Yet another problem I only get...phantom iTunes
Steve de Mena
and pasted this problem from a web site or pulled it out of my ass.
This is on my Mac Pro. Uptime: about 12 hours. 13GB of RAM. A pretty
healthy beast.
I connected my iPhone 3G to iTunes and was updating some apps. They
had all downloaded from ITS to my PC. But there was a beachball on
the screen. After 10 minutes it was still there. So I killed the
iTunes task in Activity Monitor.
Now look at the video:
1) The iTunes icon still shows the "loaded" indicator beneath it
2) It's not listed in Activity Monitor
3) Right clicking the icon and choosing "Force Quit" does nothing
4) Clicking the icon to reload it does nothing.
I need to restart the system (maybe forcibly) to correct this. (Did I
have another option?)
http://www.screencast.com/t/honVjSbwMV
Steve
David Moyer
> I need to restart the system (maybe forcibly) to correct this. (Did I
> have another option?)
>
> http://www.screencast.com/t/honVjSbwMV
just reinstall itunes... google: itunes.
Snit
on 6/17/09 2:46 PM:
Some things you could have tried:
* Option-Right-Click and select Force Quit. Even when "Force Quit" is
showing, holding down the Option often seems to do more. I have no
idea why and I think this is annoying.
* Quitting the Dock... maybe it really was not running (not any other
process associated with it that would make it seem to be....?)
* Looking to see if there were any items related to iTunes in the
Activity Monitor - though sometimes the naming conventions are
not obvious, they often are.
* Log out and log back in
Not saying it was not an odd quirk and a problem... just some things you
could have tried.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Steve Carroll
Try killing the process (via process ID in a terminal window, you can
find the ID with "top")? Usually works for me.
> (Did I have another option?)
I think the one I just gave would have worked... can't guarantee it,
though, after all, you *are* Steve de Mena;)
> http://www.screencast.com/t/honVjSbwMV
>
> Steve
John
"Steve de Mena" <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote in message
news:2pmdnSqXeIjW-aTX...@giganews.com...
Clever "making up problems" I see. Now you have actually resorted to
creating a phony video.
Steve de Mena
> On Jun 17, 3:46 pm, Steve de Mena <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote:
>> OK, got another one for you. With a video, so I don't hear how I cut
>> and pasted this problem from a web site or pulled it out of my ass.
>>
>> This is on my Mac Pro. Uptime: about 12 hours. 13GB of RAM. A pretty
>> healthy beast.
>>
>> I connected my iPhone 3G to iTunes and was updating some apps. They
>> had all downloaded from ITS to my PC. But there was a beachball on
>> the screen. After 10 minutes it was still there. So I killed the
>> iTunes task in Activity Monitor.
>>
>> Now look at the video:
>> 1) The iTunes icon still shows the "loaded" indicator beneath it
>> 2) It's not listed in Activity Monitor
>> 3) Right clicking the icon and choosing "Force Quit" does nothing
>> 4) Clicking the icon to reload it does nothing.
>>
>> I need to restart the system (maybe forcibly) to correct this.
>
> Try killing the process (via process ID in a terminal window, you can
> find the ID with "top")? Usually works for me.
It's not listed. Did "ps -e" and "top". Not there.
Steve
Steve de Mena
>
> Clever "making up problems" I see. Now you have actually resorted to
> creating a phony video.
It cost me $5 million of my own money to bring in George Lucas' ILM
people to create that video for you. I hope you appreciate it.
Now how bout giving me a useful tip on how to resolve this without
rebooting?
Steve
Snit
on 6/17/09 6:31 PM:
If iTunes is not listed in Activity Monitor, as you said, it would be really
strange to see it listed with the top command.
Now there might be related processes, but in general those should not show
iTunes itself as running... though, as I posted before, I suppose that is
possible.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
GreyCloud
I smell photoshop in his screencast here. I've yet to see a UNIX system
not restart or shutdown over a few
user apps. Looks to me like it is all baloney.
--
"It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument."
William G. McAdoo.
American Government official (1863-1941).
GreyCloud
Oh, it will be there if he did issue a cli command. I say he is lying
thru his teeth now.
GreyCloud
How come I smell photoshop here?
GreyCloud
Hah! My grandson can do that for you for $20.
Snit
6/17/09 8:20 PM:
I have seen the dot on the Dock when an application is not running... but if
it is not shown in Activity Monitor it would be bizarre to see it in Top.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
6/17/09 8:19 PM:
If I have some time I might try to replicate the situation... just open a
bunch of apps and hit restart. It is likely to happen.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
ZnU
GreyCloud <cum...@mist.com> wrote:
One should keep in mind that Steve apparently has 250,000 songs in
iTunes and blames Apple for the fact that it doesn't perform well with a
music library probably 100x the average size.
--
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
Steve de Mena
>> I smell photoshop in his screencast here. I've yet to see a UNIX system
>> not restart or shutdown over a few
>> user apps. Looks to me like it is all baloney.
"I smell Photoshop" Oh brother. I told you, it's George Lucas' ILM!!
> One should keep in mind that Steve apparently has 250,000 songs in
> iTunes and blames Apple for the fact that it doesn't perform well with a
> music library probably 100x the average size.
So iTunes is supposed to lock up like that? LOL.
How about my other video where TextEdit halted a Restart? Explain
that away.
Steve
Steve de Mena
> ZnU wrote:
>
>>> I smell photoshop in his screencast here. I've yet to see a UNIX
>>> system not restart or shutdown over a few
>>> user apps. Looks to me like it is all baloney.
>
> "I smell Photoshop" Oh brother. I told you, it's George Lucas' ILM!!
>
>> One should keep in mind that Steve apparently has 250,000 songs in
>> iTunes and blames Apple for the fact that it doesn't perform well with
>> a music library probably 100x the average size.
Yeah, I'm sure it had nothing to do with ITS being swamped today with
iPhone activations and it having to get over a dozen app updates for
my phone when I docked it this afternoon. Thats when it
"beachballed". LOL
Steve
Snit
on 6/17/09 11:28 PM:
The reboot timeout is easy to replicate:
<http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/timeout.mov>
The fact even something this simple is a debating point in CSMA is sad...
come on Mac users, do not lie and deny in order to make OS X sound better.
This is a common and easy to replicate situation.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Steve de Mena
> I smell photoshop in his screencast here. I've yet to see a UNIX system
> not restart or shutdown over a few
> user apps.
You've seen it now. In Living Color!
> Looks to me like it is all baloney.
Guffaw!!
In case you want to see it again:
http://www.screencast.com/t/honVjSbwMV
Steve
jon
>
>
> I need to restart the system (maybe forcibly) to correct this. (Did I
> have another option?)
>
> http://www.screencast.com/t/honVjSbwMV
>
> Steve
Yes, go to Terminal and type 'Killall Dock' (case sensitive)
This will force the Dock to quit and reload.
Steve de Mena
Thanks. I'll try this if it happens again.
Steve
Fa-groon
(in article <znu-2C3CD6.0...@Port80.Individual.NET>):
250,000 SONGS? I wasn't aware that there even were 250,000 songs. How does
one listen to that many, or more to the point, how does one find anything
among 250, 000?
Fa-groon
(in article <PcudnYhdhc7gQ6TX...@giganews.com>):
My Macs don't do that, I tried. Even with unsaved files on the screen, I
couldn't get TextEdit to halt the shutdown procedure. It asks whether or not
I want to save the current file, but whether I do or I don't choose to save
the file, the shutdown continues. I think you must have a broken Mac (or
you're making things up - three guesses as to which *I* think it is).
Snit
6/18/09 11:48 AM:
Open enough large programs where it takes a couple of minutes to shut them
down... looks like the timeout period is about 90 seconds:
<http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/timeout.mov>
This is not hard to replicate.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Steve de Mena
> 250,000 SONGS? I wasn't aware that there even were 250,000 songs. How does
> one listen to that many, or more to the point, how does one find anything
> among 250, 000?
How does one find anything? iTunes has a search function.
Steve
Steve de Mena
Yeah, and my broken mac can spread those systems to a different Mac of
mine.
If you don't believe the video and think I somehow concocted this up
(because if it doesn't happen to you it's not to be believed) than
just killfile me or don't bother replying to my posts.
Steve
Fa-groon
(in article <qMydnUv8xMX2JqfX...@giganews.com>):
I'll reply to your posts that I want to reply to, thank you. You are a MS
shill and a troll, but your not as blatant about it as the zara-thing or the
Muahman, so some people visiting here might actually believe your bullshit.
Somebody has to call you on it, just to keep you honest.
Fa-groon
(in article <qMydnUj8xMV2J6fX...@giganews.com>):
Why 250,000 songs? You can't actually tell me that you listen to (or even
like) all of them!
Snit
6/18/09 4:11 PM:
If you want to call someone on BS, at least make sure it is BS. The shut
down issue he talks about is almost trivial to replicate:
<http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/timeout.mov>
Why is this even a debate? Does anyone really deny OS X does this?
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
6/18/09 4:13 PM:
My library is not that big, but it has music for many people - I have my
computer hooked up to speakers in our main room, so there are play lists for
my kids, for my wife, etc. Then if you add spoken-voice to the mix you can
get quite a few. Granted, 250,000 is much larger than my collection... at
least 25x so.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Steve de Mena
There is nothing to "call" me on. What I report about is fact. You
obviously can't find legitimate facts to refute most of what I say, so
you just resort to putting the generic "troll" label on me.
The shutdown flaw I documented is indicative of a flaw in OS X or one
of the apps running. Period.
Steve
Steve de Mena
of the iPhone OS. Wouldn't want any duplicate address book entries......
Steve
GreyCloud
I've never seen the dot on the Dock app except for the finder.
The Unix ps command in the cli will always report what apps are running,
what apps are idle, what apps are actually in a
zombie state. Also shows whether the process is root, wheel, or user.
A running app won't escape ps. That's why I say that demena is lying
thru his teeth as all apps have process IDs assigned to them.
GreyCloud
For Unix, it would be a non-issue. A program, depending on how well it
is designed, has to respond to the signal 15 for
shutdowns, and the large app may take a little bit of time. On the
large UNIX systems I always gave 10 minutes as a parameter
for the shutdown command so that the logged in users have time to
shutdown their apps. If they don't shut down their apps,
they may lose data, but the system does shutdown. Demenas case has no
merit at all.
GreyCloud
Put the cap back on the glue. That will help.
GreyCloud
Point one... shut down the app. Who doesn't before a restart?
More of a BSD policy. It isn't the policy of SYSV tho.
No one is lying here, but demenas credibility is very shaky.
GreyCloud
All you have to do is change the system timeout policy.
But then, why leave your apps open and then issue a restart or a shutdown?
Mind you, I've had Safari open in one space, XCode opened in another
space, and Netbeans open in another space.
I did a restart... and the apps shutdown and then the system restarted.
Netbeans and Xcode are not small apps.
GreyCloud
Better yet, take a hike.
GreyCloud
As I've posted before... I can't get it to replicate. But then I have
my memory maxed out too.
GreyCloud
Guffaw!!! I smell photoshop mostly. But why leave any app open and
then issue a restart or a shutdown?
Ignorance can be cured, but your stupidity can't.
Snit
6/18/09 7:01 PM:
>>> My Macs don't do that, I tried. Even with unsaved files on the screen, I
>>> couldn't get TextEdit to halt the shutdown procedure. It asks whether or not
>>> I want to save the current file, but whether I do or I don't choose to save
>>> the file, the shutdown continues. I think you must have a broken Mac (or
>>> you're making things up - three guesses as to which *I* think it is).
>>>
>> Open enough large programs where it takes a couple of minutes to shut them
>> down... looks like the timeout period is about 90 seconds:
>>
>> <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/timeout.mov>
>>
>> This is not hard to replicate.
>>
>
> All you have to do is change the system timeout policy.
Where do you do that? I assume there is some setting in a plist file... do
not know where and not a big enough deal to mess with a system plist. I did
just look in TinkerTool just to see - not there.
> But then, why leave your apps open and then issue a restart or a shutdown?
I generally run an Automator script I set up to quit all apps - it is a
Finder plug-in and very easy to get to.
> Mind you, I've had Safari open in one space, XCode opened in another
> space, and Netbeans open in another space.
> I did a restart... and the apps shutdown and then the system restarted.
> Netbeans and Xcode are not small apps.
I often have Mail, Safari, Firefox, Chrome (recently), NetNewsWire, iCal,
CyberDuck, Dreamweaver, Photoshop, iTunes, TextWrangler, TextEdit, Preview,
Pages, Parallels, Entourage, and more open... I assume this is why I see it:
some of those programs take a long time to correctly shut down. Would be
nice if the OS gave you a dialog letting you know shut down was taking a
long time and gave you the option to cancel or not - with the default being
to not... that way you could just walk away. Might even have it where
opened files are saved in a folder on the desktop - that way you can restart
even if you have unsaved data (at least from most programs).
This whole issue is really not that big of a deal - it is not like it is
that bad... just not ideal. Not sure why people are denying it and making
such a fuss over it.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
6/18/09 6:58 PM:
I tend to take people at their word, except in extreme examples of people
who have proved they are not to *ever* be trusted - the situation he
described is a reasonable one to run into.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
6/18/09 6:51 PM:
>>>> Now there might be related processes, but in general those should not show
>>>> iTunes itself as running... though, as I posted before, I suppose that is
>>>> possible.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Oh, it will be there if he did issue a cli command. I say he is lying
>>> thru his teeth now.
>>>
>> I have seen the dot on the Dock when an application is not running... but if
>> it is not shown in Activity Monitor it would be bizarre to see it in Top.
>
> I've never seen the dot on the Dock app except for the finder. The Unix ps
> command in the cli will always report what apps are running, what apps are
> idle, what apps are actually in a zombie state. Also shows whether the
> process is root, wheel, or user. A running app won't escape ps. That's why I
> say that demena is lying thru his teeth as all apps have process IDs assigned
> to them.
I have seen what he describes: a dot on the dock but the app is not showing
in Activity Monitor. Would be shocking to see it show up in top or ps.
Likely is a problem with whatever the dock uses to keep track of running
apps... I believe relaunching the dock solved it for me, but it is rare
enough and has not happened in long enough I am not sure.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
6/18/09 7:02 PM:
>>> I'll reply to your posts that I want to reply to, thank you. You are a MS
>>> shill and a troll, but your not as blatant about it as the zara-thing or the
>>> Muahman, so some people visiting here might actually believe your bullshit.
>>> Somebody has to call you on it, just to keep you honest.
>>>
>> If you want to call someone on BS, at least make sure it is BS. The shut
>> down issue he talks about is almost trivial to replicate:
>>
>> <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/timeout.mov>
>>
>> Why is this even a debate? Does anyone really deny OS X does this?
>>
>>
>
> As I've posted before... I can't get it to replicate. But then I have
> my memory maxed out too.
I have mine maxed to 4 GB. But running Parallels takes a lot of
resources... Adobe products, too.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Fa-groon
(in article <4-GdnZFJsLwMdafX...@giganews.com>):
I'm sorry. You have too many problems with your Macs for them to be real.
Maybe if you just had the one problem, people might be more inclined to
believe you. But as it is, it looks very much like you mine the
troubleshooting sites such as MacFixIt.com looking for problems that you can
report so that you can make the Mac look bad. The fact that NOBODY else has
anywhere near the types or number of problems that your report with their
Macs, merely reenforces this impression.
>
> The shutdown flaw I documented is indicative of a flaw in OS X or one
> of the apps running. Period.
Like I've said, I've had it happen (everybody has, I guess) but NOT with any
Apple apps and I've got the entire iLife suite, I have Final Cut Pro, I have
Logic Studio and I have Aperture. None of these, not Safari, nor Apple Mail,
nor TextEdit, etc. ever cause the shutdown sequence to stall.
GreyCloud
Sounds more like a threading problem. We'll most likely see more
threading problems in Snow Leopard,
but when you go out onto the bleeding edge one has to expect it. Apple
will provide patches tho.
And as another poster said, windows has even bigger and more severe
problems so be glad you own a Mac.
GreyCloud
But I've never ran into any of his posted situations. Not on OS X or
any other UNIX.
OS X first issues from launchd a SIGTERM to all processes, then a
SIGKILL to all processes.
I've yet to see any process not stop from a SIGKILL. That's why I think
he is just looking for
anything to diss Apple. But mention one negative thing about Windows,
and he is there
Johnny on the spot to defend it.
Steve de Mena
You have NO evidence to backup that last statement. I have a number
of screen shots, and now videos, plus no reason to "make up stuff" on
my side.
>> The shutdown flaw I documented is indicative of a flaw in OS X or one
>> of the apps running. Period.
>
> Like I've said, I've had it happen (everybody has, I guess) but NOT with any
> Apple apps and I've got the entire iLife suite, I have Final Cut Pro, I have
> Logic Studio and I have Aperture. None of these, not Safari, nor Apple Mail,
> nor TextEdit, etc. ever cause the shutdown sequence to stall.
So what? I did. And documented it. Period. (And for the
record, I don't think TextEdit was the issue, I think it was just
because it was the last app to start that it was shown as the Shutdown
blocker).
Steve
GreyCloud
That is the way it should be if the app receives a SIGTERM and is in the
process of shutting down
child processes, flushing buffers, saving data.
> Would be
> nice if the OS gave you a dialog letting you know shut down was taking a
> long time and gave you the option to cancel or not - with the default being
> to not... that way you could just walk away. Might even have it where
> opened files are saved in a folder on the desktop - that way you can restart
> even if you have unsaved data (at least from most programs).
>
But this scenario of doing a shutdown with apps running is totally not
right.
Close your apps first. Then shutdown.
> This whole issue is really not that big of a deal - it is not like it is
> that bad... just not ideal. Not sure why people are denying it and making
> such a fuss over it.
>
It wouldn't be a big deal, except this isn't the first nuance that
demena has complained about.
Most are nit picky items blown way out of proportion.
I'm certainly glad I had an iMac.
I'd hate myself if I bought a PC only to find out that M$ can't live up
to their claims.
GreyCloud
I'm running VMWare, but then I always shut off my apps before doing a
shutdown.
A sidenote... the old VMS VAX systems were never shutdown, and you
really didn't want to shut one of those
machines down for the weekend. If you did, you usually found a broken
VAX on monday and have to call in
the DEC service rep. I always put my iMac into sleep mode after logging
out.
Remember the OS X update process and then having to click on restart?
I've yet to see that process fail. But I'll bet demena will find
somewhere to make a post that this too fails. :D
GreyCloud
Steve doesn't know squat about unix. Bring up the terminal and do 'man
lauchd' and 'man shutdown'.
You'll find that during the shutdown process the first thing that is
sent is SIGTERM.
Then SIGKILL is issued. I'd like anyone to present a C program that
can't kill a process with SIGKILL.
This is why I say Steve is just making things up as he goes along to
Diss Apple anyway he can.
But say one negative thing about Windows and here comes demena to M$ rescue.
Snit
6/19/09 2:14 PM:
>>>> The reboot timeout is easy to replicate:
>>>>
>>>> <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/timeout.mov>
>>>>
>>>> The fact even something this simple is a debating point in CSMA is sad...
>>>> come on Mac users, do not lie and deny in order to make OS X sound better.
>>>> This is a common and easy to replicate situation.
>>> Point one... shut down the app. Who doesn't before a restart?
>>> More of a BSD policy. It isn't the policy of SYSV tho.
>>> No one is lying here, but demenas credibility is very shaky.
>>
>> I tend to take people at their word, except in extreme examples of people
>> who have proved they are not to *ever* be trusted - the situation he
>> described is a reasonable one to run into.
>>
>>
>
> But I've never ran into any of his posted situations. Not on OS X or
> any other UNIX.
Cannot speak to other situations, not without details anyway, but the
situation here I have seen often... and was able to easily replicate.
> OS X first issues from launchd a SIGTERM to all processes, then a SIGKILL to
> all processes. I've yet to see any process not stop from a SIGKILL. That's
> why I think he is just looking for anything to diss Apple. But mention one
> negative thing about Windows, and he is there Johnny on the spot to defend it.
I am not defending the idea he has not bias... just noting this issue is
real.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
6/19/09 2:12 PM:
Oh, do not get me wrong - I am very happy to be on a Mac. It is certainly
my preferred environment.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
6/19/09 2:18 PM:
...
>>> Mind you, I've had Safari open in one space, XCode opened in another
>>> space, and Netbeans open in another space.
>>> I did a restart... and the apps shutdown and then the system restarted.
>>> Netbeans and Xcode are not small apps.
>>
>> I often have Mail, Safari, Firefox, Chrome (recently), NetNewsWire, iCal,
>> CyberDuck, Dreamweaver, Photoshop, iTunes, TextWrangler, TextEdit, Preview,
>> Pages, Parallels, Entourage, and more open... I assume this is why I see it:
>> some of those programs take a long time to correctly shut down.
>
> That is the way it should be if the app receives a SIGTERM and is in the
> process of shutting down child processes, flushing buffers, saving data.
>
>> Would be nice if the OS gave you a dialog letting you know shut down was
>> taking a long time and gave you the option to cancel or not - with the
>> default being to not... that way you could just walk away. Might even have
>> it where opened files are saved in a folder on the desktop - that way you can
>> restart even if you have unsaved data (at least from most programs).
>
> But this scenario of doing a shutdown with apps running is totally not right.
> Close your apps first. Then shutdown.
But generally, if you do not have a lot of apps open, it works just fine.
If you were not supposed to, why not have a dialog that told you that.
The better solution, I think, is to either be able to set the time-out
period in the System Preferences or have a dialog that tells you what
programs are still waiting and lets the user decide what to do - with the
default to wait and shut down *without* cancelling.
>> This whole issue is really not that big of a deal - it is not like it is
>> that bad... just not ideal. Not sure why people are denying it and making
>> such a fuss over it.
>>
>
> It wouldn't be a big deal, except this isn't the first nuance that
> demena has complained about.
So you are not looking at this issue in an unbiased way - you are looking at
it based on who reported it.
> Most are nit picky items blown way out of proportion.
Not sure he has blown this one out of proportion. He has noted it and shown
it...
> I'm certainly glad I had an iMac.
Ditto here... and I am glad I waited to get the iMac I did, an original
aluminum.
> I'd hate myself if I bought a PC only to find out that M$ can't live up
> to their claims.
>
>
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Fa-groon
(in article <poudnYjRhcBrYqbX...@giganews.com>):
The "so what" is that nobody believes you. Period.
Fa-groon
(in article <uZ-dnXZ30fC1n6HX...@bresnan.com>):
Maybe we ought to start calling him Dementia!
Steve de Mena
I think I'll call you demented if you think i need to go to Terminal
and type a SIGTERM and SIGKILL commands.
By the way, I know those unix commands well. I want to use Apple's
Restart command, though. Call me crazy!
Steve
Fa-groon
(in article <0MWdnc-x1tE7s6HX...@giganews.com>):
I think we just did....
ZnU
Steve de Mena <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote:
> ZnU wrote:
>
> >> I smell photoshop in his screencast here. I've yet to see a UNIX system
> >> not restart or shutdown over a few
> >> user apps. Looks to me like it is all baloney.
>
> "I smell Photoshop" Oh brother. I told you, it's George Lucas' ILM!!
>
> > One should keep in mind that Steve apparently has 250,000 songs in
> > iTunes and blames Apple for the fact that it doesn't perform well with a
> > music library probably 100x the average size.
>
> So iTunes is supposed to lock up like that? LOL.
>
> How about my other video where TextEdit halted a Restart? Explain
> that away.
You are using software in pathological ways and then complaining when it
fails.
--
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
Fa-groon
(in article <znu-A5BC35.1...@Port80.Individual.NET>):
> In article <PcudnYhdhc7gQ6TX...@giganews.com>,
> Steve de Mena <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote:
>
>> ZnU wrote:
>>
>>>> I smell photoshop in his screencast here. I've yet to see a UNIX system
>>>> not restart or shutdown over a few
>>>> user apps. Looks to me like it is all baloney.
>>
>> "I smell Photoshop" Oh brother. I told you, it's George Lucas' ILM!!
>>
>>> One should keep in mind that Steve apparently has 250,000 songs in
>>> iTunes and blames Apple for the fact that it doesn't perform well with a
>>> music library probably 100x the average size.
>>
>> So iTunes is supposed to lock up like that? LOL.
>>
>> How about my other video where TextEdit halted a Restart? Explain
>> that away.
>
> You are using software in pathological ways and then complaining when it
> fails.
>
>
Actually, he's dredging the Mac problems web-sites for issues that he then
presents as his own in order to make it look as if Macs are very
problematical computers. A proposition that every REAL Mac users knows to be
bullshit.
Steve de Mena
> In article <PcudnYhdhc7gQ6TX...@giganews.com>,
> Steve de Mena <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote:
>
>> ZnU wrote:
>>
>>>> I smell photoshop in his screencast here. I've yet to see a UNIX system
>>>> not restart or shutdown over a few
>>>> user apps. Looks to me like it is all baloney.
>> "I smell Photoshop" Oh brother. I told you, it's George Lucas' ILM!!
>>
>>> One should keep in mind that Steve apparently has 250,000 songs in
>>> iTunes and blames Apple for the fact that it doesn't perform well with a
>>> music library probably 100x the average size.
>> So iTunes is supposed to lock up like that? LOL.
>>
>> How about my other video where TextEdit halted a Restart? Explain
>> that away.
>
> You are using software in pathological ways and then complaining when it
> fails.
I created a two-line text document in TextEdit. Pathological?
Steve
Steve de Mena
Sorry, a feeble attempt at discrediting me.
Steve
Fa-groon
(in article <dZednXLIG6qY0aDX...@giganews.com>):
No one needs to "attempt" to discredit you, Steve. You do an excellent job of
discrediting yourself.
Steve de Mena
This from someone who doesn't even use a real name. LOL.
Steve
ZnU
What exactly are you complaining about here? The fact that an unsaved
document will halt a restart?
Snit
6/20/09 8:49 PM:
> In article <dZednXPIG6pC1qDX...@giganews.com>,
> Steve de Mena <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote:
>
>> ZnU wrote:
>>> In article <PcudnYhdhc7gQ6TX...@giganews.com>,
>>> Steve de Mena <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ZnU wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I smell photoshop in his screencast here. I've yet to see a UNIX system
>>>>>> not restart or shutdown over a few
>>>>>> user apps. Looks to me like it is all baloney.
>>>> "I smell Photoshop" Oh brother. I told you, it's George Lucas' ILM!!
>>>>
>>>>> One should keep in mind that Steve apparently has 250,000 songs in
>>>>> iTunes and blames Apple for the fact that it doesn't perform well with a
>>>>> music library probably 100x the average size.
>>>> So iTunes is supposed to lock up like that? LOL.
>>>>
>>>> How about my other video where TextEdit halted a Restart? Explain
>>>> that away.
>>>
>>> You are using software in pathological ways and then complaining when it
>>> fails.
>>
>> I created a two-line text document in TextEdit. Pathological?
>
> What exactly are you complaining about here? The fact that an unsaved
> document will halt a restart?
It is not just unsaved documents... watch his video and mine:
<http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/timeout.mov>
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Fa-groon
(in article <daqdnXpzac3n_aDX...@giganews.com>):
My credentials are what I say, not who I am.
Steve de Mena
> In article <dZednXPIG6pC1qDX...@giganews.com>,
> Steve de Mena <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote:
>
>> ZnU wrote:
>>> In article <PcudnYhdhc7gQ6TX...@giganews.com>,
>>> Steve de Mena <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ZnU wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I smell photoshop in his screencast here. I've yet to see a UNIX system
>>>>>> not restart or shutdown over a few
>>>>>> user apps. Looks to me like it is all baloney.
>>>> "I smell Photoshop" Oh brother. I told you, it's George Lucas' ILM!!
>>>>
>>>>> One should keep in mind that Steve apparently has 250,000 songs in
>>>>> iTunes and blames Apple for the fact that it doesn't perform well with a
>>>>> music library probably 100x the average size.
>>>> So iTunes is supposed to lock up like that? LOL.
>>>>
>>>> How about my other video where TextEdit halted a Restart? Explain
>>>> that away.
>>> You are using software in pathological ways and then complaining when it
>>> fails.
>> I created a two-line text document in TextEdit. Pathological?
>
> What exactly are you complaining about here? The fact that an unsaved
> document will halt a restart?
Nope. Didn't have an unsaved document. I'm complaining about being
pathological in how I use software (in this case TextEdit) which
halted a Restart for no apparent reason.
Steve
Steve de Mena
Now you're really in trouble.
Steve
ZnU
You were obviously doing something atypical, but this is extremely
unusual behavior.
Steve de Mena
>>>>> You are using software in pathological ways and then complaining when it
>>>>> fails.
>>>> I created a two-line text document in TextEdit. Pathological?
>>> What exactly are you complaining about here? The fact that an unsaved
>>> document will halt a restart?
>> Nope. Didn't have an unsaved document. I'm complaining about being
>> pathological in how I use software (in this case TextEdit) which
>> halted a Restart for no apparent reason.
>
> You were obviously doing something atypical, but this is extremely
> unusual behavior.
Proof of I "was obviously doing something atypical"?
Maybe give me a scenario of how one could setup something like that?
I got one - buggy OS!
Steve
ZnU
Steve de Mena <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote:
I have *never* seen an application cancel shutdown randomly. The two
circumstances under which an application will prevent shutdown are: a)
you have an unsaved document and you don't respond to the prompt, or the
application won't quit because it's frozen and no longer responding to
events. If you're claiming TextEdit was responding normally to events
but canceled the shutdown anyway... there is something very, very
strange and unusual going on with your machine. Which seems to always be
the case, somehow.
Steve de Mena
I'm not claiming anything. It was just further proof that Restart
doesn't always work reliably. End of story.
Steve
Fa-groon
(in article <0LOdnVVZLanaOKPX...@giganews.com>):
Only for you, Steve. Only for you. For the rest of us, OSX is the best OS ON
EARTH at the present time. Windows is so far behind OSX in terms of
interface, reliability, safety, usability and just plain elegance that
Microsoft would have to scrap Windows entirely and start over just to catch
up with, much less exceed, OSX. And they still won't do any of those things
if they keep adding back the horrible Win3.1/Win95 GUI and the concept of the
registry, DOS conventions, and DLLs and all the myriad of other baggage that
Windows carries "forward" from iteration to the next.
Fa-groon
(in article <znu-BEC5A3.1...@Port80.Individual.NET>):
It's easy for "strange things to be going on with (his) machine" when he
fabricates this crap from whole cloth.
Fa-groon
(in article <aYednaMVhrVsM6PX...@giganews.com>):
But it DOES work reliably. END OF STORY.
Steve de Mena
None of that drivel explains my issue.
Steve
Steve de Mena
The video is real. It is sad you can't accept that.
Steve
Steve de Mena
Explain the video.
Waiting.....
Steve
Fa-groon
(in article <3bGdnXbNkYVnVqPX...@giganews.com>):
I can't. I haven't seen your video.
Fa-groon
(in article <3bGdnXTNkYU-VqPX...@giganews.com>):
That's nice. of course I wasn't trying to explain your "issue" , I don't
really care about your "issue", but I DO care about your mischaracterization
of OSX as a "buggy" OS. For, if OSX is "Buggy", then Windows must be
completely rotted-out by termites!
Steve de Mena
Steve de Mena
Snit
6/21/09 2:35 PM:
A third case is that an application is just taking a long time to shut down
- this happens if you have a lot of large apps running. I often have
Photoshop, Parallels, Dreamweaver, and some other pretty heavy duty apps
running and see this. Still, it happens after about 90 seconds... not the
time period he said (Wally corrected me on that - I missed it in my previous
posts).
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Sandman
Steve de Mena <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote:
> Sure glad to see they got the iPhone syncing straightened out in 3.0
> of the iPhone OS. Wouldn't want any duplicate address book entries......
>
> http://bit.ly/v5h5o
Ignorance is bliss. Don't sync your contacts through mobileme and
iTunes, einstein.
--
Sandman[.net]
Steve Carroll
> ZnU stated in post znu-BEC5A3.17351921062...@Port80.Individual.NET on
> 6/21/09 2:35 PM:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <0LOdnVVZLanaOKPXnZ2dnUVZ_jli4...@giganews.com>,
So... when you said it happens all the time to lots of users and it's
easy to replicate.... you were talking out of your ass... again?
ZnU
That looks like TextEdit freezing while attempting to quit. I have no
idea how you managed to get it to do that (it's a pretty simple app that
doesn't tend to misbehave), but it doesn't constitute any kind of bug in
the operating system's shutdown routine. If an app won't respond to a
request to quit, the OS can't just terminate it, because the OS can't
know whether or not doing so would destroy valuable user data. So it
tells the user what's happening and allows the user to make the call.
GreyCloud
> GreyCloud stated in post kZudnWsveqU7YqbX...@bresnan.com on
> 6/19/09 2:14 PM:
>
>>>>> The reboot timeout is easy to replicate:
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/timeout.mov>
>>>>>
>>>>> The fact even something this simple is a debating point in CSMA is sad...
>>>>> come on Mac users, do not lie and deny in order to make OS X sound better.
>>>>> This is a common and easy to replicate situation.
>>>> Point one... shut down the app. Who doesn't before a restart?
>>>> More of a BSD policy. It isn't the policy of SYSV tho.
>>>> No one is lying here, but demenas credibility is very shaky.
>>> I tend to take people at their word, except in extreme examples of people
>>> who have proved they are not to *ever* be trusted - the situation he
>>> described is a reasonable one to run into.
>>>
>>>
>> But I've never ran into any of his posted situations. Not on OS X or
>> any other UNIX.
>
> Cannot speak to other situations, not without details anyway, but the
> situation here I have seen often... and was able to easily replicate.
>
>> OS X first issues from launchd a SIGTERM to all processes, then a SIGKILL to
>> all processes. I've yet to see any process not stop from a SIGKILL. That's
>> why I think he is just looking for anything to diss Apple. But mention one
>> negative thing about Windows, and he is there Johnny on the spot to defend it.
>
> I am not defending the idea he has not bias... just noting this issue is
> real.
>
I suspect something else that could probably be a problem, but I've
never seen any process
escape a SIGKILL command. The process table may have gotten corrupted,
but that would
have to be in memory. Faulty ram perhaps?
--
"It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument."
William G. McAdoo.
American Government official (1863-1941).
GreyCloud
> GreyCloud stated in post LuydndU8pYc8naHX...@bresnan.com on
> 6/19/09 2:18 PM:
>
> ...
>>>> Mind you, I've had Safari open in one space, XCode opened in another
>>>> space, and Netbeans open in another space.
>>>> I did a restart... and the apps shutdown and then the system restarted.
>>>> Netbeans and Xcode are not small apps.
>>> I often have Mail, Safari, Firefox, Chrome (recently), NetNewsWire, iCal,
>>> CyberDuck, Dreamweaver, Photoshop, iTunes, TextWrangler, TextEdit, Preview,
>>> Pages, Parallels, Entourage, and more open... I assume this is why I see it:
>>> some of those programs take a long time to correctly shut down.
>> That is the way it should be if the app receives a SIGTERM and is in the
>> process of shutting down child processes, flushing buffers, saving data.
>>
>>> Would be nice if the OS gave you a dialog letting you know shut down was
>>> taking a long time and gave you the option to cancel or not - with the
>>> default being to not... that way you could just walk away. Might even have
>>> it where opened files are saved in a folder on the desktop - that way you can
>>> restart even if you have unsaved data (at least from most programs).
>> But this scenario of doing a shutdown with apps running is totally not right.
>> Close your apps first. Then shutdown.
>
> But generally, if you do not have a lot of apps open, it works just fine.
> If you were not supposed to, why not have a dialog that told you that.
>
> The better solution, I think, is to either be able to set the time-out
> period in the System Preferences or have a dialog that tells you what
> programs are still waiting and lets the user decide what to do - with the
> default to wait and shut down *without* cancelling.
>
>>> This whole issue is really not that big of a deal - it is not like it is
>>> that bad... just not ideal. Not sure why people are denying it and making
>>> such a fuss over it.
>>>
>> It wouldn't be a big deal, except this isn't the first nuance that
>> demena has complained about.
>
> So you are not looking at this issue in an unbiased way - you are looking at
> it based on who reported it.
>
If it were only one point, I would more likely believe his problem. But
a couple of years
of endless problems makes him very suspect.
>> Most are nit picky items blown way out of proportion.
>
> Not sure he has blown this one out of proportion. He has noted it and shown
> it...
>
He claims he has shown it, but still no proof. I'm sure that further
investigation into it would
produce the truth of this one problem.
>> I'm certainly glad I had an iMac.
>
> Ditto here... and I am glad I waited to get the iMac I did, an original
> aluminum.
>
>> I'd hate myself if I bought a PC only to find out that M$ can't live up
>> to their claims.
GreyCloud
> On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:25:21 -0700, GreyCloud wrote
> (in article <uZ-dnXZ30fC1n6HX...@bresnan.com>):
>
>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>> On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:23:29 -0700, Steve de Mena wrote
>>> (in article <4-GdnZFJsLwMdafX...@giganews.com>):
>>>
>>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:10:51 -0700, Steve de Mena wrote
>>>>> (in article <qMydnUv8xMX2JqfX...@giganews.com>):
>>>>>
>>>>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 23:28:12 -0700, Steve de Mena wrote
>>>>>>> (in article <PcudnYhdhc7gQ6TX...@giganews.com>):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ZnU wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I smell photoshop in his screencast here. I've yet to see a UNIX
>>>>>>>>>> system
>>>>>>>>>> not restart or shutdown over a few
>>>>>>>>>> user apps. Looks to me like it is all baloney.
>>>>>>>> "I smell Photoshop" Oh brother. I told you, it's George Lucas' ILM!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One should keep in mind that Steve apparently has 250,000 songs in
>>>>>>>>> iTunes and blames Apple for the fact that it doesn't perform well
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> music library probably 100x the average size.
>>>>>>>> So iTunes is supposed to lock up like that? LOL.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How about my other video where TextEdit halted a Restart? Explain
>>>>>>>> that away.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My Macs don't do that, I tried. Even with unsaved files on the screen,
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> couldn't get TextEdit to halt the shutdown procedure. It asks whether
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> I want to save the current file, but whether I do or I don't choose to
>>>>>>> save
>>>>>>> the file, the shutdown continues. I think you must have a broken Mac
>>>>>>> (or
>>>>>>> you're making things up - three guesses as to which *I* think it is).
>>>>>> Yeah, and my broken mac can spread those systems to a different Mac of
>>>>>> mine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you don't believe the video and think I somehow concocted this up
>>>>>> (because if it doesn't happen to you it's not to be believed) than
>>>>>> just killfile me or don't bother replying to my posts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>> I'll reply to your posts that I want to reply to, thank you. You are a MS
>>>>> shill and a troll, but your not as blatant about it as the zara-thing or
>>>>> the
>>>>> Muahman, so some people visiting here might actually believe your
>>>>> bullshit.
>>>>> Somebody has to call you on it, just to keep you honest.
>>>> There is nothing to "call" me on. What I report about is fact. You
>>>> obviously can't find legitimate facts to refute most of what I say, so
>>>> you just resort to putting the generic "troll" label on me.
>>> I'm sorry. You have too many problems with your Macs for them to be real.
>>> Maybe if you just had the one problem, people might be more inclined to
>>> believe you. But as it is, it looks very much like you mine the
>>> troubleshooting sites such as MacFixIt.com looking for problems that you
>>> can
>>> report so that you can make the Mac look bad. The fact that NOBODY else has
>>> anywhere near the types or number of problems that your report with their
>>> Macs, merely reenforces this impression.
>>>> The shutdown flaw I documented is indicative of a flaw in OS X or one
>>>> of the apps running. Period.
>>> Like I've said, I've had it happen (everybody has, I guess) but NOT with
>>> any
>>> Apple apps and I've got the entire iLife suite, I have Final Cut Pro, I
>>> have
>>> Logic Studio and I have Aperture. None of these, not Safari, nor Apple
>>> Mail,
>>> nor TextEdit, etc. ever cause the shutdown sequence to stall.
>>>
>> Steve doesn't know squat about unix. Bring up the terminal and do 'man
>> lauchd' and 'man shutdown'.
>> You'll find that during the shutdown process the first thing that is
>> sent is SIGTERM.
>> Then SIGKILL is issued. I'd like anyone to present a C program that
>> can't kill a process with SIGKILL.
>> This is why I say Steve is just making things up as he goes along to
>> Diss Apple anyway he can.
>> But say one negative thing about Windows and here comes demena to M$ rescue.
>>> D
>>
>>
>
> Maybe we ought to start calling him Dementia!
>
Already have. :D
GreyCloud
> type a SIGTERM and SIGKILL commands.
>
Fool! The lauchd does this for you. RTFM.
> By the way, I know those unix commands well. I want to use Apple's
> Restart command, though. Call me crazy!
They work, you don't.
GreyCloud
> Fa-groon wrote:
>> (in article <znu-A5BC35.1...@Port80.Individual.NET>):
>>
>>>>
>>>>>> I smell photoshop in his screencast here. I've yet to see a UNIX
>>>>>> system not restart or shutdown over a few
>>>>>> user apps. Looks to me like it is all baloney.
>>>> "I smell Photoshop" Oh brother. I told you, it's George Lucas' ILM!!
>>>>
>>>>> One should keep in mind that Steve apparently has 250,000 songs in
>>>>> iTunes and blames Apple for the fact that it doesn't perform well
>>>>> with a music library probably 100x the average size.
>>>> So iTunes is supposed to lock up like that? LOL.
>>>>
>>>> How about my other video where TextEdit halted a Restart? Explain
>>>> that away.
>>> it fails.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> then presents as his own in order to make it look as if Macs are very
>> problematical computers. A proposition that every REAL Mac users knows
>> to be bullshit.
>
> Sorry, a feeble attempt at discrediting me.
>
You are already discredited, sherlock.
GreyCloud
> Fa-groon wrote:
>> (in article <dZednXLIG6qY0aDX...@giganews.com>):
>>
>>> Fa-groon wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 09:36:44 -0700, ZnU wrote
>>>> (in article <znu-A5BC35.1...@Port80.Individual.NET>):
>>>>
>>>>> In article <PcudnYhdhc7gQ6TX...@giganews.com>,
>>>>> Steve de Mena <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ZnU wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I smell photoshop in his screencast here. I've yet to see a
>>>>>>>> UNIX system not restart or shutdown over a few
>>>>>>>> user apps. Looks to me like it is all baloney.
>>>>>> "I smell Photoshop" Oh brother. I told you, it's George Lucas' ILM!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One should keep in mind that Steve apparently has 250,000 songs
>>>>>>> in iTunes and blames Apple for the fact that it doesn't perform
>>>>>>> well with a music library probably 100x the average size.
>>>>>> So iTunes is supposed to lock up like that? LOL.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How about my other video where TextEdit halted a Restart? Explain
>>>>>> that away.
>>>>> You are using software in pathological ways and then complaining
>>>>> when it fails.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Actually, he's dredging the Mac problems web-sites for issues that
>>>> he then presents as his own in order to make it look as if Macs are
>>>> very problematical computers. A proposition that every REAL Mac
>>>> users knows to be bullshit.
>>> Sorry, a feeble attempt at discrediting me.
>>>
>>
>> No one needs to "attempt" to discredit you, Steve. You do an excellent
>> job of discrediting yourself.
>
> This from someone who doesn't even use a real name. LOL.
>
No one knows yours either. Maybe your real name is Elmer Fud.
GreyCloud
I could never replicate his problem. Doing 'man launchd' and 'man
shutdown' explains the process.
I've yet to see any process escape the SIGKILL signal let alone the
SIGTERM signal.
GreyCloud
You made up the video.
GreyCloud
It tells me that his ram is faulty. The process id table is kept in ram.
GreyCloud
It is even more sad to see a wintroll go to such extremes too.
GreyCloud
I could not duplicate demenas problem. I've yet to see any process
ignore a SIGTERM or
SIGKILL signal.
GreyCloud
Maybe it is because you are too stupid?
Snit
6/22/09 5:01 PM:
The one place where his story is fishy, to me, is the time frame. Wally
pointed out where I missed that.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]