Vehicle realism, and roadwar
Fred Orispää
These were relatively pleasant little rpg/strategy hybrids by SSI
back in the 80s. It was set in a mad max post-apocalyptic world,
and a large part of the game was spent in the car battles which
were done in a standard turn-based strategy way.
But, it had one great aspect that made these almost the best
strategy games I've ever played (besides the cool setting).
You didn't control vehicles by being given a generic "range",
you select the destination hex and poof they go there. This
is how it seems to be in ALL strategy games (excluding RTS's
but I'm not talking about those).
How realistic is that? Your APC is sitting behind a ridge
firing at the enemy, defeat looks certain, so it floors it
out of sight. It's heading at full speed away from the
enemy, but now the enemy starts losing, and the APC now
has the ability to magically come to a total halt, do a 180
degree turn, and accelerate to full speed in the blink of an eye.
Similarly, you're waiting to ambush a convoy of trucks that are
speeding down a road at 70mph. A trigger happy soldier opens fire
a bit early, and magically all the trucks can halt and be
heading again in the opposite direction at full speed.
You can forget about reality. What would really happen is that
these trucks fully loaded with heavy weaponry for their cargo,
would take AGES to come to halt, and even then probably swerve
off the road, crash into each others' rears and whatnot.
Anyway, Roadwar simulated this, pretty much. You didn't control
vehicles by having a generic "range" value, and clicking where
you want the vehicle to go, and they're there. Vehicles
were controlled with Accelerate, Decelerate, turn left and
turn right. so, for example, to control a bus, it starts out at
0mph. you hit accelerate, and it will move one hex in the
direction its facing. next turn you want to make a hard turn
right, and you find youre able to make a 90 degree turn right.
then you accelerate more, and you move forward two hexes this
time. you want to turn again, but youre already moving too fast
for a 90 degree turn so youre only able to turn, say, 45 degrees.
similarly deceleration is gradual, depending on the weight of the
vehicle, whether or not tires are blown out, etc.
so youd often run into very tense situation, for example, you're
flooring a busload of machine gunners past an enemy squad,
but as you pass them you realize youre heading straight at a stone
wall behind which are more enemies. full braking ensues,
one bus may crash straight into and through the stone wall,
killing some enemies in the process, another tries to swerve but
due to the high speed he smashes into a tree, another plows into
the back of another bus, etc etc.
This is so much more realistic than what usually is the case.
It adds whole new strategic elements to ambushes and the
maneuvering of vehicles in general.
I really wonder why this isn't the usual way to treat vehicles?
Games like Steel Panthers will try and simulate everything down
to the angle of armor on tanks, elevations and penetration,
but somehow all vehicles have the magical ability to turn at
any radius at any speed.
Are there other games that use this system? (Would anyone please
want to make a remake of Roadwar 2000 into a full-blown strategy
game?)
Chris Proctor
@tron.sci.fi>:
<snip interesting discussion>
Sounds a lot like Car Wars, by Steve Jackson games. I've always wanted a
computer game version!
Chris
john graesser
"Chris Proctor" <chris_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:91AFCA58chrisp...@61.9.128.12...
There was a computer game version years ago. I think i was back in the days
of the C-64 since I think that is what I ran it on. It had elements of the
AADA as well as a mission based economy.
thanks, John.
Clint Pross
Same here! FWIW, the Steve Jackson title (the "pocket" game) actually
seemed to model turning and accelerating and wiping out pretty damn
"realistically" (but what did I know, I was 16 or so).
Bent C Dalager
"Auto Duel". Quite a bit of fun, even if the vehicle handling was a
tad crappy.
Cheers
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - b...@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs
James Doles
>want to make a remake of Roadwar 2000 into a full-blown strategy
>game?)
>
There was a freeware game a few years back, I think it was called "circa 2080" or something
like that. In it, the vehicles performed like you describe, taking a while to get up to speed
and then having to slow down to make a sharp turn. I think this is also done in Combat
mission, but I only played the demo when it came out.
Really is a good idea, surprising it isn't seen more often. It'd make a great variable in
games that let you design your own units, like MOO... (!lightbulb!). This would be great in
MOO! in space, a ship doesn't really have a limited top speed, but imagine if those big
battleships could get up to speed, quickly pass through 'no mans land' and try to start braking
in time to end up right amongst the enemy ships and clober them with short range firepower.
There could be new technoligies to research that would improve this aspect of movement. bigger
engines= faster acceleration, not higher theoretical top speed. Actually, this is beginning
to sound a lot like Starfleet Command, sometimes in that game when a bigger enemy is heading
straight at you the best thing is to run straight at him so that you'll spend the minimal
amount of time at close range.
-------------------------
James
How many lawyers does it take to roof a house? Depends on how thin you slice them.
Jeremy Reaban
"Fred Orispää" <ro...@fede2.intra.tumsan.fi> wrote in message
<snip>
> Are there other games that use this system? (Would anyone please
> want to make a remake of Roadwar 2000 into a full-blown strategy
> game?)
Well, bear in mind, Roadwar had a different scale than most games
these days. The scale was literal - the size of the vehicle was on
the same scale as the terrain.
And bear in mind, back when Roadwar came out, PC games were for geeks
& nerds. Nowdays they are for morons. (I mean, geeze, look the Dell
commercials, well, they likely don't have them in Europe, but imagine
Bill & Ted of movie fame and you have the general idea )
Jeffery S. Jones
wrote:
>Does anybody remember Roadwar 2000 or its sequel, Roadwar Europa?
>These were relatively pleasant little rpg/strategy hybrids by SSI
>back in the 80s. It was set in a mad max post-apocalyptic world,
>and a large part of the game was spent in the car battles which
>were done in a standard turn-based strategy way.
Yes, it was a very nice game. SSI always did do some very fine
strategy games.
Sometimes, RTS do pay attention to acceleration and such. But it
does complicate things in a tactical game.
The Roadwar games had a close relation to Steve Jackson's Car Wars
games. The design isn't identical, but the influence is quite plain
to me. The Car Wars strategy board game used similar mechanics.
>Are there other games that use this system? (Would anyone please
>want to make a remake of Roadwar 2000 into a full-blown strategy
>game?)
It would be nice to do.
Even if it was only a shareware interpretation of the game. The
original ran on 8 bit computers -- no significant CPU cost at all in
current terms. The graphics were minimal. It wouldn't take much to
make it work on a modern system (assuming you had the code)
It had a *lot* of nice roleplaying elements in it as well. It
wasn't just vehicle combat, but strategic management as well. Do you
search for more vehicles or supplies, or move on to a new area? Do
you dare hit an oil field (excellent for filling a tanker if you had
one), knowing the casualities will be high? But winning means a
better reputation, but it also means that friends of the group you
beat might dislike you.
But it was the vehicle combat that made it very good. You had to
worry about the health of drivers and gunners, lots of kinds of
vehicle damage, and even things like trying to turn too fast and
rolling over or spinning out. You could do "Mad Max" moves like
having people jump from one vehicle to another, and doing other things
to capture rather than destroy vehicles (often, very precious, because
replacement parts are just about non-existent).
--
*-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/mach7/>
*Task Force Games* <http://www.task-force-games.com>
*Starfire Design Studio* <http://www.starfiredesign.com/>
*Graphic Reflections and Websites* <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/>
Stormcloud Creations
> >These were relatively pleasant little rpg/strategy hybrids by SSI
> >back in the 80s. It was set in a mad max post-apocalyptic world,
> >and a large part of the game was spent in the car battles which
> >were done in a standard turn-based strategy way.
>
> Yes, it was a very nice game. SSI always did do some very fine
> strategy games.
Until the "market" ate them up, similar to the fate of Microprose. It's
really tough to publish solid, well-developed strategy titles anymore,
without heavy hype or an RTS game (or junky Deer Hunting games, or similar
stuff) to carry you in the meantime. SSI also started to get a bit lazy in
their later years (like Microprose). Still, I miss MP and SSI's solid game
productions, and attention to detail.
Derek
Stormcloud Creations
http://www.stormcloudcreations.com
Chris Proctor
@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>:
Is the game you're talking about the card game, or a pocket version of the
tabletop game?
Chris
Jeffery S. Jones
The tabletop boardgame. The original release of Car Wars came in a
box which you could literally fit into a shirt pocket. Later on it
got bigger rulebooks and pieces (not so much more rules at first, but
the print was larger and easier to read).
Roadwar 2000 used somewhat similar mechanics for its combat.
There was also a Car Wars computer game (at least one -- Autoduel).
It was real time arcadish action, but the underlying mechanics were
similar to Car Wars. But action games work when driving one car, not
many cars.
Of course, if we go into action games, there are no end of armed
street car games, with Interstate '76 (and its sequels) being a fine
example of the sort.
But those aren't strategy games. Car Wars, for being supposedly
just a fun little game about Mad Max sorts of fights with armed street
vehicles rather than the usual military stuff in wargames, was done
very well.
Richard Hutnik
> >Are there other games that use this system? (Would anyone please
> >want to make a remake of Roadwar 2000 into a full-blown strategy
> >game?)
> >
>
> There was a freeware game a few years back, I think it was called "circa 2080" or something
> like that. In it, the vehicles performed like you describe, taking a while to get up to speed
> and then having to slow down to make a sharp turn. I think this is also done in Combat
> mission, but I only played the demo when it came out.
is now, "The War Engine". That game is available from Shrapnel I
believe.
... SNIP ...
- Richard Hutnik
Chris Proctor
<3c64973d$0$1598$272e...@news.execpc.com>:
>On Sat, 09 Feb 2002 01:01:23 GMT, chris_...@hotmail.com (Chris
>Proctor) wrote:
>
>>cprossthe...@attbi.com (Clint Pross) wrote in
>><qdw88.6399$bh3.86366 @rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>:
>>
>>>"Chris Proctor" <chris_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:91AFCA58chrisp...@61.9.128.12...
>>>> ro...@fede2.intra.tumsan.fi (Fred Orispää) wrote in <a3trug$nfr$1
>>>> @tron.sci.fi>:
>>>>
>>>> <snip interesting discussion>
>>>>
>>>> Sounds a lot like Car Wars, by Steve Jackson games. I've always
>>>> wanted a computer game version!
>>>
>>>Same here! FWIW, the Steve Jackson title (the "pocket" game) actually
>>>seemed to model turning and accelerating and wiping out pretty damn
>>>"realistically" (but what did I know, I was 16 or so).
>>
>>Is the game you're talking about the card game, or a pocket version of
>>the tabletop game?
>
> The tabletop boardgame. The original release of Car Wars came in a
>box which you could literally fit into a shirt pocket. Later on it
>got bigger rulebooks and pieces (not so much more rules at first, but
>the print was larger and easier to read).
Coincidentally, I picked up Car Wars Classic today.
Must be a similar thing, one big folding map, a bunch of car/cycle tokens
and a fairly thick rulebook in a small box.
Pretty cheap, too: $9AUD (~$5USD).
Good deal ;-)
Chris