I am a programmer, been doing stuff on PC since "whenever". I already have a Dell Laptop running win-xp, and things are fine.
However, my need is to have have a unix based system to work with. Needs include :
- a genuine unix like environment to work with - a reliable system in general. Windows have its own issues.
A rough example of what I intend to do on mac is - - program with perl, c, java etc.. - play along oracle and related stuff and experiment - general internet browsing and related usage
I have spoken to two colleagues, who happen to use windows-at-work- mac- at-home. They have told me very many "great" things about mac.
Here I am looking for opinions about what i intend to do and whether mac is any better a choice for that as against PC.
This news group (comp.sys.mac.advocacy) is full of Mac-hating assholes who only want to demean Mac users and cause disruptions. I'm afraid you've come to the wrong place for non-biased feedback.
In article <1181409119.904097.187...@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Raghav <sharma.raghven...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Guys,
> I am a programmer, been doing stuff on PC since "whenever". I already > have a Dell Laptop running win-xp, and things are fine.
> However, my need is to have have a unix based system to work with. > Needs include :
> - a genuine unix like environment to work with
Yup. Mac OS X has BSD under the hood. In fact, development of BSD has picked up again after a lull of a few years now that Apple has started using it. OS X has rearranged some directories to be more friendly to Mac users, but there are aliases for the ones you'll be looking for as a Unix user.
> - a reliable system in general. Windows have its own issues.
Yup. I have used Windows, Linux, and OS X professionally and at home. My preference is for Mac OS X.
> A rough example of what I intend to do on mac is - > - program with perl, c, java etc..
Yup. OS X comes with all the gnu developer tools as well as OS X application development tools.
> - play along oracle and related stuff and experiment
OS X comes with MySQL server, an open-source SQL server.
> - general internet browsing and related usage
Yup. OS X comes with all the stuff you need for that.
> I have spoken to two colleagues, who happen to use windows-at-work- > mac- > at-home. They have told me very many "great" things about mac.
> Here I am looking for opinions about what i intend to do and whether > mac is any better a choice for that as against PC.
If you get a PC, then your choices for operating systems are limited to Windows, Linux, and a few BSDs. If you get a Mac, then you get OS X (which is what Linux desktop distributions try to be) and you can run Linux and Windows.
If you're just poking around and experimenting, and you don't need a whole lot of speed, then get yourself an old G3 or G4 for a coupla hundred bucks. Make sure you get the OS CDs with it, or buy a set on eBay, and you're set.
Raghav <sharma.raghven...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Guys,
> I am a programmer, been doing stuff on PC since "whenever". I already > have a Dell Laptop running win-xp, and things are fine.
> However, my need is to have have a unix based system to work with. > Needs include :
> - a genuine unix like environment to work with > - a reliable system in general. Windows have its own issues.
> A rough example of what I intend to do on mac is - > - program with perl, c, java etc.. > - play along oracle and related stuff and experiment > - general internet browsing and related usage
> I have spoken to two colleagues, who happen to use windows-at-work- > mac- > at-home. They have told me very many "great" things about mac.
> Here I am looking for opinions about what i intend to do and whether > mac is any better a choice for that as against PC.
> Looking for helping tips...
> regards > raghav..
A Mac will let you do everything you want and will run Windows as well (just in case).
A Dell (or similar) will let your run Windows, but won't do what you want.
You decide.
-- Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
Inspite of the fact that Mac computers are way cool, they are not for everyone.
If you want to learn Dot Net, PowerShell programming, ASP, C#, Active Directory or MS-Office VBA then XP or Vista might be a better choice.
Also, if you're one of those 20 something wipper-snappers who grew up on Windows and love Eclipse or Visual Studio and your used to *not* using the command line, then Windows is "better".
OTOH, if you want to focus on Video Production, or Perl, Python, Ruby, ksh, or Oracle, or MySQL, or do something original with AppleScript - then the Mac is "better".
On Jun 9, 8:17 pm, "gimme_this_gimme_t...@yahoo.com"
<gimme_this_gimme_t...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Inspite of the fact that Mac computers are way cool, they are not for > everyone.
> If you want to learn Dot Net, PowerShell programming, ASP, C#, Active > Directory or MS-Office VBA then XP or Vista might be a better choice.
> Also, if you're one of those 20 something wipper-snappers who grew up > on Windows and love Eclipse or Visual Studio and your used to *not* > using the command line, then Windows is "better".
> OTOH, if you want to focus on Video Production, or Perl, Python, Ruby, > ksh, or Oracle, or MySQL, or do something original with AppleScript - > then the Mac is "better".
Hi Guys,
I have now heard views from quite a few people. In person as well as through discussion forums (including this one).
And I must say this, I did not find a single person who said a negative thing about macs. But then, isn't it a bit all too nice. Is it really the case that there is Nothing wrong with mac. Some small glitch, some issue.. or something that needs a tweak here or there ??
Well, I am just trying to see the flip side as well. If there are so many good things about mac, why is the world still using windows ? So, are there no negatives to it.. really ??
Considering the suggestion, buy a mac, if its fine, great. If it doesn't suit me, run windows using parallel. Sounds great really.
I plan to ask my colleagues to let me use it for a while (I would assume it to be in minutes, but then you can only know so much in such a limited time).
The world is still using Windows because most Windows users are doing their jobs and that's what their employers purchase for them. Most companies have a legacy investment in Windows software so it's not practical, or economical for them to switch.
Also, what is the point of an employer giving employees a computer that is FUN to use? You're there to work.
Some tens of thousands of employers and millions of users are using OS X. So if you go OS X it's not like you're alone.
As to hidden issues. It depends on what you're working on. Nothing stands out in the OS itself which is a dream to use. OTOH if you need Visual Studio to create an DOM application OS X isnt for you.
In article <1181415291.053145.179...@n4g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Raghav <sharma.raghven...@gmail.com> wrote: > I have now heard views from quite a few people. In person as well as > through discussion forums (including this one).
> And I must say this, I did not find a single person who said a > negative thing about macs. But then, isn't it a bit all too nice. Is > it really the case that there is Nothing wrong with mac. Some small > glitch, some issue.. or something that needs a tweak here or there ??
There are many things that could be better; or at least, different. There are also several issues that are related to what is offered for use on Mac OS. The key difference to understand is that Apple has always been in total control of what goes in -- and since they have many conscientious and intelligent and creative types there, that means some great stuff is done very well. But where tools have to be provided by third parties, some desirable ones have not been available in Mac OS.
> Well, I am just trying to see the flip side as well. If there are so > many good things about mac, why is the world still using windows ?
People don't make buying decisions based on full and informed knowledge. They choose the lowest-cost which seems to be able to do what they want. For years, that meant Windows. Once a purchase decision is made, they support their own decision (even if they don't know anything) because to do otherwise would mean showing how their own decision was foolish.
> So, are there no negatives to it.. really ??
Aside from the development ones above, it is different -- and different is always seen as risky. That also is a principle keeping Windows and other major apps common in the business world -- anyone wanting to choose a tool besides the common one has to justify it, personally.
> On Jun 9, 2:17 pm, "gimme_this_gimme_t...@yahoo.com" > <gimme_this_gimme_t...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> Inspite of the fact that Mac computers are way cool, they are not for >> everyone.
>> If you want to learn Dot Net, PowerShell programming, ASP, C#,
In article <1181417546.759599.320...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, "gimme_this_gimme_t...@yahoo.com" <gimme_this_gimme_t...@yahoo.com>
wrote: > The world is still using Windows because most Windows users are doing > their jobs and that's what their employers purchase for them. Most > companies have a legacy investment in Windows software so it's not > practical, or economical for them to switch.
The flaw here is unless they use a lot of speciality software that has no mac equivalent the cost of upgrading to a new version of windows and all the long out of date (at in 2 to three versions ago) software it just as high if not higher than going Mac.
> Also, what is the point of an employer giving employees a computer > that is FUN to use? You're there to work.
It is not so being fun to use but that it is easier to troubleshoot and the software on the large part is far better designed. The Gartner Studies have showed for nearly a decade that the Mac costs *less over all* than a comparative PC (though WIndows has been closing the gap each time the study is done). Sadly because too many businesses are in a three month cycle mode you hear more about initial cost rather than TCO
> Some tens of thousands of employers and millions of users are using > OS X. So if you go OS X it's not like you're alone.
> As to hidden issues. It depends on what you're working on. Nothing > stands out in the OS itself which is a dream to use. OTOH if you need > Visual Studio to create an DOM application OS X isnt for you.
Problem here is DOM is from the W3C <http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/0,2542,t=DOM&i=41676,00.asp> which Microsoft and others on the windows side have long ignored-about 90% of the problems with websites is due to poor to non existent use of W3C guidelines on HTML, scripting, and about everything else they put out (IE 'compatibility' shares most of the blame here). The remaining 10% is thanks to crappy or mind numbingly stupid design <http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/>
"ed" <n...@no-atwistedweb-spam.com> wrote: > "KDT" <scarface...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:1181442122.181119.71850@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com... > > On Jun 9, 2:17 pm, "gimme_this_gimme_t...@yahoo.com" > > <gimme_this_gimme_t...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Inspite of the fact that Mac computers are way cool, they are not for > >> everyone.
> >> If you want to learn Dot Net, PowerShell programming, ASP, C#,
> >>Active > >> Directory or MS-Office VBA then XP or Vista might be a better choice.
> > VBA? why would anyone choose to use VBA?
> because it's the right tool for some jobs, eh?
Since Microsoft itself is planing on replacing VBA with VSTA it must not be the right tool for *any* job-otherwise Microsoft wouldn't be replacing it now would they? (This is where such simplistic thinking as above leads you and yes is is dumb)
> The flaw here is unless they use a lot of speciality software that has no > mac equivalent the cost of upgrading to a new version of windows and all > the long out of date (at in 2 to three versions ago) software it just as > high if not higher than going Mac.
For something like a Dr. or Dentist office, or a small financial trading company I agree with you.
OTOH, no. You may not be familiar with the latest killer software from the evil empire, but nothing in the Mac or Linux or Sun world compares to Sharepoint/ReportServer. For enterprise companies where you have business anaylsts responsible for the administration of dozens of web sites, there's nothing there.
Oh yeah, there's Vignette the start of the art UNIX portal solution. And BEA they have a portal solution too. Sorry, they aren't there yet. Even if they were, it gets back to the marketshare issue. If only a few people know BEA portal, how many developers are going to want to spend their careers supporting it?
Another example:
There isn't a spreadsheet in the UNIX world that has the equivalent to VBA. There is no there there.
> It is not so being fun to use but that it is easier to troubleshoot and the > software on the large part is far better designed. The Gartner Studies > have showed for nearly a decade that the Mac costs *less over all* than a > comparative PC (though WIndows has been closing the gap each time the study > is done). Sadly because too many businesses are in a three month cycle > mode you hear more about initial cost rather than TCO.
It sounds like you love saying that. But it isn't true.
For starters, Enterprise companies have a lot of money and they are willing to waste money of that means getting the job done. That's it *get the job done*. One, two million dollars? What's the difference. If the job gets done and they rake in 30 million what's an extra half a mill?
Nobody cares about a some Red Hat paid for Gartner study except Gartner and some Sun or Linux marketing executives.
(Gartner thinks Apple should license OS X to Dell - so they are obviously wrong at least some of the time. How ridiculous is that?)
The only thing that matters is what's going on at a company right now.
And if you're a former Sun executive and you say "OK Everyone we're going to stop using XP and we're going to use OS X from now on".... Well you might be looking for a new job in a few months.
It isn't M$, it isn't blind acceptance. It's the way it is. Thousands of people just wanting to do their jobs like they're used to doing them - only better. Job knows that, that's why he moved on to iPods.
Who says VBA is *necessarily* going away? I understand the replacement will be to allow you to use VB, or C#, or dot net language.
BTW, VBA isn't the tool for every job. VBA has problems reading Active Directory stuctures. But you can do the real work in C# and leave the presentation to Excel or Excel like reporting tools.
> In article <DmKai.17020$C96.2...@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>, > "ed" <n...@no-atwistedweb-spam.com> wrote:
>> "KDT" <scarface...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> news:1181442122.181119.71850@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com... >> > On Jun 9, 2:17 pm, "gimme_this_gimme_t...@yahoo.com" >> > <gimme_this_gimme_t...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> Inspite of the fact that Mac computers are way cool, they are not for >> >> everyone.
>> >> If you want to learn Dot Net, PowerShell programming, ASP, C#,
>> >>Active >> >> Directory or MS-Office VBA then XP or Vista might be a better choice.
>> > VBA? why would anyone choose to use VBA?
>> because it's the right tool for some jobs, eh?
> Since Microsoft itself is planing on replacing VBA with VSTA it must not > be > the right tool for *any* job-otherwise Microsoft wouldn't be replacing it > now would they? (This is where such simplistic thinking as above leads you > and yes is is dumb)
execpt your assumption is wrong- there's been no announced plans to sunset vba- vsta and vba live together peacefully, and can be integrated in the same apps.
Raghav <sharma.raghven...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Jun 9, 8:17 pm, "gimme_this_gimme_t...@yahoo.com" > <gimme_this_gimme_t...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Inspite of the fact that Mac computers are way cool, they are not for > > everyone.
> > If you want to learn Dot Net, PowerShell programming, ASP, C#, Active > > Directory or MS-Office VBA then XP or Vista might be a better choice.
> > Also, if you're one of those 20 something wipper-snappers who grew up > > on Windows and love Eclipse or Visual Studio and your used to *not* > > using the command line, then Windows is "better".
> > OTOH, if you want to focus on Video Production, or Perl, Python, Ruby, > > ksh, or Oracle, or MySQL, or do something original with AppleScript - > > then the Mac is "better".
> Hi Guys,
> I have now heard views from quite a few people. In person as well as > through discussion forums (including this one).
> And I must say this, I did not find a single person who said a > negative thing about macs.
Oh, give the trolls here a little time to spool up. They'll say everything un-nice that you might imagine, and then some.
It will mostly be untrue, but what do you expect for free? :}
In article <1181415291.053145.179...@n4g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Raghav <sharma.raghven...@gmail.com> wrote: > And I must say this, I did not find a single person who said a > negative thing about macs.
Guess you haven't heard from the wintrolls yet.. ;)
> But then, isn't it a bit all too nice. Is > it really the case that there is Nothing wrong with mac. Some small > glitch, some issue.. or something that needs a tweak here or there ??
There are plenty of glitches and issues with the mac. But they're all minor stuff I couldn't even be bothered to remember at the moment. Just keep in mind that the people who work at Apple are mortals and make mistakes like the rest of us.
> Well, I am just trying to see the flip side as well. If there are so > many good things about mac, why is the world still using windows ?
That's because 1) MS inherited IBM's monopoly instead of creating heir own and 2) marketing. Also, Apple has made a few dumb moves in the past.
> So, > are there no negatives to it.. really ??
Well, if you're a hard-core gamer then you might want to stick with Windows. Not that there aren't games on the mac, it's just that there aren't as many as on Windows, and they're usually ported later.
However, there is one thing you need to keep in mind if/when you start using a mac:
OS X is not Windows. If you try to use OS X as if it was Windows, you'll end up being confused and annoyed. The first step of switching to OS X is to forget everything you know about Windows. Some of the differences are cosmetic and irrelevant. Others are profound.
Or so I gather by reading the comments from others who've gone from Windows to OS X.
> Considering the suggestion, buy a mac, if its fine, great. If it > doesn't suit me, run windows using parallel. Sounds great really.
>>> "KDT" <scarface...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>> news:1181442122.181119.71850@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com... >>>> On Jun 9, 2:17 pm, "gimme_this_gimme_t...@yahoo.com" >>>> <gimme_this_gimme_t...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>> Inspite of the fact that Mac computers are way cool, they are not for >>>>> everyone.
>>>>> If you want to learn Dot Net, PowerShell programming, ASP, C#,
>>>>> Active >>>>> Directory or MS-Office VBA then XP or Vista might be a better choice.
>>>> VBA? why would anyone choose to use VBA?
>>> because it's the right tool for some jobs, eh?
>> Since Microsoft itself is planing on replacing VBA with VSTA it must not >> be >> the right tool for *any* job-otherwise Microsoft wouldn't be replacing it >> now would they? (This is where such simplistic thinking as above leads you >> and yes is is dumb)
> execpt your assumption is wrong- there's been no announced plans to sunset > vba- vsta and vba live together peacefully, and can be integrated in the > same apps.
VBA has been called the "predecessor" of VBSA... and comments have been made that it is understandable that people might not want to jump to VBSA immediately... implying that VBA just may be on its way out, but not for a while.
-- € OS X is partially based on BSD (esp. FreeBSD) € OS X users are at far less risk of malware then are XP users € Photoshop is an image editing application
>>>> "KDT" <scarface...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>>> news:1181442122.181119.71850@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com... >>>>> On Jun 9, 2:17 pm, "gimme_this_gimme_t...@yahoo.com" >>>>> <gimme_this_gimme_t...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>> Inspite of the fact that Mac computers are way cool, they are not for >>>>>> everyone.
>>>>>> If you want to learn Dot Net, PowerShell programming, ASP, C#,
>>>>>> Active >>>>>> Directory or MS-Office VBA then XP or Vista might be a better choice.
>>>>> VBA? why would anyone choose to use VBA?
>>>> because it's the right tool for some jobs, eh?
>>> Since Microsoft itself is planing on replacing VBA with VSTA it must not >>> be >>> the right tool for *any* job-otherwise Microsoft wouldn't be replacing >>> it >>> now would they? (This is where such simplistic thinking as above leads >>> you >>> and yes is is dumb)
>> execpt your assumption is wrong- there's been no announced plans to >> sunset >> vba- vsta and vba live together peacefully, and can be integrated in the >> same apps.
> VBA has been called the "predecessor" of VBSA...
largely irrelevant, eh? the og plan was that vsta was going to replace vba, but that's not currently the case.
> and comments have been made > that it is understandable that people might not want to jump to VBSA > immediately... implying that VBA just may be on its way out, but not for a > while.
microsoft has specifically said there are currently no plans to sunset vba (on windows) in the foreseeable future.
> >>>> "KDT" <scarface...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > >>>>news:1181442122.181119.71850@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com... > >>>>> On Jun 9, 2:17 pm, "gimme_this_gimme_t...@yahoo.com" > >>>>> <gimme_this_gimme_t...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>>>>> Inspite of the fact that Mac computers are way cool, they are not for > >>>>>> everyone.
> >>>>>> If you want to learn Dot Net, PowerShell programming, ASP, C#,
> >>>>>> Active > >>>>>> Directory or MS-Office VBA then XP or Vista might be a better choice.
> >>>>> VBA? why would anyone choose to use VBA?
> >>>> because it's the right tool for some jobs, eh?
> >>> Since Microsoft itself is planing on replacing VBA with VSTA it must not > >>> be > >>> the right tool for *any* job-otherwise Microsoft wouldn't be replacing > >>> it > >>> now would they? (This is where such simplistic thinking as above leads > >>> you > >>> and yes is is dumb)
> >> execpt your assumption is wrong- there's been no announced plans to > >> sunset > >> vba- vsta and vba live together peacefully, and can be integrated in the > >> same apps.
> > VBA has been called the "predecessor" of VBSA...
> largely irrelevant, eh? the og plan was that vsta was going to replace vba, > but that's not currently the case.
> > and comments have been made > > that it is understandable that people might not want to jump to VBSA > > immediately... implying that VBA just may be on its way out, but not for a > > while.
> microsoft has specifically said there are currently no plans to sunset vba > (on windows) in the foreseeable future.
Hi All,
Not that I dont like the thoughts flowing, I just thought I should stick to my original question about the buying decision. Thanks to all of you, now I know a bit more about apple and its own world then windows.
Just to mention, I am not a hardcore MS technology programmer/ developer anyway. My core area is going to be Oracle and some tools surrounding it. Which, AFAIK, are either open-source or are ported by the vendor already, and therefore are available to Mac as much as to any other OS.
Honestly speaking, I dont really have anything negative about windows, well, may be some, but not the "hatred" kind of thing. However, I LOVE Unix and its flavours. I have already been doing experiments with diff flavors of Linux on one partition of my Dell here. But, now I feel that those arrangements are limiting in many ways and therefore want a dedicated box to help me.
And, once I came to know that Mac OS X is FreeBSD based, I immediately fired up these questions to my colleagues and to forums like this one here.
For the thoughts mentioned by some of you, I am not really a gamer (hardly played any games), or any serious stuff to do with active directory etc. However, after reading your posts, my belief about the fact that apple is really not catering to enterprises has gone one step ahead. OTOH, now I believe more and more that its more a computer for individual rather than for a corporate. ..My view.
Thanks to all for your views and thoughts, please keep flowing.
regards raghav..
PS: I have just been doing some calculation going from that, the latest MacBookPro is going to cost me in the range of 3000 CHF (Yeah, I am in Switzerland), with the following config 2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB 065-7020 SuperDrive 8x (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW) 065-7025 Apple USB Modem 065-7027 Hintergrundbeleuchtete Tastatur (US) & Mac OS (Englisch, international) LL065-7034 MacBook Pro 15" Breitformat-Bildschirm mit Hochglanzanzeige 065-7038 Landesspezifisches Kit 065-7036 160GB Serial ATA-Laufwerk (5400U/Min.) 065-7023 2,2 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 065-7017
I have seen the posts about Mac prices now being comparable to PC, but somehow my calculations are going way above my expectations... :(
Raghav wrote: > I am a programmer, been doing stuff on PC since "whenever". I already > have a Dell Laptop running win-xp, and things are fine.
> However, my need is to have have a unix based system to work with. > Needs include :
> - a genuine unix like environment to work with > - a reliable system in general. Windows have its own issues.
Why don't you just install a Linux distro? No need to buy new hardware. No need to buy prebuilt machines. Better compatibility. Benefit from primary releases of all Linux software rather than OSX ports...
On Jun 10, 11:57 am, Jon Harrop <j...@ffconsultancy.com> wrote:
> Raghav wrote: > > I am a programmer, been doing stuff on PC since "whenever". I already > > have a Dell Laptop running win-xp, and things are fine.
> > However, my need is to have have a unix based system to work with. > > Needs include :
> > - a genuine unix like environment to work with > > - a reliable system in general. Windows have its own issues.
> Why don't you just install a Linux distro? No need to buy new hardware. No > need to buy prebuilt machines. Better compatibility. Benefit from primary > releases of all Linux software rather than OSX ports...
To be really honest with you (or others who have suggested the same), I dont really have the bandwidth. My current laptop has a 40GB HDD and I am not yet hooked up to huge external hard-disks. Also, I am short on storage space.
It has a P4 of which I have come to be "sick of". Really, there are many things which prompt me to go for another set of hardware.
Moreover, I have already had some experiments with Linux flavours on a partition.
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