Probable WITP-AE release time anounced
Ralph Hoenig
We expect AE to be released in the second half of July. The manuals have not
yet "landed" but they are currently on schedule to arrive in our warehouse
in that same second half of July. As soon as we have confirmation that the
manuals are safely in hand, we will release the game. We are very close to
gold on the development side, currently we are checking a gold candidate and
it looks like the next build will _probably_ be the gold master.
The confirmed pricing for AE will be $59.99 Download / $69.99 Physical,
which is $10 less than War in the Pacific. We will also be discounting War
in the Pacific for a limited time to coincide with the release of the
Admiral's Edition. The goal of this is to make it a bit easier for wargamers
who may first hear of WITP/AE because of the AE release announcement to "buy
in" if they wish. We recommend that gamers who have not played WITP purchase
and try that first before deciding to upgrade to AE.
The Admiral's Edition _requires_ that you own and have installed a copy of
War in the Pacific (any version) on the same system where you plan to
install AE. If you have not, AE will not install and will not run.
AE does _not_ install on top of WITP, but it requires it to install and run.
After you install AE, you will have two separate working games. You can
continue playing WITP and any ongoing solo or PBEM games without
interruption while firing up AE and getting started with that.
When we are about a week away from release (our best guess) we will release
the full AE manual in the Members Club to get you started. This download
will only be available to those who have registered their copy of WITP.
Regards,
- Erik
Thought to let you know
Ralph Hoenig, Germany
Ray O'Hara
"Ralph Hoenig" <R.Hoenig-...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:h3ascp$5i6$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
so to play AE you have to already have WitP????
so its a "patch" for $60-$70. wow.
Bloodstar
> so its a "patch" for $60-$70. wow.
Gee, Ray you are right on this one...
Just read this thread if you have nerve or time:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2161115&mpage=1&key=
They tell me that I am Matrix hater which is in fact don't true, mostly they
shoot themself in the foot.
And this is UNHEARD of policy what they try to push here.
But we on this ng have ENDLESS debates on DRM everytime Norm Koger or Jim
Rose fart on Gamesquad forum but nobody have noticed this.
Not that I care too much about this game or WITP but making people pay twice
for some MOD or EXPANSION how some call this game is really bastardly way to
treat your customers. Disgrace in my opinion.
Other gaming companies doesn't do business like this. If this is some kind
of GOLD version of WITP and probably is, then Matrix should have made
standalone product not connect already expensive product with another
expensive product.
In one word bastards.
I will think twice on my decision to buy Grisby's game on East Front...
But hey DRM is evil... and this is all good as some say...
Now we see where world is going...
Mario
Bloodstar
ie. Just take the money in whatever way you find convinient. Even if you
have to steal it. And this is exactly the right word for this - a legal
robbery by Matrix Games, Inc.
They should have to start hitting Banks in New York some day.
Erik
in...
AE is not an expansion pack. AE received more development time than
WITP in total. Virtually every part of the WITP system was rewritten,
adjusted, or overhauled. Combat, economics, the entire map, a brand
new AI, etc. This is FAR, FAR more than a "patch". It's a new game
in all but name. We are going to be separately updating WITP with an
update after AE's release that includes some of the fixes made
possible by AE's development. That will be a patch and that will be
free.
AE requires WITP for several reasons. First, it does not duplicate
WITP's content. WITP still has quite a few scenarios that AE does not
have. Second, it's more involved. The scale is more detailed and
although we've made some interface and usability improvements, it's a
more complex (and realistic) game. We don't want people jumping right
into AE. If they're interested, we'd rather have them start with WITP
and then "upgrade" to AE when they're ready. For all those who
already have WITP and have enjoyed it since its original release 5
years ago, this is a pretty inexpensive way to support further
development of this type of game and releasing a new game of this kind
every five years after major development is not exactly "milking" of
any kind.
Most of our customers who own WITP actually say that it's the biggest
gaming bargain they ever bought, in terms of how much entertainment
they got per buck. If AE did not require ownership of WITP, it's
stand alone price would be significantly higher.
Regards,
- Erik
Bloodstar
The economics of pricing a monster game like WITP IMHO is not to be judged
how much time some player have put into it. Because by this logic I have put
more time in some individual FREE scenarios for TOAW then many paid games
combined.
I would have grant you that you are right if for example WITP or AE were
really expensive to develop and I don't think that is the true.
Re: your argument how this is almost completely a new game - well then it is
also an argument pro STAND ALONE product. And complexity is not a problem
for wargamers so that they need to buy WITP to play then AE, sorry that
doesn't hold water again IMHO.
BTW, by your logic almost every GOLD edition out there would be connected
with earlier version.
So when PIRATES GOLD! was released, Sid Meier should say "Nah, you must buy
Pirates! first to play Pirates Gold!".
Suit yourself, maybe my opinion is not important but I am sure that your
customers will not like that. Owners of WITP maybe don't care as they
already purchased that requrement for AE but new customers and you are mind
you COUNTING on those sales as well will mind.
What you do really try to push here is simple.
Let's say that you sold 10000 WITP copies. So you artifically want to
prolongue life cycle of dead product (WITP) and sell adittional 2000-3000
copies with hopes that many of owners of WITP will buy AE :o))))
Nice plan I must admit.
So let's do some math:
WITP these days sell 20 or 30 copies a month (or less), now if you sell 3000
more, let's see that's whooping 210000 $.
Enough money to buy you a plane ticket to Palma De Mayorca or some small
vacation to LA to see how Spielbergs mother is cooking. :o))))
Excellent, I must say, Excellent.
My respect,
Mario
Erik
> Enough money to buy you a plane ticket to Palma De Mayorca or some small
> vacation to LA to see how Spielbergs mother is cooking. :o))))
My last actual vacation was in 2005, which lasted for an entire week.
I won't debate figures that I can't even discuss in public. It's not
a "gold version". It's basically a rewrite of WITP in a large number
of areas, based on years of public games and a huge body of results in
all kinds of situations to compare to history. At the same time, it's
more detailed and complex, so it may not be for everyone. As I wrote
on our forum, wargaming is a niche and monster wargaming is a niche
within that niche. It doesn't have analogs to mainstream games in
many areas, including the economics of the development and pricing and
how it is marketed. Our goal here is to make existing WITP owners
very happy and also to ensure further development of WITP-style games.
Regards,
- Erik
thewood
I have no issue with $70 for a standalone game, or up to $40 for a
follow on game in the same series, but to have to pay almost $80 and
then $70 is just a little arrogant. on Matrix's part. I would gladly
pay the $70 if I hadn't already invested a fairly high amount in
WITP. I was actually going to buy AE until I saw this. I have a
limited budget for games and dropping $70 on an expanded, fixed,
patched, game by the same same and on the surface looks like the same
game will make my wife question my fiscal responsibility.
Ray O'Hara
"Erik" <er...@matrixgames.com> wrote in message
news:749a958d-83cb-4444...@k20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
sorry Erik, a "game" is something you buy, install and play.
if you need a game already installed then its a patch. it might be a very
expansive patch but a patch none the less.
do you expect to sell this patch to new buyers?
you've made it a $130.00. wow , just wow.
Honor
A) This is a new, standalone monster wargame.
B) This is an expansion pack to an existing monster wargame.
Choose one.
For the statisticians out there, I am not into monster wargames, so I
was never a potential customer.
<Unrelated sidetrack>
This post reminded me of a joke:
Career Survey:
* Make Lots of Money
* Enjoy Your Work
* Stay Within the Law
Choose two.
</Unrelated sidetrack>
Erik
that. We also feel WITP still has legs and it is also its own game at
a different scale and detail level than AE. But keep in mind that
WITP has been out for five years and cost $70 download. Most folks
have gotten way more than their money's worth out of that. AE comes
along five years later and will cost $60 to download. Asking for $60-
$70 every five years for a monster wargame of this scale is frankly
not a significant investment and will allow development on games of
this kind to continue, the next step being a new engine to replace the
UV/WITP/AE generation. What I do find surprising about this feedback
is that we've made the two points below very clear from the beginning,
but people are reacting as if this is a sneak attack.
1. AE will require WITP
2. AE will not be much less than WITP in terms of price
Regards,
- Erik
Steve Bartman
wrote:
I won't debate figures that I can't even discuss in public. It's not
>a "gold version". It's basically a rewrite of WITP in a large number
>of areas, based on years of public games and a huge body of results in
>all kinds of situations to compare to history.
Erik, I support the idea of AE, and I'll buy a copy sometime. (Not
right away. I got tired of waiting, went out and bought a game Friday,
then saw your announcement Saturday morning at 0200 when I looked up
from my new game. The budget is blown for awhile.) I'll buy a copy,
but I already own WITP. But I think your pricing model is weird to say
the least, and the amount of gorilla dust you're throwing around to
obscure the decision's underpinnings is troubling.
At the same time, it's
>more detailed and complex, so it may not be for everyone.
That may be so, but it's NOT FOR YOU to say or to force. That right
there is the arrogant, paternalistic tone that makes my BS radar go
off. I accepted that WITP was needed when I thought AE code rode on
top of key WITP files. Now that you've said it doesn't, that all AE
does is an install check and is otherwise a stand-alone game, I think
this decision is really dumb. In a recession. When the combined price
is $160ish.
Players who already have WITP may not care (much, assuming they have
the game on the PC they'll play AE on and/or still can find their
disk.) But, while not caring, they don't generate any incremental
revenue for you. So the install check gets you nothing.
Players who have been fence sitting and don't have WITP because of the
past price/content ratio won't pay twice as much to get the one thing
they want--a "fixed" WITP. (The AI in WITP is retarded. I'm buying AE
mostly to get a moddable one.) They especially won't pay for two games
to play just one--in a recession.
Players who just heard about either WITP OR AE (IOW, non fence
sitters; true newbies) also have a $160 hurdle to sample AE. You think
they'll try WITP--the heart of your volume/pricing model--thus
extending an ancient engine that's fully amortized. Maybe they'll buy
AE later, and maybe not. But at least you get one sale. Trouble is,
you get one sale on an old platform, with, again, a cretinous AI. The
scenario argument is more gorilla dust---we've just finished
discussing how few WITP players play the scenarios. And each of the
WITP ones should be re-done by fans with AE's editor pretty fast. The
OOB in WITP isn't that wrong in every one.
So what's left is a gamble by Matrix that you can strong-arm enough
fence-sitters and newbies into buying WITP, because if you made it
possible for them to go backwards from AE to WITP you know they never
would. Never would. These games take RT years to play. WHY would you
exhaust AE's possibilities and THEN buy a lesser version for more
money?
Fine. If you want to strong-arm because you have a unique product
pair, give it a try. But PLEASE stop with the "We're trying to protect
players from themselves, the poor dears. We don't want them to try AE
and get overwhelmed."
It's beneath you.
Steve
Erik
> sorry Erik, a "game" is something you buy, install and play.
> if you need a game already installed then its a patch. it might be a very
> expansive patch but a patch none the less.
> do you expect to sell this patch to new buyers?
> you've made it a $130.00. wow , just wow.
Is it a "patch" if it doesn't install on top of the original game,
doesn't share any files with the original game, doesn't prevent you
still playing the original game and took more time to develop than the
original game? Sorry, but I don't agree with this. I realize this is
not a typical arrangement, but it is what it is and comparing it to
mainstream game conventions will not make it into something different.
Regards,
- Erik
Steve Bartman
wrote:
>No one is forcing anyone to buy, if you're happy with WITP, stay with
Well, you made those points "with adjustments." There was a strong
implication that AE rode on top of WITP, not along side. And no one
questioned the similar price because they thought #1 was a technical
necessity due to the ride-on-top.
What this model is, really, is a "tax" on non-former-WITP buyers, done
in order to keep the AE price lower for former WITP customers. Without
the strong-arm bundling for newbies and fence-sitters, you've said on
the forum that AE's price would have to be higher. You're rewarding a
past purchase (in some cases over four years ago) using the wallets of
newbies and fence sitters.
I know you're going to do it, but please try to be up front with why.
It's because you can.
Steve
Erik
and that you could continue all your WITP games after AE was
installed.
I think the point being overlooked here is that we've played AE.
We've played it, we love it, but we have enough experience with the
market to realize that because it doesn't have as big a scenario
selection as WITP and is also more complex, it is not ideal as a game
to just jump into for new players. AE was designed and is being
marketed to existing WITP owners primarily. For others, we recommend
buying WITP first and seeing if you like it. WITP is an outstanding
game that is not in any way a "tax" on people who buy it. It's
excellent gaming value in and of itself. Players who feel that they
need more can then get AE or stick with WITP. There is absolutely no
requirement to buy both at once and WITP will receive another free
update (five years after release) after AE's release that fixes a
number of the issues AE's development allowed us to fix.
Regards,
- Erik
Ray O'Hara
Regards,
- Erik
if i have to have A to play B then B is a patch.
make AE a stand alone game.
thewood
Your logic to me says you are saying that you are making a decision
for your cusomters and prospects. Why don't you go so far as to not
let someone play AE until they reach a certain level in WITP?
I beg you to take a step back and look at the somewhat tortured logic
you are presenting. It obviously, looking at these forums and others,
is just plain rubbing people the wrong way. It is something very
unMatrix-like. Its putting you in the realm of spin masters at BFC.
Be upfront if this is a way to subsidiize the work on AE through sales
of WITP. If its some contractual obligation to GG, just say it is.
DirkG
As a fence-sitter, I've seen the notice a long time ago about the
requirement to own WITP for AE. However, while I would consider paying
for a standalone AE, I'm not going to pay for both. I often await the
"gold edition" of a game so I can get the add-ons, updates, and scenario
packs. Think Tiller's Campaign Series games. This would be like having
to buy the original West Front while Century of Warfare was sitting on
the shelf. Even then, when one could find West Front it was greatly
reduced in price.
It really doesn't bother me...it is what it is. But I'll continue to
pass on this series.
thewood
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yeah, it seems AE is really built for the 30-40 regular posters at
Matrix. These seem to be the people screaming about issues with
WITP. So Matrix is saying put your money where your mouth is. I
can't imagine a new player coughing up around $130 and then playing
the inferior product. You can say all you want about WITP being equal
to AE, but a quick look at the forums shows it isn't. How many people
start out laying an unpatched game if there is a patch available. A
similar comparison.
Erik
> I beg you to take a step back and look at the somewhat tortured logic
> you are presenting. It obviously, looking at these forums and others,
> is just plain rubbing people the wrong way. It is something very
> unMatrix-like. Its putting you in the realm of spin masters at BFC.
> Be upfront if this is a way to subsidiize the work on AE through sales
> of WITP. If its some contractual obligation to GG, just say it is.
There's no question that keeping both games on the market is a
financial benefit, but we also feel that WITP and AE are different
enough in terms of complexity and scenario content that there is a
real reason to do that. Over the years, we've had a lot of experience
with customers who play UV but find WITP too much, who play WITP and
find that it's about all they can handle or who but WITP but never get
very far because of the complexity.
AE, although it has many, many improvements including to usability, is
still also a new step forward in terms of complexity and detail.
Frankly, we have no idea how many people will decide that it's the
right combination of scale and complexity for them. Obviously, we
hope a lot will. But we don't feel that right now AE is a full
replacement for WITP except for those veteran WITP players who have
mastered WITP. We made AE for them and I think it will make them very
happy. For those who have not yet played WITP, we believe WITP is a
better game to start with than AE.
Ultimately the decision we're putting in front of WITP players is "do
you think AE is worth $60?". We definitely think it is and now that
WITP has been out for 5 years especially those that have played it
since the start I think feel the same way. For new players who wanted
AE but didn't have WITP, I realize the pricing does not look very
friendly. Maybe in the future that will improve. We are going to be
running a discount on WITP for a limited time during AE's release to
make the climb a bit less steep for those that do feel they want to
get both games or want to just try WITP at a discounted price before
deciding about AE.
Regards,
- Erik
thewood
There are not many people in this arena that have negative perceptions
towards Matrix, and that is very unique here. With this type of spin
you are setting yourself up for some pretty negative backlash. I hope
the it is worth it.
Erik
> There are not many people in this arena that have negative perceptions
> towards Matrix, and that is very unique here. With this type of spin
> you are setting yourself up for some pretty negative backlash. I hope
> the it is worth it.
Ok.. honestly, I'm kind of stunned by these responses. Everything I
have posted here and on our forum is true. I have also been open
about the fact that AE would require WITP and that AE would not be
much less in cost than WITP for months. To me, this sudden backlash
is really surprising. If I understand you correctly, you'd be happier
if AE were a stand-alone $100 game and also you'd like us to openly
discuss contractual/financial details in public. I'm sorry, but all I
can say is that yes, ongoing sales of WITP and AE will help fund the
ongoing support and development of these games and future games like
these.
Frankly, I figured that by now, most people who wanted WITP had
already gotten it and that existing WITP owners were our primary
market.
Regards,
- Erik
thewood
My final response is, I am stunned you are stunned. The AE crowd is a
pretty cloistered crowd. It wasn't easy getting info out of those
forums. To think you can expect new people to plop down $130 in the
middle of one of the largest economic downturns in a generation or two
and not expect a little backlash is surprising. I don't remember
anyone saying you had to spend $50 on UV and then $80 on WITP because
its too hard. I think its a little more honest to say $100 on AE and
scrap WITP. Then give a small discount to previous owners of WITP.
In my perception, you are saying you bought a flawed product in WITP.
Here is the upgraded unflawed version for another $70. It seems to me
you are really marketing this whole thing that noisy group on your
forum, but hoping to sucker a few noobs on $130.
Giftzwerg
@o36g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>, thew...@verizon.net says...
climb a bit less steep for those that do feel they want to
> There are not many people in this arena that have negative perceptions
> towards Matrix, and that is very unique here. With this type of spin
> you are setting yourself up for some pretty negative backlash. I hope
> the it is worth it.
The fuck?
RESET. What the fuck?
Regarding the above, I feel like I've bought some ticket on an insane-
clown rollercoaster.
Is the problem that an "Admiral's Edition" of a game incorporates stuff
that adds-on to the non-Admiral's edition?
Whew. Marketing dumbasses losing their shirts selling an enhanced
version of something already popular.
--
Giftzwerg
***
"The Karimojong blame the spell of calamities like drought and disease
to the 'angry gods'. Little do they know that their area is suffering
the consequences of a larger problem, climate change."
- Joseph Miti
"Ah, the cognitive dissonance that can result when two pagan religions
debate the cause of some ill fortune."
- Giftzwerg
Ralph Hoenig
While I too am a bit miffed about this whole thing, all that has realy
changed (at least for me, as I wasn�t aware AE would not use anything from
my old WITP installation *) is the reasoning for needing WITP (and it was
stated, I belive a couple of times, that AE would probably be too complex
for a complete newbe, so trying WITP first was highly recomended).
While the reason(s) something is done, sometimes make all the difference,
arguing the price a new customer has to pay *now* doesn�t make a lot of
sense, because nothing has changed. He was allways required to buy WITP + AE
if he wanted AE from the get go.
FWIW, I think it would have been better to raise the price of AE a bit and
to grant previous WITP owners a discount, but that is, of course, not my
decicion. Just have a HUGE bright red sign on the buy-page that screams at
any customers that WITP experience is highly reccomended.
* I wasn�t aware that this was stated on the matrix forum, but also not the
other way around. When I read "WITP required", my brain just made the
connection
Ralph Hoenig, Germany
M. Ziegler
be released update "BtR2".
Michael
eddys...@hotmail.com
wrote:
> FWIW, I think it would have been better to raise the price of AE a bit and
> to grant previous WITP owners a discount, but that is, of course, not my
> decicion.
+1
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
ryand...@yahoo.com
the smartest guy on the block). But if Matrix have a market who will,
why not offer it and make the $$$. Heck, get working on WITP:
President's Edition. I won't be buying (never buying from Matrix
again) but how many things of these are they going to have to ship
before they score a few bucks?
Bloodstar
Erik,
Honestly, but quite honestly, you fail to realize (????) that after you
release AE then large amount of people who play PBEM WITP will MIGRATE to
AE.
One example: Who play OPERATIONAL ART OF WAR CENTURY OF WARFARE still? You
succeeded to make TOAW 3 PBEM platform and THE SAME THING (!!!!) will happen
with AE!!!!
It's not really hard to understand this. So you will just anger customers
over this as some say in one of biggest ecomomic crisis in recent history
where people do count every dollar they spent. That's completely insane or
stubborn, or I don't know what...
Sorry.
All people that you made to play WITP and then later AE in the future will
be just JEALOUS to those guys already playing AE.
Even at that I would never market game for 100$ because it can be played for
years to come. Production cost that you have simply doesn't justify this.
And I know that wargamers are niche within niche as I INVENTED THAT TERM!
For God Sake when I met sales manager of Cryo we talked about computer games
in Hammersmith Hotel in London after one ECTS trade show and he told me that
"games are nice niche for trading, like mobile phones etc". We talked about
European markets and how much games they sell in each country. And later
after that meeting I have invented term "niche within niche" for wargames.
So when you are using that term then be polite enough to give me credit for
that. LOL
This game is just not suitable for this kind of marketing approach as many
people here noticed. Make it a stand alone product at 70$ and that's it. Not
50$ but not 100$ either.
Sorry, simply sorry but I disagree. It's your business of course so run it
as you please but we are here not ussual rednecks with IQ 50.
Mario
Erik
Ok, I had a night to sleep on some of the feedback here. Let me try
to approach this again, because we do most definitely care what you
all think.
War in the Pacific is, in our opinion, a unique game. We looked at
that game and made some unique decisions on how to proceed with
developing, marketing and pricing AE. Unfortunately, these decisions
don't fit neatly into one of the existing marketing "boxes" that
you've seen before. I think the key misunderstanding in all this
though is that from our point of view, everything we did was with
existing owners of WITP in mind. New customers who did not own WITP
were a secondary concern. This may seem strange, but again WITP is
unique and for a number of reasons we feel this is the right way to
go. The decisions we made were intended to make things as convenient
and affordable as we could for existing owners of WITP.
First, having AE share files or not share files with WITP is a minor
technical issue. We could easily have it share files or not. We
decided early on to have it not share files so that customers could
continue playing their modded or unmodded WITP games without any
disruption. We didn't see how it would be a good thing to have AE
share files and create possible issues for WITP game continuation.
Having AE share files and having it not disrupt WITP in any way would
be a bigger technical issue.
Every "expansion" you've ever bought could have been a stand-alone
game, it's just a technical issue to do it one way or the other and
not a particularly difficult one. For those of you who see it as a
big difference ethically, I want you to understand that the reason we
made the decision way back when to do it this way was specifically
because we did not want to inconvenience existing WITP players.
Second, the pricing. We could have priced AE as a stand-alone game
and not had it require WITP. This would have increased its price
significantly and also required us to offer a discount to owners of
WITP. The only way to offer a discount is to check serial numbers,
create a discount coupon unique to each serial number (only one per
serial number) and then have customers use that in the store. We've
done this before, it's not a technical challenge.
However, in our experience it is definitely a hassle for some
customers. This type of route creates many possible points of
failure, from customers who can't find their old serial number, to
customers who lose their coupon code (or don't receive it) to
customers who use it and place the order incorrectly and then can't
use it again, etc. We decided that rather than make existing WITP
owners jump through these hoops, if we had AE require WITP then the
purchase price could already be set at the discount level and all that
existing WITP owners would have to do is buy the game as they would
buy any other.
Third, new customers. I've been told that we are strong-arming them,
thinking for them, etc. I suppose I can see how this can come
across. The truth though is that AE was always for existing owners of
WITP first. That's a pretty big crowd and we felt that it's also the
group that would likely be responsible for 90% of the sales of AE. We
did not see AE as having a lot of appeal to customers that had already
decided, over the course of the five years it's been on the market,
that WITP was not for them. Still, based on recent feedback we made
the decision to discount WITP for a limited time to give folks who
were having second thoughts about missing out on WITP now that AE was
coming out a chance to test the waters.
I am also telling you our real thoughts and discussion when I say that
we really feel that AE is not a game for someone to really jump into
without any previous experience with WITP. We think that for WITP
players, AE is a wonderful thing, but for people who have never played
WITP, AE is not just "WITP 2.0". It has a much larger map, many more
units and many more rules that are based on increasing realism but
that a player who is not already steeped in the real history of the
War in the Pacific may not understand. It also has fewer scenarios
than WITP and fewer small scenarios. It has just enough of those to
help WITP vets get their feet wet before jumping into the new grand
campaign, basically.
Having AE released on its own and having people jump right into it
without prior WITP experience would, in our opinion, have created a
potential for a lot of misunderstanding and confusion and unhappy new
customers. I think existing WITP players will be delighted with AE.
Someone who has not played WITP might be lost at sea though.
Finally, it is to our benefit to have both WITP and AE on the market.
First, while we love AE and believe it will do well, there is always
risk. Taking WITP off the market, with its smaller scale and greater
initial accessibility as well as increased scenario selection didn't
make a lot of sense to us. Pricing AE at $100 or more stand-alone in
this economy also seemed likely to provoke a knee jerk reaction (at
this point, I think frankly we were going to take heat whatever we
did). More importantly, WITP and AE both fund ongoing development -
WITP primarily is a help to funding 2by3 and AE primarily will help
fund ongoing development of the WITP series.
This was our thought process as far as why we made the decisions we
made. We're well aware of what the economy is doing now. What I
think some folks here don't realize is that we really do see existing
WITP players as our market and the way we set things up was
deliberately intended to make new players who don't have WITP think
twice about whether they want to step all the way up to AE in one
jump. I think this is surprising to a lot of folks, but we felt that
our primary concern should be addressing the needs of the people we
think will make up 90% of AE's sales and making sure that the pricing
and procedures were set to make it as enjoyable as possible for them.
Regards,
- Erik
Briarroot
>> Now we see where world is going...
>
> ie. Just take the money in whatever way you find convinient. Even if you
> have to steal it. And this is exactly the right word for this - a legal
> robbery by Matrix Games, Inc.
> They should have to start hitting Banks in New York some day.
>
Oh come off it, Mario! I realize that English isn't your native
language, but you *really* ought to understand the meaning of "robbery"
by now. Matrix isn't "stealing" anything from anybody. No one is
forced to buy AE or WitP. You can call the games "outrageously
overpriced" if you think they are, and I might agree with you, but
that's all that can truthfully be said about them.
WitP sells for approximately twice the usual price for PC games, so it's
not unreasonable to expect its expansion to also sell for twice as much
as most expansion packs. I don't like it, but then I don't have to like
it. Do you see how that works?
--
"We've gone astray from first principles. We've lost sight of the rule
that individual freedom and ingenuity are at the very core of everything
that we've accomplished. Government's first duty is to protect the
people, not run their lives." - Ronald Reagan
Briarroot
> Ah, lovely. Before this kind of misinformation spreads, let me chime
> in...
>
> AE is not an expansion pack.
>
That's a bit disingenuous, to say the least. Since AE *requires* WitP
it *is* an expansion pack. You can call it anything you like, and I
understand that it's a gigantic rewrite of the original game, but that's
not the point.
> ...
> Most of our customers who own WITP actually say that it's the biggest
> gaming bargain they ever bought, in terms of how much entertainment
> they got per buck. If AE did not require ownership of WITP, it's
> stand alone price would be significantly higher.
>
It's none of my business (but when has that ever stopped a UseNet
poster? <g>) but it seems to me that, by requiring ownership of WitP,
you guys are limiting your market to those of us who already own and
love WitP - a small subset of the potential customers for a brand new
monster game like AE. I'm sure this wasn't a casual decision for you
guys, but I can't help but think that you aren't going to find all that
many new customers willing to fork over the amount necessary to buy
*both* games, even discounting WitP for "a limited time."
Anyhow, good luck! ;-)
CaligulasHorse
> Re-posting this here from our forum:
> Ok, I had a night to sleep on some of the feedback here. Let me try
> to approach this again, because we do most definitely care what you
> all think.
>
> War in the Pacific is, in our opinion, a unique game. We looked at
> that game and made some unique decisions on how to proceed with
> developing, marketing and pricing AE. Unfortunately, these decisions
> don't fit neatly into one of the existing marketing "boxes" that
> you've seen before. I think the key misunderstanding in all this
> though is that from our point of view, everything we did was with
> existing owners of WITP in mind. New customers who did not own WITP
> were a secondary concern.
Don't you have to take a long-tail view in this business - eg WitP as
a vehicle for attracting a modest but steady stream of new buyers for
many years, some of whom will convert themselves into addicts & be
prime candidates for an up-sell to AE & whatever else you plan to do
with the franchise in the future.
If that's a reasonable way to look at things, then I'd have thought
this might be the way to go: Position the two as different games - no
need to have WitP to run AE; AE for the alpha pacwar fanatic; WitP for
the fanatic who also has a life etc. Lower the price of WitP and
maybe invest a little in more automation, interface improvements etc
to reduce both the $$$ and time-commitment barriers to purchase.
Raise the price of AE - anybody who wants to commit to it shouldn't be
particularly price sensitive at these levels & where you really have
an opportunity to value sell, why not go for it; but perhaps give a
small limited time discount for AE to current WitP owners as a
promotional/feel good thing.
Anyway, it's a little hard to see the rationale for linking the two in
the way you have. If you have saturated the WitP market as you say,
then it doesn't seem necessary to prevent AE canabilizing it. If you
haven't, then I'd have thought the best model would be to price WitP
low and AE high.
But then again it's possible you've thought about this more than I
have :)
Briarroot
The price you're asking for AE doesn't bother me because I was expecting
it and I already own WitP. I *do* find it surprising that you're
*requiring* WitP and thus severely limiting the game's potential market;
but I'll shut up about that since it's your business not mine.
Never mind Mario, he's a bit loony when it comes to money and the buying
& selling of things. I put it down to the lingering effects of
Communism. <wicked grin> And his nutty crusade against Matrix is just
that: nutty; so just let it all roll off your back!
Briarroot
>
> Frankly, I figured that by now, most people who wanted WITP had
> already gotten it and that existing WITP owners were our primary
> market.
>
But why force the issue? Even if the above is true, why limit yourself?
Why not toss AE out there as a complete stand-alone game at a price of
$70-80 and see if it can drum up some sales on its own? If it's as good
a game as you think it is then maybe it will generate some interested
buzz in the wargaming community that *doesn't* own WitP. By making new
customers buy both WitP and AE for a combined $130, you're effectively
telling everyone: "Fuck off. We don't want your business unless you
already own WitP!" Yes, I know that new buyers would really be getting
two games, but why make them do that if they don't want to? Why *not*
just let them buy AE?
James D Burns
> I think the key misunderstanding in all this
> though is that from our point of view, everything we did was with
> existing owners of WITP in mind. New customers who did not own WITP
> were a secondary concern.
As a member of your target market, I'm perfectly happy with the pricing. In
fact I'd have gladly paid twice that, but you'd have to be an active member
of the WitP community to understand why AE is worth that amount of money.
Those bitching about the price don't really understand the difference in the
two games. To them it's just another game or expansion to a game, they'd
never have the patience to delve deep enough into things to understand
everything that has changed/gone into AE.
AE should be looked at more along the lines of what Advanced Squad leader
was to Squad Leader. ASL was designed to be sold to SL gamers, but it cost
far more money once you had paid for all the different nationality
expansions that came out after ASL was first released. SL only had three
games total I think (maybe 4), ASL had a dozen or more and was a far more
complex game. A large cadre of original SL gamers refused to move to ASL due
to the increased complexities of the system. I bet we see a similar group of
WitP gamers who refuse to move to AE as well since it is most likely far
more detailed and complex than WitP.
Jim
Bloodstar
> it and I already own WitP. I *do* find it surprising that you're
> *requiring* WitP and thus severely limiting the game's potential market;
> but I'll shut up about that since it's your business not mine.
>
> Never mind Mario, he's a bit loony when it comes to money and the buying &
> selling of things. I put it down to the lingering effects of Communism.
> <wicked grin> And his nutty crusade against Matrix is just that: nutty;
> so just let it all roll off your back!
You can call that whatever you think but I am not on a crusade against
Matrix Games.
I am just not an ass kisser or hypocrite. I am honest person who tell you
exactly in THE FACE whatever I think.
And look again at my post. I am very intelligent person. Not that I now
praise myself but that is simply truth! It sound pathetic but what the heck,
I am intelligent person. You may disagree with me but you can't take that
from me (big grin).
And it is low kick from you to pull that "communism" thing against me again
and again. I am leftist but in some things I am maybe bigger capitalist than
maybe all of you combined! (big grin again).
In former Yugoslavia I was anti communistic oriented. When new hacienda
states emerged on The Balkans they were made with most disgusting commie -
nationalistic scum and I was again AGAINST THEM! So no way padre that you
can put me into communistic block. I am quality person. You may believe it
or not, I don't care if you don't believe it. LOL
I have that creative way of thinking.
And please - I don't think that place of origin is all that important.
Biggest thing for all is DNA. So you may represent intelligent part of USA -
but what about your rednecks? You don't even want to deal with them, let
alone me. Or me with rednecks from The Balkans. LOL
What I don't like - and that is that emerging fascist, nationalistic view of
some that they are better than others. Anywhere. I don't like that. Be it
American nationalism, French, British, Croatian, Serbian or from Uranus. I
despise also xenophobia, racism included.
In fact that nationalistic teachings "we are better than others" is seed for
future conflicts in the World.
Bloodstar
> but you *really* ought to understand the meaning of "robbery" by now.
> Matrix isn't "stealing" anything from anybody. No one is forced to buy AE
> or WitP. You can call the games "outrageously overpriced" if you think
> they are, and I might agree with you, but that's all that can truthfully
> be said about them.
>
> WitP sells for approximately twice the usual price for PC games, so it's
> not unreasonable to expect its expansion to also sell for twice as much as
> most expansion packs. I don't like it, but then I don't have to like it.
> Do you see how that works?
Don't do this. Simply don't do this. You read my posts for years and you can
already know that I EXAGGERATE THINGS! LOL
Simply read some of my posts like exagerration.
In philosophic circles that is called SOPHISM. Or torturing your intelectual
opponent menthaly. LOL
Exaggeration is good sometimes as when you exaggerate then some things are
better described.
Words are like paintings. So when you write something you paint. See?
BTW, also you don't need to take Usenet so deadly serious. Do you?
What I don't like in this approach is that when AE will be released then new
customers who buy WITP + AE will maybe not even play WITP and simply just
play AE BECAUSE all best PBEM players will migrate to AE!
What will you say to me THEN?
Your PBEM buddy for example don't want to play WITP because he played it to
death and you want to play against him so you exactly throwed money to buy
requirement for AE and that is WITP (and for example you never played WITP).
So you may put this thing in nicely wrapped boy but I call that a thievery.
Crude but I call that exactly that. You may call that whatever you want.
I know that you will now write 10000 posts with your ussual Strawmen tactics
just like in case of Stardock :o)))))) You may cut the crap in the
beginning. LOL
Becausen no art with English will beat any hypocrisy that is possible in
continuation of this debate. If discussion turns that way then simply I say
to you : I agree to disagree with you. And good old Voltaire...
Mario
Bloodstar
Jim you are pompous ass. Simple as that.
Bloodstar
soon is my kinderbett time :-)))
So, tomorrow.
Or as Americans would say: LATER! :)
Bloodstar
> So you may put this thing in nicely wrapped boy but I call that a
> thievery.
LOL box not boy... god.. that happens when you type too fast.
And about my English. Gawd, my English is very good. My writting skills are
very good when I write slowly. Errors happen when I write fast.
But I admit that I speak horrible English but just because I don't speak
English in everyday life.
It is arrogant when some native English speakers beging to nitpick about my
English when they are rednecks and don't know any other language other than
English. And I speak two languages. Russian I knew very good but I forgotten
it later. And I never learned English in school, only by ME & MYSELF.
So excuse me all language fascists but if you do know just one language then
you are one league below me.
Thank you for listening.
LOL
MJB
"James D Burns" <jburn...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:IKs6m.2008$TL....@newsfe25.iad...
>
> AE should be looked at more along the lines of what Advanced Squad leader
> was to Squad Leader.
I was thinking the exact same thing this morning - right down to the fact
that you had to buy the original squad leader game (because of the first
four mapboards) in order to play advanced squad leader IIRC - my ASL stuff
is years long-gone. I was one of the people who played squad leader hard
from publication and bought the three expansions - COI, COD and GI. And I
bought the loose-leaf bound ASL rulebook and the 'paratroop' expansion.
After the release of ASL I let my subscription to the General expire and
never bought another product from Avalon Hill again. Not just another ASL
module - I completely quit buying from the company.
Once a company alienates a customer they might never, ever be able to get
them back.
--
MJB
Mr. Tin's Miniature Painting Workshop:
http://web.newsguy.com/Mrtinsworkshop/
Bloodstar
> not unreasonable to expect its expansion to also sell for twice as much as
> most expansion packs. I don't like it, but then I don't have to like it.
> Do you see how that works?
Again Strawmen of yours...
Expansion packs in gaming business are ussually 20 $. So exactly half the
price of original game. Or 30$ max for most gloriuos content. Check it out.
AE is somekind of expansion but sells like stand alone product.
What you defend here are some sort of Matrix Games INVENTION because I
simply wait that you find me another case in software gaming business like
this!
And mind you you are all rednecks compared to me except maybe Oleg, and
Vinzenzo because I have been gaming journalist for years and met all biggest
game designers in the world.
How many of you can say that they have met Sid Meier in person? LOL
So I know few things about the games. So you cannot just slap YUGO sticker
to me when you speak about the games with me.
Dimensional Traveler
Leader to buy ASL. The map-boards do not count. There were IIRC 30 to
40 of those and one did not have to buy the entire SL game just to get
those since they were sold individually. Most weren't included in _any_
of the SL or ASL expansions. AE doesn't require _any_ files from WiTP,
indeed they aren't even compatible.
Personally I think its a bad decision. Matrix may be thinking that AE
will only be bought by people who have already played WiTP but that
doesn't mean they should be deliberately denying sales to those who
haven't. (Not to mention that its an arrogant attitude, like they
couldn't possibly be wrong.) As for the argument that WiTP virgins
would just be overwhelmed, the poor dears, that's just insulting. Did
they not notice the fact that most WiTP players immediately leaped head
first in to the campaign game? (Personally I find it revealing about
the company's attitude towards its potential customers. And I'm sure
that's going to get an indignant response from Erik.)
--
Things I learned from MythBusters #57: Never leave a loaded gun in an
exploding room.
Ray O'Hara
ASL killed AH.
people stayed away in droves.
but you could just buy ASL you didn't have to buy SL first and then buy ASL.
bennyb
play a full two turns, this way us mere mortals can have a look at a
game we will never play; This will save us from suffering too much
envy and give us the novelty buzz of seeing lots of hexes.
If you do get through a full two turns of AE, you're a WitP grognard
and won't have a problem forking out $130. Everyone wins! :P
James D Burns
"Dimensional Traveler" <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:4a5aa209$0$1616$742e...@news.sonic.net...
> Matrix may be thinking that AE will only be bought by people who have
> already played WiTP but that doesn't mean they should be deliberately
> denying sales to those who haven't.
Wow, judging by the replies, I should have known better than to get in the
way of wargamers practicing their second favorite pastime... being
cheapskates. What's a full tank of gas these days, $50.00, $60.00? how many
times a week do you have to fill up your tank? They aren't charging that
much more for the games and you get literally 1000s of hours out of them if
you like playing them. I've played WitP for years now and will only be
stopping to move on to AE.
Maybe I missed something, but I thought Erik said the reason they went this
route is so people wouldn't have to pay the $130.00 or so they would charge
for a stand alone game of AE. Instead they can pay just for WitP first to
see if they like it before investing the rest into AE. How is that denying
anyone sales? I read it as an attempt to allow people to test the waters
first without investing 100% of the cost.
And if you think AE should be as cheap as regular games just because you
think that's the market. You're not being fair to Matrix nor to the dozens
and dozens of people who have been working on this project for years without
any pay at all. I doubt anyone will be making up half of what it cost them
to do this thing at these prices. That's why I say it's worth twice what
they decided to charge for it.
Jim
James D Burns
"Ray O'Hara" <raymon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:h3e8oq$eq7$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
> but you could just buy ASL you didn't have to buy SL first and then buy
> ASL.
>
Right, but that wasn't my point. the point was it was designed to be
marketed to an existing market of fans. Thus it was far more complex because
of all the input/requests they'd collated from fans over the years that they
integrated into the game.
SL was deigned to be marketed to a non-existent virgin marketplace, so
things like complexity and cost were of paramount concern to the designers.
AE was developed by very dedicated hardcore fans of WitP. It was designed
with the intent of adding far more complexity and realism to the system from
jump. There was no thought given to introducing new players to the game,
that is what first UV and then WitP were for. No one recommends new players
buy AE right away, get UV or WitP first to see if you like it. A lot of the
changes to AE are very nuanced changes, only a dedicated veteran of the
first game would even notice or understand those changes.
And I'm not demeaning anyone or being pompous by saying this, it's a fact,
you need to really know the nuts and bolts of the game to appreciate a lot
of what has been changed and why it was changed. You don't have to know it
to play and enjoy the game, but you'll likely feel like the two games are
very similar or the same if you don't understand the inner workings of
things. But you'd be very wrong about that.
Jim
Dimensional Traveler
>
> "Dimensional Traveler" <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote in message
> news:4a5aa209$0$1616$742e...@news.sonic.net...
>
>> Matrix may be thinking that AE will only be bought by people who have
>> already played WiTP but that doesn't mean they should be deliberately
>> denying sales to those who haven't.
>
> Wow, judging by the replies, I should have known better than to get in
> the way of wargamers practicing their second favorite pastime... being
> cheapskates. What's a full tank of gas these days, $50.00, $60.00? how
> many times a week do you have to fill up your tank? They aren't charging
> that much more for the games and you get literally 1000s of hours out of
> them if you like playing them. I've played WitP for years now and will
> only be stopping to move on to AE.
>
> Maybe I missed something, but I thought Erik said the reason they went
> this route is so people wouldn't have to pay the $130.00 or so they
> would charge for a stand alone game of AE. Instead they can pay just for
> WitP first to see if they like it before investing the rest into AE. How
> is that denying anyone sales? I read it as an attempt to allow people to
> test the waters first without investing 100% of the cost.
>
be a good test. A large part of what AE was supposed to be, and what a
lot of WiTP players are expecting it to be, is a _fixed_ version of
WiTP. How does forcing customers to play the flawed, beta version first
induce them to buy the new and improved version? The better decision,
both from a business point of view and in terms of respecting your
potential customers is to _not_ force them to go thru that kind of crap.
(And BTW, where exactly did I say anything about what price they
should charge for it?)
eddys...@hotmail.com
> ASL killed AH.
> people stayed away in droves.
Don Greenwood, co-developer of the original Squad Leader and later the
ASL guy at AH got interviewed in an episode of the Point2Point podcast
and he had some interesting stuff to say about it. It was during that
brief period of time in the seventies when it looked like wargames
were becoming mainstream. It was not only AH, SPI was releasing 30
games per year and many other companies were jumping in as well
resulting in the market getting flooded with wargames. More than it
could handle in fact.
In order to stand-out in that crowd Don Greenwood and AH decided to
take their best-seller (SL) and do a super-de-luxe version of it which
became ASL.
What killed AH was a combination of D&D hitting the scene, a flooded
market, too many fixed costs (staff) and too many mediocre games in
the pipeline, not ASL which was a success.
... and still is : the ASL Starter Kits are *very* popular and MMP
build a complete business out of providing new stuff for ASL players.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
eddys...@hotmail.com
Maybe create a T-shirt which says : "Hardcore grog here - suffered
through 2 turns of AE" :)
I had to laugh because you know what my exposure to WitP is ? Gawk in
awe when Mark-Jan (Grouchy) explains the basics of the game to someone
at a convention and gives them the grand tour of the game. That's it :
stare in amazement, mesmerized, brain getting dizzy because it can't
handle the scope and complexity of it all.
So, yes, I'd love to see even a 0-turn demo-version of it, just to
look at it and click around a bit.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
eddys...@hotmail.com
> Bloodstar wrote:
> >> Now we see where world is going...
>
> > ie. Just take the money in whatever way you find convinient. Even if you
> > have to steal it. And this is exactly the right word for this - a legal
> > robbery by Matrix Games, Inc.
> > They should have to start hitting Banks in New York some day.
>
> Oh come off it, Mario! I realize that English isn't your native
> language, but you *really* ought to understand the meaning of "robbery"
> by now.
Maybe something like this : a guy who bought 3 pro licences of Jutland
- that's $165 - and is now told to wait a week for his licences to
reset ... if he's lucky.
http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?t=86262
I can always count on SES to provide a funny start of the week. Their
avatar ought to be an eagle aiming a bazooka at itself.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Giftzwerg
@l31g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
> What killed AH was a combination of D&D hitting the scene, a flooded
> market, too many fixed costs (staff) and too many mediocre games in
> the pipeline, not ASL which was a success.
I dunno. I knew *tons* of people who played SL / COI / COD / and GIAV
to tatters ... and who just threw up their hands in disgust at the
thought of having to learn it all again - and *buy it all again*.
--
Giftzwerg
***
"The Karimojong blame the spell of calamities like drought and disease
to the 'angry gods'. Little do they know that their area is suffering
the consequences of a larger problem, climate change."
- Joseph Miti
"Ah, the cognitive dissonance that can result when two pagan religions
debate the cause of some ill fortune."
- Giftzwerg
Giftzwerg
@x25g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, ben.sm...@gmail.com says...
> Matrix could provide a demo download which lets us read the manual and
> play a full two turns, this way us mere mortals can have a look at a
> game we will never play; This will save us from suffering too much
> envy and give us the novelty buzz of seeing lots of hexes.
They might find that the average customer couldn't tell the demo from
the full version.
eddys...@hotmail.com
> In article <66a0f385-6dc9-4cf0-b422-191abb4f8894
>
> > What killed AH was a combination of D&D hitting the scene, a flooded
> > market, too many fixed costs (staff) and too many mediocre games in
> > the pipeline, not ASL which was a success.
>
> I dunno. I knew *tons* of people who played SL
raises hand.
> / COI / COD / and GIAV
> to tatters ... and who just threw up their hands in disgust at the
> thought of having to learn it all again - and *buy it all again*.
Yet enough of them did to make the ASL line the most valuable piece of
AH. If it weren't for Curt Schilling putting his money behind it, MMP
could never have acquired the rights to it.
Basically what you're saying is that by forcing SL gamers to buy it
all over again, AH lost the hearts and minds of gamers, which then
ensured the downfall of the company. Well, I think AH just had too
many below-average games in the later years, with the odd exception
like Breakout Normandy. This, coupled with a top-heavy company was a
disaster waiting to happen.
Contrary to what many believe, even for AH publishing wargames wasn’t
really that profitable. I distinctly remember an interview with
Charles Roberts in which he said that Monarch basically printed
wargames when other business was slow and that most games struggled to
break even.
In the publishing business the key is to regularly score a hit. A
single hit can make up for a lot of mediocre also-rans and keep you
afloat. But when even a hit like Squad Leader only sold 50,000 copies
in its first year (Don Greenwood interview mentioned above), which is
peanuts compared to mainstream boardgames you're always fighting the
insolvency ghost. So when the slump started, not helped by a
disastrous entry in the pc wargaming world, there was little cash in
the bank and too much of a dinosaur attitude to survive.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Giftzwerg
@p15g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
> Basically what you're saying is that by forcing SL gamers to buy it
> all over again, AH lost the hearts and minds of gamers, which then
> ensured the downfall of the company. Well, I think AH just had too
> many below-average games in the later years, with the odd exception
> like Breakout Normandy. This, coupled with a top-heavy company was a
> disaster waiting to happen.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't know if ASL "killed" AH, but ASL
certainly killed my interest in the SQUAD LEADER franchise.
But I do agree with you that the main enemy of the board wargaming
industry at that point was too many mediocre games; it's kinda like the
flood of crap that killed off the Atari 2600 and crippled video gaming
until the years-later arrival of Nintendo.
> In the publishing business the key is to regularly score a hit. A
> single hit can make up for a lot of mediocre also-rans and keep you
> afloat. But when even a hit like Squad Leader only sold 50,000 copies
> in its first year (Don Greenwood interview mentioned above), which is
> peanuts compared to mainstream boardgames you're always fighting the
> insolvency ghost. So when the slump started, not helped by a
> disastrous entry in the pc wargaming world, there was little cash in
> the bank and too much of a dinosaur attitude to survive.
But look at the dreck they were churning out. AMOEBA WARS? GAME OF
TRIVIA? ICEBERGS? HEXAGONY? GAME OF SLANG?
GAME OF TRIVIA? Whew. I guess the creative juices for the naming of
games had long evaporated before that one hit the shelves. I guess it's
a mercy they died out before we got GAME OF MEN WITH GUNS.
eddys...@hotmail.com
> But look at the dreck they were churning out. AMOEBA WARS? GAME OF
> TRIVIA? ICEBERGS? HEXAGONY? GAME OF SLANG?
Yup - given 20/20 hindsight it's pretty easy to spot several factors
which made the demise of AH almost inevitable. The thing was that at
the time this was simply inconceivable. It was not only the 800 lb
gorilla, it was the foundation of the hobby.
Before anyone begins to draw parallels to Matrix today : they're very
far removed from the top-heavy, removed-from-reality company that AH
was.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
P.S. Game of Men with Guns :
http://www.worthingtongames.com/servlet/Detail?no=11
I hear it's a hoot :)
Briarroot
> On Jul 12, 9:20 pm, Erik <er...@matrixgames.com> wrote:
>> Re-posting this here from our forum:
>
>> Ok, I had a night to sleep on some of the feedback here. Let me try
>> to approach this again, because we do most definitely care what you
>> all think.
>>
>> War in the Pacific is, in our opinion, a unique game. We looked at
>> that game and made some unique decisions on how to proceed with
>> developing, marketing and pricing AE. Unfortunately, these decisions
>> don't fit neatly into one of the existing marketing "boxes" that
>> you've seen before. I think the key misunderstanding in all this
>> though is that from our point of view, everything we did was with
>> existing owners of WITP in mind. New customers who did not own WITP
>> were a secondary concern.
>
>
> Don't you have to take a long-tail view in this business - eg WitP as
> a vehicle for attracting a modest but steady stream of new buyers for
> many years, some of whom will convert themselves into addicts & be
> prime candidates for an up-sell to AE & whatever else you plan to do
> with the franchise in the future.
>
> If that's a reasonable way to look at things, then I'd have thought
> this might be the way to go: Position the two as different games - no
> need to have WitP to run AE; AE for the alpha pacwar fanatic; WitP for
> the fanatic who also has a life etc.
>
Exactly. I would even use the idea that AE is a much more *intense* and
*difficult* version of WitP as a selling point. I'd trumpet that fact
all over my sales pages with things like: "Don't Buy This Game Unless
You're a Serious WitP Fanatic!" ;-)
> Lower the price of WitP and
> maybe invest a little in more automation, interface improvements etc
> to reduce both the $$$ and time-commitment barriers to purchase.
> Raise the price of AE - anybody who wants to commit to it shouldn't be
> particularly price sensitive at these levels & where you really have
> an opportunity to value sell, why not go for it; but perhaps give a
> small limited time discount for AE to current WitP owners as a
> promotional/feel good thing.
>
You're not the only one who doesn't understand their decision.
--
The society that puts equality before freedom will end up with neither.
The society that puts freedom before equality will end up with a great
measure of both. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a
lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman
Briarroot
> Briarroot wrote:
>>
>> Never mind Mario, he's a bit loony when it comes to money and the buying &
>> selling of things. I put it down to the lingering effects of Communism.
>> <wicked grin> And his nutty crusade against Matrix is just that: nutty;
>> so just let it all roll off your back!
>
> You can call that whatever you think but I am not on a crusade against
> Matrix Games.
>
If you say so...
> I am just not an ass kisser or hypocrite. I am honest person who tell you
> exactly in THE FACE whatever I think.
>
Of course you can, and if what you think is stupid or meaningless, you
can also expect that to be pointed out to you.
> And look again at my post. I am very intelligent person. Not that I now
> praise myself but that is simply truth! It sound pathetic but what the heck,
> I am intelligent person. You may disagree with me but you can't take that
> from me (big grin).
>
Uh... if you says so!
> And it is low kick from you to pull that "communism" thing against me again
> and again. I am leftist but in some things I am maybe bigger capitalist than
> maybe all of you combined! (big grin again).
>
You can't be any kind of capitalist if you think that putting a high
price on a product is a form of "robbery." As I said, maybe you don't
really understand the word - buy you ought to if you're going to keep
using it!
> In former Yugoslavia I was anti communistic oriented. When new hacienda
> states emerged on The Balkans they were made with most disgusting commie -
> nationalistic scum and I was again AGAINST THEM! So no way padre that you
> can put me into communistic block. I am quality person. You may believe it
> or not, I don't care if you don't believe it. LOL
> I have that creative way of thinking.
>
At some point, "creativity" becomes mere bullshit and you may have
passed that point! ;-)
> And please - I don't think that place of origin is all that important.
> Biggest thing for all is DNA. So you may represent intelligent part of USA -
> but what about your rednecks? You don't even want to deal with them, let
> alone me. Or me with rednecks from The Balkans. LOL
>
You're veering off topic. I didn't hint that you're tainted by
Communism because of where you're from, but because of what you said.
See the difference?
> What I don't like - and that is that emerging fascist, nationalistic view of
> some that they are better than others. Anywhere. I don't like that. Be it
> American nationalism, French, British, Croatian, Serbian or from Uranus. I
> despise also xenophobia, racism included.
>
Some *are* better than others, but that fact isn't directly related to
birthplace, residence or political philosophy.
> In fact that nationalistic teachings "we are better than others" is seed for
> future conflicts in the World.
>
Future conflicts are inevitable, regardless of motive. It's human
nature so you may as well get used to the idea.
Briarroot
>> Oh come off it, Mario! I realize that English isn't your native language,
>> but you *really* ought to understand the meaning of "robbery" by now.
>> Matrix isn't "stealing" anything from anybody. No one is forced to buy AE
>> or WitP. You can call the games "outrageously overpriced" if you think
>> they are, and I might agree with you, but that's all that can truthfully
>> be said about them.
>>
>> WitP sells for approximately twice the usual price for PC games, so it's
>> not unreasonable to expect its expansion to also sell for twice as much as
>> most expansion packs. I don't like it, but then I don't have to like it.
>> Do you see how that works?
>
> Don't do this. Simply don't do this. You read my posts for years and you can
> already know that I EXAGGERATE THINGS! LOL
> Simply read some of my posts like exagerration.
>
Apparently, you don't know what the word "exaggeration" means either.
> In philosophic circles that is called SOPHISM. Or torturing your intelectual
> opponent menthaly. LOL
>
Nor do you understand the word "sophism." <sigh>
You're statement, that Matrix was committing "robbery" can't be a form
of exaggeration since it doesn't amplify or emphasize the facts, it
*distorts* them; and sophistry entails using a seemingly logical but
fatally flawed argument as a form of deception, like the frequently seen
"Strawman Argument."
You just struck out, 0 for 3!
> BTW, also you don't need to take Usenet so deadly serious. Do you?
>
Nyet, comrade! ;-)
> What I don't like in this approach is that when AE will be released then new
> customers who buy WITP + AE will maybe not even play WITP and simply just
> play AE BECAUSE all best PBEM players will migrate to AE!
>
> What will you say to me THEN?
>
I'd say: "so what?" All you're really saying here is that many WitP
players will be fascinated by AE, which is what Matrix is claiming.
> Your PBEM buddy for example don't want to play WITP because he played it to
> death and you want to play against him so you exactly throwed money to buy
> requirement for AE and that is WITP (and for example you never played WITP).
> So you may put this thing in nicely wrapped boy but I call that a thievery.
> Crude but I call that exactly that. You may call that whatever you want.
>
I call that worrying a lot about very little of consequence. Why don't
you give it a rest?
> I know that you will now write 10000 posts with your ussual Strawmen tactics
> just like in case of Stardock :o)))))) You may cut the crap in the
> beginning. LOL
>
One of us is confused... and it ain't me!
> Becausen no art with English will beat any hypocrisy that is possible in
> continuation of this debate. If discussion turns that way then simply I say
> to you : I agree to disagree with you. And good old Voltaire...
>
You can disagree with me about anything you please, but you can't make
your case properly unless you use English correctly.
(I'll be standing by for your expected accusation of cultural 'fascism.'
<g>)
Briarroot
<chuckle> Your typos I can translate, it's your misunderstanding and
misuse of basic concepts that I won't let pass!
eddys...@hotmail.com
> Bloodstar wrote:
> >> So you may put this thing in nicely wrapped boy but I call that a
> >> thievery.
>
> > LOL box not boy... god.. that happens when you type too fast.
>
> > And about my English. Gawd, my English is very good. My writting skills are
> > very good when I write slowly. Errors happen when I write fast.
> > But I admit that I speak horrible English but just because I don't speak
> > English in everyday life.
>
> > It is arrogant when some native English speakers beging to nitpick about my
> > English when they are rednecks and don't know any other language other than
> > English. And I speak two languages. Russian I knew very good but I forgotten
> > it later. And I never learned English in school, only by ME & MYSELF.
>
> > So excuse me all language fascists but if you do know just one language then
> > you are one league below me.
>
> <chuckle> Your typos I can translate, it's your misunderstanding and
> misuse of basic concepts that I won't let pass!
If ever a task was sisyphean ...
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Briarroot
>> WitP sells for approximately twice the usual price for PC games, so it's
>> not unreasonable to expect its expansion to also sell for twice as much as
>> most expansion packs. I don't like it, but then I don't have to like it.
>> Do you see how that works?
>
> Again Strawmen of yours...
>
Nope, you missed this one too.
> Expansion packs in gaming business are ussually 20 $. So exactly half the
> price of original game. Or 30$ max for most gloriuos content. Check it out.
>
> AE is somekind of expansion but sells like stand alone product.
>
That depends on specifics. I know that I've paid $30 for major
expansions to games that cost $50 in the past. Since AE is a major
rewrite, not really an expansion, it pricing is in line with past
practice. AE is being *sold* like an expansion, and that's the difference.
> What you defend here are some sort of Matrix Games INVENTION because I
> simply wait that you find me another case in software gaming business like
> this!
>
You must be drunk - again.
> And mind you you are all rednecks compared to me except maybe Oleg, and
> Vinzenzo because I have been gaming journalist for years and met all biggest
> game designers in the world.
>
> How many of you can say that they have met Sid Meier in person? LOL
>
> So I know few things about the games. So you cannot just slap YUGO sticker
> to me when you speak about the games with me.
>
Uh-huh. <whew!>
eddys...@hotmail.com
I can see you are wowed as well by the auhoritarian argument of a guy
who got canned from a job doing something vaguely related to wargaming
a decade ago.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
James D Burns
"Briarroot" <bria...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:maWdnYNxG7EBdMTX...@posted.toastnet...
> but I can't help but think that you aren't going to find all that many new
> customers willing to fork over the amount necessary to buy *both* games,
> even discounting WitP for "a limited time."
>
I would think their biggest concern would be the loss of the current WitP
crowd if they made it a stand alone game and charged $130.00 for it. This
way current owners don't have to pony up so much cash as they've already
invested the $70.00 or so for WitP.
Which market is bigger, new players to the system or the current fan base? I
guess they decided to play it safe and cater to the fan base. Either way
though, they were apparently going to piss of somebody no matter what they
did.
Jim
James D Burns
> (And BTW, where exactly did I say anything about what price they should
> charge for it?)
>
Sorry, it was late and I was trying to respond to multiple other posters
concerns in the post. Didn't mean to imply you had said that.
Jim
Briarroot
I also think that they're overlooking a distinct selling point by tying
the purchase of AE to WitP. "This Is a Very Complex and Deep Game" has
a certain flair to it, and might generate interest from grognards who
overlooked WitP. Telling prospective customers that they shouldn't
start a campaign in AE without first mastering WitP might actually
generate an "oh yeah?" response. ;-)
Briarroot
> ...
> Maybe I missed something, but I thought Erik said the reason they went
> this route is so people wouldn't have to pay the $130.00 or so they
> would charge for a stand alone game of AE.
>
If that's true, then I certainly missed it. Erik said that AE would be
*more* expensive than the price of $60-70 that he posted, but he did not
say how *much* more expensive. I don't think he meant $130 or else he
could have simply said they're giving WitP away free to purchasers of
AE, and giving those who already own WitP a major discount. That would
have made everyone happy (except Mario) but that isn't what he said at all.
CaligulasHorse
<eddyster...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Maybe something like this : a guy who bought 3 pro licences of Jutland
> - that's $165 - and is now told to wait a week for his licences to
> reset ... if he's lucky.
>
> http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?t=86262
>
> I can always count on SES to provide a funny start of the week. Their
> avatar ought to be an eagle aiming a bazooka at itself.
That highlight of that thread was of course JR's little tutorial on
how to be allowed to play the game, except he missed the step where
you're supposed to put yr trousers on backwards & beat yourself over
the head with an inflated pig's bladder
Briarroot
> On 12 jul, 15:30, Briarroot <briarr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Bloodstar wrote:
>>>> Now we see where world is going...
>>> ie. Just take the money in whatever way you find convinient. Even if you
>>> have to steal it. And this is exactly the right word for this - a legal
>>> robbery by Matrix Games, Inc.
>>> They should have to start hitting Banks in New York some day.
>> Oh come off it, Mario! I realize that English isn't your native
>> language, but you *really* ought to understand the meaning of "robbery"
>> by now.
>
> Maybe something like this : a guy who bought 3 pro licences of Jutland
> - that's $165 - and is now told to wait a week for his licences to
> reset ... if he's lucky.
>
> http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?t=86262
>
Now *that* is more like actual robbery! (Those poor dumb schnooks)
> I can always count on SES to provide a funny start of the week. Their
> avatar ought to be an eagle aiming a bazooka at itself.
>
Heh! ;-)
eddys...@hotmail.com
>
> I would think their biggest concern would be the loss of the current WitP
> crowd if they made it a stand alone game and charged $130.00 for it. This
> way current owners don't have to pony up so much cash as they've already
> invested the $70.00 or so for WitP.
>
> Which market is bigger, new players to the system or the current fan base? I
> guess they decided to play it safe and cater to the fan base. Either way
> though, they were apparently going to piss of somebody no matter what they
> did.
Something doesn't add up.
If their main target was existing WitP players, they might have well
gone for a $70-$80 price tag for a stand-alone version of AE. I've
*never* heard a WitP fan complain about the higher price-tag compared
to other games.
This would have attracted new players as well - the enhanced and
updated WitP monster game for the same price as the 5-year old
original.
But by asking $130 for the new AE game they might as well forget about
getting new players into the game, so they've limited their customer
base to current WitP players only. Which is not a smart move in my
eyes.
For existing WitP players the currently proposed scheme is a bargain
and I expect many of the hard-core players will make the jump on the
first day, resulting in the WitP forum becoming a dead zone, quickly
becoming unattractive to new players.
But the entry ticket for the new game is at $130 a bit prohibitive so
where do they expect to get newbees from ?
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
James D Burns
>
> If that's true, then I certainly missed it. Erik said that AE would be
> *more* expensive than the price of $60-70 that he posted, but he did not
> say how *much* more expensive. I don't think he meant $130 or else he
> could have simply said they're giving WitP away free to purchasers of AE,
> and giving those who already own WitP a major discount. That would have
> made everyone happy (except Mario) but that isn't what he said at all.
>
>
I guess I read a little into Erik's statement when he said this:
>Pricing AE at $100 or more stand-alone in
>this economy also seemed likely to provoke a knee jerk reaction (at
>this point, I think frankly we were going to take heat whatever we
>did).
I assumed he meant they would have charged a similar amount had they done a
stand alone release, but he simply couldn't bring himself to actually say
$130.00 in a public forum. LOL
Jim
CaligulasHorse
>
> Exactly. I would even use the idea that AE is a much more *intense* and
> *difficult* version of WitP as a selling point. I'd trumpet that fact
> all over my sales pages with things like: "Don't Buy This Game Unless
> You're a Serious WitP Fanatic!" ;-)
Absolutely - AE should only be for the brass-balled super-alpha grog
who thinks sex is for sad wimps who will never understand the pure
manly joy of optimising 12,657 shipping manifests. They shouldn't sell
the game - they should sell tickets in a lottery where the winner is
allowed to buy it unless black balled by people who have it already.
They should license Norm's DRM IP and charge the royalties to AE
owners, with a mark-up. They need to Bernie Madoff this thing!
James D Burns
<eddys...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:69e33016-b5f6-43b8...@v2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> But the entry ticket for the new game is at $130 a bit prohibitive so
> where do they expect to get newbees from ?
>
Erik did say they were going to discount WitP to help out new players
interested in getting into the game (don't remember if he posted a price
yet), but I do think they pretty much doubt they'll be many of those after 5
years. And given his statement I just quoted above, that they were going to
charge $100.00 or more for a stand alone version of AE, this price scheme
does cater to the fan base given that disclosure.
Jim
eddys...@hotmail.com
update jutland_activation
set games_activated_counter = 0
where customer_id = 1234
That's how much effort it takes to fix the problem of that guy.
He's lucky that the guy is pretty polite about it - I'm the kind of
guy who'd scream his head off if someone took 5 minutes to explain to
me why I'd have to wait a week for a 10-second problem to be solved
for something I paid $165 for.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Squid
> Most of our customers who own WITP actually say that it's the biggest
> gaming bargain they ever bought, in terms of how much entertainment
> they got per buck. If AE did not require ownership of WITP, it's
> stand alone price would be significantly higher.
>
> Regards,
>
> - Erik
>
>
What a load of spin doctoring bullshit! You are forcing people who may only
want AE to have to buy WiTP too in order to buy AE. Most of your games are
already overpriced so claiming it would cost a lot more to buy if it didn't
require WiTP purchase first is a fucking lie because AE is already at $59.99
which is more than most games cost and not many will pay more than that for
any game. Neither titles supports widescreen so I won't be buying either
anyway. In fact, I will no longer be buying any more games from Matrixgames.
Happy now?
Squid
> Second, the pricing. We could have priced AE as a stand-alone game
> and not had it require WITP. This would have increased its price
> significantly and also required us to offer a discount to owners of
> WITP.
$59.99 for a download version is not a stand-alone game price? Who the fuck
do you think your playing with here? I wasn't born yesterday. AAA titles
sell for $49.99 at every online download store and then get discounted 6
months later, sometimes sooner. $59.99 is already on the very high side so
how do you figure that is a discounted price compared to a stand-alone game?
It isn't, you douche.
Squid
news:h3dmad$t6e$1...@sunce.iskon.hr...
> Jim you are pompous ass. Simple as that.
>
Most wargamers are pompous ass's.
Squid
news:Ujz6m.102986$K24...@newsfe19.iad...> news:4a5aa209$0$1616$742e...@news.sonic.net...
>
>> Matrix may be thinking that AE will only be bought by people who have
>> already played WiTP but that doesn't mean they should be deliberately
>> denying sales to those who haven't.
>
> way of wargamers practicing their second favorite pastime... being
> cheapskates. What's a full tank of gas these days, $50.00, $60.00? how
> many times a week do you have to fill up your tank? They aren't charging
> that much more for the games and you get literally 1000s of hours out of
> them if you like playing them. I've played WitP for years now and will
> only be stopping to move on to AE.
>
> Maybe I missed something, but I thought Erik said the reason they went
> this route is so people wouldn't have to pay the $130.00 or so they would
> first to see if they like it before investing the rest into AE. How is
> that denying anyone sales? I read it as an attempt to allow people to test
> the waters first without investing 100% of the cost.
>
> And if you think AE should be as cheap as regular games just because you
> think that's the market. You're not being fair to Matrix nor to the dozens
> and dozens of people who have been working on this project for years
> without any pay at all. I doubt anyone will be making up half of what it
> cost them to do this thing at these prices. That's why I say it's worth
> twice what they decided to charge for it.
>
> Jim
>
STFU you stupid fanboi. You think they would sell more than 2 copies if they
priced it at $130.00? Highly unlikely. They are putting in a false
requirement to own WiTP in order to buy AE is what the issue is. Wake up and
smell the coffee, you fucking twat.
Squid
> I assumed he meant they would have charged a similar amount had they done
> a stand alone release, but he simply couldn't bring himself to actually
> say $130.00 in a public forum. LOL
>
> Jim
Did AE require more man hours and financial investment than Empire:TW? No,
far less is my guess. Empire cost me $49.99 CAD and not $59.99 USD and you
are suggesting AE should be priced at $130.00 USD just because it is a niche
product? Niche to most people means boring and not expensive. That's why
they are niche products in the first place. They only appeal to boring
pompous twats like you.
Squid
> AE was developed by very dedicated hardcore fans of WitP. It was designed
> with the intent of adding far more complexity and realism to the system
> from jump.
Translation: AE is an overpriced mod of WiTP done by fanbois.
Squid
Is it a "patch" if it doesn't install on top of the original game,
doesn't share any files with the original game, doesn't prevent you
still playing the original game and took more time to develop than the
original game? Sorry, but I don't agree with this. I realize this is
not a typical arrangement, but it is what it is and comparing it to
mainstream game conventions will not make it into something different.
Regards,
- Erik
OK, it's a new game then. Then why make people have to buy WiTP first before
they can buy AE? You and I both know it is all about money so don't try and
give us any more of your spin doctoring BS. Fucking tosser.
James D Burns
"Squid" <sq...@notforemail.invalid> wrote in message
news:deI6m.103095$K24....@newsfe19.iad...
> Did AE require more man hours and financial investment than Empire:TW? No,
> far less is my guess. Empire cost me $49.99 CAD and not $59.99 USD and you
> are suggesting AE should be priced at $130.00 USD just because it is a
> niche product? Niche to most people means boring and not expensive. That's
> why they are niche products in the first place. They only appeal to boring
> pompous twats like you.
OK, basic math lesson 101 for hostile asshole.
Empire TW sold what, about 1 million copies? That's a revenue stream of 1
million times the $40.00 or so US (not sure didn't waste my money on such a
turd of a game), which is $40,000,000.00 for their efforts. Looks like
they've made a nice profit and then some.
AE will sell what 3,000 copies if they are lucky? That's a revenue stream of
about $180,000.00. Divide that by the dozen or so people/companies getting a
cut and no one is making much of a profit if any for the years of work for
no pay they put into this project.
Now a selfish asshole like you could care less if those people make any
money for the work they put in to bring a game like this to fruition. But I
for one appreciate their work and think they deserve to see some return for
their efforts.
Now go fuck yourself.
Jim
Squid
>
> I would think their biggest concern would be the loss of the current WitP
> crowd if they made it a stand alone game and charged $130.00 for it.
It would never sell for $130.00 so stop with the fanboism. $59.99 USD is
already higher than AAA titles sell for. You are trying to make it look like
$59.99 is a bargain when anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together know it
is not.
Squid
> So excuse me all language fascists but if you do know just one language
> then you are one league below me.
Why should we learn another language when there is no use for it. Like it or
not but English is the international language now so there is no use to
learn another language when that time could be put to better use learning
something more useful than a dying language. Also, studies have shown that
people who speak/read/write only one language have better thinking ability
because they think in only one language.
Squid
> No one is forcing anyone to buy, if you're happy with WITP, stay with
> that. We also feel WITP still has legs and it is also its own game at
> a different scale and detail level than AE. But keep in mind that
> WITP has been out for five years and cost $70 download. Most folks
> have gotten way more than their money's worth out of that. AE comes
> along five years later and will cost $60 to download. Asking for $60-
> $70 every five years for a monster wargame of this scale is frankly
> not a significant investment and will allow development on games of
> this kind to continue, the next step being a new engine to replace the
> UV/WITP/AE generation. What I do find surprising about this feedback
> is that we've made the two points below very clear from the beginning,
> but people are reacting as if this is a sneak attack.
>
> 1. AE will require WITP
> 2. AE will not be much less than WITP in terms of price
>
> Regards,
>
> - Erik
That is just fucked up and if you really cared about your customers it would
be buy WiTP at reduced price and/or AE at full price with no false flag
requiring owning WiTP first, you could even offer WiTP+AE bundle at bundle
price. If WiTP is already 5 years old then most publishers would have
already reduced the price to $19.99 or less long ago. You guys keep your
games at maximum price for far longer than any other publisher does and most
of them are not worth any where near the asking price. You suck!
Squid
For those who have not yet played WITP, we believe WITP is a
better game to start with than AE.
Don't you think that should be the customers decision and not yours? Explain
the differences between the two and suggest they play WiTP first but don't
force them to buy WiTP first if they really want AE instead. That's just
wrong and if you don't get the reasoning then you are in the wrong business.
Squid
news:83e23f02-b1c8-4cdb...@o13g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
Ultimately the decision we're putting in front of WITP players is "do
you think AE is worth $60?".
Explain to me why AE (five year old modded game with fixed 4:3 res) is worth
$59.99 and Empire:TW is only worth $49.99 (brand new game with brand new
engine that supports widescreen). This should be good for a laugh.
Squid
>If I understand you correctly, you'd be happier
>if AE were a stand-alone $100 game
Why do you think AE (five year old modded game) is now worth $100.00 and
Empire:TW is only worth $49.99? In fact, I paid $49.99 CAD for Empire so
that is well below $49.99 USD. On your site any game that is $59.99 USD I
have to pay at least $74.99 CAD. No fucking game sells for that much in
Canada, moron. I don't need your steenkin' games and am no longer a Matrix
customer. And that fucking shit game Starshatter:TGS is still broken 2 years
after I bought it. You robbed me.
Squid
news:233b0f72-3896-409b...@l32g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>In my perception, you are saying you bought a flawed product in WITP.
>Here is the upgraded unflawed version for another $70.
It is still flawed. They want me to pay $59.99 USD for a 5 year old modded
game that doesn't even support widescreen? Not bloody likely.
Bloodstar
>
> Empire TW sold what, about 1 million copies? That's a revenue stream of 1
> million times the $40.00 or so US (not sure didn't waste my money on such
> a turd of a game), which is $40,000,000.00 for their efforts. Looks like
> they've made a nice profit and then some.
LAUGHTER
First, CA is owned by SEGA so even final profit is split. Also, they don't
get 40$ out of deal, because we don't know what is their deal with Steam and
how much is their cut. And, did you ever sell any computer games? Sega is
selling games at a discount to various bigger or smaller distributors so
distributors take tjeir cut as well. Also as you know in retail price cuts
are very quick. If they get 10-20$ they are lucky.
And development of Empire: Total War type of game is so much more expensive.
Yes, I don't dispute that they make profit I agree with that but don't know
really how much.
Fallout 3 sold well, GTA IV sold superb, now that's real money and allowed
Bethesda to snap idSoftware (re: F3 success). I've met Vlatko Andonov now
CEO of Bethesda Softworks at one E3. Unfortunately I coudln't find time to
have a coffe with him and he invited me "Dodji na kafu" on our language. He
is Macedonian, so our man from The Balkans :o)))). I like Macedonia very
much, they have really good traditional songs, look for it on you tube hehe.
Greece is also buggering them because of name Macedonia and this is another
example of modern fascism. Take note. You see how history can be cruel
sometimes. Alexander Macedonia spread out Helenic culture all around Ancient
word and was remembered in history as Great Man. From that generosity and
greatness nothing is left in todays modern Greek full of goat herders. Like
that is so big thing to allow Macedonia to have that name and not insisting
on FYR Macedonia (former yugoslav republic). Gee, Greece go fuck yourself,
would you? Another thing they have soon enough betrayed legacy of Alexander
Macedonian and soon destroyed his emire by dividing it into many smaller
states. So those imbecils are the last to speak about Macedonia.
Nice history lesson boys? LOL :o)))))
> AE will sell what 3,000 copies if they are lucky? That's a revenue stream
> of about $180,000.00. Divide that by the dozen or so people/companies
> getting a cut and no one is making much of a profit if any for the years
> of work for no pay they put into this project.
What a naive sheep you are? Why you think that Matrix Games or any other
company is hiding sales data from you? Because they sell a lot more than we
know it. Otherwise they would not guard that SO FUCKING IMPORTANT
informations from us. And one more thing stop shooting foolish numbers if
you don't know it.
By my reckoning they have sold 10000 copies of WITP. Maybe even 12000.
That's my prediction and you prove me wrong :o))))
So, let's see... 12000x60$= 720000$ now that sounds much better regarding
costs of production vis a vis CA devs LOL
> Now a selfish asshole like you could care less if those people make any
> money for the work they put in to bring a game like this to fruition. But
> I for one appreciate their work and think they deserve to see some return
> for their efforts.
>
> Now go fuck yourself.
And who told that they don't deserve?
Dimensional Traveler
>
>
>> (And BTW, where exactly did I say anything about what price they
>> should charge for it?)
>>
>
> Sorry, it was late and I was trying to respond to multiple other posters
> concerns in the post. Didn't mean to imply you had said that.
>
Alright. But since you've gotten me started on price... :-P
Matrix has already admitted that the potential customer base for AE is
existing owners of WiTP. So any profit they make on AE will have to
come from sales to existing owners of WiTP. Which means the price they
charge WiTP owners has to make them a profit.
--
Things I learned from MythBusters #57: Never leave a loaded gun in an
exploding room.
James D Burns
>
> Matrix has already admitted that the potential customer base for AE is
> existing owners of WiTP. So any profit they make on AE will have to come
> from sales to existing owners of WiTP. Which means the price they charge
> WiTP owners has to make them a profit.
>
Not possible, I think they are just trying to make sure they cover their
costs. One of the team members apparently already calculated what it would
take to break even on the project and here's what was posted by Terminus:
>A knowledgeable IT professional on our team calculated that if everybody on
>the team had been paid salary at the going rate (corrected for the
>part-time status of all of us), and we went on to sell >2,000 copies of the
>game, the price would have to be $2,200 a pop to break even.
>Just trying to insert a bit of perspective.
Here's the thread:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2161115&mpage=7&key=
Jim
Ray O'Hara
<eddys...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f2cef360-020c-426b...@p15g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
On 13 jul, 10:51, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <66a0f385-6dc9-4cf0-b422-191abb4f8894
> @l31g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>, eddyster...@hotmail.com says...
>
> > What killed AH was a combination of D&D hitting the scene, a flooded
> > market, too many fixed costs (staff) and too many mediocre games in
> > the pipeline, not ASL which was a success.
>
> I dunno. I knew *tons* of people who played SL
raises hand.
===============================================================
here too "waves"
I remember when the D&Ders started polluting the MIT SGS.
It brought in folks who couldn't tell a sherman from a Renault 17.
Ray O'Hara
<eddys...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:52826528-5ea1-44ce...@p15g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
On 13 jul, 12:51, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> But look at the dreck they were churning out. AMOEBA WARS? GAME OF
> TRIVIA? ICEBERGS? HEXAGONY? GAME OF SLANG?
Yup - given 20/20 hindsight it's pretty easy to spot several factors
which made the demise of AH almost inevitable. The thing was that at
the time this was simply inconceivable. It was not only the 800 lb
gorilla, it was the foundation of the hobby.
Before anyone begins to draw parallels to Matrix today : they're very
far removed from the top-heavy, removed-from-reality company that AH
was.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
P.S. Game of Men with Guns :
http://www.worthingtongames.com/servlet/Detail?no=11
I hear it's a hoot :)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Men with Guns" directed by John Sayles is a very good movie.
Squid
> OK, basic math lesson 101 for hostile asshole.
>
> Empire TW sold what, about 1 million copies? That's a revenue stream of 1
> million times the $40.00 or so US (not sure didn't waste my money on such
> a turd of a game), which is $40,000,000.00 for their efforts. Looks like
> they've made a nice profit and then some.
>
> AE will sell what 3,000 copies if they are lucky? That's a revenue stream
> of about $180,000.00. Divide that by the dozen or so people/companies
> getting a cut and no one is making much of a profit if any for the years
> of work for no pay they put into this project.
>
> Now a selfish asshole like you could care less if those people make any
> money for the work they put in to bring a game like this to fruition. But
> I for one appreciate their work and think they deserve to see some return
> for their efforts.
>
> Now go fuck yourself.
>
> Jim
>
Perhaps if they priced the game at it's true worth they would make a lot
more profit. I'm betting the man hours spent making Empire far exceeds WiTP
and AE combined. That is how I evaluate a games fair selling price. AE
should be no more than $19.99. Your opinion of Empire is irrelevant too. In
fact, you wargamers are quite irrelevant to the gaming industry in general.
Ray O'Hara
<eddys...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:69e33016-b5f6-43b8...@v2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> On 13 jul, 15:16, "James D Burns" <jburns7...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> I would think their biggest concern would be the loss of the current WitP
>> way current owners don't have to pony up so much cash as they've already
>> invested the $70.00 or so for WitP.
>>
>> Which market is bigger, new players to the system or the current fan
>> base? I
>> guess they decided to play it safe and cater to the fan base. Either way
>> though, they were apparently going to piss of somebody no matter what
>> they
>> did.
>
> Something doesn't add up.
>
> If their main target was existing WitP players, they might have well
> gone for a $70-$80 price tag for a stand-alone version of AE. I've
> *never* heard a WitP fan complain about the higher price-tag compared
> to other games.
>
> This would have attracted new players as well - the enhanced and
> updated WitP monster game for the same price as the 5-year old
> original.
>
> But by asking $130 for the new AE game they might as well forget about
> getting new players into the game, so they've limited their customer
> base to current WitP players only. Which is not a smart move in my
> eyes.
>
> For existing WitP players the currently proposed scheme is a bargain
> and I expect many of the hard-core players will make the jump on the
> first day, resulting in the WitP forum becoming a dead zone, quickly
> becoming unattractive to new players.
>
> But the entry ticket for the new game is at $130 a bit prohibitive so
> where do they expect to get newbees from ?
>
>
> Eddy Sterckx
foring people to buy a game thwy won't play so they can buy the next version
is crazed.
autore...@usenet.com
sq...@notforemail.invalid says...
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paul...@yahoo.com
> make AE a stand alone game.
That is an EXPANSION, not a Patch. There are huge number of examples
- from Warcraft III Frozen Throne requiring Warcraft III, to all the
new Fallout 3 expansions requiring Fallout 3 installed, etc.
paul...@yahoo.com
I'm also a WITP owner and agree.
> In fact I'd have gladly paid twice that,
Not sure I agree with this...
> but you'd have to be an active member
> of the WitP community to understand why AE is worth that amount of money.
Agree. However, I don't see any current WITP continuing with WITP. I
also don't see new people starting with WITP either. AE is a
different scale but it also fixes a lot of problems that WITP has (or
supposedly fixes).
> Those bitching about the price don't really understand the difference in the
> two games.
Those bitching aren't customers and aren't gonna buy the game anyway.
But this does remind me a little about the TOAW fiasco - where you
had 3 or 4 versions of TOAW - original, game of the year edition, etc,
all out at the same time.
Reality is that AE will replace WITP.