Home of the Underdogs - How do you feel about it?
Norm Koger
maintaining downloadable versions of games that are no longer
supported by publishers. They are located at
http://www.theunderdogs.org/ and carry a very large list of titles.
There are two groups of people I'd like to poll regarding the
Underdogs site: game producers (designers, publishers, developers,
etc.) and game players (everyone else).
I've never downloaded anything from Underdogs - mostly because I'm
just too darned busy. But from time to time I get requests from gamers
regarding some of my older SSI titles. SSI no longer supports the
games, and probably doesn't much care one way or the other about
Underdogs. I usually recommend a visit to the Underdogs site to
download the older games, with the caveat that I have no direct
experience and can't predict what kind of experience the gamer is
likely to have with the files.
Personally, I am inclined to support the guys at Underdogs (who seem
to be quite sincere about limiting their efforts to orphaned games
only), and I hope that the gamers out there downloading the Conflict
titles, TANKS! and Rifles are enjoying the games. Depending upon the
response I see here, I may start linking directly from the game pages
on my site to Underdogs.
So the questions:
Producers: How do you feel about Underdogs? Granted, many of those in
this particular niche haven't been around long enough to have their
work show up there - but it may eventually.
Gamers: Your opinions? If you have downloaded any titles from
Underdogs, how did they work out? Any virus problems, strange crashes
or disabled games due to problems with the rips, etc? Have you been
satisfied with Underdogs?
Regards,
Norm Koger
Software Developer
http://home.austin.rr.com/normkoger/
John
The only game I've downloaded from Underdogs was Age of Rifles. It ran
well, included the campaign disk, but the cracked executable could not
be patched, which meant that you could not use the campaign disk without
owning the original CD. Recently I picked up AOR and the campaign disk
from eBay and Purplus, and am now quite happy. There are many great
games on Underdogs, but I prefer to look for the real thing first.
(manuals!)
John
Richard Arnesen
different than most of the warez or abandonware crowd. They will
instantly take a link to a game down if you can show them where it can
be bought online or if it is in it's regular retail sales cycle. After
that you probably make next to nothing on the game, even in a shovelware
set. For instance once Horse and Musket (our first title) reaches it's
sales limit I don't think I would have a problem with them posting it
(of course assuming my developer agree ;)) as we can't make any more
money off of it, it helps increase the popularity of the genre overall,
and it can inspire new future designers with some of the ideas from
years gone past. Oh and the final bonus it might just make you new
customers for your company.
As a gamer I have downloaded some games after making CAREFUL searches to
ensure I can't play it anywhere else. I have gotten a real kick out of
the older SSI games and since I am new to computer wargaming in general
(first wargame I played was in 1995) I can find out about the history of
the genre, which interests me greatly.
Look what good PR companies have gotten for doing such things? ID has
releases not only their games but the source code to earlier games for
free, The earlier Krondor game was released prior to the new one coming
out of Sierra, and there's the example of what Matrix is doing with some
older wargaming titles. I think it's good for the genre IMHO.
But again that's my personal opinion in both cases...
In article <gf50rs85oe5vdrsnv...@4ax.com>,
--
Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
www.shrapnelgames.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Vincent Prochelo
Lords, I believe. I was also looking at one of Sid Meier's wargames. I
didn't have very much time to go through the site as thoroughly as I would
like to. Yet I think it could be a great service, especially for some of
the New Generation wargamers who were still collecting baseball cards when
some of these games were published.
As far as I am concerned, if its legal, and if the makers of the game are
okay with it, then I have no problems, and I say, "more power to ya"
-V
Norm Koger wrote:
--
-----------------------------------------------------
Click here for Free Video!!
http://www.gohip.com/free_video/
James Cobb
--
Jim Cobb
"Norm Koger" <nko...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gf50rs85oe5vdrsnv...@4ax.com...
Jeff Vitous
I have no problems if the copyright owner grants permission (as some have
done). I DO have problems with anyone who presumes to usurp copyright law
just because they think it shouldn't apply to them. Current law protects
works 50 years after the death of the author; there is no legal difference
between a book that may get only a single printing and a game that may be on
the shelves several years.
Until I see more evidence that the Underdogs is posting under legitimate
authority of the copyright holders of their content, I will continue to hold
them in the same contempt as other warez sites, and not support them in any
manner.
--
Jeff Vitous
je...@wargamer.com
Director, Special Project Development
The Wargamer
www.wargamer.com
MLHowe
I'm glad to hear that you support the idea of a responsible abandonware site.
I have purchased TOAW:COW, TOAW1 (2 copies), Age of Rifles with scenario disk
(2 copies), and have copies of Tanks, Conflict Middle East and Conflict Korea
from collections I bought, so I consider myself a strong supporter of the
genre. But I also think that abandonware is a great way to get others
interested in gaming and probably leads to sales of newer games. I'd like to
suggest that you help the Underdog site to put up a PATCHED version of Age of
Rifles, since the version 1.0 they have up now has a lot of problems and might
generate more frustration than enthusiasm. I'd love to see more developers do
the same.
fizzycyst
Dave So
"Jeff Vitous" <je...@wargamer.com> wrote in message
news:upZr5.330587$t91.3...@news4.giganews.com...
Jeff Vitous
and its mirror along with it. The ISP was a contributing factor (I won't go
into details). Needless to say, it was about as disasterous as it could
possibly be. Right now, the target date is 9/15. Thanks for your patience.
--
Jeff Vitous
je...@wargamer.com
Director, Special Project Development
The Wargamer
www.wargamer.com
"Dave So" <dav...@home.com> wrote in message
news:J8_r5.2455$Qx4.1...@news1.rdc1.il.home.com...
Marcus J. Maunula
perspective.
I have also downloaded from Underdogs and think it is a great place to visit
for nostalgia. I regard
it more of a museum of games rather than a games central. 99% of the games I
have downloaded I have already owned in some form(Amiga,C64 etc) but thrown
in some trashbin (not your games of course <g>). I rarelly play those games
for more than a couple of times though, time is limited and I'd rather check
out new stuff. BUT it serves one purpose, it gives me a kick of old time
nostalgia, like putting on records with old Depeche Mode :).
Marcus
"Norm Koger" <nko...@austin.rr.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:gf50rs85oe5vdrsnv...@4ax.com...
> For those who don't know, Home of the Underdogs is a site dedicated to
> maintaining downloadable versions of games that are no longer
> supported by publishers. They are located at
> http://www.theunderdogs.org/ and carry a very large list of titles.
>
> There are two groups of people I'd like to poll regarding the
> Underdogs site: game producers (designers, publishers, developers,
> etc.) and game players (everyone else).
> (snip)
Marcus J. Maunula
if you think it
complies with your personal ethical values.
Marcus
"James Cobb" <bism...@inxpress.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:39b0...@news.inxpress.net...
> I've had no technical problems. I wonder about the legality.
>
> --
> Jim Cobb
> "Norm Koger" <nko...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:gf50rs85oe5vdrsnv...@4ax.com...
> > For those who don't know, Home of the Underdogs is a site dedicated to
> > maintaining downloadable versions of games that are no longer
> > supported by publishers. They are located at
> > http://www.theunderdogs.org/ and carry a very large list of titles.
> >
(snip)
Damien Dougan (replace NOSPAM with a dot to reply)
HOTUD is a responsible abandonware site rather than a warez site.
As with emulation of out-of-use games, people will look back on sites like
these in a few years and be thankful that they existed - they are
effectively museums of a golden age.
Sounds stupid now I know - but we are constantly criticising ourselves for
destroying our history - imagine a historian finding an intact library from
before the Dark Ages of every book written by some of the greatest scholars
in history (hehe, and some of the really bad ones) - historians would kill
for it. My only regret is that the source code for most of these titles is
probably lost forever. It would be interesting as hell to see how they
squeezed so much into so little RAM, and all the tricks they used for
efficiency etc.
On another level, I've already purchased many of the games on HOTUD which
I've downloaded - and I've been grateful for the second game to keep them -
floppies get old and worn with age, grey text on black paper copy protection
gets faded beyond use etc. Other titles have opened my eyes to sequels of
classics I'd never know existed, or passed by earlier because I wasn't
interested in the genre at that time - thankfully I can now pick up many of
these games at budget re-release prices.
I had to sell my Spectrum to upgrade to my Atari ST, and my ST to upgrade to
my PC. For years I regretted this (I was too young to know I'd miss them
later) - but now I have the next best thing to the real hardware in the form
of emulators for these on the PC.
Similarly with arcade games - while some of these have been available on the
market (and I've bought - like Williams Arcade Classics), I missed being
able to play the games like Centipede and Space Invaders - games that as a
child, I had to go through all lengths of returning bottles for deposits
etc, and then trek miles to a smoke-filled arcade room which my parents had
forbidden me to go to to play on the electronic wonders :)
Further, not all the classics made it to every platform - so while I
couldn't afford both a C64 and a Spectrum as a child, I could play classic
wargames such as Vulcan, but missed many of the SSI games and Apple II
classics. I can play these now as emulated titles and see how computer
wargames developed through time (as well as have a blast - wargames for me
have never been about the graphics (although I do love Combat mission) - but
about the immersion - and while action games need graphics to immerse the
player, wargames do not).
On yet another note - I've purchased all the remakes which have appeared of
old classics - Centipdede, Asteroids, Battle Zone, Missile Command, Tempest
2000, Lander etc. While some of these, like BattleZone, are capable of
standing in the market place on the quality of the game, emulation and
abandonware could help raise the awareness of the original title, and
generate interest in the remake.
Damien
Norm Koger <nko...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gf50rs85oe5vdrsnv...@4ax.com...
Frode Nygaard
Campaign disk), and I have never experienced any problems at all.
This is the only chance to get to play old wargames (and games from
other genres) which aren't available in shops anymore.
Jonathan Harker
thus spoke:
>Gamers: Your opinions? If you have downloaded any titles from
>Underdogs, how did they work out? Any virus problems, strange crashes
>or disabled games due to problems with the rips, etc? Have you been
>satisfied with Underdogs?
I've downloaded from there quite a number of times. I've never had a
virus from doing so either. Some of the games have strange ways to
unpack and get running, but for the most part it has been pretty
straightforward. I think it's a great service and so long as the
original publishers/developers don't mind then great.
--
J.H.
Major H
First a bit of legal weaselspeak :) ... Some time ago I told the operator
of Underdogs that I personally did not object to his posting a very old
version of TacOps and I authorized his use of those portions of that version
of TacOps that I personally own. I advised him that there were a couple of
trade-dress details in the version that he was posting that were not my
property and that if the owners of those details objected that was between
he and they.
Since then I have received a dozen or so emails from folks who said that
they fairly quickly went to Battlefront.com to purchase the current version
of TacOps after being hooked by the obsolete version that they had
downloaded from Underdogs.
However, I would not want him to post a more current version of TacOps.
Best regards, Major H.
maj...@mac.com
http://www.battlefront.com/
Marcus J. Maunula
than help
boosting the image of the developers. I know already know that you are great
personalities but for those that doesn't know it's great. Of course making
good games helps too :).
Marcus
"Major H" <maj...@mac.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:B5D67FF8.1D0BD%maj...@mac.com...
Pete
> maintaining downloadable versions of games that are no longer
> supported by publishers. They are located at
> http://www.theunderdogs.org/ and carry a very large list of titles.
I downloaded quite a few games from threre. M.U.L.E. (a true classic), USAAF
(SSI), Seven Cities of Gold, etc..........most were C-64/Atari games and I
did so mostly to reminise as going back to play such old games doesn't
really cut it.
But they are there!
Stan Shebs
>
> I have no problems if the copyright owner grants permission (as some have
> done). I DO have problems with anyone who presumes to usurp copyright law
> just because they think it shouldn't apply to them. Current law protects
> works 50 years after the death of the author; there is no legal difference
> between a book that may get only a single printing and a game that may be on
> the shelves several years.
What does one do if the copyright holder has vanished? Computer software
is problematic vs books, because the copyrights are often owned by companies,
and after a few bankruptcies and purchases, it can become well-nigh
impossible to track down the copyright holder.
Ideally, the Library of Congress would conserve old programs such as
games, just as they do for books now. Already we're starting to see
the effects of carelessness, with much data from the 60s now being
unrecoverable. The 70s, and the beginnings of the personal computer
age - including the first computer wargames - will be next. I'm glad to
see sites like HOTUD, because redundant copying is about the most
reliable conservation technique currently available to us. Yes, it
potentially runs afoul of copyright law. But future generations would
not thank us for letting our history vanish, just because we were overly
punctilious about deleting the last remaining copies of something whose
copyright owner was missing or indifferent.
Historical wargamers ought to appreciate this especially, not only
because of we've experienced the difficulty of doing research when
the primary sources have vanished, but now also because some early
computer games are now engendering disputes over whether their
"legendary AI" was really that great or not. Without a running
program, how can we answer the question?
> Until I see more evidence that the Underdogs is posting under legitimate
> authority of the copyright holders of their content, I will continue to hold
> them in the same contempt as other warez sites, and not support them in any
> manner.
Does anybody else see the irony here, what with the Wargamer being
down for some time because both the server and its mirror lost data?
It would be even better if HOTUD had the only surviving copy of something
that was on the Wargamer site... :-)
Stan Shebs
sh...@shebs.cnchost.com
Jeff Vitous
"Stan Shebs" <sh...@shebs.cnchost.com> wrote in message
news:39B13758...@shebs.cnchost.com...
> Jeff Vitous wrote:
> >
> > I have no problems if the copyright owner grants permission (as some
have
> > done). I DO have problems with anyone who presumes to usurp copyright
law
> > just because they think it shouldn't apply to them. Current law
protects
> > works 50 years after the death of the author; there is no legal
difference
> > between a book that may get only a single printing and a game that may
be on
> > the shelves several years.
>
> What does one do if the copyright holder has vanished? Computer software
> is problematic vs books, because the copyrights are often owned by
companies,
> and after a few bankruptcies and purchases, it can become well-nigh
> impossible to track down the copyright holder.
What you do is the same thing one does when searching for an out-of-print
book...find someone with a copy willing to sell. Where does one get the
impression that there is some sort of perpetual entitlement to a copyrighted
work once its conceived?
>
> Ideally, the Library of Congress would conserve old programs such as
> games, just as they do for books now. Already we're starting to see
> the effects of carelessness, with much data from the 60s now being
> unrecoverable. The 70s, and the beginnings of the personal computer
> age - including the first computer wargames - will be next. I'm glad to
> see sites like HOTUD, because redundant copying is about the most
> reliable conservation technique currently available to us. Yes, it
> potentially runs afoul of copyright law. But future generations would
> not thank us for letting our history vanish, just because we were overly
> punctilious about deleting the last remaining copies of something whose
> copyright owner was missing or indifferent.
And if the Underdogs was some sort of altruistic digital museum preserving
code for posterity I might agree. But the Library of Congress does not give
away copies of the intellectual property it contains to anyone who asks.
The Underdogs does. HUGE difference.
>
> Historical wargamers ought to appreciate this especially, not only
> because of we've experienced the difficulty of doing research when
> the primary sources have vanished, but now also because some early
> computer games are now engendering disputes over whether their
> "legendary AI" was really that great or not. Without a running
> program, how can we answer the question?
>
Most code that becomes irretreivably lost does so because the platform it
ran on is no longer readily available. This would cover most things written
for machines in existence in the 60's and 70's. Eventually, everything
written in DOS will fall into the same catagory. Games used to be written
in assembler. Most programmers that come out of school today are unable to
identify assembly code if it were tatooed on their behinds. Old code might
be of interest to historians, but it is becomming increasingly less relevent
to programmers using modern tools.
Again, if there is a need for a digital museum of sorts, I have no problems
supporting the concept. I am not aware of any musuem, however, that gives
away its specimens, particularly when they are owned by other parties.
> > Until I see more evidence that the Underdogs is posting under legitimate
> > authority of the copyright holders of their content, I will continue to
hold
> > them in the same contempt as other warez sites, and not support them in
any
> > manner.
>
> Does anybody else see the irony here, what with the Wargamer being
> down for some time because both the server and its mirror lost data?
> It would be even better if HOTUD had the only surviving copy of something
> that was on the Wargamer site... :-)
Damn, your right! Then we could sue them for theft of intellectual
property, and recoup the losses from the extended down time! Now you're
talking! :-)
--
Jeff Vitous
je...@wargamer.com
Director, Special Projects Development
www.wargamer.com
Great Battles Section - http://www.wargamer.com/greatbattles
Dragoon Section - http://www.wargamer.com/dragoon
Fighting Steel Section - http://www.wargamer.com/fs
Age of Sail Exhibition - http://www.wargamer.com/aos
Sid Meier's Antietam! - http://www.wargamer.com/antietam
Horse and Musket Section - http://www.wargamer.com/horsenmusket
NEW! Warfare in Feudal Japan - http://www.wargamer.com/shogun
ebola
i am not worthy
Norm Koger <nko...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gf50rs85oe5vdrsnv...@4ax.com...
barry...@demon.co.uk
wrote:
>> Until I see more evidence that the Underdogs is posting under legitimate
>> authority of the copyright holders of their content, I will continue to hold
>> them in the same contempt as other warez sites, and not support them in any
>> manner.
As you clearly take a strict, and in my view, wrong, view of the
Underdogs facility might I pose another question which cropped up
elsewhere in the group recently?
Fionn Kelly, as he tends to do, was getting mightily upset with
someone from Australia who had ordered CM, this fact was not in
dispute, and was using a warez version prior to its arrival. I
personally could see no harm, although some risk, in what the person
was doing.
This is not a troll I am geuinely interested in your view.
It appears to me that, reverting to Underdogs, they are supplying a
needed service and are not harming anyone with their current policy. I
entirely accept the point the Major made that only non commercially
available games/releases should be supplied and have absolutely no
sympathy with piracy in any form. But I spend a lot of time seeking
books on military history which are long out of print and have to pay
a small fortune when they become available. Who is benefiting from
this price inflation, certainly not the original author and probably
not the original vendor of the book? In software we have a medium
which facilitates responsible, as well as irresponsible, duplication.
Should we deny ourselves the advantages of that medium?
Who is harmed by the activities of Underdog who appear to be behaving
in an ethical manner? They are surely making available programs which
would otherwise be lost to the public at large. If the original author
has lost interest, is uncontactable, whatever then why should these
programs languish unseen?
Barry
Oddjob
library of older, unavailable, games. Underdogs removes games that they
are asked to remove and provide links to buy obscure titles that are still
commercially available.
A huge problem in the gaming industry is a lack of memory, IMHO. Many new
computer owners just learning about games have no way of getting a handle
on what's come before and assessing new titles in light of the classics.
Many reviewers and developers could use a similiar brushing up. If you
haven't been lucky enough to be computer gaming throughout the 80's and
90's how else can learn about the games that came before? Yes, some are
still available in one form or another - and Underdogs will tell you where
to go get 'em.
I've only downloaded a couple titles from there, ones I was curious about,
and played through only briefly to get a handle on them. I tend to like
boxes and printed manuals so when I do encounter a title I like, as the
result of being in a commercially released 'classic' edition or
compilation or because of a site like Underdogs I will, do, and have go
out and try to hunt down a full commercial release with all the trimmings.
Underdogs offers gamers a context to understand the industry. The names,
developers, publishers and, most importantly, titles that got us where we
are can be found there and nowhere else.
Gbruce121
i personally download a LOT of stuff from underdogs. At least one game a
week.... and i have never ever gotten a virus or had anything strange happen.
The biggest advantage is just being able to get some of the great oldies that i
miss, and some of the ones that i was unable to try out. Plus if i download a
game from there and it sucks or doesn't run i can just delete it and download
another one. My biggest/only qualm with them is that it is usually just the
game and not the documentation which can be very difficult. I recently tried
playing from sumter to appomattox without the rules and found it impossible,
but i was able to resolve it by deleting it and getting something else. I think
it is a great service, not just because of the free games, but more because
they have the older ones that ya can't even buy any more. Just my two cents,
and remember ya get what ya pay for..
---Josh Bruce
visit my home page at http://hometown.aol.com/gbruce121
John Beaderstadt
> It appears to me that, reverting to Underdogs, they are supplying a
> needed service and are not harming anyone with their current policy.
This is arguable.
The problem isn't with the games, themselves. I think everyone agrees that, in
their original form, these games are merely museum pieces with no real commercial
value. The problem is that, if these games can be deemed to have entered the public
domain, then their copyrights are no longer in force. This, in turn, invalidates or
restricts any copyright for a newer version and *this*, in turn, means that a newer
version of an old favorite may well never happen.
This is why companies fight like mad under the most seemingly ridiculous
circumstances to defend their copyrights; once lost, they're gone for good. I know
one guy who was threatened with a law suit for painting a Monopoly board on his
porch. He lives in an old, refurbished railway station, and the porch wraps all the
way around the building; apparently, someone from Hasbro(?) saw an aerial survey
picture, where the "board" was visible.
> ...I spend a lot of time seeking
> books on military history which are long out of print...
Apples and oranges. A book is an entity of itself, and the author/publisher has
realized a profit off of every copy printed. This cannot be said of copied
software.
--
"I tried to imagine the easiest way God could have done it."
--Albert Einstein
SR
found it quite enjoyable, not as good as your newer games like TOAW
<g>.
If there wasn't any place like this how many developers are going
to profit from older games? I would imagine a number of people who
have tried some of these older games have gone out and bought other
old titles by the same programmer. I doubt if they would have
bothered spending money on any older, relatively unknown (to them at
least) games if they hadn't tried games by the same developer from
the underdogs.
SR
emor...@home.com
>
>Until I see more evidence that the Underdogs is posting under legitimate
>authority of the copyright holders of their content, I will continue to hold
>them in the same contempt as other warez sites, and not support them in any
>manner.
>
>--
>Jeff Vitous
>je...@wargamer.com
>Director, Special Project Development
>The Wargamer
>www.wargamer.com
>
>
Granted that is technically correct. But in reality these games,
many of which sold originally for $40-$60 list were eventually
re-released in compilation CD format where one got several dozen of
them for $40. In turn the comp cd's eventually ended up in the $5
bargain bins and, like the origjnal releases, went out of publication
and are no longer available. The retail value of these games today are
probably in the 2 or 3 cent category if that.
In addition the original publishers, mostly SSI and SSG, have
pretty much gotten out of the wargame business except in the most beer
& pretzels way and SSG is itself giving away an enhanced version of
it's last game (Ardennes Offensive) for nothing.
It seems to me in this case the publishers shouldn't really care
since the value of the product is probably lower then the medium it's
put on. On the other hand game players who no longer have that
functioning Apple II or Commadore might want to relive the past or the
curious might want to see how these games evolved.
I don't see the harm myself.
Bob
Skip
Jeff Vitous wrote:
> And if the Underdogs was some sort of altruistic digital museum preserving
> code for posterity I might agree. But the Library of Congress does not give
> away copies of the intellectual property it contains to anyone who asks.
> The Underdogs does. HUGE difference.
> >
I see your point, but I am unclear on how one could 'appreciate' an old out of
print game by staring at a screen snapshot on the internet.
Stan Shebs
>
> What you do is the same thing one does when searching for an out-of-print
> book...find someone with a copy willing to sell. Where does one get the
> impression that there is some sort of perpetual entitlement to a copyrighted
> work once its conceived?
At the risk of going OT, I'll say it: "because it's in the Constitution".
Copyrights are explicitly described as being for limited periods, for the
purpose of encouraging authors. Congress sets the length of the period,
and they could decide next week to make copyrights last for only 60 days.
So in the long run, yes, the public *is* entitled to free use of creative
work.
> And if the Underdogs was some sort of altruistic digital museum preserving
> code for posterity I might agree. But the Library of Congress does not give
> away copies of the intellectual property it contains to anyone who asks.
> The Underdogs does. HUGE difference.
I haven't been in the LoC personally, so I don't know, but most libraries
do have copying machines. But you miss my point, which is that digital
museums don't exist today, nor do the techniques for preserving digital
material indefinitely. It would be stupid to let the material disappear
because conventional libraries and museums don't know what to do with it!
> > Historical wargamers ought to appreciate this especially, not only
> > because of we've experienced the difficulty of doing research when
> > the primary sources have vanished, but now also because some early
> > computer games are now engendering disputes over whether their
> > "legendary AI" was really that great or not. Without a running
> > program, how can we answer the question?
>
> Most code that becomes irretreivably lost does so because the platform it
> ran on is no longer readily available. This would cover most things written
> for machines in existence in the 60's and 70's. Eventually, everything
> written in DOS will fall into the same catagory.
You're quite right; fortunately, there is a subculture of programmers
who write software emulators for old machines! Some of the emulators
are pretty good too, they handle all the graphics, sound, etc. Nearly
all PC-class machines from before about 1990 have emulators now.
> Games used to be written
> in assembler. Most programmers that come out of school today are unable to
> identify assembly code if it were tatooed on their behinds. Old code might
> be of interest to historians, but it is becomming increasingly less relevent
> to programmers using modern tools.
"Of interest to historians" is good enough for me, but if you just *have*
to tie it to present-day commercial advantage, imagine a game programming
company who's trying to make their new game's AI match the "legendary AI"
of an old game. If the AI wasn't so legendary, or if it turns out
that it cheated in some way, the company could end up making an expensive
effort to outdo something that never existed.
But again, as an amateur historian, I'm more interested in enabling
historical research.
(Oh, and I'm well-able to read and reverse-engineer assembly language for
a number of different machines. A specialized skill, like reading Greek.)
> Again, if there is a need for a digital museum of sorts, I have no problems
> supporting the concept. I am not aware of any musuem, however, that gives
> away its specimens, particularly when they are owned by other parties.
But how many museums have the ability to make an infinite number of
perfect copies of their specimens? In fact, museums *do* make copies
of their specimens whenever possible, and make them available; for instance,
they will often make casts of fossils and send those around to researchers,
and many museums exhibit casts of ancient sculpture, made for them by the
museums with the originals. And despite all the care, originals have
been lost, and the casts are all that survive.
Since there isn't a preexisting concept of what a digital museum should
look like or how it should operate, we have to improvise. Sites like
HOTUD are a good stopgap until conservation professionals catch up with
the software world.
Stan Shebs
sh...@shebs.cnchost.com
Bendito
>This is why companies fight like mad under the most seemingly ridiculous
>circumstances to defend their copyrights; once lost, they're gone for good.
I know
>one guy who was threatened with a law suit for painting a Monopoly board on
his
>porch. He lives in an old, refurbished railway station, and the porch wraps
all the
>way around the building; apparently, someone from Hasbro(?) saw an aerial
survey
>picture, where the "board" was visible.
This situation is not "seemingly ridiculuous" - it *is* ridiculous.
Thanks for sharing the story, by the way.
Bendito;
Bendito
>Of which I would support a preservation institution, as opposed to relying
>on the stability of a pirate website. The moment the SPA gets a bug up
>their ass about practices at The Underdogs, its over.
What's stopping you from being that bug, Jeff, if you feel so strongly
about it?
Bendito;
Bendito
>In <39B26637...@shebs.cnchost.com>, Stan Shebs wrote:
>What's so specialized about reading and writing assembly code? Many
>people can do it
I think you're having some difficulty in the concept of proportions. The
number of people who can program in assembly is not only a small percentage
of the general population, it's also a small percentage of the programming
profession. If that isn't a specialisation, then we should eliminate the
word from the English language.
Bendito;
Marcus J. Maunula
as possible.
I think it would be a really bad public relation move from the software
industry if they did this.
If I'm not mistaken this site was featured in CNN.com or some similar
program so it's definatelly popular
and known.
Marcus
"Giftzwerg" <gift...@NOSPAMZ.dwp.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:MPG.141c72db2...@news.giganews.com...
> Jeff Vitous (je...@wargamer.com) writes;
>
> > The moment the SPA gets a bug up
> > their ass about practices at The Underdogs, its over. I think its just
a
> > matter of time before one or more major publishers decide that even a
few
> > people playing old games are taking sales away from new products, and
will
> > set things in motion.
>
> <laughter>
>
> You've got it backwards; the only folks doomed to start moaning "it's
> over" are those trying to defend their excessive pricing franchises (or
> their indifference to keeping a product available to consumers...)
> against an increasingly powerful digital environment where bits & bytes
> move freely from one place to another.
>
> Squash one site, and another simply appears. Litigate Napster out of
> existence, and another will arrive overnight.
>
> It's over, all right...
>
> --
> Giftzwerg
> ***
> E-lec-trical Banana,
> Is gonna be a sudden craze,
> E-lec-trical Banana,
> Is bound to be the very next rage...
CoolColJ
language ) will increase the need for the
real hardcore coders :)
--
CCJ
Check out my Artwork and Music
My website --------> www.geocities.com/coolcolj
--------------------------------------------------------
Bendito <lone...@deletethis.tig.com.au> wrote in message
news:8ou427$j2b$1...@bugstomper.ihug.com.au...
Jeff Vitous
Stan's idea, which I would support nonetheless). I am simply opposed to
piracy in all of its forms.
--
Jeff Vitous
je...@wargamer.com
Director, Special Project Development
The Wargamer
www.wargamer.com
"Bendito" <lone...@deletethis.tig.com.au> wrote in message
news:8ou3mj$iuj$1...@bugstomper.ihug.com.au...
Jeff Vitous
not, that is good to know. I will refrain from publishing in that country.
--
Jeff Vitous
je...@wargamer.com
Director, Special Project Development
The Wargamer
www.wargamer.com
"Mike Mohr" <mike...@aut.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:39B424B5...@aut.ac.nz...
> Jeff Vitous wrote:
>
> > > At the risk of going OT, I'll say it: "because it's in the
Constitution".
> > > Copyrights are explicitly described as being for limited periods, for
the
> > > purpose of encouraging authors. Congress sets the length of the
period,
> > > and they could decide next week to make copyrights last for only 60
days.
> > > So in the long run, yes, the public *is* entitled to free use of
creative
> > > work.
> >
> > 60 days? You are WAY off the mark, even for purpose of illustration.
> > Copyrights are in effect (and do NOT have to be registered to be valid)
75
> > years after the death of the author. This was adjusted upwards from (I
> > think) 50 years flat when the last copyright act went into effect.
> >
> > For legal use of games that enter public domain by expiration of
copyright
> > protection, check back in about 70 years when Dani Bunten's MULE and
other
> > games qualify. Until then, its a moot point.
>
> You are going under the wrong assumption that everyone in the world
adheres to
> US law. Last time I checked, people living in New Zealand must adhere to
the
> law as defined for NZ. New Zealand recognises US copyrights as being
valid, but
> only for the duration as defined by New Zealand law. Some other countries
don't
> even recognise the validity of US copyrights.
>
> Another thing to consider is that the duration of a copyright extends only
as
> far as the law allows at the time the copyrighted object was created,
unless
> specifically provided for in subsequent legislation. This means a
document
> copyrighted in 1964 had a copyright life of 31 years, making it public
domain in
> 1995.
>
> Mike...@aut.ac.nz
>
Don Waugaman
Giftzwerg <gift...@NOSPAMZ.dwp.net> wrote:
>Graphophobic (grapho...@aol.com) writes;
[ post slightly reformatted for line lenght ]
>> This will probably happen soon to other companies (especially xerox and
>> band-aid, and you can sometimes see advertisements specifically pointing
>> this out). The problem here is not consent, but the fact that you can't
>> trademark a generic name.
>But even so ... are you suggesting that Canon would ever officially
>advertise its newest photocopier as a "Xerox Machine?"
The Canons of the world aren't the problem. They've spent a lot of time
building up brand identity on the same scale as Xerox.
If, on the other hand, Xerox loses their company name as a trademark (which
is more difficult with company names than product names, IIRC - but
possible) then Joe Schmoe can market cheap knockoffs copiers as "Xerox
machines." The result, of course, is that Joe makes some quick money
before he skips town, and Xerox suffers because customers of Joe who
were deceived into thinking they were buying the real McCoy will be less
likely to buy Xerox in the future, and probably also sullying they company's
reputation with others.
--
- Don Waugaman (d...@cs.arizona.edu) O- _|_ Will pun
Web Page: http://www.cs.arizona.edu/people/dpw/ | for food
In the Sonoran Desert, where we say: "It's a dry heat..." | <><
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here! This is the war room!
Don Waugaman
Jeff Vitous <je...@wargamer.com> wrote:
>Most nations adhere to international copyright law. If New Zealand does
>not, that is good to know. I will refrain from publishing in that country.
As near as I can tell, from what Mr. Mohr wrote and the latest version of
the Copyright FAQ I could find, NZ is a signatory to the Berne Convention
and adheres to its stipulations. None of what was said below goes against
any part of the Berne Convention as far as I can see (and, of course,
IANAL). Was there something in what he wrote that made you think
otherwise?
[ Mr. Mohr's post follows, slightly reformatted ]
>"Mike Mohr" <mike...@aut.ac.nz> wrote in message
>news:39B424B5...@aut.ac.nz...
>> You are going under the wrong assumption that everyone in the world
>> adheres to US law. Last time I checked, people living in New Zealand
>> must adhere to the law as defined for NZ. New Zealand recognises US
>> copyrights as being valid, but only for the duration as defined by
>> New Zealand law. Some other countries don't even recognise the
>> validity of US copyrights.
>> Another thing to consider is that the duration of a copyright extends only
>> as far as the law allows at the time the copyrighted object was created,
>> unless specifically provided for in subsequent legislation. This means
>> a document copyrighted in 1964 had a copyright life of 31 years, making
>> it public domain in 1995.
--
- Don Waugaman (d...@cs.arizona.edu) O- _|_ Will pun
Web Page: http://www.cs.arizona.edu/people/dpw/ | for food
In the Sonoran Desert, where we say: "It's a dry heat..." | <><
Which is worse: ignorance or apathy? Who knows? Who cares?
Jeff Vitous
law. IIR (and I could be wrong), the latest US Copyright Act was enacted to
conform to international law. I can't say for sure what significant
differences there might be between US and NZ law, but it is really
irrelevent to this discussion, since both I and the website in question are
under US jurisdiction.
btw...do you have a link for that Copyright FAQ? I'd like to check it out
when I have a moment. Thanks.
--
Jeff Vitous
je...@wargamer.com
Director, Special Project Development
The Wargamer
www.wargamer.com
"Don Waugaman" <d...@CS.Arizona.EDU> wrote in message
news:8p3iej$nrp$1...@berlioz.cs.arizona.edu...
Jerry Steiger
"ebola" <eb...@zaire.com> wrote in message
news:sr4ddf4...@corp.supernews.com...
> is this THE Norm Koger?
>
> i am not worthy
>
Follow the news group for a while and you will see that there are a few
designers who relish a bit of reasonable interaction with players. Norm,
John Tiller,and Major H. are on fairly often. John Dunnigan (a ghost from
the cardboard past to most of the people here, I suppose) shows up every now
and then. No doubt I've forgotten other equally luminous presences.
Jerry Steiger
Adam Kippes
wrote:
> John Dunnigan
James, that's James.
> (a ghost from the cardboard past to most of the people here, I suppose)
A ghost, perhaps, but I sure have enough of his games.
-- AK
--
adam....@pobox.com
PGP keys available from servers
Jason Ehlers
>From: Adam Kippes adam....@pobox.com
>Date: 9/5/00 10:15 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <uidbrsot03pf989fq...@4ax.com>
>
>James, that's James.
{...Dunnigan}
>
>> (a ghost from the cardboard past to most of the people here, I suppose)
>
>A ghost, perhaps, but I sure have enough of his games.
His books are good, too.
Maybe if someone starts an off-topic thread about
cuisine, James will delurk.
In a thread in a similar NG as this one about Ciatti's and I mistakenly
referred to Ciatti's resturant in Minneapolis/Roseville as "Buca" when I was
told was downtown, thanks for the correction.
Anyway, Ciatti's had a great atmosphere, but the food itself was disappointing,
if I recall. It was romantic enough for my wife and I. Candles, etc.
I would be exaggerating to say it was like being served Chef Boyardee in St.
Peter's Cathedral, but you get the idea.
Not the kind of place where I would break out the rules for Advanced Third
Reich and start making notes. I was afraid someone would _look_ at me.
On the other hand, across the street from the Source Wargaming store is a gyro
place which I forgot the name of - a mediterranean dude in a greasy paper hat
served us "Philly Gyro" that must have weighed a couple pounds while I examined
the rules for the copy of "Test of Arms" I just bought. I drank a couple sodas
with it, and soon became very drowsy. The wife drove home and I slept for
several hours. Now _that's a gyro_, that's all I can say. No pretension, just
good food.
Jason
Project Gutenberg E-Library http://promo.net/cgi-promo/pg/t9.cgi
Gene Simmons' Celebrity Bedroom http://www.kissdominion.com/BEDROOM.HTM
DBA Ancient+ Medieval, Miniature + PC Wargame http://www.dbaol.com
Travlang http://dictionaries.travlang.com/
CoolColJ
Alex Pavloff <IHAT...@pavloff.netSPAM> wrote in message
news:kvc6rsotkh95qhdug...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 03 Sep 2000 20:42:45 GMT, "CoolColJ"
> <cool...@optushome.com.au> wrote:
> Gee, I just think that there will be less games for the Playstation
> 2... :-)
>
> As a programmer who can muddle their way through assembly (but would
> rather not), I'd have to say that the cases where assembly should be
> used are very, very minimal. It can help you out of tricky spots,
> yes, especially when working with really tight embedded platforms, but
> I'm going to go out on a limb here and argue that the increased and
> cheaper computing power available to us nowadays allows us to
> concentrate more on making more useful (and bug-free <g>) software
> rather than spending our time squishing it as small and fast as it
> could be.
>
Well since everything went C++ on the PC, I don't think I've seen a single
bug free game yet :P
ccj
Don Waugaman
Jeff Vitous <je...@wargamer.com> wrote:
>He did infer that NZ copyright law was somehow different from US copyright
>law. IIR (and I could be wrong), the latest US Copyright Act was enacted to
>conform to international law.
Again, IANAL, but the Berne Convention (to which the US is a signatory by
treay) sets up certain minimums for copyright protection. Countries can
exceed the minimums in their own bodies of law. I have heard that the
Digital Millenium Copyright Act considerably exceeds the protections
mandated by the Berne Convention in some areas.
Thus, both NZ and the US could be conforming to the Berne Convention, yet
have distinctly different laws.
> I can't say for sure what significant
>differences there might be between US and NZ law, but it is really
>irrelevent to this discussion, since both I and the website in question are
>under US jurisdiction.
True enough.
>btw...do you have a link for that Copyright FAQ? I'd like to check it out
>when I have a moment. Thanks.
There's a 1994 version on <http://www.faqs.org/faqs/law/copyright/faq/>.
Of course, this version won't have information on the revisions caused by
the DMCA, but the basic information on Berne should still be solid.
There is also <http://www.faqs.org/faqs/law/copyright/myths/> which has a
rather breezier style, but good information nevertheless.
--
- Don Waugaman (d...@cs.arizona.edu) O- _|_ Will pun
Web Page: http://www.cs.arizona.edu/people/dpw/ | for food
In the Sonoran Desert, where we say: "It's a dry heat..." | <><
A student who changes the course of history is probably taking an exam.
R Wesseling
<je...@wargamer.com> wrote:
> Most nations adhere to international copyright law. If New Zealand does
> not, that is good to know. I will refrain from publishing in that country.
>
> --
Funny guy.
That is not what the prvious poster said. He said NZ does not necessarily
adhere to US law. Get things right b4 you make a fool of yourself
Shawn Wilson
"John Beaderstadt" <be...@together.net> wrote in message
news:39B25185...@together.net...
> The problem isn't with the games, themselves. I think everyone agrees
that, in
> their original form, these games are merely museum pieces with no real
commercial
> value. The problem is that, if these games can be deemed to have entered
the public
> domain, then their copyrights are no longer in force. This, in turn,
invalidates or
> restricts any copyright for a newer version and *this*, in turn, means
that a newer
> version of an old favorite may well never happen.
The law doesn't work that way. *Trademarks* can be lost, not copyrights.
'Underdogs' works because the copyrights to those games have become all but
worthless. SSI isn't going to lose its trademark for 'Age of Rifles'
because of 'Underdogs', and a hypothetical 'Age of Rifles II' would be
covered by its own copyright. All that's happened is that the copyright to
AOR has become worthless as far as SSI is concerned, but that's why AOR is
abandonware in the first place.
Jim Linwood
<adam....@pobox.com> writes:
>A ghost, perhaps, but I sure have enough of his games.<
Jim is very much alive and available at:
It's hard to believe there are wargamers who haven't heard of Jim Dunnigan who
could auguably be called the Father of Modern Wargaming and without whom there
would be very few of us in the hobby.
Jim
JL
Eddy Sterckx
>It's hard to believe there are wargamers who haven't heard of Jim Dunnigan who
>could auguably be called the Father of Modern Wargaming and without whom there
>would be very few of us in the hobby.
For the sake of argument I would call Charles Roberts the *real*
founding father of modern wargaming. He started a little company
called Avalon Hill way back :)
But since Charles quit the wargame business in the sixties , and since
Jim Dunnigan was one of the first really good designers - and the only
one of the old guard still left today - he truly is the real thing :
the top grognard.
Greetz to all,
Eddy Sterckx
Mantis
Underdogs. (I had originals of both moo and moo2, but the moo disc was
trashed <kids> and I desperately wanted to get a copy in CD form, and voila,
I found the site.)
So I come back, and see a zillion posts to this. Thinking to avoid
redundant postings, and get the whole story first, I let temptation on
certain messages pass me by, and waited til now to post.
The result: I can't remember half the things I at first wanted to say, but
think I can summarize my feelings on this.
Pirating sucks, that's true.
But it IS in shades of gray. I'm in Canada, so was lost by some of the
harder stuff re: the US laws on the subject. Here, recording a song of the
radio is somehow illegal. Yet everyone does it, and it's never been
prosecuted. What could they really do? Same thing for VCRs, etc. The
problem was, it's not in a companies self interest to sue one guy that
'steals' from them in this manner. But how to get them all at once?
Impossible, as they are independant of each other, and you'd never know
who's doing it and who is not. Along comes Napster, and gives a name to the
'baddies', a focul point for all that law and money to come smashing down...
Will this stop the pirating of music from albums/tapes/radio, etc? Of
COURSE not! But it WILL allow the big corps to flex some muscle, and feel a
little better about being impotent to this type of thing for so long.
I (personally) see nothing wrong with recording a song of the radio, or a
show off the tv. I do it all the time. I know, however, that copying
software (for anything other than a backup) IS wrong. Yet shades of gray!
I owned the original MOO. It died. I couldn't get any help from
Microprose. I paid for it, and there it is at Underdogs, a mere few seconds
to DL on my cable modem. I have it now.
I used to know (casually) a couple people that worked at SSI, way back in
the 8 bit days. I had ALOT of their games. I would say most of them,
actually (for the C64). And I bought them all. Now, there are STILL some
classics that I would play again. Dan(i) B's MULE (not SSI, I know), Don
Cermak's Colonial Conquest (one of the few titles that my non-grognard buds
would play) etc etc. I wanted these games again. I called SSI and offered
to buy them again. (They used to offer games in 'baggies', bundled
together, really cheap.) They had nothing, couldn't tell me where I could
get anything, had no suggestions. So, I simply thought I was screwed there
too. And then I find Underdogs and C64 sites w/emulators, etc.
Now, where does the truth REALLY lie? It's all rationalization, for most of
us. If one form is ok, then they should ALL be ok. (Evil isn't evil based
on how much damage it causes, or who it hurts. If something is wrong, it's
simply wrong, and that's that.) But they aren't even to me. I understand
my own arguement, and believe it to be correct, yet even I can't ABIDE by
it. I KNOW ripping games off is wrong, and I don't do that. I have cash, I
want something, I buy it. But taping the last episode of so-and-so,
planning to keep it forever, making a mix tape from the radio for that big
bash next week... Unless they make it a capital offence, who's gonna stop
doing these things? I sure won't!
Underdogs... Illegal? A good portion of what they are doing IS, I suppose.
Was what I did with the material there illegal (Re:MOO)? I wouldn't think
so, and it's certainly not immoral. I still have the (dead) original discs.
And I have the game now. So that's righteous, and just. But who can say
what I (or anyone) might do with the rest of the material there?
It's a gray area, and always will be to me, as long as I'm willing to
'endorse' piracy on ANY level (songs, etc). Let the man with NO piracy
whatsoever say that it is wrong, and for him, the statement would be
correct. (But God has BETTER things to do! :) For the rest of us, we
simply must make up our own minds.
"Shawn Wilson" <shawn....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:kFtt5.1645$5E3....@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Bendito
>Pirating sucks, that's true.
>
>But it IS in shades of gray.
[snip]
Excellent post. Thank you for reaffirming my faith in humankind. :)
Bendito;
Mantis
the forest for the trees... :)
Great weekend, all!
"Bendito" <lone...@deletethis.tig.com.au> wrote in message
news:8p97du$mdf$1...@bugstomper.ihug.com.au...