Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand... but, hey, it worked.
OK, some initial thoughts on my rather limited experience with a modern Linux: Ubuntu/PowerPC_hoary
1) Wow... they sure manage to shove a lot on that one CD. Really very impressive - the whole OS, Firefox, OpenOffice, the Gimp, GAIM, Evolution, etc. Lots of relatively high quality apps... while I have used OpenOffice and the Gimp and find them lacking in relation to MS Office and Photoshop, still cool that they can fit them on one CD and there is no doubt that the applications are good - very good even... just not top of their class.
Some of my later complaints may be from them having to make some concessions to get everything on one CD... and just from being a LiveCD
2) Had some continued trouble boot - I have dual monitors and Hoary does not seem to like that. Had to boot with the option "linux video=ofonly", which is kindly suggested right on the initial screen. Still, for a computer novice this would have likely been far more stressful than it was for me. The first thing you see is a bunch of text telling you how to deal with possible problems... I can see why, but not sure novice computer folks would be as happy with that as they could be.
3) Once it did start its boot process it went into a bunch of "DOS" looking text screens with a bright red background. Not sure that was the best choice of color...
4) When it gets past that it shows little icons of what it is loading... sort of like OS 9. :)
5) The mouse was smooth - very smooth. No complaints there! Did not play with the options, but did not feel the need since it was set up by default to be just right. Hmmm, did not test opening tabs in Firefox with my middle mouse button. Presumably that worked, too, but I will test it later.
6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time, though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that is odd!
7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and they just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
8) Windows are very Windows like... min, max, close... even the menu on the left... not impressive to see them copy Windows like that.
9) To make changes I had to use my root password... but I had not set one up! Did not see in my quick look in help or docs what the default is. Guessed it on my third try (yeah, I am a freakin' genius, it is "ubuntu").
10) The help system does not have a search! What the heck! That is silly...
11) It did not recognize, at least not that I could tell, that I had inserted my thumb drive. Disappointing.
12) There are dual menus... they have a menu on the top sort of like the Mac, but each window is like Windows. You can move and even remove the "panels", which is what they call the Mac like menu area... and you can add more of them if you like.
13) Played with applications... they took a while to launch, but, hey, they are all on the CD. Hard to complain. Actually, considering that, they did just fine. Have used OpenOffice before and use Firefox often. They seem just as good in Linux as they do elsewhere.
14) Oh, man... forgot to play with save and print dialogs. Oh well... next time.
15) Decided I had played enough and wanted to reboot. But how. Looked for a bit and could not find the option. How odd. Decided to at least log out.. and lo and behold the option came up... sort of like how Windows combines all the reboot / shut down / log out type options. Not a huge deal once you get used to it, but I do not see the logic.
Just a few thoughts... I am sure I am leaving things out. Will play with it more later.
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In article <BE4D3EAF.6F47%S...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID>, Snit wrote: > 15) Decided I had played enough and wanted to reboot. But how. Looked for
Remember, when you are playing with a live CD distribution, and all your writable disks are just RAM disks that are going to be lost anyway when you reboot...just hit the reset switch. No need to worry about an unclean shutdown. :-)
"Tim Smith" <reply_in_gr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote in post ZbTVd.609$oO4....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net on 3/3/05 11:26 PM:
> In article <BE4D3EAF.6F47%S...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID>, Snit wrote: >> 15) Decided I had played enough and wanted to reboot. But how. Looked for
> Remember, when you are playing with a live CD distribution, and all your > writable disks are just RAM disks that are going to be lost anyway when you > reboot...just hit the reset switch. No need to worry about an unclean > shutdown. :-)
Yes, and I considered that... but wanted to see if I could find the "right" way to do it.
I did.
Do I get a gold star? :)
-- Look, this is silly. It's not an argument, it's an armor plated walrus with walnut paneling and an all leather interior.
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Snit <S...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote: > Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party > burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand... > but, hey, it worked.
So the root problem was Apple's difficulty in handling the .iso burning? :)
> OK, some initial thoughts on my rather limited experience with a modern > Linux: Ubuntu/PowerPC_hoary
> 1) Wow... they sure manage to shove a lot on that one CD. Really very > impressive - the whole OS, Firefox, OpenOffice, the Gimp, GAIM, Evolution, > etc. Lots of relatively high quality apps... while I have used OpenOffice > and the Gimp and find them lacking in relation to MS Office and Photoshop, > still cool that they can fit them on one CD and there is no doubt that the > applications are good - very good even... just not top of their class.
> Some of my later complaints may be from them having to make some concessions > to get everything on one CD... and just from being a LiveCD
One thing I found when I was using Knoppix at a clients, for an extensive time, ( a couple of weeks) it got *faster* as it cached stuff, the machines had 512M of ram, and Knoppix really moves with that much ram.
After a while, Knoppix, was faster, than running XP from the harddrive :) something I found no end of amusement in.
> 2) Had some continued trouble boot - I have dual monitors and Hoary does not > seem to like that. Had to boot with the option "linux video=ofonly", which > is kindly suggested right on the initial screen. Still, for a computer > novice this would have likely been far more stressful than it was for me. > The first thing you see is a bunch of text telling you how to deal with > possible problems... I can see why, but not sure novice computer folks would > be as happy with that as they could be.
Can't recall for sure, but I *think* that Warty (the released version) hides all that, with a note at the bottom of the screen to press esc if you want all the details during the boot. Hoary is a prerelease, and I suspect that most of the folks using it, will be watching the boot, for problems. :)
> 3) Once it did start its boot process it went into a bunch of "DOS" looking > text screens with a bright red background. Not sure that was the best > choice of color...
> 4) When it gets past that it shows little icons of what it is loading... > sort of like OS 9. :)
> 5) The mouse was smooth - very smooth. No complaints there! Did not play > with the options, but did not feel the need since it was set up by default > to be just right. Hmmm, did not test opening tabs in Firefox with my middle > mouse button. Presumably that worked, too, but I will test it later.
It's a configurable option in FF IIRC. Don't know if it's default on in Hoary.
> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to > get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time,
if you dbl click on the calendar that pops up when you click on the clock display, you get Evolution's calendar window, with the day you clicked on. Nice integration :)
> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the > control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that is > odd!
Timezones, the LiveCD will grab the time from the hw clock, and (IIRC) update it's own time, from the net if pos, but you have to select your time zone for the clock displayed on the GNOME menubar to be correct. The LiveCD has no way to tell where you are.
> 7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and > the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of > the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and they > just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
There are, I (for example) use an "Aqua" like skin, the name of which, escapes me at the moment. I don't care for Ubuntu's default skin. But changing it is simple, System->Preferences->Theme and select one you like. Don't know what the LiveCD comes with for themes.
> 8) Windows are very Windows like... min, max, close... even the menu on the > left... not impressive to see them copy Windows like that.
matter of preferance I suppose. Of course, you can always us a different windowmanager, with different button configs, if you chose. But I prefer it this way personally.
> 9) To make changes I had to use my root password... but I had not set one > up! Did not see in my quick look in help or docs what the default is. > Guessed it on my third try (yeah, I am a freakin' genius, it is "ubuntu").
No, you use the password you log in with, Ubuntu uses sudo for administration, there is no root password set by default, root can't actually log in, on the default config. You'd have to sudo a shell or the like to become root.
> 10) The help system does not have a search! What the heck! That is > silly...
yeah, I find GNOME's help system to be little help :) It's rather resource hungry, and doesn't carry much useful info. Although it does bring in the man pages, and that's nice.
> 11) It did not recognize, at least not that I could tell, that I had > inserted my thumb drive. Disappointing.
Works fine here, might be a PPC issue, don't know. But if you were expecting an icon to pop up, that may be turned off. Go to System->Preferences->Removeable drives and media, the options are there.
> 12) There are dual menus... they have a menu on the top sort of like the > Mac, but each window is like Windows. You can move and even remove the > "panels", which is what they call the Mac like menu area... and you can add > more of them if you like.
Yes, including adding things like a dictionary lookup, a file lookup tool, a small command line util, address book search, etc. Plus any app on the machine. Also, you can add a connect to server applet, which will allow you to connect via ftp, sftp, smb, nfs, etc, treats them all as part of the filesystem, so you can easily drag and drop files from a remote ftp server, to an smb share on another machine. Etc.
> 13) Played with applications... they took a while to launch, but, hey, they > are all on the CD. Hard to complain. Actually, considering that, they did > just fine. Have used OpenOffice before and use Firefox often. They seem > just as good in Linux as they do elsewhere.
and there are a whole heck of a lot of them.
> 14) Oh, man... forgot to play with save and print dialogs. Oh well... next > time.
> 15) Decided I had played enough and wanted to reboot. But how. Looked for > a bit and could not find the option. How odd. Decided to at least log > out.. and lo and behold the option came up... sort of like how Windows > combines all the reboot / shut down / log out type options. Not a huge deal > once you get used to it, but I do not see the logic.
like so many other things, it's configurable. System->Administration->Login screen setup.
> Just a few thoughts... I am sure I am leaving things out. Will play with it > more later.
-- Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock "We live in the interface between radioactive molten rock and hard vacuum and we worry about safety." -- A friend of Steve Vanevender
> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third > party burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not > understand... but, hey, it worked.
OK - and I read your comments.
Now, before we go any further, how about a like-for-like comparison?
You have now downloaded, burned and run a Linux system from a CD, without changing anything on your computer - what we call a "Live CD".
I would like to see what the Mac OS looks like on my PC. Could you point me to the download site so that I can try it?:-)
Snit poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party > burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand... > but, hey, it worked.
It is nice to see someone try Linux, even if they say it ain't perfect <grin>.
> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to > get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time, > though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the > control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that is > odd!
You can also use "date" and "cal" from the command line. The latter can be very useful for prognostication <grin>.
> 7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and > the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of > the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and they > just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
You can change the whole desktop: Gnome vs. KDE. You can change window managers: IceWM, XFce, fluxbox, WindowMaker, and lots more. You can change the window decorations. You can change the user interface coloring and appearance. There are quite a few user-interface rendering engines to choose from. For example, the one I'm using now adds depth, marbling, and reflections to the buttons and toolbars.
> 8) Windows are very Windows like... min, max, close... even the menu on the > left... not impressive to see them copy Windows like that.
There are a couple of things that Windows doesn't have:
1. A good virtual desktop system 2. Window shading, where you minimize the window in place.
> 10) The help system does not have a search! What the heck! That is > silly...
There are many help systems. The two I use most are on the command line:
man info
> 11) It did not recognize, at least not that I could tell, that I had > inserted my thumb drive. Disappointing.
Automounting is available. Some poeple (such as myself), don't like it, and don't like devoting clock cycles to it.
> 15) Decided I had played enough and wanted to reboot. But how. Looked for > a bit and could not find the option. How odd. Decided to at least log > out.. and lo and behold the option came up... sort of like how Windows > combines all the reboot / shut down / log out type options. Not a huge deal > once you get used to it, but I do not see the logic.
It may depend on the window manager you are using.
You can also run the "shutdown" command as root from a command window.
> Just a few thoughts... I am sure I am leaving things out. Will play with it > more later.
Keep playing. All computer systems, even Mac, I'm sure, have a plethora of hidden features and gotchas that will keep you happy exploring your system(s) for months and years.
I still keep running into nifty apps and features.
-- When was the last time you thought about Microsoft, except in frustration or anger? -- Michael S. Malone, Silicon Insider
"Linønut" <lin?...@bone.com> wrote in post G7KdndvePNUPyLXfRVn...@comcast.com on 3/4/05 5:33 AM:
> Snit poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party >> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand... >> but, hey, it worked.
> It is nice to see someone try Linux, even if they say it ain't perfect > <grin>.
Seems to fit my earlier experiences and my thoughts on it - Linux can be great for folks who like to tinker or who have it set up by someone who knows their needs. It takes more tinkering and decision making that either OS X or XP, but that does allow for greater customization. As people do tinker a bit, on purpose or even on accident, they may not be able to undo with they did - this may discourage, for some, the desire to explore.
I, on the other hand, am a tinkerer, so I will enjoy exploring. At the same time I do not expect to switch from OS X to Linux - I am looking at it to be able to know which students might benefit from it and to use it as a non-primary machine.
>> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to >> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time, >> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the >> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that is >> odd!
> You can also use "date" and "cal" from the command line. The latter can be > very useful for prognostication <grin>.
Well, I know you can use the command line tools - and it likely has what OS X has and more. I am more interested in the GUI tools, though. Nothing against the command line, and I am happy it is there for when I want or need it, but for the population I am looking at the OS's for it is not really a big selling point.
>> 7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and >> the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of >> the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and they >> just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
> You can change the whole desktop: Gnome vs. KDE. You can change window > managers: IceWM, XFce, fluxbox, WindowMaker, and lots more. You can change > the window decorations. You can change the user interface coloring and > appearance. There are quite a few user-interface rendering engines to > choose from. For example, the one I'm using now adds depth, marbling, and > reflections to the buttons and toolbars.
I am sure that once I actually have it installed and am not just playing with a LiveCD I will be able to play with that more. For now the hardware I want to put it on is being used for mission important work, so I am not going to fiddle with it too much.
>> 8) Windows are very Windows like... min, max, close... even the menu on the >> left... not impressive to see them copy Windows like that.
> There are a couple of things that Windows doesn't have:
> 1. A good virtual desktop system
I know some love this feature - never has done much for me.
> 2. Window shading, where you minimize the window in place.
Yup... Apple "borrowed" that from a shareware package in Classic OS... and you can get it for OS X.
>> 10) The help system does not have a search! What the heck! That is >> silly...
> There are many help systems. The two I use most are on the command line:
> man > info
Yeah, but the GUI help was all but useless. I was quite disappointed with it - though, again, perhaps there is a more complete help with other distros. The one I was using was a pre-release... so I can understand the help being weak. What I did not expect was the GUI help *system* to be so weak.
>> 11) It did not recognize, at least not that I could tell, that I had >> inserted my thumb drive. Disappointing.
> Automounting is available. Some poeple (such as myself), don't like it, and > don't like devoting clock cycles to it.
Would seem that the default should be to have it on...
>> 15) Decided I had played enough and wanted to reboot. But how. Looked for >> a bit and could not find the option. How odd. Decided to at least log >> out.. and lo and behold the option came up... sort of like how Windows >> combines all the reboot / shut down / log out type options. Not a huge deal >> once you get used to it, but I do not see the logic.
> It may depend on the window manager you are using.
> You can also run the "shutdown" command as root from a command window.
Yup... but again, CLUI vs. GUI...
>> Just a few thoughts... I am sure I am leaving things out. Will play with it >> more later.
> Keep playing. All computer systems, even Mac, I'm sure, have a plethora of > hidden features and gotchas that will keep you happy exploring your > system(s) for months and years.
Certainly. I do not pretend that an hour of actual up time with a LiveCD makes me an expert in modern Linux systems. :)
> I still keep running into nifty apps and features.
-- "If you have integrity, nothing else matters." - Alan Simpson
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>> There are many help systems. The two I use most are on the command >> line:
>>man >>info
> Yeah, but the GUI help was all but useless. I was quite > disappointed with it - though, again, perhaps there is a more > complete help with other distros.
Put him out of his misery - tell him how to access man from Konq?:-)
"Jim Richardson" <warl...@eskimo.com> wrote in post svllf2-541....@grendel.myth on 3/4/05 2:22 AM:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1
> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:22:39 -0700, > Snit <S...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote: >> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party >> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand... >> but, hey, it worked.
> So the root problem was Apple's difficulty in handling the .iso burning? :)
>> OK, some initial thoughts on my rather limited experience with a modern >> Linux: Ubuntu/PowerPC_hoary
>> 1) Wow... they sure manage to shove a lot on that one CD. Really very >> impressive - the whole OS, Firefox, OpenOffice, the Gimp, GAIM, Evolution, >> etc. Lots of relatively high quality apps... while I have used OpenOffice >> and the Gimp and find them lacking in relation to MS Office and Photoshop, >> still cool that they can fit them on one CD and there is no doubt that the >> applications are good - very good even... just not top of their class.
>> Some of my later complaints may be from them having to make some concessions >> to get everything on one CD... and just from being a LiveCD
> One thing I found when I was using Knoppix at a clients, for an > extensive time, ( a couple of weeks) it got *faster* as it cached stuff, > the machines had 512M of ram, and Knoppix really moves with that much > ram.
> After a while, Knoppix, was faster, than running XP from the harddrive > :) something I found no end of amusement in.
You worked with a LiveCD for a couple of weeks?
>> 2) Had some continued trouble boot - I have dual monitors and Hoary does not >> seem to like that. Had to boot with the option "linux video=ofonly", which >> is kindly suggested right on the initial screen. Still, for a computer >> novice this would have likely been far more stressful than it was for me. >> The first thing you see is a bunch of text telling you how to deal with >> possible problems... I can see why, but not sure novice computer folks would >> be as happy with that as they could be.
> Can't recall for sure, but I *think* that Warty (the released version) > hides all that, with a note at the bottom of the screen to press esc if > you want all the details during the boot. Hoary is a prerelease, and I > suspect that most of the folks using it, will be watching the boot, for > problems. :)
Makes sense, and I should have thought about that. Thanks.
>> 3) Once it did start its boot process it went into a bunch of "DOS" looking >> text screens with a bright red background. Not sure that was the best >> choice of color...
>> 4) When it gets past that it shows little icons of what it is loading... >> sort of like OS 9. :)
>> 5) The mouse was smooth - very smooth. No complaints there! Did not play >> with the options, but did not feel the need since it was set up by default >> to be just right. Hmmm, did not test opening tabs in Firefox with my middle >> mouse button. Presumably that worked, too, but I will test it later.
> It's a configurable option in FF IIRC. Don't know if it's default on in > Hoary.
As long as it is easy to set... not a big deal. Firefox on the Mac does *not* have that... one of the reasons I do not use it. On Windows Firefox is about all I do use any more.
>> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to >> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time,
> if you dbl click on the calendar that pops up when you click on the > clock display, you get Evolution's calendar window, with the day you > clicked on. Nice integration :)
I had shareware that did that with iCal. Still, good to see it come with the OS... quite cool.
>> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the >> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that is >> odd!
> Timezones, the LiveCD will grab the time from the hw clock, and (IIRC) > update it's own time, from the net if pos, but you have to select your > time zone for the clock displayed on the GNOME menubar to be correct. > The LiveCD has no way to tell where you are.
Even after I selected the timezone the two times were different. Pre-release oddity?
>> 7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and >> the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of >> the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and they >> just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
> There are, I (for example) use an "Aqua" like skin, the name of which, > escapes me at the moment. I don't care for Ubuntu's default skin. But > changing it is simple, System->Preferences->Theme and select one you > like. Don't know what the LiveCD comes with for themes.
Might play with that next time I boot with it. And, of course, at some point I hope to actually have a hard drive installed Linux to play with.
>> 8) Windows are very Windows like... min, max, close... even the menu on the >> left... not impressive to see them copy Windows like that.
> matter of preferance I suppose. Of course, you can always us a different > windowmanager, with different button configs, if you chose. But I prefer > it this way personally.
I did find that I could drag the menu from a maximized window and it would restore to a regular window. Not sure the value of it, but at least it was different than Windows. :)
The interface seemed like they borrowed some from Windows, some from Mac, and then tried to through on all sorts of goodies that may or may not be helpful.
>> 9) To make changes I had to use my root password... but I had not set one >> up! Did not see in my quick look in help or docs what the default is. >> Guessed it on my third try (yeah, I am a freakin' genius, it is "ubuntu
> No, you use the password you log in with, Ubuntu uses sudo for > administration, there is no root password set by default, root can't > actually log in, on the default config. You'd have to sudo a shell or > the like to become root.
When I tried to make changes it demanded I enter the root password. That is all I can really tell you on the subject.
>> 10) The help system does not have a search! What the heck! That is >> silly...
> yeah, I find GNOME's help system to be little help :) It's rather > resource hungry, and doesn't carry much useful info. Although it does > bring in the man pages, and that's nice.
If it merely did not have much info I could accept that, esp. on a pre-release. Help tends to be done late in the game. But to not even let you search help... that is just silly.
>> 11) It did not recognize, at least not that I could tell, that I had >> inserted my thumb drive. Disappointing.
> Works fine here, might be a PPC issue, don't know. But if you were > expecting an icon to pop up, that may be turned off. Go to > System->Preferences->Removeable drives and media, the options are there.
Thanks, will check it out later.
>> 12) There are dual menus... they have a menu on the top sort of like the >> Mac, but each window is like Windows. You can move and even remove the >> "panels", which is what they call the Mac like menu area... and you can add >> more of them if you like.
> Yes, including adding things like a dictionary lookup, a file lookup > tool, a small command line util, address book search, etc. Plus any app > on the machine. Also, you can add a connect to server applet, which will > allow you to connect via ftp, sftp, smb, nfs, etc, treats them all as > part of the filesystem, so you can easily drag and drop files from a > remote ftp server, to an smb share on another machine. Etc.
Have not played with OS X's Dashboard yet, but that seems to give access in a more organized way than just having little icons all over. I do like *some* icons available - such as weather, e-mail, etc... and it was good to see those were either on by default or easy to find with Linux. No need to download or install... they were already there. As I said, I was very impressed with how much came on one CD.
>> 13) Played with applications... they took a while to launch, but, hey, they >> are all on the CD. Hard to complain. Actually, considering that, they did >> just fine. Have used OpenOffice before and use Firefox often. They seem >> just as good in Linux as they do elsewhere.
> and there are a whole heck of a lot of them.
On all three OS's - Mac, Windows, and Linux...
>> 14) Oh, man... forgot to play with save and print dialogs. Oh well... next >> time.
>> 15) Decided I had played enough and wanted to reboot. But how. Looked for >> a bit and could not find the option. How odd. Decided to at least log >> out.. and lo and behold the option came up... sort of like how Windows >> combines all the reboot / shut down / log out type options. Not a huge deal >> once you get used to it, but I do not see the logic.
> like so many other things, it's configurable. > System->Administration->Login screen setup.
Will look into it.
>> Just a few thoughts... I am sure I am leaving things out. Will play with it >> more later.
> LiveCDs rock.
No argument here. Even with the little gotchas that I ran into, overall I would say that the one modern Linux I tried was impressive. Would need to use it for a while to really form any solid opinions.
-- "If you have integrity, nothing else matters." - Alan Simpson
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>>Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third >>party burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not >>understand... but, hey, it worked.
> OK - and I read your comments.
> Now, before we go any further, how about a like-for-like comparison?
> You have now downloaded, burned and run a Linux system from a CD, > without changing anything on your computer - what we call a "Live > CD".
> I would like to see what the Mac OS looks like on my PC. > Could you point me to the download site so that I can try it?:-)
Linønut <linøn...@bone.com> wrote: > Snit poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party >> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand... >> but, hey, it worked.
> It is nice to see someone try Linux, even if they say it ain't perfect ><grin>.
more like, it's nice to see someone trying it without slagging it because it *isn't* perfect. I for one, don't expect perfection, simply that it be better than the last time, and better than the alternatives.
>> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to >> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time, >> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the >> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that is >> odd!
> You can also use "date" and "cal" from the command line. The latter can be > very useful for prognostication <grin>.
>> 7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and >> the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of >> the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and they >> just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
> You can change the whole desktop: Gnome vs. KDE. You can change window > managers: IceWM, XFce, fluxbox, WindowMaker, and lots more. You can change > the window decorations. You can change the user interface coloring and > appearance. There are quite a few user-interface rendering engines to > choose from. For example, the one I'm using now adds depth, marbling, and > reflections to the buttons and toolbars.
Well, changing that stuff on the LiveCD is sometimes limited, due to space and read only constraints. Of course, you can allways update the system on the machine, without saving to disk, you just lose that data later.
Snit <S...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote: > "Jim Richardson" <warl...@eskimo.com> wrote in post > svllf2-541....@grendel.myth on 3/4/05 2:22 AM:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1
>> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:22:39 -0700, >> Snit <S...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote: >>> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party >>> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand... >>> but, hey, it worked.
>> So the root problem was Apple's difficulty in handling the .iso burning? :)
> You can believe that if you wish. :)
what else could it be? was the iso not following the iso spec or something?
>>> OK, some initial thoughts on my rather limited experience with a modern >>> Linux: Ubuntu/PowerPC_hoary
>>> 1) Wow... they sure manage to shove a lot on that one CD. Really very >>> impressive - the whole OS, Firefox, OpenOffice, the Gimp, GAIM, Evolution, >>> etc. Lots of relatively high quality apps... while I have used OpenOffice >>> and the Gimp and find them lacking in relation to MS Office and Photoshop, >>> still cool that they can fit them on one CD and there is no doubt that the >>> applications are good - very good even... just not top of their class.
>>> Some of my later complaints may be from them having to make some concessions >>> to get everything on one CD... and just from being a LiveCD
>> One thing I found when I was using Knoppix at a clients, for an >> extensive time, ( a couple of weeks) it got *faster* as it cached stuff, >> the machines had 512M of ram, and Knoppix really moves with that much >> ram.
>> After a while, Knoppix, was faster, than running XP from the harddrive >> :) something I found no end of amusement in.
> You worked with a LiveCD for a couple of weeks?
yes. I used Knoppix, and saved configs and work, to a thumbdrive. Worked very well. Also saved work to shared folder on the server.
>>> 2) Had some continued trouble boot - I have dual monitors and Hoary does not >>> seem to like that. Had to boot with the option "linux video=ofonly", which >>> is kindly suggested right on the initial screen. Still, for a computer >>> novice this would have likely been far more stressful than it was for me. >>> The first thing you see is a bunch of text telling you how to deal with >>> possible problems... I can see why, but not sure novice computer folks would >>> be as happy with that as they could be.
>> Can't recall for sure, but I *think* that Warty (the released version) >> hides all that, with a note at the bottom of the screen to press esc if >> you want all the details during the boot. Hoary is a prerelease, and I >> suspect that most of the folks using it, will be watching the boot, for >> problems. :)
> Makes sense, and I should have thought about that. Thanks.
>>> 3) Once it did start its boot process it went into a bunch of "DOS" looking >>> text screens with a bright red background. Not sure that was the best >>> choice of color...
>>> 4) When it gets past that it shows little icons of what it is loading... >>> sort of like OS 9. :)
>>> 5) The mouse was smooth - very smooth. No complaints there! Did not play >>> with the options, but did not feel the need since it was set up by default >>> to be just right. Hmmm, did not test opening tabs in Firefox with my middle >>> mouse button. Presumably that worked, too, but I will test it later.
>> It's a configurable option in FF IIRC. Don't know if it's default on in >> Hoary.
> As long as it is easy to set... not a big deal. Firefox on the Mac does > *not* have that... one of the reasons I do not use it. On Windows Firefox > is about all I do use any more.
considering Mac doesn't come with a 3 button mouse, I suppose it's not too surprising that FF doesn't require it.
>>> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to >>> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time,
>> if you dbl click on the calendar that pops up when you click on the >> clock display, you get Evolution's calendar window, with the day you >> clicked on. Nice integration :)
> I had shareware that did that with iCal. Still, good to see it come with > the OS... quite cool.
IIRC, Evolution will happily interface with ical calendars.
>>> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the >>> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that is >>> odd!
>> Timezones, the LiveCD will grab the time from the hw clock, and (IIRC) >> update it's own time, from the net if pos, but you have to select your >> time zone for the clock displayed on the GNOME menubar to be correct. >> The LiveCD has no way to tell where you are.
> Even after I selected the timezone the two times were different. > Pre-release oddity?
Possibly, sounds like a bug.
>>> 7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and >>> the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of >>> the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and they >>> just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
>> There are, I (for example) use an "Aqua" like skin, the name of which, >> escapes me at the moment. I don't care for Ubuntu's default skin. But >> changing it is simple, System->Preferences->Theme and select one you >> like. Don't know what the LiveCD comes with for themes.
> Might play with that next time I boot with it. And, of course, at some > point I hope to actually have a hard drive installed Linux to play with.
:)
>>> 8) Windows are very Windows like... min, max, close... even the menu on the >>> left... not impressive to see them copy Windows like that.
>> matter of preferance I suppose. Of course, you can always us a different >> windowmanager, with different button configs, if you chose. But I prefer >> it this way personally.
> I did find that I could drag the menu from a maximized window and it would > restore to a regular window. Not sure the value of it, but at least it was > different than Windows. :)
It's easier, it works the other way too, if you select maximise in the title bar options (rt click on title bar) then you can unmax the window by dragging it down from the top, and remax it, by dragging it up.
> The interface seemed like they borrowed some from Windows, some from Mac, > and then tried to through on all sorts of goodies that may or may not be > helpful.
GNOME has done some significant UI testing, it's different than OSX in many ways, but personally, I feel that most of them are improvements over OSX, which is, IMHO, working on assumptions from another era. OSX seems to focus on newbies, at the expense of what happens after they are no longer newbies. GNOME has a better balance between coddling, and enabline (again, IMO)
>>> 9) To make changes I had to use my root password... but I had not set one >>> up! Did not see in my quick look in help or docs what the default is. >>> Guessed it on my third try (yeah, I am a freakin' genius, it is "ubuntu
>> No, you use the password you log in with, Ubuntu uses sudo for >> administration, there is no root password set by default, root can't >> actually log in, on the default config. You'd have to sudo a shell or >> the like to become root.
> When I tried to make changes it demanded I enter the root password. That is > all I can really tell you on the subject.
that's a bug then. Ubuntu is trying to go entirely sudo for admin. Although it's possible that this is an oddity of the LiveCD. IIRC, for now, the LiveCD uses Morphix as a base, and not Ubuntu's setup. So that's probably the diff.
>>> 10) The help system does not have a search! What the heck! That is >>> silly...
>> yeah, I find GNOME's help system to be little help :) It's rather >> resource hungry, and doesn't carry much useful info. Although it does >> bring in the man pages, and that's nice.
> If it merely did not have much info I could accept that, esp. on a > pre-release. Help tends to be done late in the game. But to not even let > you search help... that is just silly.
Yes.
>>> 11) It did not recognize, at least not that I could tell, that I had >>> inserted my thumb drive. Disappointing.
>> Works fine here, might be a PPC issue, don't know. But if you were >> expecting an icon to pop up, that may be turned off. Go to >> System->Preferences->Removeable drives and media, the options are there.
> Thanks, will check it out later.
also, you can check the Places->Computer menu selection, and look for the flashdrive there. Mine pops up as "LEXAR MEDIA" which causes some grief with some of the cli tools, due to the space.
>>> 12) There are dual menus... they have a menu on the top sort of like the >>> Mac, but each window is like Windows. You can move and even remove the >>> "panels", which is what they call the Mac like menu area... and you can add >>> more of them if you like.
>> Yes, including adding things like a dictionary lookup, a file lookup >> tool, a small command line util, address book search, etc. Plus any app >> on the machine. Also, you can add a connect to server applet, which will >> allow you to connect via ftp, sftp, smb, nfs, etc, treats them all as >> part of the filesystem, so you can easily drag and drop files from a >> remote ftp server, to an smb share on another machine. Etc.
> Have not played with OS X's Dashboard yet, but that seems to give access in > a more organized way than just having little icons all over. I do like > *some* icons available - such as weather, e-mail, etc... and it was good to > see those were either on by default or easy to find with Linux. No need to > download or install... they were already there. As I said, I was very > impressed
> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:37:54 -0700, > Snit <S...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote: >> "Jim Richardson" <warl...@eskimo.com> wrote in post >> svllf2-541....@grendel.myth on 3/4/05 2:22 AM:
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>> Hash: SHA1
>>> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:22:39 -0700, >>> Snit <S...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote: >>>> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party >>>> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand... >>>> but, hey, it worked.
>>> So the root problem was Apple's difficulty in handling the .iso burning? :)
>> You can believe that if you wish. :)
> what else could it be? was the iso not following the iso spec or > something?
It did not work with the mostly likely tool for it to be used with. I do not know who did or did not follow the spec.
>>>> OK, some initial thoughts on my rather limited experience with a modern >>>> Linux: Ubuntu/PowerPC_hoary
>>>> 1) Wow... they sure manage to shove a lot on that one CD. Really very >>>> impressive - the whole OS, Firefox, OpenOffice, the Gimp, GAIM, Evolution, >>>> etc. Lots of relatively high quality apps... while I have used OpenOffice >>>> and the Gimp and find them lacking in relation to MS Office and Photoshop, >>>> still cool that they can fit them on one CD and there is no doubt that the >>>> applications are good - very good even... just not top of their class.
>>>> Some of my later complaints may be from them having to make some >>>> concessions >>>> to get everything on one CD... and just from being a LiveCD
>>> One thing I found when I was using Knoppix at a clients, for an >>> extensive time, ( a couple of weeks) it got *faster* as it cached stuff, >>> the machines had 512M of ram, and Knoppix really moves with that much >>> ram.
>>> After a while, Knoppix, was faster, than running XP from the harddrive >>> :) something I found no end of amusement in.
>> You worked with a LiveCD for a couple of weeks?
> yes. I used Knoppix, and saved configs and work, to a thumbdrive. Worked > very well. Also saved work to shared folder on the server.
>>>> 2) Had some continued trouble boot - I have dual monitors and Hoary does >>>> not >>>> seem to like that. Had to boot with the option "linux video=ofonly", which >>>> is kindly suggested right on the initial screen. Still, for a computer >>>> novice this would have likely been far more stressful than it was for me. >>>> The first thing you see is a bunch of text telling you how to deal with >>>> possible problems... I can see why, but not sure novice computer folks >>>> would >>>> be as happy with that as they could be.
>>> Can't recall for sure, but I *think* that Warty (the released version) >>> hides all that, with a note at the bottom of the screen to press esc if >>> you want all the details during the boot. Hoary is a prerelease, and I >>> suspect that most of the folks using it, will be watching the boot, for >>> problems. :)
>> Makes sense, and I should have thought about that. Thanks.
>>>> 3) Once it did start its boot process it went into a bunch of "DOS" looking >>>> text screens with a bright red background. Not sure that was the best >>>> choice of color...
>>>> 4) When it gets past that it shows little icons of what it is loading... >>>> sort of like OS 9. :)
>>>> 5) The mouse was smooth - very smooth. No complaints there! Did not play >>>> with the options, but did not feel the need since it was set up by default >>>> to be just right. Hmmm, did not test opening tabs in Firefox with my >>>> middle >>>> mouse button. Presumably that worked, too, but I will test it later.
>>> It's a configurable option in FF IIRC. Don't know if it's default on in >>> Hoary.
>> As long as it is easy to set... not a big deal. Firefox on the Mac does >> *not* have that... one of the reasons I do not use it. On Windows Firefox >> is about all I do use any more.
> considering Mac doesn't come with a 3 button mouse, I suppose it's not > too surprising that FF doesn't require it.
Well, FF does not require it anywhere, but it does support it. Wish it did on OS X.
>>>> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to >>>> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time,
>>> if you dbl click on the calendar that pops up when you click on the >>> clock display, you get Evolution's calendar window, with the day you >>> clicked on. Nice integration :)
>> I had shareware that did that with iCal. Still, good to see it come with >> the OS... quite cool.
> IIRC, Evolution will happily interface with ical calendars.
>>>> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the >>>> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that >>>> is >>>> odd!
>>> Timezones, the LiveCD will grab the time from the hw clock, and (IIRC) >>> update it's own time, from the net if pos, but you have to select your >>> time zone for the clock displayed on the GNOME menubar to be correct. >>> The LiveCD has no way to tell where you are.
>> Even after I selected the timezone the two times were different. >> Pre-release oddity?
> Possibly, sounds like a bug.
Seemed that way to me... but when you use pre-release software that is to be expected.
>>>> 7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and >>>> the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of >>>> the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and >>>> they >>>> just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
>>> There are, I (for example) use an "Aqua" like skin, the name of which, >>> escapes me at the moment. I don't care for Ubuntu's default skin. But >>> changing it is simple, System->Preferences->Theme and select one you >>> like. Don't know what the LiveCD comes with for themes.
>> Might play with that next time I boot with it. And, of course, at some >> point I hope to actually have a hard drive installed Linux to play with.
> :)
>>>> 8) Windows are very Windows like... min, max, close... even the menu on the >>>> left... not impressive to see them copy Windows like that.
>>> matter of preferance I suppose. Of course, you can always us a different >>> windowmanager, with different button configs, if you chose. But I prefer >>> it this way personally.
>> I did find that I could drag the menu from a maximized window and it would >> restore to a regular window. Not sure the value of it, but at least it was >> different than Windows. :)
> It's easier, it works the other way too, if you select maximise in the > title bar options (rt click on title bar) then you can unmax the window > by dragging it down from the top, and remax it, by dragging it up.
Not sure how much I would use this, but do not see what it hurts, either. :)
>> The interface seemed like they borrowed some from Windows, some from Mac, >> and then tried to through on all sorts of goodies that may or may not be >> helpful.
> GNOME has done some significant UI testing, it's different than OSX in > many ways, but personally, I feel that most of them are improvements > over OSX, which is, IMHO, working on assumptions from another era. OSX > seems to focus on newbies, at the expense of what happens after they are > no longer newbies. GNOME has a better balance between coddling, and > enabline (again, IMO)
Linux in general is focused more on folks who like to tinker - nothing wrong with that, just a somewhat different focus than OS X which is designed for people who just want it to work out of the box. Sure, you can personalize OS X, but it is not the tinkerers paradise like Linux is.
>>>> 9) To make changes I had to use my root password... but I had not set one >>>> up! Did not see in my quick look in help or docs what the default is. >>>> Guessed it on my third try (yeah, I am a freakin' genius, it is "ubuntu
>>> No, you use the password you log in with, Ubuntu uses sudo for >>> administration, there is no root password set by default, root can't >>> actually log in, on the default config. You'd have to sudo a shell or >>> the like to become root.
>> When I tried to make changes it demanded I enter the root password. That is >> all I can really tell you on the subject.
> that's a bug then. Ubuntu is trying to go entirely sudo for admin. > Although it's possible that this is an oddity of the LiveCD. IIRC, for > now, the LiveCD uses Morphix as a base, and not Ubuntu's setup. So > that's probably the diff.
>>>> 10) The help system does not have a search! What the heck! That is >>>> silly...
>>> yeah, I find GNOME's help system to be little help :) It's rather >>> resource hungry, and doesn't carry much useful info. Although it does >>> bring in the man pages, and that's nice.
>> If it merely did not have much info I could accept that, esp. on a >> pre-release. Help tends to be done late in the game. But to not even let >> you search help... that is just silly.
> Yes.
>>>> 11) It did not recognize, at least not that I could tell, that I had >>>> inserted my thumb drive. Disappointing.
>>> Works fine here, might be a PPC issue, don't know. But if you were >>> expecting an icon to pop up, that may be turned off. Go to >>> System->Preferences->Removeable drives and media, the options are there.
>> Thanks, will check it out later.
> also, you can check the Places->Computer menu selection, and look for > the flashdrive there. Mine pops up as "LEXAR MEDIA" which causes some > grief with some of the cli tools, due to the space.
> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 06:33:22 -0600, > Linønut <linøn...@bone.com> wrote: >> Snit poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>>> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party >>> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand... >>> but, hey, it worked.
>> It is nice to see someone try Linux, even if they say it ain't perfect >> <grin>.
> more like, it's nice to see someone trying it without slagging it > because it *isn't* perfect. I for one, don't expect perfection, simply > that it be better than the last time, and better than the alternatives.
I do not even ask for it to be better than the alternatives - just something I would be comfortable to use from time to time and would be able to recommend to students / clients looking to get away from MS. Or Apple.
I prefer OS X and do not see that changing - though who knows what I will find as I spend more time with Linux. To me, however, it is not a contest to see which is best. While I prefer OS X overall right now, there are things I prefer to do on XP. With time, I suspect there will be things I prefer to do on Linux... and people I suggest Linux to as the best choice for them.
>>> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to >>> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time, >>> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the >>> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that is >>> odd!
>> You can also use "date" and "cal" from the command line. The latter can be >> very useful for prognostication <grin>.
>>> 7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and >>> the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of >>> the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and they >>> just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
>> You can change the whole desktop: Gnome vs. KDE. You can change window >> managers: IceWM, XFce, fluxbox, WindowMaker, and lots more. You can change >> the window decorations. You can change the user interface coloring and >> appearance. There are quite a few user-interface rendering engines to >> choose from. For example, the one I'm using now adds depth, marbling, and >> reflections to the buttons and toolbars.
> Well, changing that stuff on the LiveCD is sometimes limited, due to > space and read only constraints. Of course, you can allways update the > system on the machine, without saving to disk, you just lose that data > later.
What if I get a CD RW? :)
-- "If you have integrity, nothing else matters." - Alan Simpson
_________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account
Snit <S...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote: > "Jim Richardson" <warl...@eskimo.com> wrote in post > 7oqmf2-ima....@grendel.myth on 3/4/05 12:49 PM:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1
>> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:37:54 -0700, >> Snit <S...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote: >>> "Jim Richardson" <warl...@eskimo.com> wrote in post >>> svllf2-541....@grendel.myth on 3/4/05 2:22 AM:
>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:22:39 -0700, >>>> Snit <S...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote: >>>>> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party >>>>> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand... >>>>> but, hey, it worked.
>>>> So the root problem was Apple's difficulty in handling the .iso burning? :)
>>> You can believe that if you wish. :)
>> what else could it be? was the iso not following the iso spec or >> something?
> It did not work with the mostly likely tool for it to be used with. I do > not know who did or did not follow the spec.
It works fine with the tools I have, and with the tools you can install via fink. Would it be better if it worked with Apple's builtins? yes, but before you can assign "blame" you have to know what the cause of the problem is. Maybe Apple is pulling a redmond and crippled them deliberately (unlikely, but a possibility) I have seen many messages discussing the failure of Apple's tools to perform this task, but none that show what the actual problem is caused by.
>>>>> OK, some initial thoughts on my rather limited experience with a modern >>>>> Linux: Ubuntu/PowerPC_hoary
>>>>> 1) Wow... they sure manage to shove a lot on that one CD. Really very >>>>> impressive - the whole OS, Firefox, OpenOffice, the Gimp, GAIM, Evolution, >>>>> etc. Lots of relatively high quality apps... while I have used OpenOffice >>>>> and the Gimp and find them lacking in relation to MS Office and Photoshop, >>>>> still cool that they can fit them on one CD and there is no doubt that the >>>>> applications are good - very good even... just not top of their class.
>>>>> Some of my later complaints may be from them having to make some >>>>> concessions >>>>> to get everything on one CD... and just from being a LiveCD
>>>> One thing I found when I was using Knoppix at a clients, for an >>>> extensive time, ( a couple of weeks) it got *faster* as it cached stuff, >>>> the machines had 512M of ram, and Knoppix really moves with that much >>>> ram.
>>>> After a while, Knoppix, was faster, than running XP from the harddrive >>>> :) something I found no end of amusement in.
>>> You worked with a LiveCD for a couple of weeks?
>> yes. I used Knoppix, and saved configs and work, to a thumbdrive. Worked >> very well. Also saved work to shared folder on the server.
> Very cool...
yeah, it saved me from having to either drag in a laptop, or use <shudder> XP to do the work. (which would have involved a lot of extra tool downloads, and more involvement with that OS than I like to have.)
>>> As long as it is easy to set... not a big deal. Firefox on the Mac does >>> *not* have that... one of the reasons I do not use it. On Windows Firefox >>> is about all I do use any more.
>> considering Mac doesn't come with a 3 button mouse, I suppose it's not >> too surprising that FF doesn't require it.
> Well, FF does not require it anywhere, but it does support it. Wish it did > on OS X.
Agreed, it should at least be an option. For those who aren't limited to a one button hand :)
>>>>> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to >>>>> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time,
>>>> if you dbl click on the calendar that pops up when you click on the >>>> clock display, you get Evolution's calendar window, with the day you >>>> clicked on. Nice integration :)
>>> I had shareware that did that with iCal. Still, good to see it come with >>> the OS... quite cool.
>> IIRC, Evolution will happily interface with ical calendars.
> Also cool.
:) Evolution now does Usenet, although I haven't used it for such yet. I'll probably play with it later. I am starting to like it for mail, although Mutt is still my fav there. More polished functionality than anything else I have encountered (mutt that is)
>>>>> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the >>>>> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that >>>>> is >>>>> odd!
>>>> Timezones, the LiveCD will grab the time from the hw clock, and (IIRC) >>>> update it's own time, from the net if pos, but you have to select your >>>> time zone for the clock displayed on the GNOME menubar to be correct. >>>> The LiveCD has no way to tell where you are.
>>> Even after I selected the timezone the two times were different. >>> Pre-release oddity?
>> Possibly, sounds like a bug.
> Seemed that way to me... but when you use pre-release software that is to be > expected.
I think it's more to do with the LiveCD maybe. I am using Hoary here, and don't have the problem, but this is x86, and installed to HD, so there are some significant differences, especially in the way x86 handles the clock.
>>>> matter of preferance I suppose. Of course, you can always us a different >>>> windowmanager, with different button configs, if you chose. But I prefer >>>> it this way personally.
>>> I did find that I could drag the menu from a maximized window and it would >>> restore to a regular window. Not sure the value of it, but at least it was >>> different than Windows. :)
>> It's easier, it works the other way too, if you select maximise in the >> title bar options (rt click on title bar) then you can unmax the window >> by dragging it down from the top, and remax it, by dragging it up.
> Not sure how much I would use this, but do not see what it hurts, either. >:)
>>> The interface seemed like they borrowed some from Windows, some from Mac, >>> and then tried to through on all sorts of goodies that may or may not be >>> helpful.
>> GNOME has done some significant UI testing, it's different than OSX in >> many ways, but personally, I feel that most of them are improvements >> over OSX, which is, IMHO, working on assumptions from another era. OSX >> seems to focus on newbies, at the expense of what happens after they are >> no longer newbies. GNOME has a better balance between coddling, and >> enabline (again, IMO)
> Linux in general is focused more on folks who like to tinker - nothing wrong > with that, just a somewhat different focus than OS X which is designed for > people who just want it to work out of the box. Sure, you can personalize > OS XA, but it is not the tinkerers paradise like Linux is.
I think that has been true in the past, and is still, with many distros. But there are many distros that don't require, or even encourage, such tinkering. That come set up from the gitgo. Ubuntu being one of them. Now, like most, you *can* tinker, but it's not required.
<snip>
>>> Have not played with OS X's Dashboard yet, but that seems to give access in >>> a more organized way than just having little icons all over. I do like >>> *some* icons available - such as weather, e-mail, etc... and it was good to >>> see those were either on by default or easy to find with Linux. No need to >>> download or install... they were already there. As I said, I was very >>> impressed with how much came on one CD.
>> I am unsure of what you mean by "little icons all over" what are we >> talking about? the dock at the foot of the screen?
> The docks on top and bottom - which also act as menus. They seem a bit of a > catch-all to me.
You can remove either or both. (not much point to GNOME if you remove both, but the option's there. ) The top menu bar reminds me somewhat of the old finder, but I didn't use MacOS much when I had one, mostly Beos and Linux :)
>> actually, I was referring to the LiveCD's contents. Even the little ones >> like DSL, which fits into a 50MB business card CD. Linux is *king* of >> the LiveCDs, no question there at all.
> No question at all? Hold on...
> [crickets chirping]
> Ok. No question at all. :)
:)
There are a couple of *BSD liveCDs, but they pale in comparison to the Knoppix and other ones available for Linux, their hw detection is far less effective, they are geared even more than most Linux distro's to the "hard core" *Nix folks. I think there's an example XP liveCD, but again, it lacks much in the way of HW support, and can't be distributed so it's hard to test.
>>> No argument here. Even with the little gotchas that I ran into, overall I >>> would say that the one modern Linux I tried was impressive. Would need to >>> use it for a while to really form any solid opinions.
>> Yeah, that's the only way to get a good feel for something like this.
> You mean I can not just base it on a Google search for screen shots? :)
Snit <S...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote: > "Jim Richardson" <warl...@eskimo.com> wrote in post > j0rmf2-ima....@grendel.myth on 3/4/05 12:54 PM:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1
>> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 06:33:22 -0600, >> Linønut <linøn...@bone.com> wrote: >>> Snit poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>>>> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party >>>> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand... >>>> but, hey, it worked.
>>> It is nice to see someone try Linux, even if they say it ain't perfect >>> <grin>.
>> more like, it's nice to see someone trying it without slagging it >> because it *isn't* perfect. I for one, don't expect perfection, simply >> that it be better than the last time, and better than the alternatives.
> I do not even ask for it to be better than the alternatives - just something > I would be comfortable to use from time to time and would be able to > recommend to students / clients looking to get away from MS. Or Apple.
> I prefer OS X and do not see that changing - though who knows what I will > find as I spend more time with Linux. To me, however, it is not a contest > to see which is best. While I prefer OS X overall right now, there are > things I prefer to do on XP. With time, I suspect there will be things I > prefer to do on Linux... and people I suggest Linux to as the best choice > for them.
it's good to know about the alternatives, and of course, everything in life is a compromise, even Linux :) some things need improving before they are really usable. See early versions of Evolution for one such example :) It has matured well.
>>>> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to >>>> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time, >>>> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the >>>> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that is >>>> odd!
>>> You can also use "date" and "cal" from the command line. The latter can be >>> very useful for prognostication <grin>.
>>>> 7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and >>>> the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of >>>> the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and they >>>> just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
>>> You can change the whole desktop: Gnome vs. KDE. You can change window >>> managers: IceWM, XFce, fluxbox, WindowMaker, and lots more. You can change >>> the window decorations. You can change the user interface coloring and >>> appearance. There are quite a few user-interface rendering engines to >>> choose from. For example, the one I'm using now adds depth, marbling, and >>> reflections to the buttons and toolbars.
>> Well, changing that stuff on the LiveCD is sometimes limited, due to >> space and read only constraints. Of course, you can allways update the >> system on the machine, without saving to disk, you just lose that data >> later.
> What if I get a CD RW? :)
You can remaster Knoppix quite easily, and there are "build your own LiveCD" tools for Debian and other distros. Debian has a particularly nice setup, which allows you to duplicate an existing system, on a LiveCD, (or series of CDs if there's too much stuff for one. Don't know if it will do a LiveDVD yet)
>>>>> Snit poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>>>>> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party >>>>> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand... >>>>> but, hey, it worked.
>>>> It is nice to see someone try Linux, even if they say it ain't perfect >>>> <grin>.
>>> more like, it's nice to see someone trying it without slagging it >>> because it *isn't* perfect. I for one, don't expect perfection, simply >>> that it be better than the last time, and better than the alternatives.
>> I do not even ask for it to be better than the alternatives - just something >> I would be comfortable to use from time to time and would be able to >> recommend to students / clients looking to get away from MS. Or Apple.
>> I prefer OS X and do not see that changing - though who knows what I will >> find as I spend more time with Linux. To me, however, it is not a contest >> to see which is best. While I prefer OS X overall right now, there are >> things I prefer to do on XP. With time, I suspect there will be things I >> prefer to do on Linux... and people I suggest Linux to as the best choice >> for them.
> it's good to know about the alternatives, and of course, everything in > life is a compromise, even Linux :) some things need improving before > they are really usable. See early versions of Evolution for one such > example :) It has matured well.
Even if I end up not liking or using Linux I think I will be better off knowing it at least passably well - which right now I do not. Just as one learns their own language better as they learn foreign languages, I will learn OS X better as I learn Linux.
And even if I never learn to love Linux, that does not imply that I think others should not use it or like it. I would like to know when it is appropriate to suggest Linux to students / clients. At this point it is largely based on hearsay.
>>>> You can change the whole desktop: Gnome vs. KDE. You can change window >>>> managers: IceWM, XFce, fluxbox, WindowMaker, and lots more. You can >>>> change the window decorations. You can change the user interface coloring >>>> and appearance. There are quite a few user-interface rendering engines to >>>> choose from. For example, the one I'm using now adds depth, marbling, and >>>> reflections to the buttons and toolbars.
>>> Well, changing that stuff on the LiveCD is sometimes limited, due to space >>> and read only constraints. Of course, you can allways update the system on >>> the machine, without saving to disk, you just lose that data later.
>> What if I get a CD RW? :)
> You can remaster Knoppix quite easily, and there are "build your own > LiveCD" tools for Debian and other distros. Debian has a particularly > nice setup, which allows you to duplicate an existing system, on a > LiveCD, (or series of CDs if there's too much stuff for one. Don't know > if it will do a LiveDVD yet)
Thanks...
-- Look, this is silly. It's not an argument, it's an armor plated walrus with walnut paneling and an all leather interior.
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>>>>>> Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party >>>>>> burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not >>>>>> understand... but, hey, it worked.
>>>>> So the root problem was Apple's difficulty in handling the .iso burning? >>>>> :)
>>>> You can believe that if you wish. :)
>>> what else could it be? was the iso not following the iso spec or something?
>> It did not work with the mostly likely tool for it to be used with. I do not >> know who did or did not follow the spec.
> It works fine with the tools I have, and with the tools you can install > via fink. Would it be better if it worked with Apple's builtins? yes, but > before you can assign "blame" you have to know what the cause of the > problem is. Maybe Apple is pulling a redmond and crippled them > deliberately (unlikely, but a possibility) I have seen many messages > discussing the failure of Apple's tools to perform this task, but none > that show what the actual problem is caused by.
Oh, if recent older versions of Apple's utilities worked and the new ones do not I certainly would not blame the folks who make the ISO. I have seen nothing to suggest that is the case, however.
>>>> You worked with a LiveCD for a couple of weeks?
>>> yes. I used Knoppix, and saved configs and work, to a thumbdrive. Worked >>> very well. Also saved work to shared folder on the server.
>> Very cool...
> yeah, it saved me from having to either drag in a laptop, or use > <shudder> XP to do the work. (which would have involved a lot of extra > tool downloads, and more involvement with that OS than I like to have.)
Burns your fingers, eh?
I do not like XP very much, but I teach it to college students - and teach on it when I am teaching other programs. I do not know all of the reg hacks that the real XP geeks know, but as far as general use I generally know it better than the XP fans in CSMA. Drives them crazy when I point out the many, many weaknesses in XP. I recently did a comparison of dialogs, and XP does not fare too well. At some point I will likely add a specific distro of Linux with some front end... but there are just too many choices in Linux to do a "fair" comparison.
If you care and missed it from before, here is the comparison:
I also recently pointed out a bug in folder creation on XP - one that is likely not a big deal for any regular in CSMA or COLA, but one that could slow down a new user - perhaps greatly:
I find it funny that some of the XP supporters were not even able to understand the bug. They just sunk to trolling and flaming...
>>>> As long as it is easy to set... not a big deal. Firefox on the Mac does >>>> *not* have that... one of the reasons I do not use it. On Windows Firefox >>>> is about all I do use any more.
>>> considering Mac doesn't come with a 3 button mouse, I suppose it's not >>> too surprising that FF doesn't require it.
>> Well, FF does not require it anywhere, but it does support it. Wish it did >> on OS X.
> Agreed, it should at least be an option. For those who aren't limited to > a one button hand :)
>>>>>> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to >>>>>> get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time,
>>>>> if you dbl click on the calendar that pops up when you click on the >>>>> clock display, you get Evolution's calendar window, with the day you >>>>> clicked on. Nice integration :)
>>>> I had shareware that did that with iCal. Still, good to see it come with >>>> the OS... quite cool.
>>> IIRC, Evolution will happily interface with ical calendars.
>> Also cool.
> :) Evolution now does Usenet, although I haven't used it for such yet. > I'll probably play with it later. I am starting to like it for mail, > although Mutt is still my fav there. More polished functionality than > anything else I have encountered (mutt that is)
Will add that to my list of programs to play with... if I ever get a chance.
>>>>>> though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the >>>>>> control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that >>>>>> is odd!
>>>>> Timezones, the LiveCD will grab the time from the hw clock, and (IIRC) >>>>> update it's own time, from the net if pos, but you have to select your >>>>> time zone for the clock displayed on the GNOME menubar to be correct. The >>>>> LiveCD has no way to tell where you are.
>>>> Even after I selected the timezone the two times were different. >>>> Pre-release oddity?
>>> Possibly, sounds like a bug.
>> Seemed that way to me... but when you use pre-release software that is to be >> expected.
> I think it's more to do with the LiveCD maybe. I am using Hoary here, > and don't have the problem, but this is x86, and installed to HD, so > there are some significant differences, especially in the way x86 > handles the clock.
Makes sense. I noted the bug and figured it was some quirk that would not exist on a full install. I can not image that being the norm.
>>>>> matter of preferance I suppose. Of course, you can always us a different >>>>> windowmanager, with different button configs, if you chose. But I prefer >>>>> it this way personally.
>>>> I did find that I could drag the menu from a maximized window and it would >>>> restore to a regular window. Not sure the value of it, but at least it was >>>> different than Windows. :)
>>> It's easier, it works the other way too, if you select maximise in the >>> title bar options (rt click on title bar) then you can unmax the window >>> by dragging it down from the top, and remax it, by dragging it up.
>> Not sure how much I would use this, but do not see what it hurts, either. >> :)
>>>> The interface seemed like they borrowed some from Windows, some from Mac, >>>> and then tried to through on all sorts of goodies that may or may not be >>>> helpful.
>>> GNOME has done some significant UI testing, it's different than OSX in >>> many ways, but personally, I feel that most of them are improvements >>> over OSX, which is, IMHO, working on assumptions from another era. OSX >>> seems to focus on newbies, at the expense of what happens after they are >>> no longer newbies. GNOME has a better balance between coddling, and >>> enabline (again, IMO)
>> Linux in general is focused more on folks who like to tinker - nothing wrong >> with that, just a somewhat different focus than OS X which is designed for >> people who just want it to work out of the box. Sure, you can personalize >> OS XA, but it is not the tinkerers paradise like Linux is.
> I think that has been true in the past, and is still, with many distros. > But there are many distros that don't require, or even encourage, such > tinkering. That come set up from the gitgo. Ubuntu being one of them. > Now, like most, you *can* tinker, but it's not required.
Even with Ubunto I found that one "bad" right click choice and things had to be "fixed". Sure, I broke it (well, played with it - others would see it as broken).
>>>> Have not played with OS X's Dashboard yet, but that seems to give access in >>>> a more organized way than just having little icons all over. I do like >>>> *some* icons available - such as weather, e-mail, etc... and it was good to >>>> see those were either on by default or easy to find with Linux. No need to >>>> download or install... they were already there. As I said, I was very >>>> impressed with how much came on one CD.
>>> I am unsure of what you mean by "little icons all over" what are we >>> talking about? the dock at the foot of the screen?
>> The docks on top and bottom - which also act as menus. They seem a bit of a >> catch-all to me.
> You can remove either or both. (not much point to GNOME if you remove > both, but the option's there. ) The top menu bar reminds me somewhat of > the old finder, but I didn't use MacOS much when I had one, mostly Beos > and Linux :)
OK, I did not remove all bars... how would I get one back if I had? Would I have to open the drive and dig for a program somewhere?
>>> actually, I was referring to the LiveCD's contents. Even the little ones >>> like DSL, which fits into a 50MB business card CD. Linux is *king* of >>> the LiveCDs, no question there at all.
>> No question at all? Hold on...
>> [crickets chirping]
>> Ok. No question at all. :)
> :)
> There are a couple of *BSD liveCDs, but they pale in comparison to the > Knoppix and other ones available for Linux, their hw detection is far > less effective, they are geared even more than most Linux distro's to > the "hard core" *Nix folks. I think there's an example XP liveCD, but > again, it lacks much in the way of HW support, and can't be distributed > so it's hard to test.
And, of course, it is XP. That is a downside in itself. :)
>>>> No argument here. Even with the little gotchas that I ran into, overall I >>>> would say that the one modern Linux I tried was impressive. Would need to >>>> use it for a while to really form any solid opinions.
>>> Yeah, that's the only way to get a good feel for something like this.
>> You mean I can not just base it on a Google search for screen shots? :)
> well, you *can*, but it's not very helpful :)
Hey! I am the one being the smart ass... does not help if you and I both are...
Snit <S...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote: > "Jim Richardson" <warl...@eskimo.com> wrote in post > 8v0nf2-s6c....@grendel.myth on 3/4/05 2:36 PM:
>> it's good to know about the alternatives, and of course, everything in >> life is a compromise, even Linux :) some things need improving before >> they are really usable. See early versions of Evolution for one such >> example :) It has matured well.
> Even if I end up not liking or using Linux I think I will be better off > knowing it at least passably well - which right now I do not. Just as one > learns their own language better as they learn foreign languages, I will > learn OS X better as I learn Linux.
funny you should say this, I found this out a few years go when I was studying Russian, I had to go and get a refresher in English, to understand some of the explanations regarding Russian grammar :)
> And even if I never learn to love Linux, that does not imply that I think > others should not use it or like it. I would like to know when it is > appropriate to suggest Linux to students / clients. At this point it is > largely based on hearsay.
It's good to learn new stuff. Even if you don't need it directly. I feel much the same way about OSX, as you do about Linux. :) But I don't currently have the dosh to lay out on a used Mac to play with it, nor the space for anything other than a mini or a laptop. (or a cube, I always liked those.)
>> You can remaster Knoppix quite easily, and there are "build your own >> LiveCD" tools for Debian and other distros. Debian has a particularly >> nice setup, which allows you to duplicate an existing system, on a >> LiveCD, (or series of CDs if there's too much stuff for one. Don't know >> if it will do a LiveDVD yet)
> Thanks...
Remastering Knoppix is almost a "killer app" in and of itself. It's one reason for the vast proliferation of Knoppix derived distros.
Snit <S...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote: > "Jim Richardson" <warl...@eskimo.com> wrote in post > ap0nf2-s6c....@grendel.myth on 3/4/05 2:32 PM:
>> It works fine with the tools I have, and with the tools you can install >> via fink. Would it be better if it worked with Apple's builtins? yes, but >> before you can assign "blame" you have to know what the cause of the >> problem is. Maybe Apple is pulling a redmond and crippled them >> deliberately (unlikely, but a possibility) I have seen many messages >> discussing the failure of Apple's tools to perform this task, but none >> that show what the actual problem is caused by.
> Oh, if recent older versions of Apple's utilities worked and the new ones do > not I certainly would not blame the folks who make the ISO. I have seen > nothing to suggest that is the case, however.
Like I said, I have seen nothing that states what the root problem is, so am unable to comment further in that direction. It seems to be more than just "this image is wonky" since it affects more than on .iso image, but it's not a complete "Apple can't burn ISOs" either.
<snip>
>> yeah, it saved me from having to either drag in a laptop, or use >> <shudder> XP to do the work. (which would have involved a lot of extra >> tool downloads, and more involvement with that OS than I like to have.)
> Burns your fingers, eh?
I found XP to be slow, clunky, not particularly well thought out in layout or function. It worked, for most tasks, but really fell down in many areas. Don't even get me started on profiles and roaming profiles. XPs handling of the functionality that *nix has out of the box (log in anywhere, and that can be "your" machine) is pathetic.
> I do not like XP very much, but I teach it to college students - and teach > on it when I am teaching other programs. I do not know all of the reg hacks > that the real XP geeks know, but as far as general use I generally know it > better than the XP fans in CSMA. Drives them crazy when I point out the > many, many weaknesses in XP. I recently did a comparison of dialogs, and XP > does not fare too well. At some point I will likely add a specific distro > of Linux with some front end... but there are just too many choices in Linux > to do a "fair" comparison.
It's not so much the distros, as the environments, comparing with say, GNOME 2.8 or KDE 3.4 makes sense, comparing with say, RHEL less so, unless you also specify the DE/WM. While some distros (RH at least) dink greatly with the GNOME and KDE setups, most seem to leave them pretty much alone. Making it easier to cross over from one distro to another, if you stay with a specific DE. There are of course, differences under the hood, but that's another matter entirely.
> If you care and missed it from before, here is the comparison:
> I also recently pointed out a bug in folder creation on XP - one that is > likely not a big deal for any regular in CSMA or COLA, but one that could > slow down a new user - perhaps greatly:
There are several "Gotcha's" with XP. But most of the time, I don't have to deal with it enough to really get the blood boiling. Although this weekend I am going to help a friend set up his machines to "share" between them, he has W2kPro, and XP (possibly pro, he doesn't know for sure) and they aren't talking together very well... Go figure.
> I find it funny that some of the XP supporters were not even able to > understand the bug. They just sunk to trolling and flaming...
that's what trolls do. Not that all Redmondites are trolls, but most of them in the Linux groups sure seem to be.
>> I think it's more to do with the LiveCD maybe. I am using Hoary here, >> and don't have the problem, but this is x86, and installed to HD, so >> there are some significant differences, especially in the way x86 >> handles the clock.
> Makes sense. I noted the bug and figured it was some quirk that would not > exist on a full install. I can not image that being the norm.
agreed. It would be a pretty lame bug :)
>> I think that has been true in the past, and is still, with many distros. >> But there are many distros that don't require, or even encourage, such >> tinkering. That come set up from the gitgo. Ubuntu being one of them. >> Now, like most, you *can* tinker, but it's not required.
> Even with Ubunto I found that one "bad" right click choice and things had to > be "fixed". Sure, I broke it (well, played with it - others would see it as > broken).
what broke with a rt click? if you rt click on the menubar, and select delete this panel, it asks for confirmation. If you click "OK" on that, then I have little sympathy :)
>> You can remove either or both. (not much point to GNOME if you remove >> both, but the option's there. ) The top menu bar reminds me somewhat of >> the old finder, but I didn't use MacOS much when I had one, mostly Beos >> and Linux :)
> OK, I did not remove all bars... how would I get one back if I had? Would I > have to open the drive and dig for a program somewhere?
You could open a terminal, and run a new gnome-panel session I suspect. Or you could tinker with the configs in .gnome-private or .gnome dirs, but that's not too helpful.
>> There are a couple of *BSD liveCDs, but they pale in comparison to the >> Knoppix and other ones available for Linux, their hw detection is far >> less effective, they are geared even more than most Linux distro's to >> the "hard core" *Nix folks. I think there's an example XP liveCD, but >> again, it lacks much in the way of HW support, and can't be distributed >> so it's hard to test.
> And, of course, it is XP. That is a downside in itself. :)
yeah, it's not exactly my goal, to be able to run XP instead of Linux... :)
>> well, you *can*, but it's not very helpful :)
> Hey! I am the one being the smart ass... does not help if you and I both > are...
> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:48:53 -0700, > Snit <S...@CABLE0NE.NET.INVALID> wrote: >> "Jim Richardson" <warl...@eskimo.com> wrote in post >> 8v0nf2-s6c....@grendel.myth on 3/4/05 2:36 PM:
>>> it's good to know about the alternatives, and of course, everything in >>> life is a compromise, even Linux :) some things need improving before >>> they are really usable. See early versions of Evolution for one such >>> example :) It has matured well.
>> Even if I end up not liking or using Linux I think I will be better off >> knowing it at least passably well - which right now I do not. Just as one >> learns their own language better as they learn foreign languages, I will >> learn OS X better as I learn Linux.
> funny you should say this, I found this out a few years go when I was > studying Russian, I had to go and get a refresher in English, to > understand some of the explanations regarding Russian grammar :)
I would bet that is not uncommon. And, in the end, learning Russian lead you to understanding English better.
>> And even if I never learn to love Linux, that does not imply that I think >> others should not use it or like it. I would like to know when it is >> appropriate to suggest Linux to students / clients. At this point it is >> largely based on hearsay.
> It's good to learn new stuff. Even if you don't need it directly. I feel > much the same way about OSX, as you do about Linux. :) But I don't > currently have the dosh to lay out on a used Mac to play with it, nor > the space for anything other than a mini or a laptop. (or a cube, I > always liked those.)
One good thing about Linux is I can play for free or nearly so... even if I have to do so on PPC where it is not as well supported or on an older x86 machine.
>>> You can remaster Knoppix quite easily, and there are "build your own >>> LiveCD" tools for Debian and other distros. Debian has a particularly >>> nice setup, which allows you to duplicate an existing system, on a >>> LiveCD, (or series of CDs if there's too much stuff for one. Don't know >>> if it will do a LiveDVD yet)
>> Thanks...
> Remastering Knoppix is almost a "killer app" in and of itself. It's one > reason for the vast proliferation of Knoppix derived distros.
Would love to see some company sell different distros pre-installed... and have a show-room where you can play to see the differences.
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>>> It works fine with the tools I have, and with the tools you can install >>> via fink. Would it be better if it worked with Apple's builtins? yes, but >>> before you can assign "blame" you have to know what the cause of the >>> problem is. Maybe Apple is pulling a redmond and crippled them >>> deliberately (unlikely, but a possibility) I have seen many messages >>> discussing the failure of Apple's tools to perform this task, but none >>> that show what the actual problem is caused by.
>> Oh, if recent older versions of Apple's utilities worked and the new ones do >> not I certainly would not blame the folks who make the ISO. I have seen >> nothing to suggest that is the case, however.
> Like I said, I have seen nothing that states what the root problem is, > so am unable to comment further in that direction. It seems to be more > than just "this image is wonky" since it affects more than on .iso > image, but it's not a complete "Apple can't burn ISOs" either.
I was not looking for the root cause, but simply at the silliness of putting out a disk image that can not be read by the majority of your audience. To not even have a warning is just silly.
> <snip>
>>> yeah, it saved me from having to either drag in a laptop, or use >>> <shudder> XP to do the work. (which would have involved a lot of extra >>> tool downloads, and more involvement with that OS than I like to have.)
>> Burns your fingers, eh?
> I found XP to be slow, clunky, not particularly well thought out in > layout or function.
Agreed. Seems with Linux, though, that I as a user have to make many of the decisions as to what layout I want... a strength and a weakness of Linux.
> It worked, for most tasks, but really fell down in > many areas. Don't even get me started on profiles and roaming profiles. > XPs handling of the functionality that *nix has out of the box (log in > anywhere, and that can be "your" machine) is pathetic.
>> I do not like XP very much, but I teach it to college students - and teach >> on it when I am teaching other programs. I do not know all of the reg hacks >> that the real XP geeks know, but as far as general use I generally know it >> better than the XP fans in CSMA. Drives them crazy when I point out the >> many, many weaknesses in XP. I recently did a comparison of dialogs, and XP >> does not fare too well. At some point I will likely add a specific distro >> of Linux with some front end... but there are just too many choices in Linux >> to do a "fair" comparison.
> It's not so much the distros, as the environments, comparing with say, > GNOME 2.8 or KDE 3.4 makes sense, comparing with say, RHEL less so, > unless you also specify the DE/WM. While some distros (RH at least) dink > greatly with the GNOME and KDE setups, most seem to leave them pretty > much alone. Making it easier to cross over from one distro to another, > if you stay with a specific DE. There are of course, differences under > the hood, but that's another matter entirely.
Maybe I will someday add KDE and GNOME to my comparison site:
>> I also recently pointed out a bug in folder creation on XP - one that is >> likely not a big deal for any regular in CSMA or COLA, but one that could >> slow down a new user - perhaps greatly:
> There are several "Gotcha's" with XP. But most of the time, I don't have > to deal with it enough to really get the blood boiling. Although this > weekend I am going to help a friend set up his machines to "share" > between them, he has W2kPro, and XP (possibly pro, he doesn't know for > sure) and they aren't talking together very well... Go figure.
Not uncommon.
>> I find it funny that some of the XP supporters were not even able to >> understand the bug. They just sunk to trolling and flaming...
> that's what trolls do. Not that all Redmondites are trolls, but most of > them in the Linux groups sure seem to be.
Ditto for the Mac group. Then again, many of the Mac folks are trolls, too.
>>> I think it's more to do with the LiveCD maybe. I am using Hoary here, >>> and don't have the problem, but this is x86, and installed to HD, so >>> there are some significant differences, especially in the way x86 >>> handles the clock.
>> Makes sense. I noted the bug and figured it was some quirk that would not >> exist on a full install. I can not image that being the norm.
> agreed. It would be a pretty lame bug :)
>>> I think that has been true in the past, and is still, with many distros. >>> But there are many distros that don't require, or even encourage, such >>> tinkering. That come set up from the gitgo. Ubuntu being one of them. >>> Now, like most, you *can* tinker, but it's not required.
>> Even with Ubunto I found that one "bad" right click choice and things had to >> be "fixed". Sure, I broke it (well, played with it - others would see it as >> broken).
> what broke with a rt click? if you rt click on the menubar, and select > delete this panel, it asks for confirmation. If you click "OK" on that, > then I have little sympathy :)
While I agree it would seem silly - sit in a room of new users still in "panic" mode and see how often they read. Sure, it *is* a user issue...
Hmmm, did not pay enough attention to the dialogs - does the button say "OK" or it is more descriptive, such as "delete panel" or something. OS X tends toward the descriptive buttons. XP does not.
>>> You can remove either or both. (not much point to GNOME if you remove >>> both, but the option's there. ) The top menu bar reminds me somewhat of >>> the old finder, but I didn't use MacOS much when I had one, mostly Beos >>> and Linux :)
>> OK, I did not remove all bars... how would I get one back if I had? Would I >> have to open the drive and dig for a program somewhere?
> You could open a terminal, and run a new gnome-panel session I suspect. > Or you could tinker with the configs in .gnome-private or .gnome dirs, > but that's not too helpful.
Ouch! There is no control panel or GUI utility to create one?
>>> There are a couple of *BSD liveCDs, but they pale in comparison to the >>> Knoppix and other ones available for Linux, their hw detection is far >>> less effective, they are geared even more than most Linux distro's to >>> the "hard core" *Nix folks. I think there's an example XP liveCD, but >>> again, it lacks much in the way of HW support, and can't be distributed >>> so it's hard to test.
>> And, of course, it is XP. That is a downside in itself. :)
> yeah, it's not exactly my goal, to be able to run XP instead of Linux... > :)
>>> well, you *can*, but it's not very helpful :)
>> Hey! I am the one being the smart ass... does not help if you and I both >> are...
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Snit wrote: > Ok, I finally got Linux to boot on my system. Had to find a third party > burner to be able to burn the ISO image for reasons I do not understand... > but, hey, it worked.
> OK, some initial thoughts on my rather limited experience with a modern > Linux: Ubuntu/PowerPC_hoary
> 1) Wow... they sure manage to shove a lot on that one CD. Really very > impressive - the whole OS, Firefox, OpenOffice, the Gimp, GAIM, Evolution, > etc. Lots of relatively high quality apps... while I have used OpenOffice > and the Gimp and find them lacking in relation to MS Office and Photoshop, > still cool that they can fit them on one CD and there is no doubt that the > applications are good - very good even... just not top of their class.
> Some of my later complaints may be from them having to make some concessions > to get everything on one CD... and just from being a LiveCD
> 2) Had some continued trouble boot - I have dual monitors and Hoary does not > seem to like that. Had to boot with the option "linux video=ofonly", which > is kindly suggested right on the initial screen. Still, for a computer > novice this would have likely been far more stressful than it was for me. > The first thing you see is a bunch of text telling you how to deal with > possible problems... I can see why, but not sure novice computer folks would > be as happy with that as they could be.
> 3) Once it did start its boot process it went into a bunch of "DOS" looking > text screens with a bright red background. Not sure that was the best > choice of color...
> 4) When it gets past that it shows little icons of what it is loading... > sort of like OS 9. :)
> 5) The mouse was smooth - very smooth. No complaints there! Did not play > with the options, but did not feel the need since it was set up by default > to be just right. Hmmm, did not test opening tabs in Firefox with my middle > mouse button. Presumably that worked, too, but I will test it later.
> 6) I like the date and time with the calendar... nice touch. I needed to > get shareware to do that on a Mac, it did not come with it. The time, > though, was incorrect. When I went to the ...um.. whatever they call the > control panel it was right there! Could not get them to match up... that is > odd!
> 7) Icons and window elements are somewhat clunky. The menus are flat and > the whole interface was sort of blah. I asked my wife what she thought of > the look and she said "It looks old". Maybe there are better skins and they > just used that one to save room? I sure hope so...
> 8) Windows are very Windows like... min, max, close... even the menu on the > left... not impressive to see them copy Windows like that.
> 9) To make changes I had to use my root password... but I had not set one > up! Did not see in my quick look in help or docs what the default is. > Guessed it on my third try (yeah, I am a freakin' genius, it is "ubuntu").
> 10) The help system does not have a search! What the heck! That is > silly...
> 11) It did not recognize, at least not that I could tell, that I had > inserted my thumb drive. Disappointing.
> 12) There are dual menus... they have a menu on the top sort of like the > Mac, but each window is like Windows. You can move and even remove the > "panels", which is what they call the Mac like menu area... and you can add > more of them if you like.
> 13) Played with applications... they took a while to launch, but, hey, they > are all on the CD. Hard to complain. Actually, considering that, they did > just fine. Have used OpenOffice before and use Firefox often. They seem > just as good in Linux as they do elsewhere.
> 14) Oh, man... forgot to play with save and print dialogs. Oh well... next > time.
> 15) Decided I had played enough and wanted to reboot. But how. Looked for > a bit and could not find the option. How odd. Decided to at least log > out.. and lo and behold the option came up... sort of like how Windows > combines all the reboot / shut down / log out type options. Not a huge deal > once you get used to it, but I do not see the logic.
> Just a few thoughts... I am sure I am leaving things out. Will play with it > more later.
If you decide to go for a hard drive install and roadtest a full Ubuntu rather than that which the limited live disk offers, check out the guide at http://ubuntuguide.org/
Snit poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
> I also recently pointed out a bug in folder creation on XP - one that is > likely not a big deal for any regular in CSMA or COLA, but one that could > slow down a new user - perhaps greatly:
> I find it funny that some of the XP supporters were not even able to > understand the bug. They just sunk to trolling and flaming...
Shame on you, Snit! Don't you know that Microsoft code is always smarter than the user! <guffaw>
When I installed XP SP2 recently, I found that it modified Word XP. I can no longer select the whole document, right click, and find an Update Fields entry (to update all references and table items). I can still do it to a single table of contents, so I do that, then I can select the whole document and select Edit/Redo.
It's nuts.
-- When was the last time you thought about Microsoft, except in frustration or anger? -- Michael S. Malone, Silicon Insider
Linønut wrote: > Snit poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
>> I also recently pointed out a bug in folder creation on XP - one >> that is likely not a big deal for any regular in CSMA or COLA, but >> one that could slow down a new user - perhaps greatly:
>> I find it funny that some of the XP supporters were not even able to >> understand the bug. They just sunk to trolling and flaming...
> Shame on you, Snit! Don't you know that Microsoft code is always > smarter than the user! <guffaw>
> When I installed XP SP2 recently, I found that it modified Word XP. > I can no longer select the whole document, right click, and find an > Update Fields entry (to update all references and table items). I > can still do it to a single table of contents, so I do that, then I > can select the whole document and select Edit/Redo.
> It's nuts.
I told you before how to take care of that, ingrate.
Execute a one-line VBA command: ActiveDocument.Fields.Update
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