Senate probe Microsoft HP dodge billions in taxes

[Justin]

Its OK when they do it, but not Apple.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162-57517380/senate-probe-microsoft-hp-
dodge-billions-in-taxes/

"Microsoft used "aggressive" transactions to shift assets to subsidiaries
in Puerto Rico, Ireland and Singapore, in part to avoid taxes, said the
report by the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations. In one
example, the report said that the Washington state-based software giant
saved $4.5 billion in taxes from 2009 to 2011 by shifting assets to Puerto
Rico, a U.S. commonwealth that offers numerous tax breaks to businesses."

[Snit]

On 5/21/13 7:52 AM, in article pan.2013.05...@hatespam.edu,

The tax system itself is broken. Do not blame the corporations which use
legal means to avoid taxes, blame the system.

Of course, the corporations do help to build these systems with too much
control... and that is a problem.


--
"But I have never, ever even run a Linux server and I don't even want
to; it's not what I'm interested in. I'm more of a desktop guy."
-- Linus Torvalds

[Justin]

On Tue, 21 May 2013 08:49:46 -0700, Snit wrote:

> On 5/21/13 7:52 AM, in article pan.2013.05...@hatespam.edu,
> "Justin" <justinthe...@hatespam.edu> wrote:
>
>> Its OK when they do it, but not Apple.
>>
>> http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162-57517380/senate-probe-microsoft-
hp-
>> dodge-billions-in-taxes/
>>
>> "Microsoft used "aggressive" transactions to shift assets to
>> subsidiaries in Puerto Rico, Ireland and Singapore, in part to avoid
>> taxes, said the report by the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on
>> Investigations. In one example, the report said that the Washington
>> state-based software giant saved $4.5 billion in taxes from 2009 to
>> 2011 by shifting assets to Puerto Rico, a U.S. commonwealth that offers
>> numerous tax breaks to businesses."
>
> The tax system itself is broken. Do not blame the corporations which use
> legal means to avoid taxes, blame the system.
>
> Of course, the corporations do help to build these systems with too much
> control... and that is a problem.

Correct, I'm an accountant so I'm familiar with most of the loopholes.
Corporate taxes tend to be geared towards the local and state level in the
US. The reason for that is so local and state governments can entice
corporations to move into their area. Sometimes companies make a deal
with the local government - that'll alloy the company to pay a lower rate
for a few years just to get them to move into the area. Companies like
Wal-mart abuse this little trick. That'll work out a deal, when the deal
is over, move over one municipality and do the same thing.

[Snit]

On 5/21/13 2:55 PM, in article pan.2013.05...@hatespam.edu,

"Justin" <justinthe...@hatespam.edu> wrote:

> On Tue, 21 May 2013 08:49:46 -0700, Snit wrote:
>
>> On 5/21/13 7:52 AM, in article pan.2013.05...@hatespam.edu,
>> "Justin" <justinthe...@hatespam.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Its OK when they do it, but not Apple.
>>>
>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162-57517380/senate-probe-microsoft- hp-
>>> dodge-billions-in-taxes/
>>>
>>> "Microsoft used "aggressive" transactions to shift assets to subsidiaries in
>>> Puerto Rico, Ireland and Singapore, in part to avoid taxes, said the report
>>> by the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations. In one example, the
>>> report said that the Washington state-based software giant saved $4.5
>>> billion in taxes from 2009 to 2011 by shifting assets to Puerto Rico, a U.S.
>>> commonwealth that offers numerous tax breaks to businesses."
>>
>> The tax system itself is broken. Do not blame the corporations which use
>> legal means to avoid taxes, blame the system.
>>
>> Of course, the corporations do help to build these systems with too much
>> control... and that is a problem.
>
> Correct, I'm an accountant so I'm familiar with most of the loopholes.

I worked for Intuit and supported tax products, but that was mostly for
individuals and small businesses and even then I was a *tech* expert, not a
tax expert. I am sure your knowledge here is far greater than mine (or if
not I would feel really bad for you and your clients!)

> Corporate taxes tend to be geared towards the local and state level in the
> US. The reason for that is so local and state governments can entice
> corporations to move into their area. Sometimes companies make a deal
> with the local government - that'll alloy the company to pay a lower rate
> for a few years just to get them to move into the area. Companies like
> Wal-mart abuse this little trick. That'll work out a deal, when the deal
> is over, move over one municipality and do the same thing.

Yes. Where I live they closed one store and opened another a mile or so
away... there was no good reason for it as far as I could tell other than
tax breaks.

--
"It is absurd to punish anyone for having sex with someone of age 15 � it is
normal for Americans of age 15 to have sex." -- Richard Stallman

[ed]

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 2:55:56 PM UTC-7, Justin wrote:
> On Tue, 21 May 2013 08:49:46 -0700, Snit wrote:

...

> Correct, I'm an accountant so I'm familiar with most of the loopholes.
> Corporate taxes tend to be geared towards the local and state level in the
> US. The reason for that is so local and state governments can entice
> corporations to move into their area. Sometimes companies make a deal
> with the local government - that'll alloy the company to pay a lower rate
> for a few years just to get them to move into the area. Companies like
> Wal-mart abuse this little trick. That'll work out a deal, when the deal
> is over, move over one municipality and do the same thing.

can you show any evidence of your assertion that wal-mart often moves over one municipality for tax purposes?

[Justin]

Indeed.
I almost went to work for the IRS last year. They offered to pay for CPA
classes, materials, time off to study - but I had to sign a contract that
said I would stay with them for five years. The interesting thing, when I
was touring the building in DC, about 50% of the people were using MacBook
pro's, including two agents. IRS agents have the same rank and power as
FBI agents, some even carry weapons and conduct arrests.

http://www.accountingweb.com/topic/tax/armed-and-dangerous-sharp-shooting-
irs-agent-guns-down-would-be-robber

>
>> Corporate taxes tend to be geared towards the local and state level in
>> the US. The reason for that is so local and state governments can
>> entice corporations to move into their area. Sometimes companies make
>> a deal with the local government - that'll alloy the company to pay a
>> lower rate for a few years just to get them to move into the area.
>> Companies like Wal-mart abuse this little trick. That'll work out a
>> deal, when the deal is over, move over one municipality and do the same
>> thing.
>
> Yes. Where I live they closed one store and opened another a mile or so
> away... there was no good reason for it as far as I could tell other
> than tax breaks.

Look on a zoning map, there's probably a border between the two.
South of me they did it. The Facility they left is vacant five years
later. Local PD is always kicking vagrants, whores and other nasties out
of there.

[Snit]

On 5/21/13 3:29 PM, in article pan.2013.05...@hatespam.edu,
"Justin" <justinthe...@hatespam.edu> wrote:

...

>>>> The tax system itself is broken. Do not blame the corporations which use
>>>> legal means to avoid taxes, blame the system.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, the corporations do help to build these systems with too much
>>>> control... and that is a problem.
>>>>
>>> Correct, I'm an accountant so I'm familiar with most of the loopholes.
>>>
>> I worked for Intuit and supported tax products, but that was mostly for
>> individuals and small businesses and even then I was a *tech* expert, not a
>> tax expert. I am sure your knowledge here is far greater than mine (or if not
>> I would feel really bad for you and your clients!)
>
> Indeed.
> I almost went to work for the IRS last year. They offered to pay for CPA
> classes, materials, time off to study - but I had to sign a contract that
> said I would stay with them for five years. The interesting thing, when I
> was touring the building in DC, about 50% of the people were using MacBook
> pro's, including two agents.

Interesting. Did you see anyone using Linux by any chance?

> IRS agents have the same rank and power as FBI agents, some even carry weapons
> and conduct arrests.
>
> http://www.accountingweb.com/topic/tax/armed-and-dangerous-sharp-shooting-
> irs-agent-guns-down-would-be-robber

That is a bit scary, to say the least.

>>> Corporate taxes tend to be geared towards the local and state level in
>>> the US. The reason for that is so local and state governments can
>>> entice corporations to move into their area. Sometimes companies make
>>> a deal with the local government - that'll alloy the company to pay a
>>> lower rate for a few years just to get them to move into the area.
>>> Companies like Wal-mart abuse this little trick. That'll work out a
>>> deal, when the deal is over, move over one municipality and do the same
>>> thing.
>>
>> Yes. Where I live they closed one store and opened another a mile or so
>> away... there was no good reason for it as far as I could tell other
>> than tax breaks.
>
> Look on a zoning map, there's probably a border between the two.

Yes: one is on an Indian land; the other is not. Interesting that Wal-Mart
would move *away* from the Indian land.

> South of me they did it. The Facility they left is vacant five years
> later.

It has been years and the old shopping center is pretty much dead. The
Indian tribe has recently started working on trying to revitalize it. I hope
they do.

> Local PD is always kicking vagrants, whores and other nasties out
> of there.

Have not seen that here, but there is little left of that shopping area, at
least on that side of it. A way down the strip mall there is still a Home
Depot, Target, and some other stores that seem to do fairly well.


--
"Necrophilia would be my second choice for what should be done with my
corpse, the first being scientific or medical use." -- Richard Stallman

[Justin]

On Tue, 21 May 2013 15:45:44 -0700, Snit wrote:

>
> Interesting. Did you see anyone using Linux by any chance?

Of course not.

>
>> IRS agents have the same rank and power as FBI agents, some even carry
>> weapons and conduct arrests.
>>
>> http://www.accountingweb.com/topic/tax/armed-and-dangerous-sharp-
shooting-
>> irs-agent-guns-down-would-be-robber
>
> That is a bit scary, to say the least.

Quite.
Money talks, bullshit walks. You want to know what somebody is doing?
See what they're spending and where.

>>>
>>> Yes. Where I live they closed one store and opened another a mile or
>>> so away... there was no good reason for it as far as I could tell
>>> other than tax breaks.
>>
>> Look on a zoning map, there's probably a border between the two.
>
> Yes: one is on an Indian land; the other is not. Interesting that
> Wal-Mart would move *away* from the Indian land.

Simple, the tribe saw how much they were making and wanted a piece of the
action. The problem is, they're running out of places. There has to be a
building already there, since building one on their own, doesn't outweigh
the tax incentives they can negotiate. Now everyone knows their MO and
won't negotiate. Apparently your Chief Running Bear didn't watch
Bloomberg. Or in our case, conned a reality company into building a
facility. That company is now defunct - although he was a jerkoff too.
The owner & founder is a multi millionaire and I shit you not, was caught
stealing propane gas from a farm near his home. The farmer set up a
hidden IR cam, caught the guy filling up five tanks, gave the footage to
police, police did their own sting and that was it. Its actually pretty
easy to start a company run it for a few years and end up a millionaire,
as long as you don't care how long the company lasts.

>
>> South of me they did it. The Facility they left is vacant five years
>> later.
>
> It has been years and the old shopping center is pretty much dead. The
> Indian tribe has recently started working on trying to revitalize it. I
> hope they do.

Probably too late.

>
>> Local PD is always kicking vagrants, whores and other nasties out of
>> there.
>
> Have not seen that here, but there is little left of that shopping area,
> at least on that side of it. A way down the strip mall there is still a
> Home Depot, Target, and some other stores that seem to do fairly well.

I'm close enough to a major city that busses run to and from there, so
after smoking the crackpipe and mugging somebody, they pay for a bus pass
and end up in the warehouse.

[Snit]

On 5/21/13 3:59 PM, in article pan.2013.05...@hatespam.edu,

"Justin" <justinthe...@hatespam.edu> wrote:

> On Tue, 21 May 2013 15:45:44 -0700, Snit wrote:
>
>>
>> Interesting. Did you see anyone using Linux by any chance?
>
> Of course not.

I would have been surprised - but pleasantly so. And this is being posted to
COLA as well as CSMA so I thought it would be worth noting if Linux was
being used.

>>> IRS agents have the same rank and power as FBI agents, some even carry
>>> weapons and conduct arrests.
>>>
>>> http://www.accountingweb.com/topic/tax/armed-and-dangerous-sharp- shooting-
>>> irs-agent-guns-down-would-be-robber
>>
>> That is a bit scary, to say the least.
>
> Quite.
> Money talks, bullshit walks. You want to know what somebody is doing?
> See what they're spending and where.

Yup. While perhaps a slight simplification of things, there is a whole lot
of truth to that.

>>>> Yes. Where I live they closed one store and opened another a mile or
>>>> so away... there was no good reason for it as far as I could tell
>>>> other than tax breaks.
>>>
>>> Look on a zoning map, there's probably a border between the two.
>>
>> Yes: one is on an Indian land; the other is not. Interesting that
>> Wal-Mart would move *away* from the Indian land.
>
> Simple, the tribe saw how much they were making and wanted a piece of the
> action.

Perhaps. Local rumor is the tribe is looking to add another casino there -
though they have two within about a mile of the location so I question that.

> The problem is, they're running out of places. There has to be a building
> already there, since building one on their own, doesn't outweigh the tax
> incentives they can negotiate. Now everyone knows their MO and won't
> negotiate. Apparently your Chief Running Bear didn't watch Bloomberg. Or in
> our case, conned a reality company into building a facility. That company is
> now defunct - although he was a jerkoff too. The owner & founder is a multi
> millionaire and I shit you not, was caught stealing propane gas from a farm
> near his home. The farmer set up a hidden IR cam, caught the guy filling up
> five tanks, gave the footage to police, police did their own sting and that
> was it. Its actually pretty easy to start a company run it for a few years
> and end up a millionaire, as long as you don't care how long the company
> lasts.

And have the capital to get it going.

>>> South of me they did it. The Facility they left is vacant five years
>>> later.
>>
>> It has been years and the old shopping center is pretty much dead. The
>> Indian tribe has recently started working on trying to revitalize it. I
>> hope they do.
>
> Probably too late.

I fear that is correct - but the roads were heavily re-done in the area and
that changed traffic patterns. The tribe created their own road to bypass
the other routes and make a better one - that happens to take you right to
that strip mall. Clearly they have *some* plans for it or they would not be
putting that much money into it. And their bypass road has room for lots of
offices and the like, some of which are already being built.

>>> Local PD is always kicking vagrants, whores and other nasties out of
>>> there.
>>
>> Have not seen that here, but there is little left of that shopping area,
>> at least on that side of it. A way down the strip mall there is still a
>> Home Depot, Target, and some other stores that seem to do fairly well.
>
> I'm close enough to a major city that busses run to and from there, so
> after smoking the crackpipe and mugging somebody, they pay for a bus pass
> and end up in the warehouse.

I am in a *relatively* small town (or quad-city area)... though it is also a
major meth area... lots of open space for hidden labs.


--
"On desktops, Linux has had a hard time cracking the 1 per cent mark,
although some of the web analytics companies now put it at around 1.5 per
cent." -- Linus Torvalds

[Flint]

Perhaps not Wal-Mart per se, as the cost for the corporation to build
their new supercenters every few years kind would hit a point of
diminishing returns rther quickly, but I have seen the tactic used
repeatedly by other more local/regional scale outfits.

--
MFB

[Snit]

On 5/22/13 10:46 AM, in article knj01d$jst$1...@dont-email.me, "Flint"

I cannot say for certain if it was for tax purposes or not (that that was
the rumor and they apparently did get huge tax breaks when they moved), but
I do know that near me Walmart closed in one location and opened up in
another - they were 2 miles apart and the taxes are handled differently (one
is in the Yavapai-Apache Nation, the other is not). Here is where they
moved: <http://goo.gl/maps/UGtzB> (from A to B).


--
"The Underground Marshmallow People do exist ..." -- Mark Bilk

[OK, just having a little fun with this quote]

[ed]

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 11:30:50 AM UTC-7, Snit wrote:
...

> I cannot say for certain if it was for tax purposes or not (that that was
> the rumor and they apparently did get huge tax breaks when they moved), but
> I do know that near me Walmart closed in one location and opened up in
> another - they were 2 miles apart and the taxes are handled differently (one
> is in the Yavapai-Apache Nation, the other is not). Here is where they
> moved: <http://goo.gl/maps/UGtzB> (from A to B).

some quick googling suggests that walmart wanted to be located in prescott initially, but couldn't get approval, so they were leasing a location in frontier village. when an opportunity came along to be where they wanted to be all along (along with tax breaks), it's not a surprise they moved...

[Justin]

If I were more brave, I would go to the former wal-mart location they
abandoned and take a few pics. However, I didn't get around to renewing
my concealed carry permit, and I'm not going near that building without my
92S.

[Justin]

On Tue, 21 May 2013 16:25:21 -0700, Snit wrote:

> On 5/21/13 3:59 PM, in article pan.2013.05...@hatespam.edu,
> "Justin" <justinthe...@hatespam.edu> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 21 May 2013 15:45:44 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Interesting. Did you see anyone using Linux by any chance?
>>
>> Of course not.
>
> I would have been surprised - but pleasantly so. And this is being
> posted to COLA as well as CSMA so I thought it would be worth noting if
> Linux was being used.

Yeah, IMO Linux has alot of potential - the only thing keeping it out of
the mainstream is the mass Balkanization. How many distros are there?
Too many. Every major securities exchange in the world dumped SQL for
Linux. That says something.

>> Quite.
>> Money talks, bullshit walks. You want to know what somebody is doing?
>> See what they're spending and where.
>
> Yup. While perhaps a slight simplification of things, there is a whole
> lot of truth to that.

>>> Yes: one is on an Indian land; the other is not. Interesting that
>>> Wal-Mart would move *away* from the Indian land.
>>
>> Simple, the tribe saw how much they were making and wanted a piece of
>> the action.
>
> Perhaps. Local rumor is the tribe is looking to add another casino there
> - though they have two within about a mile of the location so I question
> that.

Unfortunately most North American Indian tribes seem to smoke their damn
pipes before making decisions. Hence most end up broke.

>
> And have the capital to get it going.

No, they sell the company before its obvious that its shit.

>> I'm close enough to a major city that busses run to and from there, so
>> after smoking the crackpipe and mugging somebody, they pay for a bus
>> pass and end up in the warehouse.
>
> I am in a *relatively* small town (or quad-city area)... though it is
> also a major meth area... lots of open space for hidden labs.

Police around here know who their bread & butter is. They do a pretty
good job keeping the riff-raff out. Lots of accusations of racism, but
somehow the local gov keeps it out of the courts. Unfamiliar cars are
consistently followed, some are pulled over. In appreciation for their
efforts the community got together and bought every officer a vest, which
were presented on Christmas Day in 2007.

[Snit]

On 5/22/13 3:57 PM, in article pan.2013.05...@hatespam.edu,

"Justin" <justinthe...@hatespam.edu> wrote:

> On Tue, 21 May 2013 16:25:21 -0700, Snit wrote:
>
>> On 5/21/13 3:59 PM, in article pan.2013.05...@hatespam.edu,
>> "Justin" <justinthe...@hatespam.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 21 May 2013 15:45:44 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Interesting. Did you see anyone using Linux by any chance?
>>>
>>> Of course not.
>>
>> I would have been surprised - but pleasantly so. And this is being
>> posted to COLA as well as CSMA so I thought it would be worth noting if
>> Linux was being used.
>
> Yeah, IMO Linux has alot of potential - the only thing keeping it out of
> the mainstream is the mass Balkanization. How many distros are there?
> Too many. Every major securities exchange in the world dumped SQL for
> Linux. That says something.

Linux is amazing. No doubt. Absolutely amazing. I use it for all of my web
server needs and suggest it to others for their web server and many other
server needs. It is excellent for embedded devices. It is great for portable
devices, even if the products built with it (mostly Android) do not earn
quite as high user satisfaction ratings as iOS products.

Even on the desktop there are times when it can be the best choice, mostly
when you have old hardware and do not want to spend money to upgrade to
newer hardware or do not have a license to Windows, but also times when you
are using a specific and fairly small set of applications, use mostly
command line applications, etc. So even on the desktop it certainly has a
place.

But it also has some major limitations for the desktop: largely tied to its
level of support for hardware, the software available for the platform, user
interface issues, and support.

Its hardware support is very broad, but it all too often will not work with
the newest hardware and even with older hardware its support might be
lacking - such as not supporting all features of a printer or all-in-one
device. Too often people need Photoshop or MS Office or Camtasia /
Screenflow or other professional level applications or niche applications
designed to help manage a school or dentist office or the like. While in
some cases there are "substitutes" they are still behind the "big guys" (say
LibreOffice compared to MS Office or GIMP compared to Photoshop). In other
case there just is no choice at all on Linux (there is nothing like Camtasia
or ScreenFlow... or any of the many, many niche products for different types
of businesses).

With the UI, there is no good way to make a full-features system with a
unified UI... you end up with a mix of KDE and Gnome and other. Even the
most basic of things such as general terminology is inconsistent (Quit vs.
Exit, Settings vs. Preferences, etc.). Common menu items are scattered,
common hot keys are inconsistent. Common dialogs such as Save and Print are
very different from program to program.

This has improved over the years - and will continue to, but it is still a
pretty major issue for the open source community.

And support: you buy a Dell with Windows and you run into problems - call
Dell. By a Mac with OS X and run into problems - call Apple. Install Ubuntu
on your machine... and hope you can find someone in some forum willing to
help you and not blame you for being an ignorant user.

>>> Quite. Money talks, bullshit walks. You want to know what somebody is
>>> doing? See what they're spending and where.
>>>
>> Yup. While perhaps a slight simplification of things, there is a whole lot of
>> truth to that.
>>
>>>> Yes: one is on an Indian land; the other is not. Interesting that Wal-Mart
>>>> would move *away* from the Indian land.
>>>>
>>> Simple, the tribe saw how much they were making and wanted a piece of the
>>> action.
>>>
>> Perhaps. Local rumor is the tribe is looking to add another casino there -
>> though they have two within about a mile of the location so I question that.
>
> Unfortunately most North American Indian tribes seem to smoke their damn
> pipes before making decisions. Hence most end up broke.

Just saw today they are going to be re-vitalizing and re-opening an old
theater that used to be there. Good. The only other theater in the area is a
town over (really not that far, but still, I think it will do well if they
can properly update the place - it is quite outdated).

>> And have the capital to get it going.
>
> No, they sell the company before its obvious that its shit.

I meant the capital to get a business going in the first place. For most
businesses it is not cheap to do so (though it depends on the business).

>>> I'm close enough to a major city that busses run to and from there, so
>>> after smoking the crackpipe and mugging somebody, they pay for a bus
>>> pass and end up in the warehouse.
>>
>> I am in a *relatively* small town (or quad-city area)... though it is
>> also a major meth area... lots of open space for hidden labs.
>
> Police around here know who their bread & butter is. They do a pretty
> good job keeping the riff-raff out. Lots of accusations of racism, but
> somehow the local gov keeps it out of the courts. Unfamiliar cars are
> consistently followed, some are pulled over.

I used to live in Las Vegas and drive an old beat up car. I did tech work
and would often go to the "good" neighborhoods. When I did I was often
followed and sometimes pulled over (about once a month on average for a
couple years). A number of time they did illegal searches of my car,
sometimes even tossing my belongings on the street.

The police in Las Vegas, though, are very corrupt. I have little experience
with the LA police but from people I know who have worked with both they say
the Vegas police is much worse (or was, I moved in the mid 1990s).

I have not had a problem with the police since in any city I have lived in -
other than one speeding ticket a few years back (I also have a better car!).

> In appreciation for their efforts the community got together and bought every
> officer a vest, which were presented on Christmas Day in 2007.

The police where I live now are mostly good people from what I can tell -
and they are overworked and underpaid.

With that said, I can understand why the police in bigger cities would
become cynical and over-reactive. They see a *lot* of very, very nasty
stuff.

--
"This doesn't mean our work is over; most GNU/Linux distros today contain
nonfree software, and there are more things that we expect a system to do."
-- Richard Stallman

[JEDIDIAH]

On 2013-05-22, Justin <justinthe...@hatespam.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 May 2013 16:25:21 -0700, Snit wrote:
>
>> On 5/21/13 3:59 PM, in article pan.2013.05...@hatespam.edu,
>> "Justin" <justinthe...@hatespam.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 21 May 2013 15:45:44 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Interesting. Did you see anyone using Linux by any chance?
>>>
>>> Of course not.
>>
>> I would have been surprised - but pleasantly so. And this is being
>> posted to COLA as well as CSMA so I thought it would be worth noting if
>> Linux was being used.
>
> Yeah, IMO Linux has alot of potential - the only thing keeping it out of
> the mainstream is the mass Balkanization. How many distros are there?

For most people, developers even, there are far fewer than the trolls
like to make out. Trolls are far more aware of how many variants of Linux
there are out there than actual users or even potential actual users.

[deletia]

--
Apple: Because a large harddrive is for power users.
|||
/ | \

[-hh]

On May 23, 2:40 pm, JEDIDIAH <j...@nomad.mishnet> wrote:
> On 2013-05-22, Justin <justinthenumbers...@hatespam.edu> wrote:
> [...]

>
> > Yeah, IMO Linux has alot of potential - the only thing keeping it out of
> > the mainstream is the mass Balkanization.  How many distros are there?
>
>  For most people, developers even, there are far fewer than the trolls
> like to make out. Trolls are far more aware of how many variants of Linux
> there are out there than actual users or even potential actual users.

A fair enough statement, but is it so because the general public
awareness of Linux is that of a "zero"?


-hh

[Snit]

On 5/23/13 11:40 AM, in article slrnkpsol...@nomad.mishnet,

If nobody knows of these distros, not even "actual users or even potential
actual users" then what value are they? Why even make them public?



--
"90% of computers use Microsoft's Windows ... Macs account for 9% of the
market while the open source system Linux accounts for 0.8%."
-- Linus Torvalds

[GreyCloud]

Pretty much spot on. I've yet to see a linux TV ad.

[flatfish+++]

IBM has them but for Blade Centers and high end servers.

--
flatfish+++
PLEASE VISIT OUR HALL OF LINUX IDIOTS:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

[GreyCloud]

IBM must target large cities then. I've never seen any IBM ads on CNBC
or other financial networks. Maybe my timing is off. But they actually
mentioned the word Linux?

[Justin]

CNBC? Doesn't Microsoft still own part of NBC? I guarantee MS will
insist there not be any mention of Linux, or Apple.

[Lloyd]

In article <knnrg3$hkv$5...@dont-email.me>,

I don't think so. I think MS got out of it a bit back.

[chrisv]

> Justin wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, IMO Linux has alot of potential - the only thing keeping it out of
>> the mainstream is the mass Balkanization. How many distros are there?

Yet another dumbfscking troll who is too *stupid* to figure-out that
Linux would be *less* used, *less* popular, were it not for all the
choices it offers.

The ignorant assholes think that just because *they* want to be,
effectively, told what to use and how to use it, everyone else feels
the same way.

Some of them are so fscking dense that they claim that people, when
presented with a number of choices, are unable to make a decision.
One wonders how they accomplish tasks such as cloths, car, or grocery
shopping.

--
"They get lost when they see 500 x distros v Windows v Apple." -
"True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark

[Snit]

On 5/24/13 8:35 AM, in article oq1vp89bh83tnl824...@4ax.com,

"chrisv" <chr...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>> Justin wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeah, IMO Linux has alot of potential - the only thing keeping it out of
>>> the mainstream is the mass Balkanization. How many distros are there?
>
> Yet another dumbfscking troll who is too *stupid* to figure-out that
> Linux would be *less* used, *less* popular, were it not for all the
> choices it offers.

This is debatable. Choice is good... and nobody should stop anyone from
doing what they want in making a new distro, as long as they follow the GPL.

But a large number of distros leads to confusion and makes it harder for
people to get support. There *are* down sides.

> The ignorant assholes think that just because *they* want to be,
> effectively, told what to use and how to use it, everyone else feels
> the same way.

That is now what anyone is saying. You flat out made that up... well, it is
a part of the absurd herd narrative that makes no sense. We should add that
to the list of BS herd members believe:

* MS has secret deals to stop OEMs from selling Linux pre-installed.
* Apple claims to have invented the "rounded rectangle".
* Desktop Linux serves people as well as the competition.
* Apple never innovated anything.
* Samsung has not been copying Apple's products.
* Apple and MS are struggling / dying companies.
* MS has a monopoly on the desktop.
* Snit is anti-choice (as are others they accuse).
* Snit is anti-Linux (as are others they accuse).
* Snit uses sock puppets (as do others they accuse).
* Stallman's views on kids and sexuality are fine.
* Stallman's doubletalk about "Freedom" is coherent and makes sense.
* MS is evil to have blocked Linux years ago, but Google is fine to
block Aliyun OS *now*.
* When an organization moves to a Linux based product it is always a
good move. When they move away from one it is always a bad move.
* Even though some herd members post membership lists of who is in
the herd, all herd members deny the herd even exists.
* If you recognize there are downsides to massive amounts of distros,
then you must want to be told how to use it and believe everyone

feels the same way.

> Some of them are so fscking dense that they claim that people, when
> presented with a number of choices, are unable to make a decision.

Unable? No. They make a decision. The decision is often to go elsewhere or
not purchase the product.

> One wonders how they accomplish tasks such as cloths, car, or grocery
> shopping.

Good to see you admit you wonder about this. To help you understand, I
suggest you read "The Paradox of Choice". Good info in it.

[-hh]

On May 24, 11:35 am, chrisv <chr...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
> Some of them are so fscking dense that they claim that people, when
> presented with a number of choices, are unable to make a decision.
> One wonders how they accomplish tasks such as cloths, car, or grocery
> shopping.

Tsk, tsk...poor chrisv still doesn't get facts right. It is not
about an inability in making a decision, but rather if one is
satisfied with the decision, including afterwords; see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice:_Why_More_Is_Less

See the "See Also" section too, including:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis



-hh

[GreyCloud]

I think you are thinking about MSNBC.

[GreyCloud]

On 5/24/2013 9:35 AM, chrisv wrote:
>> Justin wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeah, IMO Linux has alot of potential - the only thing keeping it out of
>>> the mainstream is the mass Balkanization. How many distros are there?
>
> Yet another dumbfscking troll who is too *stupid* to figure-out that
> Linux would be *less* used, *less* popular, were it not for all the
> choices it offers.
>
> The ignorant assholes think that just because *they* want to be,
> effectively, told what to use and how to use it, everyone else feels
> the same way.
>
> Some of them are so fscking dense that they claim that people, when
> presented with a number of choices, are unable to make a decision.
> One wonders how they accomplish tasks such as cloths, car, or grocery
> shopping.
>

There aren't any choices... all of your perceived choices are based on
old programming paradigms, known as X.

[flatfish+++]

MSNBC = The Obama Channel.

FWIW you'll see a lot of Apple stuff on MSNBC.

[GreyCloud]

That's true because Apple does sell MS flagship word processor program now.

[Soupe du Jour]

On Wed, 22 May 2013 22:57:40 +0000, Justin wrote:

> On Tue, 21 May 2013 16:25:21 -0700, Snit wrote:
>
>> On 5/21/13 3:59 PM, in article pan.2013.05...@hatespam.edu,
>> "Justin" <justinthe...@hatespam.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 21 May 2013 15:45:44 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Interesting. Did you see anyone using Linux by any chance?
>>>
>>> Of course not.
>>
>> I would have been surprised - but pleasantly so. And this is being
>> posted to COLA as well as CSMA so I thought it would be worth noting if
>> Linux was being used.
>
> Yeah, IMO Linux has alot of potential - the only thing keeping it out of
> the mainstream is the mass Balkanization. How many distros are there?
> Too many. Every major securities exchange in the world dumped SQL for
> Linux. That says something.

One thing it says is that you're trying to troll the newsgroup with this
Balkanization crap.

[Snit]

On 5/28/13 12:18 PM, in article ko2vua$dh3$1...@dont-email.me, "Soupe du Jour"

You merely are proclaiming that without making any argument to support your
position nor asking the author to support his position. Why not work to talk
about technology and rise above the name calling?


--
"I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children."
-- Richard Stallman

[GreyCloud]

On 5/22/2013 4:57 PM, Justin wrote:
> On Tue, 21 May 2013 16:25:21 -0700, Snit wrote:
>
>> On 5/21/13 3:59 PM, in article pan.2013.05...@hatespam.edu,
>> "Justin" <justinthe...@hatespam.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 21 May 2013 15:45:44 -0700, Snit wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Interesting. Did you see anyone using Linux by any chance?
>>>
>>> Of course not.
>>
>> I would have been surprised - but pleasantly so. And this is being
>> posted to COLA as well as CSMA so I thought it would be worth noting if
>> Linux was being used.
>
> Yeah, IMO Linux has alot of potential - the only thing keeping it out of
> the mainstream is the mass Balkanization. How many distros are there?
> Too many. Every major securities exchange in the world dumped SQL for
> Linux. That says something.
>

Do you have a cite for this?