Congratulations to Independence War 2!
CM
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/bestof_2001/p3_16.html
Rico
"CM" <cm...@loadzone.org> wrote in message
news:u2mq4s5...@news.supernews.com...
> IW2 wins best sci-fi simulation of 2001 at Gamespot:
>
> http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/bestof_2001/p3_16.html
>
>
What's the going price for IW2 these days, since it's been out for a while?
I'm not a fan of Newtonian physics-based sims, but this one has had so much
praise I'd like to give it a shot. Don't want to be overcharged though
(damn, I sound like a commercial for Progressive Insurance).
Rico
"rrevved" <ed_...@nope.com> wrote in message
news:6nmn2uo3mvhurpul3...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 18:25:40 -0500, "Rico" <Troop...@bugplanet.com>
wrote:
> in your cart, it deducts 20% for a total of $15.92
>
> Independence War 2: Edge of Chaos Jewel Case
>
> Publisher Infogrames
> Availability In Stock
> Packaging Jewel Case / Game Manual
>
> Compuexpert Price
> $19.90
>
Excellent. That's a steal ... thanks!
ji...@hgea.org
wrote:
>
Suggest getting it from CompuExpert. They have it listed at $19.95 a
week or so ago, though I think it is the European imported version.
The US version is still full price as far as I know.
zipless
zipless
"Rico" <Troop...@bugplanet.com> wrote in message
news:pvSW7.75$843....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
Memnoch
>IW2 wins best sci-fi simulation of 2001 at Gamespot:
>
>http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/bestof_2001/p3_16.html
>
A well deserved award. I wonder where BCM fits into this? I had a look through
the site, even under dubious awards for most disappointing release, nada!
Chris
Best hissy fit of the Millenium?
C
Derek Smart (3000AD)
<mem...@nospamforme.ntlworld..com> wrote:
>On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:29:57 -0800, "CM" <cm...@loadzone.org> wrote:
>
>>IW2 wins best sci-fi simulation of 2001 at Gamespot:
>>
>>http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/bestof_2001/p3_16.html
>>
>
>A well deserved award. I wonder where BCM fits into this?
BCM wasn't even out at the time of those selections. And being
GameSpot, most likely won't have won anyway.
Dunno which idiot nominated it seeing that its merely a railed space
sim shooter. If anything, X:BTF should have won this award - or even
Mechwarrior.
>I had a look through the site, even under dubious awards for most disappointing release, nada!
No. But you can find IW2 in this category of nominations. Once again
lending credence to the oft ignored fact that graphics don't
necessarily sell games. Gameplay, more often than not, does.
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/bestof_2001/p2_09.html
*plonk*
Derek Smart Ph.D.
Designer/Lead Developer
www.3000ad.com
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build
bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce
bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." - Rich Cook
Dick Garage
<dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> wrote:
>BCM wasn't even out at the time of those selections. And being
>GameSpot, most likely won't have won anyway.
Most likely? Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaahahah!
Your game stinks Derek. Plain & simple. Now go back to VE to argue with the
kiddies.
--
"You guys know me, I have the tenacity of a refrigerator.
Each and every one of them is going to pay."
-Derek Smart, VE3D comment board, Nov. 2001.
Jak Crow
> IW2 wins best sci-fi simulation of 2001 at Gamespot:
>
> http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/bestof_2001/p3_16.html
How terrible for Derek.
fly135
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/bestof_2001/p3_17.html
"CM" <cm...@loadzone.org> wrote in message
news:u2mq4s5...@news.supernews.com...
fly135
"Rico" <Troop...@bugplanet.com> wrote in message
news:H3OW7.50$cU2....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
fly135
"Derek Smart (3000AD)" <dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> wrote in message
news:dg9p2u431uk58bs7o...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 28 Dec 2001 15:38:07 +0000, Memnoch
> <mem...@nospamforme.ntlworld..com> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:29:57 -0800, "CM" <cm...@loadzone.org> wrote:
> >
> >>IW2 wins best sci-fi simulation of 2001 at Gamespot:
> >>
> >>http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/bestof_2001/p3_16.html
> >>
> >
> >A well deserved award. I wonder where BCM fits into this?
>
> BCM wasn't even out at the time of those selections. And being
> GameSpot, most likely won't have won anyway.
>
> Dunno which idiot nominated it seeing that its merely a railed space
> sim shooter.
I think you're describing how your ships fly. Like slugs on rails.
C Dobbels
SNIP
>
> BCM wasn't even out at the time of those selections.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
11/25/2001
> And being GameSpot, most likely won't have won anyway.
>
Publisher: n/a Developer: Sir-tech Canada Genre: Role-Playing
Release Date: 11/15/2001
^^^^^^^^^^
Memnoch
>On Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:07:32 -0500, "Derek Smart (3000AD)"
><dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> wrote:
>
>>BCM wasn't even out at the time of those selections. And being
>>GameSpot, most likely won't have won anyway.
>
>Most likely? Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaahahah!
>
>Your game stinks Derek. Plain & simple. Now go back to VE to argue with the
>kiddies.
Wow! I got plonked for stating my opinion! Oh well, the filter will probably
break again in a day or two.
Memnoch
Jak Crow
<dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Dec 2001 15:38:07 +0000, Memnoch
><mem...@nospamforme.ntlworld..com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:29:57 -0800, "CM" <cm...@loadzone.org> wrote:
>>
>>>IW2 wins best sci-fi simulation of 2001 at Gamespot:
>>>
>>>http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/bestof_2001/p3_16.html
>>>
>>
>>A well deserved award. I wonder where BCM fits into this?
>
>BCM wasn't even out at the time of those selections. And being
>GameSpot, most likely won't have won anyway.
The only award it's likely to get is worst game of the year.
>Dunno which idiot nominated it seeing that its merely a railed space
>sim shooter. If anything, X:BTF should have won this award - or even
>Mechwarrior.
Sorry the truth hurts Derek. Poor you...
>>I had a look through the site, even under dubious awards for most disappointing release, nada!
>
>No. But you can find IW2 in this category of nominations.
Note: BEST GAME NO ONE PLAYED
BCM might get the latter portion of that sentence. I live content knowing
that more people will go out and buy IWar 2 because of that article, how sad
for you Derek.
>Once again lending credence to the oft ignored fact that graphics don't
>necessarily sell games. Gameplay, more often than not, does.
Your lack of comprehension shows again. IWar 2 has the graphics and the
gameplay, something you may want to learn about one day.
Juha Kuusela
> Dunno which idiot nominated it seeing that its merely a railed space
> sim shooter. If anything, X:BTF should have won this award - or even
> Mechwarrior.
Din't you once write that X:BTF was as fun as watching paint dry? Well,
everybody knows you don't have any consistensy, and what would you know
about space sims anyway...
>>I had a look through the site, even under dubious awards for most disappointing release, nada!
> No. But you can find IW2 in this category of nominations. Once again
> lending credence to the oft ignored fact that graphics don't
> necessarily sell games. Gameplay, more often than not, does.
> http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/bestof_2001/p2_09.html
"_Best game_ no one played". Reading compeherension my friend, reading
compherension.
> *plonk*
Is that a voice in your head?
--
_-"Never hate your enemy - it affects your judgment." - The Godfather III-_
- Juha Kuusela - juhkuus @ st.jyu.fi - http://www.jyu.fi/~juhkuus -
Derek Smart (3000AD)
<j54uh...@itutg.st45.j4y6u.fi> wrote:
>"Derek Smart (3000AD)" <dsm...@nospamformepobox.com> wrote:
>
>> Dunno which idiot nominated it seeing that its merely a railed space
>> sim shooter. If anything, X:BTF should have won this award - or even
>> Mechwarrior.
>
>Din't you once write that X:BTF was as fun as watching paint dry?
Yes. And?
>Well, everybody knows you don't have any consistensy, and what would you know
>about space sims anyway...
You're not very bright, are you?
Here, let me break it down for your obviously inferior and feeble mind
1. X:BTF, for what it is, is *more* of a sci-fi sim than IWar2
2. Me saying X:BTF is as boring as watching paint dry, has *nothing*
to do with my opinion of its sci-fi premise - the *entire* basis of my
original post.
Russy
"Memnoch" <mem...@nospamforme.ntlworld..com> wrote in message
news:3s7q2uk14fcd14ct9...@4ax.com...
> Wonder how he's going to wriggle out of this one?
By ignoring the facts, as usual
Jak Crow
<dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 11:17:13 +0000 (UTC), Juha Kuusela
><j54uh...@itutg.st45.j4y6u.fi> wrote:
>
>>"Derek Smart (3000AD)" <dsm...@nospamformepobox.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dunno which idiot nominated it seeing that its merely a railed space
>>> sim shooter. If anything, X:BTF should have won this award - or even
>>> Mechwarrior.
>>
>>Din't you once write that X:BTF was as fun as watching paint dry?
>
>Yes. And?
>
>>Well, everybody knows you don't have any consistensy, and what would you know
>>about space sims anyway...
>
>You're not very bright, are you?
>
>Here, let me break it down for your obviously inferior and feeble mind
>
>1. X:BTF, for what it is, is *more* of a sci-fi sim than IWar2
>
>2. Me saying X:BTF is as boring as watching paint dry, has *nothing*
>to do with my opinion of its sci-fi premise - the *entire* basis of my
>original post.
>
>*plonk*
You really, really hate Particle Systems, don't you?
Tom Dawkins
<new...@werewolves.org> writes
From his previous posts one could infer that he hates Frontier
Developments as well. It is an interesting trend since they are both
British firms, I think.
--
Tom Dawkins
Bill Huffman
> On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:39:16 GMT, Jak Crow <new...@werewolves.org> wrote:
>
> >>*plonk*
> >
> >You really, really hate Particle Systems, don't you?
>
> best of him.
He seems to hate everyone including himself. He just manipulates and uses people
that he thinks are his "friend", at the same time he's probably thinking how
superior he is compared to them because they let him do it.
Stephen Robertson
>
> http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/bestof_2001/p3_16.html
>
Thanks!
Best regards,
-- Steve
Stephen Robertson
Senior Designer
Particle Systems
Derek Smart (3000AD)
>IW2 wins best sci-fi simulation of 2001 at Gamespot:
>
>http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/bestof_2001/p3_16.html
Oh, thats just great. No IWar3. Just saw this on Avault.
"
UK developer Argonaut Games has announced the acquisition of Particle
Systems, a two-team games development company based in Sheffield with
40 employees. The founders of Particle, Michael Powell and Glyn
Williams, have produced games such as Powerdrome, SubWar 2050, Cholo,
and Warhead, as well as the award winning Independence War series.
Including the teams from Particle, Argonaut will employ over 210 game
developers.
Particle is currently developing the squad-based shooter EXO for PS2
under a development agreement with Infogrames Entertainment. EXO uses
Particle’s new Flux engine and is scheduled for release in fall 2002.
Particle is currently in negotiation with a number of publishers and
anticipates entering into a development agreement for its second game
in the near future.
The acquisition will cost Argonaut 2.4 million British pounds in cash
or cash equivalents plus 3.5 million Argonaut shares. As of July 31,
2001 Particle’s net liabilities were 800,000 British pounds and its
loss before taxes for the eight months ending July 31, 2001 was
200,000 British pounds. Argonaut anticipates the acquisition of
Particle will have a slightly negative impact on its results for the
current financial year and will make a positive contribution in the
full financial year ending July 31, 2003.
Erik
<dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:29:57 -0800, "CM" <cm...@loadzone.org> wrote:
>
>>IW2 wins best sci-fi simulation of 2001 at Gamespot:
>>
>>http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/bestof_2001/p3_16.html
>
>Oh, thats just great. No IWar3. Just saw this on Avault.
>
>"
>UK developer Argonaut Games has announced the acquisition of Particle
>Systems...
<snip>
Maybe we could get a Starglider3 instead.
On the other hand, I think Argonaut is doing console stuff these days.
In any case, good luck to the Particle Systems guys.
Desslock
news:osee4u8q3p5k1t12s...@4ax.com...
> >On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:29:57 -0800, "CM" <cm...@loadzone.org> wrote:
> >
> >>IW2 wins best sci-fi simulation of 2001 at Gamespot:
> >>
> >>http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/bestof_2001/p3_16.html
> >
> >Oh, thats just great. No IWar3. Just saw this on Avault.
> >
> >"
> >UK developer Argonaut Games has announced the acquisition of Particle
> >Systems...
> <snip>
>
> Maybe we could get a Starglider3 instead.
> On the other hand, I think Argonaut is doing console stuff these days.
> In any case, good luck to the Particle Systems guys.
Independence War 2, unfortunately, was a gigantic commercial bomb in the
U.S. It only sold a handful of copies.
Desslock
--
Desslock's RPG News: http://desslock.gamespot.com
New Gaming Industry Editorials on Fridays
DocScorpio
Desslock <dess...@THISCOMESOUTsympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:a27ig...@enews2.newsguy.com...
> "Erik" <erik@look_in_headers.org> wrote in message
> news:osee4u8q3p5k1t12s...@4ax.com...
> > >On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:29:57 -0800, "CM" <cm...@loadzone.org> wrote:
>
> Independence War 2, unfortunately, was a gigantic commercial bomb in the
> U.S. It only sold a handful of copies.
>
> Desslock
>
> --
> Desslock's RPG News: http://desslock.gamespot.com
>
> New Gaming Industry Editorials on Fridays
>
>
was clearly a good game and the people at Particle Systems (Stephen
Robertson and the others who post here and elsewhere) are about the most
helpful folks you could encounter anywhere on the net. Not only did they
provide outstanding support for IW2, but they also produced numerous
game-enhancing mods for it....and they continued to do this when it must
have been clear to them that the game was not going to be a big success. I
applaud them.
Please correct if I'm mistaken, but I guess their basic mistake was
developing a game in a genre that apparently has almost zero appeal to the
general gaming public. Has any FP space sim sold well in the last couple of
years? I don't believe that the FS series or SL did all that well.
Desslock
"DocScorpio" <DocSc...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:fQK18.19602$X_1.175...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
>
> Desslock <dess...@THISCOMESOUTsympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:a27ig...@enews2.newsguy.com...
> > "Erik" <erik@look_in_headers.org> wrote in message
> > news:osee4u8q3p5k1t12s...@4ax.com...
> > > >On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:29:57 -0800, "CM" <cm...@loadzone.org> wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> > Independence War 2, unfortunately, was a gigantic commercial bomb in the
> > U.S. It only sold a handful of copies.
> >
> >
> was clearly a good game and the people at Particle Systems (Stephen
> Robertson and the others who post here and elsewhere) are about the most
> helpful folks you could encounter anywhere on the net. Not only did they
> provide outstanding support for IW2, but they also produced numerous
> game-enhancing mods for it....and they continued to do this when it must
> have been clear to them that the game was not going to be a big success.
I
> applaud them.
Yep. That's why I said "unfortunately", heh.
> Please correct if I'm mistaken, but I guess their basic mistake was
> developing a game in a genre that apparently has almost zero appeal to the
> general gaming public. Has any FP space sim sold well in the last couple
of
> years? I don't believe that the FS series or SL did all that well.
I really wonder why the genre's been so thoroughly abandoned by gamers, but
it's really hit the skids over the past several years, but it's a pretty
recent development:
Descent Freespace (Freespace 1 - a 1998 release) sold well, as did the last
Wing Commander (late 1997) and X-wing Alliance (early 1999). XWA outsold
the other two by a large margin. But the genre's had one successive bomb
after another since then, and each release seems to do worse than the
others. FreeSpace 2 did, in retrospect, o.k., but sold less than half the
units of the original game. Allegiance, Tachyon and Xbeyond the Frontier
only sold a few thousand copies (Interplay's re-release of Battlecruiser
3000 did better than any of those games). Starlancer did a little better,
but it was still a big commercial flop. And Independence War 2 and Jump
Gate both sold very, very poorly in the U.S., even though they were both
good games.
Hopefully they did better in other markets (like the U.K., in IW2's case, in
particular) Games developed in non-U.S. markets tend to do better in
non-U.S. jurisdictions, understandably enough.
Erik
<dess...@THISCOMESOUTsympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>"DocScorpio" <DocSc...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>news:fQK18.19602$X_1.175...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
<snip>
>> Please correct if I'm mistaken, but I guess their basic mistake was
>> developing a game in a genre that apparently has almost zero appeal to the
>> general gaming public. Has any FP space sim sold well in the last couple
>of
>> years? I don't believe that the FS series or SL did all that well.
>
>I really wonder why the genre's been so thoroughly abandoned by gamers, but
>it's really hit the skids over the past several years, but it's a pretty
>recent development:
I blame Anakin "let's try spinning, that's a good trick" Skywalker.
milo
> "DocScorpio" <DocSc...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:fQK18.19602$X_1.175...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
> >
> > Desslock <dess...@THISCOMESOUTsympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:a27ig...@enews2.newsguy.com...
> > > Independence War 2, unfortunately, was a gigantic commercial bomb in
the
> > > U.S. It only sold a handful of copies.
> > Please correct if I'm mistaken, but I guess their basic mistake was
> > developing a game in a genre that apparently has almost zero appeal to
the
> > general gaming public. Has any FP space sim sold well in the last
couple
> of
> > years? I don't believe that the FS series or SL did all that well.
>
> Descent Freespace (Freespace 1 - a 1998 release) sold well, as did the
last
> Wing Commander (late 1997) and X-wing Alliance (early 1999). XWA outsold
> the other two by a large margin. But the genre's had one successive bomb
> after another since then, and each release seems to do worse than the
> others. FreeSpace 2 did, in retrospect, o.k., but sold less than half the
> units of the original game. Allegiance, Tachyon and Xbeyond the Frontier
> only sold a few thousand copies (Interplay's re-release of Battlecruiser
> 3000 did better than any of those games). Starlancer did a little better,
> but it was still a big commercial flop. And Independence War 2 and Jump
> Gate both sold very, very poorly in the U.S., even though they were both
> good games.
Desslock, two questions:
1. Is it possible for you to be more quantitative than "big commercial flop"
or "sold very, very poorly"? Do you have actual numbers and if so, is there
a reason why you have not shared them?
2. What is your take on the following quote regarding StarLancer's sales
from Eric Peterson of Fever Pitch (formerly of Digital Anvil):
"Based on games like Rainbow Six, we thought people would enjoy playing
co-operatively in Starlancer. To be honest, I think we misjudged things. It
seems that people saw Starlancer as a singular experience. It sold OK,
probably about 400,000 units, but we were actually expecting it to do a
little
better."
Source:
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/r/?domain=&feed=index&page=http://www.c
omputerandvideogames.com/news/news_story.php?id=23260
Thanks,
--milo
http://www.starshatter.com
Krud
news:fQK18.19602$X_1.175...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
> >
> was clearly a good game and the people at Particle Systems (Stephen
> Robertson and the others who post here and elsewhere) are about the most
> helpful folks you could encounter anywhere on the net. Not only did they
> provide outstanding support for IW2, but they also produced numerous
> game-enhancing mods for it....and they continued to do this when it must
> have been clear to them that the game was not going to be a big success. I
> applaud them.
>
> Please correct if I'm mistaken, but I guess their basic mistake was
> developing a game in a genre that apparently has almost zero appeal to the
> general gaming public. Has any FP space sim sold well in the last couple of
> years? I don't believe that the FS series or SL did all that well.
I agree, but there are some things they could have done to give the game more
mass appeal.
1) Difficulty settings - the game is way too hard for the average casual
gamer, imo.
2) An arcade mode that is more like conventional space sim (without the
Newtonian physics model).
3) A better manual.
4) A better trading module, more like Privateer or Elite.
I think Edge of Chaos is one of the best space-sims I've ever played.
-Krud
Derek Smart (3000AD)
<dess...@THISCOMESOUTsympatico.ca> wrote:
>"Erik" <erik@look_in_headers.org> wrote in message
>news:osee4u8q3p5k1t12s...@4ax.com...
>> >On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:29:57 -0800, "CM" <cm...@loadzone.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >>IW2 wins best sci-fi simulation of 2001 at Gamespot:
>> >>
>> >>http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/bestof_2001/p3_16.html
>> >
>> >Oh, thats just great. No IWar3. Just saw this on Avault.
>> >
>> >"
>> >UK developer Argonaut Games has announced the acquisition of Particle
>> >Systems...
>> <snip>
>>
>> Maybe we could get a Starglider3 instead.
>> On the other hand, I think Argonaut is doing console stuff these days.
>> In any case, good luck to the Particle Systems guys.
Sad really. Though its just a shooter (and fucking hard), as I've said
before, I really do like both of the titles. Especially since they are
a complete break from the complexities of mine (everyone needs a light
game every now and again).
And to make things worse, Argonaut is getting PS for a steal. That
amount of money is really *nothing* and in fact, is just the budget
for 1 or 2 games. Which invariably means that all their eggs are
probably in EXO. I won't be surprised if a console based space sim
shooter based on IW2 tech, shows up at some point.
At any rate, who didn't see this coming? I'm sure PS already knew that
if IW2 bombed, Infogrames would bail (they are not in a particularly
good financial state either) right quick. And them still having EXO
pretty much indicates a multi-title game deal. And if Infogrames
didn't buy PS, then it means they're not particularly interested nor
happy with the studio. Fucking publishers. You can always count on
them to be disloyal. *sigh*
>Independence War 2, unfortunately, was a gigantic commercial bomb in the
>U.S. It only sold a handful of copies.
Yep. Just like the first one was actually.
In fact, IW2 sold about 11K units since its 8/01 release, last time I
checked NPD around Christmas. It didn't sell that many in Europe
either. Will check NPD later for the figures.
FWIW, I wish PS luck. Man, the space sim genre is really going down in
flames. But never fear!!! I'm still here!!! *G*
Derek Smart (3000AD)
<DocSc...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>Not a big news flash, but there's obviously no justice in this world. IW2
>was clearly a good game and the people at Particle Systems (Stephen
>Robertson and the others who post here and elsewhere) are about the most
>helpful folks you could encounter anywhere on the net. Not only did they
>provide outstanding support for IW2, but they also produced numerous
>game-enhancing mods for it....and they continued to do this when it must
>have been clear to them that the game was not going to be a big success. I
>applaud them.
Indeed
>Please correct if I'm mistaken, but I guess their basic mistake was
>developing a game in a genre that apparently has almost zero appeal to the
>general gaming public.
Yep
>Has any FP space sim sold well in the last couple of
>years? I don't believe that the FS series or SL did all that well.
So far, *every* space sim since (and including Freespace2), has tanked
at retail - if you go by the cost of development ratio. SL and TTF
were both gigantic flops. And lets even talk about XBTF.
It boils down to the fact that space sims genre is a small *and* niche
(most forget this) crowd. Not since WC3 have space sims sold large
numbers. Freespace was a major hit because it came out at the right
time.
Nowadays, there is NO way to spend $2-3m on a space sim title and hope
to get your money back. Its just *not* going to happen. Period. To
even recoup that kind of money (e.g. $2m), you have to sell in excess
of 200K+ units if the math dwindles down to a little over $10 per unit
after costs (dev, marketing etc).
Even BCM, the only reason I can break even and see a substantial
profit, is because of my very, ultra low overhead, two year dev period
and self-publishing. There is a big difference between getting $7.5
per unit royalties (if even) on a $50 retail game and getting $25 per
unit profit on the same game. So, even if you spend $2m, going
anywhere near a publisher with a title that is not projected to sell
in excess of 150K+ units, just spells doom. For one thing, you'll
*never* make back the advances (e.g $2m). And if you do, just barely.
I'm quite certain that PS falls into one of these categories over
I-War2, hence this buy-out.
And the fact that Infogrames didn't even buy the company (Argonaut got
it for a *steal*) is just plain odd, don't you think?
I have said this over and over again. The derivative space sim genre
is dead. Period. Unless you can add something else to the
run-of-the-mill space sim, its *never* going to sell. At least not on
the PC. There is a damn good reason that Freelancer is still MIA. And
even Elite IV is going to have a steep uphill climb if its just going
to be the same old derivative stuff. Jumpgate, Darkspace et al are all
as good as dead and waiting for the final rites.
Even in my case, if you look at the XP add-ons for BCM and even BCTC,
I'm heading in new directions because the pure space-sim genre is
going to cut it. Even as much as BCM offers, without enhancing the
experience over time, interest will be lost. Which is where BCO and
BCTC come in again to bridge that gap.
*sigh*
Derek Smart (3000AD)
<dess...@THISCOMESOUTsympatico.ca> wrote:
>units of the original game. Allegiance, Tachyon and Xbeyond the Frontier
>only sold a few thousand copies (Interplay's re-release of Battlecruiser
>3000 did better than any of those games).
Yep. And that was primarily due to the size of the fan base and indeed
the price point.
>Starlancer did a little better, but it was still a big commercial flop. And Independence War 2 and Jump
>Gate both sold very, very poorly in the U.S., even though they were both
>good games.
DarkSpace too flopped right out the door
>Hopefully they did better in other markets (like the U.K., in IW2's case, in
>particular)
Last time I checked, IWar2 had yet to sell 35K units in Europe. Only
PS have the actual figures though and I'm sure that their contracts
prohibit them from revealing such details.
>Games developed in non-U.S. markets tend to do better in
>non-U.S. jurisdictions, understandably enough.
Yep
Derek Smart (3000AD)
>2. What is your take on the following quote regarding StarLancer's sales
>from Eric Peterson of Fever Pitch (formerly of Digital Anvil):
>
>"Based on games like Rainbow Six, we thought people would enjoy playing
>co-operatively in Starlancer. To be honest, I think we misjudged things. It
>seems that people saw Starlancer as a singular experience. It sold OK,
>probably about 400,000 units, but we were actually expecting it to do a
>little
>better."
Thats pure bollocks. I'm sure there's an extra zero in there
somewhere. Further, sell-in numbers are different from sell-through.
Derek Smart (3000AD)
wrote:
>I agree, but there are some things they could have done to give the game more
>mass appeal.
>
>1) Difficulty settings - the game is way too hard for the average casual
>gamer, imo.
>2) An arcade mode that is more like conventional space sim (without the
>Newtonian physics model).
>3) A better manual.
>4) A better trading module, more like Privateer or Elite.
I agree 100%
I think also that the whole freeform notion they were pitching, didn't
quite work out the way gamers expected it to be.
When?
>On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:29:57 -0800, "CM" <cm...@loadzone.org> wrote:
>
>>IW2 wins best sci-fi simulation of 2001 at Gamespot:
>>
>>http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/bestof_2001/p3_16.html
>
>Oh, thats just great. No IWar3.
The thing to note here is that Derek probably isn't being sarcastic.
--
"Remember the rule about NOT having ANY spelling errors in thread
subjects?" - Derek Smart, 3000ad.com forum
DocScorpio
Krud <au...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:a2948h$efq$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
to the original IW. True, if you didn't use lateral thrusters you were dead
in a heartbeat from the git go (w/o lateral thrusters, I couldn't even win
the first battle in the Act 0 tutorial). However, it was my experience that
once you started using thrusters, combat became very manageable (and believe
me, my reflexes arn't worth squat any more).
I also thought that the Newtonian physics model was toned down compared to
the original. Of course, I played the game with the latest patch and I know
that the difficulty of many of the missions had been ramped down when
compared to the initial release version. I remember a lot of chat on here
about some of those missions (gunstar, etc.) when the game was first
released and that was one reason I didn't buy till relatively recently.
From what I read here when the game was first released, I got the impression
that IW2 was another study in frustration and aggravation.
I agree that the manual left much to be desired. I also agree that there
wasn't much to the trading module. However, the same can be said for
Privateer. The way you made money in Privateer was by performing missions
(either hunter/patrol or trading missions). The actual buying and trading
of commodities was completely lame (limited cargo space and not enough
profit......trading missions, OTOH, seemed to have no impact on cargo space.
Go figure that). Of course, I preferred a Centurion, which had no cargo
space to speak of.
I saw IW2 as essentially a piracy game with plot and secondary missions.
You made your bucks/got equipment by taking cargo away from other ships.
A Chimp
> And if Infogrames
> didn't buy PS, then it means they're not particularly interested nor
> happy with the studio. Fucking publishers. You can always count on
> them to be disloyal. *sigh*
Derek, I don`t think that it would be (a) publisher not being interested,
more the studio not being interesting in being taken over by them :)
You are right though, Fuck publishers, especially big French ones!
A Chimp
Desslock
news:ZfQ18.42211$B61.13...@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com...
> "Desslock" <dess...@THISCOMESOUTsympatico.ca> wrote in message
> last
> > Wing Commander (late 1997) and X-wing Alliance (early 1999). XWA
outsold
> > the other two by a large margin. But the genre's had one successive
bomb
> > after another since then, and each release seems to do worse than the
> > others. FreeSpace 2 did, in retrospect, o.k., but sold less than half
the
> > units of the original game. Allegiance, Tachyon and Xbeyond the
Frontier
> > only sold a few thousand copies (Interplay's re-release of
Battlecruiser
> > 3000 did better than any of those games). Starlancer did a little
better,
> > but it was still a big commercial flop. And Independence War 2 and Jump
> > Gate both sold very, very poorly in the U.S., even though they were both
> > good games.
>
> Desslock, two questions:
>
> 1. Is it possible for you to be more quantitative than "big commercial
flop"
> or "sold very, very poorly"? Do you have actual numbers and if so, is
there
> a reason why you have not shared them?
Sure, I'll post them -- I was just lazy before. These represent over 90%
of the "U.S. sales" (only) of these titles. Since additional sales once a
game is in the bargain bin often make it seem like a game was more
successful than it actually was (because of unit sales at a bargain rate),
I'll also post the aggregate revenue from those games, where I have that
information. Often you can get a decent idea of world-wide sales by
doubling these figures (or more, in the case of non-U.S. developers).
1997:
X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter (Balance of Power) 333,608 units ($15,333,000)
Wing Commander Prophecy (and gold) 210,000 units ($7,110,000)
1998
Descent Freespace (Freespace 1) (and gold) 147,158 units
($4,563,000)
expansion pack (alone) 23,000
units ($404,000) (so approximately 170,000 units and $5,000,000 for
Freespace 1 in total)
Independence War 61,000
units ($2,210,000)
Interplay Re-release of Battlecruiser 3000 41,037 units
($405,000) (I don't have any figures on Take Two's original release,
although Derek may be able to provide them)
1999
X-Wing Alliance 235,920
units ($7,457,000)
FreeSpace 2 (including game of the year) 83,484 units
($2,703,000)
Independence War Deluxe 23,000 units
($487,000) (so approximately 84,000 units and $2,700,000 for Independence
War and its expansion)
2000
Tachyon
61,200 units ($2,112,000)
Starlancer
27,390 units ($1,147,000)
Allegiance
12,700 units ($443,000)
X-Beyond the Frontier 10,834
units ($295,000)
2001
Independence War 2 10,069 units
($407,000)
I can't find Jump Gate's stats for some reason, but as I recall it sold less
than 10,000 units.
That's a pretty horrible trend over the past 4 years. The latest
information I have doesn't cover December, 2001.
> 2. What is your take on the following quote regarding StarLancer's sales
> from Eric Peterson of Fever Pitch (formerly of Digital Anvil):
>
> "Based on games like Rainbow Six, we thought people would enjoy playing
> co-operatively in Starlancer. To be honest, I think we misjudged things.
It
> seems that people saw Starlancer as a singular experience. It sold OK,
> probably about 400,000 units, but we were actually expecting it to do a
> little
> better."
Yikes.
Allan Parent
"Derek Smart (3000AD)" <dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> wrote in
> So far, *every* space sim since (and including Freespace2), has tanked
> at retail - >
With yours leading the way down the tubes no doubt.
Allan
Allan Parent
"Derek Smart (3000AD)" <dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> wrote in message
news:qgkg4usii6ejedetn...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 07:36:25 GMT, "milo" <mi...@home.com> wrote:
>
> Thats pure bollocks. I'm sure there's an extra zero in there
> somewhere. >
>
Yeah, you would never do that would you?
Allan
Desslock
(below)
--
Desslock's RPG News: http://desslock.gamespot.com
New Gaming Industry Editorials on Fridays
1997:
X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter (Balance of Power) 333,608 units ($15,333,000)
Wing Commander Prophecy (and gold) 210,000 units ($7,110,000)
1998
Descent Freespace (Freespace 1) (and gold) 147,158 units ($4,563,000)
Freespace expansion pack (alone) 23,000 units
($404,000)
(so approximately 170,000 units and $5,000,000 for Freespace 1 in total)
Independence War 61,000
units ($2,210,000)
Interplay Re-release of Battlecruiser 3000 41,037 units
($405,000)
(I don't have any figures on Take Two's original release, although Derek may
be able to provide them)
1999
X-Wing Alliance 235,920
units ($7,457,000)
FreeSpace 2 (including game of the year) 83,484 units
($2,703,000)
Independence War Deluxe 23,000 units
($487,000)
(so approximately 84,000 units and $2,700,000 for Independence War and its
expansion)
2000
Tachyon 61,200 units ($2,112,000)
Starlancer 27,390 units ($1,147,000)
Allegiance 12,700 units ($443,000)
X-Beyond the Frontier 10,834 units ($295,000)
2001
Independence War 10,069 units ($407,000)
Jak Crow
Careful now. You might cause Derek's world to crumble again....
DocScorpio
Derek Smart (3000AD) <dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> wrote in message
news:ifjg4uo9lv1nn2l6p...@4ax.com...
A couple of months ago, I read your XP/BCO/BCTC info and concluded that you
were moving on, or at least changing direction. I guess, ultimately, no
matter how much you like a genre, you really have to go where the players
are. IMO, there are gaming fads or trends that have little or nothing to do
with how good games are in a specific genre at any given moment. I've
enjoyed playing the space sims I've bought during the last 3-4 years, but
most of these games, as you and others have pointed out, enjoyed only
limited commercial success at best....or simply bombed. Yeah, and I'm also
one of the poor slobs who's waiting for Freelancer.
Bill Huffman
"Derek Smart (3000AD)" <dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> wrote in message
news:50jg4u07l9p6m7oe0...@4ax.com...
...
> FWIW, I wish PS luck. Man, the space sim genre is really going down in
> flames. But never fear!!! I'm still here!!! *G*
and the comic relief is appreciated
Eric Harding
>"Derek Smart (3000AD)" <dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> recently wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:29:57 -0800, "CM" <cm...@loadzone.org> wrote:
>>
>>>IW2 wins best sci-fi simulation of 2001 at Gamespot:
>>>
>>>http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/bestof_2001/p3_16.html
>>
>>Oh, thats just great. No IWar3.
>
>The thing to note here is that Derek probably isn't being sarcastic.
>
Of he isn't. He needs other products to get new ideas from...
Eric
Xan
news:50jg4u07l9p6m7oe0...@4ax.com...
> Sad really. Though its just a shooter (and fucking hard), as I've said
> before, I really do like both of the titles. Especially since they are
> a complete break from the complexities of mine (everyone needs a light
> game every now and again).
Funny; you were slamming IW2 for being so simplistic many months back.
> Fucking publishers. You can always count on
> them to be disloyal. *sigh*
You bet.
> In fact, IW2 sold about 11K units since its 8/01 release, last time I
> checked NPD around Christmas. It didn't sell that many in Europe
> either. Will check NPD later for the figures.
The figures for IW2 and the other space sims have been revealed, so why don't
you tell us yours? =P
> FWIW, I wish PS luck.
Sudden change of heart? Not so long ago, you openly wished them to die out.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=l6rfptcjmp4o5sso2...@4ax.co
m
> Man, the space sim genre is really going down in
> flames. But never fear!!! I'm still here!!! *G*
God help us all! <g>
// Xan, Ph.D.
// As you command, Divine Shadow.
Derek Smart (3000AD)
<dess...@THISCOMESOUTsympatico.ca> wrote:
>Interplay Re-release of Battlecruiser 3000 41,037 units
>($405,000)
The last statements showed about 68K+ units I think (and thats just
North America, since Interplay didn't have International rights). I'll
dig it up and send to you as confidential email. Then you can confirm
or deny it here if you so desire. Check your email next week.
>(I don't have any figures on Take Two's original release,
>although Derek may be able to provide them)
Neither do I. Hence that whole legal tussle with them. The only
information (prior to the settlement with them) that I or anyone has
on Take Two's BC3K 1.0x sales (apart from the fact that they illegally
sold the OEM rights to GameTek UK and some other company), is derived
from this SEC filing prior to their going public.
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/946581/0000891554-98-000123.txt
After all this time of saying that Take Two cooked the books, most
(the idiots here in the groups) said that I was making it up.
Recently, how many developers *and* companies have sued Take Two for
cooking the books? Even now, they're in trouble with the SEC. Here is
an excerpt from that link above . I dunno what they spent $618K on,
but it certainly wasn't me. Because products from third parties pay
for themselves, I can only assume that Take Two lumped in their dev
costs, marketing (!) etc in there, since the product was liable for
them. But have I ever seen *any* accounting of this? Nope. Not a
single piece of paper.
http://www.3000ad.com/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=001616
====
In August 1995, the Company entered into an agreement with 3000 AD,
Inc. ("3000 AD"), which was amended in December 1995, February,
May and September 1996 and March 1997, pursuant to which 3000 AD
granted the Company the exclusive worldwide right to manufacture,
market and distribute Battlecruiser 3000 A.D.
for all platforms; and (ii) a right of first refusal to publish two
additional games based on the engine used in Battlecruiser 3000 A.D.
3000 AD is entitled to retain all copyrights and trademarks
relating to the product, including all enhancements to the product
which may be made by the Company. Pursuant to the
agreement, the Company made advances in the aggregate amount of
approximately $618,000, a portion of which are recoupable
against 3000 AD's share of distribution receipts. The Company
is obligated to pay 3000 AD 18% of net receipts on sales of over
70,000 units in the United States and on sales in Europe.
====
BC3K + BC3K v2.0x, the last time I checked, had about 150K+ units in
worldwide circulation through four companies. I can't remember the
exact figures now unfortunately.
Derek Smart (3000AD)
<no...@nothing.com> wrote:
>
>> And if Infogrames
>> didn't buy PS, then it means they're not particularly interested nor
>> happy with the studio. Fucking publishers. You can always count on
>> them to be disloyal. *sigh*
>
>Derek, I don`t think that it would be (a) publisher not being interested,
>more the studio not being interesting in being taken over by them :)
Ah, I never thought of that. And thats probably because PS still has
to do EXO for Infogrames. I suppose it would be up to Argonaut to
bridge PS to IG until EXO is out. In fact, now that they own PS, it
will be Argonaut dealing directly with IG now. And if what you say is
true and PS didn't want to be bought out by IG, then it stands to
reason that things are not all that good between PS and IG. So what
else is new? This happens all the time (the most recent being that
whole Bethesda/Akella issue) and every day. You just don't hear much
about it.
>You are right though, Fuck publishers,
heh, yep
>especially big French ones!
tsk-tsk. I dunno about that *G*
A Chimp
rest :)
"Derek Smart (3000AD)" >
milo
> Sorry, the spacing got kinda monkeyed up. Hopefully it's clearer now
Thank you, that was very helpful. I was aware that space sims
were not selling very well of late, but I didn't realize that the
downward trend was as dismal as it now appears to be. It
seems to just keep getting worse and worse.
A lot of people had claimed that Interplay was responsible for
Freespace 2's poor sales by not marketing the game heavily.
But seeing these numbers makes me think that claim does not
hold water. FS2 sold no better or worse than any of the other
games in the genre. There appears to be a market trend at
work here that simple advertising will not be able to overcome.
The next two questions (not directed toward Desslock in
particular, but for the whole group) are:
1. Why? Space sims used to be fairly mainstream. The
first computer game ever created was a space sim. Elite
sold several hundred thousand copies. The Wing Commander
games did well at least through WC3. What happened to
the audience? I assume that the people that bought WC3
are mostly still alive - why have they not bought any of the
more recent titles in the genre?
2. What, if anything, can be done by developers and/or
publishers to reverse the trend? Perhaps nothing can be
done to increase sales and the only course is to make
space sims on very tight budgets (less than $350,000).
The interesting thing is that several different games in the
genre have tried different strategies. FS2 tried to be the
ultimate Wing Commander clone. IWar went in the
direction of larger ships, more realistic flight models, and
complex puzzle-like missions. Allegiance went multiplayer
and real time strategy. BC3K went totally freeform.
Tachyon and X:BTF tried to clone Elite. Jumpgate tried
to be the first multiplayer Elite clone.
So far nothing has worked. Staying true to the WC-mold
has been no more or less successful than trying something
new.
It will be interesting to see if Brat Design's BREED game
does any better. This is not a traditional space sim at all,
but a multi-vehicle sci-fi sim which includes space fighters.
Sort of Halo on Earth, if you will pardon the pun.
I notice that the game consoles continue to have arcade-
style space and air combat sims (e.g. whatever the latest
Rogue Squadron game is on Nintendo GameCube, Ace
Combat 4 on PS2). Do those games sell OK? Would
PC space sims do well to emulate those gameplay
mechanics?
--milo
http://www.starshatter.com
Martyn W
> amount of money is really *nothing* and in fact, is just the budget
> for 1 or 2 games. Which invariably means that all their eggs are
> probably in EXO. I won't be surprised if a console based space sim
> shooter based on IW2 tech, shows up at some point.
At least PS is actually worth a positive amount of money. Jealous?
> At any rate, who didn't see this coming? I'm sure PS already knew that
> if IW2 bombed, Infogrames would bail (they are not in a particularly
> good financial state either) right quick. And them still having EXO
> pretty much indicates a multi-title game deal. And if Infogrames
> didn't buy PS, then it means they're not particularly interested nor
> happy with the studio. Fucking publishers. You can always count on
> them to be disloyal. *sigh*
>
> >Independence War 2, unfortunately, was a gigantic commercial bomb in the
> >U.S. It only sold a handful of copies.
>
> Yep. Just like the first one was actually.
Absolute crap. The IW series pre-IW2 sold over 200,000 copies - the
developer reported it some time ago. Surveys like NPD severely
underestimate sales.
> In fact, IW2 sold about 11K units since its 8/01 release, last time I
> checked NPD around Christmas. It didn't sell that many in Europe
> either. Will check NPD later for the figures.
You can draw two conclusions from your spiteful envy-driven hogwash.
a) despite undeservedly low sales, IW2 has been critically acclaimed
and won awards, just recently IGN's simulation of 2002. Contrast that
with BCM. Probably only a 10th of IW2's sales, and critically slammed
by everyone worth reading.
b) even though you are an arrogant and abusive egotist, you are right
about the space-sim market. I doubt we will see another serious
attempt at a space-sim from any respected developer or publisher for
the foreseeable future. Apart from big licenses like Star Wars. Hardly
anything for you to celebrate.
- MW
fly135
>
> Thank you, that was very helpful. I was aware that space sims
> were not selling very well of late, but I didn't realize that the
> downward trend was as dismal as it now appears to be. It
> seems to just keep getting worse and worse.
>
Space sims will never do well until they get multiplayer right. Jumpgate
had a chance but blew it trying trying to make another ridiculously boring
space trading RPG. The persistant universe and RPG aspects are wonderful,
but the first rule of success is going to be making the game fun to play
right from the start. It's hard enough to master a game and fun doesn't
come until you've done that to some degree. The whole idea of forcing
beginners into a subservient role with crappy equipment and nothing fun to
do is the fastest way to get from the store shelve to the trash bin. Nobody
is going to get rich by making another boring Elite style game. Space sim
developers need to break the mold.
Doc
ask me. I know most the US sales on that game belong to the Fatal Shadows.
If you've heard of them, I've been with them since the beginning.
http://fatalshadows.freesevers.com Jumpgate was ok in the Beta Test and I
hear it's gotten better!
"Doc"
Desslock <dess...@THISCOMESOUTsympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:a2812...@enews3.newsguy.com...
>
> "DocScorpio" <DocSc...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:fQK18.19602$X_1.175...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
> >
> > Desslock <dess...@THISCOMESOUTsympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:a27ig...@enews2.newsguy.com...
> > > "Erik" <erik@look_in_headers.org> wrote in message
> > > news:osee4u8q3p5k1t12s...@4ax.com...
> > > > >On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:29:57 -0800, "CM" <cm...@loadzone.org>
wrote:
> > [snip]
> > >
> > > Independence War 2, unfortunately, was a gigantic commercial bomb in
the
> > > U.S. It only sold a handful of copies.
> > >
> > >
> > Not a big news flash, but there's obviously no justice in this world.
IW2
> > was clearly a good game and the people at Particle Systems (Stephen
> > Robertson and the others who post here and elsewhere) are about the most
> > helpful folks you could encounter anywhere on the net. Not only did
they
> > provide outstanding support for IW2, but they also produced numerous
> > game-enhancing mods for it....and they continued to do this when it must
> > have been clear to them that the game was not going to be a big success.
> I
> > applaud them.
>
> Yep. That's why I said "unfortunately", heh.
>
> > Please correct if I'm mistaken, but I guess their basic mistake was
> > developing a game in a genre that apparently has almost zero appeal to
the
> > general gaming public. Has any FP space sim sold well in the last
couple
> of
> > years? I don't believe that the FS series or SL did all that well.
>
> I really wonder why the genre's been so thoroughly abandoned by gamers,
but
> it's really hit the skids over the past several years, but it's a pretty
> recent development:
>
> Descent Freespace (Freespace 1 - a 1998 release) sold well, as did the
last
> Wing Commander (late 1997) and X-wing Alliance (early 1999). XWA outsold
> the other two by a large margin. But the genre's had one successive bomb
> after another since then, and each release seems to do worse than the
> others. FreeSpace 2 did, in retrospect, o.k., but sold less than half the
> units of the original game. Allegiance, Tachyon and Xbeyond the Frontier
> only sold a few thousand copies (Interplay's re-release of Battlecruiser
> 3000 did better than any of those games). Starlancer did a little better,
> but it was still a big commercial flop. And Independence War 2 and Jump
> Gate both sold very, very poorly in the U.S., even though they were both
> good games.
>
> Hopefully they did better in other markets (like the U.K., in IW2's case,
in
> particular) Games developed in non-U.S. markets tend to do better in
> non-U.S. jurisdictions, understandably enough.
>
> Desslock
>
> --
> Desslock's RPG News: http://desslock.gamespot.com
>
Graham Thurlwell
(3000AD) <dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> says...
<snip>
> And the fact that Infogrames didn't even buy the company (Argonaut got
> it for a *steal*) is just plain odd, don't you think?
As well as being French, Infogrames are probably big examples of the
Men in Suits mentality so they don't 'get' freeform space sims.
Argonaut are from the old 'Britsoft' school, dating back from the days
of the BBC Micro and Spectrum. IIRC, one of the main directors of
Argonaut used to work for Acornsoft. Acornsoft, of course, agreed to
publish Elite after the game had been rejected by Thorn EMI ("no
lives, no levels, no high scores" featured in the rejection letter).
Historically, space sims (especially freeform ones) have done better
in the UK and Europe.
> I have said this over and over again. The derivative space sim genre
> is dead.
Depends on what you mean by derivative, really. David Braben knows
that Elite IV is going to have to be superb to stand out. I think that
it'll sell very well in the UK (the 3rd biggest gaming market in the
world, IIRC) - a recent survey showed that Elite was one of the games
most wanted on Gameboy Advance and Frontier Developments recently
admitted it was in development.
The UK gamer does not value presentation above quality of gameplay -
which is why Championship Manager thrashes the pants (in sales terms)
off any other football management game (yes, including EA's officially
licensed efforts) every year.
--
Graham 'Jades' Thurlwell
Jades' FFE Site: http://www.jades.org/ffe.htm
The best Frontier First Encounters site on the net
Derek Smart (3000AD)
wrote:
>> And to make things worse, Argonaut is getting PS for a steal. That
>> amount of money is really *nothing* and in fact, is just the budget
>> for 1 or 2 games. Which invariably means that all their eggs are
>> probably in EXO. I won't be surprised if a console based space sim
>> shooter based on IW2 tech, shows up at some point.
>
>At least PS is actually worth a positive amount of money. Jealous?
Here we go again.
pre-requisite *plonk* defered to end of post. Wait for it.
>> >Independence War 2, unfortunately, was a gigantic commercial bomb in the
>> >U.S. It only sold a handful of copies.
>>
>> Yep. Just like the first one was actually.
>
>Absolute crap. The IW series pre-IW2 sold over 200,000 copies - the
>developer reported it some time ago. Surveys like NPD severely
>underestimate sales.
You must be fucking smoking some heavy shit. IWar2 hasn't even sold
20K units in the US, let alone 200K *anywhere* worldwide.
*plonk*
milo
> On 19 Jan 2002 07:45:02 -0800, Martyn...@yahoo.co.uk (Martyn W)
> wrote:
>
> >> >Independence War 2, unfortunately, was a gigantic commercial bomb in
the
> >> >U.S. It only sold a handful of copies.
> >>
> >> Yep. Just like the first one was actually.
> >
> >Absolute crap. The IW series pre-IW2 sold over 200,000 copies - the
> >developer reported it some time ago. Surveys like NPD severely
> >underestimate sales.
>
> You must be fucking smoking some heavy shit. IWar2 hasn't even sold
> 20K units in the US, let alone 200K *anywhere* worldwide.
Fine. Except that's not what he said. Read it again.
"The IWar series pre-IW2" (in other words, all of the IWar games
up to, but not including IWar 2) sold 200,000 copies world wide.
Based on Desslock's posting of the NPD reported stats, that's a
little bit high, but still within the realm of possibility. NPD reported
84000 units in the US. The developer claimed about 125000 units
in the US, and about that many more in the rest of the world. The
true figures for world wide sales are probably between 150 and 250
thousand units, and 3 to 5 million USD retail revenue.
Given that IWar was a relatively unknown quantity from a relative
newcomer that tried to break some new ground on a reasonably
small budget, I'd say that IWar did OK. Contrary to your claim
above, I'd say that IWar was the last space-sim that *wasn't* a
commercial bomb.
That said, I reiterate my claim from an earlier posting: It doesn't
seem to matter whether a game is any good, or is styled after WC,
or was expensively produced. Everything released after 1998 has
flopped to some extent, getting worse with time. That seems to
indicate a genre-wide malaise, not a problem with any specific game
or even style of game. No space sims are selling very well. The
question is: why not?
--milo
http://www.starshatter.com
Tom Dawkins
(3000AD) <dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> writes[...]
>>
>>Absolute crap. The IW series pre-IW2 sold over 200,000 copies - the
>>developer reported it some time ago. Surveys like NPD severely
>>underestimate sales.
>
>You must be fucking smoking some heavy shit. IWar2 hasn't even sold
>20K units in the US, let alone 200K *anywhere* worldwide.
>
One of the finer PKBs I've seen on Usenet.
Derek, read the above again slowly. Martyn's figures were 'pre IW2. What
is it with you plonkers ?
The reputation of space-sims is as much to blame in my opinion than
anything else for the poor recent sales in the genre. Your rants and
gloats don't help any. There is still more than enough room for an a
space-sim based on up to date scientific information and an accurate
local stellar map.
[...]
--
Tom Dawkins
Xan
news:jl2m4u0vrmi0bdk3s...@4ax.com...
> 20K units in the US, let alone 200K *anywhere* worldwide.
Then you must be close to ODing on whatever it is YOU are taking. He was
talking about I-War 1 et al, genius. Read it again, S_L_O_W_L_Y -- as you
always say on VE [except for you it's only a chickening-out tactic].
Bwahahahaha!
The fact that you're so ready to jump the gun when someone mentions I-War only
to say how poorly IW2 has been selling is *cough* REALLY indicative that you
wish PS luck. You obviously despise them for releasing an ultra-cool,
captivating space sim. What a joke you are, Dorky.
a
<dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> wrote:
>On 19 Jan 2002 07:45:02 -0800, Martyn...@yahoo.co.uk (Martyn W)
>wrote:
>
>>> And to make things worse, Argonaut is getting PS for a steal. That
>>> amount of money is really *nothing* and in fact, is just the budget
>>> for 1 or 2 games. Which invariably means that all their eggs are
>>> probably in EXO. I won't be surprised if a console based space sim
>>> shooter based on IW2 tech, shows up at some point.
>>
>>At least PS is actually worth a positive amount of money. Jealous?
>
>Here we go again.
>
>pre-requisite *plonk* defered to end of post. Wait for it.
>
>>> >Independence War 2, unfortunately, was a gigantic commercial bomb in the
>>> >U.S. It only sold a handful of copies.
>>>
>>> Yep. Just like the first one was actually.
>>
>>Absolute crap. The IW series pre-IW2 sold over 200,000 copies - the
>>developer reported it some time ago. Surveys like NPD severely
>>underestimate sales.
>
>You must be fucking smoking some heavy shit. IWar2 hasn't even sold
>20K units in the US, let alone 200K *anywhere* worldwide.
Here little Derek's failure in reading and writing really show!
And what about BCM?? 61 preorders in October from BMT!!!! And you
really look silly now by your statement "if you do not preorder you
probably will not get BCM until I get more run off!!!
>
>*plonk*
Is this the sound a freight train makes when it has run of its
rails???
>Derek Smart Ph.D. Gtaud
Skeksis
news:SWf28.43059$B61.14...@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com:
> 1. Why? Space sims used to be fairly mainstream. The
> first computer game ever created was a space sim. Elite
> sold several hundred thousand copies. The Wing Commander
> games did well at least through WC3. What happened to
> the audience? I assume that the people that bought WC3
> are mostly still alive - why have they not bought any of the
> more recent titles in the genre?
I am just speculating but I wonder if the decline in space sim sales is
because they are starting to move away from the basic dogfighting model to
more involved sims with more in depth game play. Before you flame me I am
not saying that all space sims are moving towards Newtonian physics, which
not all of them are, I am referring to the more involved comm systems and
targeting options as were found in FS2 for example.
> 2. What, if anything, can be done by developers and/or
> publishers to reverse the trend? Perhaps nothing can be
> done to increase sales and the only course is to make
> space sims on very tight budgets (less than $350,000).
Dumb the games down or at least have the option to dumb the game down?
Personally I do not have any interest in something simpler than FS and
FS2, they fit my gaming curve quite nicely. ;) Another thing that might
be hurting is the lack of any highly visible space 'entertainment' right
now. I am sure that Wing Commander was only aided by Star Wars (the movie
not the fanciful missile defense program), for example
> The interesting thing is that several different games in the
> genre have tried different strategies. FS2 tried to be the
> ultimate Wing Commander clone.
Personally I think they succeeded quite well but again the space sim was
moving towards the niche market by then and I do not think the average
computer buying found the game to be appealing. It seems to me that the
game was pretty well marketed towards the established space sim players.
An ad campaign talking about how the capital ships are larger than
anything you have ever encountered before does not seem like it is
reaching out to the new player.
> IWar went in the direction of larger ships, more realistic flight
> models, and complex puzzle-like missions.
And as good as IWar is I think that hurt them in the long run.
> Allegiance went multiplayer and real time strategy.
I think that was why Allegiance never took off as a 'popular' game. It
take too many people in the same place at the same time to make it an
interesting game and there are still far too many people out there who see
the Internet as a mystical and dangerous place with molesters, racists,
and anarchists behind every web site. Also too many people out there have
not made the commitment to have an extra phone line or go DSL or cable to
be able to dedicate the time needed to become proficient at Allegiance.
> BC3K went totally freeform.
BC3K...well that right there may have helped to put space simming down the
crapper. Between being too buggy to play and not having adequate
documentation (as per the reviews I have not tried the game myself) I
would not be surprised if the average gamer came away with the impression
that *all* space sims either sucked or were too complex to play.
Another factor here maybe the need for specialized controls. I am sure
that there are some hardy and intrepid gamers who tackled space sims with
a mouse and keyboard or a basic joystick but all space sims seem to be
tailored towards a HOTAS arrangement or a HOTAS and rudder pedal
arrangement and it is a possibility that the average gamer was intimidated
by the apparent complexity of that kind of control set up.
> Tachyon and X:BTF tried to clone Elite. Jumpgate tried
> to be the first multiplayer Elite clone.
Referring to Tachyon I think was hurt there was the poor resolution to the
game as it seemed to be popular when it came out but damn it is NOT a
pretty sight. ;) X:BTF may have been hurt by having to work the
economics model and I suspect that it just didn't 'relate' enough to the
average user to be of long lasting interest.
> So far nothing has worked. Staying true to the WC-mold
> has been no more or less successful than trying something
> new.
And here we may see an interesting dichotomy in humans. If something
remains the same it gets boring but if something is too different people
stay away from it. As gamers who have been doing this for awhile we look
for something that isn't 'same old, same old' but the average gamer
doesn't seem to be like. I am not casting aspersions here, btw, but it
may explain why there is enough popularity for hockey games to survive
year after year with a change in team data as the big innovation over the
previous year's version. Now personally I find sports games to be
confusing and not worth the effort to play them, something that many
gamers may feel about space sims.
> It will be interesting to see if Brat Design's BREED game
> does any better. This is not a traditional space sim at all,
> but a multi-vehicle sci-fi sim which includes space fighters.
> Sort of Halo on Earth, if you will pardon the pun.
I am not familiar with Breed. What can you tell me about it or where can
I get more information?
> I notice that the game consoles continue to have arcade-
> style space and air combat sims (e.g. whatever the latest
> Rogue Squadron game is on Nintendo GameCube, Ace
> Combat 4 on PS2). Do those games sell OK? Would
> PC space sims do well to emulate those gameplay
> mechanics?
Milo, I think that the Rogue Squadron games are fine for a good time
blasting things but I would not want to see all space sims go that route
as I like having more depth to my space sims. I will say that I suspect
that space sims are going the way of the flight sims, more and more detail
and possibly too much detail. I have been watching the flight sim
community riding an interesting yo-yo for a few years now that I condense
down to:
"Why aren't more people playing fight sims? The genre is dying! By the
way isn't it neat how you need to set four notches of trim to get your
great green Snorklewacker to fly level but only two notches to fly the
great Froomian Carpet Mk IV-A! And how about that Avionic set on Falcon
98 SE? It took me a week just to find out how to turn it on! Isn't that
GREAT?!?!? Anyway, where were we? Oh yeah, why aren't more people buying
these sims???" (exaggerations added for comic effect - do not try this at
home - I am a professionally trained sarcastic bastard <bg>)
Skeksis
Louis J.M
Derek Smart (3000AD) <dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> wrote in message news:jl2m4u0vrmi0bdk3s...@4ax.com...
> On 19 Jan 2002 07:45:02 -0800, Martyn...@yahoo.co.uk (Martyn W)
> wrote:
>
> >> And to make things worse, Argonaut is getting PS for a steal. That
> >> amount of money is really *nothing* and in fact, is just the budget
> >> for 1 or 2 games. Which invariably means that all their eggs are
> >> probably in EXO. I won't be surprised if a console based space sim
> >> shooter based on IW2 tech, shows up at some point.
> >
> >At least PS is actually worth a positive amount of money. Jealous?
>
> Here we go again.
>
> pre-requisite *plonk* defered to end of post. Wait for it.
>
> >> >Independence War 2, unfortunately, was a gigantic commercial bomb in the
> >> >U.S. It only sold a handful of copies.
> >>
> >> Yep. Just like the first one was actually.
> >
> >Absolute crap. The IW series pre-IW2 sold over 200,000 copies - the
> >developer reported it some time ago. Surveys like NPD severely
> >underestimate sales.
>
> You must be fucking smoking some heavy shit. IWar2 hasn't even sold
> 20K units in the US, let alone 200K *anywhere* worldwide.
>
> *plonk*
BCM probably hasn't sold 200 pre-orders.
.-~~-.____ Louis J.M
/ | ' \
( ) O _
\_/-, ,----' // E-Mail: Lou...@REMOVEworldnet.att.net
==== ___// AIM : Zsinj
/ \-'~; /~~~(O) ---------------------------------------------------
/ __/~| __/ | "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience
==(______| (_________| comes from bad judgement." - Jim Horning
Bill Huffman
in a certain genre for a while. For example, before Diablo people were saying
that RPG's were a niche market. Now with Diablo and EverQuest, RPG's are all the
rage.
Skeksis has a good point though, KISS (Keep it simple stupid) AND fun that's
what has been missing. Even Civ III while it is very complicated on the one
hand, it is still simple to learn and fun while it's being learned.
"Skeksis" <n...@na.com> wrote in message
news:Xns919D36CE4E0Bau...@199.45.49.11...
Martyn W
> >> >U.S. It only sold a handful of copies.
> >>
> >> Yep. Just like the first one was actually.
> >
> >Absolute crap. The IW series pre-IW2 sold over 200,000 copies - the
> >developer reported it some time ago. Surveys like NPD severely
> >underestimate sales.
>
> You must be fucking smoking some heavy shit. IWar2 hasn't even sold
> 20K units in the US, let alone 200K *anywhere* worldwide.
Err. Read it again. The IW SERIES PRE-IW2 is the key part.
BTW, no-one should underestimate just how crap Infogrames marketing
has been when it comes to IW2. Here in the UK the typical games shop
seemed to order 4 or 5 copies, only to sell out in the first week. I
went in to our local branch of Game and asked them about the game,
just a few weeks after release:
Me: "Have you got that new space-sim, Edge of Chaos?
Game: "No, we've sold out."
Me: "Are you getting any more then?"
Game: "No, but do you want to buy the Sims instead?"
So they sold their copies to hard-core fans who knew what the game
was, then no-one else would even see it on the shelves.
It's beyond me how any game can sell with that sort of
marketing/sales.
> *plonk*
A shame you feel you have to ignore any views that invalidate your
poorly thought-through arguments. Not surprising though.
- Martyn.
Desslock
news:jl2m4u0vrmi0bdk3s...@4ax.com...
>
>
> pre-requisite *plonk* defered to end of post. Wait for it.
>
> >> >Independence War 2, unfortunately, was a gigantic commercial bomb in
the
> >> >U.S. It only sold a handful of copies.
> >>
> >> Yep. Just like the first one was actually.
> >
> >Absolute crap. The IW series pre-IW2 sold over 200,000 copies - the
> >developer reported it some time ago. Surveys like NPD severely
> >underestimate sales.
>
> You must be fucking smoking some heavy shit. IWar2 hasn't even sold
> 20K units in the US, let alone 200K *anywhere* worldwide.
As others have stated, the reference was to the Iwar series prior to IW2,
and the numbers I posted support that aggregate number. Aside from the fact
that IWar sold better in Europe than it did in the U.S., PC Data's figures
only account for sales from larger chains, like Walmart, EB, Computer City
(excluding Frys), and not smaller chains or stand-alone computer gaming
stores. Niche, critically acclaimed games, like Iwar, tend to do much
better in stand-alone computer gaming stores than in chains like Walmart
(which tend to devote shelf-space only to their larger partners).
200,000 copies of IWar and its expansion, world-wide, certainly sounds
plausible (and I'm definitely inclined to give the Particle Systems guys the
benefit of the doubt).
400,000 copies of Starlancer, on the other hand...
Derek Smart (3000AD)
>> You must be fucking smoking some heavy shit. IWar2 hasn't even sold
>> 20K units in the US, let alone 200K *anywhere* worldwide.
>
>Fine. Except that's not what he said. Read it again.
I know what he wrote. I know what I wrote. My post still stands as it
was originally written. If you're not smart enough to connect the dots
(wrt to the subject matter), don't blame me. It ranks right up there
with pointing out spelling errors.
Derek Smart (3000AD)
<dess...@THISCOMESOUTsympatico.ca> wrote:
>As others have stated, the reference was to the Iwar series prior to IW2,
And I lumped all of the IWar titles into that 200K figure
>200,000 copies of IWar and its expansion, world-wide, certainly sounds
>plausible
I'm not sure about that. The European market, especially for a niche
game, is not that large.
milo
> news:SWf28.43059$B61.14...@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com:
>
> > 1. Why? Space sims used to be fairly mainstream. The
> > first computer game ever created was a space sim. Elite
> > sold several hundred thousand copies. The Wing Commander
> > games did well at least through WC3. What happened to
> > the audience? I assume that the people that bought WC3
> > are mostly still alive - why have they not bought any of the
> > more recent titles in the genre?
First, thanks for the cogent and detailed reply!
> Milo, I think that the Rogue Squadron games are fine for a good time
> blasting things but I would not want to see all space sims go that route
> as I like having more depth to my space sims. I will say that I suspect
> that space sims are going the way of the flight sims, more and more detail
> and possibly too much detail.
I have a friend who says that the problem with science fiction
(in particular, latter day Star Trek) is too much science and
not enough fiction. Science, technology, and realism should
be the springboard for compelling human drama, not an easy way
to wrap up an episode after the final commercial break.
The same logic seems to apply to science fiction games, if
you substitute fun and engaging gameplay for human drama.
> I am just speculating but I wonder if the decline in space sim sales is
> because they are starting to move away from the basic dogfighting model to
> more involved sims with more in depth game play. Before you flame me I am
> not saying that all space sims are moving towards Newtonian physics, which
> not all of them are, I am referring to the more involved comm systems and
> targeting options as were found in FS2 for example.
You mention moving away from a basic dogfighting model of
gameplay as being a problem. I've been thinking about this
since reading your post, looking at my own game and trying
to improve its design. The interesting thing is, the basic
dogfighting model of flight and space sims is part of the
problem in the first place.
When I compare the combat mechanics of a 3D space sim with
those of a typical 3D FPS, I notice a few key differences
(NOTE, this is for comparison only, I am NOT saying that
space sims "should" be like FPS games):
1. Movement - the obvious one. Guiding a spacecraft with
six degrees of freedom (or even only 4DOF) is fundamentally
more abstract than using mouselook to move a Quake character
around.
2. Speed / Acceleration - space sims have high speeds with
low acceleration, FPS have the opposite. The result is that
it can take a long time to chase down your target in space
in contrast with running after a typical target in an FPS.
3. Targeting - space sims require the player to solve complex
equations of motion to land a laser shot from one moving ship
onto a moving target. Space sim HUDs use complex symbology
to help the player compute the proper lead angle. In an FPS,
if the gun cross is on the target, you will hit it. If you
use a BFG-type weapon, you will hit almost any target on the
screen.
4. Environment - space sims have no environment. All ships
are effectively in one big room with nothing to hide behind.
FPS games require the player to navigate through a complex,
occluded 3D environment, and to use that environment in order
to solve gameplay problems. Even when there is not a single
enemy on the screen, the player will have to decide to turn
left or right, to open this door or that one, etc..
Even at their most basic, the core gameplay mechanics of
space sims are far more *abstract* than those of other
action oriented games. This abstraction may make it harder
for many people to become immersed in the game.
That's probably partly why Freelancer and Earth and Beyond
are moving toward simpler mouse-driven control schemes and
combat rules.
> Another factor here maybe the need for specialized controls. I am sure
> that there are some hardy and intrepid gamers who tackled space sims with
> a mouse and keyboard or a basic joystick but all space sims seem to be
> tailored towards a HOTAS arrangement or a HOTAS and rudder pedal
> arrangement and it is a possibility that the average gamer was intimidated
> by the apparent complexity of that kind of control set up.
Another form of abstraction barrier between the player and
the game, and perhaps the easiest to surmount. Quite a few
new space-sims and space-RTS type games are moving toward
a mouse control system.
> > 2. What, if anything, can be done by developers and/or
> > publishers to reverse the trend? Perhaps nothing can be
> > done to increase sales and the only course is to make
> > space sims on very tight budgets (less than $350,000).
>
> Dumb the games down or at least have the option to dumb the game down?
[snip lots of good stuff]
In another post in this thread, Desslock mentioned Diablo (and
Baldur's Gate) as resurrecting the RPG genre that was routinely
seen to be collapsing into a niche market. How was Diablo
able to perform the apparently impossible - i.e. make an RPG
accessible to the mainstream gamer? Well, mostly by simplifying
the gameplay mechanics away from the hardcore stats and exper-
ience based RPGs that many people found stultifying. Is that
"dumbing the game down"? Perhaps.
But what I want to know is: what made the mainstream audience
decide to give the RPG genre a second chance? Positive reviews
in game magazines? Advance press at E3? The fact that it was a
Blizzard game? Expensive TV commercials? Proper planetary
alignment? All of the above?
> > It will be interesting to see if Brat Design's BREED game
> > does any better. This is not a traditional space sim at all,
> > but a multi-vehicle sci-fi sim which includes space fighters.
>
> I am not familiar with Breed. What can you tell me about it or where can
> I get more information?
Bill Huffman
"Derek Smart (3000AD)" <dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> wrote in message
> On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:14:10 GMT, "milo" <mi...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >> You must be fucking smoking some heavy shit. IWar2 hasn't even sold
> >> 20K units in the US, let alone 200K *anywhere* worldwide.
> >
> >Fine. Except that's not what he said. Read it again.
>
> I know what he wrote. I know what I wrote. My post still stands as it
> was originally written. If you're not smart enough to connect the dots
> (wrt to the subject matter), don't blame me. It ranks right up there
> with pointing out spelling errors.
You apparently either can't read or don't know what you wrote. You are , of
course, wrong again. Here's what you wrote Mr. Kevin-Smart.
**************Start of prior Mr. Kevin-Smart post*************
From: "Derek Smart (3000AD)" <dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com>
Subject: Re: Congratulations to Independence War 2!
Date: Sunday, January 20, 2002 10:22 AM
On 19 Jan 2002 07:45:02 -0800, Martyn...@yahoo.co.uk (Martyn W)
wrote:
[...huffman snip]
>Absolute crap. The IW series pre-IW2 sold over 200,000 copies - the
>developer reported it some time ago. Surveys like NPD severely
>underestimate sales.
You must be fucking smoking some heavy shit. IWar2 hasn't even sold
20K units in the US, let alone 200K *anywhere* worldwide.
*plonk*
Derek Smart Ph.D.
*************end of Mr. Kevin-Smart's earlier post**************
He said "pre-IW2" and you said "IWar2". You are so blasted stupid that you can't
even understand when people try to correct you.
milo
> On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:14:10 GMT, "milo" <mi...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >> You must be fucking smoking some heavy shit. IWar2 hasn't even sold
> >> 20K units in the US, let alone 200K *anywhere* worldwide.
> >
> >Fine. Except that's not what he said. Read it again.
>
> I know what he wrote. I know what I wrote. My post still stands as it
> was originally written.
Non sequiter. Your post as it was originally written does
not contribute to the logical chain of the thread in which
it was posted. I suspect that you must realize this yourself,
since you removed the relevant portions of the thread,
including your own erroneous statement, before replying
to my post. Don't bother trying to claim a complex killfile
related accident, because the relevant statements were all
in my post to which you responded.
To reiterate the thread:
Desslock wrote: "Independence War 2, unfortunately, was
a gigantic commercial bomb in the U.S. It only sold a handful
of copies."
You replied: "Yep. Just like the first one was actually."
In other words, you made the claim that IWar 1 was also a
commercial bomb in the US. Martyn responded by counter-
claiming that the original IWar was not a commercial bomb
according to sales figures which he attributed to Particle
Systems, and which I later noted were not wholly inconsis-
tent with the NPD figures posted by Desslock.
Your non sequiter post simply repeated the established sales
figures for IWar 2, which imply nothing about the success or
failure of IWar 1. In short, you were unable to support your
claim that IWar 1 was a commercial failure with any evidence,
and resorted to an ad hominem attack on Martyn for calling
you on it. Semantic content: zero.
Perhaps you meant to imply that the 84000 units (US sales)
for IWar 1 + constituted a "commercial bomb." However I
note that this number is higher than either Desslock's or your
own sales figures for BC3K v2, by almost 100 percent.
> If you're not smart enough to connect the dots
> (wrt to the subject matter), don't blame me. It ranks right up there
> with pointing out spelling errors
Finally, you compounded your error by the above quoted
and completely uncalled for ad hominem attack on me.
Don't bother to apologize to me for trying to insult my
intelligence because I won't accept your apology anyway.
--milo
http://www.starshatter.com
DocScorpio
milo <mi...@starshatter.com> wrote in message
news:d4d78839.0201...@posting.google.com...
> Skeksis <n...@na.com> wrote in message
news:<Xns919D36CE4E0Bau...@199.45.49.11>...
> > "milo" <mi...@home.com> wrote in
> > news:SWf28.43059$B61.14...@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com:
> >
> > Another factor here maybe the need for specialized controls. I am sure
> > that there are some hardy and intrepid gamers who tackled space sims
with
> > a mouse and keyboard or a basic joystick but all space sims seem to be
> > tailored towards a HOTAS arrangement or a HOTAS and rudder pedal
> > arrangement and it is a possibility that the average gamer was
intimidated
> > by the apparent complexity of that kind of control set up.
>
> Another form of abstraction barrier between the player and
> the game, and perhaps the easiest to surmount. Quite a few
> new space-sims and space-RTS type games are moving toward
> a mouse control system.
>
"sequel" to Archimedean Dynasty. I didn't buy the game (for obvious
reasons), but from the AquaNox forum, I gather it controls like an FPS
(using a mouse) rather than having a "flight" model. I don't believe that
the release version even gave you the option of using a stick. Maneuvering
is no longer a factor, since all subs can instantly turn on their axes to
target you, i.e., you can't get on anyone's six. The AD fans are none too
happy with AN, which appears to be a heavily dumbed-down, completely
on-rails FPS with gorgeous graphics (and reputably some of the worse voice
acting ever heard): a far cry from the original, inspired AD.
a
>On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:16:59 -0500, "Derek Smart (3000AD)" <dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> wrote:
>
>>>200,000 copies of IWar and its expansion, world-wide, certainly sounds
>>>plausible
>>
>>I'm not sure about that. The European market, especially for a niche
>>game, is not that large.
>
>61 copies?
Yep, in October a toady queried the status of their preorderwith BMT,
and then posted the email they got from BMT which went "I have added
your order to the 60 other preorders for BCM"!!!
Bill Huffman
news:q04q4u8r1v2d785sm...@4ax.com...
> Anyone else?
He could be. Some evidence that he is on drugs is that on a number of occasions
right-out-of-the-blue he has claimed to be drug free.
Mr. Kevin-Smart, since you're drug free, could you please comment on
specifically which drugs you never take?
When?
>On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:14:10 GMT, "milo" <mi...@home.com> wrote:
>
>>> You must be fucking smoking some heavy shit. IWar2 hasn't even sold
>>> 20K units in the US, let alone 200K *anywhere* worldwide.
>>
>>Fine. Except that's not what he said. Read it again.
>
>I know what he wrote. I know what I wrote. My post still stands as it
>was originally written. If you're not smart enough to connect the dots
>(wrt to the subject matter), don't blame me. It ranks right up there
>with pointing out spelling errors.
That reminds me of my .sig...
--
"Remember the rule about NOT having ANY spelling errors in thread
subjects?" - Derek Smart, 3000ad.com forum
When?
>On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:56:10 -0500, "Desslock"
><dess...@THISCOMESOUTsympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>As others have stated, the reference was to the Iwar series prior to IW2,
>
>And I lumped all of the IWar titles into that 200K figure
Yup, sure you did. "IWar2" sure sounds like "all of the IWar titles".
It's "system" versus "install" all over again.
Derek Smart (3000AD)
>Non sequiter. Your post as it was originally written does
>not contribute to the logical chain of the thread in which
>it was posted. I suspect that you must realize this yourself,
>since you removed the relevant portions of the thread,
>including your own erroneous statement, before replying
>to my post. Don't bother trying to claim a complex killfile
>related accident, because the relevant statements were all
>in my post to which you responded.
Rubbish
When I post, I usually only include snippets that I am responding to.
If you or anyone else can't keep up with the conversation flow, don't
blame me.
I was responding to specific entry and that is *exactly* what I
quoted. Here is the flow again, for those who are slow upstairs (or
just point for the hell of it. Like you, for instance)
>and resorted to an ad hominem attack on Martyn for calling
>you on it.
And if you actually read his posts in this thread, you'd see why I
responded the way I did and subsequently plonked him.
But no, lets skip those little details, why don't we. Then you talk
about me doing convenient snipping. You're such an ass sometimes and I
wonder why I even post to you anymore. Its not bad enough that you've
also resorted to following me around the net (yes, I saw your posts
over at QT3 - a forum you have *never* been to, prior to me showing
up there), you have to resort to posting unfounded nonsense.
>Perhaps you meant to imply that the 84000 units (US sales)
>for IWar 1 + constituted a "commercial bomb."
It wasn't an implication. It is exactly what I was refering to. And
you KNOW that
Desslock posted 61K units (from NPD). Someone said 84K units (or
somesuch). Either way, that is a *flop* considering the scope and
costings for that particular project.
>However I note that this number is higher than either Desslock's or your
>own sales figures for BC3K v2, by almost 100 percent.
I don't have a clue what your point it - but once you find it, let me
know.
Desslock :
>Independence War 2, unfortunately, was a gigantic commercial bomb in the
>U.S. It only sold a handful of copies.
Me:
>Yep. Just like the first one was actually.
Martyn:
>Absolute crap. The IW series pre-IW2 sold over 200,000 copies - the
>developer reported it some time ago. Surveys like NPD severely
>underestimate sales.
Me:
>You must be fucking smoking some heavy shit. IWar2 hasn't even sold
>20K units in the US, let alone 200K *anywhere* worldwide.
Now, WHICH part did you miss, exactly?
*plonk*
Dick Garage
<dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> wrote:
>Now, WHICH part did you miss, exactly?
>
>*plonk*
LOL! he made a fool of your lies so you plonked him. Glad to see you havent
changed a bit ya bastard.
--
" I can't help it if I possess a vastly superior intellect
and skillset than most. Its in my nature."" In case you were
wondering, yes, I'm a fucking genius.""I MADE ME."
"Know your place and BOW YOUR HEAD damnit!""..
remember, my comments are NOT designed to win
anyone over. I am me.
-Derek Smart, VE3D comment board, December 2001.
Rico
"Derek Smart (3000AD)" <dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> wrote in message
>
> >Absolute crap. The IW series pre-IW2 sold over 200,000 copies - the
> >developer reported it some time ago. Surveys like NPD severely
> >underestimate sales.
>
> Me:
>
> >You must be fucking smoking some heavy shit. IWar2 hasn't even sold
> >20K units in the US, let alone 200K *anywhere* worldwide.
>
I don't think this kind of argument helps bolster your case, taco boy.
Pretty clear you made a goof and aren't man enough to own up to it.
Pitbull
<dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> wrote:
>Martyn:
>
>>Absolute crap. The IW series pre-IW2 sold over 200,000 copies - the
>>developer reported it some time ago. Surveys like NPD severely
>>underestimate sales.
>
>Me:
>
>>You must be fucking smoking some heavy shit. IWar2 hasn't even sold
>>20K units in the US, let alone 200K *anywhere* worldwide.
>
>Now, WHICH part did you miss, exactly?
>
>*plonk*
Geez Derek! Don't you even read your own posts?
JC
>
> Desslock :
>
>>Independence War 2, unfortunately, was a gigantic commercial bomb in the
>>U.S. It only sold a handful of copies.
>
> Me:
>
>>Yep. Just like the first one was actually.
>
> Martyn:
>
>>Absolute crap. The IW series pre-IW2 sold over 200,000 copies - the
>>developer reported it some time ago. Surveys like NPD severely
>>underestimate sales.
>
> Me:
>
>>You must be fucking smoking some heavy shit. IWar2 hasn't even sold
>>20K units in the US, let alone 200K *anywhere* worldwide.
>
> Now, WHICH part did you miss, exactly?
>
I think it's the part where you repost evidence that proves you're a
complete and utter moron. Damn Derek, we knew you were stupid, but not
that stupid.
Skeksis
news:N5638.29247$iP.219...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com:
> The AD fans are none too happy with AN, which appears to be a heavily
> dumbed-down, completely on-rails FPS with gorgeous graphics (and
> reputably some of the worse voice acting ever heard): a far cry from
> the original, inspired AD.
If the demo was any indication of the final product..... OMG what a let
down. :(
Skeksis
Skeksis
news:d4d78839.0201...@posting.google.com:
> First, thanks for the cogent and detailed reply!
Yer welcome. :)
> I have a friend who says that the problem with science fiction
> (in particular, latter day Star Trek) is too much science and
> not enough fiction. Science, technology, and realism should
> be the springboard for compelling human drama, not an easy way
> to wrap up an episode after the final commercial break.
I agree and STTNG took it to rediculous levels with their reliance on
'bullshittium' (that mysterious new particle emission or element every
week).
> You mention moving away from a basic dogfighting model of
> gameplay as being a problem. I've been thinking about this
> since reading your post, looking at my own game and trying
> to improve its design. The interesting thing is, the basic
> dogfighting model of flight and space sims is part of the
> problem in the first place.
In some ways I thank Mr. Lucas for that.... Star Wars was popular and how
many people wanted to be Luke Skywalker? Admit it out there...I'm
counting hands... ;)
> When I compare the combat mechanics of a 3D space sim with
> those of a typical 3D FPS, I notice a few key differences
> (NOTE, this is for comparison only, I am NOT saying that
> space sims "should" be like FPS games):
Sometimes it is fun though. ;)
> 1. Movement - the obvious one. Guiding a spacecraft with
> six degrees of freedom (or even only 4DOF) is fundamentally
> more abstract than using mouselook to move a Quake character
> around.
I foudn the control system in D3 to be more than acceptible but then I
have a HOTAS set up...actually if you count u pthe parts of worn out
and/or upgrades hardware I have 3.5 . ;)
> 2. Speed / Acceleration - space sims have high speeds with
> low acceleration, FPS have the opposite. The result is that
> it can take a long time to chase down your target in space
> in contrast with running after a typical target in an FPS.
Somewhat similar to submarines. Something that cannot help here is that
the perception of speed is radically different as well. In space what is
there to measure your speed against? Right... Now in an Axis research
facility whilesome big, ugly, electronically enhanced surgically altered
ass-mashers is after you, how fast does the near by scenery appear to go
by... Riiiight.... ;)
> 3. Targeting - space sims require the player to solve complex
> equations of motion to land a laser shot from one moving ship
> onto a moving target. Space sim HUDs use complex symbology
> to help the player compute the proper lead angle. In an FPS,
> if the gun cross is on the target, you will hit it. If you
> use a BFG-type weapon, you will hit almost any target on the
> screen.
I suspect that space sims are using the more complex HUDs to try to brige
the gap between reality and entertainment (nothing wrong with this if it
doesn';t go too far) and are using the fighter jet HUD model as a way to
do that. One thing that might help some of these games is the ability for
the user to turn on or off what they want to see in the HUD during their
game. Unfortunately that would add antoher level of complexity to this,
wouldn;t it. :(
> 4. Environment - space sims have no environment. All ships
> are effectively in one big room with nothing to hide behind.
> FPS games require the player to navigate through a complex,
> occluded 3D environment, and to use that environment in order
> to solve gameplay problems. Even when there is not a single
> enemy on the screen, the player will have to decide to turn
> left or right, to open this door or that one, etc..
Several space sims have had missions in asteroid fields. FS in the first
that comes to mind, particularly the mission where you had to destroy
asteroids so the capital ship could get through.
I suppose thato ne could create a more 'tactical' level of sim that would
allow players to 'fly' within structures, gravity fields, asteroid
clusters, and so on but after awhile that might seem too artificial. I
have to admit that I like how Allegiance handled this (I haven' played in
a while) by having connected modes with different resources which would
add a level of stragety to the game. I also do recall a few times being
bounced by some clever pilot who was hiding in the radar shadow of an
asteroid on low sensors to see what came by. He saw me, I didn;t see him.
;)
> Even at their most basic, the core gameplay mechanics of
> space sims are far more *abstract* than those of other
> action oriented games. This abstraction may make it harder
> for many people to become immersed in the game.
Agreed. Also it doesn't help that a lot of would be space simmers are
looking for Star Wars and not Babylon 5 (die Sierra, die).
> That's probably partly why Freelancer and Earth and Beyond
> are moving toward simpler mouse-driven control schemes and
> combat rules.
<sigh> I *like* using a HOTAS. ;)
> Another form of abstraction barrier between the player and
> the game, and perhaps the easiest to surmount. Quite a few
> new space-sims and space-RTS type games are moving toward
> a mouse control system.
One thing that may also help in this area is that many new sticks are a
compact HOTAS and may not seem as intimidating as the traditional two-
piece take up half your desktop versions. ;) Personally I *like* the two
peice systems, I have the stick on the right of the keyboard and the
throttle on the left and do not like the single units. I find twist grips
to be a big pain in the.,..wrist. This is personal preference though.
Also as long as the programming software becomes simpler to use, more
people will be willing to overcome the initial learning curve. Did you
ever see the old Thrustmaster programming interface? Lut us just say that
familiarity with BASIC or some other computer language was an asset. ;)
> In another post in this thread, Desslock mentioned Diablo (and
> Baldur's Gate) as resurrecting the RPG genre that was routinely
> seen to be collapsing into a niche market. How was Diablo
> able to perform the apparently impossible - i.e. make an RPG
> accessible to the mainstream gamer? Well, mostly by simplifying
> the gameplay mechanics away from the hardcore stats and exper-
> ience based RPGs that many people found stultifying. Is that
> "dumbing the game down"? Perhaps.
Some people would argue that it is. I have been an RPG player since 1975
and I find that I do not want to manipulate an entire party *or* their
stats *or* their inventories while I am playing an RPG on the computer. I
want is simple, fast, visually satisfying, and a good story line. I will
save the minutae for the game table where having multiple players makes
the work of running a party seem less like work.
> But what I want to know is: what made the mainstream audience
> decide to give the RPG genre a second chance? Positive reviews
> in game magazines? Advance press at E3? The fact that it was a
> Blizzard game? Expensive TV commercials? Proper planetary
> alignment? All of the above?
I would say none of the above really. I doubt that Diablo was such a
success just because it was a Blizzard product (not to diminish Blizzard
here, they picked the right thing to develop at the time which is no small
feat). The game was
A: Simple
B: Fast
C: Pretty (things have gotten better in that regad though)
D: Word of mouth
Never mind that Diablo was compared by many who were already knowledgeable
about such things to NetHack and Moria, compared to Diablo these are
truely arcane and remote.
If Blizzard had made the multiplayer of Diablo a subscription service I
suspect that Diablo might not have tanked but would not have been as
popular. By making that free, and by allowing players to play over a LAN
they made some good choices here. Could any company set up free servers
for their players? Probably not, that gets expensive fast. I also think
that by introducing alot of simplicity despite the cries of outrage frmo
the experiences gamers, Diablo was able to appeal to a wider range of
players who now are more experienced and willing to put the time into Pool
of Radiance, Baldur's Gate, and so on. I suspect that if at some point
there is a mass space fighter battle with a character one can identify
more with than a 9 year old in the next Star Wars cycle popular interest
in space sims will pick up again.
> http://www.brat-designs.com/breed1.html
Thanks. :) I will be taking a look at starshatter.com as well. :)
Skeksis
Graham Thurlwell
<Td...@jkdcomp.demon.co.uk> says...
<snip>
> There is still more than enough room for an a space-sim based on up to
> date scientific information and an accurate local stellar map.
Elite 4. If that bombs in Europe, the genre's dead. ;-)
--
Graham 'Jades' Thurlwell
Jades' FFE Site: http://www.jades.org/ffe.htm
The best Frontier First Encounters site on the net
Graham Thurlwell
fly135 <fly...@hotmail.com> says...
<snip>
> Space sims will never do well until they get multiplayer right. Jumpgate
> had a chance but blew it trying trying to make another ridiculously boring
> space trading RPG.
Personally, I think that Jumpgate didn't sell well because it was
multiplayer only. Multiplayer is virtually a non-issue in places like
the UK where broadband takeup is virtually zero.
Graham Thurlwell
(3000AD) <dsm...@NOSPAMFORMEpobox.com> says...
<snip>
> I'm not sure about that. The European market, especially for a niche
> game, is not that large.
IIRC, the UK on its own is the third largest market in the world.
ELSPA's site should have the proper numbers. In any case, space sims
sell best in Europe, especially the freeform ones.
Tom Dawkins
Thurlwell <ja...@jades.org> writes
>In article <nMqwMBAr...@jkdcomp.demon.co.uk>, Tom Dawkins
><Td...@jkdcomp.demon.co.uk> says...
>
><snip>
>
>> There is still more than enough room for an a space-sim based on up to
>> date scientific information and an accurate local stellar map.
>
>Elite 4. If that bombs in Europe, the genre's dead. ;-)
>
retire. I hope they are not being too cautious with it, and are too
concerned about it living up to expectations. I'd love to know the min.
system spec for it so I can budget for the new computer I presume will
be required to run it.
--
Tom Dawkins
Desslock
really epitomizes flash over substance.
Desslock
--
Desslock's RPG News: http://desslock.gamespot.com
New Gaming Industry Editorials on Fridays
"Skeksis" <n...@na.com> wrote in message
news:Xns919F33E9B99CFau...@199.45.49.11...
milo
> On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 02:46:36 GMT, "milo" <mi...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >Non sequiter. Your post as it was originally written does
> >not contribute to the logical chain of the thread in which
> >it was posted. I suspect that you must realize this yourself,
> >since you removed the relevant portions of the thread,
> >including your own erroneous statement, before replying
> >to my post.
>
> If you or anyone else can't keep up with the conversation flow, don't
> blame me.
Non sequiter. You are the only poster that has demonstrated
any difficulty in following this thread.
> You're such an ass sometimes and I
> wonder why I even post to you anymore.
Ahh. Personal insults. Yes, I'm sure that will help you prove
whatever your point happens to be at the moment.
> you have to resort to posting unfounded nonsense.
Inaccurate. My arguments have been clearly stated and
supported with the evidence posted in this thread.
> >Perhaps you meant to imply that the 84000 units (US sales)
> >for IWar 1 + constituted a "commercial bomb."
>
> It wasn't an implication. It is exactly what I was refering to. And
> you KNOW that
*No one* could possibly know that when you said:
"IWar2 hasn't even sold 20K units in the US"
you really meant:
"IWar1 and its add-on have sold 84K units in the US
and an unknown number of additional units worldwide
and that constitutes a flop."
You know, it is really difficult to have a discussion with you
when your statements don't touch reality at any two contiguous
points.
> Desslock posted 61K units (from NPD). Someone said 84K units (or
> somesuch). Either way, that is a *flop* considering the scope and
> costings for that particular project.
>
> >However I note that this number is higher than either Desslock's or your
> >own sales figures for BC3K v2, by almost 100 percent.
>
> I don't have a clue what your point it - but once you find it, let me
> know.
Really? I thought my implication was fairly clear. Let's
see how many other posters can put two and two together.
> Desslock :
> >Independence War 2, unfortunately, was a gigantic commercial bomb in the
> >U.S. It only sold a handful of copies.
>
> [Derek - post 1]:
> >Yep. Just like the first one was actually.
>
> Martyn:
> >Absolute crap. The IW series pre-IW2 sold over 200,000 copies - the
> >developer reported it some time ago. Surveys like NPD severely
> >underestimate sales.
>
> [Derek - post 2]:
> >You must be fucking smoking some heavy shit. IWar2 hasn't even sold
> >20K units in the US, let alone 200K *anywhere* worldwide.
>
> Now, WHICH part did you miss, exactly?
The part where your second statement had anything whatsoever
to do with either Martyn's or your own first statement.
Normally when people try to prove a point, they establish an
argument by stating a series of related premises which (if found to
be true) will support the desired conclusion. That might be another
strategy that you could try next time you want to convince someone
of something...
> *plonk*
...Or you could just stick your fingers in your ears and declare
yourself the winner. I'm sure that would work with some people.
Good day to you, sir.
--milo
http://www.starshatter.com
milo
> > those of a typical 3D FPS, I notice a few key differences
> > (NOTE, this is for comparison only, I am NOT saying that
> > space sims "should" be like FPS games):
>
> Sometimes it is fun though. ;)
>
> > low acceleration, FPS have the opposite. The result is that
> > it can take a long time to chase down your target in space
> > in contrast with running after a typical target in an FPS.
>
> Somewhat similar to submarines. Something that cannot help here is that
> the perception of speed is radically different as well. In space what is
> there to measure your speed against?
Good point. Of course, you can always turn on the old
"space dust"... But it's not as visceral as hurtling through
desert canyons at mach five.
> > 3. Targeting - space sims require the player to solve complex
> > equations of motion to land a laser shot from one moving ship
> > onto a moving target. Space sim HUDs use complex symbology
> > to help the player compute the proper lead angle.
>
> I suspect that space sims are using the more complex HUDs to try to brige
> the gap between reality and entertainment (nothing wrong with this if it
> doesn';t go too far) and are using the fighter jet HUD model as a way to
> do that. One thing that might help some of these games is the ability for
> the user to turn on or off what they want to see in the HUD during their
> game. Unfortunately that would add antoher level of complexity to this,
> wouldn;t it. :(
Actually, lead computation is a fundamental problem, not an artificial
one. As long as you have two ships moving at high speeds and a
straight projectile moving with a velocity on the same order of mag-
nitude, you have to worry about leading the target. Don't aim at the
duck, aim in front of the duck.
The only way to remove this complexity is to slow down the ships
or speed up the shots so that the shooter can safely ignore target
motion when aiming at the target. That works well in movies, but
not so well in 3D simulations.
> > 4. Environment - space sims have no environment. All ships
> > are effectively in one big room with nothing to hide behind.
> > FPS games require the player to navigate through a complex,
> > occluded 3D environment, and to use that environment in order
> > to solve gameplay problems. Even when there is not a single
> > enemy on the screen, the player will have to decide to turn
> > left or right, to open this door or that one, etc..
>
> Several space sims have had missions in asteroid fields. FS in the first
> that comes to mind, particularly the mission where you had to destroy
> asteroids so the capital ship could get through.
Sure, but that's not really the same kind of navigational
problem as you have in trying to find your way through a
building you've never been in before as in an FPS game...
> I suppose thato ne could create a more 'tactical' level of sim that would
> allow players to 'fly' within structures, gravity fields, asteroid
> clusters, and so on but after awhile that might seem too artificial.
This just brings you back to Descent, does it not?
Actually, Descent-in-space could be really cool
as a shooter.
> > That's probably partly why Freelancer and Earth and Beyond
> > are moving toward simpler mouse-driven control schemes and
> > combat rules.
>
> <sigh> I *like* using a HOTAS. ;)
Me too. I think it would be a mistake to remove joystick support.
But, on occasion I really enjoy setting the Starshatter flight model
to "Arcade" and just going at targets using mouselook. It's good
to have both options I think.
> > In another post in this thread, Desslock mentioned Diablo (and
> > Baldur's Gate) as resurrecting the RPG genre that was routinely
> > seen to be collapsing into a niche market. How was Diablo
> > able to perform the apparently impossible - i.e. make an RPG
> > accessible to the mainstream gamer? Well, mostly by simplifying
> > the gameplay mechanics away from the hardcore stats and exper-
> > ience based RPGs that many people found stultifying. Is that
> > "dumbing the game down"? Perhaps.
>
> Some people would argue that it is. I have been an RPG player since 1975
> and I find that I do not want to manipulate an entire party *or* their
> stats *or* their inventories while I am playing an RPG on the computer. I
> want is simple, fast, visually satisfying, and a good story line. I will
> save the minutae for the game table where having multiple players makes
> the work of running a party seem less like work.
Fair enough. I don't have much experience with CRPGs except for
NetHack, and I don't think that really counts...
> > But what I want to know is: what made the mainstream audience
> > decide to give the RPG genre a second chance? Positive reviews
> > in game magazines? Advance press at E3? The fact that it was a
> > Blizzard game? Expensive TV commercials? Proper planetary
> > alignment? All of the above?
>
> I would say none of the above really. I doubt that Diablo was such a
> success just because it was a Blizzard product (not to diminish Blizzard
> here, they picked the right thing to develop at the time which is no small
> feat).
I wonder. By analogy, Westwood have been able to drum up a
fair horde of fans for Earth-n-Beyond based solely on the strength
of their brand name.
> The game was
> A: Simple
> B: Fast
> C: Pretty (things have gotten better in that regad though)
Absolutely. But how did anybody know that before playing it?
How do you get past the Green Eggs and Ham mentality?
"Please not another space-sim! I do not like them in a plane
or in a ship on on a train! I do not like them Sam-I-Am!"
> D: Word of mouth
Maybe I need to read "The Anatomy of Buzz". ;-)
> Thanks. :) I will be taking a look at starshatter.com as well. :)
Cool. Feel free to drop by the forums and say hi!
--milo
http://www.starshatter.com
Lemming
Yeah, that's my excuse for waiting to upgrade too.
--
Lemming
Curiosity *may* have killed Schrödinger's cat.
fly135
"milo" <mi...@home.com> wrote in message
news:_OG38.49068$B61.16...@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com...
>
> Actually, lead computation is a fundamental problem, not an artificial
> one. As long as you have two ships moving at high speeds and a
> straight projectile moving with a velocity on the same order of mag-
> nitude, you have to worry about leading the target. Don't aim at the
> duck, aim in front of the duck.
>
> The only way to remove this complexity is to slow down the ships
> or speed up the shots so that the shooter can safely ignore target
> motion when aiming at the target. That works well in movies, but
> not so well in 3D simulations.
>
A lead angle indicator is a simple and easy to use solution. The nice thing
about the indicator is that is allows the target (which may be you) to use
evasive manuvers to avoid hits. I really liked the combat in Terminus
better than IWar2 (although it's good too), because of the use of the lead
angle indicator vs. the auto aiming in IW2.
milo
news:2EH38.7268$Fh4.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> "milo" <mi...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:_OG38.49068$B61.16...@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com...
> >
> > Actually, lead computation is a fundamental problem, not an artificial
> > one. As long as you have two ships moving at high speeds and a
> > straight projectile moving with a velocity on the same order of mag-
> > nitude, you have to worry about leading the target. Don't aim at the
> > duck, aim in front of the duck.
> >
> > The only way to remove this complexity is to slow down the ships
> > or speed up the shots so that the shooter can safely ignore target
> > motion when aiming at the target. That works well in movies, but
> > not so well in 3D simulations.
> A lead angle indicator is a simple and easy to use solution.
Yes, it is simple and easy to use for you or I or anyone who is
used to flying in a space combat sim or a military combat flight
sim. That's because we have practiced this skill and learned
how to use the HUD indicators to aim at a moving target from
a moving platform.
But for Joe Average Gamer, it is an extra level of complexity
that needs to be mastered before he can have fun with the game.
> The nice thing
> about the indicator is that is allows the target (which may be you) to use
> evasive manuvers to avoid hits. I really liked the combat in Terminus
> better than IWar2 (although it's good too), because of the use of the lead
> angle indicator vs. the auto aiming in IW2.
Sure. Part of the fun of any game is first mastering a skill
challenge and then learning to use that skill to advantage.
Leading the target is a characteristic skill challenge in combat
flight sims. If you take that skill away, it feels less like a sim.
Someone who has mastered the complexity of Falcon 4 or
Janes F18 is not going to be happy playing Ace Combat
for long. But there are a great many people who will never
be able to master Falcon 4, for whom the gameplay of Ace
Combat is just right.
The question is, can someone design a game that will please
both sets of people?
--milo
http://www.starshatter.com
Dick Garage
>I don't think this kind of argument helps bolster your case, taco boy.
>Pretty clear you made a goof and aren't man enough to own up to it.
Hell he has spent how many years now blaming Take2 for his original fiasco years
ago. Derek has zero credibility with anyone except himself.
Dick Garage
>> *plonk*
>
>...Or you could just stick your fingers in your ears and declare
>yourself the winner. I'm sure that would work with some people.
That's been Derek's method for years now. That's why he's so entertaining.
Bill Huffman
"Dick Garage" <di...@garage.invalid> wrote in message
news:u4up525...@corp.supernews.com...
> On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:55:43 -0500, "Rico" <Troop...@bugplanet.com> wrote:
>
> >I don't think this kind of argument helps bolster your case, taco boy.
> >Pretty clear you made a goof and aren't man enough to own up to it.
>
> Hell he has spent how many years now blaming Take2 for his original fiasco
years
> ago. Derek has zero credibility with anyone except himself.
Dan Brooks, how about with you? Do you still believe that Derek has a PhD from a
renowned accredited university? Oops how about that he has a bona fide degree?
Do you think he even has a bachelor degree? Do you believe that the freight
train is coming? Are you eagerly looking forward to it? Do you think that the
freight train was derailed or never even on the tracks? Do you think that he
will spare you when the freight train arrives? (He said no one will be spared
but I guess maybe Derek considers you a nobody.) When do you believe that he
will release multiplayer for BCM? When do you think he will release his Xbox
game?
Krud
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 20:44:44 GMT, "milo" <mi...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >> *plonk*
> >
> >...Or you could just stick your fingers in your ears and declare
> >yourself the winner. I'm sure that would work with some people.
>
> That's been Derek's method for years now. That's why he's so entertaining.
Why does BCM have a permanent spot in the "most recent patches" section of the
Gamespot web site, but I-War 2 (which got much better reviews) does not? I
don't think that's very fair, do you? I think Gamespot is biased towards
Derek since he threatened to sue them.
-Krud
Crayfish
news:chfu4usibntbj7sj3...@4ax.com...
I think I'll risk upgrading before Elite IV comes out. Well it could be
some time yet after all. I hope less emphasis is put on the graphics and
more on the physics and economics. Current GeForce level graphics would be
fine by me if they were backed up by a full simulation of a populated area
of space in the Milky Way. I'd love to be able to land my Cobra mkIII in a
future representation of my home town, look up at the night sky to see the
familiar constellations, then select one of the stars I see and bring up its
system data and hyperspace travel time.
The imagination can fill in so much that graphics never could.
I think Elite IV will be *huge* in Europe if it is; a) Acceptably bug free.
b) Strongly branded as 'Elite'. c) Fun to play.
--
Crayfish
Bill Huffman
"Bill Huffman" <bhuf...@REMOVE-THISsan.rr.com> wrote in message
news:BzQ38.14187$H5.65...@typhoon.san.rr.com...
I forgot another good one. Dan, when do you think the Battlecruiser MOVIE is
coming out? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA