Supreme Commander Forged Alliance, apparently "MTZ_UI" is a cheat GPGnet cannot deal with
John Doe
planning to play Forged Alliance, so I was reading the GPGnet
forum. Came across some articles about a user interface (UI) cheat
called "MTZ_UI" by Mortiz. Normally, a user interface mod is no
problem because it only alters the game for the person who uses
it. But, the mod made by Mortiz is UI only and yet it allows
cheating, apparently by exploiting some programming flaw. You do
not have to be reconnaissance in order to know when your opponents
build certain critical structures like nukes or high-level
aircraft factories. So after reading about it on their forum, it
is right there on their forum, in fact I posted nothing new, I
started a new thread about it. I tried to point out that a
pre-existing utility that keeps track of players and the mods they
use would work just fine for keeping track of anyone who uses the
cheat disguised as a UI only mod. About a dozen people replied
within a few hours, all but two of them were interested in the
subject and wanted to discuss it. But then the thread just
vanished from the GPGnet, General FA Discussion forum.
So, here I am, running back to USENET to whine about being
censored on a stoopid web forum :(
Gandalf Parker
$14934$c3e...@news.astraweb.com:
> So, here I am, running back to USENET to whine about being
> censored on a stoopid web forum :(
That sucks.
But having been on both sides of the "forum censorship" thing Im not really
feeling pity. If its their forum, on their machines, then they should be
able to decide how they want the forum to "feel" to the general public. I
certainly would operate that way if I put one up. Ive seen good forums die
from too much "free speech" from the wrong elements.
Luckily, that is balanced by the fact that there are other forums which
tend to love such content. Or, you always have UseNet. And if comp.*
becomes a problem then thats what the alt.* groups are for.
Your thread did sound like an interesting subject though.
Gandalf Parker
--
I used to make fun of people addicted to soap operas on tv."I have to
watch, I have to know what they are going to do next, I yell at the tv, I
know most of it isnt real but its so addictive." HAHAHAHA
Then I realized that for me its Usenet.
John Doe
> John Doe <jdoe usenetlove.invalid> contributed
>> So, here I am, running back to USENET to whine about being
>> censored on a stoopid web forum :(
>
> That sucks.
> But having been on both sides of the "forum censorship" thing Im
> not really feeling pity. If its their forum, on their machines,
> then they should be able to decide how they want the forum to
> "feel" to the general public.
If you want to dwell on that issue... The question is not whether
they should be able to decide, the question is what they should
decide.
> I certainly would operate that way if I put one up. Ive seen
> good forums die from too much "free speech" from the wrong
> elements.
You can't stop the signal.
On the Internet, power is in information, not trying to hide from
it. Besides, I posted only information that was already on their
forum, stuff I read there in preparation for play. I just
introduced the simple idea that PlayerTrack (that I read about and
was planning to use) could easily solve their problem by listing
UI mods as well as the other mods that players have used.
> Luckily, that is balanced by the fact that there are other
> forums which tend to love such content.
Like trying to prevent cheating? Seems to me that should be one of
their top priorities. And according to other posters, they are not
solving the problem about the cheating UI mod. Trying to run and
hide from the subject will not help.
--
>
>
> Gandalf Parker
> --
> I used to make fun of people addicted to soap operas on tv."I have to
> watch, I have to know what they are going to do next, I yell at the tv, I
> know most of it isnt real but its so addictive." HAHAHAHA
> Then I realized that for me its Usenet.
>
>
> Path: news.astraweb.com!border5.newsrouter.astraweb.com!news.glorb.com!news2.glorb.com!news.kjsl.com!news-xfer.nntp.sonic.net!posts.news.sonic.net!nnrp0.nntp.sonic.net!not-for-mail
> Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic
> Subject: Re: Supreme Commander Forged Alliance, apparently "MTZ_UI" is a cheat GPGnet cannot deal with
> From: Gandalf Parker <gandalf the.dead.ISP.of.Community.net>
> References: <0173d3de$0$14934$c3e8da3 news.astraweb.com>
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Gandalf Parker
$26797$c3e...@news.astraweb.com:
>> That sucks.
>> But having been on both sides of the "forum censorship" thing Im
>> not really feeling pity. If its their forum, on their machines,
>> then they should be able to decide how they want the forum to
>> "feel" to the general public.
>
> If you want to dwell on that issue... The question is not whether
> they should be able to decide, the question is what they should
> decide.
Exactly. But to present it from the other side:
"Every scale has two extreme settings and both extremes are usually bad.
So the decision needs to be NOT if you will or wont, but where on the
sliding scale you would prefer the forum to appear."
>> I certainly would operate that way if I put one up. Ive seen
>> good forums die from too much "free speech" from the wrong
>> elements.
>
> You can't stop the signal.
I agree again. Its worthless to try and stop the signal. But no business
HAS to provide it a home either. A game companies forum is different than
a public discussion forum. The game company wants a place where new
gamers can come get answers and enjoy the product. And where people
interested in the game will want the product. That might seem crass to
you but when a business is paying for the servers it is the reality.
>> Luckily, that is balanced by the fact that there are other
>> forums which tend to love such content.
>
> Like trying to prevent cheating? Seems to me that should be one of
> their top priorities. And according to other posters, they are not
> solving the problem about the cheating UI mod. Trying to run and
> hide from the subject will not help.
I wish that was true. I really do. Unfortunately it actually does help.
Believe me I have argued both sides of this to companies Ive moderated
for. And as much as I wish the world to operate in the hacker/open-
source/anarchistic internet that some see it to be, it tends to come up
aginst real numbers generated by the statistic crunchers and college
grads with business degrees. There are definite advantages to "hide from
the subject" that translates into real dollars.
You think of their forum as a support forum. Which it probably is. But if
the company is running it then you have to also think of it as an
advertising forum. And if thats not free enough then you have to go to
another forum.
Gandalf Parker
--
There is REALITY and there is VIRTUAL REALITY.
There is FREE SPEECH and there is VIRTUALLY FREE SPEECH.
Please keep in mind that in each case one is real and the other is not.
John Doe
> John Doe <jd...@usenetlove.invalid> contributed
>> Gandalf Parker <gan...@the.dead.ISP.of.Community.net> wrote:
Instead of all the squirming and evading, why not just make
PlayerTrack track UI mods? Looks like they are lazy and/or do not
care about cheating.
--
Gandalf Parker
$8163$c3e...@news.astraweb.com:
> Instead of all the squirming and evading, why not just make
> PlayerTrack track UI mods? Looks like they are lazy and/or do not
> care about cheating.
Completely different departments?
Kilgaard
All online games require a certain critical mass of players otherwise
they simply die out. Some (less than ethical) players will only play a
game where they have an unfair advantage over other players. Locking out
the cheaters will directly reduce their player base, and as a commercial
decision, that may not be a wise choice.
John Doe
> John Doe <jdoe usenetlove.invalid> contributed
>> Instead of all the squirming and evading, why not just make
>> PlayerTrack track UI mods? Looks like they are lazy and/or do
>> not care about cheating.
>
> Completely different departments?
I am talking about stopping someone from cheating during play,
Grounder. WHAT'S WRONG WITH ASKING GAS POWERED GAMES GPGNET TO
HELP STOP CHEATING?
Do you play RTS? How often do you host games? A host actually buys
the game and then attracts players who have paid for the game. If
you cheat, you wreck the game. WE NEED TO KNOW WHO IS CHEATING. Do
you think that a pretty forum where half the members have not even
bought the game (like some Third Worlders who enjoy the community
and have simply/easily pirated the game) is more important to
sales of the game than the availability of online play for paying
customers?
As a game host, my motive is to attract paying customers.
Discussing the subject on their website could help put pressure on
the makers of PlayerTrack to include tracking UI mods, and that
would do a lot to solve the problem. Gas Powered Games GPGnet
administrators/moderators/censors who are not willing to help
curtail cheating should be dismissed.
--
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> Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic
> Subject: Re: Supreme Commander Forged Alliance, apparently "MTZ_UI" is a cheat GPGnet cannot deal with
> From: Gandalf Parker <gandalf the.dead.ISP.of.Community.net>
> References: <0173d3de$0$14934$c3e8da3 news.astraweb.com> <Xns9CE5408EAA666gandalfparker 199.245.68.61> <00a7aa3b$0$26797$c3e8da3 news.astraweb.com> <Xns9CE63A8DB95ABgandalfparker 199.245.68.61> <008b78b6$0$8163$c3e8da3 news.astraweb.com>
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Gandalf Parker
$13004$c3e...@news.astraweb.com:
> Gandalf Parker <gandalf the.dead.ISP.of.Community.net> wrote:
>
>> John Doe <jdoe usenetlove.invalid> contributed
>
>>> Instead of all the squirming and evading, why not just make
>>> PlayerTrack track UI mods? Looks like they are lazy and/or do
>>> not care about cheating.
>>
>> Completely different departments?
>
> I am talking about stopping someone from cheating during play,
> Grounder. WHAT'S WRONG WITH ASKING GAS POWERED GAMES GPGNET TO
> HELP STOP CHEATING?
There is nothing wrong with asking that. Or suggesting ways to do it. It
is however a slightly different consideration to do it in public.
Sometimes such posts are not to the company but to the player base in
general with an obvious effort to incite a crowd action of some sort.
> Do you play RTS? How often do you host games?
Actually I run an internet server. At the moment I am hosting 39
multiplayer games and two online worlds. Im also a paid moderator on
various forums which have included game companies in the past. So Im on
both sides of this discussion.
> A host actually buys
> the game and then attracts players who have paid for the game. If
> you cheat, you wreck the game. WE NEED TO KNOW WHO IS CHEATING. Do
> you think that a pretty forum where half the members have not even
> bought the game (like some Third Worlders who enjoy the community
> and have simply/easily pirated the game) is more important to
> sales of the game than the availability of online play for paying
> customers?
Actually yes. In a game of that type, its the pre-sales which are MOST
important to that company. And the post-sale enjoyment is secondary. They
would tend to want a forum where the public posts sing the praises of the
product and its distribution. The forum attached to the distribution
comany tends to be found by people researching the product for purchase.
The deeper followup support would tend to come from forums run by others
that tend to be found by people after they have already gotten the game.
> As a game host, my motive is to attract paying customers.
> Discussing the subject on their website could help put pressure on
> the makers of PlayerTrack to include tracking UI mods, and that
> would do a lot to solve the problem. Gas Powered Games GPGnet
> administrators/moderators/censors who are not willing to help
> curtail cheating should be dismissed.
And that tends to make it much clearer to me what happened. Discussing it
publicly on THEIR website to put pressure on THEM tends to be a deadend
in general on the internet. Ive been admining systems on the internet for
as long as its been called internet, and Ive seen that over and over and
over. For that matter, you see it in the real world also. People who get
mad because they arent allowed to make a ruckus AT a companies site or in
front of a companies building.
Go for it if you want. But angry crowds, either virtually or in the real
world, dont work as well as a private letter in my experience unless its
for the purpose of raising public awareness and hurting the company.
Either way, you cant really get mad and say that the company should allow
it for their own good. :)
Gandalf Parker
Gandalf Parker
news:lGxXm.50220$cd7....@newsfe04.iad:
>>>>> forums which tend to love such content.
>>>> Like trying to prevent cheating? Seems to me that should be one
>>>> of their top priorities. And according to other posters, they
>>>> are not solving the problem about the cheating UI mod. Trying
>>>> to run and hide from the subject will not help.
>>> I wish that was true. I really do. Unfortunately it actually
>>> does help. Believe me I have argued both sides of this to
>>> companies Ive moderated for. And as much as I wish the world to
>>> operate in the hacker/open- source/anarchistic internet that
>>> some see it to be, it tends to come up aginst real numbers
>>> generated by the statistic crunchers and college grads with
>>> business degrees. There are definite advantages to "hide from
>>> the subject" that translates into real dollars.
>>
>> Instead of all the squirming and evading, why not just make
>> PlayerTrack track UI mods? Looks like they are lazy and/or do not
>> care about cheating.
>
> All online games require a certain critical mass of players otherwise
> they simply die out. Some (less than ethical) players will only play a
> game where they have an unfair advantage over other players. Locking
> out the cheaters will directly reduce their player base, and as a
> commercial decision, that may not be a wise choice.
Unless its a really tiny niche market Im not sure on that.
But I guess it depends on the game. And the cheat. A game such as Diablo
II where the cheats involved players getting items and reading maps
might be overlooked. But even in the same game, cheats which allow one
player to easily kill another player would be something to avoid.
Because of those two types of cheats, one can actually draw new players
in while the other chases them off.
In both cases, the topic of whether or not it should be allowed to be
discussed publicly on that company-owned forum is a different matter.
The company tends to have to have a clear line on the subjects of things
like cheating. They tend not to want to say one cheat is ok and another
one isnt. No matter what the individual people involved actually think,
the COMPANY has to be against cheating.
What often turns out to be a problem is when people feel its useful to
discuss cheating and how its done. The posters attitude tends to be that
its being helpful, and "if the company doesnt want it, they should
program the game to stop it". But the people handling the forums tend to
be the public relations and marketing folks which are a far distance
from the programmers. A request might get sent to the programmers but
the public discussion of how to cheat in the game is still likely to get
deleted even if it was considered (rarely) helpful.
Gandalf Parker
John Doe
that it was not offensive or provocative, it was
to-the-point/efficient as usual.
Anyone who is looking to buy the game and is able to do research
will much more easily find this thread than anything on the GPGnet
forum.
Now, getting back to the subject... Does anyone know about the
PlayerTrack mod for Supreme Commander Forged Alliance (FA)? Seems
to me that having it track UI mods would solve the problem of the
UI only cheat called "MTZ_UI" by Mortiz. Normally, a user
interface mod is no problem because it only alters the game for
the person who uses it. But, the mod made by Mortiz is UI only and
yet it allows cheating, apparently by exploiting some programming
flaw. You do not have to be reconnaissance in order to know when
your opponents build certain critical structures like nukes or
high-level aircraft factories.
Actually, so far I do not see anything about tracking any mods in
the PlayerTrack mod.
--
Gandalf Parker <gandalf the.dead.ISP.of.Community.net> wrote:
> John Doe <jdoe usenetlove.invalid> contributed wisdom to news:00aaa2bf$0
> $13004$c3e8da3 news.astraweb.com:
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> Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic
> Subject: Re: Supreme Commander Forged Alliance, apparently "MTZ_UI" is a cheat GPGnet cannot deal with
> From: Gandalf Parker <gandalf the.dead.ISP.of.Community.net>
> References: <0173d3de$0$14934$c3e8da3 news.astraweb.com> <Xns9CE5408EAA666gandalfparker 199.245.68.61> <00a7aa3b$0$26797$c3e8da3 news.astraweb.com> <Xns9CE63A8DB95ABgandalfparker 199.245.68.61> <008b78b6$0$8163$c3e8da3 news.astraweb.com> <Xns9CE73ED662199gandalfparker 199.245.68.61> <00aaa2bf$0$13004$c3e8da3 news.astraweb.com>
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John Doe
> Kilgaard <Kilgaard hotmail.com> contributed wisdom to
...
>> All online games require a certain critical mass of players
>> otherwise they simply die out. Some (less than ethical) players
>> will only play a game where they have an unfair advantage over
>> other players. Locking out the cheaters will directly reduce
>> their player base, and as a commercial decision, that may not
>> be a wise choice.
>
> Unless its a really tiny niche market Im not sure on that.
Some of the stuff you have suggested is at least that difficult to
believe, Grounder.
> What often turns out to be a problem is when people feel its
> useful to discuss cheating and how its done. The posters
> attitude tends to be that its being helpful, and "if the company
> doesnt want it, they should program the game to stop it". But
> the people handling the forums tend to be the public relations
> and marketing folks which are a far distance from the
> programmers. A request might get sent to the programmers but the
> public discussion of how to cheat in the game is still likely to
> get deleted even if it was considered (rarely) helpful.
Do you know anything about the PlayerTrack mod for Supreme
Commander Forged Alliance, Grounder? The PlayerTrack mod is well
known by many of the players on Gas Powered Games GPGnet. Do you
know of a better forum to discuss it?
--
>
> Gandalf Parker
>
>
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> Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic
> Subject: Re: Supreme Commander Forged Alliance, apparently "MTZ_UI" is a cheat GPGnet cannot deal with
> From: Gandalf Parker <gandalf the.dead.ISP.of.Community.net>
> References: <0173d3de$0$14934$c3e8da3 news.astraweb.com> <Xns9CE5408EAA666gandalfparker 199.245.68.61> <00a7aa3b$0$26797$c3e8da3 news.astraweb.com> <Xns9CE63A8DB95ABgandalfparker 199.245.68.61> <008b78b6$0$8163$c3e8da3 news.astraweb.com> <lGxXm.50220$cd7.14313 newsfe04.iad>
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