BOTF: No More Patches
JvG
people reacted to the first patch so they won't do a second one.
Er.. since when has this become an excuse for not patching a game? I don't
think it's the consumer's fault that people are dissatisfied with
several elements of the game and the various bugs which still remain unfixed
even after the first patch.
I hope MP isn't setting a trend here with their "don't like it, go f*ck
yourself" attitude.
MadAsHell
TDawg 4:29 pm CST
From several of my sources inside of Microprose, I bring you this news.
It does not look good for another patch from Microprose. The public has
yet again bashed them for not doing good enough. I remember this
happening before about the release date issues of BotF. So by everyone
bickering at Microprose, we have lost almost all chance for another
patch. From what my contacts tell me, the only way there will be another
patch is if there is a serious bug. There will probably be no gameplay
patch, and no other tiny bug patches. And we only have ourselves to thank
for this. We could have been more appreciative of them for getting out
the best Trek game to date. But those are the breaks.
So in recap, don't expect any patches from Microprose on BotF in the
future.
<============== End Paste =================>
This is without a doubt the SORRIEST line of crap I have ever heard!!
These bozo's above our blaming the CONSUMER for the company putting out a
sorry piece of unplayable garbage! Because we didn't kiss Microproses
collective asses about the patch which did more damage than the original
unpatched game, which was and still is unplayable for a good many of us,
WE are being punished by Microprose???
2 months that game sat on a shelf because I couldn't play it in it's
present state. Finally a patch comes out and we are supposed to bow down
and bask in the light of Microproses favors for a patch that increased
the original problem?
Nowhere but in the software industry would the consumer be expected to be
treated like THEY are the ones responsible for an inferior product, and
that is because you have morons like the above author who believes that
is the way of things. That kind of thinking is what gets you substandard
garbage and prima donna developers who think "How dare you! for even
thinking of criticizing us!"
Microprose? You can stick your company and its products in whatever
orifice of your choosing. You are a non-entity as far as I am concerned
from now on. How dare you blame the consumer for your failings! If you
don't know how to develop playable products, then perhaps you should go
into another business.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"When we have three failures in a row
in any system...something is not right."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Brigadier General Randy Starbuck
Rob
believe they are now on a list with Sierra?
-Rob
JvG wrote in message ...
GrahamFife
>yourself" attitude.
>
More like "we've taken the money, now go f*** yourself".
JvG
>More like "we've taken the money, now go f*** yourself".
That's somewhat more accurate, yeah. :)
L'Empereur
merely the product of the imagination of some frustrated gamer?
If it is indeed true MPS will indeed be blacklisted, by quite a few
gamers.. I for one am really getting sick
of their behaviour and poor / overhyped games.. they haven't made anything
really decent in years.
Nappy
Dave Roy
jea...@nospam.dds.nl (JvG) saying:
>According to a report on botf.trekgaming.com, Microprose didn't like the way
>people reacted to the first patch so they won't do a second one.
>
>Er.. since when has this become an excuse for not patching a game? I don't
>think it's the consumer's fault that people are dissatisfied with
>several elements of the game and the various bugs which still remain unfixed
>even after the first patch.
>
>I hope MP isn't setting a trend here with their "don't like it, go f*ck
>yourself" attitude.
They've already cost themselves one sale with this attitude, and I
have to wonder how many other people reading this newsgroup feel the
same way I do.
I heard so much good about this game, and then I saw the posts on this
newsgroup saying what a piece of trash it is. Then, I decided to wait
for the patch, and see what people said. It comes out, and it's
worse? And finally, this attitude about no further patches just takes
the cake. I'm going to be taking the money I would have spent on this
game and go spend it on something much more satisfying.
Dave Roy
Christoph Nahr
>Well, wipe them off my developer\distributor automatic buy list. I can't
>believe they are now on a list with Sierra?
Sierra makes (or publishes) actually rather decent games these days.
Microprose has been on my shit list for some time now, next to Take 2.
I made an exception for Birth of the Federation... stupid me.
--
Chris Nahr (christo...@uumail.xxde, remove xx to reply by e-mail)
Visit http://uuhome.de/christoph.nahr/ for Might & Magic information
and Star Chess, a strategy game with source code and AI documentation
Please reply either on Usenet or by e-mail but not both!
Nich Hills
I bought the game assuming, as with other Microprose 4X SF/fantasy
games, that there would soon be a 1.3.1 patch that would make everything
bearable.
I guess the wait in getting the first patch out was a bad sign ... :-(
OTOH most of the complaints about the game seem to come from bad design
decisions, rather than bugs per se - these things are more often fixed
in a 'Version 2' rather than a patch. :-( Of course, with Microprose's
ST licence expiring, there never will be a Version 2. :-(
Cheers,
Nich
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Nich Hills Email: nhi...@ActOnline.com.au
-----------------------------------------------------------
Christopher E. Johnson
says...
> I made an exception for Birth of the Federation... stupid me.
>
>
sidgames.com where Steve himself says that there will be a second patch.
If, in fact, this is not true then there needs to be some official word
that there will not be a second patch. If this happens I will join the
chorus of boos <g>. Until then, I am not quite willing to take the word
of a friend of a friend...I need some more verification of this rumor.
Chris
--
Assistant Editor
PC Sports Daily
www.pcsportsdaily.com
JvG
>The only "official" word about any second patch that I have seen is on
>sidgames.com where Steve himself says that there will be a second patch.
I don't think he ever did, this is what Steve wrote to me in an email
two weeks ago after I asked him if there would be a second patch:
"As to the second patch, I really don't know at the moment. All I know is
that the entire team is pretty much burned out and needs to take some time
off. My guess is that we'll keep an eye on the boards and make the decision
later. Of course that also depends on if any of the team get transfered to
other projects too. In other words, I don't know."
Bill Lambrukos
that the entire team is pretty much burned out and needs to take some time
off. My guess is that we'll keep an eye on the boards and make the decision
later. Of course that also depends on if any of the team get transfered to
other projects too. In other words, I don't know."<<
"Burned out", my god, what an overused excuse for not working. Hey guys,
you do this for a living, not doing it well does not justify the excuse (and
that's all it is) of "burned out".
Bill
Charles R
love that Software Etc. return policy.
C
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Ben Parrish
>"Burned out", my god, what an overused excuse for not working. Hey guys,
>you do this for a living, not doing it well does not justify the excuse
(and
>that's all it is) of "burned out".
They wrote the game. They put it on the shelves. YOU bought it.
Caveat friggin' emptor.
L'Empereur
> "Burned out", my god, what an overused excuse for not working. Hey
guys,
> you do this for a living, not doing it well does not justify the excuse
(and
> that's all it is) of "burned out".
>
>
I don't think that is quite fair though.. most software developers tend to
go through
quite a work frenzy at anytime a project nears completion (talking 60-70
weeks ++),
even outside the games industry its not uncommon for some employers to give
employees some
downtime after a project completion. Now, I agree BOTF was (but could have
been and still could be)
not a very well designed game.. a half dozen or so additional tweka scould
have solved that
as well as several really bad bugs. Yet given that MPS has done Falcon 4.0
(+patch), RCT, BOTF
Civ2 TOT, MW3, at least in the past 3-4 months alone.. thers probably quite
few burned souls. the
lesson here is less quantity more quality is better..hope you're listening
MPS.. look at Firaxis..
only a game year basically and they're quite good and PATCHED up to 3-4
times w/ enhancements!
Nappy
Rob
>Sierra makes (or publishes) actually rather decent games these days.
>Microprose has been on my shit list for some time now, next to Take 2.
>I made an exception for Birth of the Federation... stupid me.
Duh...I mean publisher :-) Last game I bought (before they became
Hasbro)from Microprose was Mechcommander and that was pretty clean, not the
greatest game though. Last game I bought from Sierra was Lords of Magic, so
perhaps you understand my dislike of them :-)
Musashi
mongering. This report is unverified and unreliable.
musashi
L'Empereur
Rob <vad...@sprint.ca> wrote in article
<snlr3.54645$jl.35...@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>...
Sierra as a publisher has areal hit miss record.. now from my end i've had
Half Life (Valve) and caesar III (Impressions). both great games.. my view
is if its PUBLISHED
by sierra but done by an outside developer.. its a possiblity it may be
good (thgis goes for all published IMHo).. look at EA.. i'm not their
fan.. but they did publish Alpha Centauri (but FIRAXIS developed it)
If its in-house. or a developer of notorious repute.. then careful!.
Microprose .. from hence forth i'd like to kick the tires quite vigourously
now before even considering them.. a sad testament when year ago
i would buy them off teh rack no question.. now that is reserved only
for Firaxis
Nappy
L'Empereur
Ben Parrish <bpar...@remove.pacifier.com> wrote in article
<37add...@news.pacifier.com>...
> Bill Lambrukos wrote in message ...
> >"Burned out", my god, what an overused excuse for not working. Hey
guys,
> >you do this for a living, not doing it well does not justify the excuse
> (and
> >that's all it is) of "burned out".
>
> They wrote the game. They put it on the shelves. YOU bought it.
>
> Caveat friggin' emptor.
Now that is also a bit too simplistic from the other end.. are you then
implying that if one buys a product that is defective that is ones tough
luck
no whey 'ho's eye! By that logic no-one would then ever make anything
anywhere useable.. buy a car.. cracked engine- your tough luck!
I think there is aseriosu limit as to how far an eductaed a consumer can
get about a product
.. geez next thing you'll be telling us is that the full code shoudl be
listed on the box
(in NTR .0001 font) so we can see any bugs.. perhaps that also means we all
need to be
mechanics, tailors, chefs, builders, dentists.. I don't think that is
feasible.
If a product fails to deliver its fualty and the fault is with the maker
and not the buyer.. how in the
name of god am i supposed to tell whether or not something sitting ona
shelf is crappy inside a box
.. oops i fogot you.. have your x-ray glasses.. well for the rest of us..
who do not..
One final logic.. does that mean that the folks who bough cyanide laced
tylenol in Chicago back
in the ealy 80s are resposible for their own death??.. hey The killer put
it on the shelf
they BOUGHT IT.. too bad.. :)
(sick humour but that is what mr. parrish here seems to be implying)
Naps
Rob
>>
>Sierra as a publisher has areal hit miss record.. now from my end i've had
>Half Life (Valve) and caesar III (Impressions). both great games.. my view
>is if its PUBLISHED
>by sierra but done by an outside developer.. its a possiblity it may be
>good (thgis goes for all published IMHo).. look at EA.. i'm not their
>fan.. but they did publish Alpha Centauri (but FIRAXIS developed it)
>
>If its in-house. or a developer of notorious repute.. then careful!.
>
>Microprose .. from hence forth i'd like to kick the tires quite vigourously
>now before even considering them.. a sad testament when year ago
>i would buy them off teh rack no question.. now that is reserved only
>for Firaxis
>
>Nappy
I know they published Half-Life, which is an excellent game in my opinion,
but that does not make up for the fact that they rush certain developers.
That's pretty much what they did with Impressions and Lords of Magic.
They seem to have a higher ratio than other developers.
I agree with you about Firaxis, I like developers that continue to improve
their product.
-Rob
Musashi
Christopher E. Johnson
jea...@nospam.dds.nl says...
> I don't think he ever did, this is what Steve wrote to me in an email
> two weeks ago after I asked him if there would be a second patch:
>
>
>
thread at sidgames.com about the patch problems that Steve said that
there would be a second patch. I'll have to go over there and read their
reaction to this latest news (hee, hee).
sum...@mediaone.net
>In article, john...@sprintmail.com (Christopher E. Johnson) wrote:
>
>>The only "official" word about any second patch that I have seen is on
>>sidgames.com where Steve himself says that there will be a second patch.
>
>I don't think he ever did, this is what Steve wrote to me in an email
>two weeks ago after I asked him if there would be a second patch:
>
>"As to the second patch, I really don't know at the moment. All I know is
>that the entire team is pretty much burned out and needs to take some time
>off. My guess is that we'll keep an eye on the boards and make the decision
>later. Of course that also depends on if any of the team get transfered to
>other projects too. In other words, I don't know."
Burned out??! When BOTF hit the streets, the entire team, except for
1-2 guys was on vacation according to the Microprose guy who posted to
this newsgroup. Now after taking 2 months for a patch that should
have taken a week they're burned out?!
Rich Goranson
>decisions, rather than bugs per se - these things are more often fixed
>in a 'Version 2' rather than a patch. :-( Of course, with Microprose's
>ST licence expiring, there never will be a Version 2. :-(
>
If this is the caliber of game they can produce I would hope that Paramount
would not renew their licence and find a competent design staff...like
Interplay.
I've been very harsh on Interplay in the past and they are on my "not buy" list
because of a shoddy product (Conquest of the New World) and shoddy customer
service (Fragile Allegiance). Perhaps they got the message with Star Fleet
Command. I shall wait until it actually hits the shelves.
BOTF was a huge disappointment. It could have been so much better with just a
small amount of effort and forethought...
Rich Goranson (Lord Stephan Calvert deGrey)
Buffalo, NY (Barony of the Rhydderich Hael, Æthelmearc)
Diplomacy addict, F&E guru, Expos fan and medieval re-creationist
"I could have conquered Europe, all of it, but I had women in my life." - Henry
II
JvG
forl...@aol.complex (Rich Goranson) wrote:
>If this is the caliber of game they can produce I would hope that Paramount
>would not renew their licence and find a competent design staff...like
>Interplay.
Activision now holds the license.
richar...@hotmail.com
"Rob" <vad...@sprint.ca> wrote:
> Well, wipe them off my developer\distributor automatic buy list. I
can't
> believe they are now on a list with Sierra?
>
I think it is absurd to have a game publisher on a list from whom you
automatically buy a game title from (I assume automatic buy means to buy
without waiting for game reviews and before the first patch is out).
Today, publishers are like film studios. Would you watch a film because
it is a Warner Bros. film?
If you are going to have an automatic buy list, have one of development
teams, and team members, not publishers.
Even then, you may still get a title that is not of interest to play,
eventhough the developer puts out good stuff. I have immense respect
for SMG and SMAC, but neither one holds my interest much now. Ack, I
feel like a heretic saying I don't care to play Sid's 2 latest gems much
=).
Oh, did I add the flakiness of PC hardware also to the mix, where a good
title may not work on your box.
- Richard Hutnik
Visit DocReason's Strategy HQ for free games, reviews, and
support and opponent finding for obscure/orphan games at:
http://www.geocities.com/timessquare/fortress/7537/
Rob
>I think it is absurd to have a game publisher on a list from whom you
>automatically buy a game title from (I assume automatic buy means to buy
>without waiting for game reviews and before the first patch is out).
>Today, publishers are like film studios. Would you watch a film because
>it is a Warner Bros. film?
>
>If you are going to have an automatic buy list, have one of development
>teams, and team members, not publishers.
>
>Even then, you may still get a title that is not of interest to play,
>eventhough the developer puts out good stuff. I have immense respect
>for SMG and SMAC, but neither one holds my interest much now. Ack, I
>feel like a heretic saying I don't care to play Sid's 2 latest gems much
>=).
>
>Oh, did I add the flakiness of PC hardware also to the mix, where a good
>title may not work on your box.
>
>- Richard Hutnik
Microprose the developer\publisher (of course Simtex is included) has
produced three of my all time favorite games.........X-com, MOM, and of
course MOO.
I'm in denial that they can put out shit, ok ? :-)
Add to the mix Colonization and Civilization and pretty much everything that
they released many moons ago was enjoyable.
I think you know what I was getting at; when Microprose(Simtex) was
putting out in the early 90's the game may have had bugs, but it was still a
fun game.Now their games not only have game stopping bugs, but serious
design flaws that take away from their enjoyment.
Microprose was LucasFilm when it was putting out some of its classics, not
Warner.
So I'll refrase my statement for you......Automatic consider list ? :-)
**remove to email**
wrote:
>>OTOH most of the complaints about the game seem to come from bad design
>>decisions, rather than bugs per se - these things are more often fixed
>>in a 'Version 2' rather than a patch. :-( Of course, with Microprose's
>>ST licence expiring, there never will be a Version 2. :-(
>>
>
>If this is the caliber of game they can produce I would hope that Paramount
>would not renew their licence and find a competent design staff...like
>Interplay.
>
>I've been very harsh on Interplay in the past and they are on my "not buy" list
>because of a shoddy product (Conquest of the New World)
What did you find shoddy about this game? I don't remember any
significant problems . . . I liked it.
Grifman
JvG
>What did you find shoddy about this game? I don't remember any
>significant problems . . . I liked it.
C'mon Grif, you only need to visit Sidgames to get a sample of what people
don't like about the game and what problems they're having.
**remove to email**
Really?! They're discussing Conquest of the New World, a game that
first came out several years ago at Sidgames? I think not. :)
Please reread. The previous poster said that he found CotNW shoddy.
That is the game I am referring to.
Grifman
JvG
>Really?! They're discussing Conquest of the New World, a game that
>first came out several years ago at Sidgames? I think not. :)
>
>Please reread. The previous poster said that he found CotNW shoddy.
>That is the game I am referring to.
Oops! <slaps himself a few times>
Bill Lambrukos
Caveat friggin' emptor.<<
I guess there is suppose to be a point here that was relevent to the post,
but I can't find it ?!?
Bill
Bill Lambrukos
go through
quite a work frenzy at anytime a project nears completion (talking 60-70
weeks ++),
even outside the games industry its not uncommon for some employers to give
employees some
downtime after a project completion. Now, I agree BOTF was (but could have
been and still could be)
not a very well designed game.. a half dozen or so additional tweka scould
have solved that
as well as several really bad bugs. Yet given that MPS has done Falcon 4.0
(+patch), RCT, BOTF
Civ2 TOT, MW3, at least in the past 3-4 months alone.. thers probably quite
few burned souls. the
lesson here is less quantity more quality is better..hope you're listening
MPS.. look at Firaxis..
only a game year basically and they're quite good and PATCHED up to 3-4
times w/ enhancements!
Nappy<<
My problem with the Nappy is that you just described "work". Kids at
McDonalds are cooking thousands of hamburders and working 12 hour days (god
knows I did as a kid). Many adults work 12 hour days and on the weekends
too. That's work. "Burned out" just doesn't do it for me, its an excuse.
IMHO.
Bill
Bill Lambrukos
small amount of effort and forethought...<<
Isn't it amazing how many games we find ourselves saying that about today.
It's really a sad statement as to the quality of many games.
Bill
richar...@hotmail.com
"Rob" <vad...@sprint.ca> wrote:
> Microprose the developer\publisher (of course Simtex is included) has
> produced three of my all time favorite games.........X-com, MOM, and
of
> course MOO.
> I'm in denial that they can put out shit, ok ? :-)
I think what you just said touched on why my point is valid. The
day of the developer/publisher is gone. The industry has gotten much
larger, to the place where, except in rare occation, the publisher is
no longer the developer, but hires developers to put games out. This
is similar to the movie studios. Microprose/Hasbro doesn't develop
games anymore really.
> Add to the mix Colonization and Civilization and pretty much
everything that
> they released many moons ago was enjoyable.
Hmm... you listed SimTex and Sid Meiers as the list of favorite game
producers.
> I think you know what I was getting at; when Microprose(Simtex) was
> putting out in the early 90's the game may have had bugs, but it was
still a
> fun game.Now their games not only have game stopping bugs, but serious
> design flaws that take away from their enjoyment.
The thing is that Microprose is merely a marketing shell for
different game developers. The times have changed. A publisher used
to be the development team. Things changes so now the publisher is a
marketing arm.
> Microprose was LucasFilm when it was putting out some of its
classics, not
> Warner.
The interesting thing about LucasArts(aka LucasFilms) is that they
are still developing games. The developers aren't at war with the
publishers, so there isn't the typical rush publishers put on their
developers. Their games are usually generally of high quality. The
only games considered not good are strategy games (Afterlife and
Rebellion), which interestingly enough were developed by an outside
development team (I know Rebellion was. I think Afterlife was also).
> So I'll refrase my statement for you......Automatic consider list
? :-)
>
Well, again, I think automatically consider doesn't even work. The
only titles I think should be automatically consider are titles that
are of interest, which are by developers you know are good coders.
sum...@mediaone.net
><snipped my absurd comment>
>
>
>>I think it is absurd to have a game publisher on a list from whom you
>>automatically buy a game title from (I assume automatic buy means to buy
>>without waiting for game reviews and before the first patch is out).
>>Today, publishers are like film studios. Would you watch a film because
>>it is a Warner Bros. film?
>>
>>If you are going to have an automatic buy list, have one of development
>>teams, and team members, not publishers.
>>
>>Even then, you may still get a title that is not of interest to play,
>>eventhough the developer puts out good stuff. I have immense respect
>>for SMG and SMAC, but neither one holds my interest much now. Ack, I
>>feel like a heretic saying I don't care to play Sid's 2 latest gems much
>>=).
>>
>>Oh, did I add the flakiness of PC hardware also to the mix, where a good
>>title may not work on your box.
>>
>>- Richard Hutnik
>
>
>Microprose the developer\publisher (of course Simtex is included) has
>produced three of my all time favorite games.........X-com, MOM, and of
>course MOO.
>I'm in denial that they can put out shit, ok ? :-)
I think you have to realize that people put out games, while
corporations are pieces of paper that employ people. Many of the
people that made your favorite games are still around at different
companies. Although the simtex team died during the agents of justice
fiasco(casting a shadow on their desire to develop games).
Compare it to baseball. Miami won the 97 world series but by June of
98, they had traded 7 of the 9 starters and many other significant
players. Now the team cant play worth a darn.
>
>Add to the mix Colonization and Civilization and pretty much everything that
>they released many moons ago was enjoyable.
>
> I think you know what I was getting at; when Microprose(Simtex) was
>putting out in the early 90's the game may have had bugs, but it was still a
>fun game.Now their games not only have game stopping bugs, but serious
>design flaws that take away from their enjoyment.
>
>Microprose was LucasFilm when it was putting out some of its classics, not
>Warner.
>
L'Empereur
> My problem with the Nappy is that you just described "work". Kids at
> McDonalds are cooking thousands of hamburders and working 12 hour days
(god
> knows I did as a kid). Many adults work 12 hour days and on the weekends
> too. That's work. "Burned out" just doesn't do it for me, its an
excuse.
> IMHO.
>
> Bill
>
being
a professional fry-guy.. Of course not.. most people work 3 montsh at MCD's
and quit
hence the turn around.. among any industry's worst. People do get burned
out.. and I think your
allusion that ist just an excuse for laziness is wrong.. Don't try to tell
me those folsk working 12
hour days and weekends . don't need a breather.. I know how programmers
(and other IT folks
) can get stuck in short periods of 80 hour weeks.. and if you don't give
thema break every once
in a while they may not be around or their products will be worse. Imagine
doing a job that would
be the equivalent of cramming for finals EVERYDAY for 2-3 weeks at a
stretch.. you need a break i'll
bet.
Even peoplw who "work", get vacations don't they.. or are you so puritan
that you think vacations
are for sissies?
Naps
WLambrukos
>being
>a professional fry-guy..<<
Not liking a job is not the same as "burnt out". Are you suggesting these guys
are never going to program another game ?
I still don't buy it, it is, IMHO, bullshit.
Bill
L'Empereur
WLambrukos <wlamb...@aol.comBill> wrote in article
<19990810131759...@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
> >Why do you think few make a career out of MacDonalds then.. ever
consider
> >being
> >a professional fry-guy..<<
>
> Not liking a job is not the same as "burnt out". Are you suggesting
these guys
> are never going to program another game ?
>
NO they just need some time to recharge.. What may I ask is your def'n then
of burn't out.. dead?
Naps
Bill Lambrukos
then
of burn't out.. dead?<<
Oh Nappy, you are hopeless, you can't even keep your thoughts straight. Go
back and read the original post. Come back and discuss it when you get out
of high school, until then, you'll never get it. Heavens, just because you
disagree with me there is no reason to be disagreeable. However, since you
want to be, I'll treat you like a child. We'll discuss it when you have
some experience under your belt.
L'Empereur
Bill Lambrukos <hel...@mediaone.net> wrote in article
<Um2s3.11798$W11.2...@wbnws01.ne.mediaone.net>...
Yawwn... hopeless.. childish.. my my aren't we trollish.. I find that those
folks who cannot but name call are but what they call others, it is a well
known psychological trait that we accuse others of what we ourselves
fear the most.. you must indeed hate being called a child and a dummy.
All mughty sage thatyou are.. deflecting you non-existant argument by not
answering
the question. yes oh deity of omniscience.. i have read your previous
defecations
and their volume speaks of greatly of its own volume.
In the future.. .. just a freindly tip.. Answer the question please.
So I leave you to your sandbox, little one.
(*pat *pat)
Naps
(Gee Dr. Bill you medicine tastes good. No?)