DK -- Dark Mistress "controversy"
cbar...@sprintmail.com
All right, I wasn't going to bring this issue to the
newsgroup, but after one private inquiry I still would like
more feedback, so . . . oh well, let the debate begin. . .
Is anyone catching hell (not necessarily directly, but at
least via an attack on the game content) from their
girlfriends or spouses after they see the Dark Mistress
stuff in DK? Here's my situation: my girlfriend bought the
game for me (she's up where there's an Electronics
Boutique). She opens the manual after I had made some funny
(what I thought was funny) remark about looking forward to
spanking the Dark Mistress (yeah, I know). Then she reads
the monster description, which I guess says something like
"she likes to get slapped around" (or "slapping makes her
happy" or something).
Anyway, next thing I know, my GF's really pissed and talking
about how this kind of stuff supports some people's
permissive attitude toward sexual violence and/or more
subtle coercive behavior by *some* men against women (groan
. . after two years of waiting for DK in eager
anticipation).
Note, all this is without even having seen the actual game
scene (neither of us will until mid-month) -- just reading
the manual at this point.
My first reaction was, "get a sense of humor" (free
relationship tip: if in this situation, don't say that if
you don't want real trouble). My position is still that "of
course it's outrageous" if the Mistress looks pretty close
to human, but that's why it's funny (twisted humor,
because of course the viewer wouldn't really do that). I do
wish they had picked different language in the manual, and
like I say I don't know what the scene really is in the
torture chamber. Can I get detailed descriptions?
Seriously. I thought twisted humor was a pretty clear goal,
but my GF insists that this kind of content ("kinky" scenes
involving physical force against women or monsters closely
resembling women) has no place even in humor, regardless of
the mindset of the viewer. She may have a point, re:
this stuff influencing some sexually aggressive/coercive
people out there (and we know they exist). But I also worry
about censorship, and there may be relatively few clear
lines that can be drawn re: censorship. Well? What do
people think about this? I'd appreciate it if people
responding try to be objective about it and address the
merits (I know it's easy to dismiss or laugh off at first; I
did myself).
Cap'n Bludd
cbar...@sprintmail.com wrote:
>My first reaction was, "get a sense of humor" (free
>relationship tip: if in this situation, don't say that if
>you don't want real trouble). My position is still that "of
>course it's outrageous" if the Mistress looks pretty close
>to human, but that's why it's funny (twisted humor,
>because of course the viewer wouldn't really do that). I do
>wish they had picked different language in the manual, and
>like I say I don't know what the scene really is in the
>torture chamber. Can I get detailed descriptions?
>Seriously. I thought twisted humor was a pretty clear goal,
>but my GF insists that this kind of content ("kinky" scenes
>involving physical force against women or monsters closely
>resembling women) has no place even in humor, regardless of
>the mindset of the viewer. She may have a point, re:
>this stuff influencing some sexually aggressive/coercive
>people out there (and we know they exist). But I also worry
>about censorship, and there may be relatively few clear
>lines that can be drawn re: censorship. Well? What do
>people think about this? I'd appreciate it if people
>responding try to be objective about it and address the
>merits (I know it's easy to dismiss or laugh off at first; I
>did myself).
The Dark Mistress is pretty amusing. She gets on hands and knees and
the torturer whips her butt. The first time I noticed the cries of
(pleasure?) coming from the speakers I went hunting to see what it
was, and there she was on the torture table having a good old time.
Tell your girlfriend to relax and look at it this way, the dark
mistress treats torture that is capable of killing or turning any of
the male characters in the game into traitors to their cause as a
little pick me up. Doesn't that make a statement to the power of
woman?
Besides, it's a hoot to see her enjoying herself while all around her,
captured enemies are turning into ghosts.
Cap'n Bludd
cpnb...@pipeline.com
capn...@aol.com
http://www.pipeline.com/~cpnbludd
The probability of someone watching you is directly
proportional to the stupidity of your actions....
Victor A. Danilchenko
In forest deep, where dark things sleep, cbar...@sprintmail.com penned
this in one fell sweep:
>All right, I wasn't going to bring this issue to the
>newsgroup, but after one private inquiry I still would like
>more feedback, so . . . oh well, let the debate begin. . .
>
>Is anyone catching hell (not necessarily directly, but at
>least via an attack on the game content) from their
>girlfriends or spouses after they see the Dark Mistress
>stuff in DK?
<snip>
I dunno, I told my wife, and she laughed -- in fact, she wabted to see
the Dark Misstress getting whipped...
<snipppp>
--
Victor A. Danilchenko
min...@ix.netcom.com (home)
dani...@evermore.cs.umass.edu (college)
http://www.cs.umass.edu/~danilche
Rollo the Talking Dragon
The dark mistress is clearly a parody of a dominatrix. There are females
and males in OUR society who recieve sexual gratification through pain and
torture. S&M. Bullfrog was clearly just having a bit of fun with this
stereotype. On the other hand, I can see how a woman may be offended by
this sort of thing. Next time maybe bullfrog will include a male
counterpart to the Dark Mistress. Until then I will refrain from spanking
the Mistress! I would'nt want my girlfriend to catch me :)Besides its more
fun shooting lightining bolts at the enemy dwarves!
Rollo the Talking Dragon
> Is anyone catching hell (not necessarily directly, but at
> least via an attack on the game content) from their
> girlfriends or spouses after they see the Dark Mistress
> stuff in DK? Here's my situation: my girlfriend bought the
> game for me (she's up where there's an Electronics
> Boutique). She opens the manual after I had made some funny
> (what I thought was funny) remark about looking forward to
> spanking the Dark Mistress (yeah, I know). Then she reads
> the monster description, which I guess says something like
> "she likes to get slapped around" (or "slapping makes her
> happy" or something).
>
> Anyway, next thing I know, my GF's really pissed and talking
> about how this kind of stuff supports some people's
> permissive attitude toward sexual violence and/or more
> subtle coercive behavior by *some* men against women (groan
> . . after two years of waiting for DK in eager
> anticipation).
>
> Note, all this is without even having seen the actual game
> scene (neither of us will until mid-month) -- just reading
> the manual at this point.
>
scott
> I dunno, I told my wife, and she laughed -- in fact, she wabted to see
> the Dark Misstress getting whipped...
Make sure you watch it from the first person perspective :))
** SCOTT **
dav...@mci2000.com
<<SNIP>>
> I dunno, I told my wife, and she laughed -- in fact, she wabted to see
>the Dark Misstress getting whipped...
Well, that sounds like a hint if a ever heard one. :-)
David
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Jennifer Schlickbernd
In article <5pr8m0$p...@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>, cbar...@sprintmail.com
says...
> All right, I wasn't going to bring this issue to the
> newsgroup, but after one private inquiry I still would like
> more feedback, so . . . oh well, let the debate begin. . .
>
Well, I'm a woman and I'm playing the game. It doesn't bother me for
adult entertainment on a computer screen. However, I do not allow my kid
to see it, as it he is only 6, and the entire concept is just too tough
to explain.
Did she see the movie High Anxiety? Same difference, both mediums are
making fun of S&M, IMO. I thought High Anxiety was funny, and I think
this is funny. Neither is for kids though.
Jennifer
Rob Laddish
cbar...@sprintmail.com wrote:
: Is anyone catching hell (not necessarily directly, but at
: girlfriends or spouses after they see the Dark Mistress
: stuff in DK?
It's my experience that some people will be offended at anything.
The DK box looks like it could offend lots of religous types.
(not a problem for me - more like a plus :-) I'd suggest listening
to her and let her have her say, then enjoy playing the game!!
Godd luck,
Rob
Dino Fancellu
Mmmm. No offence meant but...
How old is she? Sounds like she might want to do a
bit of mellowing.
Its ok to hit/kill men but not women? Eh? That is sexist.
If we are going to be evil fucks, i.e. the Dungeon Keeper,
I think its a bit odd to start complaining about violence to
women.
How about violence to chickens? Or Imps. Or Heroes?
Its a sick game. If she can't accept that evil plays no
favourites then she should really look away.
I know, let's have DK, but with a special concern for the
whales and the ozone lair.
If I think all violence is immoral can I look down on her
for even thinking any violence is ok. The fact that she supports
the use of violence in any situation only goes on to
validate its use against women as morally acceptable tool
of oppression by the patriacal oligarchy. Right on sisters.
Dino.
Ben Robinson
On Mon, 07 Jul 1997 17:23:42 GMT, cbar...@sprintmail.com wrote:
>All right, I wasn't going to bring this issue to the
>newsgroup, but after one private inquiry I still would like
>more feedback, so . . . oh well, let the debate begin. . .
>
A lot of people like a bit of S&M in their sex lives and so what? My
girlfriend likes me to fuck her when she's tied up and gagged but it
doesn't mean I'm a rapist or she'd want to be raped. Nor does spanking
the Mistress (Beavis?), it's just a bit of fun.
Regards
Ben
slink
On Mon, 07 Jul 1997 11:51:33 -0700, scott <sco...@efn.org> wrote:
>> I dunno, I told my wife, and she laughed -- in fact, she wabted to see
>> the Dark Misstress getting whipped...
>
>Make sure you watch it from the first person perspective :))
>
>** SCOTT **
Tee-hee. I ddin't try that. I started avoiding the torture chamber
because my husband gave me funny looks every time he heard it on my
screen.
Sandra
slink
>In article <5pr8m0$p...@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>, cbar...@sprintmail.com
>says...
>> All right, I wasn't going to bring this issue to the
>> newsgroup, but after one private inquiry I still would like
>> more feedback, so . . . oh well, let the debate begin. . .
>>
>
>
>Well, I'm a woman and I'm playing the game. It doesn't bother me for
>adult entertainment on a computer screen. However, I do not allow my kid
>to see it, as it he is only 6, and the entire concept is just too tough
>to explain.
>
>Did she see the movie High Anxiety? Same difference, both mediums are
>making fun of S&M, IMO. I thought High Anxiety was funny, and I think
>this is funny. Neither is for kids though.
>
>Jennifer
I agree about the not-for-kids part. But the box *is* marked 17+. So
that's covered. My difference of opinion with the girlfriend in
question is that the whole game is shaky for kids. The concept of
"Evil is Good" is *not* something I would want a 6-year-old to come to
enjoy. Later on (how much later I can't guess) they should understand
acting out things like that in a harmless environment.
Sandra
Ted Doty
On Mon, 07 Jul 1997 17:23:42 GMT, cbar...@sprintmail.com wrote:
>Is anyone catching hell (not necessarily directly, but at
>least via an attack on the game content) from their
>girlfriends or spouses after they see the Dark Mistress
>stuff in DK?
I picked up the game Sunday (2 days ago), and find that I can't get
any computer time to play it, because my wife is playing it. What's
interesting is that she's not much of a gamer; I suspect that it's the
humor that pervades the game that keeps her interested. She thought
that the Dark Mistress idea was pretty funny.
Also, my 4 year old plays the game for the introduction. He restarts
over and over to get the video. Just as well, since I'm not sure that
I want him playing something like this *that* young.
Passing by the whole concept that the game is *entirely* politically
incorrect (subvert good lands to evil, ruin the inhabitant's lives,
torture/kill/sacrifice sentient beings), seems to me that *our*
opinions are more or less irrelevant to your Girl Friend. You'll have
to figure out this level on your own ...
(Sometimes the Real World can be facinating ...)
- Ted
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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6 Genesis Business Park, Albert Drive | fax: +44 (0)1 483 737 700
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The opinion expressed in this message is fictitious. Any resemblence to
real opinions, living or dead, is purely coincidental.
Ben
cbar...@sprintmail.com wrote:
I thought twisted humor was a pretty clear goal,
> but my GF insists that this kind of content ("kinky" scenes
> involving physical force against women or monsters closely
> resembling women) has no place even in humor, regardless of
> the mindset of the viewer. She may have a point, re:
> this stuff influencing some sexually aggressive/coercive
> people out there (and we know they exist). But I also worry
> about censorship, and there may be relatively few clear
> lines that can be drawn re: censorship. Well? What do
> people think about this? I'd appreciate it if people
> responding try to be objective about it and address the
> merits (I know it's easy to dismiss or laugh off at first; I
> did myself).
I have to agree with you- EVERYTHING has a place in humor. The ability
to laugh at ourselves is a sign of strength, not weakness. All humor is
likely to be potentially offensive to someone.
I get ticked when someone tells me "you shouldn't joke about that." Why
not? Are they implying that I am unable to discern between fantasy and
reality? I find that insulting.
My girlfriend, BTW, thinks the Dark Mistress is hilarious... as do I.
-Ben
Robert Music
Ben wrote:
(snip)
>
> I have to agree with you- EVERYTHING has a place in humor. The ability
> to laugh at ourselves is a sign of strength, not weakness. All humor is
> likely to be potentially offensive to someone.
>
> I get ticked when someone tells me "you shouldn't joke about that." Why
> not? Are they implying that I am unable to discern between fantasy and
> reality? I find that insulting.
>
> My girlfriend, BTW, thinks the Dark Mistress is hilarious... as do I.
>
> -Ben
I would be carfull about using the word 'Everything'. With that logic,
'jokes' that start with:"Did you hear the one about the Gypsy, the Rabbi
(sp?), and the Gas Chamber Operator?". Somethings are obsolutely off
limits and rightfully so. Laughing about yourself is OK, offensive
jokes about others CAN be 'out of bounds'. Be from me to stand on the
soap box, but saying, "It's Ok, it's only a joke" doesn't make it less
offensive. Ouch, I can feel the flames now.......Rob
Piemax
Well there's really not much in the game that marks you as the "evil"
side except the torture chamber and perhaps slapping the imps, is there?
Other than that it seems a straighforward realtime "us vs them" game on
the order of warcraft- again except for the dark mistresses its much
tamer graphically than Diablo.
So the "evil is good" isnt exactly pervasive, IMO. And since I too have
young children at home, I wish there was a "tame grahics/sound"
option. Speaking of which, I was very happy to read that Bethesda will
incorporate a child guard in Battlespire. Frankly even w/o kids I
probably would have used the child guard in Daggerfall- I kinda enjoy
the nudity in teh adult version, but I didn't care for the extra gore.
Pie
slink
On Tue, 08 Jul 1997 13:22:20 -0400, Piemax <obr...@ziplink.net>
wrote:
>slink wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:29:57 -0700, ga...@gte.net (Jennifer
>> Schlickbernd) wrote:
>>
>>. I thought High Anxiety was funny, and I think
>> >this is funny. Neither is for kids though.
>> >
>> >Jennifer
>>
>> I agree about the not-for-kids part. But the box *is* marked 17+. So
>> that's covered. My difference of opinion with the girlfriend in
>> question is that the whole game is shaky for kids. The concept of
>> "Evil is Good" is *not* something I would want a 6-year-old to come to
>> enjoy. Later on (how much later I can't guess) they should understand
>> acting out things like that in a harmless environment.
>>
>> Sandra
>
>Well there's really not much in the game that marks you as the "evil"
>side except the torture chamber and perhaps slapping the imps, is there?
It's on the front of the box. I agree that you don't have to play it
as "evil". You can avoid building the torture chamber, avoid slapping
your minions, and avoid making sacrifices to the Dark Gods. But would
a little kid understand where it stops? Evidently Bullfrog didn't
think so, and rated it accordingly.
>Other than that it seems a straighforward realtime "us vs them" game on
>the order of warcraft- again except for the dark mistresses its much
>tamer graphically than Diablo.
>
Yup. Except in Diablo you are fighting evil, and in DK you *are*
evil.
>So the "evil is good" isnt exactly pervasive, IMO. And since I too have
>young children at home, I wish there was a "tame grahics/sound"
>option. Speaking of which, I was very happy to read that Bethesda will
>incorporate a child guard in Battlespire. Frankly even w/o kids I
>probably would have used the child guard in Daggerfall- I kinda enjoy
>the nudity in teh adult version, but I didn't care for the extra gore.
>
I hope they include some nudity with the child guard. <grin> I'd
hate to have a guard against nothing but tomato juice.
> Pie
Sandra
SJones2247
>Is anyone catching hell (not necessarily directly, but at
>least via an attack on the game content) from their
>girlfriends or spouses after they see the Dark Mistress
>stuff in DK? Here's my situation: my girlfriend bought the
Not as much trouble as I was in when I played her the first song
on the new Prodigy album - it's called "Smack My Bitch Up" :)
That wasn't popular, I can tell you.
>Anyway, next thing I know, my GF's really pissed and talking
>about how this kind of stuff supports some people's
>permissive attitude toward sexual violence and/or more
>subtle coercive behavior by *some* men against women (groan
Not the sort of men who have girlfriends :)
Seriously, the DM is a willing participant in the spankings so
I suppose it's OK. I'm actually having trouble getting the
saucy little Duchess to do anything else!
>My first reaction was, "get a sense of humor" (free
>relationship tip: if in this situation, don't say that if
>you don't want real trouble). My position is still that "of
ROTFL! *Real* trouble!
>Seriously. I thought twisted humor was a pretty clear goal,
>but my GF insists that this kind of content ("kinky" scenes
>involving physical force against women or monsters closely
>resembling women) has no place even in humor, regardless of
>the mindset of the viewer. She may have a point, re:
>this stuff influencing some sexually aggressive/coercive
>people out there (and we know they exist). But I also worry
Yeah, but there's plenty of other stuff out there that's more
likely to influence them into such behaviour patterns, and
they'd have to be pretty incorrigible if it's the spanking scenes
in DK that whip them up into a frenzy of wife beating.
Sam
"Shag me, Stuart Hall. I'm big and naughty."
Piemax
slink wrote:
>
> On Tue, 08 Jul 1997 13:22:20 -0400, Piemax <obr...@ziplink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >slink wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:29:57 -0700, ga...@gte.net (Jennifer
> >> Schlickbernd) wrote:
> >>
> >>. I thought High Anxiety was funny, and I think
> >> >this is funny. Neither is for kids though.
> >> >
> >> >Jennifer
> >>
> >> I agree about the not-for-kids part. But the box *is* marked 17+. So
> >> that's covered. My difference of opinion with the girlfriend in
> >> question is that the whole game is shaky for kids. The concept of
> >> "Evil is Good" is *not* something I would want a 6-year-old to come to
> >> enjoy. Later on (how much later I can't guess) they should understand
> >> acting out things like that in a harmless environment.
> >>
> >> Sandra
> >
> >Well there's really not much in the game that marks you as the "evil"
> >side except the torture chamber and perhaps slapping the imps, is there?
>
> It's on the front of the box.
well, my 4 year old can't read :)
I agree that you don't have to play it
> as "evil". You can avoid building the torture chamber, avoid slapping
> your minions, and avoid making sacrifices to the Dark Gods. But would
> a little kid understand where it stops? Evidently Bullfrog didn't
> think so, and rated it accordingly.
I don't have a problem with my 11 yr old playing it- I think
he understands it.
>
> >Other than that it seems a straighforward realtime "us vs them" game on
> >the order of warcraft- again except for the dark mistresses its much
> >tamer graphically than Diablo.
> >
>
> Yup. Except in Diablo you are fighting evil, and in DK you *are*
> evil.
I guess- I dodn't feel that evil playing it.
But then I managed to play Panzer General w/o shuddering; my
Jewish grandmother would have been appalled since she couldn't even bear
listening to Wagner.
meanwhile I finished DK last night- FWIW I found the
last level pretty boring, except for a bit of comic releif at the end-
the game didnt end after I defeated the Avatar's hordes and claimed the
other
keeper's dungeon. Hmm, are there mroe coming? are there mreo rooms
somewhere?
wait what are those white dots -south- of my dungeon?
Turns out that a small band of heros had teleported into a small
unexplored strip
between my dungeon and the map edge and they didnt have a tuneller; I
had to open a wall to let them
in in order to finish off the level. Silly heroes :)
Ben
Robert Music wrote:
> I would be carfull about using the word 'Everything'. With that logic,
> 'jokes' that start with:"Did you hear the one about the Gypsy, the Rabbi
> (sp?), and the Gas Chamber Operator?". Somethings are obsolutely off
> limits and rightfully so. Laughing about yourself is OK, offensive
> jokes about others CAN be 'out of bounds'. Be from me to stand on the
> soap box, but saying, "It's Ok, it's only a joke" doesn't make it less
> offensive. Ouch, I can feel the flames now.......Rob
There was an article in the Chicago Tribune the other day about a group
of lobbyists for blind people who are outraged that Disney is
syndicating the Mr. Magoo cartoon series. They claim it perpetuates
nasty sterotypes about people with poor vision.
My point is that everything is potentially offensive to someone. In that
humor stems from lampooning the foibles of yourself OR other people (you
can't have comedy without tragedy), I would say that making potential
offensiveness of comedy a deciding factor is ultimately self-defeating.
Hitler hijinks? Anyone remember the old TV show Hogan's Heroes?
-Ben
Lynn Johannesen
cbar...@sprintmail.com wrote:
<snip>
: Seriously. I thought twisted humor was a pretty clear goal,
: involving physical force against women or monsters closely
: resembling women) has no place even in humor, regardless of
: the mindset of the viewer. She may have a point, re:
: this stuff influencing some sexually aggressive/coercive
: people out there (and we know they exist).
Disclaimer: I haven't played this game or seen the scenes in
question. Everybody else seems to think they are a parody
of sadomasochistic sexual behavior, so I'll assume that.
There is no objective evidence whatsoever linking this kind
of behavior to rape or nonconsensual violence towards women.
People who claim that there is such evidence are generally
religious-right types who would like to censor all forms of
sexual behavior that they personally don't enjoy. Unfortunately,
they've convinced a certain number of intelligent women that
they're right; perhaps your GF is one of these. (And conceivably
they are right; just because no evidence exists doesn't mean
it isn't true, I suppose.) How far you want to push this is up
to you, but it's not an attitude I'd care for in a GF.
--Dale, expressing his own opinions only
Kirk Macdonald
Ben wrote:
>
> Robert Music wrote:
>
> > I would be carfull about using the word 'Everything'. With that logic,
> > 'jokes' that start with:"Did you hear the one about the Gypsy, the Rabbi
> > (sp?), and the Gas Chamber Operator?". Somethings are obsolutely off
> > limits and rightfully so. Laughing about yourself is OK, offensive
> > jokes about others CAN be 'out of bounds'. Be from me to stand on the
> > soap box, but saying, "It's Ok, it's only a joke" doesn't make it less
> > offensive. Ouch, I can feel the flames now.......Rob
>
> There was an article in the Chicago Tribune the other day about a group
> of lobbyists for blind people who are outraged that Disney is
> syndicating the Mr. Magoo cartoon series. They claim it perpetuates
> nasty sterotypes about people with poor vision.
But that's the way things were perceived at that time. Just like the
perception of Native Americans in the 50's and 60's westerns. Should we
ignore or forbid the viewing or mention of these things? Should we
ignore or forbid mention of the Holocaust? These things happened in the
context of their time; they can be used as a lesson, but to ignore or
try to revise history into some Politically Correct version of what
should have happened is also outrageous!
> My point is that everything is potentially offensive to someone. In that
> humor stems from lampooning the foibles of yourself OR other people (you
> can't have comedy without tragedy), I would say that making potential
> offensiveness of comedy a deciding factor is ultimately self-defeating.
> Hitler hijinks? Anyone remember the old TV show Hogan's Heroes?
>
> -Ben
How about the movie "The Producers"? They tried to pick a subject for a
play; Nazi Germany/Hitler; that everyone would hate so that the play
would fail and they could pocket the money gathered for the production.
Turns out that everyone loved it! Humor is a delicate commodity!
(Hope I didn't inadvertently kill the thread!)
Just my opinion. But hey, everyone's got one.
--
Kirk Macdonald
"Age does not bring wisdom, ...but it does give perspective."
-- Robert Heinlein
These are my own opinions and do not reflect those of The Boeing Co.
James Nemesh
In article <lynnjED...@netcom.com>,
Um...just wondering, but why is it *bad* to hit the female, but OK
to beat/torture/kill the male? Double standard? Hmmm...
Jim
Chuck Walbourn
James Nemesh wrote:
> Um...just wondering, but why is it *bad* to hit the female, but OK
> to beat/torture/kill the male? Double standard? Hmmm...
I think the issue is more that the female ENJOYS being hit... Personally, I think the Dark Mistress
fits with the rest of the whacked world-view of the game but I can understand why not everyone would
find it funny or even acceptable. Most of DK is morally questionable, but at least it is consistent
and well-executed. Besides, it is not like they didn't make it clear on the outside of the box with
captions like "Torture and kill any creature".
-Chuck Walbourn
Charybdis Enterprises, Inc.
http://www.charybdis.com
Rollo the Talking Dragon
I cant get my girlfriend to take any interest in ANY computer game long
enough for her to get offended!
Here is a typical conversation:
(Setting: Dungeon Keeper is loaded in all of its glory)
Me: Hon, come here and check out my evil minions!! Ha ha ha ha (evil
Laugh)!!!!
Girlfriend: Im going to watch home improvement now.
Me: Um...ok.
Unless there is an offensive version of solatiare!
Rollo the Talking Dragon
---===UDIC===---
dbarkes
SJones2247 wrote:
>
> In article <5pr8m0$p...@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>, cbar...@sprintmail.com
> writes:
>
> >Is anyone catching hell (not necessarily directly, but at
> >least via an attack on the game content) from their
> >girlfriends or spouses after they see the Dark Mistress
> >stuff in DK? Here's my situation: my girlfriend bought the
>
> Not as much trouble as I was in when I played her the first song
> on the new Prodigy album - it's called "Smack My Bitch Up" :)
> That wasn't popular, I can tell you.
Hey, you have the same problem I do! :) Too bad, isn't it? It's a great
song...
> >Anyway, next thing I know, my GF's really pissed and talking
> >about how this kind of stuff supports some people's
> >permissive attitude toward sexual violence and/or more
> >subtle coercive behavior by *some* men against women (groan
>
> Not the sort of men who have girlfriends :)
> Seriously, the DM is a willing participant in the spankings so
> I suppose it's OK. I'm actually having trouble getting the
> saucy little Duchess to do anything else!
Everyone (girlfriend included) who happened to see me "torturing" the DM
laughed. Even my mom, who pretty conservative with that kind of stuff. I
guess some people can see the humor in it, others can't.
Doug
--
| Doug Barkes | | dba...@concentric.net |
----------------------------------------------
"Doug Barkes? Is that a pseudonym, or did you
have really cruel parents?" - TCurryFan, RATMM
Dark Avenger
On 9 Jul 1997 12:36:05 -0400, eri...@nina.pagesz.net (James Nemesh)
wrote:
> Um...just wondering, but why is it *bad* to hit the female, but OK
>to beat/torture/kill the male? Double standard? Hmmm...
>
>
Especially where some of the males are getting hit. The first time I
zoomed in and saw the "Nut Crackers" I was hurting!
Maldwarf
>It's on the front of the box. I agree that you don't have to play it
>as "evil". You can avoid building the torture chamber, avoid slapping
>your minions, and avoid making sacrifices to the Dark Gods. But would
>a little kid understand where it stops? Evidently Bullfrog didn't
>think so, and rated it accordingly.
Evil may not be good but it sure is fun. Somethings are just in the genes
I guess. I more upset with the AI.
Malignant Dwarf
Maldwarf
>>>I thought High Anxiety was funny, and I think
>> >this is funny. Neither is for kids though.
Really, High Anxiety not suitable for kids? I saw that as a kid and
laughed so hard I wet my pants! Hmm, although come to think of it I
really did'nt turn out so good...
Paul Campbell
> James Nemesh wrote:
>
> > Um...just wondering, but why is it *bad* to hit the female, but OK
> > to beat/torture/kill the male? Double standard? Hmmm...
I am sick and tired of all these news reports which harping on
about how terrible it is women and children are being gunned down
by whoever. Afterall an unarmed male of "fighting age" is just as
defenceless against someone with a sub-machine gun as a woman or
a child.
Paul C.
UK.
Paul Campbell
Try Theme Hospital , women seem to like that one.
Paul C.
UK.
slink
At the very least, your pants are wet. :)
Sandra
slink
>James Nemesh wrote:
>
>> Um...just wondering, but why is it *bad* to hit the female, but OK
>> to beat/torture/kill the male? Double standard? Hmmm...
>
>I think the issue is more that the female ENJOYS being hit... Personally, I think the Dark Mistress
>fits with the rest of the whacked world-view of the game but I can understand why not everyone would
>find it funny or even acceptable. Most of DK is morally questionable, but at least it is consistent
>and well-executed. Besides, it is not like they didn't make it clear on the outside of the box with
>captions like "Torture and kill any creature".
>
> -Chuck Walbourn
> Charybdis Enterprises, Inc.
> http://www.charybdis.com
Er, it's better to watch a female *not* enjoying it????
Sandra
slink
On Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:38:14 GMT, mcw...@ix.netcom.com (Dark Avenger)
wrote:
>On 9 Jul 1997 12:36:05 -0400, eri...@nina.pagesz.net (James Nemesh)
>wrote:
>> Um...just wondering, but why is it *bad* to hit the female, but OK
>>to beat/torture/kill the male? Double standard? Hmmm...
>>
>> Jim
>>
>Especially where some of the males are getting hit. The first time I
>zoomed in an
I didn't see that <she said eagerly>, where, where <flexing
nutcracker given as a Xmas present>.
Sandra
slink
>In article <lynnjED...@netcom.com>,
> Um...just wondering, but why is it *bad* to hit the female, but OK
>to beat/torture/kill the male? Double standard? Hmmm...
>
> Jim
>
My theory (really, truly only my theory) is that the average female
(in the USA) does not see killing of males or other creatures ("the
enemy") as something that happens near her. We are isolate. We have
never been invaded. But rape is something female specific, and can
hurt her. So, sure, murders happen daily. To people in "bad "
places. But *war* happens somewhere else.
Sandra
cai...@cin.net
> Anyone remember the old TV show Hogan's Heroes?
I think it's really popular in Germany now. Ironic, eh?
Nicholas Jong
Paul Campbell <dog...@mltsa.uk.lucent.com> wrote:
>Try Theme Hospital , women seem to like that one.
Hmm.... In the review I read (in CGW, I think), the (female) reviewer
was annoyed that all the doctors were male and all the nurses were
female.
--
"When you gaze into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you."
-Nietzsche
Michael Cruz
----------
> From: Nicholas Jong <knj...@worldnet.att.net>
> Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic; comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg
> Subject: Re: DK -- Dark Mistress "controversy"
> Date: Saturday, July 12, 1997 7:23 AM
> Hmm.... In the review I read (in CGW, I think), the (female) reviewer
> was annoyed that all the doctors were male and all the nurses were
> female.
Heh, we can try, try, try, and they will never, ever be happy. :)
(women, that is)
Michael Cruz ---- The Serpent
tc...@hollinet.com
http://www.hollinet.com/~tcruz/
---Welcome to the Lair---
waldby julian f
"Michael Cruz" <tc...@hollinet.com> writes:
>----------
>> From: Nicholas Jong <knj...@worldnet.att.net>
>> Hmm.... In the review I read (in CGW, I think), the (female) reviewer
>> was annoyed that all the doctors were male and all the nurses were
>> female.
> Heh, we can try, try, try, and they will never, ever be happy. :)
> (women, that is)
Well, that's a bit silly. It's not trying very hard if you stereotype
all the nurses as women and doctors as men. It's a sad symptom of our
society that women are held back from certain jobs due to an early
stop of education - generally because 1) society doesn't expect them
to do well, but to play their "part" as a housewife. In any game,
and most certainly in the game of life it is going to hurt your performance
if all spectators are booing you. 2) discrimination 3) people who think
it's no big deal, that women are little bunnies at the zoo and sometimes
you get to pick one out.
I noticed your smilie, but I don't think this is a very funny
joke. It's a portion of the death that plagues our country and the
rest of the world.
Statistically it is also incorrect. Some doctors are female. Some nurses
are male. My mother is a doctor. I don't know the exact figures, but
I'm fairly sure from my recollection that it is not 0% female doctors
and 100% female nurses.
Julian
--
"Some people further down the road than you and I"
/---/=/--//--------~/_o__/-----------======^==[zzz
Twin Ion Engine
There's a time to be serious and a time to forget the real world woes. Life
will be very hard if we were to scrutinised every little details. Theme
Hospital bills itself has a fictitious world with disease like hairy-itis. Now
probably, in this world, the doctors are 100% male and nurses 100% female.
Go and find a world with hairy-itis as the disease and probably you'll find
the statistics.
The same goes for Dungeon Keeper.
WiL :)
*Replace imperial.navy.squadron with pacific.net.sg
to e-mail to me*
B Power
On 13 Jul 1997, Michael Cruz wrote:
> > From: Nicholas Jong <knj...@worldnet.att.net>
> > Hmm.... In the review I read (in CGW, I think), the (female) reviewer
> > was annoyed that all the doctors were male and all the nurses were
> > female.
>
> Heh, we can try, try, try, and they will never, ever be happy. :)
> (women, that is)
And they'll never be happy because they have a legitimate complaint. Are
all doctors men? Are all nurses women? Would it have been hard for
Bullfrog to program in female doctors and male nurses?
Brendan
cyp...@pacbell.net
On 13 Jul 1997 04:34:37 GMT, wal...@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu (waldby julian
f) wrote:
>
>Well, that's a bit silly. It's not trying very hard if you stereotype
>all the nurses as women and doctors as men. It's a sad symptom of our
>society that women are held back from certain jobs due to an early
>stop of education - generally because 1) society doesn't expect them
>to do well, but to play their "part" as a housewife. In any game,
>and most certainly in the game of life it is going to hurt your performance
>if all spectators are booing you. 2) discrimination 3) people who think
>it's no big deal, that women are little bunnies at the zoo and sometimes
>you get to pick one out.
>
>I noticed your smilie, but I don't think this is a very funny
>joke. It's a portion of the death that plagues our country and the
>rest of the world.
>
>Statistically it is also incorrect. Some doctors are female. Some nurses
>are male. My mother is a doctor. I don't know the exact figures, but
>I'm fairly sure from my recollection that it is not 0% female doctors
>and 100% female nurses.
>
Imagine that. Theme Hospital is not very realistic and stereotypical!
If Bullfrog is not careful, people may think this game is a parody or
something...
Michael Cruz
B Power <bren...@u.washington.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.OSF.3.96.97071...@saul7.u.washington.edu>...
Much apologies. I have now learned my lesson, that jokes are neither
appropriate nor accepted in this newsgroup. I personally would renounce
computer games if they all had to be totally 100% statistically real life
accurate... they would become dreary exercises in reality rather than the
escape they were meant to be. I also believe that the game cannot harm
anything by having all male doctors and all female nurses, nor could it
harm anything if all females were doctors and all males nurses. Art is
patterned after society, not the other way around, and it is true in
society, not that all men are doctors and all women nurses, but that a
majority of doctors are indeed male and a majority of nurses are indeed
female. So blame society for the fact that more males are doctors, and more
females are nurses, not Bullfrog. All they want to do is entertain you and
heaven forbid make some money doing it. Give them a break. (how much do you
want to bet that one or more of the programmers was a female?).
--
-=*Michael Cruz*=-
The Serpent
tc...@hollinet.com
http://www.hollinet.com/~tcruz
---Welcome to the Lair---
Adam Littman
In article <5q9lst$4id$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, wal...@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu
>Well, that's a bit silly. It's not trying very hard if you stereotype
>all the nurses as women and doctors as men. It's a sad symptom of our
>society that women are held back from certain jobs due to an early
>stop of education - generally because 1) society doesn't expect them
>to do well, but to play their "part" as a housewife.
What decade/country are you living in? Most of the women I know work. In fact
I know of a few housewives who have gotten flack for keeping house and _not_
working.
Of course house husbands are looked down upon much more.
> In any game,
>and most certainly in the game of life it is going to hurt your performance
>if all spectators are booing you. 2) discrimination 3) people who think
>it's no big deal, that women are little bunnies at the zoo and sometimes
>you get to pick one out.
Again the message from the popular culture (TV, newspapers, etc) is that of
encouragement, lots of female doctors & laywers on TV.
If you want to know why NOW's last meeting had only 500 women in attendence
(out of 125 million women in America) just remember that the army's reward for
a successful war is downsizing.
>
>I noticed your smilie, but I don't think this is a very funny
>joke. It's a portion of the death that plagues our country and the
>rest of the world.
>
>Statistically it is also incorrect. Some doctors are female. Some nurses
>are male. My mother is a doctor. I don't know the exact figures, but
>I'm fairly sure from my recollection that it is not 0% female doctors
>and 100% female nurses.
Coats of different colors would be better for distinguishing them but on a
percentage basis there are more male doctors and more female nurses
___________
Adam Littman / ^ \
AL...@cornell.edu /\ / \ /\
/__\__/___\__/__\
/ \( ) ( )/ \
\ /\ o /\ /
\ / \( )/ \ /
"Four minutes twenty-two seconds, \/____\_/____\/
Baldric, you owe me a groat" \ \ /
--Blackadder \ / \ /
---------
Thomas Willoughby
In article <33c9e5e...@news.powerup.com.au>,
chen...@enterprise.powerup.com.au (Chris Hennessy) wrote:
> BTW I think it is the warlock on the torture device you might be
> looking for :-)
Nope. It's the thief!
!^NavFont02F00BA0008JGA9HGBC8FD6
--
--
- Thomas Willoughby at twil...@flash.net
- posted on 07/14/97 at 15:04 using OUI PB 1.8 Beta 3 from http://www.peaktopeak.com
"I think not," said Descartes, and disappeared.
Michael McFarland
>My theory (really, truly only my theory) is that the average female
>(in the USA) does not see killing of males or other creatures ("the
>enemy") as something that happens near her. We are isolate. We have
>never been invaded. But rape is something female specific, and can
>hurt her. So, sure, murders happen daily. To people in "bad "
>places. But *war* happens somewhere else.
>
>Sandra
Hello Sandra! I was perusing this thread and saw you comments above and
hve to disagree with ya. Having a couple of friends who work in the
prison/police environment i've come to the conclusion that rape is not
female specific. In fact the male rape victim can have far more mental
repurcussions to deal with. Both are bad, so dont get me wrong there. I
just disagree with the "female specific" stuff. Later.
--
California State University Northridge
Information and Technology Resources
Technology Support Group
Michael E McFarland Internet : michael....@csun.edu
B.S.E.E.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of
chains and slavery! Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course
others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
Patrick Henry, Williamsburg Va, March 1775
oleg
[snip]
>Seriously. I thought twisted humor was a pretty clear goal,
>but my GF insists that this kind of content ("kinky" scenes
>involving physical force against women or monsters closely
>resembling women) has no place even in humor, regardless of
>the mindset of the viewer. She may have a point, re:
>this stuff influencing some sexually aggressive/coercive
>about censorship, and there may be relatively few clear
>lines that can be drawn re: censorship. Well? What do
>people think about this? I'd appreciate it if people
>responding try to be objective about it and address the
>merits (I know it's easy to dismiss or laugh off at first; I
>did myself).
alt.sex.bondage. Read it, learn it, (not necessarily live it).
Some people enjoy being slapped around and are aroused by it.
Others fail to see the attraction. It is part of life, and
just as there are many other consensual acts that are not
part of my repertoire but don't bother me in the least when
they are done by folks who enjoy them in the privacy of their
own dungeon, fictional S&M isn't on my List of Things To Worry
About. However, non-consensual fictional S&M, as when you are slapping
around poor helpless creatures and blowing up chickens is
clearly wrong and must be stopped. Now, please excuse me while
I go mount a rocket launcher on my car, you see I have been
playing Interstate 76 lately, and I think I learned some
techniques which would be helpful during the morning commute.
oleg
PS no orcs were hurt during the writing of this post.
--
Oleg ****please use the reply-to: part of the header to reply******
DoD 388 ro...@cyberpromo.com postm...@cyberpromo.com
win...@cyberpromo.com
Virago 700 "V'ger"
mikelee
oleg wrote:
> About. However, non-consensual fictional S&M, as when you are slapping
> around poor helpless creatures and blowing up chickens is
> clearly wrong and must be stopped. Now, please excuse me while
> I go mount a rocket launcher on my car, you see I have been
> playing Interstate 76 lately, and I think I learned some
> techniques which would be helpful during the morning commute.
>
> oleg
Unless you were posting sarcastically in jest, i think you need to
separate fantasy from reality. If you cannot separate DK (of all games,
so blatantly comical and unrealistic) from reality...
--
Remove the "_NOSPAM_" to reply
mikelee
B Power wrote:
> And they'll never be happy because they have a legitimate complaint.
> Are
> all doctors men? Are all nurses women? Would it have been hard for
> Bullfrog to program in female doctors and male nurses?
>
> Brendan
Well, what would that accomplish? If all the doctors were female men
could just as legitimately complain. If the game (i assume it's sprite
based) had a male doctor sprite and female doctor sprite, people could
complain about the unrealistic 50/50 ratio of male to female doctors.
Does the game even have more than one sprite for the same character?
I'm guessing not.
If you think this is a "legitimate" complaint about a _game_, you better
start crusading against every game in existence, because every game
(barring card/puzzle games) simplified and minimalized the real world to
a great extent. I suggest you start off by petitioning against the
representation of Ms. Pac-Man (blatantly stating that all females wear
cute little bows).
Ted Doty
On Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:42:44 GMT, chen...@enterprise.powerup.com.au
(Chris Hennessy) wrote:
> I would have honestly hoped any child old enough to operate the game
>would understand the joke.
Don't bet on it. My 4 year old has figured out how to possess
creatures. Fortunately, he hasn't figured out how to build rooms, he
just kind of wanders around hitting things.
- Ted
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ted Doty, StorageTek Network Systems | phone: +44 (0)1 483 737 705
6 Genesis Business Park, Albert Drive | fax: +44 (0)1 483 737 700
Woking, Surrey, GU21 5RW, UK | voice mail: leave message at beep
PGP Key fingerprint = 36 2A EA C7 9E 08 16 89 FD 0F E6 25 D5 25 E1 BE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The opinion expressed in this message is fictitious. Any resemblence to
real opinions, living or dead, is purely coincidental.
waldby julian f
mikelee <mikelee...@hatman.com> writes:
>B Power wrote:
>> And they'll never be happy because they have a legitimate complaint.
>> Are
>> all doctors men? Are all nurses women? Would it have been hard for
>> Bullfrog to program in female doctors and male nurses?
>>
>> Brendan
>a great extent. I suggest you start off by petitioning against the
>representation of Ms. Pac-Man (blatantly stating that all females wear
>cute little bows).
This is different. Ms. Pac-Man is one entity. There exist women who wear
cute little bows. Ms. Pac-Man is one of them. How is that a misrepresentation?
The logic in DK is, ALL doctors are male ALL nurses are female. If you had
an infinite number of doctors, all would be male.
ReluctantMessiah
In article <5q9lst$4id$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
waldby julian f <wal...@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu> wrote:
[snip]
>...3) people who think
>it's no big deal, that women are little bunnies at the zoo and sometimes
>you get to pick one out.
Damn, I have been going to all the wrong zoos all this time.
-jc
--
"...alt.folklore.urban frowns upon the usage of emoticons in postings...
please consider that emoticons which are inappropriately displayed in AFU
are also distasteful. They add nothing useful to your posting and are very
distracting."--Charles Wm. Dimmick, email ;) to dim...@ccsu.ctstateu.edu
mikelee
waldby julian f wrote:
> This is different. Ms. Pac-Man is one entity. There exist women who
> wear
> cute little bows. Ms. Pac-Man is one of them. How is that a
> misrepresentation?
>
> The logic in DK is, ALL doctors are male ALL nurses are female. If you
> had
> an infinite number of doctors, all would be male.
That example was supposed to be sarcastic. Ms. Pac-Man of course
doesn't (and never was intended to) represent the female gender. And
the doctors in Theme Hospital do not (and were not intended to)
represent the MD profession. They are both _characters_ in a game. Ms.
Pac-Man is an individual, the doctors are a group of people, but they
are still both existing in a fictional environment, clearly intended as
amusement and not a model of reality.
slink
On 15 Jul 97 00:17:05 GMT, "Michael McFarland"
<michael....@csun.edu> wrote:
>>My theory (really, truly only my theory) is that the average female
>>(in the USA) does not see killing of males or other creatures ("the
>>enemy") as something that happens near her. We are isolate. We have
>>never been invaded. But rape is something female specific, and can
>>hurt her. So, sure, murders happen daily. To people in "bad "
>>places. But *war* happens somewhere else.
>>
>>Sandra
>
>Hello Sandra! I was perusing this thread and saw you comments above and
>hve to disagree with ya. Having a couple of friends who work in the
>prison/police environment i've come to the conclusion that rape is not
>female specific. In fact the male rape victim can have far more mental
>repurcussions to deal with. Both are bad, so dont get me wrong there. I
>just disagree with the "female specific" stuff. Later.
>
>--
>
>
> California State University Northridge
> Information and Technology Resources
> Technology Support Group
>
>Michael E McFarland Internet : michael....@csun.edu
> B.S.E.E.
>
Ah. But the very fact that the men you are referring to have more
problems illustrates my point. Men think of rape as something that
happens to women, because they don't think about men in prisons.
American women think of combat as something that happens to men
because they don't think about the women in the countries where the
wars take place. That was the thing I was trying to say.
Sandra
slink
>--
>Remove the "_NOSPAM_" to reply
Of course he was joking, unless he lives in LA. :)
Sandra
waldby julian f
mikelee <mikelee...@hatman.com> writes:
>waldby julian f wrote:
>> This is different. Ms. Pac-Man is one entity. There exist women who
>> wear
>> cute little bows. Ms. Pac-Man is one of them. How is that a
>> misrepresentation?
>>
>> The logic in DK is, ALL doctors are male ALL nurses are female. If you
>> had
>> an infinite number of doctors, all would be male.
>That example was supposed to be sarcastic. Ms. Pac-Man of course
>doesn't (and never was intended to) represent the female gender. And
It may have been intended to be sarcastic, but it was butt stupid and
unrelated. Do I make comments like "Three eggs are flying with Ms.
Earhart" during an argument, or "a Portuguese penguin canters slower
than a German warhorse"? No. I tend to leave these kind of comments
out. Generally when I am writing a butt stupid statement I say, "
Hmm, this statement is butt stupid and does not further the
proposition."
B Power
On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, mikelee wrote:
> B Power wrote:
>
> > And they'll never be happy because they have a legitimate complaint.
> > Are
> > all doctors men? Are all nurses women? Would it have been hard for
> > Bullfrog to program in female doctors and male nurses?
>
> Well, what would that accomplish? If all the doctors were female men
> could just as legitimately complain. If the game (i assume it's sprite
> based) had a male doctor sprite and female doctor sprite, people could
> complain about the unrealistic 50/50 ratio of male to female doctors.
> Does the game even have more than one sprite for the same character?
> I'm guessing not.
Mike,
People are products of their culture. We are all socialized to believe
certain things, and those ideas can be reinforced, whether through books,
television, or computer games. Ideally, here in the United States, we're
working towards gender equity. A game like Theme Hospital works against
that, because it further prods people's subconscious (no matter how
little) towards the conclusion that men are better doctors than women.
> If you think this is a "legitimate" complaint about a _game_, you better
> start crusading against every game in existence, because every game
> (barring card/puzzle games) simplified and minimalized the real world to
> a great extent. I suggest you start off by petitioning against the
> representation of Ms. Pac-Man (blatantly stating that all females wear
> cute little bows).
It _is_ a legitimate complaint about a game. I'm hardly crusading against
purchasing Theme Hospital. In fact, I think it's quite fun. I just want
people to _recognize_ that it does make some _incorrect_ assumptions, and
to challenge that in the future. It would have been a trivial matter for
Bullfrog to add female doctors and male nurses.
And yes, there is more than one sprite for each character.
Brendan
Gabriel
On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:18:38 -0700, B Power
<bren...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, mikelee wrote:
>
>> B Power wrote:
>>
>> > And they'll never be happy because they have a legitimate complaint.
>> > Are
>> > all doctors men? Are all nurses women? Would it have been hard for
>> > Bullfrog to program in female doctors and male nurses?
>>
>> Well, what would that accomplish? If all the doctors were female men
>> could just as legitimately complain. If the game (i assume it's sprite
>> based) had a male doctor sprite and female doctor sprite, people could
>> complain about the unrealistic 50/50 ratio of male to female doctors.
>> Does the game even have more than one sprite for the same character?
>> I'm guessing not.
>
>Mike,
>
>People are products of their culture. We are all socialized to believe
>certain things, and those ideas can be reinforced, whether through books,
>television, or computer games. Ideally, here in the United States, we're
>working towards gender equity. A game like Theme Hospital works against
>that, because it further prods people's subconscious (no matter how
>little) towards the conclusion that men are better doctors than women.
Ah, and isn't it great that we can have a game that does this
*because* we live in the U.S.. I just love it when the 1st amendment
works against a concept which is so PC.
<snip>
Gabriel
Ken Nicolson
red...@mindspring.com (Gabriel ) wrote:
[snip!]
>Ah, and isn't it great that we can have a game that does this
>*because* we live in the U.S.. I just love it when the 1st amendment
>works against a concept which is so PC.
Eh, what are you on about? Theme Hospital is a UK-developed game (did
anything get translated for the US?), where all issues of gender
equality are just as relevant as in the US, and probably more rigidly
legislated about.
The First Amendment played not one single part in the design of TH or
DK.
Also, have you noticed that the icon to buy a Receptionist is male,
but it's only women for hire?
And, if anyone is going to be offended, I'd think it would be the
cleaning workers - I really love the icon for calling a man (what, no
women cleaners) to fix the machines is a surly guy with his hands in
his pockets.
>Gabriel
Ken, who will put this thread in the kill file if anyone mentions
ethnic origins balance.
--
Ken Nicolson, Panasonic OWL: ke...@owl.co.uk http://www.owl.co.uk
At Home: k...@ride.demon.co.uk http://www.ride.demon.co.uk
#include <disclaim>
Herring
wal...@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu (waldby julian f) said "Nih!" and wrote:
>mikelee <mikelee...@hatman.com> writes:
>
>>B Power wrote:
>
>>> And they'll never be happy because they have a legitimate complaint.
>>> Are
>>> all doctors men? Are all nurses women? Would it have been hard for
>>> Bullfrog to program in female doctors and male nurses?
>>>
>>> Brendan
>
>>a great extent. I suggest you start off by petitioning against the
>>representation of Ms. Pac-Man (blatantly stating that all females wear
>>cute little bows).
>
>This is different. Ms. Pac-Man is one entity. There exist women who wear
>cute little bows. Ms. Pac-Man is one of them. How is that a misrepresentation?
>
>The logic in DK is, ALL doctors are male ALL nurses are female. If you had
>an infinite number of doctors, all would be male.
>
>Julian
>--
>"Some people further down the road than you and I"
>/---/=/--//--------~/_o__/-----------======^==[zzz
By this logic Theme Hospital is also racist as by implication there
are no Asian doctors. Or doctors with a disability. And what about
heightism? Everybody is exactly the same size! No giants/dwarfs.
Nobody with long hair etc etc bloody etc
This is a GAME. Same as there are no racist implications to draughts
(or chess') black and white pieces. They're representations, nothing
more.
Fredric Strauss
<33C50A5C...@mltsa.uk.lucent.com>
<5q83r6$f...@mtinsc04.worldnet.att.net>
<01bc8f44$a1a4a000$2708...@tcruz.hollinet.com>
<Pine.OSF.3.96.97071...@saul7.u.washington.edu>
<33CB2987...@hatman.com>
<Pine.OSF.3.96.970715...@saul5.u.washington.edu>
<33cbf4c7...@news.mindspring.com> <33ce8e62.3255941@newshost> <YrYqKHA8...@adamsfam.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joel Adams wrote:
>
> In article <33ce8e62.3255941@newshost>, Ken Nicolson <ke...@owl.co.uk>
> writes
> >red...@mindspring.com (Gabriel ) wrote:
> >
> >[snip!]
> >
> >>Ah, and isn't it great that we can have a game that does this
> >>*because* we live in the U.S.. I just love it when the 1st amendment
> >>works against a concept which is so PC.
> >
> >Eh, what are you on about? Theme Hospital is a UK-developed game (did
> >anything get translated for the US?), where all issues of gender
> >equality are just as relevant as in the US, and probably more rigidly
> >legislated about.
> >
> >The First Amendment played not one single part in the design of TH or
> >DK.
>
> No no no no - Don't you know the American constitution is central to
> everything that happens everywhere - Americans get upset if you point
> out the rest of the world doesn't take much notice of it :)
>
> (Joel braces himself for hordes of angry americans coming to correct
> him)
Yes, we DECLARE WAR ON YOU!!! Fortunately for you, nuclear weapons,
chemical weapons, land mines, biological weapons, and assult rifles are
all non-PC, so we will be storming the mainland to beat you all with
hard rocks and big sticks!
--
####################################################################
Fredric Strauss # "What kind of started out as a love
TDS Computing Services # affair, quite frankly now is feeling
Madison, WI # more like date rape."
fred.s...@teldta.com # Ntnl Wildlife Foundation on Bill Clinton
####################################################################
Joel Adams
In article <33ce8e62.3255941@newshost>, Ken Nicolson <ke...@owl.co.uk>
writes
>red...@mindspring.com (Gabriel ) wrote:
>
>[snip!]
>
>>Ah, and isn't it great that we can have a game that does this
>>*because* we live in the U.S.. I just love it when the 1st amendment
>>works against a concept which is so PC.
>
>Eh, what are you on about? Theme Hospital is a UK-developed game (did
>anything get translated for the US?), where all issues of gender
>equality are just as relevant as in the US, and probably more rigidly
>legislated about.
>
>The First Amendment played not one single part in the design of TH or
>DK.
No no no no - Don't you know the American constitution is central to
everything that happens everywhere - Americans get upset if you point
out the rest of the world doesn't take much notice of it :)
(Joel braces himself for hordes of angry americans coming to correct
him)
--
Joel Adams
Jonathan K.
In article <YrYqKHA8...@adamsfam.demon.co.uk>,
Joel Adams <Jo...@adamsfam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>The First Amendment played not one single part in the design of TH or
>>DK.
>
>No no no no - Don't you know the American constitution is central to
>everything that happens everywhere - Americans get upset if you point
>out the rest of the world doesn't take much notice of it :)
From an American, thank you for reminding a lot of the idiots in this
country that our views and regulations cannot and will not dictate what is
right or wrong except within our own borders. They need reminding of this
once in a while, and those of us who consider ourselves part of the world
community applaud you.
--
Jonathan K.
Adam Littman
>Yes, we DECLARE WAR ON YOU!!! Fortunately for you, nuclear weapons,
>chemical weapons, land mines, biological weapons, and assult rifles are
>all non-PC, so we will be storming the mainland to beat you all with
>hard rocks and big sticks!
Big sticks are non-PC too, some kind of Freudian thing :-)
Adam Littman
>By this logic Theme Hospital is also racist as by implication there
>are no Asian doctors. Or doctors with a disability. And what about
>heightism? Everybody is exactly the same size! No giants/dwarfs.
>Nobody with long hair etc etc bloody etc
>
>This is a GAME. Same as there are no racist implications to draughts
>(or chess') black and white pieces. They're representations, nothing
>more.
Oh yeah, then how come whites always go first in Chess? :-)
David Thompson
>
>
>People are products of their culture. We are all socialized to believe
>certain things, and those ideas can be reinforced, whether through books,
>television, or computer games. Ideally, here in the United States, we're
>working towards gender equity. A game like Theme Hospital works against
>that, because it further prods people's subconscious (no matter how
>little) towards the conclusion that men are better doctors than women.
You know what the politically correct movement has never
understood? That by poking and prodding people with these tiny little
issues, demanding change where people were just trying to have some
fun, they create a backlash. People fall back on freedom of speech and
claim that the PC hordes are trying to take it away from them. That's
a battle that the politically correct cannot win, at least in North
America.
And the original issue gets lost in the crossfire. I'm sure most
people here believe that there should be equal opportunity for both
genders, but they do NOT want someone tut-tutting their games or
anything else in their lives, or worse yet trying to ban them (as some
do try, if not the majority). If you think that you're creating
positive change when you do this, you're sadly deluded. Political
correctness has become a tool in the hands of those who really don't
want that kind of change, because it's an easy label to pin on
someone.
>
>> If you think this is a "legitimate" complaint about a _game_, you better
>> start crusading against every game in existence, because every game
>> (barring card/puzzle games) simplified and minimalized the real world to
>> a great extent. I suggest you start off by petitioning against the
>> representation of Ms. Pac-Man (blatantly stating that all females wear
>> cute little bows).
>
>It _is_ a legitimate complaint about a game. I'm hardly crusading against
>purchasing Theme Hospital. In fact, I think it's quite fun. I just want
>people to _recognize_ that it does make some _incorrect_ assumptions, and
>to challenge that in the future. It would have been a trivial matter for
>Bullfrog to add female doctors and male nurses.
>
What _you_ need to do is to stop preaching at people and taking
the moral high ground, because you're accomplishing exactly the
opposite of what you're trying to do.
____________________________________________
'Give me back the Berlin Wall,
Give me Stalin or Saint Paul.
I've seen the future, baby,
It is murder.'
- Leonard Cohen, "The Future"
To email me, remove the capital letters from my address.
Thomas Owen
B Power wrote:
>
> People are products of their culture. We are all socialized to believe
> certain things, and those ideas can be reinforced, whether through books,
> television, or computer games. Ideally, here in the United States, we're
> working towards gender equity. A game like Theme Hospital works against
> that, because it further prods people's subconscious (no matter how
> little) towards the conclusion that men are better doctors than women.
>
women are better nurses than men. Of course, that would be OK,
because it is in a womans advantage, right? Or are you saying that
being a nurse is somehow inferior to being a doctor? I think you
are discriminating towards nurses! You are an anti-nursite. I bet if
a nurse tried to move into your neighborhood, you'd throw Theme Hospital
boxes through their window to try and drive them out :)
Tom
Nothien Pryde
I think that the biggest shame of PC is when something tries too hard to
be PC. It really shows in poor product quality. Kinda like in the
Jurassic Park movie where they made Lex the older one, and lost a huge
element of the story 'cause she was supposed to be a whiny, bumbling
brat.
Thomas Owen
waldby julian f wrote:
> quarterback in the hospital setting.
>
> A nurse's importance is greatly less. Less training, less responsibility
> and less calls in the middle of the night.
>
> When will you people stop making the most ridiculous counter-arguments?
> Run your frigging statements through both sides of your mind, and not
> just let them drip out of your mouths. Try asking the rest of your fifth
> grade class about their ideas and views.
>
Sigh. Even when I include the smiley for the humor impaired (yes, the
:) was NOT a typo), some wacko is still so filled with self-righteous
fervor at the thought that I might be, *GASP*, belittling women, that
they totally miss it. So, here we go:
1) My statement was meant to be humor. Yes, I realize that women are
sometimes discriminated against in todays society. But hey, guess what,
so is every other single human on this planet. Life is not fair. Yep,
it sucks, but thats the way it is.
2)The fact that life is not fair does not imply that we should just
accept the unfairness. We should stand up for what is "right". However,
Theme Hospital is a Game. This means it is NOT real life. If you
had a brain powerful enough to have comprehended the fifth grade
education you blindly accused me of being in the middle of
<BEGIN ASIDE>
Now see, don't pointless, unfounded insults hurt? I didn't NEED to
accuse you of being a moron to make my point. But there it is. While
we are in an aside, let me talk for a second about hypocrisy. You seem
horribly incensed that (in your eyes) Theme Hospital stereotypes women.
However, look what you did to me. You don't know me at all, but since
I didn't agree with your world view, and since you probably guessed
that I am male, what did you do? You called me a drooling fifth grade
idiot. Yes, thats right, you stereotyped me. See how easy it is? Now,
go wash out your keyboard with soap, and sit in the corner for a while
and think about what you did.
<END ASIDE>
you would have realized this game is meant to be a PARODY! a parody,
by its very nature, implies grossly exaggerated stereotypes and over
simplified situations. Sure, they could have put in graphics for
female doctors and male nurses, but why should they. If you are so
clueless and/or weak willed as to think that this game is supposed to
be representative of society as it is/should be, then I think what you
should really be concerned about is your ability to distinguish fantasy
from reality.
Personally, I think you have WAY too much free time if you are taking
up this kind of a crusade. If someone tried to tell my wife (BS in
molecular genetics, BS in computer science, working on her masters) that
she couldn't do something because she was "just a woman", the only
thing that would stop her from smacking them upside the head would be
the fact that I wuold be in they way smacking them around a bit.
However, she plays Theme Hospital and laughs at it (as was, I'm sure,
intended by the authors). You see, nowhere does this game say "hey,
women CAN'T be doctors!", it just doesn't portray women as doctors.
Does anyone watch Star Trek and say "Hey, this is prejudiced, they
are implying that all androids have to be male, since there are no
female androids portrayed." Now, here comes MY imperative to YOU (you
gave me one, so its only fair that I get to return one):
Try actually THINKING about what is really being presented, in context,
before smashing your teeth out with your knee. If youv'e got so much
excess energy, how about focusing it into something usefull like some
volunteer work, instead of ranting that a game is not portraying things
just like they are in real life.
Tom
--
"I'm sticking pins and needles in these stinking, rotten, flesh-like
substitute pieces of half cooked meat that are walking on this earth."
Skinny Puppy, Candle
Shane Hennessy
Thomas Owen wrote:
< chopped out excellent flame >
Clap Clap Clap. Standing ovation, excellent flame. I nominate it flame
of the month! Down with haters of parody!
Me
Adam Littman
In article <5qm4hr$i3t$1...@sparky.wolfe.net>, fl...@WOLFENET.COM (Jonathan K.) wrote:
>In article <YrYqKHA8...@adamsfam.demon.co.uk>,
>Joel Adams <Jo...@adamsfam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>The First Amendment played not one single part in the design of TH or
>>>DK.
>>
>>No no no no - Don't you know the American constitution is central to
>>everything that happens everywhere - Americans get upset if you point
>>out the rest of the world doesn't take much notice of it :)
>
>From an American, thank you for reminding a lot of the idiots in this
>country that our views and regulations cannot and will not dictate what is
>right or wrong except within our own borders. They need reminding of this
Cannot dictate right and wrong anywhere, only lawful and unlawful.
>once in a while, and those of us who consider ourselves part of the world
>community applaud you.
Actually alot of the Bill of Rights is intended to declare what is universally
right and wrong, it doesn't create the rights listed, it just reaffirms them,
whether you agree with them or not is another matter. The Constitution is
legally binding only on our own government, but that is a matter of law not
right and wrong. A government can make any law they want to but they cannot
dictate morality. And yes the rest of the world takes alot of notice. America
has stood as an inspiration to the world. A demonstration of the success of
the principles on which it wa founded.
sal...@ix.netcom.com
Ken Nicolson wrote:
>
> red...@mindspring.com (Gabriel ) wrote:
>
> [snip!]
>
> >Ah, and isn't it great that we can have a game that does this
> >*because* we live in the U.S.. I just love it when the 1st amendment
> >works against a concept which is so PC.
>
> Eh, what are you on about? Theme Hospital is a UK-developed game (did
> anything get translated for the US?), where all issues of gender
> equality are just as relevant as in the US, and probably more rigidly
> legislated about.
>
> DK.
>
> but it's only women for hire?
>
> And, if anyone is going to be offended, I'd think it would be the
> cleaning workers - I really love the icon for calling a man (what, no
> women cleaners) to fix the machines is a surly guy with his hands in
> his pockets.
>
> >Gabriel
>
> Ken, who will put this thread in the kill file if anyone mentions
> ethnic origins balance.
I think that you are making a very good point here. Everyone is
complaining about the missed - virtual opportunities for female doctors
but none of our virtual feminists have complained about the lack of
female repairmen / cleaners?
Dan Salenger
sal...@ix.netcom.com
sal...@ix.netcom.com
waldby julian f wrote:
>
> mikelee <mikelee...@hatman.com> writes:
>
> >B Power wrote:
>
> >> And they'll never be happy because they have a legitimate complaint.
> >> Are
> >> all doctors men? Are all nurses women? Would it have been hard for
> >> Bullfrog to program in female doctors and male nurses?
> >>
> >> Brendan
>
> >representation of Ms. Pac-Man (blatantly stating that all females wear
> >cute little bows).
>
> cute little bows. Ms. Pac-Man is one of them. How is that a misrepresentation?
>
> The logic in DK is, ALL doctors are male ALL nurses are female. If you had
> an infinite number of doctors, all would be male.
>
> Julian
Ok so imagine this for a minute... Maybe it is a men's hospital where
the patients prefer to have male doctors. That would work well here, I
mean when was the last time you saw a men's hospital (something entirely
politically incorrect)? The only place it would fit in this society is
in a simulation game. Yet there are plenty of women's hospitals (not
just clinics) where the preference would seem to be in favor of female
doctors.
Forgive me if this does not make much sense but neither does the
thread. Enjoy the game already or send it back in a huff and puff of
protest.
Dan Salenger
sal...@ix.netcom.com
DemonLord
Anyone that thinks whipping a fake demon-girl in a computer game is some sort of
statement against political equality needs to find their reality button and turn it
back on. This is a fucking video. You play a god-damned demon, trying to kill
people. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. What if I were to turn the
argument around and say it is a statement against men because you HAVE to kill the
dwarves, which would appear to be male, to advance. You don't have to torture the
mistress. There are people in this world that do like being whipped, and the woman of
that kind tend to get more publicity. As for you people out there that think men and
women are equal, you need to go get your brain checked. Take one look between the
legs and you can realize that men and women are as different as night and day, and
should be treated as such.
David Thompson
Ah, so because these rights were universal in the eyes of the men
who created the Bill of Rights, they are therefore universal for the
entire world. Thank you, oh Americano, for showing the rest of the
world the way to justice and freedom. I know we here in Canada would
still be llving in darkness if it weren't for you. You even had the
decency to invade us in 1812, just to try and spread the Word. What a
shame you lost.
On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:27:14 GMT, al...@cornell.edu (Adam Littman)
wrote:
<snip>
>
>Actually alot of the Bill of Rights is intended to declare what is universally
>right and wrong, it doesn't create the rights listed, it just reaffirms them,
>whether you agree with them or not is another matter. The Constitution is
>legally binding only on our own government, but that is a matter of law not
>right and wrong. A government can make any law they want to but they cannot
>dictate morality. And yes the rest of the world takes alot of notice. America
>has stood as an inspiration to the world. A demonstration of the success of
>the principles on which it wa founded.
>
Soltan Gris
In article <33c69596...@news.netins.net>, sl...@netins.net (slink) wrote:
>On Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:38:14 GMT, mcw...@ix.netcom.com (Dark Avenger)
>wrote:
>>Especially where some of the males are getting hit. The first time I
>>zoomed in an
>I didn't see that <she said eagerly>, where, where <flexing
>nutcracker given as a Xmas present>.
>Sandra
>
You could try dropping one of those purple little guys with the big
hammer on one of the tourture pads.....
Soltan Gris
To rePLY v email remove NOSPAM from address.
Amendment IX: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain
rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others
retained by the people.
Amendment X: The powers not delegated to the United States by
the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are
reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
AntiSpam
Hoser: "Now, come on... what do you Americans REALLY think of Canada
?"
Yankee: "Uh, we don't."
(Dr. Katz)
But seriously, thank you so *very* much for giving us hockey. :-) Too
bad all of your teams are leaving Canada to play here. What a *pity*.
;-( Now, go run along and play with France in the "nobody cares" play
room. :-6
D Rapp
Let's put all of this in perspective. The U.S. Constitution and the Bill of
Rights; as well as many of the aspects of Canada's government were closely
modeled off of a Native American document/form of government (Algonquin?).
This agreement was binding among a nation of tribes that were very promptly
decimated and placed on reservations by both countries; where they remain
today. Neither country can very proudly lay claim to their "original" form
of government.
Dan
David Thompson
Hey now, we hate the French as much as you Yanks do, but with far
more reason. What other country would have the gall to put out a stamp
commemorating De Gaulle's speech to Quebec, where he fanned the fires
of separatism and caused endless headaches for Canada? We should have
let the Nazis wreck the place for another few years before we went
over and liberated them.
On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:06:38 -0400, AntiSpam
<Machine_tha...@PING.net> wrote:
<snip>
>
>But seriously, thank you so *very* much for giving us hockey. :-) Too
>bad all of your teams are leaving Canada to play here. What a *pity*.
>;-( Now, go run along and play with France in the "nobody cares" play
>room. :-6
>
____________________________________________
Michael Lewchuk
NOS-me...@netcom.caPAM (David Thompson) writes:
>On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:18:38 -0700, B Power
><bren...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
First of all I'd like to point out that you guys are arguing in the wrong
newsgroups.
>>People are products of their culture. We are all socialized to believe
>>certain things, and those ideas can be reinforced, whether through books,
>>television, or computer games. Ideally, here in the United States, we're
>>working towards gender equity. A game like Theme Hospital works against
>>that, because it further prods people's subconscious (no matter how
>>little) towards the conclusion that men are better doctors than women.
A few points here: we are not all "socialized to believe certain things".
The "establishment" would like to believe this, but it is not true. People
can make moral judgements on their own, believe it or not, independent of
"advertising" or "propaganda", be it governmental, popular/populist or private.
In addition, "socializing" people to accept certain things is a violation of
one of the most fundamental rights: the right to think for yourself and make
your own decisions, be they good or bad.
Third, why should a game's "gender bias" "prod people towards the idea that men
are better doctors than women"? I fail to see this connection between "more"
(and frankly the last time I checked there were few women doctors and few male
nurses) and "better" or "competent".
The one really ridiculous bias "political correctness" has is that the genders
and races are identical. Why should not cultural differences and gender
differences influence choice? Or what happens if fewer women *want* to go
into medicine, or if not all women want to get a job, and some would be happy
staying at home and being housewives? Are you gonna make 'em get a job, or
blame it on the design of computer games?
> You know what the politically correct movement has never
>understood? That by poking and prodding people with these tiny little
>issues, demanding change where people were just trying to have some
>fun, they create a backlash. People fall back on freedom of speech and
>claim that the PC hordes are trying to take it away from them. That's
>a battle that the politically correct cannot win, at least in North America.
Um, some of the "PC hordes" ARE trying to take away freedom of speech, as well
as a few other freedoms. They have had their major successes at the community
level because frankly at the national level there are enough people with other
interests (such as maintaining freedom of speech and the right to make one's
own decisions) that it always gets watered down to "enforced politeness", sort
of like having your parents hovering around you, chanting "mind your manners"
all the time.
> And the original issue gets lost in the crossfire. I'm sure most
>people here believe that there should be equal opportunity for both
>genders, but they do NOT want someone tut-tutting their games or
>anything else in their lives, or worse yet trying to ban them (as some
>do try, if not the majority). If you think that you're creating
>positive change when you do this, you're sadly deluded. Political
>correctness has become a tool in the hands of those who really don't
>want that kind of change, because it's an easy label to pin on someone.
I think I'll leave this in here because it should be read.
Michael Lewchuk
lew...@cs.UAlberta.CA
Adam Littman
In article <33d258ce...@nntp.netcom.ca>, NOS-me...@netcom.caPAM (David Thompson) wrote:
> Ah, so because these rights were universal in the eyes of the men
>who created the Bill of Rights, they are therefore universal for the
>entire world. Thank you, oh Americano, for showing the rest of the
Intended to be, not necessarily is (which you would have noticed had you read
carefully), and last time I checked my name wasn't Thomas Jefferson, Ben
Franklin or Samuel Adams (i.e. for the slow among us I am not one of the
founding fathers, please read the above in a snearing, sarcastic voice), I
didn't write it I just admire it. And also last time I checked you Canadians
_are_ still living in darkness :-) (Just a joke, it was too good a
straightline to pass up).
And frankly I am sick of Canadians bitching and moaning about America, you
derive enourmous benefits by your proximity, like a place to escape your
insanely high tarrifs, not to mention the fact that you can skimp on your
military budget, I mean who is going to invade Canada without taking the US
down first? And if we lost you wouldn't have a chance.
>world the way to justice and freedom. I know we here in Canada would
>still be llving in darkness if it weren't for you. You even had the
>decency to invade us in 1812, just to try and spread the Word. What a
>shame you lost.
True, I have always figured the US should have spread from the Pole to Panama
while Imperialism was in vogue, it would have made border partrols down south
easier for one thing ;-)
>On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:27:14 GMT, al...@cornell.edu (Adam Littman)
>wrote:
><snip>
>>Actually alot of the Bill of Rights is intended to declare what is universally
>>right and wrong, it doesn't create the rights listed, it just reaffirms them,
>>whether you agree with them or not is another matter. The Constitution is
>>legally binding only on our own government, but that is a matter of law not
>>right and wrong. A government can make any law they want to but they cannot
>>dictate morality. And yes the rest of the world takes alot of notice. America
>>has stood as an inspiration to the world. A demonstration of the success of
>>the principles on which it wa founded.
Adam Littman
In article <5qrb8p$kd2$1...@gte1.gte.net>, D Rapp <dr...@gte.net> wrote:
>Let's put all of this in perspective. The U.S. Constitution and the Bill of
>Rights; as well as many of the aspects of Canada's government were closely
>modeled off of a Native American document/form of government (Algonquin?).
>This agreement was binding among a nation of tribes that were very promptly
>decimated and placed on reservations by both countries; where they remain
>today. Neither country can very proudly lay claim to their "original" form
>of government.
Uh, yeah, right (he said, backing away slowly from the foaming induhvidual)
and the ancient egyptians had gliders and electricity. (mutters something
about the state of education and the PC crud they are feeding kids these days)
But seriously Democracy (note the name of the form of government itself is
Greek) has a history stretching back to ancient Greece. Rome was a Republic
(for a while, Senators anyone?). We get the idea of written law from waaayyyy
back (Hammurabbi [sp?], king of Babylonia).
And the idea of universal rights can be traced to the likes of Locke, and
other enlightenment philosophers, and limits on the power of the state
(current lineage) from the Magna Carta (England AD1215).
Our government derives from these sources not some farcical aquatic ceremony
(Python reference, never mind).
Even the current PC idea of the Native Americans as a great peaceful people
(see the nausiating distortion of history that is Disney's Pocahontas) traces
its roots back to some rather foolish notions of Jean-Jacques Rousseau.
Hobbes was quite right though when he described the natural life of man as
"Nasty, brutish and short".
Adam Littman
AHA someone finally said the N word, as happens in any sufficiently long
thread, though admittedly not usually in a legitimate historical context.
In article <33d9308e...@nntp.netcom.ca>, NOS-me...@netcom.caPAM
(David Thompson) wrote:
>
> Hey now, we hate the French as much as you Yanks do, but with far
"Does anyone know we hate the French, we fight wars against them! Did all
those men die in vain on the fields of Agincort (sp?)? Was the man who burnt
Joan of Arc simply wasting matches"
-Blackadder III, the episode he poisoned the Scarlet Pimpernel in
>more reason. What other country would have the gall to put out a stamp
>commemorating De Gaulle's speech to Quebec, where he fanned the fires
I think it should take a bit more than a simple majority of people in some
area to secede from a country. I mean there is a certain absurdity in the
idea. Suppose I and the members of this town (Ithaca) voted to secede from the
US, think it would stick?
"All revolutions are illegal in the third person, 'Their illegal revolution' "
-I forget who said that first.
>of separatism and caused endless headaches for Canada? We should have
>let the Nazis wreck the place for another few years before we went
>over and liberated them.
>
>On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:06:38 -0400, AntiSpam
><Machine_tha...@PING.net> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>
>>But seriously, thank you so *very* much for giving us hockey. :-) Too
>>bad all of your teams are leaving Canada to play here. What a *pity*.
>>;-( Now, go run along and play with France in the "nobody cares" play
>>room. :-6
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>____________________________________________
> 'Give me back the Berlin Wall,
> Give me Stalin or Saint Paul.
> I've seen the future, baby,
> It is murder.'
> - Leonard Cohen, "The Future"
>
> To email me, remove the capital letters from my address.
___________
David Thompson
On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 21:06:38 GMT, al...@cornell.edu (Adam Littman)
wrote:
>In article <33d258ce...@nntp.netcom.ca>, NOS-me...@netcom.caPAM (David Thompson) wrote:
>> Ah, so because these rights were universal in the eyes of the men
>>who created the Bill of Rights, they are therefore universal for the
>>entire world. Thank you, oh Americano, for showing the rest of the
>
>Intended to be, not necessarily is (which you would have noticed had you read
>carefully), and last time I checked my name wasn't Thomas Jefferson, Ben
>Franklin or Samuel Adams (i.e. for the slow among us I am not one of the
>founding fathers, please read the above in a snearing, sarcastic voice), I
>didn't write it I just admire it. And also last time I checked you Canadians
>_are_ still living in darkness :-) (Just a joke, it was too good a
>straightline to pass up).
I admire it too, though I recognize it for what it was: a
propaganda piece designed for narrow political ends. Brilliant,
nonetheless. I admire them too for pitching the monarchy (even if they
waffled and offered the crown to Washington for a while); we're still
the subjects of that degenerate family the House of Hanover, aka.
Windsor.
>
>And frankly I am sick of Canadians bitching and moaning about America, you
>derive enourmous benefits by your proximity, like a place to escape your
>insanely high tarrifs, not to mention the fact that you can skimp on your
>military budget, I mean who is going to invade Canada without taking the US
>down first? And if we lost you wouldn't have a chance.
Yes, yes, we know you'll protect us if Siberia or Greenland
invades Canada. We appreciate that from the bottom of our hearts,
believe me.
It's also fun to buy things cheaply in your border towns and come
back to our universal health care system and cities with 1/20th your
crime rates. I guess it's the best of both worlds. ;)
Note: I'm not really anti-American, I just like to tweak your
collective noses from time to time.
Wayne Hixson
In article <33d3b250...@nntp.netcom.ca>, NOS-me...@netcom.caPAM
says...
> It's also fun to buy things cheaply in your border towns and come
> back to our universal health care system and cities with 1/20th your
> crime rates. I guess it's the best of both worlds. ;)
>
care?? (just 'cause you can get it so much faster?)
Twin Ion Engine
Please take this thread out of the newsgroup....or change the title...thanks.
Adam Littman
In article <33d3b250...@nntp.netcom.ca>, NOS-me...@netcom.caPAM (David
> Yes, yes, we know you'll protect us if Siberia or Greenland
>invades Canada. We appreciate that from the bottom of our hearts,
>believe me.
>back to our universal health care system and cities with 1/20th your
>crime rates. I guess it's the best of both worlds. ;)
Well there is not an immediate threat of invasion, of course even when the
Soviets were a threat why would they want Canada?
Try not to get sick during the weeks of the year your hospitals are shut down
from running out of money. And if I need a CAT scan for my cat I know which
country to go to.
P.S. Happy to sell to you, just keep those counterfeit American coins you make
north of the border.
> Note: I'm not really anti-American, I just like to tweak your
>collective noses from time to time.
And vice-versa here :-)
Joel Adams
In article <5qnr9s$r...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, Adam Littman
<al...@cornell.edu> writes
>
>Actually alot of the Bill of Rights is intended to declare what is universally
>right and wrong, it doesn't create the rights listed, it just reaffirms them,
>whether you agree with them or not is another matter. The Constitution is
>legally binding only on our own government, but that is a matter of law not
>right and wrong. A government can make any law they want to but they cannot
>dictate morality. And yes the rest of the world takes alot of notice. America
>has stood as an inspiration to the world. A demonstration of the success of
>the principles on which it wa founded.
Ehm... HAte to break this to you but as an ordinary person in Europe I
should say noone takes no notice of the American constitution. Its just
a document. I would never deny that some political scientists and the
like studied it but ordinary people don't think about it at all.
The american political system isn't viewed with that much respect
either. Europe's political traditions and practices of democracy tend to
use systems with satrong parliaments rather than executive power being
with a president - even the french president can be severly limited by
parliament.
This isn't intended as an insult or anything but (and I can only speak
for western Europe since thats all I know) America isn't viewed with
that muich respect in the world.
Again I stress I mean no insult but time and time again I see this
prevailing American attitude that the rest of the world respects them
and sees them as a good example to follow. America is viewed more as an
neccessary inconvienance than a good thing. In Britain amongst ordinary
people there is a fair amount of anti-american feeling (and Britain is
one of the most pro-american countries in Europe).
--
Joel Adams
David Thompson
On Sun, 20 Jul 1997 16:21:34 GMT, twi...@imperial.navy.squadron (Twin
Ion Engine) wrote:
<snip>
>
>Please take this thread out of the newsgroup....or change the title...thanks.
>
I'm sorry, I know I should be posting about how much I hate
Windows'95 or how evil Derek Smart is. I'll be better from now on.
David Thompson
On Sun, 20 Jul 1997 17:45:39 GMT, al...@cornell.edu (Adam Littman)
wrote:
>
>Well there is not an immediate threat of invasion, of course even when the
>Soviets were a threat why would they want Canada?
>
>Try not to get sick during the weeks of the year your hospitals are shut down
>from running out of money. And if I need a CAT scan for my cat I know which
>country to go to.
Funny, I don't remember the local hospitals running out of money
recently. I do remember the story about the woman in Florida who sold
a kidney for $30,000 so she could pay her medical bills. How
enlightened a system she must have...then there's the friend of mine
in Long Island who lived with an unknown illness for weeks because her
HMO wouldn't pay for the medical tests. God, I wish I had that up
here!
>
>P.S. Happy to sell to you, just keep those counterfeit American coins you make
>north of the border.
>
>> Note: I'm not really anti-American, I just like to tweak your
>>collective noses from time to time.
>
>And vice-versa here :-)
>
Indeed, except we don't have to make things up, the reality is food
enough for the fire. <g>
> ___________
> Adam Littman / ^ \
> AL...@cornell.edu /\ / \ /\
> /__\__/___\__/__\
> / \( ) ( )/ \
> \ /\ o /\ /
> \ / \( )/ \ /
> "Four minutes twenty-two seconds, \/____\_/____\/
> Baldric, you owe me a groat" \ \ /
> --Blackadder \ / \ /
> ---------
Adam Littman
In article <VkKZpHAo...@adamsfam.demon.co.uk>, Joel Adams <Jo...@adamsfam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <5qnr9s$r...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, Adam Littman
><al...@cornell.edu> writes
>>
>>Actually alot of the Bill of Rights is intended to declare what is universally
>
>>right and wrong, it doesn't create the rights listed, it just reaffirms them,
>>whether you agree with them or not is another matter. The Constitution is
>>legally binding only on our own government, but that is a matter of law not
>>right and wrong. A government can make any law they want to but they cannot
>>dictate morality. And yes the rest of the world takes alot of notice. America
>>has stood as an inspiration to the world. A demonstration of the success of
>>the principles on which it wa founded.
>
>Ehm... HAte to break this to you but as an ordinary person in Europe I
>should say noone takes no notice of the American constitution. Its just
>a document. I would never deny that some political scientists and the
>like studied it but ordinary people don't think about it at all.
Few people here take any notice of it either, but when it comes time for an
overthrow of a ruling power, or to reduce the power of a King the people doing
it often use the American revolution as inspiration.
>The american political system isn't viewed with that much respect
>either. Europe's political traditions and practices of democracy tend to
>use systems with satrong parliaments rather than executive power being
>with a president - even the french president can be severly limited by
>parliament.
I wasn't saying that the system itself was intended to be universal, just the
rights affirmed in the constitution.
>This isn't intended as an insult or anything but (and I can only speak
>for western Europe since thats all I know) America isn't viewed with
>that muich respect in the world.
Fair enough, we have alot of contempt for you over here too. Good luck with
the Euro. It is providing me with alot of laughs watching Europe reject the
lesons of history and sinking further and further into socialism.
> Again I stress I mean no insult but time and time again I see this
>prevailing American attitude that the rest of the world respects them
>and sees them as a good example to follow. America is viewed more as an
Actually the popular view is that you have contempt for us and our culture
(attempting to ban US movies in France comes to mind). Until you get into
trouble (WWI, WWII, etc), and need us to pull your fat from the fire. How many
weeks do you think you could have held off the Soviets if we hadn't provided
nukes for you?
I notice we never did get paid back for all those post-war loans.
>neccessary inconvienance than a good thing. In Britain amongst ordinary
>people there is a fair amount of anti-american feeling (and Britain is
>one of the most pro-american countries in Europe).
___________
Adam Littman
In article <33d2bab3...@nntp.netcom.ca>, NOS-me...@netcom.caPAM (David Thompson) wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Jul 1997 17:45:39 GMT, al...@cornell.edu (Adam Littman)
>wrote:
>>Well there is not an immediate threat of invasion, of course even when the
>>Soviets were a threat why would they want Canada?
>>
>>Try not to get sick during the weeks of the year your hospitals are shut down
>>from running out of money. And if I need a CAT scan for my cat I know which
>>country to go to.
>
> Funny, I don't remember the local hospitals running out of money
>recently. I do remember the story about the woman in Florida who sold
>a kidney for $30,000 so she could pay her medical bills. How
Sounds like something out of the tabloids and MIB notwithstanding you
shouldn't take them seriously.
>enlightened a system she must have...then there's the friend of mine
>in Long Island who lived with an unknown illness for weeks because her
>HMO wouldn't pay for the medical tests. God, I wish I had that up
>here!
Hey no argument on the HMOs, "take two aspirin, go home and die cheaply
please".
They are practcing medicine without a licence if you ask me.
D Rapp
If you check historical fact, the U.S. document was written from the Native
American version. Some items are direct quotes. Nothing "foaming" about it.
Simply a statement of fact as recorded in history. The rest about the reservations
is also fact. They were definitely a warring people that, in this part of the
Americas, were putting those differences aside and trying to form a true nation.
Your quite eloquent quotes still don't justify decimating a civilization. Learn
real history, not the one distorted in favor of the victors. I honestly can't
believe, with all of your knowledgable quotes, that you didn't know this.
Anyway, this is getting "off-topic" for rpgs; so I suppose it should end before
others get too upset. Oh, as for Pocahantas movie, I agree. Not exactly for the
same reasons. It was a joke. Pocahantas was all of about 12 years old and
never had a great love affair as depicted, etc., etc.
Dan
Mark Asher
snip
>>This isn't intended as an insult or anything but (and I can only speak
>>for western Europe since thats all I know) America isn't viewed with
>>that muich respect in the world.
Hell, the French revere Jerry Lewis and Mickey Rourke. That speaks
volumes, and none of it complimentary.
Look at it this way: Here in the States we don't have language police
guarding our language against the incursion of French words. In France
they have some panel of idiots who declare certain words (usually
english words) to be illegal and official publications and signs
aren't allowed to use them by law.
C'mon, France -- they're french fries, not pomme des frites! Wake up
and stop being so superior. That's always a sign of an inferiority
complex.
When you go to France to view the Arc de Triumphe, you can also see
the Arc de McDonald's nearby. Veni, vidi, franchisi -- we came, we
saw, we franchised your ass. Nuff said.
James Reedy
Soltan Gris (sg...@nospam-blkbox.com) wrote:
Hey, Soltan, Hows things with the Apparatus these days, have you taken care
of that little problem with Jetro Heller yet?
: Soltan Gris
Cheers JimR
Philth
Joel Adams wrote:
> Again I stress I mean no insult but time and time again I see this
> prevailing American attitude that the rest of the world respects them
> and sees them as a good example to follow. America is viewed more as
> an
> neccessary inconvienance than a good thing. In Britain amongst
> ordinary
> people there is a fair amount of anti-american feeling (and Britain is
>
> one of the most pro-american countries in Europe).
> --
> Joel Adams
The UN seems to think otherwise, we all seem to know how to 'act' ..
Thus, all
the other UN countries seem to 'back us up' .. If you really saw our
ways as an
inconvienance you wouldn't be agreeing with everything we do around the
world.
Think about it.
Mike Herauf
> Few people here take any notice of it either, but when it comes time
> for an
> overthrow of a ruling power, or to reduce the power of a King the
> people doing
> it often use the American revolution as inspiration.
Along with America's Troops, Tanks, and Air Power.
Bjorn Tore Oren
Well, you'll certainly have to give a lot of credit for the ideas
expressed during modern day revolutions to European thinkers and to that
mother of all revolutions, the French one.
However, when it comes to actually helping out in defence of democratic
ideals with troops and hardware, we Europeans have a tendency to just
sit about and wait for America to do the dirty work.
*Then* we go and shake our puny fists at the Americans for being global
bullies who throw their weight around needlessly.
I think it's time Europe takes the kind of responsibility that befits a
continent with three of the six most powerful economies on the planet.
(Great Britain, Germany and France.)
Sorry for ranting and for being horribly off topic, but I'm just so sick
and tired of the USA vs. Europe flamewars that plague the Usenet - and I
could smell another one coming now.
Regards,
Bjorn Tore
--
Bjorn Tore Oren, bj...@link.no
SOL Games, http://www.games.no
"On a Hell-bent journey to the centre of the Earth!" - Fu Manchu
Vincent Archer
David Thompson (NOS-me...@netcom.caPAM) wrote:
> of separatism and caused endless headaches for Canada? We should have
> let the Nazis wreck the place for another few years before we went
> over and liberated them.
Given the way we were heading, if you had waited a few years, we probably
would have stood with the Nazis and fought you like hell...
Blame it on the Brits. They gave De Gaulle all he needed to become The Man
after the war. Then the first thing the latest "Gaullist" president does
after coming to power is to fire a few test nukes :)
--
Vincent ARCHER Email: arc...@frmug.org
David Thompson
On Mon, 21 Jul 1997 04:14:31 GMT, al...@cornell.edu (Adam Littman)
wrote:
>>
>> Funny, I don't remember the local hospitals running out of money
>>recently. I do remember the story about the woman in Florida who sold
>>a kidney for $30,000 so she could pay her medical bills. How
>
>Sounds like something out of the tabloids and MIB notwithstanding you
>shouldn't take them seriously.
Actually, off the CNN web page. I can get the URL if you're
interested.
>
>>enlightened a system she must have...then there's the friend of mine
>>in Long Island who lived with an unknown illness for weeks because her
>>HMO wouldn't pay for the medical tests. God, I wish I had that up
>>here!
>
>Hey no argument on the HMOs, "take two aspirin, go home and die cheaply
>please".
>
>They are practcing medicine without a licence if you ask me.
>
The irony of the American health care system is that it costs more
per capita than ours does, even though ours is universal and in the
U.S. tens of millions fall through the cracks.
> ___________
> Adam Littman / ^ \
> AL...@cornell.edu /\ / \ /\
> /__\__/___\__/__\
> / \( ) ( )/ \
> \ /\ o /\ /
> \ / \( )/ \ /
> "Four minutes twenty-two seconds, \/____\_/____\/
> Baldric, you owe me a groat" \ \ /
> --Blackadder \ / \ /
> ---------