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Piercing Fortress Europe - in beta testing
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eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 11, 2013, 9:14:50 AM4/11/13
to
Hi,
This is a Frank Hunter design of which next to nothing is known apart
from the fact it's going to deal with the Italian campaign in WWII -
so Sicily and Italy.
Beta testing has begun, no screenshots yet.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
This is a Frank Hunter design of which next to nothing is known apart
from the fact it's going to deal with the Italian campaign in WWII -
so Sicily and Italy.
Beta testing has begun, no screenshots yet.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
GJK
Apr 11, 2013, 6:43:11 PM4/11/13
to
On Apr 11, 8:14 am, "eddyster...@hotmail.com"
I'm the graphic artist for the game. The maps are done (Italy and
Sicily) as well as the counters. I'm working on weather effects on
the Italian peninsula map and will have those ready over the weekend.
Frank said that beta testing is underway (as you mentioned) so it's
getting there. I'm not a tester and all that I know about it is what
I've done graphics wise. It has a real "clean" look to it that is
definitely boardgame inspired (I know that Gifty won't like that
but.... :)
I enjoyed Frank's "Guns of August" game and did a map mod for it that
he really liked and so he asked if I would be interested in working on
this new project for him. I jumped at the chance and have really
enjoyed doing the work.
I also have a boardgame in the works for Paul Koenig/Victory Point
Games. I'm doing the map artwork for this particular game and it will
be covering the Gettysburg battle (150th anniversary of battle coming
up).
So, I won't be quitting my day job any time soon, but it's a nice
little bit of extra pocket money doing something that I absolutely
love to do.
Sicily) as well as the counters. I'm working on weather effects on
the Italian peninsula map and will have those ready over the weekend.
Frank said that beta testing is underway (as you mentioned) so it's
getting there. I'm not a tester and all that I know about it is what
I've done graphics wise. It has a real "clean" look to it that is
definitely boardgame inspired (I know that Gifty won't like that
but.... :)
I enjoyed Frank's "Guns of August" game and did a map mod for it that
he really liked and so he asked if I would be interested in working on
this new project for him. I jumped at the chance and have really
enjoyed doing the work.
I also have a boardgame in the works for Paul Koenig/Victory Point
Games. I'm doing the map artwork for this particular game and it will
be covering the Gettysburg battle (150th anniversary of battle coming
up).
So, I won't be quitting my day job any time soon, but it's a nice
little bit of extra pocket money doing something that I absolutely
love to do.
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 12, 2013, 3:01:43 AM4/12/13
to
On 12 apr, 00:43, GJK <j...@garykrockover.com> wrote:
> It has a real "clean" look to it that is
> definitely boardgame inspired (I know that Gifty won't like that
> but.... :)
I sense this is going to become a recurring theme :)
> It has a real "clean" look to it that is
> definitely boardgame inspired (I know that Gifty won't like that
> but.... :)
> I also have a boardgame in the works for Paul Koenig/Victory Point
> Games. I'm doing the map artwork for this particular game and it will
> be covering the Gettysburg battle (150th anniversary of battle coming
> up).
clean designs, going back to the essence of things. I'm really looking
forward to what he has done with Gettysburg
> So, I won't be quitting my day job any time soon, but it's a nice
> little bit of extra pocket money doing something that I absolutely
> love to do.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Giftzwerg
Apr 12, 2013, 5:39:02 AM4/12/13
to
In article <5c444dcc-0b8c-4af7-b267-109271f9bc99
@j14g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
> This is a Frank Hunter design of which next to nothing is known apart
> from the fact it's going to deal with the Italian campaign in WWII -
> so Sicily and Italy.
>
> Beta testing has begun, no screenshots yet.
Oh, *this* is going to be A Truly Great Gaming Experience, I'll bet. I
can see the advertising copy now:
"Combining the stupifyingly dull pace of the real Italian campaign with
the gut-churning boardgamey bullshit of GUNS OF AUGUST, PIERCING
FORTRESS EUROPE will give the erstwhile gamer *minutes* of frustrating
incomprehension before they fling it aside in disgust."
--
Giftzwerg
***
"What makes an assault weapon an assault weapon? Randomly selected
cosmetic features that look scary to ignorant liberals, but have nothing
material to do with the function of the firearm. If liberals had more
sense, they would be embarrassed."
- Senator Ted Cruz
@j14g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
> This is a Frank Hunter design of which next to nothing is known apart
> from the fact it's going to deal with the Italian campaign in WWII -
> so Sicily and Italy.
>
> Beta testing has begun, no screenshots yet.
can see the advertising copy now:
"Combining the stupifyingly dull pace of the real Italian campaign with
the gut-churning boardgamey bullshit of GUNS OF AUGUST, PIERCING
FORTRESS EUROPE will give the erstwhile gamer *minutes* of frustrating
incomprehension before they fling it aside in disgust."
--
Giftzwerg
***
"What makes an assault weapon an assault weapon? Randomly selected
cosmetic features that look scary to ignorant liberals, but have nothing
material to do with the function of the firearm. If liberals had more
sense, they would be embarrassed."
- Senator Ted Cruz
Giftzwerg
Apr 12, 2013, 5:45:32 AM4/12/13
to
In article <63cff4cf-29cb-49e6-a776-
5f0d04...@a14g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com
says...
> > It has a real "clean" look to it that is
> > definitely boardgame inspired (I know that Gifty won't like that
> > but.... :)
>
> I sense this is going to become a recurring theme :)
Well, GUNS OF AUGUST *is* my all-time poster-boy for the idea that
boardgame designers should be shot if they go anywhere near a PC.
5f0d04...@a14g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com
says...
> > It has a real "clean" look to it that is
> > definitely boardgame inspired (I know that Gifty won't like that
> > but.... :)
>
> I sense this is going to become a recurring theme :)
boardgame designers should be shot if they go anywhere near a PC.
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 12, 2013, 5:57:18 AM4/12/13
to
On 12 apr, 11:45, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <63cff4cf-29cb-49e6-a776-
> 5f0d046b8...@a14g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, eddyster...@hotmail.com
cardboard are ok ? :)
Guns of August is like that ugly girl in High School that turned out
to be funny, smart and sweet once you got to know her and got past the
outer surface.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
> In article <63cff4cf-29cb-49e6-a776-
> 5f0d046b8...@a14g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, eddyster...@hotmail.com
> says...
>
> > > It has a real "clean" look to it that is
> > > definitely boardgame inspired (I know that Gifty won't like that
> > > but.... :)
>
> > I sense this is going to become a recurring theme :)
>
> Well, GUNS OF AUGUST *is* my all-time poster-boy for the idea that
> boardgame designers should be shot if they go anywhere near a PC.
So conversely, pc wargame designers who try out stuff first in
>
> > > It has a real "clean" look to it that is
> > > definitely boardgame inspired (I know that Gifty won't like that
> > > but.... :)
>
> > I sense this is going to become a recurring theme :)
>
> Well, GUNS OF AUGUST *is* my all-time poster-boy for the idea that
> boardgame designers should be shot if they go anywhere near a PC.
cardboard are ok ? :)
Guns of August is like that ugly girl in High School that turned out
to be funny, smart and sweet once you got to know her and got past the
outer surface.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Pelle Nilsson
Apr 12, 2013, 6:30:28 AM4/12/13
to
"eddys...@hotmail.com" <eddys...@hotmail.com> writes:
> Guns of August is like that ugly girl in High School that turned out
> to be funny, smart and sweet once you got to know her and got past the
> outer surface.
It was the game that finally made me realise I don't really like that
> Guns of August is like that ugly girl in High School that turned out
> to be funny, smart and sweet once you got to know her and got past the
> outer surface.
high-level strategic games. Too much time on modifying production and
research settings, or moving fleets around, with too many boring
variables I don't want to care about or care to learn what effect they
can have. Moving armies (corps?) around on the map and attacking was
fun, even if the ui was a bit weird, especially with the boardgamey
graphics mod, but I never liked having to also be bothered with the
other stuff.
--
/Pelle
GJK
Apr 12, 2013, 7:04:01 AM4/12/13
to
On Apr 12, 4:39 am, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <5c444dcc-0b8c-4af7-b267-109271f9bc99
> @j14g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, eddyster...@hotmail.com says...
> In article <5c444dcc-0b8c-4af7-b267-109271f9bc99
the graphics mod for GoA nor when doing the graphics for PFE. ;)
True- if you've moved on from board wargaming or PC emulation of board
wargaming, this won't be to your liking. That's ok. I don't care for
the PC games that have units slowly scrolling across a map that I tell
to "hunt and destroy" and then just sit back and watch the PC do all
the work for me.
But can't you just be happy for me? Someone that has followed this
group for a decade gets to actually do professional work for a couple
of wargame design companies. Said tongue in cheek - you remind me of
the grumpy old grandpa Gifty. A great guy down inside but man, you
are a grouch. Heh!
Giftzwerg
Apr 12, 2013, 7:37:29 AM4/12/13
to
In article <af1fdc8e-e391-400d-ad07-ecead16f33b7
@cm2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
> > Well, GUNS OF AUGUST *is* my all-time poster-boy for the idea that
> > boardgame designers should be shot if they go anywhere near a PC.
>
> So conversely, pc wargame designers who try out stuff first in
> cardboard are ok ? :)
Depends on what they learn from their trials.
> Guns of August is like that ugly girl in High School that turned out
> to be funny, smart and sweet once you got to know her and got past the
> outer surface.
Disagree. TACOPS is analogous to the ugly girl in high school who turns
out to be simply awesome once you get past the outer surface. The
graphics appear to have been done by the Microsoft BoB design team, the
menus were ripped from the pages of Excel for Windows, and the maps
looked as though they were drawn by a five-year-old with poor motor
skills who was missing most of his Crayolas.
The game, however, was fucking *brilliant*.
GUNS OF AUGUST is the girl who looks perfectly OK - even seems to be
exactly the sort of gal you'd be attracted to - but who is so painfully
annoying to be around that the moment you go on a date with her your
only thought is how long it will take before you can politely excuse
yourself and make your escape through the little window in the men's
room.
No, I stand by my original criticisms of GOA; it's the apotheosis of how
slavish adherence to boardgaming conventions poisons the well of PC game
design. It might have worked between two college roommates on a spool
table littered with beer cans, bags of pretzels, and a bong ... but as a
computer game? Bleagh.
(Phases! Let's have some more phases! Never use one phase when five
will do! Frank Hunter never met a phase he couldn't bi- or trifurcate!
Perhaps I'm remembering it wrongly, but wasn't there a phase that only
existed as a phase to intervene between the previous phase and the
subsequent phase?
Didn't I call that the, "What the Fuck" phase?)
@cm2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
> > Well, GUNS OF AUGUST *is* my all-time poster-boy for the idea that
> > boardgame designers should be shot if they go anywhere near a PC.
>
> So conversely, pc wargame designers who try out stuff first in
> cardboard are ok ? :)
> Guns of August is like that ugly girl in High School that turned out
> to be funny, smart and sweet once you got to know her and got past the
> outer surface.
out to be simply awesome once you get past the outer surface. The
graphics appear to have been done by the Microsoft BoB design team, the
menus were ripped from the pages of Excel for Windows, and the maps
looked as though they were drawn by a five-year-old with poor motor
skills who was missing most of his Crayolas.
The game, however, was fucking *brilliant*.
GUNS OF AUGUST is the girl who looks perfectly OK - even seems to be
exactly the sort of gal you'd be attracted to - but who is so painfully
annoying to be around that the moment you go on a date with her your
only thought is how long it will take before you can politely excuse
yourself and make your escape through the little window in the men's
room.
No, I stand by my original criticisms of GOA; it's the apotheosis of how
slavish adherence to boardgaming conventions poisons the well of PC game
design. It might have worked between two college roommates on a spool
table littered with beer cans, bags of pretzels, and a bong ... but as a
computer game? Bleagh.
(Phases! Let's have some more phases! Never use one phase when five
will do! Frank Hunter never met a phase he couldn't bi- or trifurcate!
Perhaps I'm remembering it wrongly, but wasn't there a phase that only
existed as a phase to intervene between the previous phase and the
subsequent phase?
Didn't I call that the, "What the Fuck" phase?)
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 12, 2013, 7:50:52 AM4/12/13
to
On 12 apr, 13:37, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <af1fdc8e-e391-400d-ad07-ecead16f33b7
> @cm2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, eddyster...@hotmail.com says...
> In article <af1fdc8e-e391-400d-ad07-ecead16f33b7
>
> > > Well, GUNS OF AUGUST *is* my all-time poster-boy for the idea that
> > > boardgame designers should be shot if they go anywhere near a PC.
>
> > So conversely, pc wargame designers who try out stuff first in
> > cardboard are ok ? :)
>
> Depends on what they learn from their trials.
From where I'm looking : not a lot
> > > Well, GUNS OF AUGUST *is* my all-time poster-boy for the idea that
> > > boardgame designers should be shot if they go anywhere near a PC.
>
> > So conversely, pc wargame designers who try out stuff first in
> > cardboard are ok ? :)
>
> Depends on what they learn from their trials.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Giftzwerg
Apr 12, 2013, 8:09:25 AM4/12/13
to
In article <10d1f697-d354-4b93-8de3-b22dacdfe790
@n4g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, ju...@garykrockover.com says...
> > Oh, *this* is going to be A Truly Great Gaming Experience, I'll bet. ï¿œI
GOA - even the original, un-modded graphics. And I had long ago
finished with GOA before your mod appeared; from the screenshots, it
looked quite nice.
And I almost never criticize a game on graphics. Two of my current
favorite games - NWS's WC:NAW and SAI - are so graphically plain that
they appear to have been mastered for the Commodore 64. But in every
other respect, they're just awesome.
> True- if you've moved on from board wargaming or PC emulation of board
> wargaming, this won't be to your liking. That's ok. I don't care for
> the PC games that have units slowly scrolling across a map that I tell
> to "hunt and destroy" and then just sit back and watch the PC do all
> the work for me.
But consider TOAW or any of SSG's wargames; they're every bit the
descendant of a boardgame as GOA ... but the designers thought it
through carefully. The interface is slick, clean, and fluid. The
gameplay is well-conceived and excellent. Boardgame simulators, to be
sure, but *awesome* boardgame simulators that keep getting my money.
> But can't you just be happy for me? Someone that has followed this
> group for a decade gets to actually do professional work for a couple
> of wargame design companies. Said tongue in cheek - you remind me of
> the grumpy old grandpa Gifty. A great guy down inside but man, you
> are a grouch. Heh!
I am happy for you. Well done, sir. Why would I not be?
And, as stated, I thought your graphic mod for GOA was excellent, a
class job in every way. Would that it had been in service of a game I
enjoyed.
@n4g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, ju...@garykrockover.com says...
> > Oh, *this* is going to be A Truly Great Gaming Experience, I'll bet. ï¿œI
> > can see the advertising copy now:
> >
> > "Combining the stupifyingly dull pace of the real Italian campaign with
> > the gut-churning boardgamey bullshit of GUNS OF AUGUST, PIERCING
> > FORTRESS EUROPE will give the erstwhile gamer *minutes* of frustrating
> > incomprehension before they fling it aside in disgust."
> >
> > "Combining the stupifyingly dull pace of the real Italian campaign with
> > the gut-churning boardgamey bullshit of GUNS OF AUGUST, PIERCING
> > FORTRESS EUROPE will give the erstwhile gamer *minutes* of frustrating
> > incomprehension before they fling it aside in disgust."
> Well, I must admit that I did *not* have Giftzwerg in mind when I did
> the graphics mod for GoA nor when doing the graphics for PFE. ;)
I hasten to say, though, that it wasn't the *graphics* that put me off
> the graphics mod for GoA nor when doing the graphics for PFE. ;)
GOA - even the original, un-modded graphics. And I had long ago
finished with GOA before your mod appeared; from the screenshots, it
looked quite nice.
And I almost never criticize a game on graphics. Two of my current
favorite games - NWS's WC:NAW and SAI - are so graphically plain that
they appear to have been mastered for the Commodore 64. But in every
other respect, they're just awesome.
> True- if you've moved on from board wargaming or PC emulation of board
> wargaming, this won't be to your liking. That's ok. I don't care for
> the PC games that have units slowly scrolling across a map that I tell
> to "hunt and destroy" and then just sit back and watch the PC do all
> the work for me.
descendant of a boardgame as GOA ... but the designers thought it
through carefully. The interface is slick, clean, and fluid. The
gameplay is well-conceived and excellent. Boardgame simulators, to be
sure, but *awesome* boardgame simulators that keep getting my money.
> But can't you just be happy for me? Someone that has followed this
> group for a decade gets to actually do professional work for a couple
> of wargame design companies. Said tongue in cheek - you remind me of
> the grumpy old grandpa Gifty. A great guy down inside but man, you
> are a grouch. Heh!
And, as stated, I thought your graphic mod for GOA was excellent, a
class job in every way. Would that it had been in service of a game I
enjoyed.
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 12, 2013, 8:17:34 AM4/12/13
to
On 12 apr, 14:09, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> And, as stated, I thought your graphic mod for GOA was excellent, a
> class job in every way. Would that it had been in service of a game I
> enjoyed.
I'm pretty sure GJK did a TOAW 3 mod as well.
>
> And, as stated, I thought your graphic mod for GOA was excellent, a
> class job in every way. Would that it had been in service of a game I
> enjoyed.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
smr
Apr 12, 2013, 10:08:42 AM4/12/13
to
In article <af1fdc8e-e391-400d-ad07-ecead16f33b7
@cm2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
It's more like the kinda cute girl you asked out on a whim and she ended
up having a club foot and a dick.
Fuck that game. Absolutely unreasonable to expect a computer player to
deal with that kind of nonsense.
--
smr
@cm2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
up having a club foot and a dick.
Fuck that game. Absolutely unreasonable to expect a computer player to
deal with that kind of nonsense.
--
smr
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 12, 2013, 10:21:51 AM4/12/13
to
On 12 apr, 16:08, smr <m...@shawnritchie.com> wrote:
>
> Fuck that game. Absolutely unreasonable to expect a computer player to
> deal with that kind of nonsense.
We're lucky it's Friday COB, because you agreeing with Mr Giftzwerg on
>
> Fuck that game. Absolutely unreasonable to expect a computer player to
> deal with that kind of nonsense.
something makes Beelzebub start looking for his skates.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Giftzwerg
Apr 12, 2013, 10:26:30 AM4/12/13
to
In article <ad5357cb-080f-41a5-a0bf-
63df9d...@b3g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com
says...
> > And, as stated, I thought your graphic mod for GOA was excellent, a
> > class job in every way. ï¿œWould that it had been in service of a game I
COMMAND.
63df9d...@b3g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com
says...
> > And, as stated, I thought your graphic mod for GOA was excellent, a
> > enjoyed.
>
> I'm pretty sure GJK did a TOAW 3 mod as well.
I'm still trying to find the graphics mod I once had for STRATEGIC
>
> I'm pretty sure GJK did a TOAW 3 mod as well.
COMMAND.
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 12, 2013, 10:35:38 AM4/12/13
to
On 12 apr, 16:26, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm still trying to find the graphics mod I once had for STRATEGIC
> COMMAND.
Which one ?
>
> I'm still trying to find the graphics mod I once had for STRATEGIC
> COMMAND.
Strategic Command 1 - Historical 1939 mod.zip 40338 2009.7.6 14:2.10
Strategic Command 1 - Third Reich mod.rar 696039 2009.6.1 15:58.6
CN_flag_sprites_mili_1-1.zip 2018 2002.9.30 13:11.26
FC_Italian_MOD.zip 664990 2002.9.30 13:12.10
Otto_flag_sprites_poli_1-1.zip 3964 2002.9.30 13:11.20
SC1_unit_sprites_1-0_CCH.zip 68606 2002.9.30 13:12.24
sc_hff_guimod_v11.zip 3492337 2002.9.30 13:12.22
Jeff Pinard's Overall Strategic Command Mod.zip 3404855 2004.1.22
10:30.32
1943 North American Bastion 3.zip 51618 2008.2.13 23:28.10
BillMacon_1939_Fall_Weiss_Campaign_Mod-v104.zip 40564 2008.2.13
23:29.38
BillMacon_1940_Fall_Gelb_Campaign_Mod-v102.zip 40740 2008.2.13
23:29.34
BillMacon_1941_Barbarossa.zip 48307 2008.2.13 23:29.30
Blashy_TheGreatWar.zip 44756 2008.2.13 23:26.22
ChrisHare_Unit_Sprites_1-0_CCH.zip 68606 2008.2.13 23:26.42
CoryVan_WWII_Axis_Allies.zip 45347 2008.2.13 23:29.26
CoryVandoremalen_LastCitadel.zip 47432 2008.2.13 23:29.20
CvMannerheim_1914_The_Guns_of_August-v112b.zip 41332 2008.2.13
23:26.12
CvMannerheim_1938_The_Gathering_Storm.zip 37724 2008.2.13 23:29.18
CvMannerheim_1939_The_Turkish_Option.zip 39059 2008.2.13 23:29.14
CvMannerheim_1942_Red_Star_Rising.zip 39226 2008.2.13 23:29.4
CvMannerheim_1942_Vive_Le_Reich.zip 39455 2008.2.13 23:29.10
CvMannerheim_1943_Operation_Crocodile_2-1.zip 41924 2008.2.13 23:29.0
CvMannerheim_1945_Cry_Havoc.zip 39992 2008.2.13 23:28.56
CvMannerheim_1962_Red_October.zip 40936 2008.2.13 23:27.18
DGaad_1939_Fall_Weiss_Historicity_v11.zip 49205 2008.2.13 23:28.52
Fahnenjunker_1945_Sonnenwende.zip 49108 2008.2.13 23:28.48
ImmerEtwas_1939_Italian_Pre-War_Mobilization.zip 41255 2008.2.13
23:28.44
JayJayH_1944_Ardennes_Offensive.zip 49658 2008.2.13 23:28.40
JeffPinard_1939_World_War_Corps.zip 42331 2008.2.13 23:28.36
JerseyJohn_1939_BrestLitovsk_Aftermath.zip 54285 2008.2.13 23:28.32
JerseyJohn_1939_Fall_Weiss_JJ_Adaptation.zip 44689 2008.2.13 23:28.26
JerseyJohn_Campaign_1942(39)_Z-Plan.zip 52347 2008.2.13 23:28.18
LoganHartke_1945_FallWeiss.zip 50258 2008.2.13 23:29.42
LoganHartke_1985_Graphics.zip 789707 2008.2.13 23:27.12
LoganHartke_WWII_Graphics.zip 51774 2008.2.13 23:26.50
NSengupta 1985 WWIII Red Inferno v1.2.zip 938750 2008.2.13 23:25.52
NSengupta_1939_Fall_Weiss_Revisited_2g.zip 51914 2008.2.13 23:27.52
NSengupta_1939_TotalWar(2).zip 47485 2008.2.13 23:27.58
NSengupta_1939_TotalWar.zip 47485 2008.2.13 23:27.40
NSengupta_1942_BiteOfTheBulldog.zip 98480 2008.2.13 23:27.34
NSengupta_1943AmericanArsenal.zip 48117 2008.2.13 23:27.28
1939_Blitzkrieg1939_v092.zip 46550 2002.12.4 13:31.40
1939_Blitzkrieg1939_v093.zip 46310 2002.12.4 13:31.48
1939_Fall_Weiss_Historicity_v11.zip 49205 2002.12.4 13:31.54
1939_Historical_Scenario.zip 54789 2004.3.16 14:39.42
1939_Six_Nations_At_War.zip 40001 2002.12.4 13:32.2
1939_The_Turkish_Option.zip 39059 2002.12.4 13:32.10
1939_Wolf_Pack.zip 42892 2002.12.4 13:32.18
1939_World_War_Corps.zip 42331 2002.12.4 13:32.24
1942(39)_Z-Plan.zip 52347 2004.3.16 14:39.6
1942_Operation_Uranus.zip 46479 2002.12.4 13:32.32
1942_Red_Star_Rising.zip 39226 2002.12.4 13:32.40
1942_Vive_Le_Reich.zip 39455 2002.12.4 13:32.46
1943_Operation_Crocodile_2-1.zip 41924 2002.12.4 13:32.54
1945_Sonnenwende.zip 49108 2002.12.4 13:33.0
1962_Red_October.zip 40936 2002.12.4 13:33.8
A_medmod.zip 2300 2002.12.4 13:33.34
CN_flag_sprites_mili_1-1.zip 2018 2002.12.4 13:34.44
CN_unit_sprites.zip 36247 2002.12.4 13:35.22
JB_unit_sprites.zip 130617 2002.12.4 13:36.2
JC_unit_sprites.zip 11448 2002.12.4 13:35.36
JayJay_unit_sprites.zip 32092 2002.12.4 13:35.14
Jeff Pinard's Overall Strategic Command Mod.zip 3404855 2004.1.22
11:30.32
Martinovs_Hex-Medal_Mod.zip 2430 2002.12.4 13:34.16
Meakins_unit_sprites.zip 10549 2002.12.4 13:35.28
MidEurope_pact.zip 51401 2005.2.1 12:21.32
Otto_flag_sprites_poli_1-1.zip 3964 2002.12.4 13:34.36
SC Trainer.ZIP 283397 2002.12.11 10:24.16
SC1_unit_sprites_1-0_CCH.zip 68606 2002.12.4 13:35.52
SgtEagle_unit_sprites.zip 8834 2002.12.4 13:35.42
1923.rar 29005 2009.9.15 21:48.26
1937_Italy saves Austria.rar 156019 2009.9.15 21:49.0
1937_Russian_option.rar 73963 2009.9.17 22:53.4
1938.rar 30217 2009.9.15 21:48.42
1938_Germano Polish alliance.rar 28885 2009.9.15 21:48.52
1940_Hitler's Diplomacy.rar 67472 2009.9.15 21:48.38
Historical Map Mod.rar 1519710 2009.9.15 21:47.14
Mod_Pastel_Map.rar 909258 2009.9.17 22:54.0
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Giftzwerg
Apr 12, 2013, 10:49:54 AM4/12/13
to
In article <5426ddc1-e8e9-4fbf-beb6-6e83999a5c93
@o9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
> > Fuck that game. Absolutely unreasonable to expect a computer player to
> > deal with that kind of nonsense.
>
> We're lucky it's Friday COB, because you agreeing with Mr Giftzwerg on
> something makes Beelzebub start looking for his skates.
Yeah, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone voicing praise for GOA
that's any stronger than, "It's not *that* bad - leprosy is worse."
@o9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
> > Fuck that game. Absolutely unreasonable to expect a computer player to
> > deal with that kind of nonsense.
>
> We're lucky it's Friday COB, because you agreeing with Mr Giftzwerg on
> something makes Beelzebub start looking for his skates.
that's any stronger than, "It's not *that* bad - leprosy is worse."
Giftzwerg
Apr 12, 2013, 10:51:55 AM4/12/13
to
In article <aa1eb1f9-8ce8-42d1-aaf3-47362d0da2f9
@x14g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
Whichever one that had the nifty NATO symbols and the camouflage ones.
@x14g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 12, 2013, 11:00:12 AM4/12/13
to
On 12 apr, 16:51, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Whichever one that had the nifty NATO symbols and the camouflage ones.
IIRC there were several with Nato symbols - I finally settled on one I
>
> Whichever one that had the nifty NATO symbols and the camouflage ones.
liked, but can't remember how it was called
Anyway, if you like to puzzle it out I can send you all the files
above.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Giftzwerg
Apr 12, 2013, 11:12:47 AM4/12/13
to
In article <f8a9fa19-1f65-4e72-b771-
58244e...@f18g2000vbs.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com
says...
> > Whichever one that had the nifty NATO symbols and the camouflage ones.
>
> IIRC there were several with Nato symbols - I finally settled on one I
> liked, but can't remember how it was called
>
> Anyway, if you like to puzzle it out I can send you all the files
> above.
Nah. I've got it at home somewhere. Thanks, though.
58244e...@f18g2000vbs.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com
says...
> > Whichever one that had the nifty NATO symbols and the camouflage ones.
>
> IIRC there were several with Nato symbols - I finally settled on one I
> liked, but can't remember how it was called
>
> Anyway, if you like to puzzle it out I can send you all the files
> above.
smr
Apr 12, 2013, 11:12:42 AM4/12/13
to
In article <5426ddc1-e8e9-4fbf-beb6-6e83999a5c93
@o9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
>
@o9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
>
I like WWI, and from glancing at screenies, GOA looked like something that
might be fun. Bought it without much thought and had to drink for like
three straight days to get over it. What a clusterfuck of a game engine
and UI.
Commander: Great War perfectly scratches the WWI grand strategy itch for
me these days.
--
smr
Giftzwerg
Apr 12, 2013, 5:13:53 PM4/12/13
to
In article <MPG.2bd1e0664...@news.ftupet.com>,
m...@shawnritchie.com says...
> > > Fuck that game. Absolutely unreasonable to expect a computer player to
> > > deal with that kind of nonsense.
> >
> > We're lucky it's Friday COB, because you agreeing with Mr Giftzwerg on
> > something makes Beelzebub start looking for his skates.
> I like WWI, and from glancing at screenies, GOA looked like something that
> might be fun. Bought it without much thought and had to drink for like
> three straight days to get over it. What a clusterfuck of a game engine
> and UI.
After a couple of frustrating days, my overall take was, "this is too
much like work." Yes, I could have learned the system. Yes, I could
have mastered it. Yes, I could have played the game.
But this is supposed to be an *entertainment* product, and it was about
as entertaining as implementing a new database application to track
parking space usage.
m...@shawnritchie.com says...
> > > Fuck that game. Absolutely unreasonable to expect a computer player to
> > > deal with that kind of nonsense.
> >
> > We're lucky it's Friday COB, because you agreeing with Mr Giftzwerg on
> > something makes Beelzebub start looking for his skates.
> We've agreed here and there; he's not wrong ALL the time ;)
I gained my knowledge of this turkey the hard way; I played it.
> I like WWI, and from glancing at screenies, GOA looked like something that
> might be fun. Bought it without much thought and had to drink for like
> three straight days to get over it. What a clusterfuck of a game engine
> and UI.
much like work." Yes, I could have learned the system. Yes, I could
have mastered it. Yes, I could have played the game.
But this is supposed to be an *entertainment* product, and it was about
as entertaining as implementing a new database application to track
parking space usage.
smr
Apr 12, 2013, 5:48:37 PM4/12/13
to
In article <MPG.2bd2431a2...@news-east.giganews.com>,
giftzw...@hotmail.com says...
fuck that. The Lordz crew has proven you can have a fine UI and nice but
subtle chrome and a game system that doesn't require a separate
spreadsheet to track AND still provides a reasonable facsimile of fighting
out WWI.
--
smr
giftzw...@hotmail.com says...
>
> In article <MPG.2bd1e0664...@news.ftupet.com>,
> m...@shawnritchie.com says...
>
> > > > Fuck that game. Absolutely unreasonable to expect a computer player to
> > > > deal with that kind of nonsense.
> > >
> > > We're lucky it's Friday COB, because you agreeing with Mr Giftzwerg on
> > > something makes Beelzebub start looking for his skates.
>
> > We've agreed here and there; he's not wrong ALL the time ;)
>
> I gained my knowledge of this turkey the hard way; I played it.
>
> > I like WWI, and from glancing at screenies, GOA looked like something that
> > might be fun. Bought it without much thought and had to drink for like
> > three straight days to get over it. What a clusterfuck of a game engine
> > and UI.
>
> After a couple of frustrating days, my overall take was, "this is too
> much like work." Yes, I could have learned the system. Yes, I could
> have mastered it. Yes, I could have played the game.
>
> But this is supposed to be an *entertainment* product, and it was about
> as entertaining as implementing a new database application to track
> parking space usage.
Agreed. I know wargames aren't supposed to be friendly or intuitive, but
> In article <MPG.2bd1e0664...@news.ftupet.com>,
> m...@shawnritchie.com says...
>
> > > > Fuck that game. Absolutely unreasonable to expect a computer player to
> > > > deal with that kind of nonsense.
> > >
> > > We're lucky it's Friday COB, because you agreeing with Mr Giftzwerg on
> > > something makes Beelzebub start looking for his skates.
>
> > We've agreed here and there; he's not wrong ALL the time ;)
>
> I gained my knowledge of this turkey the hard way; I played it.
>
> > I like WWI, and from glancing at screenies, GOA looked like something that
> > might be fun. Bought it without much thought and had to drink for like
> > three straight days to get over it. What a clusterfuck of a game engine
> > and UI.
>
> After a couple of frustrating days, my overall take was, "this is too
> much like work." Yes, I could have learned the system. Yes, I could
> have mastered it. Yes, I could have played the game.
>
> But this is supposed to be an *entertainment* product, and it was about
> as entertaining as implementing a new database application to track
> parking space usage.
fuck that. The Lordz crew has proven you can have a fine UI and nice but
subtle chrome and a game system that doesn't require a separate
spreadsheet to track AND still provides a reasonable facsimile of fighting
out WWI.
--
smr
Giftzwerg
Apr 12, 2013, 9:07:49 PM4/12/13
to
In article <MPG.2bd23d2b8...@news.ftupet.com>,
m...@shawnritchie.com says...
> > After a couple of frustrating days, my overall take was, "this is too
> > much like work." Yes, I could have learned the system. Yes, I could
> > have mastered it. Yes, I could have played the game.
> >
> > But this is supposed to be an *entertainment* product, and it was about
> > as entertaining as implementing a new database application to track
> > parking space usage.
>
> Agreed. I know wargames aren't supposed to be friendly or intuitive, but
> fuck that. The Lordz crew has proven you can have a fine UI and nice but
> subtle chrome and a game system that doesn't require a separate
> spreadsheet to track AND still provides a reasonable facsimile of fighting
> out WWI.
Agreed. 100%. And when you've played as many games as you, me, and all
of the other crufty old fogies in this group, you're really sensitive to
such things - and aren't fooled easily.
I mean, we've reached the point where **games** - at least initially -
should *not* require reading a single word in a manual. And that's
double-secret-laser true of gamers who already have an interest in
wargames and the topic of the current game - and have eleventy-zillion
games under their belt already.
(I love manuals, don't get me wrong. But manuals are something to check
out once you've gotten into the game a bit, know it's "for you," and
want to explore the subtleties that a (hopefully) deep game offers.)
So what I want from a *game* is an experience where I fire the thing up
and it takes me through a simple, easily-comprehended tutorial
experience that does two things. First, it shows me that this is going
to be game that won't be harder to learn than C++. Second, it shows me
that this game is cool and entertaining.
GUNS OF AUGUST? My first experience was like watching the first five
minutes of FREDDY GOT FINGERED; I knew *one* thing - I hated it and just
wanted it to go away. In fact, the late great Roger Ebert* wrote a
review of that film that expresses my take on GUNS OF AUGUST:
"This movie doesn't scrape the bottom of the barrel. This movie isn't
the bottom of the barrel. This movie isn't below the bottom of the
barrel. This movie doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence
with barrels."
* His politics always annoyed me, but ... Best Movie Critic EVAH; he
saved me about $10,000 in the last 35 years. Godspeed.
m...@shawnritchie.com says...
> > After a couple of frustrating days, my overall take was, "this is too
> > much like work." Yes, I could have learned the system. Yes, I could
> > have mastered it. Yes, I could have played the game.
> >
> > But this is supposed to be an *entertainment* product, and it was about
> > as entertaining as implementing a new database application to track
> > parking space usage.
>
> Agreed. I know wargames aren't supposed to be friendly or intuitive, but
> fuck that. The Lordz crew has proven you can have a fine UI and nice but
> subtle chrome and a game system that doesn't require a separate
> spreadsheet to track AND still provides a reasonable facsimile of fighting
> out WWI.
of the other crufty old fogies in this group, you're really sensitive to
such things - and aren't fooled easily.
I mean, we've reached the point where **games** - at least initially -
should *not* require reading a single word in a manual. And that's
double-secret-laser true of gamers who already have an interest in
wargames and the topic of the current game - and have eleventy-zillion
games under their belt already.
(I love manuals, don't get me wrong. But manuals are something to check
out once you've gotten into the game a bit, know it's "for you," and
want to explore the subtleties that a (hopefully) deep game offers.)
So what I want from a *game* is an experience where I fire the thing up
and it takes me through a simple, easily-comprehended tutorial
experience that does two things. First, it shows me that this is going
to be game that won't be harder to learn than C++. Second, it shows me
that this game is cool and entertaining.
GUNS OF AUGUST? My first experience was like watching the first five
minutes of FREDDY GOT FINGERED; I knew *one* thing - I hated it and just
wanted it to go away. In fact, the late great Roger Ebert* wrote a
review of that film that expresses my take on GUNS OF AUGUST:
"This movie doesn't scrape the bottom of the barrel. This movie isn't
the bottom of the barrel. This movie isn't below the bottom of the
barrel. This movie doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence
with barrels."
* His politics always annoyed me, but ... Best Movie Critic EVAH; he
saved me about $10,000 in the last 35 years. Godspeed.
Mike Kreuzer
Apr 13, 2013, 6:09:45 AM4/13/13
to
On 12/04/2013 8:43 AM, GJK wrote:
[snip]
Regards,
Mike Kreuzer
www.mikekreuzer.com
[snip]
> So, I won't be quitting my day job any time soon, but it's a nice
> little bit of extra pocket money doing something that I absolutely
> love to do.
>
Well done you, big thumbs up.
> little bit of extra pocket money doing something that I absolutely
> love to do.
>
Regards,
Mike Kreuzer
www.mikekreuzer.com
Mike Kreuzer
Apr 13, 2013, 6:11:31 AM4/13/13
to
"next phase", it had no other purpose. My brain exploded at that point &
I don't remember anything else much, though not being able to work out
how to load troops onto transports was also in there somewhere I think.
"By the designer of Guns of August" is enough to make me move on in any
case.
Regards,
Mike Kreuzer
www.mikekreuzer.com
Giftzwerg
Apr 13, 2013, 7:57:15 AM4/13/13
to
In article <kkbb0j$men$2...@speranza.aioe.org>, mi...@FIRSTNAMEkreuzer.com
says...
> > (Phases! Let's have some more phases! Never use one phase when
> > five will do! Frank Hunter never met a phase he couldn't bi- or
> > trifurcate! Perhaps I'm remembering it wrongly, but wasn't there a
> > phase that only existed as a phase to intervene between the previous
> > phase and the subsequent phase?
> >
> > Didn't I call that the, "What the Fuck" phase?)
> >
>
> I recall it as the game opening with a phase that was just here to click
> "next phase", it had no other purpose. My brain exploded at that point &
> I don't remember anything else much, though not being able to work out
> how to load troops onto transports was also in there somewhere I think.
I believe that I, too, ranted at some length at how painfully dumb that
process was - something about activating ships in two different "sea
zones" or similar nonsense. Even EMPIRE did things better than GOA ...
and when did EMPIRE come out? 1967 or something like that? I'm pretty
sure Lyndon Johnson was still in office.
> "By the designer of Guns of August" is enough to make me move on in any
> case.
And ... *Italy*?!? A plodding, phase-wrecked abortion of a game system
coupled with a campaign setting that excites *no one* - and which even
the maesters at SSG couldn't turn into a thrilling entertainment
experience?
It's like contemplating a date with a chubby "women's studies" major ...
who has tickets for a soccer game. Oh. What fun.
says...
> > (Phases! Let's have some more phases! Never use one phase when
> > five will do! Frank Hunter never met a phase he couldn't bi- or
> > trifurcate! Perhaps I'm remembering it wrongly, but wasn't there a
> > phase that only existed as a phase to intervene between the previous
> > phase and the subsequent phase?
> >
> > Didn't I call that the, "What the Fuck" phase?)
> >
>
> I recall it as the game opening with a phase that was just here to click
> "next phase", it had no other purpose. My brain exploded at that point &
> I don't remember anything else much, though not being able to work out
> how to load troops onto transports was also in there somewhere I think.
process was - something about activating ships in two different "sea
zones" or similar nonsense. Even EMPIRE did things better than GOA ...
and when did EMPIRE come out? 1967 or something like that? I'm pretty
sure Lyndon Johnson was still in office.
> "By the designer of Guns of August" is enough to make me move on in any
> case.
coupled with a campaign setting that excites *no one* - and which even
the maesters at SSG couldn't turn into a thrilling entertainment
experience?
It's like contemplating a date with a chubby "women's studies" major ...
who has tickets for a soccer game. Oh. What fun.
GJK
Apr 13, 2013, 12:10:12 PM4/13/13
to
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 15, 2013, 3:02:50 AM4/15/13
to
On 12 apr, 23:48, smr <m...@shawnritchie.com> wrote:
>
> Agreed. I know wargames aren't supposed to be friendly or intuitive, but
> fuck that. The Lordz crew has proven you can have a fine UI and nice but
> subtle chrome and a game system that doesn't require a separate
> spreadsheet to track AND still provides a reasonable facsimile of fighting
> out WWI.
I can attest to the fact those guys tried *real* hard to achieve this
>
> Agreed. I know wargames aren't supposed to be friendly or intuitive, but
> fuck that. The Lordz crew has proven you can have a fine UI and nice but
> subtle chrome and a game system that doesn't require a separate
> spreadsheet to track AND still provides a reasonable facsimile of fighting
> out WWI.
- I got a demo of what the likes of Paradox would consider a fully
patched game 18 months before it actually got released.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Holdit
Apr 15, 2013, 7:54:29 AM4/15/13
to
In article <MPG.2bd279f34...@news-east.giganews.com>,
giftzw...@hotmail.com says...
years have been discovering the world of Nintendo DS and Android
Tablets. They've never read a manual and have had no instruction from
me* or their mother, yet they have no difficulty finding their way round
an assortment of different applications on those two platforms.
Now, I'm not saying that they particularly clever kids (well, they are,
of course, but that's not the point, heh-heh). Their contemporaries are
all doing the same thing. It seems to me, then that this is a credit to
the abilities of the people who design the hardware and software
interfaces.
The younger one did come to me once with an unclearable level of Angry
Birds: Star Wars. She knew she could get a particular bird to shoot a
laser beam by tapping the screen, but hadn't worked out that she needed
to tap onto the target to get the desired result - usually a tap
anywhere gets a special ability to work as required.
On another occasion, a year earlier, she was trying to do a voice
recording on her sister's DS but was unable to. A quick look showed me
all the available "slots" were full. "You could delete one to make
room," I suggested, "but you'd better wait until R gets home and ask her
first." So I declined to show her how to delete them. A few minutes
later she reported success. "I figured out how to delete the ones that
were there."
"I told you to wait for R. How many did you delete?"
"All of them."
"Well don't complain to me when she goes mad at you..."
The point I'm making here is that if designers can achieve this level of
intuitive usability for computer-inexperienced primary school kids, how
hard can it be to produce some thing intuitive for generally computer-
savvy adults?
And, looking at it from another angle...if Facebook can get away with
that dreadful interface...how hard can it really be? ;-)
Holdit
--
"In economy no frills; in business class it'll all be free - including
the blowjobs."
- Michael O'Leary
giftzw...@hotmail.com says...
> I mean, we've reached the point where **games** - at least initially -
> should *not* require reading a single word in a manual.
>
I have two daughters, 8 and 6 years old, who over the past couple of
> should *not* require reading a single word in a manual.
>
years have been discovering the world of Nintendo DS and Android
Tablets. They've never read a manual and have had no instruction from
me* or their mother, yet they have no difficulty finding their way round
an assortment of different applications on those two platforms.
Now, I'm not saying that they particularly clever kids (well, they are,
of course, but that's not the point, heh-heh). Their contemporaries are
all doing the same thing. It seems to me, then that this is a credit to
the abilities of the people who design the hardware and software
interfaces.
The younger one did come to me once with an unclearable level of Angry
Birds: Star Wars. She knew she could get a particular bird to shoot a
laser beam by tapping the screen, but hadn't worked out that she needed
to tap onto the target to get the desired result - usually a tap
anywhere gets a special ability to work as required.
On another occasion, a year earlier, she was trying to do a voice
recording on her sister's DS but was unable to. A quick look showed me
all the available "slots" were full. "You could delete one to make
room," I suggested, "but you'd better wait until R gets home and ask her
first." So I declined to show her how to delete them. A few minutes
later she reported success. "I figured out how to delete the ones that
were there."
"I told you to wait for R. How many did you delete?"
"All of them."
"Well don't complain to me when she goes mad at you..."
The point I'm making here is that if designers can achieve this level of
intuitive usability for computer-inexperienced primary school kids, how
hard can it be to produce some thing intuitive for generally computer-
savvy adults?
And, looking at it from another angle...if Facebook can get away with
that dreadful interface...how hard can it really be? ;-)
Holdit
--
"In economy no frills; in business class it'll all be free - including
the blowjobs."
- Michael O'Leary
smr
Apr 15, 2013, 10:07:48 AM4/15/13
to
In article <dbde0372-1e93-461f-88e6-eb7d48919ae7
@z4g2000vbz.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
Paradox games are the games I _really really_ want to like, but just can't
due to a combo of incomprehensible UI and bugginess. Though, to be fair,
according to the thread on Something Awful for Paradox games, which is
high-volume and very thorough, their recent releases have been pretty
decent out of the box. But still, it's nice to buy something from Lordz
and have a strong reason to believe that it's going to a) be intuitive b)
be utterly playable and c) be bug-free from the get-go.
--
smr
@z4g2000vbz.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
due to a combo of incomprehensible UI and bugginess. Though, to be fair,
according to the thread on Something Awful for Paradox games, which is
high-volume and very thorough, their recent releases have been pretty
decent out of the box. But still, it's nice to buy something from Lordz
and have a strong reason to believe that it's going to a) be intuitive b)
be utterly playable and c) be bug-free from the get-go.
--
smr
Giftzwerg
Apr 15, 2013, 3:50:22 PM4/15/13
to
In article <MPG.2bd5facf9...@news-europe.giganews.com>,
holdit...@indigoTHE.ieCAPS says...
> The point I'm making here is that if designers can achieve this level of
> intuitive usability for computer-inexperienced primary school kids, how
> hard can it be to produce some thing intuitive for generally computer-
> savvy adults?
>
> And, looking at it from another angle...if Facebook can get away with
> that dreadful interface...how hard can it really be? ;-)
I got an iTunes giftcard, and - silly me - bought PHANTOM LEADER for the
iPad. I defy either of your children to puzzle out how the fuck to play
this game - because I'm 52 years old, IT Director at the 10th largest
company in the state, and hold two bachelor's and a master's degree ...
and damned if I can make head nor tails outta this melange of nonsense.
First, the iTunes entry says there's a Tutorial. There isn't, unless
pressing a button that brings up tooltip-style boxes that cover the
whole screen counts.
Sorry, but a "tutorial" is a step-by-step, handholding play-through of a
short, simple scenario or two - small and EZ to grasp, but detailed
enough that it covers, "what to do, and why are you doing it."
There's nothing like this in PHANTOM LEADER. I recovered my FLIGHT
COMMANDER 2 rulebook, and found a lovely, two-mission (scenario and
campaign...) tutorial that runs for almost 20 pages.
And that was for a much, much more intuitive game.
holdit...@indigoTHE.ieCAPS says...
> The point I'm making here is that if designers can achieve this level of
> intuitive usability for computer-inexperienced primary school kids, how
> hard can it be to produce some thing intuitive for generally computer-
> savvy adults?
>
> And, looking at it from another angle...if Facebook can get away with
> that dreadful interface...how hard can it really be? ;-)
iPad. I defy either of your children to puzzle out how the fuck to play
this game - because I'm 52 years old, IT Director at the 10th largest
company in the state, and hold two bachelor's and a master's degree ...
and damned if I can make head nor tails outta this melange of nonsense.
First, the iTunes entry says there's a Tutorial. There isn't, unless
pressing a button that brings up tooltip-style boxes that cover the
whole screen counts.
Sorry, but a "tutorial" is a step-by-step, handholding play-through of a
short, simple scenario or two - small and EZ to grasp, but detailed
enough that it covers, "what to do, and why are you doing it."
There's nothing like this in PHANTOM LEADER. I recovered my FLIGHT
COMMANDER 2 rulebook, and found a lovely, two-mission (scenario and
campaign...) tutorial that runs for almost 20 pages.
And that was for a much, much more intuitive game.
Message has been deleted
Giftzwerg
Apr 15, 2013, 9:47:29 PM4/15/13
to
In article <690621017387767662.74...@news.aioe.org>,
ade...@inbox.com says...
> > There's nothing like this in PHANTOM LEADER. I recovered my FLIGHT
> > COMMANDER 2 rulebook, and found a lovely, two-mission (scenario and
> > campaign...) tutorial that runs for almost 20 pages.
> >
> > And that was for a much, much more intuitive game.
>
> Hey, did you copy my review of Phantom Leader? It is one of those games I
> like to reinstall once in a while, look at it and go, I am hardcore, before
> deleting it again...
I knew I was in trouble when I was asked to outfit my "squadron" with
pilots, and was given X "skilled" and X "green" and X "veteran" ... and
I realized that to fill the skills-bill, I would have to selected a set
of airplanes that were not homogeneous.
So far as I know, the USAF and the USN does *not* assign pilots to a
particular squadron based on a differing set of skill levels ... but
because they all fly *the same airplane*.
Perhaps tomorrow I'll fire up the ol' iPad and take the group through a
newbie's puzzlement at the insanity of a Dan Verssen cardgame.
ade...@inbox.com says...
> > There's nothing like this in PHANTOM LEADER. I recovered my FLIGHT
> > COMMANDER 2 rulebook, and found a lovely, two-mission (scenario and
> > campaign...) tutorial that runs for almost 20 pages.
> >
> > And that was for a much, much more intuitive game.
>
> like to reinstall once in a while, look at it and go, I am hardcore, before
> deleting it again...
I knew I was in trouble when I was asked to outfit my "squadron" with
pilots, and was given X "skilled" and X "green" and X "veteran" ... and
I realized that to fill the skills-bill, I would have to selected a set
of airplanes that were not homogeneous.
So far as I know, the USAF and the USN does *not* assign pilots to a
particular squadron based on a differing set of skill levels ... but
because they all fly *the same airplane*.
Perhaps tomorrow I'll fire up the ol' iPad and take the group through a
newbie's puzzlement at the insanity of a Dan Verssen cardgame.
Message has been deleted
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 16, 2013, 2:43:02 AM4/16/13
to
On 15 apr, 21:50, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sorry, but a "tutorial" is a step-by-step, handholding play-through of a
> short, simple scenario or two - small and EZ to grasp, but detailed
> enough that it covers, "what to do, and why are you doing it."
There's a number of videos on BGG that take you through the game.
>
> Sorry, but a "tutorial" is a step-by-step, handholding play-through of a
> short, simple scenario or two - small and EZ to grasp, but detailed
> enough that it covers, "what to do, and why are you doing it."
the Marco Arnaud (sp) one is pretty good
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 16, 2013, 2:46:50 AM4/16/13
to
On 16 apr, 03:47, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <690621017387767662.740234adelphi-inbox....@news.aioe.org>,
> adel...@inbox.com says...
New Guinea who just got dropped into Times Square and is completely
bewildered and stupified.
I'm sorry, but the rest of the world has seen cars before and traffic
lights and is familiar with the tropes of cars driving on the right
and such so I can assure you that your experience isn't universal and
to get up to speed with modern day wargaming you'll have to toughen it
out a bit
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
> In article <690621017387767662.740234adelphi-inbox....@news.aioe.org>,
> adel...@inbox.com says...
>
> > > There's nothing like this in PHANTOM LEADER. I recovered my FLIGHT
> > > COMMANDER 2 rulebook, and found a lovely, two-mission (scenario and
> > > campaign...) tutorial that runs for almost 20 pages.
>
> > > And that was for a much, much more intuitive game.
>
> > Hey, did you copy my review of Phantom Leader? It is one of those games I
> > like to reinstall once in a while, look at it and go, I am hardcore, before
> > deleting it again...
>
> I knew I was in trouble when I was asked to outfit my "squadron" with
> pilots, and was given X "skilled" and X "green" and X "veteran" ... and
> I realized that to fill the skills-bill, I would have to selected a set
> of airplanes that were not homogeneous.
>
> So far as I know, the USAF and the USN does *not* assign pilots to a
> particular squadron based on a differing set of skill levels ... but
> because they all fly *the same airplane*.
>
> Perhaps tomorrow I'll fire up the ol' iPad and take the group through a
> newbie's puzzlement at the insanity of a Dan Verssen cardgame.
You sound like an aboriginal from high-up in the mountains of Papua
> > > There's nothing like this in PHANTOM LEADER. I recovered my FLIGHT
> > > COMMANDER 2 rulebook, and found a lovely, two-mission (scenario and
> > > campaign...) tutorial that runs for almost 20 pages.
>
> > > And that was for a much, much more intuitive game.
>
> > Hey, did you copy my review of Phantom Leader? It is one of those games I
> > like to reinstall once in a while, look at it and go, I am hardcore, before
> > deleting it again...
>
> I knew I was in trouble when I was asked to outfit my "squadron" with
> pilots, and was given X "skilled" and X "green" and X "veteran" ... and
> I realized that to fill the skills-bill, I would have to selected a set
> of airplanes that were not homogeneous.
>
> So far as I know, the USAF and the USN does *not* assign pilots to a
> particular squadron based on a differing set of skill levels ... but
> because they all fly *the same airplane*.
>
> Perhaps tomorrow I'll fire up the ol' iPad and take the group through a
> newbie's puzzlement at the insanity of a Dan Verssen cardgame.
New Guinea who just got dropped into Times Square and is completely
bewildered and stupified.
I'm sorry, but the rest of the world has seen cars before and traffic
lights and is familiar with the tropes of cars driving on the right
and such so I can assure you that your experience isn't universal and
to get up to speed with modern day wargaming you'll have to toughen it
out a bit
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Giftzwerg
Apr 16, 2013, 7:45:22 AM4/16/13
to
In article <7865eb7d-bdf3-44b7-b3e5-9efe1aa5e583
@a14g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
\
college?
Come now. Why the hell should I need to go to some online jackoff to
get a tutorial for a game I just *bought*? I mean, the videos that Dave
O'Connor did for BFTB were nice, but they weren't *necessary*; I'd been
playing the game system happily for half a decade, on the strength of
the tutorial that came with HTTR.
@a14g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
\
> > Sorry, but a "tutorial" is a step-by-step, handholding play-through of a
> > short, simple scenario or two - small and EZ to grasp, but detailed
> > enough that it covers, "what to do, and why are you doing it."
>
> There's a number of videos on BGG that take you through the game.
>
> the Marco Arnaud (sp) one is pretty good
And, of course, I could sign up and take a course at a local community
> > short, simple scenario or two - small and EZ to grasp, but detailed
> > enough that it covers, "what to do, and why are you doing it."
>
> There's a number of videos on BGG that take you through the game.
>
> the Marco Arnaud (sp) one is pretty good
college?
Come now. Why the hell should I need to go to some online jackoff to
get a tutorial for a game I just *bought*? I mean, the videos that Dave
O'Connor did for BFTB were nice, but they weren't *necessary*; I'd been
playing the game system happily for half a decade, on the strength of
the tutorial that came with HTTR.
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 16, 2013, 8:15:34 AM4/16/13
to
On 16 apr, 13:45, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Come now. Why the hell should I need to go to some online jackoff to
> get a tutorial for a game I just *bought*?
Because smart developers pour their effort there where they get the
>
> Come now. Why the hell should I need to go to some online jackoff to
> get a tutorial for a game I just *bought*?
biggest ROI for their time.
Producing elaborate tutorials for this game isn't a smart move because
most of the people who buy it will have played the cardboard version
and the few who haven't can get up to speed with what's available on
the 'net - the manual, video tutorials, etc.
This is not a big production game, it's a niche game within a niche
hobby requiring / demanding some effort from the novice gamer.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Giftzwerg
Apr 16, 2013, 9:44:42 AM4/16/13
to
In article <7a2c1317-87c7-4285-8f4e-b092570f34f4
@y2g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
> > Perhaps tomorrow I'll fire up the ol' iPad and take the group through a
> > newbie's puzzlement at the insanity of a Dan Verssen cardgame.
>
> You sound like an aboriginal from high-up in the mountains of Papua
> New Guinea who just got dropped into Times Square and is completely
> bewildered and stupified.
>
> I'm sorry, but the rest of the world has seen cars before and traffic
> lights and is familiar with the tropes of cars driving on the right
> and such so I can assure you that your experience isn't universal and
> to get up to speed with modern day wargaming you'll have to toughen it
> out a bit.
OK, I'm always open to the theory that the Emperor really has clothes,
and I'm just too stupid or too much a hick to see them. Let's find out!
All right, I fire up PHANTOM LEADER on my gen3 iPad and I get a screen
that shows a USAF F-4 and says, "Touch to Start." This is virtually the
*last* screen in this shitware that's intuitive. The next screen is the
load/save dialog. I must have a couple of brain cells still working,
cuz I'm able to hit "new game."
"Campaign selection" screen appears. Also reasonably useful. I pick
"USN" as my service, "1972" as the time, and "Short" as the duration of
the campaign. OK, I reach "Squadron Selection." I see a Pilot Roster
list on the left, and some cards with airplanes on them on the right;
those must be the pilots. It's odd, though, because there are *two*
cards for each pilot, one with one skill level, one with another.
OK, I guess I'm supposed to pick two "Green" pilots, because next to the
word "Green" is "0/2". The tooltip non-tutorial tells me I can touch
"Green" to filter on that. OK, now I'm looking at only the "Green"
pilots ... that all have another card marked "Average." I guess these
are the multitalented guys who are both green and average. The cards
have a pile of numbers on them, so I select the "?" symbol, but it
explains them not at all.
All right, I select "Whiplash" as my first squadron-mate ... and here
comes a problem. Whiplash is the only green pilot who flys an F-4
Phantom II. The next green guy, "Stargazer," flys an A-4 Skyhawk.
Apparently, I'm commanding the only squadron in the US Navy that has
non-homogeneous aircraft. Seems like a complete logistical disaster in
the making (and FLIGHT COMMANDER 2 gets it right, of course ...), but
fuck it, gimme a Skyhawk. I could pick an F-8 Crusader, but I'm pretty
sure the USN didn't even deploy them on the same *carrier* as F-4s.
OK, so I pick the "Skilled" pilots and now I've got a "squadron" of 6 F-
4 Phantoms and two Skyhawks.
Next, a screen appears that says I can spend "Special options" on
promoting pilots. Down at the bottom of the screen it says "VP:0 SO:12.
So I guess I can pick 6 pilots for promotion.
But do I want to promote them? What are "Special option" points? How
do I get them? What else are they good for? If I use them up promoting
pilots, will I get any more? Will I be able to arm the planes I have?
What am I being asked to decide here? OK, fuck it, I'll promote two
pilots and keep the other 8 SO points for ... ??????
Okey-doke. Day 1 of 4, and I pick "Ready." An information screen
appears that tells me my objective is to pick a target. A "supporting
documents" area shows me a target card and "explains" what each number
is. But it doesn't *explain* the numbers. For example, there's a
number for "Politics." What does "1" mean in the "politics" field? A
Republican? A Communist? John Kerry?
I have two choices for target, and I pick "POL Storage Facility." It's
near the coast, and I like the softness of a nice oil tank.
Now I get a screen that tells me my next Objective will be to determine
and place ... "sites?" And it shows me a grid with the target card at
the center, and red counters that appear to be AA units.
What "site" am I supposed to "place!?!" I can't seem to move the AA
counters or target ... as it should be, I suppose. But why the fucking
fuck am on the screen?!? I hit the "?" button and I get:
"Sites are placed in Approach Areas and the Center based on the current
Target Card."
"If there are too many counters in a region, you can scroll the region
to see more."
"Tap to enlarge the target card."
"After reviewing the sites, tap Continue."
What. The. Fucking. Fuck.
At the top of the screen are a bunch of buttons, so I start pressing
them. "Event deck" shows me a bunch of cards, one marked:
"Strike: Save this card [Save it? How!?!? Take a screenshot?]. You
may play it after drawing an event card to cancel the event, then
discard this card."
Everybody following along? Having a good laugh at dumb rube Giftzwerg
who didn't learn what "Pentagon Support: Move politics counter 1 to the
left" meant back in 2nd grade?
OK. Continue. I have no idea what this screen is for, so I might as
well leave it. My next objective; assign pilots to the mission, and arm
the planes. OK, I'll take two F-4s armed with MK-82 bombs and
Sidewinders, and a Skyhawk with Mk-84 bombs. Celebrate diversity!
That's the Navy way!
OK, now I get to draw an "Event Card." The thrill factor is climbing!!
I draw "SAM site," so I guess this is a bad thing. An attack card
appears, with a huge math problem emblazoned on it. Oops, I touch the
pilot card, and it disappears. What now? Continue is grayed out. I
can "discard" or "skip". Discard what? Skip what? I wish I'd skipped
this game, and will shortly discard it.
OK, I go "skip" and the pilot card changes to "UNDER ATTACK". I guess
it wasn't the attack I skipped. My choices here are "Evade" or "Skip."
I skipped before, and it didn't do me much good, so I'll Evade.
Dice roll! Nice, on-screen effect, that. I roll a 5 and a 1. Or a 1
and a 5. I got either 15 or 51. Both dice are the same color. But a
card pops up with "Event Attack ROLL: 1 RESULT:1 MISS OK."
Now an "ATTACK 2 of 3" card pops up. I guess the SAM site gets to shoot
again?? I can't shoot back? I can "Discard" or "skip." The help
button says I can cancel the attack by discarding my weapons; I guess
the NVA was being particularly chivalrous in 1972. Screw them, I don't
discard my weapons. OK, I skip and skip again.
Dice roll! Only one this time, and I get a 3. MISS.
Now it's Attack 3 of 3. Discard or skip. Skip. Skip again. One die
again. Four. MISS.
I absolutely *love* the button that keeps coming up marked "No Action."
You press it and ... nothing happens!! Can't fault the designer for
lying.
OK, now I'm entering another phase where I "abort aircraft who [sic] may
not survive the mission." Since I haven't been hit, this should be a
cakewalk; one wonders why the screen appears at all.
I move my three airplanes around into one of the eight different zones.
It is, in fact, the same zone the system put them into. Since I haven't
the foggiest fucking clue what benefit might accrue from putting some or
all of them in a different zone, I might as well leave well enough
alone.
Now I ready myself to "Determine and place Bandits." Fuck that! I'm
not placing any goddamn *bandits*! Oh, goody. Continuing to the screen
shows a "No bandits" counter on the target. I guess it wasn't *me* who
had the objective of placing bandits. Dunno who's in charge of this,
but apparently he picked the wrong card or something.
Continue. Another Event Card!!!! And a whole screen to tell me I'm
about to draw one! I draw "All Good Things". Good, no? "Surprise:
Sites and Bandits cannot attack during Turn 1."
Continue. Oh, my fucking God. "Turn 1 of 4"
OK, attack screen. "Over-target: Fast pilots attack." What's a
"fast" pilot? Do I have any? The "?" says "Pilots that can attack are
highlighted in green." OK, "Poco" is highlighted in green, so since
he's already selected, I press the "Fire" button ... and a big box pops
up that says "Only Fast pilots attack this phase." Why is Poco
highlighted if he can't attack?!?!
Ah. I see. The green highlight means only that Poco was selected. I
guess some other subtle shade of green would indicate that he was
"fast" and could attack. And ... WTF? "Fast?" Two of these planes are
capable of flying at 1,450 miles per hour. The "Slow" one can only go
about 650 MPH.
OK, I guess I don't have any "Fast" pilots, SO WHY DOES THIS SCREEN
APPEAR *AT ALL*?!? Sign. Continue.
Defenses attack screen. "Stargazer" appears to be under fire from a red
blob of pixels denoting an NVA S-60 AAA site. My only option is
"Skip." Skip the attack? Skip the "Surpress" button WHICH IS GRAYED
OUT? Skip what? Continue is grayed out, too, so I guess I'll skip the
mystery. Skip.
Now we're back to "Evade" or skip. What should I do? I certainly want
to evade the gunfire, but does evading mean I'll miss the target? Have
to go home? Pick a card from "Community Chest?". Fuck it, I evade.
I roll a 4 and a 10. Either 410 or 104. Who knows. Only the 4 seems
to have an impact though, since I get a card that says "ROLL: 4 All Good
Things -1 RESULT:3 MISS OK." OK with me. Looks like I dodged that
bullet.
New screen; All defense attacks are complete. OK ... they have a pile
of AAA counters, but I'll take what I can get. More comedy; I can go
"No Action" or I can "Continue." The "No Action" again does exactly
what it did before; serves as a visual confirmation that the designer
has a button class with two states, "Up" and "Down." I press it a
couple of times, then Continue.
Ah, now it's time for all the "Slow" aircraft to attack. Since none of
my planes were "fast", must be I finally get to shoot. I pick my pal
"Poco", select a Mk-82 bomb, tap the POL Facility target, and hit
"Fire".
"THE DEFENSE IS NOT IN RANGE"
OK, I'll pick that S-60 gun that was just shooting at us, and give it a
whiff of Mk-82 bombs.
"THE DEFENSE IS NOT IN RANGE"
Is *anything* in range? Nope. What the fucking fuck am I doing in a
screen to attack the target when NOTHING IS IN RANGE!?!?!?!
Next screen. Movement. Ah. Maybe I can get in range?!? Pretty
please?? OK, I swarm my three jets into the area with the S-60; fucker
missed before, maybe he'll miss again. Note that I have no fucking clue
what his range is, or whether moving has an effect on who else can shoot
at me. In fact, I'm just moving for the sake of moving, and hoping to
stumble into range.
Oddly, my choices are "End Mission" and "Continue." Shit, I didn't get
this far to abort! Continue.
"Turn # 2 of 4" Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh.
OK. I give up. This is the most staggeringly stupid fucking mishmash
of boardgamey horseshit I ever saw. And here I was dissing GUNS OF
AUGUST as the poster kid for awfulness? This is stunningly worse; not
only do I have no idea what I'm doing or why I'm doing it, but the game
is so soaked in boardgameyness that even a whole life of reading about
real jet combat doesn't help me.
Fer fook's seke, FLIGHT COMMANDER 2 is *old enough to vote* (next year,
it'll be old enough to *drink*...), and it managed to capture jet combat
in an intuitive way. And yet, it featured a 20-page tutoral - the first
thing you encounter in the manual - that explained what the player can
do, what the player should do, and why it's a good idea to do it. At
every turn, it married the simulation to the real-world thing that was
being simulated.
PHANTOM LEADER is just about turning over cards and rolling dice; it's
about as close to real jet combat as playing cribbage using cards with a
photo of Duke Cunningham wearning a flight jacket on them.
If this is what "Modern Day Wargaming" is about, then I want no part of
it. If this is the best I can get, then I hereby quit the hobby
forever.
@y2g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
> > Perhaps tomorrow I'll fire up the ol' iPad and take the group through a
> > newbie's puzzlement at the insanity of a Dan Verssen cardgame.
>
> You sound like an aboriginal from high-up in the mountains of Papua
> New Guinea who just got dropped into Times Square and is completely
> bewildered and stupified.
>
> I'm sorry, but the rest of the world has seen cars before and traffic
> lights and is familiar with the tropes of cars driving on the right
> and such so I can assure you that your experience isn't universal and
> to get up to speed with modern day wargaming you'll have to toughen it
OK, I'm always open to the theory that the Emperor really has clothes,
and I'm just too stupid or too much a hick to see them. Let's find out!
All right, I fire up PHANTOM LEADER on my gen3 iPad and I get a screen
that shows a USAF F-4 and says, "Touch to Start." This is virtually the
*last* screen in this shitware that's intuitive. The next screen is the
load/save dialog. I must have a couple of brain cells still working,
cuz I'm able to hit "new game."
"Campaign selection" screen appears. Also reasonably useful. I pick
"USN" as my service, "1972" as the time, and "Short" as the duration of
the campaign. OK, I reach "Squadron Selection." I see a Pilot Roster
list on the left, and some cards with airplanes on them on the right;
those must be the pilots. It's odd, though, because there are *two*
cards for each pilot, one with one skill level, one with another.
OK, I guess I'm supposed to pick two "Green" pilots, because next to the
word "Green" is "0/2". The tooltip non-tutorial tells me I can touch
"Green" to filter on that. OK, now I'm looking at only the "Green"
pilots ... that all have another card marked "Average." I guess these
are the multitalented guys who are both green and average. The cards
have a pile of numbers on them, so I select the "?" symbol, but it
explains them not at all.
All right, I select "Whiplash" as my first squadron-mate ... and here
comes a problem. Whiplash is the only green pilot who flys an F-4
Phantom II. The next green guy, "Stargazer," flys an A-4 Skyhawk.
Apparently, I'm commanding the only squadron in the US Navy that has
non-homogeneous aircraft. Seems like a complete logistical disaster in
the making (and FLIGHT COMMANDER 2 gets it right, of course ...), but
fuck it, gimme a Skyhawk. I could pick an F-8 Crusader, but I'm pretty
sure the USN didn't even deploy them on the same *carrier* as F-4s.
OK, so I pick the "Skilled" pilots and now I've got a "squadron" of 6 F-
4 Phantoms and two Skyhawks.
Next, a screen appears that says I can spend "Special options" on
promoting pilots. Down at the bottom of the screen it says "VP:0 SO:12.
So I guess I can pick 6 pilots for promotion.
But do I want to promote them? What are "Special option" points? How
do I get them? What else are they good for? If I use them up promoting
pilots, will I get any more? Will I be able to arm the planes I have?
What am I being asked to decide here? OK, fuck it, I'll promote two
pilots and keep the other 8 SO points for ... ??????
Okey-doke. Day 1 of 4, and I pick "Ready." An information screen
appears that tells me my objective is to pick a target. A "supporting
documents" area shows me a target card and "explains" what each number
is. But it doesn't *explain* the numbers. For example, there's a
number for "Politics." What does "1" mean in the "politics" field? A
Republican? A Communist? John Kerry?
I have two choices for target, and I pick "POL Storage Facility." It's
near the coast, and I like the softness of a nice oil tank.
Now I get a screen that tells me my next Objective will be to determine
and place ... "sites?" And it shows me a grid with the target card at
the center, and red counters that appear to be AA units.
What "site" am I supposed to "place!?!" I can't seem to move the AA
counters or target ... as it should be, I suppose. But why the fucking
fuck am on the screen?!? I hit the "?" button and I get:
"Sites are placed in Approach Areas and the Center based on the current
Target Card."
"If there are too many counters in a region, you can scroll the region
to see more."
"Tap to enlarge the target card."
"After reviewing the sites, tap Continue."
What. The. Fucking. Fuck.
At the top of the screen are a bunch of buttons, so I start pressing
them. "Event deck" shows me a bunch of cards, one marked:
"Strike: Save this card [Save it? How!?!? Take a screenshot?]. You
may play it after drawing an event card to cancel the event, then
discard this card."
Everybody following along? Having a good laugh at dumb rube Giftzwerg
who didn't learn what "Pentagon Support: Move politics counter 1 to the
left" meant back in 2nd grade?
OK. Continue. I have no idea what this screen is for, so I might as
well leave it. My next objective; assign pilots to the mission, and arm
the planes. OK, I'll take two F-4s armed with MK-82 bombs and
Sidewinders, and a Skyhawk with Mk-84 bombs. Celebrate diversity!
That's the Navy way!
OK, now I get to draw an "Event Card." The thrill factor is climbing!!
I draw "SAM site," so I guess this is a bad thing. An attack card
appears, with a huge math problem emblazoned on it. Oops, I touch the
pilot card, and it disappears. What now? Continue is grayed out. I
can "discard" or "skip". Discard what? Skip what? I wish I'd skipped
this game, and will shortly discard it.
OK, I go "skip" and the pilot card changes to "UNDER ATTACK". I guess
it wasn't the attack I skipped. My choices here are "Evade" or "Skip."
I skipped before, and it didn't do me much good, so I'll Evade.
Dice roll! Nice, on-screen effect, that. I roll a 5 and a 1. Or a 1
and a 5. I got either 15 or 51. Both dice are the same color. But a
card pops up with "Event Attack ROLL: 1 RESULT:1 MISS OK."
Now an "ATTACK 2 of 3" card pops up. I guess the SAM site gets to shoot
again?? I can't shoot back? I can "Discard" or "skip." The help
button says I can cancel the attack by discarding my weapons; I guess
the NVA was being particularly chivalrous in 1972. Screw them, I don't
discard my weapons. OK, I skip and skip again.
Dice roll! Only one this time, and I get a 3. MISS.
Now it's Attack 3 of 3. Discard or skip. Skip. Skip again. One die
again. Four. MISS.
I absolutely *love* the button that keeps coming up marked "No Action."
You press it and ... nothing happens!! Can't fault the designer for
lying.
OK, now I'm entering another phase where I "abort aircraft who [sic] may
not survive the mission." Since I haven't been hit, this should be a
cakewalk; one wonders why the screen appears at all.
I move my three airplanes around into one of the eight different zones.
It is, in fact, the same zone the system put them into. Since I haven't
the foggiest fucking clue what benefit might accrue from putting some or
all of them in a different zone, I might as well leave well enough
alone.
Now I ready myself to "Determine and place Bandits." Fuck that! I'm
not placing any goddamn *bandits*! Oh, goody. Continuing to the screen
shows a "No bandits" counter on the target. I guess it wasn't *me* who
had the objective of placing bandits. Dunno who's in charge of this,
but apparently he picked the wrong card or something.
Continue. Another Event Card!!!! And a whole screen to tell me I'm
about to draw one! I draw "All Good Things". Good, no? "Surprise:
Sites and Bandits cannot attack during Turn 1."
Continue. Oh, my fucking God. "Turn 1 of 4"
OK, attack screen. "Over-target: Fast pilots attack." What's a
"fast" pilot? Do I have any? The "?" says "Pilots that can attack are
highlighted in green." OK, "Poco" is highlighted in green, so since
he's already selected, I press the "Fire" button ... and a big box pops
up that says "Only Fast pilots attack this phase." Why is Poco
highlighted if he can't attack?!?!
Ah. I see. The green highlight means only that Poco was selected. I
guess some other subtle shade of green would indicate that he was
"fast" and could attack. And ... WTF? "Fast?" Two of these planes are
capable of flying at 1,450 miles per hour. The "Slow" one can only go
about 650 MPH.
OK, I guess I don't have any "Fast" pilots, SO WHY DOES THIS SCREEN
APPEAR *AT ALL*?!? Sign. Continue.
Defenses attack screen. "Stargazer" appears to be under fire from a red
blob of pixels denoting an NVA S-60 AAA site. My only option is
"Skip." Skip the attack? Skip the "Surpress" button WHICH IS GRAYED
OUT? Skip what? Continue is grayed out, too, so I guess I'll skip the
mystery. Skip.
Now we're back to "Evade" or skip. What should I do? I certainly want
to evade the gunfire, but does evading mean I'll miss the target? Have
to go home? Pick a card from "Community Chest?". Fuck it, I evade.
I roll a 4 and a 10. Either 410 or 104. Who knows. Only the 4 seems
to have an impact though, since I get a card that says "ROLL: 4 All Good
Things -1 RESULT:3 MISS OK." OK with me. Looks like I dodged that
bullet.
New screen; All defense attacks are complete. OK ... they have a pile
of AAA counters, but I'll take what I can get. More comedy; I can go
"No Action" or I can "Continue." The "No Action" again does exactly
what it did before; serves as a visual confirmation that the designer
has a button class with two states, "Up" and "Down." I press it a
couple of times, then Continue.
Ah, now it's time for all the "Slow" aircraft to attack. Since none of
my planes were "fast", must be I finally get to shoot. I pick my pal
"Poco", select a Mk-82 bomb, tap the POL Facility target, and hit
"Fire".
"THE DEFENSE IS NOT IN RANGE"
OK, I'll pick that S-60 gun that was just shooting at us, and give it a
whiff of Mk-82 bombs.
"THE DEFENSE IS NOT IN RANGE"
Is *anything* in range? Nope. What the fucking fuck am I doing in a
screen to attack the target when NOTHING IS IN RANGE!?!?!?!
Next screen. Movement. Ah. Maybe I can get in range?!? Pretty
please?? OK, I swarm my three jets into the area with the S-60; fucker
missed before, maybe he'll miss again. Note that I have no fucking clue
what his range is, or whether moving has an effect on who else can shoot
at me. In fact, I'm just moving for the sake of moving, and hoping to
stumble into range.
Oddly, my choices are "End Mission" and "Continue." Shit, I didn't get
this far to abort! Continue.
"Turn # 2 of 4" Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh.
OK. I give up. This is the most staggeringly stupid fucking mishmash
of boardgamey horseshit I ever saw. And here I was dissing GUNS OF
AUGUST as the poster kid for awfulness? This is stunningly worse; not
only do I have no idea what I'm doing or why I'm doing it, but the game
is so soaked in boardgameyness that even a whole life of reading about
real jet combat doesn't help me.
Fer fook's seke, FLIGHT COMMANDER 2 is *old enough to vote* (next year,
it'll be old enough to *drink*...), and it managed to capture jet combat
in an intuitive way. And yet, it featured a 20-page tutoral - the first
thing you encounter in the manual - that explained what the player can
do, what the player should do, and why it's a good idea to do it. At
every turn, it married the simulation to the real-world thing that was
being simulated.
PHANTOM LEADER is just about turning over cards and rolling dice; it's
about as close to real jet combat as playing cribbage using cards with a
photo of Duke Cunningham wearning a flight jacket on them.
If this is what "Modern Day Wargaming" is about, then I want no part of
it. If this is the best I can get, then I hereby quit the hobby
forever.
Giftzwerg
Apr 16, 2013, 9:46:33 AM4/16/13
to
In article <9afd2e22-c3b8-4df3-8e61-
a3b740...@s9g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com
says...
> > Come now. ï¿œWhy the hell should I need to go to some online jackoff to
a3b740...@s9g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com
says...
> > Come now. ï¿œWhy the hell should I need to go to some online jackoff to
> > get a tutorial for a game I just *bought*?
>
> Because smart developers pour their effort there where they get the
> biggest ROI for their time.
>
> Producing elaborate tutorials for this game isn't a smart move because
> most of the people who buy it will have played the cardboard version
> and the few who haven't can get up to speed with what's available on
> the 'net - the manual, video tutorials, etc.
Hmm. Then why have a help button at all?
>
> Because smart developers pour their effort there where they get the
> biggest ROI for their time.
>
> Producing elaborate tutorials for this game isn't a smart move because
> most of the people who buy it will have played the cardboard version
> and the few who haven't can get up to speed with what's available on
> the 'net - the manual, video tutorials, etc.
Holdit
Apr 16, 2013, 8:05:07 PM4/16/13
to
In article <MPG.2bd6240ec...@news-east.giganews.com>,
giftzw...@hotmail.com says...
whole war thing, although I had a half-hearted go at explaining it when
asked. Half-hearted because I think they can get by without that
knowledge of the world's dark side for a while longer. And because it
can lead you into a Q&A quagmire, as it did when the subject of rain
came up during a car trip...
"What makes the rain?"
"Well, water gets warmed up by the sun, and some of it goes up in the
sky and it makes clouds. After a while the clouds get too heavy and they
fall down in raindrops. Some day we'll take you on a plane and you can
actually look down at the clouds instead of looking up at them."
"Can I touch them?"
"No, they're outside the plane."
"What if I put my arm out the window?"
"You can't."
"Why?"
"You can't open the windows on a plane."
"Why? Are they locked?"
"No, they don't open at all."
"Why?"
(At this point I realised I'd just talked my way into having to explain
explosive decompression to a four-year-old...)
(Deep breath) "Because if you opened it there would be a big huge wind
inside the plane that would blow everyone outside and maybe make the
plane crash too."
"Oh...(pause)...are we nearly there yet?"
(Phew)
Imagine the above scenario, but about war instead - you'd be there all
day trying to explain it.
Incidentally, when I related this tale to my brother, who also has a
young daughter, his response was, "You're crazy...you should have just
told her that God makes it rain. That's what I do." But I can't bring
myself to use a God explanation when there's a scientific one, even with
a child.
Holdit
--
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others
of whom I made the most careful and particular enquiry."
- Thucydides (Peloponnesian War)
"I've just jazzed mine up a little."
- Spike Milligan (World War 2)
giftzw...@hotmail.com says...
>
> In article <MPG.2bd5facf9...@news-europe.giganews.com>,
> holdit...@indigoTHE.ieCAPS says...
>
> > The point I'm making here is that if designers can achieve this level of
> > intuitive usability for computer-inexperienced primary school kids, how
> > hard can it be to produce some thing intuitive for generally computer-
> > savvy adults?
> >
> > And, looking at it from another angle...if Facebook can get away with
> > that dreadful interface...how hard can it really be? ;-)
>
> I got an iTunes giftcard, and - silly me - bought PHANTOM LEADER for the
> iPad. I defy either of your children to puzzle out how the fuck to play
> this game
No bet. Quite apart from the problems you describe, they don't get the
> In article <MPG.2bd5facf9...@news-europe.giganews.com>,
> holdit...@indigoTHE.ieCAPS says...
>
> > The point I'm making here is that if designers can achieve this level of
> > intuitive usability for computer-inexperienced primary school kids, how
> > hard can it be to produce some thing intuitive for generally computer-
> > savvy adults?
> >
> > And, looking at it from another angle...if Facebook can get away with
> > that dreadful interface...how hard can it really be? ;-)
>
> I got an iTunes giftcard, and - silly me - bought PHANTOM LEADER for the
> iPad. I defy either of your children to puzzle out how the fuck to play
> this game
whole war thing, although I had a half-hearted go at explaining it when
asked. Half-hearted because I think they can get by without that
knowledge of the world's dark side for a while longer. And because it
can lead you into a Q&A quagmire, as it did when the subject of rain
came up during a car trip...
"What makes the rain?"
"Well, water gets warmed up by the sun, and some of it goes up in the
sky and it makes clouds. After a while the clouds get too heavy and they
fall down in raindrops. Some day we'll take you on a plane and you can
actually look down at the clouds instead of looking up at them."
"Can I touch them?"
"No, they're outside the plane."
"What if I put my arm out the window?"
"You can't."
"Why?"
"You can't open the windows on a plane."
"Why? Are they locked?"
"No, they don't open at all."
"Why?"
(At this point I realised I'd just talked my way into having to explain
explosive decompression to a four-year-old...)
(Deep breath) "Because if you opened it there would be a big huge wind
inside the plane that would blow everyone outside and maybe make the
plane crash too."
"Oh...(pause)...are we nearly there yet?"
(Phew)
Imagine the above scenario, but about war instead - you'd be there all
day trying to explain it.
Incidentally, when I related this tale to my brother, who also has a
young daughter, his response was, "You're crazy...you should have just
told her that God makes it rain. That's what I do." But I can't bring
myself to use a God explanation when there's a scientific one, even with
a child.
Holdit
--
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others
of whom I made the most careful and particular enquiry."
- Thucydides (Peloponnesian War)
"I've just jazzed mine up a little."
- Spike Milligan (World War 2)
CaligulasHorse
Apr 16, 2013, 10:57:23 PM4/16/13
to
On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 9:35:07 AM UTC+9:30, Holdit wrote:
>
>
> No bet. Quite apart from the problems you describe, they don't get the
>
> whole war thing, although I had a half-hearted go at explaining it when
>
> asked. Half-hearted because I think they can get by without that
>
> knowledge of the world's dark side for a while longer. And because it
>
> can lead you into a Q&A quagmire, as it did when the subject of rain
>
> came up during a car trip...
>
I had a hard time recently giving a convincing explanation of why dolphins aren't fish.
>
>
> No bet. Quite apart from the problems you describe, they don't get the
>
> whole war thing, although I had a half-hearted go at explaining it when
>
> asked. Half-hearted because I think they can get by without that
>
> knowledge of the world's dark side for a while longer. And because it
>
> can lead you into a Q&A quagmire, as it did when the subject of rain
>
> came up during a car trip...
>
Partly because I'm not sure I really believe it. They have fins, they live in the ocean. Why is it that less important than their reproductive arrangements (which aren't really any of my business anyway)?
Carl Alex Friis Nielsen
Apr 17, 2013, 3:04:42 AM4/17/13
to
On 17-04-2013 04:57, CaligulasHorse wrote:
uring a car trip...
>>
>
> I had a hard time recently giving a convincing explanation of why dolphins aren't fish.
>
> Partly because I'm not sure I really believe it. They have fins, they live in the ocean. Why is it that less important than their reproductive arrangements (which aren't really any of my business anyway)?
>
They also breathe air and will die if kept under water.
uring a car trip...
>>
>
> I had a hard time recently giving a convincing explanation of why dolphins aren't fish.
>
> Partly because I'm not sure I really believe it. They have fins, they live in the ocean. Why is it that less important than their reproductive arrangements (which aren't really any of my business anyway)?
>
Giftzwerg
Apr 17, 2013, 6:46:19 AM4/17/13
to
In article <MPG.2bd7f7905...@news-europe.giganews.com>,
holdit...@indigoTHE.ieCAPS says...
> > I got an iTunes giftcard, and - silly me - bought PHANTOM LEADER for the
> > iPad. I defy either of your children to puzzle out how the fuck to play
> > this game
>
> No bet. Quite apart from the problems you describe, they don't get the
> whole war thing, although I had a half-hearted go at explaining it when
> asked. Half-hearted because I think they can get by without that
> knowledge of the world's dark side for a while longer. And because it
> can lead you into a Q&A quagmire, as it did when the subject of rain
> came up during a car trip...
I'm not sure they need the "war thing" for PHANTOM LEADER, though.
This is one of those wargames that is so utterly divorced - by sheer
gameyness - from the thing ostensibly being simulated that you could
wash away all the *trappings* of jet combat in Vietnam and use the
entire thing from soup to nuts as a game of something completely
different.
You could call it HIGH SCHOOL, replacing the pilots and airplanes with
"students" and "social roles." You could replace the target cards with
social venues like "pizza joint" or "ski slope." The weapons would be
replaced with "wallets" and "weed." The bandits and AA site would be
"nagging parents" and "buzzkill teachers."
There you have it. You don't have to change anything else. For
children, of course, it would be nice to have good, suitable graphics on
the game board and counters. Instead of the F-4s, Skyhawks, MiGs and
the like, you'd have "cheerleader," "goth girl," and "basketball team
captain." But this is just a matter of hiring an artist with a good
sense of humor and caricature.
Done!
holdit...@indigoTHE.ieCAPS says...
> > I got an iTunes giftcard, and - silly me - bought PHANTOM LEADER for the
> > iPad. I defy either of your children to puzzle out how the fuck to play
> > this game
>
> No bet. Quite apart from the problems you describe, they don't get the
> whole war thing, although I had a half-hearted go at explaining it when
> asked. Half-hearted because I think they can get by without that
> knowledge of the world's dark side for a while longer. And because it
> can lead you into a Q&A quagmire, as it did when the subject of rain
> came up during a car trip...
This is one of those wargames that is so utterly divorced - by sheer
gameyness - from the thing ostensibly being simulated that you could
wash away all the *trappings* of jet combat in Vietnam and use the
entire thing from soup to nuts as a game of something completely
different.
You could call it HIGH SCHOOL, replacing the pilots and airplanes with
"students" and "social roles." You could replace the target cards with
social venues like "pizza joint" or "ski slope." The weapons would be
replaced with "wallets" and "weed." The bandits and AA site would be
"nagging parents" and "buzzkill teachers."
There you have it. You don't have to change anything else. For
children, of course, it would be nice to have good, suitable graphics on
the game board and counters. Instead of the F-4s, Skyhawks, MiGs and
the like, you'd have "cheerleader," "goth girl," and "basketball team
captain." But this is just a matter of hiring an artist with a good
sense of humor and caricature.
Done!
Giftzwerg
Apr 17, 2013, 6:48:19 AM4/17/13
to
In article <516e498c$0$291$edfa...@dtext01.news.tele.dk>, ca...@mail.dk
says...
> > I had a hard time recently giving a convincing explanation of why dolphins aren't fish.
> >
> > Partly because I'm not sure I really believe it. They have fins, they live in the ocean. Why is it that less important than their reproductive arrangements (which aren't really any of my business anyway)?
> >
>
> They also breathe air and will die if kept under water.
Is humorless pedantry a sort of Danish thing?
says...
> > I had a hard time recently giving a convincing explanation of why dolphins aren't fish.
> >
> > Partly because I'm not sure I really believe it. They have fins, they live in the ocean. Why is it that less important than their reproductive arrangements (which aren't really any of my business anyway)?
> >
>
> They also breathe air and will die if kept under water.
Giftzwerg
Apr 17, 2013, 6:56:27 AM4/17/13
to
In article <MPG.2bd847835...@news-east.giganews.com>,
giftzw...@hotmail.com says...
> You could call it HIGH SCHOOL, replacing the pilots and airplanes with
> "students" and "social roles." You could replace the target cards with
> social venues like "pizza joint" or "ski slope." The weapons would be
> replaced with "wallets" and "weed." The bandits and AA site would be
> "nagging parents" and "buzzkill teachers."
>
> There you have it. You don't have to change anything else. For
> children, of course, it would be nice to have good, suitable graphics on
> the game board and counters. Instead of the F-4s, Skyhawks, MiGs and
> the like, you'd have "cheerleader," "goth girl," and "basketball team
> captain." But this is just a matter of hiring an artist with a good
> sense of humor and caricature.
>
> Done!
Oh, I forgot the most important part! The "Event Cards."
You'd need a good mix of, but they'd have the same effect on gameplay.
"Woke up with giant zit": -2 Social Roll at Venue
"Lost 12 pounds!": +4 Likability
"Pulled over by cops, weed found": Weed counters discard/mission abort
And so on.
Now that I think about it, some of the same buttons could stay in the
game. For instance, if approached by a fat girl at the dance, you could
"Evade" or "Skip" and hope she didn't manage to glom onto you.
giftzw...@hotmail.com says...
> You could call it HIGH SCHOOL, replacing the pilots and airplanes with
> "students" and "social roles." You could replace the target cards with
> social venues like "pizza joint" or "ski slope." The weapons would be
> replaced with "wallets" and "weed." The bandits and AA site would be
> "nagging parents" and "buzzkill teachers."
>
> There you have it. You don't have to change anything else. For
> children, of course, it would be nice to have good, suitable graphics on
> the game board and counters. Instead of the F-4s, Skyhawks, MiGs and
> the like, you'd have "cheerleader," "goth girl," and "basketball team
> captain." But this is just a matter of hiring an artist with a good
> sense of humor and caricature.
>
> Done!
You'd need a good mix of, but they'd have the same effect on gameplay.
"Woke up with giant zit": -2 Social Roll at Venue
"Lost 12 pounds!": +4 Likability
"Pulled over by cops, weed found": Weed counters discard/mission abort
And so on.
Now that I think about it, some of the same buttons could stay in the
game. For instance, if approached by a fat girl at the dance, you could
"Evade" or "Skip" and hope she didn't manage to glom onto you.
Holdit
Apr 17, 2013, 7:20:04 AM4/17/13
to
In article <MPG.2bd849ebf...@news-east.giganews.com>,
giftzw...@hotmail.com says...
Dilbert desk calendar.
giftzw...@hotmail.com says...
> Oh, I forgot the most important part! The "Event Cards."
>
> You'd need a good mix of, but they'd have the same effect on gameplay.
>
> "Woke up with giant zit": -2 Social Roll at Venue
> "Lost 12 pounds!": +4 Likability
> "Pulled over by cops, weed found": Weed counters discard/mission abort
>
> And so on.
>
> Now that I think about it, some of the same buttons could stay in the
> game. For instance, if approached by a fat girl at the dance, you could
> "Evade" or "Skip" and hope she didn't manage to glom onto you.
>
Thank you for my best laugh of the morning since today's strip on my
>
> You'd need a good mix of, but they'd have the same effect on gameplay.
>
> "Woke up with giant zit": -2 Social Roll at Venue
> "Lost 12 pounds!": +4 Likability
> "Pulled over by cops, weed found": Weed counters discard/mission abort
>
> And so on.
>
> Now that I think about it, some of the same buttons could stay in the
> game. For instance, if approached by a fat girl at the dance, you could
> "Evade" or "Skip" and hope she didn't manage to glom onto you.
>
Dilbert desk calendar.
Holdit
Apr 17, 2013, 7:20:15 AM4/17/13
to
also sounds like a plausible board-game suggestion (eh, Eddy?).
Something like "Monopoly" but called..."Popularity". :-)
Mind you, my two are still young enough to be below the horizon of such
a game. Thankfully. For now...
Miowarra Tomokatu (aka Tomo)
Apr 17, 2013, 3:01:02 PM4/17/13
to
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:56:27 -0400, Giftzwerg <giftzw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <MPG.2bd847835...@news-east.giganews.com>,
>giftzw...@hotmail.com says...
>
>> You could call it HIGH SCHOOL, replacing the pilots and airplanes with
>> "students" and "social roles." You could replace the target cards with
>> social venues like "pizza joint" or "ski slope." The weapons would be
>> replaced with "wallets" and "weed." The bandits and AA site would be
>> "nagging parents" and "buzzkill teachers."
>>
>> There you have it. You don't have to change anything else. For
>> children, of course, it would be nice to have good, suitable graphics on
>> the game board and counters. Instead of the F-4s, Skyhawks, MiGs and
>> the like, you'd have "cheerleader," "goth girl," and "basketball team
>> captain." But this is just a matter of hiring an artist with a good
>> sense of humor and caricature.
>>
>> Done!
>
>Oh, I forgot the most important part! The "Event Cards."
>
>You'd need a good mix of, but they'd have the same effect on gameplay.
>
>"Woke up with giant zit": -2 Social Roll at Venue
>"Lost 12 pounds!": +4 Likability
>"Pulled over by cops, weed found": Weed counters discard/mission abort
>
>And so on.
>
>Now that I think about it, some of the same buttons could stay in the
>game. For instance, if approached by a fat girl at the dance, you could
>"Evade" or "Skip" and hope she didn't manage to glom onto you.
No, no, no!
>In article <MPG.2bd847835...@news-east.giganews.com>,
>giftzw...@hotmail.com says...
>
>> You could call it HIGH SCHOOL, replacing the pilots and airplanes with
>> "students" and "social roles." You could replace the target cards with
>> social venues like "pizza joint" or "ski slope." The weapons would be
>> replaced with "wallets" and "weed." The bandits and AA site would be
>> "nagging parents" and "buzzkill teachers."
>>
>> There you have it. You don't have to change anything else. For
>> children, of course, it would be nice to have good, suitable graphics on
>> the game board and counters. Instead of the F-4s, Skyhawks, MiGs and
>> the like, you'd have "cheerleader," "goth girl," and "basketball team
>> captain." But this is just a matter of hiring an artist with a good
>> sense of humor and caricature.
>>
>> Done!
>
>Oh, I forgot the most important part! The "Event Cards."
>
>You'd need a good mix of, but they'd have the same effect on gameplay.
>
>"Woke up with giant zit": -2 Social Roll at Venue
>"Lost 12 pounds!": +4 Likability
>"Pulled over by cops, weed found": Weed counters discard/mission abort
>
>And so on.
>
>Now that I think about it, some of the same buttons could stay in the
>game. For instance, if approached by a fat girl at the dance, you could
>"Evade" or "Skip" and hope she didn't manage to glom onto you.
Fat girls are fun!!
They're also probably the best chance for a zit-ridden adolescent boy to get his end in, leading to another whole
sequence of event possibilities "Itchy Rash", "Pee Test", "Stalking Chick" (Social Credibility -3.)
But my point stands, fat girls are fun; they squish! (But they're expensive to feed and tend to get irritable if not fed
regularly (20 min intervals))
Gifty, you have no appreciation of the wide variety of life's experiences.
.
.
Statistically, 6 out of 7 dwarves are not happy.
Giftzwerg
Apr 17, 2013, 9:23:50 PM4/17/13
to
[This followup was posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical and a
copy was sent to the cited author.]
In article <arrtm8hvae5384d2l...@4ax.com>,
n...@thistime.net says...
> >"Woke up with giant zit": -2 Social Roll at Venue
> >"Lost 12 pounds!": +4 Likability
> >"Pulled over by cops, weed found": Weed counters discard/mission abort
> >
> >And so on.
> >
> >Now that I think about it, some of the same buttons could stay in the
> >game. For instance, if approached by a fat girl at the dance, you could
> >"Evade" or "Skip" and hope she didn't manage to glom onto you.
> No, no, no!
>
> Fat girls are fun!!
>
> They're also probably the best chance for a zit-ridden adolescent boy to get his end in, leading to another whole
> sequence of event possibilities "Itchy Rash", "Pee Test", "Stalking Chick" (Social Credibility -3.)
No, I totally agree. After all, PHANT^h^h^h^h^h HIGH SCHOOL is
essentially a game about achieving objectives in the face of opposition,
and the difficulty of the objective is a *huge* factor.
I mean, if you pick "Ice Princess Head Cheerleader" from the target card
pile, you've got a longer furrow to plow than if the selection is the
target card named "Peanut Butter*"
And if you're sending in a pilo^h^h^h^h teenager whose card is "Chess
Club Vice President," and the weapons he's bringing to the table are,
"Star Wars Figure Collection," and "Mom Teaches at Your School," and
"Favorite Fictional Character is 'Napoleon Dynamite'," then you're
really hurting.
Factor in opposition event cards like, "Using Dad's Buick," or
"Orthodontist Fits Retainer on Prom Day," or "Aunt Hilda Named as
Chaperon," then you've got a helluva game on your hand ... but enormous
VP credits available.
> Gifty, you have no appreciation of the wide variety of life's experiences.
I think I do. One day in HIGH SCHOOL, I drew the event card that went:
"Pretty-but-bookish, somewhat dorky, frizzy haired girlfriend who always
dresses in baggy clothes because she's terminally shy steps out of
poolhouse at a party in two-piece swimsuit ... and ... Conversation.
Grinds. To. Stop."
I got +6 "Awesome" that day.
* Easy to spread.
copy was sent to the cited author.]
In article <arrtm8hvae5384d2l...@4ax.com>,
n...@thistime.net says...
> >"Woke up with giant zit": -2 Social Roll at Venue
> >"Lost 12 pounds!": +4 Likability
> >"Pulled over by cops, weed found": Weed counters discard/mission abort
> >
> >And so on.
> >
> >Now that I think about it, some of the same buttons could stay in the
> >game. For instance, if approached by a fat girl at the dance, you could
> >"Evade" or "Skip" and hope she didn't manage to glom onto you.
> No, no, no!
>
> Fat girls are fun!!
>
> They're also probably the best chance for a zit-ridden adolescent boy to get his end in, leading to another whole
> sequence of event possibilities "Itchy Rash", "Pee Test", "Stalking Chick" (Social Credibility -3.)
essentially a game about achieving objectives in the face of opposition,
and the difficulty of the objective is a *huge* factor.
I mean, if you pick "Ice Princess Head Cheerleader" from the target card
pile, you've got a longer furrow to plow than if the selection is the
target card named "Peanut Butter*"
And if you're sending in a pilo^h^h^h^h teenager whose card is "Chess
Club Vice President," and the weapons he's bringing to the table are,
"Star Wars Figure Collection," and "Mom Teaches at Your School," and
"Favorite Fictional Character is 'Napoleon Dynamite'," then you're
really hurting.
Factor in opposition event cards like, "Using Dad's Buick," or
"Orthodontist Fits Retainer on Prom Day," or "Aunt Hilda Named as
Chaperon," then you've got a helluva game on your hand ... but enormous
VP credits available.
> Gifty, you have no appreciation of the wide variety of life's experiences.
"Pretty-but-bookish, somewhat dorky, frizzy haired girlfriend who always
dresses in baggy clothes because she's terminally shy steps out of
poolhouse at a party in two-piece swimsuit ... and ... Conversation.
Grinds. To. Stop."
I got +6 "Awesome" that day.
* Easy to spread.
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 18, 2013, 3:40:57 AM4/18/13
to
On 16 apr, 15:44, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> PHANTOM LEADER is just about turning over cards and rolling dice; it's
> about as close to real jet combat as playing cribbage using cards with a
> photo of Duke Cunningham wearning a flight jacket on them.
You made me so curious about the game that I actually added it to to
>
> PHANTOM LEADER is just about turning over cards and rolling dice; it's
> about as close to real jet combat as playing cribbage using cards with a
> photo of Duke Cunningham wearning a flight jacket on them.
my "want" list for this month's Benelux boardgame math trade :)
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 18, 2013, 4:38:01 AM4/18/13
to
On 17 apr, 13:20, Holdit <holditREM...@indigoTHE.ieCAPS> wrote:
>
> Very good! Translate that into an app and I bet you'd have a winner. It
> also sounds like a plausible board-game suggestion (eh, Eddy?).
> Something like "Monopoly" but called..."Popularity". :-)
I've seen worse designs getting Kickstarted :)
>
> Very good! Translate that into an app and I bet you'd have a winner. It
> also sounds like a plausible board-game suggestion (eh, Eddy?).
> Something like "Monopoly" but called..."Popularity". :-)
I'm organizing a prototype testing day at my place on Saturday 27th,
bring it over and let the guys have a go at it.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 18, 2013, 4:42:46 AM4/18/13
to
On 16 apr, 15:46, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <9afd2e22-c3b8-4df3-8e61-
> a3b740e69...@s9g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, eddyster...@hotmail.com
> says...
>
> > > Come now. Why the hell should I need to go to some online jackoff to
http://images.dvg.com/www.dvg.com/phantomrules.pdf
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
> In article <9afd2e22-c3b8-4df3-8e61-
> a3b740e69...@s9g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, eddyster...@hotmail.com
> says...
>
> > > Come now. Why the hell should I need to go to some online jackoff to
> > > get a tutorial for a game I just *bought*?
>
> > Because smart developers pour their effort there where they get the
> > biggest ROI for their time.
>
> > Producing elaborate tutorials for this game isn't a smart move because
> > most of the people who buy it will have played the cardboard version
> > and the few who haven't can get up to speed with what's available on
> > the 'net - the manual, video tutorials, etc.
>
> Hmm. Then why have a help button at all?
I dunno - but I do know the manual is available here :
>
> > Because smart developers pour their effort there where they get the
> > biggest ROI for their time.
>
> > Producing elaborate tutorials for this game isn't a smart move because
> > most of the people who buy it will have played the cardboard version
> > and the few who haven't can get up to speed with what's available on
> > the 'net - the manual, video tutorials, etc.
>
> Hmm. Then why have a help button at all?
http://images.dvg.com/www.dvg.com/phantomrules.pdf
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 18, 2013, 4:45:03 AM4/18/13
to
On 17 apr, 04:57, CaligulasHorse <juris...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 9:35:07 AM UTC+9:30, Holdit wrote:
>
> > No bet. Quite apart from the problems you describe, they don't get the
>
> > whole war thing, although I had a half-hearted go at explaining it when
>
> > asked. Half-hearted because I think they can get by without that
>
> > knowledge of the world's dark side for a while longer. And because it
>
> > can lead you into a Q&A quagmire, as it did when the subject of rain
>
> > came up during a car trip...
>
> I had a hard time recently giving a convincing explanation of why dolphins aren't fish.
Fish don't come if you call them :)
> On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 9:35:07 AM UTC+9:30, Holdit wrote:
>
> > No bet. Quite apart from the problems you describe, they don't get the
>
> > whole war thing, although I had a half-hearted go at explaining it when
>
> > asked. Half-hearted because I think they can get by without that
>
> > knowledge of the world's dark side for a while longer. And because it
>
> > can lead you into a Q&A quagmire, as it did when the subject of rain
>
> > came up during a car trip...
>
> I had a hard time recently giving a convincing explanation of why dolphins aren't fish.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 18, 2013, 8:30:37 AM4/18/13
to
On 18 apr, 10:38, "eddyster...@hotmail.com" <eddyster...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/26522/high-school-drama
"Play as a student in a high school drama. Hook up with other
students, spread vicious lies and rumors about your rivals and pretend
to bond with your fake friends. Earn yearbook signatures by going to
special events like homecoming and sci-fi movie openings or by earning
student standouts like cutest couple and most artistic. Each player
controls one main student but quickly forms a growing clique by
hooking up with other students and organizations. Everyone starts as
freshmen, but only the player who has the most yearbook signatures at
the end of graduation wins!"
and here's the kicker :)
"Nominated as an ORIGINS AWARDS finalist for Best Non-Collectible Card
Game of 2006."
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
wrote:
> On 17 apr, 13:20, Holdit <holditREM...@indigoTHE.ieCAPS> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Very good! Translate that into an app and I bet you'd have a winner. It
> > also sounds like a plausible board-game suggestion (eh, Eddy?).
> > Something like "Monopoly" but called..."Popularity". :-)
>
> I've seen worse designs getting Kickstarted :)
Somebody alerted me to the the fact this game already exists
>
>
>
> > Very good! Translate that into an app and I bet you'd have a winner. It
> > also sounds like a plausible board-game suggestion (eh, Eddy?).
> > Something like "Monopoly" but called..."Popularity". :-)
>
> I've seen worse designs getting Kickstarted :)
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/26522/high-school-drama
"Play as a student in a high school drama. Hook up with other
students, spread vicious lies and rumors about your rivals and pretend
to bond with your fake friends. Earn yearbook signatures by going to
special events like homecoming and sci-fi movie openings or by earning
student standouts like cutest couple and most artistic. Each player
controls one main student but quickly forms a growing clique by
hooking up with other students and organizations. Everyone starts as
freshmen, but only the player who has the most yearbook signatures at
the end of graduation wins!"
and here's the kicker :)
"Nominated as an ORIGINS AWARDS finalist for Best Non-Collectible Card
Game of 2006."
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Giftzwerg
Apr 18, 2013, 8:35:33 AM4/18/13
to
In article <113c5d39-314d-4fa2-b4de-07642c3b7592
@y12g2000vbh.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
> > PHANTOM LEADER is just about turning over cards and rolling dice; it's
> > about as close to real jet combat as playing cribbage using cards with a
> > photo of Duke Cunningham wearning a flight jacket on them.
>
> You made me so curious about the game that I actually added it to to
> my "want" list for this month's Benelux boardgame math trade :)
I've seen weirder decisions. Mrs. G., for example, slathers perfectly
good food with thermonuclear hot sauce, even though it sometimes doubles
her over in pain later on.
The problems with PHANTOM LEADER boil down to two central issues:
First, the player is taken to far too many screens that accomplish
precisely nothing. Why does the "Fast Pilots Attack" screen appear at
all when the player has no fast pilots? Why be offered a screen that
allows SEAD weapons to be used, when the player has no SEAD weapons?
Why be shown the "Place Sites" screen when the sites are all placed - by
the opposition - and any decisions where the composition of target
defenses might be germane have already been made?! This leads to screen
after screen where the player is just going "skip->skip->Evade->skip->
skip."
The suspicion is, of course, that these phases existed in the boardgame,
and there was no real thought to whether they were necessary in the
computer / iPad version. Good UI design is really, after all, partly a
exercise in removing each and every unnecessary element until one
arrives at the bare information necessary to move the game along.
I mean, this isn't even *chrome*, it's just a slavish adherence to the
boardgame conventions - "we need a phase here because the boardgame has
a phase here." Bleagh.
The second problem is that this game reminds me so poignantly of every
bad SPI / AH game that flooded the shelves in the 1970s-1980s period;
there's simply no real connection between the game and what it
ostensibly simulates.
Back then, I would be playing a "Tannenberg" game with a pile of "5-5-
3" infantry and "3-1-8" cavalry and '9-0-0" artillery ... and thinking
that these counters could be "cavemen," "wargs," and "magicians" - *and
the game would change not at all*.
That's what is happening here. There's no sense of "jet combat in
Vietnam," just "adjacent counters," "same hex counters," "target
cards," and the ultimate cop-out, "event cards." This last is the worst
thing, not solely because some of the events are mutually exclusive. In
my very first game, I hit a "SAM site" on the way in ... but their
phones must have been out - in the fanciest Russian-supplied air defense
system in the world - because they failed to inform anyone else and I
also drew a "Total Surprise" card.
Bad. In every sense of the word.
Also. $14.99? That's kinda pricey in a world where BATTLE ACADEMY
gives me ten times the gameplay at the same price - or COMBAT MISSION:
TOUCH gives me ten times the gameplay at one-third the price.
@y12g2000vbh.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
> > PHANTOM LEADER is just about turning over cards and rolling dice; it's
> > about as close to real jet combat as playing cribbage using cards with a
> > photo of Duke Cunningham wearning a flight jacket on them.
>
> You made me so curious about the game that I actually added it to to
> my "want" list for this month's Benelux boardgame math trade :)
good food with thermonuclear hot sauce, even though it sometimes doubles
her over in pain later on.
The problems with PHANTOM LEADER boil down to two central issues:
First, the player is taken to far too many screens that accomplish
precisely nothing. Why does the "Fast Pilots Attack" screen appear at
all when the player has no fast pilots? Why be offered a screen that
allows SEAD weapons to be used, when the player has no SEAD weapons?
Why be shown the "Place Sites" screen when the sites are all placed - by
the opposition - and any decisions where the composition of target
defenses might be germane have already been made?! This leads to screen
after screen where the player is just going "skip->skip->Evade->skip->
skip."
The suspicion is, of course, that these phases existed in the boardgame,
and there was no real thought to whether they were necessary in the
computer / iPad version. Good UI design is really, after all, partly a
exercise in removing each and every unnecessary element until one
arrives at the bare information necessary to move the game along.
I mean, this isn't even *chrome*, it's just a slavish adherence to the
boardgame conventions - "we need a phase here because the boardgame has
a phase here." Bleagh.
The second problem is that this game reminds me so poignantly of every
bad SPI / AH game that flooded the shelves in the 1970s-1980s period;
there's simply no real connection between the game and what it
ostensibly simulates.
Back then, I would be playing a "Tannenberg" game with a pile of "5-5-
3" infantry and "3-1-8" cavalry and '9-0-0" artillery ... and thinking
that these counters could be "cavemen," "wargs," and "magicians" - *and
the game would change not at all*.
That's what is happening here. There's no sense of "jet combat in
Vietnam," just "adjacent counters," "same hex counters," "target
cards," and the ultimate cop-out, "event cards." This last is the worst
thing, not solely because some of the events are mutually exclusive. In
my very first game, I hit a "SAM site" on the way in ... but their
phones must have been out - in the fanciest Russian-supplied air defense
system in the world - because they failed to inform anyone else and I
also drew a "Total Surprise" card.
Bad. In every sense of the word.
Also. $14.99? That's kinda pricey in a world where BATTLE ACADEMY
gives me ten times the gameplay at the same price - or COMBAT MISSION:
TOUCH gives me ten times the gameplay at one-third the price.
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 18, 2013, 8:54:42 AM4/18/13
to
On 18 apr, 14:35, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> The suspicion is, of course, that these phases existed in the boardgame,
> and there was no real thought to whether they were necessary in the
> computer / iPad version. Good UI design is really, after all, partly a
> exercise in removing each and every unnecessary element until one
> arrives at the bare information necessary to move the game along.
Totally agree - so in essence it's a bad port - says nothing about the
>
> The suspicion is, of course, that these phases existed in the boardgame,
> and there was no real thought to whether they were necessary in the
> computer / iPad version. Good UI design is really, after all, partly a
> exercise in removing each and every unnecessary element until one
> arrives at the bare information necessary to move the game along.
boardgame though.
> The second problem is that this game reminds me so poignantly of every
> bad SPI / AH game that flooded the shelves in the 1970s-1980s period;
> there's simply no real connection between the game and what it
> ostensibly simulates.
> That's what is happening here. There's no sense of "jet combat in
> Vietnam,"
Jet combat ? Isn't it more a game of small bombing runs/missions on a
> Vietnam,"
variety of targets ?
I'm skimming the manual right now - looks alright - I think I could
have some fun with it.
> Bad. In every sense of the word.
at BGG with 314 gamers who've rated it. Can't be too bad.
> Also. $14.99? That's kinda pricey in a world where BATTLE ACADEMY
> gives me ten times the gameplay at the same price - or COMBAT MISSION:
> TOUCH gives me ten times the gameplay at one-third the price.
month's trade. If I don't like it, it goes on the trade pile again. I
love trades as it makes it possible to test a game for next to
nothing.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Giftzwerg
Apr 18, 2013, 10:49:31 AM4/18/13
to
In article <55ed0f92-91ad-4218-adb3-
1b2c3b...@s9g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com
says...
> > The suspicion is, of course, that these phases existed in the boardgame,
> > and there was no real thought to whether they were necessary in the
> > computer / iPad version. Good UI design is really, after all, partly a
> > exercise in removing each and every unnecessary element until one
> > arrives at the bare information necessary to move the game along.
>
> Totally agree - so in essence it's a bad port - says nothing about the
> boardgame though.
Quite true. And it doesn't say anything about the boardgame - but it
says volumes about the wisdom of straight-porting boardgames to computer
games.
> > The second problem is that this game reminds me so poignantly of every
> > bad SPI / AH game that flooded the shelves in the 1970s-1980s period;
> > there's simply no real connection between the game and what it
> > ostensibly simulates.
>
> > That's what is happening here. There's no sense of "jet combat in
> > Vietnam,"
>
> Jet combat ? Isn't it more a game of small bombing runs/missions on a
> variety of targets ?
Bombing things that shoot back isn't combat?
Well, I mean, in *this* case it isn't combat, because it's not
simulating combat, it's simulating the turning of good or bad cards,
which influence the rolling of dice, which can ultimately lead to a
positive or negative position on the "Win Track."
> I'm skimming the manual right now - looks alright - I think I could
> have some fun with it.
>
> > Bad. In every sense of the word.
>
> The boardgame currently holds a #79 rank in the wargame category over
> at BGG with 314 gamers who've rated it. Can't be too bad.
<shrug>
"Dancing with the Stars" is always in the top ten TV shows in the USA,
but I'm not sure it couldn't be "too bad." I'd call it "awful."
1b2c3b...@s9g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com
says...
> > The suspicion is, of course, that these phases existed in the boardgame,
> > and there was no real thought to whether they were necessary in the
> > computer / iPad version. Good UI design is really, after all, partly a
> > exercise in removing each and every unnecessary element until one
> > arrives at the bare information necessary to move the game along.
>
> Totally agree - so in essence it's a bad port - says nothing about the
> boardgame though.
says volumes about the wisdom of straight-porting boardgames to computer
games.
> > The second problem is that this game reminds me so poignantly of every
> > bad SPI / AH game that flooded the shelves in the 1970s-1980s period;
> > there's simply no real connection between the game and what it
> > ostensibly simulates.
>
> > That's what is happening here. There's no sense of "jet combat in
> > Vietnam,"
>
> Jet combat ? Isn't it more a game of small bombing runs/missions on a
> variety of targets ?
Well, I mean, in *this* case it isn't combat, because it's not
simulating combat, it's simulating the turning of good or bad cards,
which influence the rolling of dice, which can ultimately lead to a
positive or negative position on the "Win Track."
> I'm skimming the manual right now - looks alright - I think I could
> have some fun with it.
>
> > Bad. In every sense of the word.
>
> The boardgame currently holds a #79 rank in the wargame category over
> at BGG with 314 gamers who've rated it. Can't be too bad.
"Dancing with the Stars" is always in the top ten TV shows in the USA,
but I'm not sure it couldn't be "too bad." I'd call it "awful."
Message has been deleted
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 19, 2013, 2:24:32 AM4/19/13
to
On 18 apr, 16:49, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <55ed0f92-91ad-4218-adb3-
> 1b2c3b29a...@s9g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, eddyster...@hotmail.com
> > > Bad. In every sense of the word.
>
> > The boardgame currently holds a #79 rank in the wargame category over
> > at BGG with 314 gamers who've rated it. Can't be too bad.
>
> <shrug>
>
> "Dancing with the Stars" is always in the top ten TV shows in the USA,
> but I'm not sure it couldn't be "too bad." I'd call it "awful."
The difference being that here the voting was not done by those who
think Candyland and Monopoly are great games, it was done by
wargamers.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
> In article <55ed0f92-91ad-4218-adb3-
> 1b2c3b29a...@s9g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, eddyster...@hotmail.com
> says...
>
> > > The suspicion is, of course, that these phases existed in the boardgame,
> > > and there was no real thought to whether they were necessary in the
> > > computer / iPad version. Good UI design is really, after all, partly a
> > > exercise in removing each and every unnecessary element until one
> > > arrives at the bare information necessary to move the game along.
>
> > Totally agree - so in essence it's a bad port - says nothing about the
> > boardgame though.
>
> Quite true. And it doesn't say anything about the boardgame - but it
> says volumes about the wisdom of straight-porting boardgames to computer
> games.
Again, does anyone advocate mindless straight ports ?
>
> > > The suspicion is, of course, that these phases existed in the boardgame,
> > > and there was no real thought to whether they were necessary in the
> > > computer / iPad version. Good UI design is really, after all, partly a
> > > exercise in removing each and every unnecessary element until one
> > > arrives at the bare information necessary to move the game along.
>
> > Totally agree - so in essence it's a bad port - says nothing about the
> > boardgame though.
>
> Quite true. And it doesn't say anything about the boardgame - but it
> says volumes about the wisdom of straight-porting boardgames to computer
> games.
> > > Bad. In every sense of the word.
>
> > The boardgame currently holds a #79 rank in the wargame category over
> > at BGG with 314 gamers who've rated it. Can't be too bad.
>
> <shrug>
>
> "Dancing with the Stars" is always in the top ten TV shows in the USA,
> but I'm not sure it couldn't be "too bad." I'd call it "awful."
think Candyland and Monopoly are great games, it was done by
wargamers.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 19, 2013, 2:26:19 AM4/19/13
to
On 19 apr, 05:21, <adel...@inbox.com> wrote:
>
> See the Playdek adaptions of board game and card games to see how iPad
> adaptations should be done.
Indeed.
And the World at War series (Lock 'n Load) and Command & Colors are
being ported by those guys
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
>
> See the Playdek adaptions of board game and card games to see how iPad
> adaptations should be done.
Indeed.
And the World at War series (Lock 'n Load) and Command & Colors are
being ported by those guys
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Giftzwerg
Apr 19, 2013, 6:39:44 AM4/19/13
to
In article <1307094871388034286.3...@news.aioe.org>,
ade...@inbox.com says...
> > Also. $14.99? That's kinda pricey in a world where BATTLE ACADEMY
> > gives me ten times the gameplay at the same price - or COMBAT MISSION:
> > TOUCH gives me ten times the gameplay at one-third the price.
>
> Well, arbitarily showing or hiding certain screens could end up confusing
> the player as he wonders why he did not the Fast Pilots screen in this game
> when he had it in his previous game. This being 2013, allegations of
> bugginess would arise, entailing support calls and the pointing of fingers.
> In all, a bad implementation.
Wait a minute. It's not "arbitrary" for a system to gray-out choices
which are not relevant. In this case, it would be as simple as
replacing the "Fast Pilots Attack" screen with a dialog that briefly
appeared, noting "No Fast Pilots."
As to the player wondering about "fast pilots," I'm still in the dark
about how a pilot is "fast" or "slow" in the first place. Perhaps if
the game made this a bit clearer, there would be no risk of confusion in
the first place. And, in any event, delivering the player to a "Fast
Pilots Attack" screen with no fast pilots in play does *nothing* to
explain how a pilot is one-speed-or-the-other.
--
Giftzwerg
***
"While Ms. Giffords certainly has my sympathy for the violence she
suffered, it should be noted that being shot in the head by a lunatic
does not give one any special grace to pronounce upon public-policy
questions, nor does it give one moral license to call people 'cowards'
for holding public-policy views at variance with one?s own."
- Kevin Williamson
ade...@inbox.com says...
> > Also. $14.99? That's kinda pricey in a world where BATTLE ACADEMY
> > gives me ten times the gameplay at the same price - or COMBAT MISSION:
> > TOUCH gives me ten times the gameplay at one-third the price.
>
> the player as he wonders why he did not the Fast Pilots screen in this game
> when he had it in his previous game. This being 2013, allegations of
> bugginess would arise, entailing support calls and the pointing of fingers.
> In all, a bad implementation.
Wait a minute. It's not "arbitrary" for a system to gray-out choices
which are not relevant. In this case, it would be as simple as
replacing the "Fast Pilots Attack" screen with a dialog that briefly
appeared, noting "No Fast Pilots."
As to the player wondering about "fast pilots," I'm still in the dark
about how a pilot is "fast" or "slow" in the first place. Perhaps if
the game made this a bit clearer, there would be no risk of confusion in
the first place. And, in any event, delivering the player to a "Fast
Pilots Attack" screen with no fast pilots in play does *nothing* to
explain how a pilot is one-speed-or-the-other.
--
Giftzwerg
***
"While Ms. Giffords certainly has my sympathy for the violence she
suffered, it should be noted that being shot in the head by a lunatic
does not give one any special grace to pronounce upon public-policy
questions, nor does it give one moral license to call people 'cowards'
for holding public-policy views at variance with one?s own."
- Kevin Williamson
Giftzwerg
Apr 19, 2013, 6:43:19 AM4/19/13
to
In article <ebf68591-3d2a-4a70-93d0-519d7fb28bd7
@r4g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
> > > Totally agree - so in essence it's a bad port - says nothing about the
> > > boardgame though.
> >
> > Quite true. And it doesn't say anything about the boardgame - but it
> > says volumes about the wisdom of straight-porting boardgames to computer
> > games.
>
> Again, does anyone advocate mindless straight ports ?
I would argue that your offense goes even deeper than that; you
explicitly argue for PC designers to wholeheartedly adopt exactly the
sort of boardgaming conventions that are so painfully abundant in this
game and many others just like it.
> > "Dancing with the Stars" is always in the top ten TV shows in the USA,
> > but I'm not sure it couldn't be "too bad." I'd call it "awful."
>
> The difference being that here the voting was not done by those who
> think Candyland and Monopoly are great games, it was done by
> wargamers.
Boardgamers, though. I find it unsurprising that boardgamers like this
game. They really don't know any better. <g>
@r4g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
> > > Totally agree - so in essence it's a bad port - says nothing about the
> > > boardgame though.
> >
> > Quite true. And it doesn't say anything about the boardgame - but it
> > says volumes about the wisdom of straight-porting boardgames to computer
> > games.
>
> Again, does anyone advocate mindless straight ports ?
explicitly argue for PC designers to wholeheartedly adopt exactly the
sort of boardgaming conventions that are so painfully abundant in this
game and many others just like it.
> > "Dancing with the Stars" is always in the top ten TV shows in the USA,
> > but I'm not sure it couldn't be "too bad." I'd call it "awful."
>
> The difference being that here the voting was not done by those who
> think Candyland and Monopoly are great games, it was done by
> wargamers.
game. They really don't know any better. <g>
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 19, 2013, 7:04:36 AM4/19/13
to
On 19 apr, 12:43, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <ebf68591-3d2a-4a70-93d0-519d7fb28bd7
> @r4g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>, eddyster...@hotmail.com says...
> In article <ebf68591-3d2a-4a70-93d0-519d7fb28bd7
>
> > > > Totally agree - so in essence it's a bad port - says nothing about the
> > > > boardgame though.
>
> > > Quite true. And it doesn't say anything about the boardgame - but it
> > > says volumes about the wisdom of straight-porting boardgames to computer
> > > games.
>
> > Again, does anyone advocate mindless straight ports ?
>
> I would argue that your offense goes even deeper than that; you
> explicitly argue for PC designers to wholeheartedly adopt exactly the
> sort of boardgaming conventions that are so painfully abundant in this
> game and many others just like it.
I think you keep forgetting one important qualifier : for *beginning*
> > > > Totally agree - so in essence it's a bad port - says nothing about the
> > > > boardgame though.
>
> > > Quite true. And it doesn't say anything about the boardgame - but it
> > > says volumes about the wisdom of straight-porting boardgames to computer
> > > games.
>
> > Again, does anyone advocate mindless straight ports ?
>
> I would argue that your offense goes even deeper than that; you
> explicitly argue for PC designers to wholeheartedly adopt exactly the
> sort of boardgaming conventions that are so painfully abundant in this
> game and many others just like it.
pc wargame designers.
Why ? Because I've seen too many designs falter in the alpha stage
because designers tend to bite off more than they can chew and throw
in everything but the kitchen sink.
Also, they might know how to program - programming is easy - but they
generally know squat about game design. Game design is hard - I know
because I'm currently spending a whole day each week on it.
So, starting out with porting an existing, reputable boardgame design
over to the digital platform is a first step. Once a designer has that
under his belt he can aspire to more.
In addition : every story I hear or read about classes in video design
mention the very same thing : students all start out by doing paper
prototypes to test out certain mechanics whereas our would-be pc
wargame designers all start out by typing lots of code. And then they
hit a design hurdle, or find out the code they've been working on for
the past month is useless. They get demotivated and stop working on
their design and the results are clear : we're almost May and not a
single new design has been released this year.
> Boardgamers, though. I find it unsurprising that boardgamers like this
> game. They really don't know any better. <g>
oh, wait, no, that's just you
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Pelle Nilsson
Apr 19, 2013, 7:42:07 AM4/19/13
to
"eddys...@hotmail.com" <eddys...@hotmail.com> writes:
> Also, they might know how to program - programming is easy - but they
> generally know squat about game design. Game design is hard - I know
> because I'm currently spending a whole day each week on it.
Programming the game mechanics and a simple GUI for a simple turn-based
> Also, they might know how to program - programming is easy - but they
> generally know squat about game design. Game design is hard - I know
> because I'm currently spending a whole day each week on it.
game is very easy (especially if we ignore the software design part or
that the resulting code is very readable). Other programming tasks (eg
competitive ASL AI) can be very hard. But I agree that game design is
never easy (at least it never seems easy to me), even for a very simple
game (or perhaps especially for a very simple game?).
> So, starting out with porting an existing, reputable boardgame design
> over to the digital platform is a first step. Once a designer has that
> under his belt he can aspire to more.
(the easy part), but not help you much figuring out how to design your
own good games later, if that is the goal. I think it would be more
effective to start with designing some board games instead to learn a
bit about game design. Quicker to iterate and learn from.
--
/Pelle
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 19, 2013, 8:01:31 AM4/19/13
to
On 19 apr, 13:42, Pelle Nilsson <krigss...@pelle-n.net> wrote:
lose months of work if you do that part of the design in code.
Implementing someone else's design in code will really show you how
things all fit together in ways you'd never have discovered by merely
reading the rules or playing it once or twice.
> > So, starting out with porting an existing, reputable boardgame design
> > over to the digital platform is a first step. Once a designer has that
> > under his belt he can aspire to more.
>
> That will help make a better game, and give some programming experience
> (the easy part), but not help you much figuring out how to design your
> own good games later, if that is the goal. I think it would be more
> effective to start with designing some board games instead to learn a
> bit about game design. Quicker to iterate and learn from.
Sure, that works too - I'm basically doing exactly that because I'm in
no hurry to go digital - but if you absolutely positively want to have
a pc wargame out by X-Mas, that's not the way to go.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
> "eddyster...@hotmail.com" <eddyster...@hotmail.com> writes:
> > Also, they might know how to program - programming is easy - but they
> > generally know squat about game design. Game design is hard - I know
> > because I'm currently spending a whole day each week on it.
>
> Programming the game mechanics and a simple GUI for a simple turn-based
> game is very easy (especially if we ignore the software design part or
> that the resulting code is very readable). Other programming tasks (eg
> competitive ASL AI) can be very hard. But I agree that game design is
> never easy (at least it never seems easy to me), even for a very simple
> game (or perhaps especially for a very simple game?).
The hard part of game design is scrapping & streamlining - you can
> > Also, they might know how to program - programming is easy - but they
> > generally know squat about game design. Game design is hard - I know
> > because I'm currently spending a whole day each week on it.
>
> Programming the game mechanics and a simple GUI for a simple turn-based
> game is very easy (especially if we ignore the software design part or
> that the resulting code is very readable). Other programming tasks (eg
> competitive ASL AI) can be very hard. But I agree that game design is
> never easy (at least it never seems easy to me), even for a very simple
> game (or perhaps especially for a very simple game?).
lose months of work if you do that part of the design in code.
Implementing someone else's design in code will really show you how
things all fit together in ways you'd never have discovered by merely
reading the rules or playing it once or twice.
> > So, starting out with porting an existing, reputable boardgame design
> > over to the digital platform is a first step. Once a designer has that
> > under his belt he can aspire to more.
>
> That will help make a better game, and give some programming experience
> (the easy part), but not help you much figuring out how to design your
> own good games later, if that is the goal. I think it would be more
> effective to start with designing some board games instead to learn a
> bit about game design. Quicker to iterate and learn from.
no hurry to go digital - but if you absolutely positively want to have
a pc wargame out by X-Mas, that's not the way to go.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Giftzwerg
Apr 19, 2013, 8:58:56 AM4/19/13
to
In article <3abe29ad-0076-43e4-9435-
90af55...@s4g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com
says...
> So, starting out with porting an existing, reputable boardgame design
> over to the digital platform is a first step. Once a designer has that
> under his belt he can aspire to more.
But do they aspire to more? Or do they pocket the EZ revenue and become
another HPS, churning out boardgame simulator after boardgame simulator?
I mean, I look at this Dan Verssen guy and my first thought isn't that
he's starting his newfound career in proper computer games by porting a
boardgame.
Because what he's about is milking every last *sou* out of his XXX
LEADER boardgame line by extending it to the PC / iPad. He never gave
the slightest thought to turning this boardgame into anything except a
slavish port of the paper in order to eke a few more dollars out of it.
Why would I imagine that he's *now* going to turn into Arjuna or Fredrik
Wallin?
> In addition : every story I hear or read about classes in video design
> mention the very same thing : students all start out by doing paper
> prototypes to test out certain mechanics whereas our would-be pc
> wargame designers all start out by typing lots of code. And then they
> hit a design hurdle, or find out the code they've been working on for
> the past month is useless. They get demotivated and stop working on
> their design and the results are clear : we're almost May and not a
> single new design has been released this year.
Well, everything built by the hand of man gets a start on paper, but
only in PC wargaming does it tend to *stay* on paper.
> > Boardgamers, though. I find it unsurprising that boardgamers like this
> > game. They really don't know any better. <g>
>
> Yeah, that will be it - they all exclusive live in one wargame genre -
> oh, wait, no, that's just you
And proudly and unreservedly so.
90af55...@s4g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com
says...
> So, starting out with porting an existing, reputable boardgame design
> over to the digital platform is a first step. Once a designer has that
> under his belt he can aspire to more.
another HPS, churning out boardgame simulator after boardgame simulator?
I mean, I look at this Dan Verssen guy and my first thought isn't that
he's starting his newfound career in proper computer games by porting a
boardgame.
Because what he's about is milking every last *sou* out of his XXX
LEADER boardgame line by extending it to the PC / iPad. He never gave
the slightest thought to turning this boardgame into anything except a
slavish port of the paper in order to eke a few more dollars out of it.
Why would I imagine that he's *now* going to turn into Arjuna or Fredrik
Wallin?
> In addition : every story I hear or read about classes in video design
> mention the very same thing : students all start out by doing paper
> prototypes to test out certain mechanics whereas our would-be pc
> wargame designers all start out by typing lots of code. And then they
> hit a design hurdle, or find out the code they've been working on for
> the past month is useless. They get demotivated and stop working on
> their design and the results are clear : we're almost May and not a
> single new design has been released this year.
only in PC wargaming does it tend to *stay* on paper.
> > Boardgamers, though. I find it unsurprising that boardgamers like this
> > game. They really don't know any better. <g>
>
> Yeah, that will be it - they all exclusive live in one wargame genre -
> oh, wait, no, that's just you
Giftzwerg
Apr 19, 2013, 9:19:07 AM4/19/13
to
In article <2pwqry7...@bacon.lysator.liu.se>, krig...@pelle-n.net
says...
> > So, starting out with porting an existing, reputable boardgame design
> > over to the digital platform is a first step. Once a designer has that
> > under his belt he can aspire to more.
>
> That will help make a better game, and give some programming experience
> (the easy part), but not help you much figuring out how to design your
> own good games later, if that is the goal. I think it would be more
> effective to start with designing some board games instead to learn a
> bit about game design. Quicker to iterate and learn from.
My counter-argument is that this just gets you off on the wrong foot.
Once you decide that the job of a designer of computer games is to model
*existing games* on the computer, you've taken the first step on the
road to a life of building boardgame simulators.
And, having set out to build a boardgame simulator, there's really only
two possible outcomes:
1 - Your attempt will fail, and either the game will not be completed,
or it will fail miserably in the market. Will you then go forth and try
to design some proper computer games?
2 - Your attempt will succeed, your boardgame simulator will appear and
enjoy decent sales. Will you then go forth and try to design some
proper computer games?
Nah.
says...
> > So, starting out with porting an existing, reputable boardgame design
> > over to the digital platform is a first step. Once a designer has that
> > under his belt he can aspire to more.
>
> That will help make a better game, and give some programming experience
> (the easy part), but not help you much figuring out how to design your
> own good games later, if that is the goal. I think it would be more
> effective to start with designing some board games instead to learn a
> bit about game design. Quicker to iterate and learn from.
Once you decide that the job of a designer of computer games is to model
*existing games* on the computer, you've taken the first step on the
road to a life of building boardgame simulators.
And, having set out to build a boardgame simulator, there's really only
two possible outcomes:
1 - Your attempt will fail, and either the game will not be completed,
or it will fail miserably in the market. Will you then go forth and try
to design some proper computer games?
2 - Your attempt will succeed, your boardgame simulator will appear and
enjoy decent sales. Will you then go forth and try to design some
proper computer games?
Nah.
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 19, 2013, 9:23:33 AM4/19/13
to
On 19 apr, 14:58, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <3abe29ad-0076-43e4-9435-
> 90af554c4...@s4g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>, eddyster...@hotmail.com
boardgame designer and publisher who on various forums, including the
Matrix one, posted various messages that he was looking for
programmers to turn his cardboard designs into digital versions.
Whoever it was who turned Phantom Leader into a digital game might or
might not be interested now in taking the next step, there's no way
for either of us to know what's going to happen next, but in my
opinion he has now learned a couple of valuable lessons and has a game
under his belt, which is a helluva lot better than all the screenshots
I see appearing of games first discussed in 2005 ....
> > In addition : every story I hear or read about classes in video design
> > mention the very same thing : students all start out by doing paper
> > prototypes to test out certain mechanics whereas our would-be pc
> > wargame designers all start out by typing lots of code. And then they
> > hit a design hurdle, or find out the code they've been working on for
> > the past month is useless. They get demotivated and stop working on
> > their design and the results are clear : we're almost May and not a
> > single new design has been released this year.
>
> Well, everything built by the hand of man gets a start on paper, but
> only in PC wargaming does it tend to *stay* on paper.
I really wish you had the ability to see beyond the visual
representation and mechanics and get to the real question one should
ask about a wargame : does this game give me a good representation of
the problems facing the general at the time ?
I know that I can really get sucked in by a game, so much so that I
get the urge to light up a cigar, grin, and say "I love it when a plan
comes together".
The best thing in life is indeed to see your enemies crushed, see them
driven before you and hear the lamentations of ... well you get the
point :)
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
> In article <3abe29ad-0076-43e4-9435-
> 90af554c4...@s4g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>, eddyster...@hotmail.com
> says...
>
> > So, starting out with porting an existing, reputable boardgame design
> > over to the digital platform is a first step. Once a designer has that
> > under his belt he can aspire to more.
>
> But do they aspire to more? Or do they pocket the EZ revenue and become
> another HPS, churning out boardgame simulator after boardgame simulator?
>
> I mean, I look at this Dan Verssen guy and my first thought isn't that
> he's starting his newfound career in proper computer games by porting a
> boardgame.
>
> Because what he's about is milking every last *sou* out of his XXX
> LEADER boardgame line by extending it to the PC / iPad. He never gave
> the slightest thought to turning this boardgame into anything except a
> slavish port of the paper in order to eke a few more dollars out of it.
>
> Why would I imagine that he's *now* going to turn into Arjuna or Fredrik
> Wallin?
For starters : Dan Verssen is no programmer - he's a full-time
>
> > So, starting out with porting an existing, reputable boardgame design
> > over to the digital platform is a first step. Once a designer has that
> > under his belt he can aspire to more.
>
> But do they aspire to more? Or do they pocket the EZ revenue and become
> another HPS, churning out boardgame simulator after boardgame simulator?
>
> I mean, I look at this Dan Verssen guy and my first thought isn't that
> he's starting his newfound career in proper computer games by porting a
> boardgame.
>
> Because what he's about is milking every last *sou* out of his XXX
> LEADER boardgame line by extending it to the PC / iPad. He never gave
> the slightest thought to turning this boardgame into anything except a
> slavish port of the paper in order to eke a few more dollars out of it.
>
> Why would I imagine that he's *now* going to turn into Arjuna or Fredrik
> Wallin?
boardgame designer and publisher who on various forums, including the
Matrix one, posted various messages that he was looking for
programmers to turn his cardboard designs into digital versions.
Whoever it was who turned Phantom Leader into a digital game might or
might not be interested now in taking the next step, there's no way
for either of us to know what's going to happen next, but in my
opinion he has now learned a couple of valuable lessons and has a game
under his belt, which is a helluva lot better than all the screenshots
I see appearing of games first discussed in 2005 ....
> > In addition : every story I hear or read about classes in video design
> > mention the very same thing : students all start out by doing paper
> > prototypes to test out certain mechanics whereas our would-be pc
> > wargame designers all start out by typing lots of code. And then they
> > hit a design hurdle, or find out the code they've been working on for
> > the past month is useless. They get demotivated and stop working on
> > their design and the results are clear : we're almost May and not a
> > single new design has been released this year.
>
> Well, everything built by the hand of man gets a start on paper, but
> only in PC wargaming does it tend to *stay* on paper.
representation and mechanics and get to the real question one should
ask about a wargame : does this game give me a good representation of
the problems facing the general at the time ?
I know that I can really get sucked in by a game, so much so that I
get the urge to light up a cigar, grin, and say "I love it when a plan
comes together".
The best thing in life is indeed to see your enemies crushed, see them
driven before you and hear the lamentations of ... well you get the
point :)
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 19, 2013, 9:29:47 AM4/19/13
to
On 19 apr, 15:19, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> And, having set out to build a boardgame simulator, there's really only
> two possible outcomes:
>
> 1 - Your attempt will fail, and either the game will not be completed,
> or it will fail miserably in the market. Will you then go forth and try
> to design some proper computer games?
Well, if you fail in simply implementing someone else's design, you're
>
> And, having set out to build a boardgame simulator, there's really only
> two possible outcomes:
>
> 1 - Your attempt will fail, and either the game will not be completed,
> or it will fail miserably in the market. Will you then go forth and try
> to design some proper computer games?
100% guaranteed to fail in your own design too, because that's even
harder.
> 2 - Your attempt will succeed, your boardgame simulator will appear and
> enjoy decent sales. Will you then go forth and try to design some
> proper computer games?
>
> Nah.
lot of people are not trying to just reproduce a previous success, but
strive for bigger and better. This often leads to epic failures too,
but also produces a lot of gems.
Trying to run before you can walk is the bigger risk.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Giftzwerg
Apr 19, 2013, 11:41:16 AM4/19/13
to
In article <95be8ac1-5c8c-4128-bd03-
cde9ae...@h1g2000vbx.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com
says...
> > Well, everything built by the hand of man gets a start on paper, but
> > only in PC wargaming does it tend to *stay* on paper.
>
> I really wish you had the ability to see beyond the visual
> representation and mechanics and get to the real question one should
> ask about a wargame : does this game give me a good representation of
> the problems facing the general at the time ?
Well, PHANTOM LEADER is totally whack at *any* representation of the
problems facing a general - to say nothing of a *good* representation.
And it has *nothing* to do with the "visual representation" and
"mechanics." My complaints center around how the *system itself*
represents real-world reality, and PHANTOM LEADER just doesn't do this.
> I know that I can really get sucked in by a game, so much so that I
> get the urge to light up a cigar, grin, and say "I love it when a plan
> comes together".
Can we still be talking about PHANTOM LEADER? Cuz the only "sucked"
involved in that process was the entire game system and the experience
thereof.
cde9ae...@h1g2000vbx.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com
says...
> > Well, everything built by the hand of man gets a start on paper, but
> > only in PC wargaming does it tend to *stay* on paper.
>
> I really wish you had the ability to see beyond the visual
> representation and mechanics and get to the real question one should
> ask about a wargame : does this game give me a good representation of
> the problems facing the general at the time ?
problems facing a general - to say nothing of a *good* representation.
And it has *nothing* to do with the "visual representation" and
"mechanics." My complaints center around how the *system itself*
represents real-world reality, and PHANTOM LEADER just doesn't do this.
> I know that I can really get sucked in by a game, so much so that I
> get the urge to light up a cigar, grin, and say "I love it when a plan
> comes together".
involved in that process was the entire game system and the experience
thereof.
Giftzwerg
Apr 19, 2013, 11:44:06 AM4/19/13
to
In article <e8a8fe24-66b8-4ab3-879f-8da03a7ac7f7
@c15g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
> > 2 - Your attempt will succeed, your boardgame simulator will appear and
> > enjoy decent sales. Will you then go forth and try to design some
> > proper computer games?
> >
> > Nah.
>
> I say it depends on your motivation. In my opinion and experience a
> lot of people are not trying to just reproduce a previous success, but
> strive for bigger and better. This often leads to epic failures too,
> but also produces a lot of gems.
It also leads to endless dreck. BATTLEGROUND CCMVIII, anyone?
> Trying to run before you can walk is the bigger risk.
... and offers bigger returns.
@c15g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
> > 2 - Your attempt will succeed, your boardgame simulator will appear and
> > enjoy decent sales. Will you then go forth and try to design some
> > proper computer games?
> >
> > Nah.
>
> I say it depends on your motivation. In my opinion and experience a
> lot of people are not trying to just reproduce a previous success, but
> strive for bigger and better. This often leads to epic failures too,
> but also produces a lot of gems.
> Trying to run before you can walk is the bigger risk.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Giftzwerg
Apr 19, 2013, 2:50:11 PM4/19/13
to
In article <965380552388083947.14...@news.aioe.org>,
ade...@inbox.com says...
> >> Yeah, that will be it - they all exclusive live in one wargame genre -
> >> oh, wait, no, that's just you
> >
> > And proudly and unreservedly so.
>
> What is so bad about the HPS model? My only beef with them is that they
> started out with a base system that was not that good. Even then I bought
> quite a few of their games, the Vietnam one, the Middle East one, the
> Russiand one... I'm sure there were more, but those were the most memorable
> onea due to their settings.
And that's *my* beef with them; they started out with a rather dull
game, totally conventional, with a woodenheaded AI that was little
better than moving at random or not moving at all ... and they're still
selling that product with little in the way of significant improvements
lo these many years later.
ade...@inbox.com says...
> >> Yeah, that will be it - they all exclusive live in one wargame genre -
> >> oh, wait, no, that's just you
> >
> > And proudly and unreservedly so.
>
> started out with a base system that was not that good. Even then I bought
> quite a few of their games, the Vietnam one, the Middle East one, the
> Russiand one... I'm sure there were more, but those were the most memorable
> onea due to their settings.
And that's *my* beef with them; they started out with a rather dull
game, totally conventional, with a woodenheaded AI that was little
better than moving at random or not moving at all ... and they're still
selling that product with little in the way of significant improvements
lo these many years later.
Mike Kreuzer
Apr 25, 2013, 6:45:08 AM4/25/13
to
On 16/04/2013 11:44 PM, Giftzwerg wrote:
> In article <7a2c1317-87c7-4285-8f4e-b092570f34f4
> @y2g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
>
>>> Perhaps tomorrow I'll fire up the ol' iPad and take the group through a
>>> newbie's puzzlement at the insanity of a Dan Verssen cardgame.
>>
>> You sound like an aboriginal from high-up in the mountains of Papua
>> New Guinea who just got dropped into Times Square and is completely
>> bewildered and stupified.
>>
>> I'm sorry, but the rest of the world has seen cars before and traffic
>> lights and is familiar with the tropes of cars driving on the right
>> and such so I can assure you that your experience isn't universal and
>> to get up to speed with modern day wargaming you'll have to toughen it
>> out a bit.
>
> OK, I'm always open to the theory that the Emperor really has clothes,
> and I'm just too stupid or too much a hick to see them. Let's find out!
>
Awesome, awesome review, just got up to reading this.
Regards,
Mike Kreuzer
www.mikekreuzer.com
> In article <7a2c1317-87c7-4285-8f4e-b092570f34f4
> @y2g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
>
>>> Perhaps tomorrow I'll fire up the ol' iPad and take the group through a
>>> newbie's puzzlement at the insanity of a Dan Verssen cardgame.
>>
>> You sound like an aboriginal from high-up in the mountains of Papua
>> New Guinea who just got dropped into Times Square and is completely
>> bewildered and stupified.
>>
>> I'm sorry, but the rest of the world has seen cars before and traffic
>> lights and is familiar with the tropes of cars driving on the right
>> and such so I can assure you that your experience isn't universal and
>> to get up to speed with modern day wargaming you'll have to toughen it
>> out a bit.
>
> OK, I'm always open to the theory that the Emperor really has clothes,
> and I'm just too stupid or too much a hick to see them. Let's find out!
>
Awesome, awesome review, just got up to reading this.
Regards,
Mike Kreuzer
www.mikekreuzer.com
Giftzwerg
Apr 26, 2013, 9:34:08 AM4/26/13
to
In article <klb1fl$mg8$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, mi...@FIRSTNAMEkreuzer.com
says...
> > OK, I'm always open to the theory that the Emperor really has clothes,
> > and I'm just too stupid or too much a hick to see them. Let's find out!
> >
>
> Awesome, awesome review, just got up to reading this.
It says volumes about a game that the most fun it afforded me was an
opportunity to dole out a seriocomic tongue-lashing on USENET.
But I think the developer is missing a trick here; this game is *so*
generic that he could put trappings on it that appeal to a much wider
audience than wargamers wanting to game out the Vietnam air war.
"Dancing with the Stars" seems to be a popular TV show here in the USA,
and this game could be readily adapted. Just replace the "Steel
Factory" objective with "Lindy Hop" and replace an obstacle like "AAA
Site" with "Broken Shoelace" and event cards like "Surprise" with
"Beyonce Likes Your Dance."
Heck, the celebrity tie-in factor could be awesome, and it wouldn't even
cost that much for the licensing, since most of the "stars" doing the
dancing are aged, washed-up fatties like Kirstie Alley.
says...
> > OK, I'm always open to the theory that the Emperor really has clothes,
> > and I'm just too stupid or too much a hick to see them. Let's find out!
> >
>
> Awesome, awesome review, just got up to reading this.
opportunity to dole out a seriocomic tongue-lashing on USENET.
But I think the developer is missing a trick here; this game is *so*
generic that he could put trappings on it that appeal to a much wider
audience than wargamers wanting to game out the Vietnam air war.
"Dancing with the Stars" seems to be a popular TV show here in the USA,
and this game could be readily adapted. Just replace the "Steel
Factory" objective with "Lindy Hop" and replace an obstacle like "AAA
Site" with "Broken Shoelace" and event cards like "Surprise" with
"Beyonce Likes Your Dance."
Heck, the celebrity tie-in factor could be awesome, and it wouldn't even
cost that much for the licensing, since most of the "stars" doing the
dancing are aged, washed-up fatties like Kirstie Alley.
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 26, 2013, 9:57:17 AM4/26/13
to
On 26 apr, 15:34, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> It says volumes about a game that the most fun it afforded me was an
> opportunity to dole out a seriocomic tongue-lashing on USENET.
The good ol' principle of "if a game doesn't give me $15 worth of
>
> It says volumes about a game that the most fun it afforded me was an
> opportunity to dole out a seriocomic tongue-lashing on USENET.
entertainment playing it, it's going to give me $15 worth of
entertainment some other way"
Fair enough I guess.
I missed out on the boardgame in the math trade, but it wasn't part of
the final result so I'll try again next month. It has me intrigued,
enough to trade it for a game I don't want anymore, but not enough to
spend actual money on :)
> since most of the "stars" doing the
> dancing are aged, washed-up fatties like Kirstie Alley.
prefer to remember her the way she was in Cheers.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Holdit
Apr 26, 2013, 10:45:59 AM4/26/13
to
In article <c1da9272-918c-43c3-ba72-
832d96...@a3g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com
says...
Amen. Or in Star Trek ummm...whichever.
Some time ago I looked up Wendy James, the platinum blonde hottie from
Transvision Vamp back in the day...the rock n'roll lifestyle sure takes
its toll.
Better to remember her like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r26krlXFmOI
Before that I did a similar lookup on Graham Bonnet from Rainbow.
Similar shock. I don't think they guy has a single tooth in his head
these days.
(I must stop having these I-wonder-what-they're-up-to-these-days moments
when watching music vidoes on YouTube.)
Holdit
--
"Can I touch it if I wash my hands first? Especially this one?"
- Loud Howard
832d96...@a3g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com
says...
Some time ago I looked up Wendy James, the platinum blonde hottie from
Transvision Vamp back in the day...the rock n'roll lifestyle sure takes
its toll.
Better to remember her like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r26krlXFmOI
Before that I did a similar lookup on Graham Bonnet from Rainbow.
Similar shock. I don't think they guy has a single tooth in his head
these days.
(I must stop having these I-wonder-what-they're-up-to-these-days moments
when watching music vidoes on YouTube.)
Holdit
--
"Can I touch it if I wash my hands first? Especially this one?"
- Loud Howard
eddys...@hotmail.com
Apr 26, 2013, 10:58:18 AM4/26/13
to
On 26 apr, 16:45, Holdit <holditREM...@indigoTHE.ieCAPS> wrote:
> Some time ago I looked up Wendy James, the platinum blonde hottie from
> Transvision Vamp back in the day...the rock n'roll lifestyle sure takes
> its toll.
I bought their first cd - played it again a year or so ago and ...
> Some time ago I looked up Wendy James, the platinum blonde hottie from
> Transvision Vamp back in the day...the rock n'roll lifestyle sure takes
> its toll.
yukk ... some things do not age well and their music is definitely one
of those things.
> Before that I did a similar lookup on Graham Bonnet from Rainbow.
> Similar shock. I don't think they guy has a single tooth in his head
> these days.
started out without teeth :)
> (I must stop having these I-wonder-what-they're-up-to-these-days moments
> when watching music vidoes on YouTube.)
liked reformed for a special one-time concert which I missed due to
being abroad but the semi-illegaly taped video is all over YouTube -
they were sharp, well the guys weren't but their music still is :)
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Holdit
Apr 26, 2013, 11:08:17 AM4/26/13
to
In article <6f74f807-9b3a-49eb-813b-149a50c72810@
16g2000vbx.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
Everything else sounds like a follow-up single to my ear. Not an
uncommon phenomenon I might add.
Popes. Talk about trad Irish with an edge...e.g. "Mother Mo Chroi". But
yeah, he didn't need teeth...or good looks...or sobriety...or the
ability to speak...
jumble sale. You never know what you'll turn up. YouTube's habit of
listing a lot of unrelated stuff down the right-hand side actually
helps.
16g2000vbx.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com says...
> On 26 apr, 16:45, Holdit <holditREM...@indigoTHE.ieCAPS> wrote:
>
> I bought their first cd - played it again a year or so ago and ...
> yukk ... some things do not age well and their music is definitely one
> of those things.
That link I posted is the only track of theirs I ever listen to.
>
> I bought their first cd - played it again a year or so ago and ...
> yukk ... some things do not age well and their music is definitely one
> of those things.
Everything else sounds like a follow-up single to my ear. Not an
uncommon phenomenon I might add.
>
> That's the advantage of being a Shane MacGowan (Pogues) fan - he
> started out without teeth :)
I prefer the stuff he did after the Pogues, when he called them The
> That's the advantage of being a Shane MacGowan (Pogues) fan - he
> started out without teeth :)
Popes. Talk about trad Irish with an edge...e.g. "Mother Mo Chroi". But
yeah, he didn't need teeth...or good looks...or sobriety...or the
ability to speak...
>
> Sometimes you find golden stuff there : a local rockband I really
> liked reformed for a special one-time concert which I missed due to
> being abroad but the semi-illegaly taped video is all over YouTube -
> they were sharp, well the guys weren't but their music still is :)
>
Surfing YouTube music videos is a bit like browsing the contents of a
> Sometimes you find golden stuff there : a local rockband I really
> liked reformed for a special one-time concert which I missed due to
> being abroad but the semi-illegaly taped video is all over YouTube -
> they were sharp, well the guys weren't but their music still is :)
>
jumble sale. You never know what you'll turn up. YouTube's habit of
listing a lot of unrelated stuff down the right-hand side actually
helps.
Giftzwerg
Apr 26, 2013, 4:58:16 PM4/26/13
to
In article <c1da9272-918c-43c3-ba72-
832d96...@a3g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com
says...
832d96...@a3g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>, eddys...@hotmail.com
says...
> > since most of the "stars" doing the
> > dancing are aged, washed-up fatties like Kirstie Alley.
>
> First rule of internet : don't look-up things you don't want to see. I
> prefer to remember her the way she was in Cheers.
Even by then, she was past her sell-by date. I'd have to dial back to
> > dancing are aged, washed-up fatties like Kirstie Alley.
>
> First rule of internet : don't look-up things you don't want to see. I
> prefer to remember her the way she was in Cheers.
"Runaway" or "Star Trek II" to see her appropriately.
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