I bought a new Toshiba Satellite laptop with Windows 7 installed. The moment I opened it up, it went into its automatic setup procedure and installed Windows 7 from a recovery partition. There weren't many options available during setup (choose 32-bit or 64-bit Windows 7, choose your language, and that's about it). It ended up creating the following disk structure on the drive:
Well, I was about to go and repartition it to my own preferences, when I discovered that all 4 primary partitions were taken up by the Toshiba setup. The first partition is 1.46GB is listed as the recovery partition, but it's probably a boot manager partition. Then there is the last partition, 527.65GB, which is the actual Windows partition. Then there are two mysterious hidden partitions, 24.44GB & 13.19GB, respectively. I called up Toshiba support to ask them what these were. They said that the 13.19GB partition is the place where they actually store the recovery data. The 24.44GB partition according to them is reserved for the volume shadow copy service (VSS), I think.
Now, I have another machine running Windows 7, a desktop PC, and it doesn't have this separate partition for volume shadow copies. It has a retail version of Windows 7 Ultimate installed. I believe it stores the shadow copies directly within the same volume it's shadowing.
I'm trying to reduce the size of the boot partition and free up space to add a Linux partition for dual-boot. But with the first 4 entries already used up in the primary partition table, I can't even add an extended partition for Linux to reside in. Thinking what the consequences of removing the VSS partition will be? I think VSS should work fine with or without the separate partition. Toshiba obviously said that they suggest leaving everything alone the way it is now, but of course they would say that. What's the opinion here?
Yousuf Khan wrote:
> I bought a new Toshiba Satellite laptop with Windows 7 installed. The
> moment I opened it up, it went into its automatic setup procedure and
> installed Windows 7 from a recovery partition. There weren't many
> options available during setup (choose 32-bit or 64-bit Windows 7,
> choose your language, and that's about it). It ended up creating the
> following disk structure on the drive:
> Well, I was about to go and repartition it to my own preferences, when I
> discovered that all 4 primary partitions were taken up by the Toshiba
> setup. The first partition is 1.46GB is listed as the recovery
> partition, but it's probably a boot manager partition. Then there is the
> last partition, 527.65GB, which is the actual Windows partition. Then
> there are two mysterious hidden partitions, 24.44GB & 13.19GB,
> respectively. I called up Toshiba support to ask them what these were.
> They said that the 13.19GB partition is the place where they actually
> store the recovery data. The 24.44GB partition according to them is
> reserved for the volume shadow copy service (VSS), I think.
> Now, I have another machine running Windows 7, a desktop PC, and it
> doesn't have this separate partition for volume shadow copies. It has a
> retail version of Windows 7 Ultimate installed. I believe it stores the
> shadow copies directly within the same volume it's shadowing.
> I'm trying to reduce the size of the boot partition and free up space to
> add a Linux partition for dual-boot. But with the first 4 entries
> already used up in the primary partition table, I can't even add an
> extended partition for Linux to reside in. Thinking what the
> consequences of removing the VSS partition will be? I think VSS should
> work fine with or without the separate partition. Toshiba obviously said
> that they suggest leaving everything alone the way it is now, but of
> course they would say that. What's the opinion here?
> Yousuf Khan
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Yousuf Khan wrote:
> I bought a new Toshiba Satellite laptop with Windows 7 installed. The
> moment I opened it up, it went into its automatic setup procedure and
> installed Windows 7 from a recovery partition. There weren't many
> options available during setup (choose 32-bit or 64-bit Windows 7,
> choose your language, and that's about it). It ended up creating the
> following disk structure on the drive:
> Well, I was about to go and repartition it to my own preferences, when I
> discovered that all 4 primary partitions were taken up by the Toshiba
> setup. The first partition is 1.46GB is listed as the recovery
> partition, but it's probably a boot manager partition. Then there is the
> last partition, 527.65GB, which is the actual Windows partition. Then
> there are two mysterious hidden partitions, 24.44GB & 13.19GB,
> respectively. I called up Toshiba support to ask them what these were.
> They said that the 13.19GB partition is the place where they actually
> store the recovery data. The 24.44GB partition according to them is
> reserved for the volume shadow copy service (VSS), I think.
> Now, I have another machine running Windows 7, a desktop PC, and it
> doesn't have this separate partition for volume shadow copies. It has a
> retail version of Windows 7 Ultimate installed. I believe it stores the
> shadow copies directly within the same volume it's shadowing.
> I'm trying to reduce the size of the boot partition and free up space to
> add a Linux partition for dual-boot. But with the first 4 entries
> already used up in the primary partition table, I can't even add an
> extended partition for Linux to reside in. Thinking what the
> consequences of removing the VSS partition will be? I think VSS should
> work fine with or without the separate partition. Toshiba obviously said
> that they suggest leaving everything alone the way it is now, but of
> course they would say that. What's the opinion here?
> Yousuf Khan
My new Acer doesn't have the VSS partition; Win7 HP 64-bit.
Give it a letter, take a look inside it. If there's nothing there make a note of the exact size in case you need to recreate it, then remove it.
Reduce the C partition by as much as you need, create your Linux one, and install.
The way I use it on my netbook is, I have an extended partition with various data volumes, then of course there's the factory restore partition, and the Bootit partition. I shrunk the original C: partition way down to 30 Gigs, and I have a copy of it as an alternate. I have images of C: in a volume that I update when changes are made to C:, so I can pull out of any difficulties by restoring, and the data is untouched, being on the volumes.
Ta da!
On the bootit site there are faq's about linux, plus there's a great newsgroup where you get really quick answers.
> My new Acer doesn't have the VSS partition; Win7 HP 64-bit.
> Give it a letter, take a look inside it. If there's nothing there make a
> note of the exact size in case you need to recreate it, then remove it.
> Reduce the C partition by as much as you need, create your Linux one,
> and install.
Neither of the two mystery partitions seem to be NTFS or FAT-formatted. They seem to be proprietary.
Yousuf Khan wrote:
> On 03/02/2012 4:21 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
>> My new Acer doesn't have the VSS partition; Win7 HP 64-bit.
>> Give it a letter, take a look inside it. If there's nothing there
>> make a note of the exact size in case you need to recreate it, then
>> remove it. Reduce the C partition by as much as you need, create
>> your Linux one, and install.
> Neither of the two mystery partitions seem to be NTFS or
> FAT-formatted. They seem to be proprietary.
Have a look at the recent posts in the *.storage group,
Andy goes into quite a bit of detail with his Toshiba Satellite
and its likely using the same setup as yours.
With his, those two partitions are for the diskless
restore and what creates the restore CDs,
I thought he might reply to you but then I remember that
his Toshiba Satellite has just gone back to Toshiba for
hard drive replacement and thats the only real PC he has.
Yousuf Khan wrote:
> On 03/02/2012 4:21 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
>> My new Acer doesn't have the VSS partition; Win7 HP 64-bit.
>> Give it a letter, take a look inside it. If there's nothing there make a
>> note of the exact size in case you need to recreate it, then remove it.
>> Reduce the C partition by as much as you need, create your Linux one,
>> and install.
> Neither of the two mystery partitions seem to be NTFS or FAT-formatted. > They seem to be proprietary.
> Yousuf Khan
Use PTEDIT32 and get the partition type fields ?
If run in Win7, use Run As Administrator, or you might see an "Error 5".
To get that, you can boot a Ubuntu CD, open Synaptic Package manager,
enable all the repositories, reload the repository info (lots of downloads,
takes a minute or so), then in Synaptic package manager you can install
the "disktype" package. Once in there, open a Terminal window and type
sudo disktype /dev/sda2
That would check the second partition of hard drive "sda". It will
then attempt to identify the partition type. The tool will even
accept a file which holds a file system (like if you "dd" dump a
partition into a file, if you feed it the file, it can also say
what the file system is).
As far as I know, there isn't a Windows version of "disktype". I see
on the info page, it mentions Cygwin, but I don't have that here.
> Yousuf Khan wrote:
>> On 03/02/2012 4:21 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>> My new Acer doesn't have the VSS partition; Win7 HP 64-bit.
>>> Give it a letter, take a look inside it. If there's nothing there
>>> make a note of the exact size in case you need to recreate it, then
>>> remove it. Reduce the C partition by as much as you need, create
>>> your Linux one, and install.
>> Neither of the two mystery partitions seem to be NTFS or
>> FAT-formatted. They seem to be proprietary.
> Have a look at the recent posts in the *.storage group,
> Andy goes into quite a bit of detail with his Toshiba Satellite
> and its likely using the same setup as yours.
> With his, those two partitions are for the diskless
> restore and what creates the restore CDs,
> I thought he might reply to you but then I remember that
> his Toshiba Satellite has just gone back to Toshiba for
> hard drive replacement and thats the only real PC he has.
Oh wow, so this discussion has already happened, and not that long ago either? I see the other thread in *.storage now. Looks like Andy Hancock had an almost identical sized hard disk as mine, it was setup in the same way.
Anyways, it looks like I may have gotten my answer from Toshiba. When I called them, I expected to get the run-around from them, and they did for a while. They told me what the two mystery partitions are for: (1) recovery, and (2) Volume Shadow Service. But according to the other thread, they are for recovery, and language packs. I think the language packs makes more sense to me than the Volume Shadow Service. I then called them back and asked them to send me to their second-line engineers. And I told the second-line guy, point blank that I needed to install Linux on the box, and that he needed to tell me which of the partitions can be removed after backing up. So he figured I knew what I was doing, and so he told me that the 13 GB parition is the recovery partition, and that it can be backed up to DVD's and removed later.
Toshiba furnishes an utility called the Toshiba Recovery Media Creator, which does the imaging for you. When the utility first starts, it asks you which language pack you want to back up (the choices are English and French in Canada, of course). You have to back up each language in separate actions, so you can do that, or just backup the one that's most relevant to you.
> Yousuf Khan wrote:
>> On 03/02/2012 4:21 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>> My new Acer doesn't have the VSS partition; Win7 HP 64-bit.
>>> Give it a letter, take a look inside it. If there's nothing there make a
>>> note of the exact size in case you need to recreate it, then remove it.
>>> Reduce the C partition by as much as you need, create your Linux one,
>>> and install.
>> Neither of the two mystery partitions seem to be NTFS or
>> FAT-formatted. They seem to be proprietary.
>> Yousuf Khan
> Use PTEDIT32 and get the partition type fields ?
> If run in Win7, use Run As Administrator, or you might see an "Error 5".
Ah great, this worked thanks! The 4 partitions were type respectively: 27, 07, 17, and 17.
Type 27 is listed as a PQservice partition, which is either FAT32 or NTFS (it is NTFS in this case). It's apparently used by Acer and other OEMs as a hidden rescue partition.
Type 07 is standard NTFS (it can also be HPFS, and exFAT).
Type 17 is listed as a Hidden IFS, e.g. possibly HPFS.
> To get that, you can boot a Ubuntu CD, open Synaptic Package manager,
> enable all the repositories, reload the repository info (lots of downloads,
> takes a minute or so), then in Synaptic package manager you can install
> the "disktype" package. Once in there, open a Terminal window and type
> sudo disktype /dev/sda2
> That would check the second partition of hard drive "sda". It will
> then attempt to identify the partition type. The tool will even
> accept a file which holds a file system (like if you "dd" dump a
> partition into a file, if you feed it the file, it can also say
> what the file system is).
> As far as I know, there isn't a Windows version of "disktype". I see
> on the info page, it mentions Cygwin, but I don't have that here.
Well, the whole problem started as a result of trying to install Linux on this machine. :)
Yousuf Khan wrote:
> On 02/04/2012 02:56 AM, Paul wrote:
>> Yousuf Khan wrote:
>>> On 03/02/2012 4:21 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>>> My new Acer doesn't have the VSS partition; Win7 HP 64-bit.
>>>> Give it a letter, take a look inside it. If there's nothing there >>>> make a
>>>> note of the exact size in case you need to recreate it, then remove it.
>>>> Reduce the C partition by as much as you need, create your Linux one,
>>>> and install.
>>> Neither of the two mystery partitions seem to be NTFS or
>>> FAT-formatted. They seem to be proprietary.
>>> Yousuf Khan
>> Use PTEDIT32 and get the partition type fields ?
>> If run in Win7, use Run As Administrator, or you might see an "Error 5".
> Ah great, this worked thanks! The 4 partitions were type respectively: > 27, 07, 17, and 17.
> Type 27 is listed as a PQservice partition, which is either FAT32 or > NTFS (it is NTFS in this case). It's apparently used by Acer and other > OEMs as a hidden rescue partition.
> Type 07 is standard NTFS (it can also be HPFS, and exFAT).
> Type 17 is listed as a Hidden IFS, e.g. possibly HPFS.
>> Another way to attempt to identify a partition like that, is with
>> "Disktype".
> Well, the whole problem started as a result of trying to install Linux > on this machine. :)
> Yousuf Khan
You can "install" packages when using the LiveCD - it's just wasteful
(not persistent). The files end up on the ram based file system, while
you're using them. (There are some persistent options as well, but
that's another story, and more of a nuisance.)
I'm kinda curious, whether you could make an Extended partition (leaving
room for three primaries), then shift some of that stuff into logical
partitions ? If the small 1.4GB partition is what Windows 7 boots from,
perhaps C: can actually be a logical. Then, it's a question of whether
one of those hidden partitions can be moved into a logical as well. Perhaps
you can free up enough primaries, to end up with a spare you can use for
Linux. (The Toshiba software might not be too happy about that though, if
you ever need to restore to factory config - some restore packages insist
on the same partition scheme as was there originally, before they'll run.)
As for the idea of a separate VSS Cache partition, I thought that was only
supported on server OSes. I wanted to do that (move the VSS Cache stuff
off C:), but when I read up on it, I got the impression Windows 7 desktop
didn't include code to do it.
> Yousuf Khan wrote:
>> On 02/04/2012 02:56 AM, Paul wrote:
>>> Use PTEDIT32 and get the partition type fields ?
>>> If run in Win7, use Run As Administrator, or you might see an "Error 5".
>> Ah great, this worked thanks! The 4 partitions were type respectively:
>> 27, 07, 17, and 17.
>> Type 27 is listed as a PQservice partition, which is either FAT32 or
>> NTFS (it is NTFS in this case). It's apparently used by Acer and other
>> OEMs as a hidden rescue partition.
>> Type 07 is standard NTFS (it can also be HPFS, and exFAT).
>> Type 17 is listed as a Hidden IFS, e.g. possibly HPFS.
> I'd bet they were all NTFS, given the situation.
It's probable, but when I used the command-line based Windows util, diskpart.exe (which I assume is more powerful than the graphical Disk Management utility), it couldn't recognize the filesystem on the Type 17 partitions. I did recognize the filesystem on the type 27 partition, even though that's also considered a hidden NTFS. And of course, it recognized the filesystem on the type 07 partition, which is a completely unhidden standard partition.
> I'm kinda curious, whether you could make an Extended partition (leaving
> room for three primaries), then shift some of that stuff into logical
> partitions ? If the small 1.4GB partition is what Windows 7 boots from,
> perhaps C: can actually be a logical. Then, it's a question of whether
> one of those hidden partitions can be moved into a logical as well. Perhaps
> you can free up enough primaries, to end up with a spare you can use for
> Linux. (The Toshiba software might not be too happy about that though, if
> you ever need to restore to factory config - some restore packages insist
> on the same partition scheme as was there originally, before they'll run.)
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, but the only thing that seems to be able to read that partition is Toshiba`s own disk imaging utility. I suppose I could read it raw with the Unix/Linux-based DD utility, but then I need to clear off this partition to even get Unix on this machine. Lotsa catch-22's.
> As for the idea of a separate VSS Cache partition, I thought that was only
> supported on server OSes. I wanted to do that (move the VSS Cache stuff
> off C:), but when I read up on it, I got the impression Windows 7 desktop
> didn't include code to do it.
Which just goes to show how ludicrous the Toshiba tech's claim that this is a VSS partition is. Besides, a 24GB partition seems awfully large for a VSS partition, doesn't it? The only thing I've seen that uses the VSS system regularly is my backup/imaging program (in my case it's Macrium Reflect, but it could be Acronis TrueImage, or whatever). During the time that the imager is working I doubt you're going to get 1GB of changes happening in the background, let alone 24GB!
En el artículo <4f3051e...@news.bnb-lp.com>, Yousuf Khan
<bbb...@spammenot.yahoo.com> escribió:
>It's probable, but when I used the command-line based Windows util, >diskpart.exe (which I assume is more powerful than the graphical Disk >Management utility), it couldn't recognize the filesystem on the Type 17 >partitions. I did recognize the filesystem on the type 27 partition, >even though that's also considered a hidden NTFS.
> I >suppose I could read it raw with the Unix/Linux-based DD utility, but >then I need to clear off this partition to even get Unix on this >machine. Lotsa catch-22's.
> En el artículo<4f3051e...@news.bnb-lp.com>, Yousuf Khan
> <bbb...@spammenot.yahoo.com> escribió:
>> It's probable, but when I used the command-line based Windows util,
>> diskpart.exe (which I assume is more powerful than the graphical Disk
>> Management utility), it couldn't recognize the filesystem on the Type 17
>> partitions. I did recognize the filesystem on the type 27 partition,
>> even though that's also considered a hidden NTFS.
>> I
>> suppose I could read it raw with the Unix/Linux-based DD utility, but
>> then I need to clear off this partition to even get Unix on this
>> machine. Lotsa catch-22's.
> use a live CD.
You'd still need to be able to store the image file on a large enough file system, which usually means the internal hard disk.
Yousuf Khan wrote:
> On 06/02/2012 10:36 PM, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
>> En el artículo<4f3051e...@news.bnb-lp.com>, Yousuf Khan
>> <bbb...@spammenot.yahoo.com> escribió:
>>> It's probable, but when I used the command-line based Windows util,
>>> diskpart.exe (which I assume is more powerful than the graphical Disk
>>> Management utility), it couldn't recognize the filesystem on the Type 17
>>> partitions. I did recognize the filesystem on the type 27 partition,
>>> even though that's also considered a hidden NTFS.
>>> I
>>> suppose I could read it raw with the Unix/Linux-based DD utility, but
>>> then I need to clear off this partition to even get Unix on this
>>> machine. Lotsa catch-22's.
>> use a live CD.
> You'd still need to be able to store the image file on a large enough > file system, which usually means the internal hard disk.
> Yousuf Khan
The "disktype" program will tell you for sure what it is.
En el artículo <4f31387...@news.bnb-lp.com>, Yousuf Khan
<bbb...@spammenot.yahoo.com> escribió:
>It says both are "hid HPFS/NTFS"
there's your answer then.
TestDisk has a 'file browser' built-in. If those partitions are NTFS,
it should be able to produce a list of files for you. That'll confirm
that they are NTFS format and not some Toshiba proprietary format.
>You'd still need to be able to store the image file on a large enough >file system, which usually means the internal hard disk.
> Mike Tomlinson wrote
>> Yousuf Khan <bbb...@spammenot.yahoo.com> wrote
>>> It's probable, but when I used the command-line based Windows util,
>>> diskpart.exe (which I assume is more powerful than the graphical
>>> Disk Management utility), it couldn't recognize the filesystem on
>>> the Type 17 partitions. I did recognize the filesystem on the type
>>> 27 partition, even though that's also considered a hidden NTFS.
>> What does TestDisk say?
>> http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk > It says both are "hid HPFS/NTFS"
>>> I suppose I could read it raw with the Unix/Linux-based DD utility,
>>> but then I need to clear off this partition to even get Unix on this
>>> machine. Lotsa catch-22's.
>> use a live CD.
> You'd still need to be able to store the image file on a large enough
> file system, which usually means the internal hard disk.
Nope, the better live CDs can store on an external drive fine.
> En el artículo<4f31387...@news.bnb-lp.com>, Yousuf Khan
> <bbb...@spammenot.yahoo.com> escribió:
>> It says both are "hid HPFS/NTFS"
> there's your answer then.
> TestDisk has a 'file browser' built-in. If those partitions are NTFS,
> it should be able to produce a list of files for you. That'll confirm
> that they are NTFS format and not some Toshiba proprietary format.
I wonder if I can just change the partition type from 17 to 07, then it'll become a standard NTFS. I should then be able to just back it up with my imaging program.
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Yousuf Khan <bbb...@spammenot.yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 07/02/2012 12:56 PM, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
>> En el art?culo<4f31387...@news.bnb-lp.com>, Yousuf Khan
>> <bbb...@spammenot.yahoo.com> escribi?:
>>> It says both are "hid HPFS/NTFS"
>> there's your answer then.
>> TestDisk has a 'file browser' built-in. If those partitions are NTFS,
>> it should be able to produce a list of files for you. That'll confirm
>> that they are NTFS format and not some Toshiba proprietary format.
> I wonder if I can just change the partition type from 17 to 07, then > it'll become a standard NTFS. I should then be able to just back it up > with my imaging program.
> Yousuf Khan
If you do a sector-image, the partition type should not matter.
Arno
-- Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: a...@wagner.name
GnuPG: ID: 1E25338F FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
----
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En el artículo <4f3350c...@news.bnb-lp.com>, Yousuf Khan
<bbb...@spammenot.yahoo.com> escribió:
>I wonder if I can just change the partition type from 17 to 07, then >it'll become a standard NTFS. I should then be able to just back it up >with my imaging program.
Just changing the partition type should not be data-destructive, but if
you're ultra-cautious, as a precaution you could make an image of the
partition elsewhere and change the type on that to 07, then see if it
appears as a normal NTFS filesystem.
> Mike Tomlinson wrote
>> Yousuf Khan <bbb...@spammenot.yahoo.com> wrote
>>> It says both are "hid HPFS/NTFS"
>> there's your answer then.
>> TestDisk has a 'file browser' built-in. If those partitions are NTFS, it should be able to produce a list of files >> for you. That'll confirm that they are NTFS format and not some Toshiba proprietary format.
> I wonder if I can just change the partition type from 17 to 07, then
> it'll become a standard NTFS. I should then be able to just back it up
> with my imaging program.
Any decent imaging program can back it up regardless of whether it recognised the file system or not.
Yousuf Khan wrote:
> On 07/02/2012 12:56 PM, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
>> En el artículo<4f31387...@news.bnb-lp.com>, Yousuf Khan
>> <bbb...@spammenot.yahoo.com> escribió:
>>> It says both are "hid HPFS/NTFS"
>> there's your answer then.
>> TestDisk has a 'file browser' built-in. If those partitions are NTFS,
>> it should be able to produce a list of files for you. That'll confirm
>> that they are NTFS format and not some Toshiba proprietary format.
> I wonder if I can just change the partition type from 17 to 07, then > it'll become a standard NTFS. I should then be able to just back it up > with my imaging program.
> Yousuf Khan
There is a good chance that will work.
But if I had doubts, I'd use "disktype". I have a USB flash with
Ubuntu on it, with a copy of disktype loaded. I can plug that into
a machine and have an answer in about 3 minutes or so (slow slow boot,
partially the fault of the flash).
> If you do a sector-image, the partition type should not matter.
I've gone ahead and let Ptedit32 change the partition types, and then after a reboot, the two partitions were actually automatically mounted by Windows as E: and F:.
> Arno wrote
>> If you do a sector-image, the partition type should not matter.
> I've gone ahead and let Ptedit32 change the partition types, and then after a reboot, the two partitions were actually > automatically mounted by Windows as E: and F:.
And thats presumably why Toshiba chooses to fake the partition type, so that doesnt happen.
