know
>>> if it will do a LiveDVD yet)
>>
>> Thanks...
>>
>
> Remastering Knoppix is almost a "killer app" in and of itself. It's one
> reason for the vast proliferation of Knoppix derived distros.
Would love to see some company sell different distros pre-installed... and
have a show-room where you can play to see the differences.
--
Picture of a tuna milkshake: http://snipurl.com/bh6q
Feel free to ask for the recipe.
_________________________________________
Snit
>>> It works fine with the tools I have, and with the tools you can install
>>> via fink. Would it be better if it worked with Apple's builtins? yes, but
>>> before you can assign "blame" you have to know what the cause of the
>>> problem is. Maybe Apple is pulling a redmond and crippled them
>>> deliberately (unlikely, but a possibility) I have seen many messages
>>> discussing the failure of Apple's tools to perform this task, but none
>>> that show what the actual problem is caused by.
>>
>> Oh, if recent older versions of Apple's utilities worked and the new ones do
>> not I certainly would not blame the folks who make the ISO. I have seen
>> nothing to suggest that is the case, however.
>
> Like I said, I have seen nothing that states what the root problem is,
> so am unable to comment further in that direction. It seems to be more
> than just "this image is wonky" since it affects more than on .iso
> image, but it's not a complete "Apple can't burn ISOs" either.
I was not looking for the root cause, but simply at the silliness of putting
out a disk image that can not be read by the majority of your audience. To
not even have a warning is just silly.
>
> <snip>
>
>>>
>>> yeah, it saved me from having to either drag in a laptop, or use
>>> <shudder> XP to do the work. (which would have involved a lot of extra
>>> tool downloads, and more involvement with that OS than I like to have.)
>>
>> Burns your fingers, eh?
>
> I found XP to be slow, clunky, not particularly well thought out in
> layout or function.
Agreed. Seems with Linux, though, that I as a user have to make many of the
decisions as to what layout I want... a strength and a weakness of Linux.
> It worked, for most tasks, but really fell down in
> many areas. Don't even get me started on profiles and roaming profiles.
> XPs handling of the functionality that *nix has out of the box (log in
> anywhere, and that can be "your" machine) is pathetic.
>
>
>> I do not like XP very much, but I teach it to college students - and teach
>> on it when I am teaching other programs. I do not know all of the reg hacks
>> that the real XP geeks know, but as far as general use I generally know it
>> better than the XP fans in CSMA. Drives them crazy when I point out the
>> many, many weaknesses in XP. I recently did a comparison of dialogs, and XP
>> does not fare too well. At some point I will likely add a specific distro
>> of Linux with some front end... but there are just too many choices in Linux
>> to do a "fair" comparison.
>
> It's not so much the distros, as the environments, comparing with say,
> GNOME 2.8 or KDE 3.4 makes sense, comparing with say, RHEL less so,
> unless you also specify the DE/WM. While some distros (RH at least) dink
> greatly with the GNOME and KDE setups, most seem to leave them pretty
> much alone. Making it easier to cross over from one distro to another,
> if you stay with a specific DE. There are of course, differences under
> the hood, but that's another matter entirely.
Maybe I will someday add KDE and GNOME to my comparison site:
http://myweb.cableone.net/snit/mac_win
>
>>
>> If you care and missed it from before, here is the comparison:
>>
>> http://myweb.cableone.net/snit/csma/interface/dialogs/
>>
>> I also recently pointed out a bug in folder creation on XP - one that is
>> likely not a big deal for any regular in CSMA or COLA, but one that could
>> slow down a new user - perhaps greatly:
>>
>> http://myweb.cableone.net/snit/csma/interface/New_Folder/
>
>
> There are several "Gotcha's" with XP. But most of the time, I don't have
> to deal with it enough to really get the blood boiling. Although this
> weekend I am going to help a friend set up his machines to "share"
> between them, he has W2kPro, and XP (possibly pro, he doesn't know for
> sure) and they aren't talking together very well... Go figure.
Not uncommon.
>>
>> I find it funny that some of the XP supporters were not even able to
>> understand the bug. They just sunk to trolling and flaming...
>
> that's what trolls do. Not that all Redmondites are trolls, but most of
> them in the Linux groups sure seem to be.
Ditto for the Mac group. Then again, many of the Mac folks are trolls, too.
>>
>>> I think it's more to do with the LiveCD maybe. I am using Hoary here,
>>> and don't have the problem, but this is x86, and installed to HD, so
>>> there are some significant differences, especially in the way x86
>>> handles the clock.
>>
>> Makes sense. I noted the bug and figured it was some quirk that would not
>> exist on a full install. I can not image that being the norm.
>
> agreed. It would be a pretty lame bug :)
>>
>>> I think that has been true in the past, and is still, with many distros.
>>> But there are many distros that don't require, or even encourage, such
>>> tinkering. That come set up from the gitgo. Ubuntu being one of them.
>>> Now, like most, you *can* tinker, but it's not required.
>>
>> Even with Ubunto I found that one "bad" right click choice and things had to
>> be "fixed". Sure, I broke it (well, played with it - others would see it as
>> broken).
>
> what broke with a rt click? if you rt click on the menubar, and select
> delete this panel, it asks for confirmation. If you click "OK" on that,
> then I have little sympathy :)
While I agree it would seem silly - sit in a room of new users still in
"panic" mode and see how often they read. Sure, it *is* a user issue...
Hmmm, did not pay enough attention to the dialogs - does the button say "OK"
or it is more descriptive, such as "delete panel" or something. OS X tends
toward the descriptive buttons. XP does not.
>>
>>> You can remove either or both. (not much point to GNOME if you remove
>>> both, but the option's there. ) The top menu bar reminds me somewhat of
>>> the old finder, but I didn't use MacOS much when I had one, mostly Beos
>>> and Linux :)
>>
>> OK, I did not remove all bars... how would I get one back if I had? Would I
>> have to open the drive and dig for a program somewhere?
>
> You could open a terminal, and run a new gnome-panel session I suspect.
> Or you could tinker with the configs in .gnome-private or .gnome dirs,
> but that's not too helpful.
Ouch! There is no control panel or GUI utility to create one?
>>>
>>> There are a couple of *BSD liveCDs, but they pale in comparison to the
>>> Knoppix and other ones available for Linux, their hw detection is far
>>> less effective, they are geared even more than most Linux distro's to
>>> the "hard core" *Nix folks. I think there's an example XP liveCD, but
>>> again, it lacks much in the way of HW support, and can't be distributed
>>> so it's hard to test.
>>
>> And, of course, it is XP. That is a downside in itself. :)
>
> yeah, it's not exactly my goal, to be able to run XP instead of Linux...
> :)
>
>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> well, you *can*, but it's not very helpful :)
>>
>> Hey! I am the one being the smart ass... does not help if you and I both
>> are...
>>
>
>
> :)
--
Picture of a tuna soda: http://snipurl.com/bid1
sberry
rather than that which the limited live disk offers, check out the guide
at http://ubuntuguide.org/
Linønut
> I also recently pointed out a bug in folder creation on XP - one that is
> likely not a big deal for any regular in CSMA or COLA, but one that could
> slow down a new user - perhaps greatly:
>
> http://myweb.cableone.net/snit/csma/interface/New_Folder/
>
> I find it funny that some of the XP supporters were not even able to
> understand the bug. They just sunk to trolling and flaming...
Shame on you, Snit! Don't you know that Microsoft code is always smarter
than the user! <guffaw>
When I installed XP SP2 recently, I found that it modified Word XP.
I can no longer select the whole document, right click, and find an Update
Fields entry (to update all references and table items). I can still do it
to a single table of contents, so I do that, then I can select the whole
document and select Edit/Redo.
It's nuts.
DFS
> Snit poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>
>> I also recently pointed out a bug in folder creation on XP - one
>> that is likely not a big deal for any regular in CSMA or COLA, but
>> one that could slow down a new user - perhaps greatly:
>>
>> http://myweb.cableone.net/snit/csma/interface/New_Folder/
>>
>> I find it funny that some of the XP supporters were not even able to
>> understand the bug. They just sunk to trolling and flaming...
>
> Shame on you, Snit! Don't you know that Microsoft code is always
> smarter than the user! <guffaw>
>
> When I installed XP SP2 recently, I found that it modified Word XP.
> I can no longer select the whole document, right click, and find an
> Update Fields entry (to update all references and table items). I
> can still do it to a single table of contents, so I do that, then I
> can select the whole document and select Edit/Redo.
>
> It's nuts.
I told you before how to take care of that, ingrate.
Execute a one-line VBA command: ActiveDocument.Fields.Update
Snit
> Snit poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>
>> I also recently pointed out a bug in folder creation on XP - one that is
>> likely not a big deal for any regular in CSMA or COLA, but one that could
>> slow down a new user - perhaps greatly:
>>
>> http://myweb.cableone.net/snit/csma/interface/New_Folder/
>>
>> I find it funny that some of the XP supporters were not even able to
>> understand the bug. They just sunk to trolling and flaming...
>
> Shame on you, Snit! Don't you know that Microsoft code is always smarter
> than the user! <guffaw>
>
> When I installed XP SP2 recently, I found that it modified Word XP.
> I can no longer select the whole document, right click, and find an Update
> Fields entry (to update all references and table items). I can still do it
> to a single table of contents, so I do that, then I can select the whole
> document and select Edit/Redo.
>
> It's nuts.
It is what XP fans call integration... :)
--
I am one of only .3% of people who have avoided becoming a statistic.
Snit
5:58 AM:
Thanks!
--
"If a million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."
- Anatole France
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 05:40:04 -0700,
Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
> olcof2-...@grendel.myth on 3/5/05 3:02 AM:
>
>>>> It works fine with the tools I have, and with the tools you can install
>>>> via fink. Would it be better if it worked with Apple's builtins? yes, but
>>>> before you can assign "blame" you have to know what the cause of the
>>>> problem is. Maybe Apple is pulling a redmond and crippled them
>>>> deliberately (unlikely, but a possibility) I have seen many messages
>>>> discussing the failure of Apple's tools to perform this task, but none
>>>> that show what the actual problem is caused by.
>>>
>>> Oh, if recent older versions of Apple's utilities worked and the new ones do
>>> not I certainly would not blame the folks who make the ISO. I have seen
>>> nothing to suggest that is the case, however.
>>
>> Like I said, I have seen nothing that states what the root problem is,
>> so am unable to comment further in that direction. It seems to be more
>> than just "this image is wonky" since it affects more than on .iso
>> image, but it's not a complete "Apple can't burn ISOs" either.
>
> I was not looking for the root cause, but simply at the silliness of putting
> out a disk image that can not be read by the majority of your audience. To
> not even have a warning is just silly.
Limited dev time is one reason. It can work, it can be made to work, and
I am not so sure that the vast majority of the iso users are getting and
burning the CDs themselves. I have burned several for others (mostly
x86, a couple of ppc) and they work as expected.
It's an area that could use some improvement, agreed, but it's not a
major concern, given that the PPC market is relatively small, and the
subset of those who want to try Linux, even smaller. It's a
cost->benefit issue, even if there's no money involved. Personally, a
note in the README would be sufficient until they can find and solve the
root cause.
<snip>
>> I found XP to be slow, clunky, not particularly well thought out in
>> layout or function.
>
> Agreed. Seems with Linux, though, that I as a user have to make many of the
> decisions as to what layout I want... a strength and a weakness of Linux.
>
Have to? I hadn't noticed, can you give an example?
<snip>
>> There are several "Gotcha's" with XP. But most of the time, I don't have
>> to deal with it enough to really get the blood boiling. Although this
>> weekend I am going to help a friend set up his machines to "share"
>> between them, he has W2kPro, and XP (possibly pro, he doesn't know for
>> sure) and they aren't talking together very well... Go figure.
>
> Not uncommon.
>>>
>>
>> that's what trolls do. Not that all Redmondites are trolls, but most of
>> them in the Linux groups sure seem to be.
>
> Ditto for the Mac group. Then again, many of the Mac folks are trolls, too.
I don't mind the folks who actually ask the tough questions, even if
they are trolling, but the ones who belittle the person answering it, or
simply brush off the answer, making it rather obvious, that they aren't
after info, just to rile people up, are beneath contempt.
>> what broke with a rt click? if you rt click on the menubar, and select
>> delete this panel, it asks for confirmation. If you click "OK" on that,
>> then I have little sympathy :)
>
> While I agree it would seem silly - sit in a room of new users still in
> "panic" mode and see how often they read. Sure, it *is* a user issue...
>
> Hmmm, did not pay enough attention to the dialogs - does the button say "OK"
> or it is more descriptive, such as "delete panel" or something. OS X tends
> toward the descriptive buttons. XP does not.
Actually, it says <CANCEL> or <DELETE> in responce to the question
Delete this panel?
When a panel is deleted, the panel and its
settings are lost.
GNOME is very good about dialogs that make sense, you will rarely see
<OK> as a button, unless it's pretty obvious that it's the right term to
use. Also, they are position consistant, cancel (or the equiv) is on the
left, continue, on the right. There's been a fair amount of work gone
into GNOME on the UI issues.
>> You could open a terminal, and run a new gnome-panel session I suspect.
>> Or you could tinker with the configs in .gnome-private or .gnome dirs,
>> but that's not too helpful.
>
> Ouch! There is no control panel or GUI utility to create one?
Sure, run a gnome-panel. That *is* the control panel for the panel. One
of the things I like in GNOME, is that stuff, as much as possible,
contains it's own control panel. You don't have to go searching all over
for a control panel for appfoo, it's right there. Rt click on the panel,
select properties. If you want to move it to the side, grab it, and drag
it there.
If you have global changes to make, they are usually made to an element,
that can be isolated. Like the menu look in the titlebars. Global across
all apps, but controlled by the windowmanager.
There's no equivilent to KDE's Control center that I am aware of, at
least not any more. Some may not like that, but I do.
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Gun exchange programs would work great if they gave you a gun when you
handed in a criminal
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 05:26:57 -0700,
Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
> uscof2-...@grendel.myth on 3/5/05 3:05 AM:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:48:53 -0700,
>> Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
>>> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
>>> 8v0nf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/4/05 2:36 PM:
>>>
>>>> it's good to know about the alternatives, and of course, everything in
>>>> life is a compromise, even Linux :) some things need improving before
>>>> they are really usable. See early versions of Evolution for one such
>>>> example :) It has matured well.
>>>
>>> Even if I end up not liking or using Linux I think I will be better off
>>> knowing it at least passably well - which right now I do not. Just as one
>>> learns their own language better as they learn foreign languages, I will
>>> learn OS X better as I learn Linux.
>>>
>>
>> funny you should say this, I found this out a few years go when I was
>> studying Russian, I had to go and get a refresher in English, to
>> understand some of the explanations regarding Russian grammar :)
>
> I would bet that is not uncommon. And, in the end, learning Russian lead
> you to understanding English better.
yep, and although Russian isn't without it's, er, quirks, it's actually
a rather coherent language, lacking much of the convoluted and rules<->
exceptions of english. (Not too surprising, given English's rather, er,
miscegenated origins)
>>
>>> And even if I never learn to love Linux, that does not imply that I think
>>> others should not use it or like it. I would like to know when it is
>>> appropriate to suggest Linux to students / clients. At this point it is
>>> largely based on hearsay.
>>
>> It's good to learn new stuff. Even if you don't need it directly. I feel
>> much the same way about OSX, as you do about Linux. :) But I don't
>> currently have the dosh to lay out on a used Mac to play with it, nor
>> the space for anything other than a mini or a laptop. (or a cube, I
>> always liked those.)
>
> One good thing about Linux is I can play for free or nearly so... even if I
> have to do so on PPC where it is not as well supported or on an older x86
> machine.
Agreed, and with a USB thumb drive, you can haul your config and
personal files along with you. :)
>>
>>
>>>> You can remaster Knoppix quite easily, and there are "build your own
>>>> LiveCD" tools for Debian and other distros. Debian has a particularly
>>>> nice setup, which allows you to duplicate an existing system, on a
>>>> LiveCD, (or series of CDs if there's too much stuff for one. Don't know
>>>> if it will do a LiveDVD yet)
>>>
>>> Thanks...
>>>
>>
>> Remastering Knoppix is almost a "killer app" in and of itself. It's one
>> reason for the vast proliferation of Knoppix derived distros.
>
> Would love to see some company sell different distros pre-installed... and
> have a show-room where you can play to see the differences.
>
Where's the money? I can't see most companies doing this for a monetary
reason, and I don't think a couple of hours with a half dozen
machines/distros is much play time. But you can get similar access via
LUGs and such, it might be something to suggest to a LUG near you, to
bring in a bunch of machines, with different distros, for a walk through
session. The local LUGS here (we have several in the near area) often do
installfests, and have monthly meetings covering a variety of
interesting newbie<->geek level stuff.
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Who was the sick-minded SOB who called it a "lisp"?
"What's wrong with you?" "I litthhp."
"You what?" "I *litthhp* ."
in
> Where's the money? I can't see most companies doing this for a monetary
> reason, and I don't think a couple of hours with a half dozen
> machines/distros is much play time. But you can get similar access via
Are you kidding?
I bet if someone put a store like this in downtown Seattle or Bellevue, can
called it Penguin Igloo with a black, white and yellow decor.
And made it a showcase of all the Linux distroes, with games, devices and so
on, plus t-shirts, sales of posters, and so on...
Well, knowing Seattlites, they would come...in flocks!!!
Snit
>> Would love to see some company sell different distros pre-installed... and
>> have a show-room where you can play to see the differences.
>>
>
>
> Where's the money?
Selling boxes with it pre-installed.
> I can't see most companies doing this for a monetary
> reason, and I don't think a couple of hours with a half dozen
> machines/distros is much play time. But you can get similar access via
> LUGs and such, it might be something to suggest to a LUG near you, to
> bring in a bunch of machines, with different distros, for a walk through
> session. The local LUGS here (we have several in the near area) often do
> installfests, and have monthly meetings covering a variety of
> interesting newbie<->geek level stuff.
I will be going to a local LUG meeting, and I shall see what I shall see..
--
Picture of a tuna soda: http://snipurl.com/bid1
Snit
>>> I found XP to be slow, clunky, not particularly well thought out in
>>> layout or function.
>>
>> Agreed. Seems with Linux, though, that I as a user have to make many of the
>> decisions as to what layout I want... a strength and a weakness of Linux.
>>
>
> Have to? I hadn't noticed, can you give an example?
It is the down side of being so configurable and having so many distros - a
user at a minimum has to decide what distro they want - or know someone who
has the knowledge to decide of them.
>
> <snip>
>
>>> There are several "Gotcha's" with XP. But most of the time, I don't have
>>> to deal with it enough to really get the blood boiling. Although this
>>> weekend I am going to help a friend set up his machines to "share"
>>> between them, he has W2kPro, and XP (possibly pro, he doesn't know for
>>> sure) and they aren't talking together very well... Go figure.
>>
>> Not uncommon.
>>>>
>>>
>>> that's what trolls do. Not that all Redmondites are trolls, but most of
>>> them in the Linux groups sure seem to be.
>>
>> Ditto for the Mac group. Then again, many of the Mac folks are trolls, too.
>
> I don't mind the folks who actually ask the tough questions, even if
> they are trolling, but the ones who belittle the person answering it, or
> simply brush off the answer, making it rather obvious, that they aren't
> after info, just to rile people up, are beneath contempt.
A tactic that is becoming more common in CSMA is to have people just snip
the others comments and then answer a completely different question... or
just snip all but a couple words. It would be like me responding to your
above comments by quoting only "I don't mind the folks" and then whining to
you that you should mind the trolls. it pretty much kills any chance at a
conversation. Even worse, they are sinking to just changing the quoted
material and outright directly lying about what others said. Steve Carroll
and Sandman have been doing this, and it is anything but reasonable. Then
they blame others of the same, and their "clique" all stands behind the
claim, even though they can produce no examples. Has made CSMA much less
interesting.
>
>>> what broke with a rt click? if you rt click on the menubar, and select
>>> delete this panel, it asks for confirmation. If you click "OK" on that,
>>> then I have little sympathy :)
>>
>> While I agree it would seem silly - sit in a room of new users still in
>> "panic" mode and see how often they read. Sure, it *is* a user issue...
>>
>> Hmmm, did not pay enough attention to the dialogs - does the button say "OK"
>> or it is more descriptive, such as "delete panel" or something. OS X tends
>> toward the descriptive buttons. XP does not.
>
> Actually, it says <CANCEL> or <DELETE> in responce to the question
That works.
>
> Delete this panel?
> When a panel is deleted, the panel and its
> settings are lost.
>
>
> GNOME is very good about dialogs that make sense, you will rarely see
> <OK> as a button, unless it's pretty obvious that it's the right term to
> use. Also, they are position consistant, cancel (or the equiv) is on the
> left, continue, on the right. There's been a fair amount of work gone
> into GNOME on the UI issues.
Excellent. That is how it should be, and how OS X is. XP is not.
>
>
>>> You could open a terminal, and run a new gnome-panel session I suspect.
>>> Or you could tinker with the configs in .gnome-private or .gnome dirs,
>>> but that's not too helpful.
>>
>> Ouch! There is no control panel or GUI utility to create one?
>
> Sure, run a gnome-panel. That *is* the control panel for the panel. One
> of the things I like in GNOME, is that stuff, as much as possible,
> contains it's own control panel. You don't have to go searching all over
> for a control panel for appfoo, it's right there. Rt click on the panel,
> select properties. If you want to move it to the side, grab it, and drag
> it there.
But you have to go to the command line to launch it? Is there no icon in a
folder of applications, at the very least?
>
> If you have global changes to make, they are usually made to an element,
> that can be isolated. Like the menu look in the titlebars. Global across
> all apps, but controlled by the windowmanager.
>
> There's no equivilent to KDE's Control center that I am aware of, at
> least not any more. Some may not like that, but I do.
--
If A = B and B = C, then A = C, except where void or prohibited by law.
Roy Santoro, Psycho Proverb Zone (http://snipurl.com/BurdenOfProof)
Liam Slider
>>
>> Sure, run a gnome-panel. That *is* the control panel for the panel. One
>> of the things I like in GNOME, is that stuff, as much as possible,
>> contains it's own control panel. You don't have to go searching all over
>> for a control panel for appfoo, it's right there. Rt click on the panel,
>> select properties. If you want to move it to the side, grab it, and drag
>> it there.
>
> But you have to go to the command line to launch it? Is there no icon in a
> folder of applications, at the very least?
No, no, you don't have to launch it from the CLI. Using the GNOME panel as
an example, as he did, there is a place on the menu brought up by the
Right click (or left click if you're using a left handed mouse, as I do)
labeled "New Panel" which lets you create a new panel at will.
Plus of course, there's one panel enabled by default. So there's never a
need to run it from the CLI.
Elizabot v2.0.2
> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
> olcof2-...@grendel.myth on 3/5/05 3:02 AM:
>
>>>I find it funny that some of the XP supporters were not even able to
>>>understand the bug. They just sunk to trolling and flaming...
>>
>>that's what trolls do. Not that all Redmondites are trolls, but most of
>>them in the Linux groups sure seem to be.
>
>
> Ditto for the Mac group. Then again, many of the Mac folks are trolls, too.
Especially you, Snit.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/altstevecarrollisatroll
It's "fascinating" that you and your well-established sockpuppet
"sigmond" are the only two obvious posters in the above newsgroup.
It's also "fascinating" that about the same time of the first post made
by your sockpuppet that you went through the following handles, IMO to
get past peoples' kill filters:
--
By responding to Elizabot v2.0.2 you implicitly agree to the TOS at:
http://elizabot.spymac.net/
Snit
pan.2005.03.05....@NOSPAM.liamslider.com on 3/5/05 2:42 PM:
> On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:23:38 -0700, Snit wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Sure, run a gnome-panel. That *is* the control panel for the panel. One
>>> of the things I like in GNOME, is that stuff, as much as possible,
>>> contains it's own control panel. You don't have to go searching all over
>>> for a control panel for appfoo, it's right there. Rt click on the panel,
>>> select properties. If you want to move it to the side, grab it, and drag
>>> it there.
>>
>> But you have to go to the command line to launch it? Is there no icon in a
>> folder of applications, at the very least?
>
> No, no, you don't have to launch it from the CLI. Using the GNOME panel as
> an example, as he did, there is a place on the menu brought up by the
> Right click (or left click if you're using a left handed mouse, as I do)
> labeled "New Panel" which lets you create a new panel at will.
I found that, but what if I close all the panels? How do I get them back?
Is there a way to get the default panels back if I close them?
>
> Plus of course, there's one panel enabled by default. So there's never a
> need to run it from the CLI.
--
Picture of a tuna soda: http://snipurl.com/bid1
Feel free to ask for the recipe.
Elizabot v2.0.2
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 05:40:04 -0700,
> Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
>
>>"Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
>>olcof2-...@grendel.myth on 3/5/05 3:02 AM:
>>>that's what trolls do. Not that all Redmondites are trolls, but most of
>>>them in the Linux groups sure seem to be.
>>
>>Ditto for the Mac group. Then again, many of the Mac folks are trolls, too.
>
>
> I don't mind the folks who actually ask the tough questions, even if
> they are trolling, but the ones who belittle the person answering it, or
> simply brush off the answer, making it rather obvious, that they aren't
> after info, just to rile people up, are beneath contempt.
A good example of Snit doing this sort of thing recently was when I
asked him if he had considered the environmental and ecological tolls
that having children have on the environment (he had started another OT
thread about the environment). Snit snipped out the link and also
started writing things like:
"You posted information trying to include yourself in my family planning
with my wife.
No matter how you try to bend or twist your reasons why, I do not care.
I am not taking anything you say about my family planning - or
*anything* in my life - into consideration."
and he even went so far as to write:
"No matter how much you beg, you are not going to have my child."
Snit has periods where he posts in a rational and lucid manner. Do not
be fooled by his antics. I doubt he will turn on you because he likes
keeping an ally or two around. (He's made numerous comments on how
cliquish he thinks csma is - which is why IMO he occasionally reaches
into new newsgroups and acts "normal.")
<snip>
--
"And if I get a hemorrhoid shaped like your face my proctologist will
contact you (not that I care what you even look like or what gender you
really are)." - Snit 10/11/04
Liam Slider
> "Liam Slider" <li...@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote in post
> pan.2005.03.05....@NOSPAM.liamslider.com on 3/5/05 2:42 PM:
>
>> On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:23:38 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Sure, run a gnome-panel. That *is* the control panel for the panel. One
>>>> of the things I like in GNOME, is that stuff, as much as possible,
>>>> contains it's own control panel. You don't have to go searching all over
>>>> for a control panel for appfoo, it's right there. Rt click on the panel,
>>>> select properties. If you want to move it to the side, grab it, and drag
>>>> it there.
>>>
>>> But you have to go to the command line to launch it? Is there no icon in a
>>> folder of applications, at the very least?
>>
>> No, no, you don't have to launch it from the CLI. Using the GNOME panel as
>> an example, as he did, there is a place on the menu brought up by the
>> Right click (or left click if you're using a left handed mouse, as I do)
>> labeled "New Panel" which lets you create a new panel at will.
>
> I found that, but what if I close all the panels? How do I get them back?
> Is there a way to get the default panels back if I close them?
You can't delete every panel, there always has to be at least one panel on
GNOME. If you try to delete the last one on your desktop, it informs you
that you can't. Simple.
Snit
Aha. That makes sense and completely answers my first question. Thanks.
Is there any way to set a panel to be like the defaults that you first get.
If not, it is not a big deal, but it would be a bonus if you can.
Liam Slider
Indeed, wouldn't want the panel to disappear and then have no way to get
it back would you. ;-)
> Is there any way to set a panel to be like the defaults that you first
> get. If not, it is not a big deal, but it would be a bonus if you can.
Well, you can manually add items, and place them where they are supposed
to be on the panel.
Snit
>>> You can't delete every panel, there always has to be at least one panel
>>> on GNOME. If you try to delete the last one on your desktop, it informs
>>> you that you can't. Simple.
>>
>> Aha. That makes sense and completely answers my first question.
>> Thanks.
>
> Indeed, wouldn't want the panel to disappear and then have no way to get
> it back would you. ;-)
>
>
>> Is there any way to set a panel to be like the defaults that you first
>> get. If not, it is not a big deal, but it would be a bonus if you can.
>
> Well, you can manually add items, and place them where they are supposed
> to be on the panel.
OK, I had figured that much out. Thanks... appreciate the info.
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:16:13 -0700,
Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
> b7hpf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/5/05 1:25 PM:
>
>>> Would love to see some company sell different distros pre-installed... and
>>> have a show-room where you can play to see the differences.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Where's the money?
>
> Selling boxes with it pre-installed.
>
Don't think that market is there yet, not for a storefront anyway.
Online, yeah, but walkins? no, most of the smaller whitebox builders are
struggling as it is.
>> I can't see most companies doing this for a monetary
>> reason, and I don't think a couple of hours with a half dozen
>> machines/distros is much play time. But you can get similar access via
>> LUGs and such, it might be something to suggest to a LUG near you, to
>> bring in a bunch of machines, with different distros, for a walk through
>> session. The local LUGS here (we have several in the near area) often do
>> installfests, and have monthly meetings covering a variety of
>> interesting newbie<->geek level stuff.
>
> I will be going to a local LUG meeting, and I shall see what I shall see..
>
I'd be interested in how you fare. Please keep us updated.
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
"If we could just get everyone to close their eyes and
visualize world peace for an hour, imagine how serene and
quiet it would be until the looting started."
Snit
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:16:13 -0700,
> Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
>> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
>> b7hpf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/5/05 1:25 PM:
>>
>>>> Would love to see some company sell different distros pre-installed... and
>>>> have a show-room where you can play to see the differences.
>>>
>>> Where's the money?
>>
>> Selling boxes with it pre-installed.
>
> Don't think that market is there yet, not for a storefront anyway.
> Online, yeah, but walkins? no, most of the smaller whitebox builders are
> struggling as it is.
Perhaps... though it would certainly help to spread Linux if such a store
were around. Maybe be able to sell computers significantly cheaper (no OS
to buy - and few applications as most are free) and then sell support plans.
I do not see why such a thing could not work.
>
>>> I can't see most companies doing this for a monetary
>>> reason, and I don't think a couple of hours with a half dozen
>>> machines/distros is much play time. But you can get similar access via
>>> LUGs and such, it might be something to suggest to a LUG near you, to
>>> bring in a bunch of machines, with different distros, for a walk through
>>> session. The local LUGS here (we have several in the near area) often do
>>> installfests, and have monthly meetings covering a variety of
>>> interesting newbie<->geek level stuff.
>>
>> I will be going to a local LUG meeting, and I shall see what I shall see..
>
> I'd be interested in how you fare. Please keep us updated.
Will do.
--
"If a million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."
- Anatole France
_________________________________________
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
Interesting, I hadn't tried that. Good to know.
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
You cannot reason a man out of a position he did not reach through
reason.
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:54:34 -0700,
Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
> "Liam Slider" <li...@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote in post
> pan.2005.03.05....@NOSPAM.liamslider.com on 3/5/05 2:55 PM:
>> You can't delete every panel, there always has to be at least one panel on
>> GNOME. If you try to delete the last one on your desktop, it informs you
>> that you can't. Simple.
>
> Aha. That makes sense and completely answers my first question. Thanks.
>
> Is there any way to set a panel to be like the defaults that you first get.
> If not, it is not a big deal, but it would be a bonus if you can.
>
blowing away your gnome configs will do that, (sledgehammer on a walnut)
or deleting .gnome2/session should do it (worked on a test account here)
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Have you ever noticed that sanction, is it's own antonym?
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:23:38 -0700,
Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
> ebipf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/5/05 1:45 PM:
>
>>>> I found XP to be slow, clunky, not particularly well thought out in
>>>> layout or function.
>>>
>>> Agreed. Seems with Linux, though, that I as a user have to make many of the
>>> decisions as to what layout I want... a strength and a weakness of Linux.
>>>
>>
>> Have to? I hadn't noticed, can you give an example?
>
> It is the down side of being so configurable and having so many distros - a
> user at a minimum has to decide what distro they want - or know someone who
> has the knowledge to decide of them.
Ah, I thought we were discussing a single distro/environment, and the
layout of that.
>> I don't mind the folks who actually ask the tough questions, even if
>> they are trolling, but the ones who belittle the person answering it,
>> or simply brush off the answer, making it rather obvious, that they
>> aren't after info, just to rile people up, are beneath contempt.
>
> A tactic that is becoming more common in CSMA is to have people just
> snip the others comments and then answer a completely different
> question... or just snip all but a couple words. It would be like me
> responding to your above comments by quoting only "I don't mind the
> folks" and then whining to you that you should mind the trolls. it
> pretty much kills any chance at a conversation. Even worse, they are
> sinking to just changing the quoted material and outright directly
> lying about what others said. Steve Carroll and Sandman have been
> doing this, and it is anything but reasonable. Then they blame others
> of the same, and their "clique" all stands behind the claim, even
> though they can produce no examples. Has made CSMA much less
> interesting.
Agreed, when someone alters what you said, and makes claims based on
that alteration, that's just slimey. I lose any interest in interacting
with them from then on. Debate the words posted, if you have to make up
stuff, if you have to change the words others have said, then you have
no argument, and frankly, aren't someone I care to waste time with. My
time is usally more valuable than that, even when I am goofing off.
<snip>
>
>> Actually, it says <CANCEL> or <DELETE> in responce to the question
>
> That works.
>>
>> Delete this panel?
>> When a panel is deleted, the panel and its
>> settings are lost.
>>
>>
>> GNOME is very good about dialogs that make sense, you will rarely see
>> <OK> as a button, unless it's pretty obvious that it's the right term to
>> use. Also, they are position consistant, cancel (or the equiv) is on the
>> left, continue, on the right. There's been a fair amount of work gone
>> into GNOME on the UI issues.
>
> Excellent. That is how it should be, and how OS X is. XP is not.
Yes, as I said, GNOME has done a lot in this area, it's much more like
OSX than XP, (IMHO, better than either, but my opinion hasn't been in
doubt on this :)
<snip>
>> Sure, run a gnome-panel. That *is* the control panel for the panel. One
>> of the things I like in GNOME, is that stuff, as much as possible,
>> contains it's own control panel. You don't have to go searching all over
>> for a control panel for appfoo, it's right there. Rt click on the panel,
>> select properties. If you want to move it to the side, grab it, and drag
>> it there.
>
> But you have to go to the command line to launch it? Is there no icon in a
> folder of applications, at the very least?
Well, there's a menu item, on the panel... :)
You could navigate to the location (/usr/bin) and select it, but that's
not exactly the recommended way, there are over 1700 entries in that dir
on my machine here, and it takes nautilus about 10s to load the dir the
first time. (takes about 2s after that. I have a slow IDE system on this
laptop)
Do bear in mind that you'd have to delete *both* panels to get into
trouble in this way. The top and bottom panels look different, but
they're the same tool, with different settings. One acts like the dock,
and the other, more like (though not the same as) the finder. (in the
default config, you can configure them differently, obviously.)
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is a better defense.
Snit
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:54:34 -0700,
> Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
>> "Liam Slider" <li...@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote in post
>> pan.2005.03.05....@NOSPAM.liamslider.com on 3/5/05 2:55 PM:
>
>>> You can't delete every panel, there always has to be at least one panel on
>>> GNOME. If you try to delete the last one on your desktop, it informs you
>>> that you can't. Simple.
>>
>> Aha. That makes sense and completely answers my first question. Thanks.
>>
>> Is there any way to set a panel to be like the defaults that you first get.
>> If not, it is not a big deal, but it would be a bonus if you can.
>>
>
>
> blowing away your gnome configs will do that, (sledgehammer on a walnut)
> or deleting .gnome2/session should do it (worked on a test account here)
Thanks... figured there had to be a way... is that a file similar to an OS X
pref file?
Snit
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:23:38 -0700,
> Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
>> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
>> ebipf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/5/05 1:45 PM:
>>
>>>>> I found XP to be slow, clunky, not particularly well thought out in layout
>>>>> or function.
>>>>>
>>>> Agreed. Seems with Linux, though, that I as a user have to make many of
>>>> the decisions as to what layout I want... a strength and a weakness of
>>>> Linux.
>>>
>>> Have to? I hadn't noticed, can you give an example?
>>>
>> It is the down side of being so configurable and having so many distros - a
>> user at a minimum has to decide what distro they want - or know someone who
>> has the knowledge to decide of them.
>
> Ah, I thought we were discussing a single distro/environment, and the
> layout of that.
No I mean Linux as a whole - and then, even when you do pick DE and distro,
it seems that Linux is built to be more configurable. Good for the advanced
user, but only good for the beginner if you pick the right distro... I
assume.
>
>>> I don't mind the folks who actually ask the tough questions, even if
>>> they are trolling, but the ones who belittle the person answering it,
>>> or simply brush off the answer, making it rather obvious, that they
>>> aren't after info, just to rile people up, are beneath contempt.
>>
>> A tactic that is becoming more common in CSMA is to have people just
>> snip the others comments and then answer a completely different
>> question... or just snip all but a couple words. It would be like me
>> responding to your above comments by quoting only "I don't mind the
>> folks" and then whining to you that you should mind the trolls. it
>> pretty much kills any chance at a conversation. Even worse, they are
>> sinking to just changing the quoted material and outright directly
>> lying about what others said. Steve Carroll and Sandman have been
>> doing this, and it is anything but reasonable. Then they blame others
>> of the same, and their "clique" all stands behind the claim, even
>> though they can produce no examples. Has made CSMA much less
>> interesting.
>
> Agreed, when someone alters what you said, and makes claims based on
> that alteration, that's just slimey. I lose any interest in interacting
> with them from then on. Debate the words posted, if you have to make up
> stuff, if you have to change the words others have said, then you have
> no argument, and frankly, aren't someone I care to waste time with. My
> time is usally more valuable than that, even when I am goofing off.
I played with the trolls for a long, long time in CSMA. Recently have just
grown to bored with their games... and, for that matter, their games have
been sinking to lower and lower tactics, as I describe above. One even made
some comment about asking me to stop forcing him to confront truths he could
not deal with (yes, he really asked me to do that for him). When I brought
up the quote from him he started using it as a .sig attributing it to me.
Just weird - like the guy was too stupid to know that almost anyone who
posts to an advocacy group could look up his lies.
>
>
> <snip>
>
>>
>>> Actually, it says <CANCEL> or <DELETE> in responce to the question
>>
>> That works.
>>>
>>> Delete this panel?
>>> When a panel is deleted, the panel and its
>>> settings are lost.
>>>
>>>
>>> GNOME is very good about dialogs that make sense, you will rarely see
>>> <OK> as a button, unless it's pretty obvious that it's the right term to
>>> use. Also, they are position consistant, cancel (or the equiv) is on the
>>> left, continue, on the right. There's been a fair amount of work gone
>>> into GNOME on the UI issues.
>>
>> Excellent. That is how it should be, and how OS X is. XP is not.
>
> Yes, as I said, GNOME has done a lot in this area, it's much more like
> OSX than XP, (IMHO, better than either, but my opinion hasn't been in
> doubt on this :)
I will try to play some with both GNOME and KDE, since they seem to be the
biggies on Linux.
>
> <snip>
>
>
>>> Sure, run a gnome-panel. That *is* the control panel for the panel. One
>>> of the things I like in GNOME, is that stuff, as much as possible,
>>> contains it's own control panel. You don't have to go searching all over
>>> for a control panel for appfoo, it's right there. Rt click on the panel,
>>> select properties. If you want to move it to the side, grab it, and drag
>>> it there.
>>
>> But you have to go to the command line to launch it? Is there no icon in a
>> folder of applications, at the very least?
>
> Well, there's a menu item, on the panel... :)
This has been answered - seems you can not make the last one go away.
>
> You could navigate to the location (/usr/bin) and select it, but that's
> not exactly the recommended way, there are over 1700 entries in that dir
> on my machine here, and it takes nautilus about 10s to load the dir the
> first time. (takes about 2s after that. I have a slow IDE system on this
> laptop)
>
> Do bear in mind that you'd have to delete *both* panels to get into
> trouble in this way. The top and bottom panels look different, but
> they're the same tool, with different settings. One acts like the dock,
> and the other, more like (though not the same as) the finder. (in the
> default config, you can configure them differently, obviously.)
Yeah, I pretty quickly figured out they were the same tool... added a bunch,
deleted a bunch... did not delete the last one but thought about it after I
had already stopped playing.
Will likely download some LiveCD's for my PC so I can play and still have my
main machine running OS X.
--
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters." - Alan Simpson
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 16:13:58 -0700,
Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
> daqpf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/5/05 4:01 PM:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:16:13 -0700,
>> Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
>>> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
>>> b7hpf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/5/05 1:25 PM:
>>>
>>>>> Would love to see some company sell different distros pre-installed... and
>>>>> have a show-room where you can play to see the differences.
>>>>
>>>> Where's the money?
>>>
>>> Selling boxes with it pre-installed.
>>
>> Don't think that market is there yet, not for a storefront anyway.
>> Online, yeah, but walkins? no, most of the smaller whitebox builders are
>> struggling as it is.
>
> Perhaps... though it would certainly help to spread Linux if such a store
> were around. Maybe be able to sell computers significantly cheaper (no OS
> to buy - and few applications as most are free) and then sell support plans.
> I do not see why such a thing could not work.
If you don't see how it couldn't work, then why aren't you out there
making money hand over fist ? :)
I don't disagree that it would be a useful thing to have, to be able to
point people to, and have them try Linux, I just don't think that
there's enough of a financial incentive there to make money at it. Even
for a whitetbox builder. Most folks who go to the computer store,
allready (mostly) know what they want.
Having CDs to give away, and a machine or two that can be booted via the
CDs, to dink around with, maybe, but a showroom environment with a half
dozen or more machines running different environments? I don't see the
payoff for the vendor, yet anyway.
>>
>>>> I can't see most companies doing this for a monetary
>>>> reason, and I don't think a couple of hours with a half dozen
>>>> machines/distros is much play time. But you can get similar access via
>>>> LUGs and such, it might be something to suggest to a LUG near you, to
>>>> bring in a bunch of machines, with different distros, for a walk through
>>>> session. The local LUGS here (we have several in the near area) often do
>>>> installfests, and have monthly meetings covering a variety of
>>>> interesting newbie<->geek level stuff.
>>>
>>> I will be going to a local LUG meeting, and I shall see what I shall see..
>>
>> I'd be interested in how you fare. Please keep us updated.
>
> Will do.
>
tnx.
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Payday came and with it beer.
-- Rudyard Kipling
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 17:21:06 -0700,
Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
> 2vqpf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/5/05 4:12 PM:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:23:38 -0700,
>> Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
>>> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
>>> ebipf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/5/05 1:45 PM:
>>>
>>>>>> I found XP to be slow, clunky, not particularly well thought out in layout
>>>>>> or function.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed. Seems with Linux, though, that I as a user have to make many of
>>>>> the decisions as to what layout I want... a strength and a weakness of
>>>>> Linux.
>>>>
>>>> Have to? I hadn't noticed, can you give an example?
>>>>
>>> It is the down side of being so configurable and having so many distros - a
>>> user at a minimum has to decide what distro they want - or know someone who
>>> has the knowledge to decide of them.
>>
>> Ah, I thought we were discussing a single distro/environment, and the
>> layout of that.
>
> No I mean Linux as a whole - and then, even when you do pick DE and distro,
> it seems that Linux is built to be more configurable. Good for the advanced
> user, but only good for the beginner if you pick the right distro... I
> assume.
Not sure I agree. I haven't tinkered extensively with OSX lately, but
there's a lot of configuration you can do there, even without getting to
the CLI, certainly room to bork things up. I'd put it on a par with
GNOME in this. GNOME starts off with mostly sensible defaults, and if
you never touch them, that's fine, but you can change things, deep in
the system if you wish, just as you can with OSX.
yeah, that sounds like pretty odd behaviour. I mostly ignore the more,
er, irrational of the trolls here, rarely reply to them directly,
although sometimes, I reply to others, *about* them.
Many of them are at the stage of developement of a 5 or 6 yo. Any
attention is good, so flinging food and feces is fine, as long as
someone looks at them and points. It's poor behaviour in a child, in an
adult...
>
>> Yes, as I said, GNOME has done a lot in this area, it's much more like
>> OSX than XP, (IMHO, better than either, but my opinion hasn't been in
>> doubt on this :)
>
> I will try to play some with both GNOME and KDE, since they seem to be the
> biggies on Linux.
They are, the others, like XFCE, WindowMaker, and the many others, have
their charm, some, Like ion have no equivilent in the MS or Apple world,
but for the most part, newbies will be confronted with KDE, and/or
GNOME, until they learn enough to look to alternatives. (Enlightenment
shows a lot of promise, although a bit heavy on the eyecandy and
resources needed for same, I will be keeping an eye on that one. )
>
>> Well, there's a menu item, on the panel... :)
>
> This has been answered - seems you can not make the last one go away.
yeah, I saw that in Liam's (?) post, I hadn't tried to delete them both,
and thus, hadn't come across that feature :)
>>
>> You could navigate to the location (/usr/bin) and select it, but that's
>> not exactly the recommended way, there are over 1700 entries in that dir
>> on my machine here, and it takes nautilus about 10s to load the dir the
>> first time. (takes about 2s after that. I have a slow IDE system on this
>> laptop)
>>
>> Do bear in mind that you'd have to delete *both* panels to get into
>> trouble in this way. The top and bottom panels look different, but
>> they're the same tool, with different settings. One acts like the dock,
>> and the other, more like (though not the same as) the finder. (in the
>> default config, you can configure them differently, obviously.)
>
> Yeah, I pretty quickly figured out they were the same tool... added a bunch,
> deleted a bunch... did not delete the last one but thought about it after I
> had already stopped playing.
>
> Will likely download some LiveCD's for my PC so I can play and still have my
> main machine running OS X.
>
I'd strongly recommend all, or some of the following.
Ubuntu
Knoppix (natch)
DSL (damn small linux, a lot, packed into <50MB)
Mepis
Gnoppix (GNOME flavoured Knoppix IIRC)
Beatrix (Another small one, although it didn't have as good HW det as
DSL when I tried it)
Others of course, but these are the ones I have played with most.
<http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php> is the link I gave
earlier for LiveCDs.
Also, there are specialised LiveCDs for things like computer forensics,
multimedia (Dyne:bolic works very well) and the like. As well as the
general use ones.
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Another name for a Windows tutorial is crash course!
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 17:11:48 -0700,
Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
> nlspf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/5/05 4:41 PM:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:54:34 -0700,
>> Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
>>> "Liam Slider" <li...@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote in post
>>> pan.2005.03.05....@NOSPAM.liamslider.com on 3/5/05 2:55 PM:
>>
>>>> You can't delete every panel, there always has to be at least one panel on
>>>> GNOME. If you try to delete the last one on your desktop, it informs you
>>>> that you can't. Simple.
>>>
>>> Aha. That makes sense and completely answers my first question. Thanks.
>>>
>>> Is there any way to set a panel to be like the defaults that you first get.
>>> If not, it is not a big deal, but it would be a bonus if you can.
>>>
>>
>>
>> blowing away your gnome configs will do that, (sledgehammer on a walnut)
>> or deleting .gnome2/session should do it (worked on a test account here)
>
> Thanks... figured there had to be a way... is that a file similar to an OS X
> pref file?
>
it's just an ascii file, you can edit it manually, although that's
obviously not a newbie kind of thing to do at all :)
Do note that it's a session file, for the GNOME session, so all GNOME
aware apps will have their status saved. This file is written upon
exiting from the gnome-session, either automatically, or if you click
the "save mys session" button in the log off dialog. (depending on your
config, default is to offer the option) If you typically have a lot of
apps open, and want to return to them when you log back in, it can take
a few seconds for GNOME to save the data and close. I usually turn it
off, and don't save session, but sometimes I find it useful. You can
also save a session manually at any time, either through the CLI, or via
the app itself. You can save multiple sessions, and chose among them
upon logging in, although I haven't done this. I just read about it in
the context sensitive (but lacking a search function) help system :)
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose
from.
--- Grace Murray Hopper, as quoted in the Unix Haters Handbook, p.10
Snit
>>>>> Would love to see some company sell different distros pre-installed... and
>>>>> have a show-room where you can play to see the differences.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where's the money?
>>>>>
>>>> Selling boxes with it pre-installed.
>>>>
>>> Don't think that market is there yet, not for a storefront anyway. Online,
>>> yeah, but walkins? no, most of the smaller whitebox builders are struggling
>>> as it is.
>>>
>> Perhaps... though it would certainly help to spread Linux if such a store
>> were around. Maybe be able to sell computers significantly cheaper (no OS to
>> buy - and few applications as most are free) and then sell support plans. I
>> do not see why such a thing could not work.
>
> If you don't see how it couldn't work, then why aren't you out there
> making money hand over fist ? :)
I will be expecting your start up costs check in the mail... plus a group of
folks who know Linux well. :)
>
> I don't disagree that it would be a useful thing to have, to be able to
> point people to, and have them try Linux, I just don't think that
> there's enough of a financial incentive there to make money at it. Even
> for a whitetbox builder. Most folks who go to the computer store,
> allready (mostly) know what they want.
>
> Having CDs to give away, and a machine or two that can be booted via the
> CDs, to dink around with, maybe, but a showroom environment with a half
> dozen or more machines running different environments? I don't see the
> payoff for the vendor, yet anyway.
If Linux becomes more popular, perhaps... of course, the lack of such stores
or other venue to easily compare Linux variants to each other and XP / OS X
may be keeping Linux from gaining popularity.
--
Look, this is silly. It's not an argument, it's an armor plated walrus with
walnut paneling and an all leather interior.
Snit
>>>>>>> I found XP to be slow, clunky, not particularly well thought out in
>>>>>>> layout or function.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed. Seems with Linux, though, that I as a user have to make many of
>>>>>> the decisions as to what layout I want... a strength and a weakness of
>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Have to? I hadn't noticed, can you give an example?
>>>>>
>>>> It is the down side of being so configurable and having so many distros -
>>>> >>>> a user at a minimum has to decide what distro they want - or know
>>>> someone who has the knowledge to decide of them.
>>>>
>>> Ah, I thought we were discussing a single distro/environment, and the layout
>>> of that.
>>>
>> No I mean Linux as a whole - and then, even when you do pick DE and distro,
>> it seems that Linux is built to be more configurable. Good for the advanced
>> user, but only good for the beginner if you pick the right distro... I
>> assume.
>>
> Not sure I agree. I haven't tinkered extensively with OSX lately, but there's
> a lot of configuration you can do there, even without getting to the CLI,
> certainly room to bork things up. I'd put it on a par with GNOME in this.
> GNOME starts off with mostly sensible defaults, and if you never touch them,
> that's fine, but you can change things, deep in the system if you wish, just
> as you can with OSX.
A new user is not going to remove the dock nor the menu from OS X. They
might remove dock icons, such as the volume and the monitor settings, but
the menu itself will always be available. This does not seem to be the case
with GNOME - though I admit I am still very, very new to it. Am I wrong
about this?
<SNIP>
>> I played with the trolls for a long, long time in CSMA. Recently have just
>> grown to bored with their games... and, for that matter, their games have
>> been sinking to lower and lower tactics, as I describe above. One even made
>> some comment about asking me to stop forcing him to confront truths he could
>> not deal with (yes, he really asked me to do that for him). When I brought
>> up the quote from him he started using it as a .sig attributing it to me.
>> Just weird - like the guy was too stupid to know that almost anyone who
>> posts to an advocacy group could look up his lies.
>
> yeah, that sounds like pretty odd behaviour. I mostly ignore the more,
> er, irrational of the trolls here, rarely reply to them directly,
> although sometimes, I reply to others, *about* them.
That is where I am ... though if someone with a history of trolling were to
talk in a reasonable way I would give them a chance... though I have been
burned by that a couple of times.
>
> Many of them are at the stage of developement of a 5 or 6 yo. Any
> attention is good, so flinging food and feces is fine, as long as
> someone looks at them and points. It's poor behaviour in a child, in an
> adult...
I see them as bullies... in the real world they would run and hide the
moment the light is shone on them... behind their keyboard there is almost
nothing you can do to them (nor am I suggesting there should be). But the
relative anonymity allows them the freedom to continue to be horrid little
cretins far longer than they could be face to face.
>>
>>> Yes, as I said, GNOME has done a lot in this area, it's much more like
>>> OSX than XP, (IMHO, better than either, but my opinion hasn't been in
>>> doubt on this :)
>>
>> I will try to play some with both GNOME and KDE, since they seem to be the
>> biggies on Linux.
>
> They are, the others, like XFCE, WindowMaker, and the many others, have
> their charm, some, Like ion have no equivilent in the MS or Apple world,
> but for the most part, newbies will be confronted with KDE, and/or
> GNOME, until they learn enough to look to alternatives. (Enlightenment
> shows a lot of promise, although a bit heavy on the eyecandy and
> resources needed for same, I will be keeping an eye on that one. )
As a Linux newbie, I think I will stick with the big guys at least until I
have a basic feel for them. Probably best supported as well, and I am not
just looking for me, but for people who are relatively new to computers...
and they need all the support they can get. :)
>>
>>> Well, there's a menu item, on the panel... :)
>>
>> This has been answered - seems you can not make the last one go away.
>
> yeah, I saw that in Liam's (?) post, I hadn't tried to delete them both,
> and thus, hadn't come across that feature :)
Fair enough... see, I am a tinkerer... I would have likely tried soon.
>>>
>>> You could navigate to the location (/usr/bin) and select it, but that's
>>> not exactly the recommended way, there are over 1700 entries in that dir
>>> on my machine here, and it takes nautilus about 10s to load the dir the
>>> first time. (takes about 2s after that. I have a slow IDE system on this
>>> laptop)
>>>
>>> Do bear in mind that you'd have to delete *both* panels to get into
>>> trouble in this way. The top and bottom panels look different, but
>>> they're the same tool, with different settings. One acts like the dock,
>>> and the other, more like (though not the same as) the finder. (in the
>>> default config, you can configure them differently, obviously.)
>>
>> Yeah, I pretty quickly figured out they were the same tool... added a bunch,
>> deleted a bunch... did not delete the last one but thought about it after I
>> had already stopped playing.
>>
>> Will likely download some LiveCD's for my PC so I can play and still have my
>> main machine running OS X.
>
> I'd strongly recommend all, or some of the following.
>
> Ubuntu
> Knoppix (natch)
> DSL (damn small linux, a lot, packed into <50MB)
> Mepis
> Gnoppix (GNOME flavoured Knoppix IIRC)
> Beatrix (Another small one, although it didn't have as good HW det as
> DSL when I tried it)
As I type Gnoppix and Ubuntu are now both downloading. In my ignorance of
Linux I tried Gentoo... and found that I could not even get to a GUI...
which for my purposes here is a must.
>
> Others of course, but these are the ones I have played with most.
Thanks. I will likely try Knoppix soon as well.
>
> <http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php> is the link I gave
> earlier for LiveCDs.
>
> Also, there are specialised LiveCDs for things like computer forensics,
> multimedia (Dyne:bolic works very well) and the like. As well as the
> general use ones.
Yes. The list is appreciated. Thanks.
--
If A = B and B = C, then A = C, except where void or prohibited by law.
Roy Santoro, Psycho Proverb Zone (http://snipurl.com/BurdenOfProof)
Snit
>>> On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:54:34 -0700,
>>> Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
>>>> "Liam Slider" <li...@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote in post
>>>> pan.2005.03.05....@NOSPAM.liamslider.com on 3/5/05 2:55 PM:
>>>
>>>>> You can't delete every panel, there always has to be at least one panel on
>>>>> GNOME. If you try to delete the last one on your desktop, it informs you
>>>>> that you can't. Simple.
>>>>
>>>> Aha. That makes sense and completely answers my first question. Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Is there any way to set a panel to be like the defaults that you first get.
>>>> If not, it is not a big deal, but it would be a bonus if you can.
>>>
>>> blowing away your gnome configs will do that, (sledgehammer on a walnut)
>>> or deleting .gnome2/session should do it (worked on a test account here)
>>
>> Thanks... figured there had to be a way... is that a file similar to an OS X
>> pref file?
>
> it's just an ascii file, you can edit it manually, although that's
> obviously not a newbie kind of thing to do at all :)
What I meant as being like the OS X pref files is that they are small files
that maintain prefs - a different file for each program, but organized in a
reasonable way (all in the same folder in the User folder somewhere).
Apple's pref files are like this, all XML.
>
> Do note that it's a session file, for the GNOME session, so all GNOME
> aware apps will have their status saved. This file is written upon
> exiting from the gnome-session, either automatically, or if you click
> the "save mys session" button in the log off dialog. (depending on your
> config, default is to offer the option) If you typically have a lot of
> apps open, and want to return to them when you log back in, it can take
> a few seconds for GNOME to save the data and close. I usually turn it
> off, and don't save session, but sometimes I find it useful. You can
> also save a session manually at any time, either through the CLI, or via
> the app itself. You can save multiple sessions, and chose among them
> upon logging in, although I haven't done this. I just read about it in
> the context sensitive (but lacking a search function) help system :)
Sounds like a cool thing... any idea how it handles different machines with
different software?
Liam Slider
Actually, I'd say that while your average newbie might add and remove
things from the panel, I don't see them deleting the main menu itself...if
they were to do so adding it back is trivial. In fact, I don't see your
average user doing much with the panel at all. The options are there, and
are extremely easy to discover and use...but I don't see the average Joe
user doing that all that often.
<snip>
>>
>> They are, the others, like XFCE, WindowMaker, and the many others, have
>> their charm, some, Like ion have no equivilent in the MS or Apple
>> world, but for the most part, newbies will be confronted with KDE,
>> and/or GNOME, until they learn enough to look to alternatives.
>> (Enlightenment shows a lot of promise, although a bit heavy on the
>> eyecandy and resources needed for same, I will be keeping an eye on
>> that one. )
>
> As a Linux newbie, I think I will stick with the big guys at least until
> I have a basic feel for them. Probably best supported as well, and I am
> not just looking for me, but for people who are relatively new to
> computers... and they need all the support they can get. :)
XFCE may be worth looking into. They way I've been hearing it's been
shaping up to try to change the "big two" into a "big three." At the same
time, it's fairly similar in some ways to GNOME, including compatibility
with GNOME themes.
>>>> Well, there's a menu item, on the panel... :)
>>>
>>> This has been answered - seems you can not make the last one go away.
>>
>> yeah, I saw that in Liam's (?) post, I hadn't tried to delete them
>> both, and thus, hadn't come across that feature :)
>
> Fair enough... see, I am a tinkerer... I would have likely tried soon.
I discovered it due to poking around in the documentation.
<snip>
>> <http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php> is the link I gave
>> earlier for LiveCDs.
>>
>> Also, there are specialised LiveCDs for things like computer forensics,
>> multimedia (Dyne:bolic works very well) and the like. As well as the
>> general use ones.
>
> Yes. The list is appreciated. Thanks.
I highly recommend Dynebolic. It's a multimedia powerhouse. Digital video
editing (including HD capable), music studio, audio and video streaming,
DTP, 2D and 3D graphics editing, even has a bunch of fairly nice
games....all on a single CD.
Snit
>> A new user is not going to remove the dock nor the menu from OS X. They
>> might remove dock icons, such as the volume and the monitor settings,
>> but the menu itself will always be available. This does not seem to be
>> the case with GNOME - though I admit I am still very, very new to it.
>> Am I wrong about this?
>
> Actually, I'd say that while your average newbie might add and remove
> things from the panel, I don't see them deleting the main menu itself...if
> they were to do so adding it back is trivial. In fact, I don't see your
> average user doing much with the panel at all. The options are there, and
> are extremely easy to discover and use...but I don't see the average Joe
> user doing that all that often.
I do not think they would do so on purpose... but I could see them
accidentally right clicking when then meant to click and getting "lost" and
then randomly clicking... or just as they get a bit more confident and start
exploring... though for many folks they never seem to get to that point.
>
> <snip>
>>>
>>> They are, the others, like XFCE, WindowMaker, and the many others, have
>>> their charm, some, Like ion have no equivilent in the MS or Apple
>>> world, but for the most part, newbies will be confronted with KDE,
>>> and/or GNOME, until they learn enough to look to alternatives.
>>> (Enlightenment shows a lot of promise, although a bit heavy on the
>>> eyecandy and resources needed for same, I will be keeping an eye on
>>> that one. )
>>
>> As a Linux newbie, I think I will stick with the big guys at least until
>> I have a basic feel for them. Probably best supported as well, and I am
>> not just looking for me, but for people who are relatively new to
>> computers... and they need all the support they can get. :)
>
> XFCE may be worth looking into. They way I've been hearing it's been
> shaping up to try to change the "big two" into a "big three." At the same
> time, it's fairly similar in some ways to GNOME, including compatibility
> with GNOME themes.
Hey, one step at a time, OK buddy! :)
>
>>>>> Well, there's a menu item, on the panel... :)
>>>>
>>>> This has been answered - seems you can not make the last one go away.
>>>
>>> yeah, I saw that in Liam's (?) post, I hadn't tried to delete them
>>> both, and thus, hadn't come across that feature :)
>>
>> Fair enough... see, I am a tinkerer... I would have likely tried soon.
>
> I discovered it due to poking around in the documentation.
>
> <snip>
>>> <http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php> is the link I gave
>>> earlier for LiveCDs.
>>>
>>> Also, there are specialised LiveCDs for things like computer forensics,
>>> multimedia (Dyne:bolic works very well) and the like. As well as the
>>> general use ones.
>>
>> Yes. The list is appreciated. Thanks.
>
> I highly recommend Dynebolic. It's a multimedia powerhouse. Digital video
> editing (including HD capable), music studio, audio and video streaming,
> DTP, 2D and 3D graphics editing, even has a bunch of fairly nice
> games....all on a single CD.
Added to my list...
--
"If a million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."
- Anatole France
_________________________________________
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 19:38:05 -0700,
Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
> givpf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/5/05 5:30 PM:
>
>>>>>> Would love to see some company sell different distros pre-installed... and
>>>>>> have a show-room where you can play to see the differences.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where's the money?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Selling boxes with it pre-installed.
>>>>>
>>>> Don't think that market is there yet, not for a storefront anyway. Online,
>>>> yeah, but walkins? no, most of the smaller whitebox builders are struggling
>>>> as it is.
>>>>
>>> Perhaps... though it would certainly help to spread Linux if such a store
>>> were around. Maybe be able to sell computers significantly cheaper (no OS to
>>> buy - and few applications as most are free) and then sell support plans. I
>>> do not see why such a thing could not work.
>>
>> If you don't see how it couldn't work, then why aren't you out there
>> making money hand over fist ? :)
>
> I will be expecting your start up costs check in the mail... plus a group of
> folks who know Linux well. :)
yeah, you do that! :)
>>
>> I don't disagree that it would be a useful thing to have, to be able to
>> point people to, and have them try Linux, I just don't think that
>> there's enough of a financial incentive there to make money at it. Even
>> for a whitetbox builder. Most folks who go to the computer store,
>> allready (mostly) know what they want.
>>
>> Having CDs to give away, and a machine or two that can be booted via the
>> CDs, to dink around with, maybe, but a showroom environment with a half
>> dozen or more machines running different environments? I don't see the
>> payoff for the vendor, yet anyway.
>
> If Linux becomes more popular, perhaps... of course, the lack of such stores
> or other venue to easily compare Linux variants to each other and XP / OS X
> may be keeping Linux from gaining popularity.
>
Not sure I agree, Linux is still at the informed user choice stage. Few
people are going to "just switch" they will switch based on work
changing to Linux, or having a Linux savvy friend steer them there.
some, because they got curious and started looking into it themselves.
But I don't see walk inßbuyers changing to Linux, just because they saw
a pretty screen. The FUD from MS, is still pretty strong, even among the
non-digerati.
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
"Giving money and power to government is like giving whisky and
car keys to teenage boys." -- P.J. O'Rourke
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
Well, I think we've established that you can't remove the last panel.
You can remove all but the last one though.
><SNIP>
>
>>> I played with the trolls for a long, long time in CSMA. Recently have just
>>> grown to bored with their games... and, for that matter, their games have
>>> been sinking to lower and lower tactics, as I describe above. One even made
>>> some comment about asking me to stop forcing him to confront truths he could
>>> not deal with (yes, he really asked me to do that for him). When I brought
>>> up the quote from him he started using it as a .sig attributing it to me.
>>> Just weird - like the guy was too stupid to know that almost anyone who
>>> posts to an advocacy group could look up his lies.
>>
>> yeah, that sounds like pretty odd behaviour. I mostly ignore the more,
>> er, irrational of the trolls here, rarely reply to them directly,
>> although sometimes, I reply to others, *about* them.
>
> That is where I am ... though if someone with a history of trolling were to
> talk in a reasonable way I would give them a chance... though I have been
> burned by that a couple of times.
yeah, that's the usual pattern, troll starts playing nice, and within a
short period of time, from a couple of posts, to a month or so, is back
to usual troll behaviour. It's a psychological flaw, or several of them,
and isn't likely to change without a lot of work on the troll's part...
>>
>> Many of them are at the stage of developement of a 5 or 6 yo. Any
>> attention is good, so flinging food and feces is fine, as long as
>> someone looks at them and points. It's poor behaviour in a child, in an
>> adult...
>
> I see them as bullies... in the real world they would run and hide the
> moment the light is shone on them... behind their keyboard there is almost
> nothing you can do to them (nor am I suggesting there should be). But the
> relative anonymity allows them the freedom to continue to be horrid little
> cretins far longer than they could be face to face.
Agreed. I sincerely doubt that they act this way in person, there are
hazards to that sort of behaviour :)
>>>
>>>> Yes, as I said, GNOME has done a lot in this area, it's much more like
>>>> OSX than XP, (IMHO, better than either, but my opinion hasn't been in
>>>> doubt on this :)
>>>
>>> I will try to play some with both GNOME and KDE, since they seem to be the
>>> biggies on Linux.
>>
>> They are, the others, like XFCE, WindowMaker, and the many others, have
>> their charm, some, Like ion have no equivilent in the MS or Apple world,
>> but for the most part, newbies will be confronted with KDE, and/or
>> GNOME, until they learn enough to look to alternatives. (Enlightenment
>> shows a lot of promise, although a bit heavy on the eyecandy and
>> resources needed for same, I will be keeping an eye on that one. )
>
> As a Linux newbie, I think I will stick with the big guys at least until I
> have a basic feel for them. Probably best supported as well, and I am not
> just looking for me, but for people who are relatively new to computers...
> and they need all the support they can get. :)
ion is... interesting. Quite useful, in context, but it's like the vi of
windowmanagers, until you get to know it, you'll be pounding the kbd in
frustration. but yeah, KDE and GNOME are the directions I tend to point
newbies in, they can make a more informed decision later if they wish to
change.
Actually, I found Gentoo to be a very straightforward install, just
takes a bit of time. (for a compile everything) There are Gentoo
LiveCDs, and they are worth looking at. But the full install is fine,
for someone who is willing to read the simple instructions, and wait.
>>
>> Others of course, but these are the ones I have played with most.
>
> Thanks. I will likely try Knoppix soon as well.
>>
>> <http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php> is the link I gave
>> earlier for LiveCDs.
>>
>> Also, there are specialised LiveCDs for things like computer forensics,
>> multimedia (Dyne:bolic works very well) and the like. As well as the
>> general use ones.
>
> Yes. The list is appreciated. Thanks.
>
>
>
nichevo.
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
"Black holes are where God divided by zero".
Snit
>> If Linux becomes more popular, perhaps... of course, the lack of such stores
>> or other venue to easily compare Linux variants to each other and XP / OS X
>> may be keeping Linux from gaining popularity.
>>
>
>
> Not sure I agree, Linux is still at the informed user choice stage. Few
> people are going to "just switch" they will switch based on work
> changing to Linux, or having a Linux savvy friend steer them there.
> some, because they got curious and started looking into it themselves.
> But I don't see walk inßbuyers changing to Linux, just because they saw
> a pretty screen. The FUD from MS, is still pretty strong, even among the
> non-digerati.
I don't know... I see a lot of students who just want away from the MS
garbage... if there is a good alterative they might jump. Many of my
students end up moving to Mac. No reason to think some percentage of these
folks would move to Linux, assuming it served their needs and was "pretty".
--
If A = B and B = C, then A = C, except where void or prohibited by law.
Roy Santoro, Psycho Proverb Zone (http://snipurl.com/BurdenOfProof)
Snit
>> A new user is not going to remove the dock nor the menu from OS X. They
>> might remove dock icons, such as the volume and the monitor settings, but
>> the menu itself will always be available. This does not seem to be the case
>> with GNOME - though I admit I am still very, very new to it. Am I wrong
>> about this?
>
> Well, I think we've established that you can't remove the last panel.
> You can remove all but the last one though.
Just tested that myself... in my PC. Downloaded Warty for the PC... will
post a report soon - most likely tomorrow.
>
>> <SNIP>
>>
>>>> I played with the trolls for a long, long time in CSMA. Recently have just
>>>> grown to bored with their games... and, for that matter, their games have
>>>> been sinking to lower and lower tactics, as I describe above. One even
>>>> made
>>>> some comment about asking me to stop forcing him to confront truths he
>>>> could
>>>> not deal with (yes, he really asked me to do that for him). When I brought
>>>> up the quote from him he started using it as a .sig attributing it to me.
>>>> Just weird - like the guy was too stupid to know that almost anyone who
>>>> posts to an advocacy group could look up his lies.
>>>
>>> yeah, that sounds like pretty odd behaviour. I mostly ignore the more,
>>> er, irrational of the trolls here, rarely reply to them directly,
>>> although sometimes, I reply to others, *about* them.
>>
>> That is where I am ... though if someone with a history of trolling were to
>> talk in a reasonable way I would give them a chance... though I have been
>> burned by that a couple of times.
>
> yeah, that's the usual pattern, troll starts playing nice, and within a
> short period of time, from a couple of posts, to a month or so, is back
> to usual troll behaviour. It's a psychological flaw, or several of them,
> and isn't likely to change without a lot of work on the troll's part...
LOL... very true.
>>>
>>> Many of them are at the stage of developement of a 5 or 6 yo. Any
>>> attention is good, so flinging food and feces is fine, as long as
>>> someone looks at them and points. It's poor behaviour in a child, in an
>>> adult...
>>
>> I see them as bullies... in the real world they would run and hide the
>> moment the light is shone on them... behind their keyboard there is almost
>> nothing you can do to them (nor am I suggesting there should be). But the
>> relative anonymity allows them the freedom to continue to be horrid little
>> cretins far longer than they could be face to face.
>
> Agreed. I sincerely doubt that they act this way in person, there are
> hazards to that sort of behaviour :)
No doubt. I think Darwin may have had a prediction or two about face to
face trolling...
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, as I said, GNOME has done a lot in this area, it's much more like
>>>>> OSX than XP, (IMHO, better than either, but my opinion hasn't been in
>>>>> doubt on this :)
>>>>
>>>> I will try to play some with both GNOME and KDE, since they seem to be the
>>>> biggies on Linux.
>>>
>>> They are, the others, like XFCE, WindowMaker, and the many others, have
>>> their charm, some, Like ion have no equivilent in the MS or Apple world,
>>> but for the most part, newbies will be confronted with KDE, and/or
>>> GNOME, until they learn enough to look to alternatives. (Enlightenment
>>> shows a lot of promise, although a bit heavy on the eyecandy and
>>> resources needed for same, I will be keeping an eye on that one. )
>>
>> As a Linux newbie, I think I will stick with the big guys at least until I
>> have a basic feel for them. Probably best supported as well, and I am not
>> just looking for me, but for people who are relatively new to computers...
>> and they need all the support they can get. :)
>
> ion is... interesting. Quite useful, in context, but it's like the vi of
> windowmanagers, until you get to know it, you'll be pounding the kbd in
> frustration. but yeah, KDE and GNOME are the directions I tend to point
> newbies in, they can make a more informed decision later if they wish to
> change.
Exactly. For the record, I prefer VI to emacs... largely because of
familiarity... though I have used neither on a regular basis for years.
<SNIP>
>>> I'd strongly recommend all, or some of the following.
>>>
>>> Ubuntu
>>> Knoppix (natch)
>>> DSL (damn small linux, a lot, packed into <50MB)
>>> Mepis
>>> Gnoppix (GNOME flavoured Knoppix IIRC)
>>> Beatrix (Another small one, although it didn't have as good HW det as
>>> DSL when I tried it)
>>
>> As I type Gnoppix and Ubuntu are now both downloading. In my ignorance of
>> Linux I tried Gentoo... and found that I could not even get to a GUI...
>> which for my purposes here is a must.
>
> Actually, I found Gentoo to be a very straightforward install, just
> takes a bit of time. (for a compile everything) There are Gentoo
> LiveCDs, and they are worth looking at. But the full install is fine,
> for someone who is willing to read the simple instructions, and wait.
I tried a LiveCD and did not see an easy way to get to any GUI. Not sure
what went wrong.
--
I am one of only .3% of people who have avoided becoming a statistic.
Elizabot v2.0.2
>
> nichevo.
Снит имеет трудности с иностранным языком
(I'm curious how well your newsreader handles Cyrillic.)
--
Peter Köhlmann
> Jim Richardson wrote:
>
>>
>> nichevo.
>
> Снит имеет трудности с иностранным языком
>
> (I'm curious how well your newsreader handles Cyrillic.)
>
Well, I did nop notice any problems. But then, linux newsreaders tend to be
better than average
--
Who the fuck is General Failure, and why is he reading my harddisk?
Steve Carroll
Jim Richardson <war...@eskimo.com> wrote:
> yeah, that's the usual pattern, troll starts playing nice, and within a
> short period of time, from a couple of posts, to a month or so, is back
> to usual troll behaviour. It's a psychological flaw, or several of them,
> and isn't likely to change without a lot of work on the troll's part...
>
You're being trolled right now. This list is just some of the comments
this NG has made in observance of Snit's behavior. There are many more.
Here is one that really pegs Snit... and this by a woman who rarely
comes to csma...
ShutterBugz: "so snit-zel has some kind of problem expressing anger,
i guess. he has to vent his frustrations in other ways. and he thinks
he's making sense: well the syntax is there and he figures he's pretty
smart. indeed, he tells us, he's done the personality tests and the iq
tests and he's okay! aaaaahhhhh, you see he's soooooooo well adjusted."
Look below, can this many people (virtually every regular poster) be
wrong?
----------------------
Snit: "I do not believe in consensus reality. I believe in facts."
Fact is most csma posters have noticed that Snit is different. Here is
what over 40 different posters have to say about him.
----- NEW CSMA_MODERATOR'S FAVORITES! -----
Alan Baker: "People's perceptions of you are *formed* by behaviour and
not withstanding your occasional on topic posts, I wish you'd leave too.
Please note that despite the amazing silliness that is Edwin, I have
never made the same wish of him."
Andrew J. Brehm: "You are not flamed because you speak the truth, you
are flamed because you are a hideous troll and keep disrupting the
newsgroup."
C Lund: "Snit is not my responsibility.
Maybe it's time for you to learn how to use your kill-filter. I am
assuming, of course, that your Usenet browser has a kill-filter."
Mark Kent (cola): "Please don't troll any more - it's very tedious."
Mike Dee: "Y'now, I don't think I've ever come across anyone before such
as youself in any other NG, who could single-handedly unify troll and
advocate alike into a such coagulant mass of resistance against him or
herself."
news/Andy: : "Snit you obviously need to be more precise when you argue
with some people, or are you doing it deliberately?"
Rick (cola): "Snit... why don't go try to start fights somewhere else?
TravelinMan: "I'm really curious about this idiot. What is it that
drives him to come back day after day only to be lambasted by nearly
every single person here.
Does he really crave attention that much?"
-------------------------------------------
--------- (DIS)HONORABLE MENTIONS ---------
Andrew J. Brehm: "Snit, you are the number one reason for flames and the
number one troll in csma.
We have had some huge flame wars here and lots of trolling, but you
really took the cake.
They have been here for years. The disruptions only came with you. Snit,
don't you get it? YOU are the cause, not the cure."
C Lund: "Snit, that's a circus post. >B("
Edwin: "Then you are a shameless liar, as you have been given the proof
you demand on innumerable occasions. You ignore it, snip it, and then
demand it again."
Edwin: "To CSMA, an ernest plea:
Everyone must ignore Snit and his sock puppets. The man is never going
to improve. Unless you want this group to be alt.fan.snit.circus, you
must resist all temptation to reply to Snit.
For your own good, for the good of the group, and even for the good of
Snit himself, reign in the madness. Please."
Elizabot v 2.0.2: "You are rather ignorant for someone who claims to
teach windows classes at a college."
Mark Kent (cola): "You're trolling big time, frankly."
Mark Kent (cola): "How can you claim you want to learn, when you also
state that you are completely unwilling to put any effort into learning?
You say that you are a college lecturer, yet you seem to not
comprehend the importance of proper research and work."
Mayor of R'lyeh: "How could the voices in your head be 'technical' folks
when you constantly demonstrate that you're not one yourself?"
Sandman: "Have you noticed that no one - not even the people that I -DO-
generally engage in wild discussions with, such as Edwin, hjas come to
your aid and aghreed what a horrible person I am?"
Sandman: "Only people considered to be the largest troll this group has
ever seen and the most killfiled person in the history of csma should
leave.
That's you."
Steve Carroll: "Gee, Snit, you don't appear to have lived up to your
words here. I come back on Monday and I see many instances of you
disrupting both NG's."
Tim Adams: "Then - GO AWAY! Problem solved. See how easy it is?"
Wally: "Why do you think it is only "Windows apologists" that disbelieve
your stories?...the fact is this is the one area where most, regardless
of platform choice are as one! you are a known liar......get over it!
LOL "
------------------------------------------------------------
----------- CSMA_MODERATOR'S ALL TIME FAVORITES! -----------
1- Alan Baker: "People's perceptions of you are *formed* by behaviour
and not withstanding your occasional on topic posts, I wish you'd leave
too.
Please note that despite the amazing silliness that is Edwin, I have
never made the same wish of him."
2- Andrew J. Brehm: "You are not flamed because you speak the truth, you
are flamed because you are a hideous troll and keep disrupting the
newsgroup."
3- B.B.: "Yes, this thread is an excellent example of you trolling.
Unless there's a point you're trying to get across rather than simple
nay-saying."
4- Bob S: "This has always been pretty much a free-for-all group, but
since Snit showed up, its become almost impossible to have a decent
discussion about anything.
The solution is to NOT REPLY TO SNIT. But for some reason, some people
just can't stop feeding him."
5- b unny: "snit makes me sad."
6- buzz off: "Snit is obviously mentally ill..."
7- C Lund: "Snit is not my responsibility.
Maybe it's time for you to learn how to use your kill-filter. I am
assuming, of course, that your Usenet browser has a kill-filter."
8- Code Orange: "Then why post it? What need is there for you to "win"
an argument? They don't like you, you don't like them. Why must you keep
this up? What results are you expecting?"
9- Dawg Tail: "You've already apologized for having already misread what
I had previously written. What makes you think that you're correctly
understanding what I'm writting now. You've got a history of reading
into things what you wanted people to have said instead of what they
really said. I suggest you get over this limitation of yours. It's
making you look foolish."
Dawg Tail: "PC advocates, Mac advocates, Linux advocates. Almost all of
them are making similar claims about Snit. When you have so many diverse
people who share a common perception where do you think the problem
lies? With Snit? Or almost everyone else? The answer doesn't require an
advanced degree to figure out."
10- ed: "it's been good talking to you snit- i need to have a good
argument with you once in a while to remind me how delusional and silly
you are! you never cease to amuse me w/ your inability to counter facts
w/ baseless assertions! however, we have gotten to that traditional
point in a thread- the point when snit gets to dumb, annoying and/or
tedious, and it's time for me to withdraw from this thread. laters."
11- Edwin: "The worst troll this NG has ever seen is playing the part of
the victim... you can almost hear the violins playing in the background
as he whines... hilarious..."
12- Elijah Baley: "If there's ever been a better example of a sociopath
than this Snit character I haven't seen one."
13- Elizabot v2.0.2: "I see you were unable to respond to the points in
my post and you are back to your repetitious regurgitation mode. How
childishly typical of you, Snit. "
14- George Graves: "Jason. You have started an argument with the Snit
(AKA Michael Glasser), this should not be done. He will drive you crazy
with his twisted logic, his deep-rooted need to be ALWAYS right at any
cost. He will move goalposts, set up strawmen, and bore you into
submission with his endless pedanticism. The only way to engage him is
to hit and run. NEVER engage him, it's a futile, empty procedure that
will only anger you and feed him. Take my advice and STAY AWAY!"
15- Heywood Mogroot: "*plonk*"
16- Jason McNorton: "You're one of the many, many paranoid people on
usenet that should be confined most likely. You sit there and refresh
your screen endlessly. You post the same nonsense over and over.
Either you're a super troll, or you're a super mess."
17- Jeff Hoppe: "This is a Macintosh Advocacy newsgroup. Not a 12-step
recovery plan. Your medical problems or conditions won't help me
achieve a greater understanding of my Mac. In fact, it detracts from it
and those kinds of discussions have no place in a newsgroup such as
this."
18- Jim Lee Jr. : "Troll."
19- John Q. Public: "I have not been bothered to read Snit's postings
since I figured out who he is. I don't bother to filter his posts, I
just consider the source and skip to the next one when I see his name."
20- John Slade: "Snit is full of shit and knows little about computers.
However I don't think anyone should leave based on how stupid they are.
Everyone has a right to say whatever they want. If Snit wants to display
his ignorance and lack of knowledge, he should have that right."
21- Mark Kent (cola): "Please don't troll any more - it's very tedious."
22- Mayor of R'lyeh: "Here's a hint. Whenever Snit is involved double
check everything. He's a major jackass and loves to do things like this."
23- Mike: "The evidence is overwhelming, and self-explanatory. You're
not smart enough to get someone *already there* to press the floppy
eject button - assuming, of course, that this Carefully Contrived
Scenario actually happened. Which we can only assume that it did not.
All we have is your word - hardly compelling."
24- Mike Dee: "Y'now, I don't think I've ever come across anyone before
such as youself in any other NG, who could single-handedly unify troll
and advocate alike into a such coagulant mass of resistance against him
or herself."
25- MR_ED_of_Course: "Seriously, spend half a day at any pre-school or
kindergarten and see if the kids there can't teach you a thing or two
about social behavior."
26- Muahman: "Ummm, dude you post 1000 posts a day. 999 of them are
trolls, if anyone here has issues it's not me."
27- Nashton: "This issue was beaten to death. I cannot imagine why Snit
is bringing it up and why anybody would bother to engage in conversation
with him on this topic."
28- Nasht0n: "Oh for crying out loud, if I wasn't convinced that snit is
a total loser, and I rarely call people losers, I certainly am now. Why
bother responding to his stupidities anyway?"
29- news/Andy: : "Snit you obviously need to be more precise when you
argue with some people, or are you doing it deliberately?"
30- Oxford: "If you are using MT-Newswatcher:
Select offending Author, example Snit...
Go to the Filters Menu, Choose "Kill this Author"
Click "OK"
Then Repeat with each annoying Author of your choice.
Then to see your work...
Choose the Filter Menu again,
Then "Refilter Articles"...
Bam! No more boring, pointless bickering about nothing.
Enjoy!!!!!"
31- Peter: "I've never felt the need to use the filters in Newswatcher
but I thought Id try the Kill this Author.. option with Snit. Ten
seconds later and he's gone! Amazing."
32- Phil Earnhardt: "You're only interested in trying to get superficial
snipes and extrapolate inappropriate conclusions."
33- Rick (cola): "Snit... why don't go try to start fights somewhere
else?"
34- Rick G.: "My opinion is now that Snit likes to stir things up and
goad people into responding."
35- Sandman: "Well, this is pointless now. You are a troll and even
substantiated facts can't get in your way. You have become a menace to
this group and people are starting to leave the group because of you.
You are hereby the first troll to ever enter my killfile, since I no
longer wish have anything to do with a compulsive liar such as yourself.
...
*plonk*"
36- Sean Burke: If you're dumb enough to respond to snit, you're
probably dumb enough to click on a spam attachment that promises to
remove smut from your harddrive."
37- ShutterBugz: "so snit-zel has some kind of problem expressing anger,
i guess. he has to vent his frustrations in other ways. and he thinks
he's making sense: well the syntax is there and he figures he's pretty
smart. indeed, he tells us, he's done the personality tests and the iq
tests and he's okay! aaaaahhhhh, you see he's soooooooo well adjusted."
38- Steve Carroll: "It's really bizarre... Snit appears to have a
certain level of intelligence... then, he'll lie with the most foolish
lies, that are so easily shown as lies... and you wonder where that
intelligence went."
39- Steve Mackay: "Just killfile Snit, the dishonest piece of elephant
dung, and all would go away. Sure, I got caught up in the "Snit Circus",
but then the cotton candy began to sour, and CSMA begun to smell like
elephant dung. It's much better now that he's in my kill file. :)"
40- Tim Adams: "I'd kill file you but then I'd miss the fun. you see,
you never cease to amaze me at just how stupid you really are. Why just
the other day I had a great laugh when I saw you, the king of liars (in
this NG anyway) calling somebody else a liar."
41- Tim Smith: "Another troll attempt using a random redirector."
42- Timberwoof: "*Plonk!*"
43- Tommy: "LIAR!!!"
44- TravelinMan: "I'm really curious about this idiot. What is it that
drives him to come back day after day only to be lambasted by nearly
every single person here.
Does he really crave attention that much?"
45- Wally: "Because by your own admission "honor and honesty" are
nothing more than a "game" to you, as such not only do you wish to
define the rules, but no doubt you will also attempt to alter or bend
the rules when inevitably things do not go to your liking, for this
reason I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to play your game."
46- William R. Walsh: "Now, if you'll excuse me, and accept my sincere
apologies for this, PLONK!
Feel proud about that. You're the first person to be plonked from my new
computer! :-) "
47- Woofbert: "*Plonk*"
48- Znu: "I think your 'I'll go start a new thread to try to draw more
people into the debate I'm currently having with Steve/Elizabot/etc'
tactic is fairly trollish."
--
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 01:53:07 -0700,
Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
> oapqf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/6/05 12:50 AM:
>
>>> If Linux becomes more popular, perhaps... of course, the lack of such stores
>>> or other venue to easily compare Linux variants to each other and XP / OS X
>>> may be keeping Linux from gaining popularity.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Not sure I agree, Linux is still at the informed user choice stage. Few
>> people are going to "just switch" they will switch based on work
>> changing to Linux, or having a Linux savvy friend steer them there.
>> some, because they got curious and started looking into it themselves.
>> But I don't see walk inßbuyers changing to Linux, just because they saw
>> a pretty screen. The FUD from MS, is still pretty strong, even among the
>> non-digerati.
>
> I don't know... I see a lot of students who just want away from the MS
> garbage... if there is a good alterative they might jump. Many of my
> students end up moving to Mac. No reason to think some percentage of these
> folks would move to Linux, assuming it served their needs and was "pretty".
>
That's not my point at all. I just don't see a money return on a
showroom with a bunch of machines set up for people to try out.
I don't say it wouldn't be useful, just that it wouldn't make enough money to make it worthwhile from a business standpoint.
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
The reason the Irish are always fighting each other
is they have no other worthy opponents.
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 19:55:08 -0700,
Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
> u34qf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/5/05 6:48 PM:
>
>> it's just an ascii file, you can edit it manually, although that's
>> obviously not a newbie kind of thing to do at all :)
>
> What I meant as being like the OS X pref files is that they are small files
> that maintain prefs - a different file for each program, but organized in a
> reasonable way (all in the same folder in the User folder somewhere).
>
> Apple's pref files are like this, all XML.
with GNOME, most is in the .gconf directory. Some stuff in the .gnome*
directories, but I don't know what the split up reasons are, other that
legacy. I think the intent is to push everything into .gconf.
>>
>> Do note that it's a session file, for the GNOME session, so all GNOME
>> aware apps will have their status saved. This file is written upon
>> exiting from the gnome-session, either automatically, or if you click
>> the "save mys session" button in the log off dialog. (depending on your
>> config, default is to offer the option) If you typically have a lot of
>> apps open, and want to return to them when you log back in, it can take
>> a few seconds for GNOME to save the data and close. I usually turn it
>> off, and don't save session, but sometimes I find it useful. You can
>> also save a session manually at any time, either through the CLI, or via
>> the app itself. You can save multiple sessions, and chose among them
>> upon logging in, although I haven't done this. I just read about it in
>> the context sensitive (but lacking a search function) help system :)
>
> Sounds like a cool thing... any idea how it handles different machines with
> different software?
>
Not sure what you are asking.
If you mean, can you copy a session file to another machine, and use it
there, yes, you can. If the session refers to apps that aren't installed
on that machine, it will pop up a warning dialog stating that it can't
load that binary, but will continue with the others.
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Nine out of ten of the voices in my head say "Don't shoot!"
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 01:58:09 -0700,
Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
> m2pqf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/6/05 12:45 AM:
>
>> Agreed. I sincerely doubt that they act this way in person, there are
>> hazards to that sort of behaviour :)
>
> No doubt. I think Darwin may have had a prediction or two about face to
> face trolling...
yeah, it's not a survival strategy. :)
>
>> Actually, I found Gentoo to be a very straightforward install, just
>> takes a bit of time. (for a compile everything) There are Gentoo
>> LiveCDs, and they are worth looking at. But the full install is fine,
>> for someone who is willing to read the simple instructions, and wait.
>
> I tried a LiveCD and did not see an easy way to get to any GUI. Not sure
> what went wrong.
Depending on the LiveCD, there may not be one installed. The install
liveCD doesn't have one IIRC. But the games editions do, and there's a
LiveCD with it, can't recall if it was from the core Gentoo project, or
someone else.
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
The mouth of a perfectly happy man is filled with beer.
--Ancient Egyptian Wisdom, 2200 B.C.
TravelinMan
Peter K喇lmann <Peter.K...@t-online.de> wrote:
> begin virus.scr Elizabot v2.0.2 wrote:
>
> > Jim Richardson wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> nichevo.
> >
> > Снит имеет трудности с иностранным
> > языком
> >
> > (I'm curious how well your newsreader handles Cyrillic.)
> >
>
> Well, I did nop notice any problems. But then, linux newsreaders tend to be
> better than average
Other than their allegedly deleting groups from the followup field.
Or was that just your lying?
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 15:32:20 +0100,
Peter Köhlmann <Peter.K...@t-online.de> wrote:
> begin virus.scr Elizabot v2.0.2 wrote:
>
>> Jim Richardson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> nichevo.
>>
>> ???? ????? ????????? ? ??????????? ??????
>>
>> (I'm curious how well your newsreader handles Cyrillic.)
>>
>
> Well, I did nop notice any problems. But then, linux newsreaders tend to be
> better than average
It's not really a newsreader issue anyway, slrn happily deals with any
characters you throw at it, it's a matter of the term setup. If you
don't set up the term for cyrillic support (or the distro didn't do
that) you won't get it. Like on OSX, where it isn't (or at least wasn't,
maybe changed now) set up for cyrillic.
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
"We have captured lightning and used it to teach sand how to think."
Snit
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 19:55:08 -0700,
> Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
>> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
>> u34qf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/5/05 6:48 PM:
>>
>>> it's just an ascii file, you can edit it manually, although that's
>>> obviously not a newbie kind of thing to do at all :)
>>
>> What I meant as being like the OS X pref files is that they are small files
>> that maintain prefs - a different file for each program, but organized in a
>> reasonable way (all in the same folder in the User folder somewhere).
>>
>> Apple's pref files are like this, all XML.
>
> with GNOME, most is in the .gconf directory. Some stuff in the .gnome*
> directories, but I don't know what the split up reasons are, other that
> legacy. I think the intent is to push everything into .gconf.
Hopefully if there are split it is not for an arbitrary reason - or, as you
say, they are working on correcting that. There is some arbitrariness to
the placement of files in the OS X Libraries, but not much. They are
organized quite well.
>>>
>>> Do note that it's a session file, for the GNOME session, so all GNOME
>>> aware apps will have their status saved. This file is written upon
>>> exiting from the gnome-session, either automatically, or if you click
>>> the "save mys session" button in the log off dialog. (depending on your
>>> config, default is to offer the option) If you typically have a lot of
>>> apps open, and want to return to them when you log back in, it can take
>>> a few seconds for GNOME to save the data and close. I usually turn it
>>> off, and don't save session, but sometimes I find it useful. You can
>>> also save a session manually at any time, either through the CLI, or via
>>> the app itself. You can save multiple sessions, and chose among them
>>> upon logging in, although I haven't done this. I just read about it in
>>> the context sensitive (but lacking a search function) help system :)
>>
>> Sounds like a cool thing... any idea how it handles different machines with
>> different software?
>
> Not sure what you are asking.
Well, then, how do you provide such a good answer, below? :)
>
> If you mean, can you copy a session file to another machine, and use it
> there, yes, you can. If the session refers to apps that aren't installed
> on that machine, it will pop up a warning dialog stating that it can't
> load that binary, but will continue with the others.
That answers the question... thanks... and it seems like it does this the
"right" way.
--
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters." - Alan Simpson
_________________________________________
Snit
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 01:58:09 -0700,
> Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
>> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
>> m2pqf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/6/05 12:45 AM:
>>
>>> Agreed. I sincerely doubt that they act this way in person, there are
>>> hazards to that sort of behaviour :)
>>
>> No doubt. I think Darwin may have had a prediction or two about face to
>> face trolling...
>
> yeah, it's not a survival strategy. :)
They tend to come and go... wonder if during the times they are gone they
are recovering in some hospital? :)
>>
>>> Actually, I found Gentoo to be a very straightforward install, just
>>> takes a bit of time. (for a compile everything) There are Gentoo
>>> LiveCDs, and they are worth looking at. But the full install is fine,
>>> for someone who is willing to read the simple instructions, and wait.
>>
>> I tried a LiveCD and did not see an easy way to get to any GUI. Not sure
>> what went wrong.
>
> Depending on the LiveCD, there may not be one installed. The install
> liveCD doesn't have one IIRC. But the games editions do, and there's a
> LiveCD with it, can't recall if it was from the core Gentoo project, or
> someone else.
I will have to tinker later... thanks.
--
"If a million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."
- Anatole France
_________________________________________
Snit
Well, I would still like to see it tried... likely not in my small town, but
in a bigger city. Never know...
--
Picture of a tuna milkshake: http://snipurl.com/bh6q
Feel free to ask for the recipe.
_________________________________________
Jim Richardson
Hash: SHA1
On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 15:03:39 -0700,
Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
> hisrf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/6/05 10:51 AM:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 19:55:08 -0700,
>> Snit <SN...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote:
>>> "Jim Richardson" <war...@eskimo.com> wrote in post
>>> u34qf2-...@grendel.myth on 3/5/05 6:48 PM:
>>>
>>>> it's just an ascii file, you can edit it manually, although that's
>>>> obviously not a newbie kind of thing to do at all :)
>>>
>>> What I meant as being like the OS X pref files is that they are small files
>>> that maintain prefs - a different file for each program, but organized in a
>>> reasonable way (all in the same folder in the User folder somewhere).
>>>
>>> Apple's pref files are like this, all XML.
>>
>> with GNOME, most is in the .gconf directory. Some stuff in the .gnome*
>> directories, but I don't know what the split up reasons are, other that
>> legacy. I think the intent is to push everything into .gconf.
>
> Hopefully if there are split it is not for an arbitrary reason - or, as you
> say, they are working on correcting that. There is some arbitrariness to
> the placement of files in the OS X Libraries, but not much. They are
> organized quite well.
Like I said, it seems to be legacy related, and improving.
>>>>
>>>> Do note that it's a session file, for the GNOME session, so all GNOME
>>>> aware apps will have their status saved. This file is written upon
>>>> exiting from the gnome-session, either automatically, or if you click
>>>> the "save mys session" button in the log off dialog. (depending on your
>>>> config, default is to offer the option) If you typically have a lot of
>>>> apps open, and want to return to them when you log back in, it can take
>>>> a few seconds for GNOME to save the data and close. I usually turn it
>>>> off, and don't save session, but sometimes I find it useful. You can
>>>> also save a session manually at any time, either through the CLI, or via
>>>> the app itself. You can save multiple sessions, and chose among them
>>>> upon logging in, although I haven't done this. I just read about it in
>>>> the context sensitive (but lacking a search function) help system :)
>>>
>>> Sounds like a cool thing... any idea how it handles different machines with
>>> different software?
>>
>> Not sure what you are asking.
>
> Well, then, how do you provide such a good answer, below? :)
>>
>> If you mean, can you copy a session file to another machine, and use it
>> there, yes, you can. If the session refers to apps that aren't installed
>> on that machine, it will pop up a warning dialog stating that it can't
>> load that binary, but will continue with the others.
>
> That answers the question... thanks... and it seems like it does this the
> "right" way.
>
>
GNOME tries to follow the law of least surprises. Not perfectly, but
pretty well. Also, it tends to inform the user, not overwhelm them.
Frankly, I find GNOME a huge improvement over XP, and on a par with OSX
for interface. Most of the differences between GNOME and OSX, can be put
down to personal preference, rather than "better" or "worse"
Comparing to XP however...
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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Never appeal to a man's 'better nature.' He may not have one. Invoking his
self-interest gives you more leverage. -- Lazarus Long
Snit
>>>> it's just an ascii file, you can edit it manually, although that's
>>>>> obviously not a newbie kind of thing to do at all :)
>>>>
>>>> What I meant as being like the OS X pref files is that they are small files
>>>> that maintain prefs - a different file for each program, but organized in a
>>>> reasonable way (all in the same folder in the User folder somewhere).
>>>>
>>>> Apple's pref files are like this, all XML.
>>>
>>> with GNOME, most is in the .gconf directory. Some stuff in the .gnome*
>>> directories, but I don't know what the split up reasons are, other that
>>> legacy. I think the intent is to push everything into .gconf.
>>
>> Hopefully if there are split it is not for an arbitrary reason - or, as you
>> say, they are working on correcting that. There is some arbitrariness to
>> the placement of files in the OS X Libraries, but not much. They are
>> organized quite well.
>
> Like I said, it seems to be legacy related, and improving.
Well, while it would be good if this was a past issue and not a current, it
is good it is improving. What more could I ask for? :)
I don't know... I find OS X to be far better than XP, and I am not finding
GNOME to be the equal of OS X. Maybe as I learn some of GNOME's strengths
that OS X is missing? I do like some of the flexibility of GNOME - but that
is mostly a bonus for folks who tinker. For most people I think OS X is far
better.
--
Look, this is silly. It's not an argument, it's an armor plated walrus with
walnut paneling and an all leather interior.
Linønut
> I don't know... I find OS X to be far better than XP, and I am not finding
> GNOME to be the equal of OS X. Maybe as I learn some of GNOME's strengths
> that OS X is missing? I do like some of the flexibility of GNOME - but that
> is mostly a bonus for folks who tinker. For most people I think OS X is far
> better.
Unfortunately, OS X is proprietary and much less accessible than the
open-source/free operating systems.
Many people don't give a tinker's cuss about having any small set of nifty
features that another platform has, if they don't have full access to that
platform.
And Gnome ain't the whole free universe, anyway. By any means.
--
When was the last time you thought about
Microsoft, except in frustration or anger?
-- Michael S. Malone, Silicon Insider
Snit
Tb2dnSRoqIU...@comcast.com on 3/7/05 5:23 AM:
> Snit poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>
>> I don't know... I find OS X to be far better than XP, and I am not finding
>> GNOME to be the equal of OS X. Maybe as I learn some of GNOME's strengths
>> that OS X is missing? I do like some of the flexibility of GNOME - but that
>> is mostly a bonus for folks who tinker. For most people I think OS X is far
>> better.
>
> Unfortunately, OS X is proprietary and much less accessible than the
> open-source/free operating systems.
Accessible in what way? The code? There is no doubt about that - but that
is not relevant for the audience I am looking at Linux for. Or really, for
that matter, myself. I am not likely to recode any part of the OS.
>
> Many people don't give a tinker's cuss about having any small set of nifty
> features that another platform has, if they don't have full access to that
> platform.
>
> And Gnome ain't the whole free universe, anyway. By any means.
Of course not. But I can not compare all DE's with each other in one
sitting, now can I. I will next be looking at KDE.
TravelinMan
Linųnut <linųn...@bone.com> wrote:
> Snit poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>
> > I don't know... I find OS X to be far better than XP, and I am not finding
> > GNOME to be the equal of OS X. Maybe as I learn some of GNOME's strengths
> > that OS X is missing? I do like some of the flexibility of GNOME - but that
> > is mostly a bonus for folks who tinker. For most people I think OS X is far
> > better.
>
> Unfortunately, OS X is proprietary and much less accessible than the
> open-source/free operating systems.
In what way?
The kernel for OS X is open source. The upper layers are quite
accessible - you can compile your Linux apps and run them just fine.
What is it about OS X that limits anyone but a fascist geek who insists
that something must be free to be any good?
>
> Many people don't give a tinker's cuss about having any small set of nifty
> features that another platform has, if they don't have full access to that
> platform.
Wrong. MOST people just want their computer to work. Without futzing.
Linønut
> Accessible in what way? The code?
Not just code. Modules, drivers, documentation, the ability to use and
duplicate the software without restriction, a choice of desktop paradigms,
open standards and adherence to those standards, the availability of
applications, and the ease with which they are found and put to use.
> There is no doubt about that - but that
> is not relevant for the audience I am looking at Linux for. Or really, for
> that matter, myself. I am not likely to recode any part of the OS.
Of course not. But others do the recoding for you, with the fastest
turnaround in the industry.
>> Many people don't give a tinker's cuss about having any small set of nifty
>> features that another platform has, if they don't have full access to that
>> platform.
>>
>> And Gnome ain't the whole free universe, anyway. By any means.
>
> Of course not. But I can not compare all DE's with each other in one
> sitting, now can I. I will next be looking at KDE.
Gnome and KDE ain't nearly the whole free universe.
Linønut
> The kernel for OS X is open source. The upper layers are quite
> accessible - you can compile your Linux apps and run them just fine.
Can you modify, recompile, test, and distribute your modified OS X kernel?
> What is it about OS X that limits anyone but a fascist geek who insists
> that something must be free to be any good?
Try running OS X on non-Apple hardware then. Hint: even if technically
demonstrable, the OS X EULA prohibits it.
Yeah, that's what I call real freedom.
>> Many people don't give a tinker's cuss about having any small set of nifty
>> features that another platform has, if they don't have full access to that
>> platform.
>
> Wrong. MOST people just want their computer to work. Without futzing.
Then why do MOST people still run Windows? Hmmm?
TravelinMan
Linųnut <linųn...@bone.com> wrote:
> TravelinMan poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>
> > The kernel for OS X is open source. The upper layers are quite
> > accessible - you can compile your Linux apps and run them just fine.
>
> Can you modify, recompile, test, and distribute your modified OS X kernel?
Sure. Why not?
Don't you EVER try to learn about things before making yourself look
foolish?
>
> > What is it about OS X that limits anyone but a fascist geek who insists
> > that something must be free to be any good?
>
> Try running OS X on non-Apple hardware then. Hint: even if technically
> demonstrable, the OS X EULA prohibits it.
So? That doesn't limit anyone who has a Mac to run OS X. You're talking
in circles.
>
> Yeah, that's what I call real freedom.
I'm not the one pretending that freedom is the only thing in the world
that matters.
>
> >> Many people don't give a tinker's cuss about having any small set of nifty
> >> features that another platform has, if they don't have full access to that
> >> platform.
> >
> > Wrong. MOST people just want their computer to work. Without futzing.
>
> Then why do MOST people still run Windows? Hmmm?
How many Windows users care about compiling a kernel or writing their
own drivers? Hmmm?
TravelinMan
Linųnut <linųn...@bone.com> wrote:
> Snit poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>
> > Accessible in what way? The code?
>
> Not just code. Modules, drivers, documentation, the ability to use and
> duplicate the software without restriction, a choice of desktop paradigms,
> open standards and adherence to those standards, the availability of
> applications, and the ease with which they are found and put to use.
>
> > There is no doubt about that - but that
> > is not relevant for the audience I am looking at Linux for. Or really, for
> > that matter, myself. I am not likely to recode any part of the OS.
>
> Of course not. But others do the recoding for you, with the fastest
> turnaround in the industry.
>
> >> Many people don't give a tinker's cuss about having any small set of nifty
> >> features that another platform has, if they don't have full access to that
> >> platform.
> >>
> >> And Gnome ain't the whole free universe, anyway. By any means.
> >
> > Of course not. But I can not compare all DE's with each other in one
> > sitting, now can I. I will next be looking at KDE.
>
> Gnome and KDE ain't nearly the whole free universe.
Of course not. They're just 2 of the 298 window managers that we're
supposed to try before concluding that Linux doesn't meet our needs.
Peter Köhlmann
> In article <stmdnb-iSNZ...@comcast.com>,
> Linønut <linøn...@bone.com> wrote:
>
>> TravelinMan poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>>
>> > The kernel for OS X is open source. The upper layers are quite
>> > accessible - you can compile your Linux apps and run them just fine.
>>
>> Can you modify, recompile, test, and distribute your modified OS X
>> kernel?
>
> Sure. Why not?
>
> Don't you EVER try to learn about things before making yourself look
> foolish?
>
Well, did you ask apple what they think of you distributing the kernel?
After all, you are one of the clueless Mac-retards who "interpret" apples
EULAs rather frivolently
>>
>> > What is it about OS X that limits anyone but a fascist geek who insists
>> > that something must be free to be any good?
>>
>> Try running OS X on non-Apple hardware then. Hint: even if technically
>> demonstrable, the OS X EULA prohibits it.
>
> So? That doesn't limit anyone who has a Mac to run OS X. You're talking
> in circles.
>
Do you ever answer the points?
Why is it that you constantly redefine and then answer your own points?
>>
>> Yeah, that's what I call real freedom.
>
> I'm not the one pretending that freedom is the only thing in the world
> that matters.
>
No, you are pretending that this is the only thing that matters to linux
advocates. It is *one* of the important things, not the only one
>>
>> >> Many people don't give a tinker's cuss about having any small set of
>> >> nifty features that another platform has, if they don't have full
>> >> access to that platform.
>> >
>> > Wrong. MOST people just want their computer to work. Without futzing.
>>
>> Then why do MOST people still run Windows? Hmmm?
>
> How many Windows users care about compiling a kernel or writing their
> own drivers? Hmmm?
Well, how many /could/ even if they wanted dearly?
--
There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.
TravelinMan
Peter Köhlmann <Peter.K...@t-online.de> wrote:
> begin virus.scr TravelinMan wrote:
>
> > In article <stmdnb-iSNZ...@comcast.com>,
> > Lin?nut <lin?n...@bone.com> wrote:
> >
> >> TravelinMan poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
> >>
> >> > The kernel for OS X is open source. The upper layers are quite
> >> > accessible - you can compile your Linux apps and run them just fine.
> >>
> >> Can you modify, recompile, test, and distribute your modified OS X
> >> kernel?
> >
> > Sure. Why not?
> >
> > Don't you EVER try to learn about things before making yourself look
> > foolish?
> >
>
> Well, did you ask apple what they think of you distributing the kernel?
> After all, you are one of the clueless Mac-retards who "interpret" apples
> EULAs rather frivolently
The kernel is open source.
So, once again I must ask: Don't you EVER try to learn about things
before making yourself look foolish?
>
> >>
> >> > What is it about OS X that limits anyone but a fascist geek who insists
> >> > that something must be free to be any good?
> >>
> >> Try running OS X on non-Apple hardware then. Hint: even if technically
> >> demonstrable, the OS X EULA prohibits it.
> >
> > So? That doesn't limit anyone who has a Mac to run OS X. You're talking
> > in circles.
> >
>
> Do you ever answer the points?
> Why is it that you constantly redefine and then answer your own points?
No, you said that OS X was limited because it's not free.
ANYONE who uses OS X has a Mac, so that fact that it only runs on Macs
is irrelevant.
Granted, like all Linux loonies, you're only interested in software you
can get for free and install on your $299 Walmart special, but that's
not of any interest to me.
>
> >>
> >> Yeah, that's what I call real freedom.
> >
> > I'm not the one pretending that freedom is the only thing in the world
> > that matters.
> >
>
> No, you are pretending that this is the only thing that matters to linux
> advocates. It is *one* of the important things, not the only one
I haven't seen any evidence of others.
>
> >>
> >> >> Many people don't give a tinker's cuss about having any small set of
> >> >> nifty features that another platform has, if they don't have full
> >> >> access to that platform.
> >> >
> >> > Wrong. MOST people just want their computer to work. Without futzing.
> >>
> >> Then why do MOST people still run Windows? Hmmm?
> >
> > How many Windows users care about compiling a kernel or writing their
> > own drivers? Hmmm?
>
> Well, how many /could/ even if they wanted dearly?
Probably few. Which simply proves my point. WHat YOU want in a computer
is not what most of the world wants.
The Ghost In The Machine
<Now...@spamfree.com>
wrote
on Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:38:02 GMT
<Nowhere-884CE4...@news1.west.earthlink.net>:
> In article <stmdnbyiSNZ...@comcast.com>,
Exactly. Everyone should just use Windows. None of this
lily-livered cowardly "oh let's see which one I like" crap;
just use what's available from Microsoft.
After all, they've spent man-*years* on IE (among other things)
and Outlook, and have now perfected both.
Well, sort of, anyway.
</sarcasm>
ObMac: At least I can trust OSX not to do absolutely brain-dead
stupid things, like confusing "Open" with "Execute". I can't
say how reliable OSX is since I've not used it.
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
It's still legal to go .sigless.
Linønut
> In article <stmdnb-iSNZ...@comcast.com>,
> Linønut <linøn...@bone.com> wrote:
>
>> TravelinMan poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>>
>> > The kernel for OS X is open source. The upper layers are quite
>> > accessible - you can compile your Linux apps and run them just fine.
>>
>> Can you modify, recompile, test, and distribute your modified OS X kernel?
>
> Sure. Why not?
>
> Don't you EVER try to learn about things before making yourself look
> foolish?
So you are saying that Apple will have no problem with you modifying and
distributing their kernel?
Why don't you check with Apple?
http://www.apple.com/legal/sla/macosxpanther.html
3. Transfer. You may not rent, lease, lend, redistribute or sublicense
the Apple Software.
B. Certain components of the Apple Software, and third party open source
programs included with the Apple Software, have been or may be made
available by Apple on its Open Source web site
(http://www.opensource.apple.com/) (collectively the "Open-Sourced
Components"). You may modify or replace only these Open-Sourced
Components; provided that: (i) the resultant modified Apple Software is
used, in place of the unmodified Apple Software, on a single
Apple-labeled computer;
3. Transfer. You may not rent, lease, lend, redistribute or sublicense
the Apple Software.
> So? That doesn't limit anyone who has a Mac to run OS X. You're talking
> in circles.
Here's what you asked:
>> > What is it about OS X that limits anyone...
Here's what I said:
>> Try running OS X on non-Apple hardware then.
There's the limit. Got it now?
But, in view of the fact that you pretty much lied straight-faced about
being able to redistribute the kernel, I'm done here.
Linønut
>>> > Wrong. MOST people just want their computer to work. Without futzing.
>>>
>>> Then why do MOST people still run Windows? Hmmm?
>>
>> How many Windows users care about compiling a kernel or writing their
>> own drivers? Hmmm?
>
> Well, how many /could/ even if they wanted dearly?
Travelin' Man just won't get pinned down, will he?
Mark Kent
> In article <m2pqf2-...@grendel.myth>,
> Jim Richardson <war...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>
>> yeah, that's the usual pattern, troll starts playing nice, and within a
>> short period of time, from a couple of posts, to a month or so, is back
>> to usual troll behaviour. It's a psychological flaw, or several of them,
>> and isn't likely to change without a lot of work on the troll's part...
>>
>
> You're being trolled right now. This list is just some of the comments
> this NG has made in observance of Snit's behavior. There are many more.
> Here is one that really pegs Snit... and this by a woman who rarely
> comes to csma...
>
> ShutterBugz: "so snit-zel has some kind of problem expressing anger,
> i guess. he has to vent his frustrations in other ways. and he thinks
> he's making sense: well the syntax is there and he figures he's pretty
> smart. indeed, he tells us, he's done the personality tests and the iq
> tests and he's okay! aaaaahhhhh, you see he's soooooooo well adjusted."
>
>
> Look below, can this many people (virtually every regular poster) be
> wrong?
>
<snip impressive 47 snit-related quotes>
I was not alone in plonking, then...
--
| Mark Kent -- mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
You don't have to know how the computer works, just how to work the computer.
Steve Carroll
Mark Kent <mark...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Steve Carroll <no...@nowhere.com> espoused:
> > In article <m2pqf2-...@grendel.myth>,
> > Jim Richardson <war...@eskimo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> yeah, that's the usual pattern, troll starts playing nice, and within a
> >> short period of time, from a couple of posts, to a month or so, is back
> >> to usual troll behaviour. It's a psychological flaw, or several of them,
> >> and isn't likely to change without a lot of work on the troll's part...
> >>
> >
> > You're being trolled right now. This list is just some of the comments
> > this NG has made in observance of Snit's behavior. There are many more.
> > Here is one that really pegs Snit... and this by a woman who rarely
> > comes to csma...
> >
> > ShutterBugz: "so snit-zel has some kind of problem expressing anger,
> > i guess. he has to vent his frustrations in other ways. and he thinks
> > he's making sense: well the syntax is there and he figures he's pretty
> > smart. indeed, he tells us, he's done the personality tests and the iq
> > tests and he's okay! aaaaahhhhh, you see he's soooooooo well adjusted."
> >
> >
> > Look below, can this many people (virtually every regular poster) be
> > wrong?
> >
>
> <snip impressive 47 snit-related quotes>
This was far from complete.
>
> I was not alone in plonking, then...
Not by a long shot.
Elizabot v2.0.2
> Steve Carroll <no...@nowhere.com> espoused:
>
>>In article <m2pqf2-...@grendel.myth>,
>> Jim Richardson <war...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>yeah, that's the usual pattern, troll starts playing nice, and within a
>>>short period of time, from a couple of posts, to a month or so, is back
>>>to usual troll behaviour. It's a psychological flaw, or several of them,
>>>and isn't likely to change without a lot of work on the troll's part...
>>>
>>
>>You're being trolled right now. This list is just some of the comments
>>this NG has made in observance of Snit's behavior. There are many more.
>>Here is one that really pegs Snit... and this by a woman who rarely
>>comes to csma...
>>
>>ShutterBugz: "so snit-zel has some kind of problem expressing anger,
>>i guess. he has to vent his frustrations in other ways. and he thinks
>>he's making sense: well the syntax is there and he figures he's pretty
>>smart. indeed, he tells us, he's done the personality tests and the iq
>>tests and he's okay! aaaaahhhhh, you see he's soooooooo well adjusted."
>>
>>
>>Look below, can this many people (virtually every regular poster) be
>>wrong?
>>
>
>
> <snip impressive 47 snit-related quotes>
>
> I was not alone in plonking, then...
I've plonked him in the past, but then he used the fact that I'd plonked
him to harass me "behind my back". I'm talking about his making up some
pretty crazy vindictive stuff. I've see him take up that tactic with
other posters too, but not nearly as nasty as he did with me.
It's like how some kids act up if the teacher leaves the room, or how
some kids act bad to get attention. Or, as I see Snit's case, how some
kids throw a temper tantrum when they don't get their own way.
--
By responding to Elizabot v2.0.2 you implicitly agree to the TOS at:
http://elizabot.spymac.net/
Mark Kent
Ummm - seriously disturbed personality..? Some of Snit's debating
tactics had a hint of irrationality.
>
> It's like how some kids act up if the teacher leaves the room, or how
> some kids act bad to get attention. Or, as I see Snit's case, how some
> kids throw a temper tantrum when they don't get their own way.
>
I generally plonk silently now, in order to avoid this kind of problem.
--
| Mark Kent -- mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
"America is a stronger nation for the ACLU's uncompromising effort."
-- President John F. Kennedy
Mark Kent
>
> Especially you, Snit.
>
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/altstevecarrollisatroll
>
> It's "fascinating" that you and your well-established sockpuppet
> "sigmond" are the only two obvious posters in the above newsgroup.
>
> It's also "fascinating" that about the same time of the first post made
> by your sockpuppet that you went through the following handles, IMO to
> get past peoples' kill filters:
>
>
> CSMA...@HOTMAIL.COM
>
> te...@test.edu
>
> snit-...@CABLE0NE.NET
>
> SN...@CABLE0NE.NET
>
> sn...@hotmail.com
>
> sn...@CABLE0NE.NET
>
> SN...@CABLE0NE.NET
>
> snit....@cable1.net
>
> snit-...@cableone.net
>
oh gods, a nym-shifter too... yuk.
--
| Mark Kent -- mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
Whenever I hear anyone arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to
see it tried on him personally.
-- Abraham Lincoln